Today at Reader's Corner, Ilya Ponomarenko, author of the new book, I Will Show You How It Was, A Story of Wartime Keith.I'm Bob Kustra.Welcome to Reader's Corner.
In late February, 2022, a series of missiles and rocket strikes began falling on Ukraine as the Russian military barreled over the border and fanned out across the country.They quickly took Chernobyl, Kherson, and Mariupol.
But in Kiev, Ukraine's capital, the Russians sustained heavy losses and their blitz failed as they faced overwhelming resistance.
The interview today is unusual because, first of all, it's an interview with a Ukrainian reporter on the ground in the middle of war.Consequently, his answers are longer than we are normally used to hear at Reader's Corner.
But I felt, given his wartime background and this heart-wrenching memoir, it was important to let Ilya Ponomarenko speak at length.The book he has written is called I Will Show You How It Was. the story of wartime Kiev.
In the interview you're about to hear, he will refer to yesterday in reference to the recent bombing of the Children's Hospital in Kiev, which is how I lead off this interview because I saw no way to address this book without first addressing the latest casualties and violence in Ukraine.
Ilya Ponomarenko, thank you for joining us at Reader's Corner all the way from Bucha, Ukraine.
Hello, thank you very much for having me.I'm really glad I'm here.
I read your book and was so impressed but somewhat distracted from it after I read it when just recently a children's hospital was bombed.I just feel it's so important that perhaps we begin there and you you address your reaction to that.
Uh, you're in Bucha, which, uh, could be called maybe a suburb of, of, of Kiev.Uh, it's, uh, it's in the Oblast area and you can, you can, you can explain that.
But, um, we are just so concerned over here about what is happening on a day to day basis in Ukraine.I wonder if, if you have any comments about this hypersonic missile that takes us into a whole different ballgame, so to speak.
Well, of course, what happened yesterday was a terrible tragedy.And that was something that literally all of Kiev and the entire Kiev metropolitan area had literally
was listening to and hearing these explosions, even in my place, which could be very correctly called a northwestern suburb of Kiev, a quiet, small town, very beautiful, pretty rich.
But nonetheless, even in this quiet place, which has seen more than enough suffering and misery, we heard the explosions, we heard the blasts.
Pretty much all across Ukraine we have something called mobile air defense groups, which is actually military guys with air defense guns trying to shoot down drones or missiles.And this is what we heard in our place too.
So yesterday morning that happened before noon was a terrible tragedy that comes from
An extremely evil man who is so zealous, who is so eager to hold on to his power, who is so absolutely obsessed with this goal of having a revenge on Ukraine and exterminating Ukraine as the sign of his lifetime humiliation and the barrier to his absolute power.
And what happened was a war crime, but I interpret this as deliberate strike on the children's hospital, which is very famous and very large, I must say, in Kyiv and in Ukraine.I interpret it as a sort of a new phase in which Russia
is trying to enforce Ukrainian surrender, not through only attacks on infrastructure, power grids, heating, things of that kind, but also with direct and overt murder of civilians.
particularly the most vulnerable people, like sick children, that was a cancer hospital.
So I, I, I, I'm, I'm seriously afraid of the fact that they're switching to much more brutal, overt killings of civilians in order to enforce a Ukrainian surrender.That's what I get from this.
Well, I thought that's where we were going when I brought up the subject of, of this horrible attack on the children's hospital. yesterday, it does seem, as you say, to take the war to a new and even more dangerous level.
These supersonic or hypersonic missiles that Russia used to travel at over 6,000 miles an hour.And if our listeners are trying to figure out what that means from America, the Minuteman III is being tested in Florida right now.
And it takes 30 minutes to get that missile to Moscow. So it gives you some idea of how little opportunity there is to react.And I guess that's the point.
But let's pick up the conversation, Ilya, from your standpoint, hearing as you did recently that United States support had finally cleared Congress and additional arms were on their way.What does that do as a game changer?
And then we'll jump right back into the battle of Kiev in 2022?
When it comes to the supply of weapons, the US supply is absolutely essential.It's vital.Do not quote me on this.It's sort of my estimate that the United States is alone responsible for close to 65-75% of Ukraine's defense efforts in this war.
And it touches specific and crucial fields such as air defense, armored vehicles, maintenance, so many things that are so essential for Ukraine to have in full supply and to use all the time in battlefields and also in the defense of its home front too.
So when it comes to Uh, what happened yesterday and, uh, the terrible tragedy that happened yesterday.
It's in many ways, also an outcome of many months of, um, United States assistance, not coming to Ukraine because it touched upon air defense and air defense munitions. and interceptors for Patriot systems as well.
So in many ways what Russia is doing, not only in terms of Ukrainian air defense, but also on battlefields too, they are using this wind of opportunity that was created by this gap in essential U.S.supplies to Ukraine.
Unfortunately, what we have seen yesterday is the most brutal and the most bloodletting acts of Russian missile bombing campaign on the recent past, recent months.
They've been using this opportunity to knock out a lot of our energy grid, which is why in many ways we have, for instance, terrible internet connection problems. spend most of our days without electricity and we have to adapt to a new life to that.
But I believe that they are really switching to much more overt killing of civilians in terror bombings.
In many ways, because even despite all these months in extremely dire shortage of everything and anything in Ukrainian military, especially when it comes to air defense, even with
lots of problems with other regards when it comes to internal problems of Ukrainian military and also the support of our friends and bakers in the West.Even with this, Russian advances are way too slow, still way too slow.
Their spending of resources on these minimal advances in Ukrainian battlefields is way too high, unacceptably high, even to Russia.
So I believe, and I'm afraid, really afraid of this fact, is that they truly understand that they find it extremely and increasingly hard to defeat Ukraine in a conventional war on battlefields, provided that the West stays with Ukraine and the aid keeps flowing in.
So they switch to pure civilian terror.In terms of the most vulnerable people that we have, particularly kids, hospitals, I don't know what else could be it next in an attempt to enforce a surrender upon the Ukrainian society.
So I think that's what's happening in many regards.But I don't believe that they will be successful on this.They never work.Such things never work in history.
You're listening to Reader's Corner.My guest today is Ilya Ponomarenko, author of the book, I Will Show You How It Was, The Story of Wartime Kiev.
Well, when you talk about trying to convince the Ukrainian people that it's time for some kind of negotiation, you do mention in your book negotiations for peace.
And it's rather tough talk, because in a sense, as I remember it, you're somewhat critical of those who would try to give away Ukraine before the Ukrainian people have had a chance to defend it, so to speak.
The problem is that when it comes to negotiations with Russia, the problem is they are not looking for peace.They are not looking for a just ending of this war.When they talk about negotiations and peace, they mean only one thing.
the Ukrainian surrender, unconditional surrender, and Ukraine accepting all the terms that are incompatible with Ukraine existing as an independent nation, as an identity, and as a real country on its own.
The problem is that they are propagating these peace negotiations, so-called peace negotiations, for the sake of getting a short respite in the war that they dearly need.And not many people actually talk about this in media.
They need a respite, they will get it, and they will use this time to get back in better shape.
what was supposed to be sort of a peace, and finally the end of the war, and everybody getting rid of this headache, including in the West, will eventually get back as even worse war, as something even more disastrous, with Russia fixing mistakes and coming back in much better shape.
The thing is that Russians are really, and their propaganda machine, they are really smart about this, and they are really exploiting this tempting idea of you know, making Ukraine do certain concessions.
They're propagating this easiest way of going through this war.
They are propagating an easy choice for the Western leaders and for Western audiences, such as, again, make Ukraine surrender, make Ukraine cede some territories and accept, you know, abandoned membership of NATO and so on and so forth.
But the problem is, it's not about, you know, certain regions, it's not about a certain city. that Putin would get and thus calm down and leave Ukraine forever alone.The problem is it's about the entire Ukraine.
There's nothing that you can give to Putin.There's no promise that you can guarantee him such as, you know, no Ukraine in NATO.There won't be a moment when he says, okay, now I'm happy. I'm leaving Ukraine alone forever.It's about the entire Ukraine.
So there need to be no illusions.We are highly critical of this potential negotiations or concessions and talks, not because we're stubborn, not because we love this war.We don't.Nobody wants peace more than us Ukrainians.
But the problem is that the false prophets of peace are not promising peace.They are not here for peace.They are here for a shorter spite.
They are here for tempting the West into abandoning Ukraine in this way, because without this, they will not be able to win and get what they want.
So the only chance is to make Ukraine surrender and moreover make the West surrender and give up on Ukraine.That's the only way.
That's why we propagate against this tempting deal with the devil that will inevitably end up being a disaster, even worse disaster than what we have right now.
And if by some chance there ever was some kind of a surrender or the West conceded Then the next question for Russia is they're going to have to live with whatever has been created.
And what your book proves to me is that the indomitable spirit of the Ukrainian people will not quit just because the West might concede.And I want to move to your book now because I think it shows
It predicts in a way that the next phase of this war could well be guerrilla warfare in the cities where Ukrainians are still standing up.They haven't given up just because Russia and somebody else has decided to create a negotiated pact.
They're in this for keeps to guarantee their freedoms.So take us to the volunteer battalions called the Territorial Defense Battalion, which was created during the Kiev War, and what that does tell us about the spirit of the Ukrainian people.
I will simply give you several pieces of memories or examples that will explain to you everything that you need to know about Ukraine of the modern time.
You know, we were mentioning this terrible tragedy with the Russian bombing of Children's Hospital, and you could see pictures of very regular people from the streets, Kievans, coming to Ground Zero and actually helping the rescuers, you know, bringing food and water and clearing up, you know, debris.
Very regular people.And these pictures from yesterday, they really brought my memories back to the days of the Battle of Kiev in February, March 2022.When there was so much enthusiasm, you know, this outbreak of defiance towards evil.
this very powerful and very pure outburst of the best things about the human nature.This bravery, this unity, this absolute desire to do what is right and to believe what is right, no matter what.
So I remember these pictures of enthusiasm in the face of the moral danger and in the face of the doomsday.It really It's really very common for Ukrainians.They really do it in moments like this in the darkest times.
So that's why during the battle of Kiev, I will never forget this moment when we saw regular people in the streets of Kiev on the first days of February getting their rifles from the police, just in the streets of Kiev, very regular people just like you and me.
they were getting large boxes of Kalashnikov rifles and ammo to fight Russians, because we were expecting Russians to enter the northern parts of Kiev.And in those districts, people were getting ready to fight and preparing Molotov cocktails.
Those were regular people in the streets.They had all chances to flee, do whatever it takes, or to surrender.But nonetheless, and noted that many of those people were holding their rifles for the first time ever in their lives.
They were ready to fight and die for their own streets.Very regular people.Because this is what you do in moments like this.This is what Ukrainians do in moments like this.
Because people sometimes imagine this as sort of a, you know, Ukraine can surrender, Ukraine can accept even the most direst Russian conditions.
Russian occupation, but at the same time, you know, it's not the end of the world, you know, life goes on and stuff like that.But the problem is that it's not going to work.It doesn't work that way.
Over the last decade of this war with Russia that's happened since 2014, and then with the full-scale invasion, over this decade, Ukraine has changed so much.
On so many levels, culturally, linguistically, mentally, Ukrainian nation has changed very much in terms of understanding itself, understanding its pride, its dignity, its position in this state, its role as a driver of democracy, as the master of this country, as opposed to Russia and its authoritarian rule.
Ukrainians are so different from Russians and from the understanding of Russia as a state and the way Russia rules its people.
So we are absolutely incompatible, especially when it comes to the youth, especially when it comes to active, you know, part of the society.
So you were very correct to mention territorial defense units that were created all across Ukraine and Kiev, too, and they were joined by
Very, very regular people such as radio hosts, lots of my friends, journalists, taxi drivers, people from all corners of life, celebrities too, hip-hop stars, rock stars, singers, actors, many of them.
Because, you know, the entire idea of Ukrainians being different from Russia, having a country on its own, having its own life, its own way of life, its own understanding of itself as a nation, it is so absolutely necessary.
It's so basic in the Ukrainian society right now.And add to that lots of blood spilled by Russia, lots of grief caused by Russia.
And in the end, you get a country that is absolutely hostile to any sort of idea of getting back to being a Russian colony again.
We are so incompatible to so many levels, especially against the backdrop of the Russian full-scale invasion and everything that that happens over the last two, two and a half years.
It's simply incompatible, because you were also very correct to mention the possibility of guerrilla war.And people in the West, many observers, they are deeply mistaken, thinking that if movies and shakers enforced some sort of a
surrender upon Ukraine, theoretically speaking, the war will end.The war will not end.It will switch to armed resistance, guerrilla style.That's 100% so.
And admittedly, you know, my book was supposed, in the beginning, the working title of my book was supposed to be Guerrilla Radio.Because in the final days of the invasion, yeah, in the final days of the invasion, I was almost certain and many of us
here in Ukraine, journalists, I mean, in the community, we were almost certain about the war, switching to guerrilla war, unwinnable war for Russia in our case.
So we were almost sure to expect a large and winnable guerrilla war, popular resistance here in Ukraine.Things went in a pretty different way, but at the same time,
I give you 100% guarantee that Ukrainian people simply would not accept Russia, especially when it comes to what Russia is today, especially when it comes to everything that happened to so many places like Bucha, for instance, mass graves, terrible things.
And we must understand that we have no illusions when it comes to what's going to happen when Russians get back.
after all the blood that they have spilled in Ukraine, after all the anger, all the hatred that was nurtured against Ukrainians amid this war.So there need to be no illusions about the life in the enslaved Ukraine.That's going to be a nightmare.
We are still reading new books, published as late as last week, perhaps, about the heroic exploits of World War II veterans.And no doubt the war in Ukraine will continue to produce similar heroics as you describe in your book.
And that book is, I Will Show You How It Was, The Story of Wartime Kiev.Could you talk about the Ukrainian Air Force pilots?You call it our finest hour, which I assume is a tagline taken from Mr. Churchill.But please explain.
Yeah, of course.Old Grandpa Winston was with us in the final hours before the invasion in the in the most terrible months and days of the full-scale invasion.
Because, you know, in Ukraine, just like everywhere in the world, you know, the image, the, you know, romanticized, in many ways, image of Winston Churchill is extremely popular, too.You know, it's very telling.
It's something that, you know, human beings naturally strive to.They're looking for symbols.And we, back then, and even now, we needed symbols.We needed figures.
imagined to be strong decision makers, historical figures that are capable of historical decisions and capable of leading and taking responsibility and winning and leading people into battles.
So yeah, I remember even the moment when, I think that was the night before the invasion, like last hours of peace, and I'm having a book that pictures a really young Winston Churchill on its cover, and I was thinking that, yeah, you'll be with us.
You'll be the symbol of this very inspiring, dramatic, and tragic battle that's coming our way.
So through that, when it comes to the Ukrainian military, of course, we have sort of a consensus in the general population's way of thinking that the Ukrainian armed forces, and in general, the Ukrainian defense forces,
They demonstrated something that is historically incredible.As an organization, even though it has a lot of flaws, especially when it comes to the earliest weeks of the war, there was so much
enthusiasm, but so much of the military sacrifice, you know, with the mechanized units, with tank units, especially when it comes to the Battle of Kiev and many other places, with the regular military units of Ukraine being so overwhelmed by Russians when it comes to, you know, their numerical superiority.
Them being so outnumbered and outgunned, yet they were fighting bravely.They were inventing new ways of overperforming, new ways of cheating.They were using every single possibility to fight and defeat and kill and destroy.
Sometimes it's really hard to imagine so many people that are so loyal to their duty as people in the uniform, and people in the uniform who are facing one of the biggest and the most relentless war machines in human history that was approaching our cities.
Yet, mechanized units, pilots, they were doing something incredible.Because they were believing what was right.They stayed loyal.Hundreds of thousands of men and women, they were staying loyal.There was no massive deserting in ranks.
There were lots of occasions in which the military, of course, were all quickly overwhelmed by advancing Russian units, and they preferred to give up and surrender into captivity, of course.
But in general, you know, the Ukrainian military managed to survive the first strike, managed to stay operational, and they demonstrated, like, 500% of what a human being in that condition, in that situation, could be capable of.
There was a good example with Air Force pilots, because Air Force used to be one of the weakest branches of the Ukrainian Uniformed Forces, because we're talking about people who were flying increasingly obsolete aircraft.
We're talking about people who spend their lives serving for decades in a military force that is extremely obsolete, that is neglected, terribly underfunded.We're talking about young people, young pilots who
graduated military academies to become pilots, but they very quickly became distracted from actual military force because of money issues, because of terrible organizations.Yet, when the moment comes, many of my
friends that I know, I mean among young pilots, even though they were dismissed from service, they were actual civilians, yet they got back to their old military units and they had flight missions against Russians, who are technically, numerically, in so many regards, were absolutely overwhelmingly stronger than them.
We talk about old experienced pilots who essentially sacrificed themselves in dogfights against much more advanced Russian aircraft.
In many cases that was happening because they had to distract Russians from younger pilots so that younger pilots could leave airfields and regroup in other places.
And we have many examples of heroic stories of old officers who sacrificed themselves for the sake of saving young pilots and
You know, in general, the story of the Ukrainian battle, and the battle of Kiev especially, is an example of what is best about the human nature.
And in general, it's a story, in so many examples, of the people who do incredible things in the wake of the apocalypse, and moreover, by believing in what is right, by doing what they had to do.
by staying loyal to the best things that is out there about the human nature, about everyone's life.And by staying loyal to all those things, they win.Because you know the outcome of the Battle of Kiev.
And of course, the outcome of the Battle of Kiev is that the Ukrainians held off the Russians.And you have just documented so very well how that managed to happen.
I think you did refer in your book to a clever deception that the Ukrainian military employed at the outset of the Russian invasion, just another example of how creative the Ukrainians were in dealing with a force so much stronger and larger than it.
Yes, that was happening, particularly with the Air Force, that in the final, literally hours, in the final hours before the invasion, when we definitely knew that's going to happen, the Air Force had a sort of a maneuver in which they took all the aircraft up in the sky so that they wouldn't be destroyed on the ground by Russians in their missile attacks, because we expected that.
Same goes about, you know, the delegation of ground forces to It didn't work in all ways.We had quite a lot of tragedies with Russian missiles attacking and destroying and killing a lot of personnel.But still, there is always a way.
One of the biggest messages that I sent with my book, by describing all those things, by describing the atmosphere of the early weeks of the war was that there is always a way out.
There is always a way to go on, to win, to go on resisting without giving up.There is always a way to go.So, in many ways, so many inventive decisions taken from the Ukrainian willingness to fight, to hold on to its independence,
to keep their country in hands.So many decisions and so many moral choices too, positive moral choices towards, you know, fighting no matter the odds.
And you remember the atmosphere back then when, you know, essentially half of the world was burying Ukraine alive and competing when it comes to the chances of Ukraine surviving 48 or 72 hours.
And despite that, so many people simply did not agree with the fact that Ukraine was doomed.And they were doing all those little things and big things to overwhelm, to prevail over the evil, because we were enthusiastic.
We were having a sort of something that I call the enthusiasm of the doomed. like the final stand in many ways.Same goes about the very reason why Russians were defeated and had to withdraw from Kiev by late March 2022.
They were over-reliant, they were deeply mistaken when it comes to the possibility of Ukrainian resistance. They had little to no faith when it comes to Ukrainians willing to fight for their own country.
And they had little faith in terms of Ukraine being able to use the advantages that are given to it as the country, as the military power in its own country.
So that's, you know, we had, you know, the famous long convoys of Russians stretching to tens of kilometers through our forests from Chernobyl area, for instance, to outskirts of Kiev.
And here we go with Ukrainian mobile forces, ambushing this convoys and leaving them with no fuel at all. and killing the personnel, and essentially making tanks stop, and making the joint forces bogged down in the outskirts of Kiev.
That's why you hear a lot about Bucha, Irpin, Hostomel, because those are outskirts of Kiev, and densely populated settlements. And they were making Russians bow down in this brutal fighting in the settlements.Like I said, there is always a way out.
And in many ways, I'm really glad that my book comes in such time, because in many ways, the Battle of Kiev was and is a reminder to myself, too, that no matter what happens, no matter how dark it is, there's always a way out.
Always something that you can do if you are motivated to go on.And by staying on the good side, by believing what's right, by actually doing and by being ready to do what it takes, and by not giving up, there goes the way to victory.
And even very uneven and unexpected success, because, you know, we all remember what were his expectations back then.Apparently, this is the way life works.Believe in what is right, do what is right, and there'll be success.The life prevails.
I have time for one more question, Ilya, and it's about your personal safety.You opened up your book by sharing with your readers the fact that way back in 2014, when the Russians moved into Crimea, you were with the 72nd Mechanized Infantry Brigade
and you call it in your book the most dangerous two hours of your life.I don't think we need to get into that, but how do you feel about this today?How dangerous is your journalistic existence today in 2024?
Yeah, it's true that I've been doing this for nearly a decade, which is incredible because sometimes I think about this that, you know, for instance, I am 32 years old, which means that I have spent one third part of my life amid this war.
along with so many young people of my generation, one third of your entire life amid this.
And to us, and to myself in particular, this has been a lifetime project to report on the war, to participate in reforms, in making this country a better place and a stronger nation. To me, it feels like not simply a job, but a commitment, a duty.
A journalist in Ukraine is not working a job.He or she is serving a duty, especially when it comes to wartime.
And it's a very common thing for many active citizens here in Ukraine because, like I said, it's a lifetime project for so many in this country who are right now part of the military, who are working.
and providing volunteer aid, for instance, for the military who pay taxes, who collect money and help disabled veterans, who run charities too.So it's a national project for so many people.You perceive this as a natural state of things.
So when I worked as a journalist for pretty much a decade, I deliberately worked as a
war zone guy, also defense and security guy, who you would deploy with the military forces in Ukraine's east when the war was localized to Ukraine's east, such as the famous and the glorious 72nd Mechanized, which was one of the key forces in the Battle of Kiev.
So I find it very interesting that I spent most of my time with that brigade.Also have seen a lot of combat clashes with that brigade.
as a reporter, of course, and I continued my life in the Battle of Kiev in the new phase of the war with the same brigade that was defending Kiev successfully and heroically defending Kiev.
So I have seen quite a few extreme moments of this work, but I always believed that
what we do was right, what we do was useful, especially when it comes to working in English-language media outlets such as Kyiv Post, Kyiv Independent, that were telling the story of Ukraine to other nations and the public opinion of other nations.
When it comes to moments right now, I because of certain problems with my health, I kind of got out of, you know, working as a frontline journalist.
So I do not particularly go deployed to war zones anymore, partly because it's a big problematic thing right now because of a lot of bureaucracy, a lot of problems on the frontline.
And because of the fact that I do not currently work at some media, some official media outlet, which is a bit of a problem for your accreditation to work in the frontline.
So I mostly do things that I can do from home, for instance, or from home front, but I'm looking for opportunities to either get back to working as a journalist, as a war guy, or to join a military charity.
I was rejected from mobilization, from conscription several months ago because of health concerns.So I cannot be mobilized, but it doesn't mean that I do not have any service to serve for my country, for my people.
So I live, I work, I live my life in the town of Bucha, and I enjoyed living here.And I must say that we Ukrainians in the rear front, in these cities, we live a life that is as close to normal as it can possibly be, given the circumstances.
And we enjoy the greatest gift given to us by the Ukrainian military who win every day of freedom for us here, every single day.They spill blood, they do impossible things.
for us to go on enjoying more or less normal life, I would say, and for us to have another chance to support them and to adapt to life in wartime.So life is as normal as it can be here in Ukraine, in most of the cities.
And that's the greatest gift from the Ukrainian military to the entire nation.
One of the reasons why I wrote my book is that I wanted people, our friends beyond Ukraine, I wanted them to understand what was at stake, what was the potential price and what kind of absolute human heroism and what kind of incredible things happened
in the Battle of Kiev that Ukraine won what it has right now, more than two years after, still existing, still fighting, still having hope, changing a lot of things in the world, in Western politics too, and still having hope of having a better tomorrow after war, without war.
Well, you have certainly succeeded at that, Ilya.Thank you.I hope so.Yes, you've written a fine presentation of what you've been through these last few years.You call yourself a war guy.
I want to reassure our listeners that is exactly what this book is.It is a book written by a war guy. a guy who experienced wartime Kiev and still to this very day experiences it in Ukraine.
The name of the book is, I Will Show You How It Was, The Story of Wartime Kiev.The author, who we've been talking to, is Ilya Ponomarenko.Ilya, we wish you the very best, and thank you for writing the book, and glory to Ukraine.
Thank you, and glory to heroes.
Reader's Corner is presented by Boise State Public Radio News.The engineer for today's show is Eric Jones with production by Joel Wayne.I'm Bob Kustra.
Please join me next week as we talk to today's leading writers about the ideas and issues that helped shape our world at Reader's Corner.
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