Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of the Ribbon Book Club, a Dear America podcast.My name is Jen.
And we are here for our third episode on Dreams in the Golden Country.
You forgot the title for a second.
I always have to consult it because I am paranoid about forgetting it.And this is our third episode, so that means we are talking with some exciting guests.We have two guests today, a twofer.
So we are going to endeavor to not talk much and let them have time to expound on their thoughts.
But to introduce our guests today, first we have Catherine Lloyd, who is the Vice President of Programs and Interpretation at the Tenement Museum in New York City.
I'm so sorry, she's literally incapable of not saying New York City, like she's a Staten Island vampire.Did you hear yourself do that?You don't even know you do that.
So anyways, New York City or whatever you were saying. And then who's our other guest?I've now thrown her off the entire group.
Our other guest today is Amanda Brennan.She is a podcaster.She did a podcast for the Tenement Museum.And that's why I reached out to her because I was creeping on her on the internet.
And she also works with turnstile tours and is a New York native and And that's all I can remember from my notes that I had.So I will turn it over to you to kind of introduce yourselves.And my first question for you is what got you into history?
Was it a book?Was it a series?Anything?Why are you here?What?We invited them.Yes, besides that.
So Kat, we can start with you.Great.Well, so when you reached out, thank you for having me, by the way.And when you reached out, I was like, oh, my goodness, I know nothing about the Dear America series because I was an American girl.Oh, yes.
And, you know, Felicity, Samantha, Kirsten, they were my introduction to how to be a history nerd. as an eight-year-old.And so, yeah, since a young age, I mean, really, I've been just excited about learning about the past.
And I think books like this are always just such an amazing way for especially young girls to see themselves in history.And so that was the spark.And I actually don't have academic training as a historian.I have learned
through working at museums and I'm really excited to be able to share a little bit about what the Tanner Museum does and what we can lend to the history of this book with you all today.
That's so wonderful.American Girls, my first love too.I think of the Dear America books as like the slightly older sister to the American Girl doll books.So deep love for those.
And also just like- Can I ask briefly, who was your American Girl?Samantha, all the way.
Cause she had the best outfits.
Everybody loves Samantha.
Um, also just as we'll talk about, I love the, like, you know, um, progressive era, you know, rich girl learning about poverty.Um, it was a very compelling story.
Doesn't that start the same year as this book?Yeah.
She, Samantha's 1904.Wow.
So like right around.Yeah.Same time.
Fun.We're Jen and I this weekend are actually doing a dinner party tomorrow night based on the cookbook for the I have all the American Girl doll cookbooks, you know, because I'm a normal adult.And we're doing Addy tomorrow for dinner.
Yeah, so we're doing Addy for dinner.And it's all breakfast.
So we're we are cooking from the Addy cookbook.So it's good to be very excited.So Amanda, let's let's hear from you.
Yeah, well, you know, also, thank you for having me and for reaching out to me.I'm excited to talk to you guys about this book.I also did not, I was a little bit old by the time these books came out.
So I, this was my first experience reading the Dear America series.But I really enjoyed it.You know, as a child, I loved reading about history and kind of exploring my own personal history.
You know, both of my parents were kind of great storytellers and great at explaining our own family history and kind of turning me on to new kind of stories and new histories.And I was lucky enough to grow up in the, in the New York City area.
And so I also had the opportunity to visit museums a lot as a child.
And so, you know, having things like the, you know, Metropolitan Museum of Art and New York Historic Society and things like that, very close by, really kind of turns me on to the historic things, as well as book series, you know, things like,
Laura Ingalls Wilder, so like Little House on the Wood.
I have to be honest, as a child, I think I found them really boring, but that there was always something in like the bigger picture of the stories that kind of like really kind of pulled me in and made me want to know more.
Maybe they didn't want me to read more of the series, but kind of explore some of the more fact-based nonfiction books about those time periods, so.
That's very fun.There's such a wealth of museums in New York City.I mean, everyone knows this, but I can't imagine growing up in that environment where they're just at your fingertips.
It's so wonderful.How long has your family been in New York City?
So my family came, my dad's side of the family, so the Adler side of the family, came in the 1890s and settled on the Lower East Side.Wow.No way.
by kind of right in line with this and with a lot of the people who lived at the Tenement Museum and in the neighborhood.That's fun.Yeah.So, so that and also for that reason, I've always kind of had an interest in this particular time period.
And so when I kind of landed at the Tenement Museum coming from, you know, the Museum of Modern Art, it was a real kind of refreshing change of like, oh, this is something I've always wanted to know more about and spend some more time with.So.
And then my mom's side settled in New Jersey like in the 1930s.
Yeah, it's such a personal story for you that kind of growing up right in that same place.That's so cool.Should we dive right into discussing the book?So we have a bunch of different like themes that I kind of emailed you guys a long list.
So we, and I guess we could start out by talking about Or I guess maybe we want to just kind of like see how it goes.You mentioned before we started recording that there are some feelings about maybe some myths versus realities.
Maybe you're doing some myth busting here.So I guess. And we are totally fine with that.We love to know, like, it's one thing to learn about history from, you know, a fictional book and we all know that these are fictional books.
But that's the reason why we have a guest episode for for our books is
that we'd like to find out like what really happened like what's what's real what's what's fictionalized what's romanticized um and from a literary perspective we can look at those artistic choices and consider why the oops sorry babe consider why the author made them for the purposes of the story
You know, this one has an actual format, beginning, middle, end, and not all of these books have that.But please, what were some of the things that jumped out at you as really relatable and really wrong?Kat, would you like to start?
Sure.So, um, I we've been doing a lot of additional research into this time period recently because we are we're working on a tour about the Jewish high holidays.
So I just spent a lot of time with Yiddish newspapers and also rereading some memoirs from people basically from Zipporah's generation, right, people who immigrated as teenagers to the Lower East Side from the Russian Empire in this period.
And just having just reread, probably the most famous one is called Out of the Shadow, which is written by, eventually she goes by Rose Cohen, she was born Rachel.
And I think the biggest thing that struck me having just read that book is just Zipporah's experience with language, right?
And thinking about what the experience was like for young people moving into a neighborhood where Yiddish was the dominant language, where school actually tended to not be super accessible because of families' economic pressures.
So in Out of the Shadow, for example, the
protagonist, I mean it's a memoir, so she arrives when she's 12 and arrives basically the same time and goes immediately into work at a garment factory in someone's apartment because it was her income that was going to help the rest of her family come and immigrate.
So I think it just struck me kind of getting into this book made me wonder about those choices.And this was my first experience reading the book.
So I don't know a lot about the author or the series, but it really struck me sort of the author's decisions to have her learn English extremely quickly.In my experience,
Yeah, unrealistically quickly, like by week three, she's like able to write in English, but you're like that just does not happen.
And what was actually interesting too, it's like someone her age probably would not have actually been able to write in Yiddish either.
Right, thinking about access to literacy, like she may have had some exposure to reading and writing, but not necessarily in a formalized sense.And so I guess I was obviously for the device of the book and writing a diary like that needed to happen.
But the typical experience was actually much more that learning English is hard.It takes a long time, even if you are a teenager.And it was much more common that people lived their lives in the language of the community in Yiddish.
And so it really made me wonder sort of just about the choices there.
And also the way that that can reinforce a myth that people learn English fast right I think that's something that can be misunderstood about immigrants in the past, there can be the sense that, oh,
you know, it's somehow different than today when realistically, it's always been hard to learn English.There is a high barrier for time and money and, you know, obviously economic pressure.
And so I just I came away a little concerned about what message this might be giving people about the way that English language fluency does or does not play into someone's experience coming as a teenager.
Or that it's particularly American to speak English.Yes, to speak English.
It's not, right?America, United States has no official language.So I just came away wondering if you had read that book as a kid, what would you think about how quickly or how often people were learning English in that time period?
I think that's extremely valid.
reminded me that like I was one of my favorite parts about these books is that the back always contains like the section of pictures which I have come to expect and appreciate about every book about history is where the section of glossy picture is going to be.
And but they had an image of one of the Yiddish newspapers and they made the point right in the caption that like, Yiddish is primarily an oral language and they had to borrow
you know, the alphabet from Hebrew to kind of like even be able to write it down.So yeah, that's an interesting point that like, would she be even literate in her own language?
Yeah, absolutely pertinent.Love that.
When I was reading it, I was kind of thinking the same thing that, you know, but just on a bigger scale in terms of what the other books must be like, that you kind of have to send that disbelief probably in reading a lot of these books kind of.
assuming that these teenage girls have the education level to even be writing these types of diaries, you know, to begin with, have to stretch a little bit of the truth and a little bit of what the teenage experience would have been like for a lot of women, you know, in these time periods.
Absolutely.A lot of the things that don't get discussed are things that, in my opinion, we try to hide from children.And I don't think that's valuable because children become adults, but like,
A lot of times, these books dance around assault against women.And why?When we should be teaching little girls like, hey, pay attention.But they dance around it.It's right there on the edge of what they're discussing.
Especially in a lot of the stories of characters who are enslaved.They, the idea of, oh, you're a little too pale to be here, but you look, you've got his nose, that sort of thing.Like it's right there.
And we're just dancing around it instead of coming out and saying like, hey, women were assaulted in special ways.And it It didn't know color, it didn't know language, and it didn't know age sometimes.
But also, I may be a little dark, but I just think it's still pertinent.
That struck me too, because the author brings in the Bintel brief, which is the advice column, which can start until 1906 and she hasn't started in 1904.
Yeah okay but um so a lot of kind of disparities and I think she tried to speak to the larger experience all at one time with before and after things were happening.
Yeah yeah which you know you gotta you gotta work with with what you're trying to do but um one of the one of the letters that always um sort of sticks with me was um was of a woman sort of writing into the editor so this was
to the editor of the Jewish Daily Forward, which is the largest largest Yiddish language newspaper at the time.That also printed sometimes in Yenglish, right?Sort of this Yiddish English as they would transliterate English words.
But it's a letter from a woman who's being harassed, sexually harassed by her boss.And she writes in like, what do I do?I can't afford to lose my job.She's, you know, a teenage worker who is helping to support her younger siblings, her parents.
And so, yeah, just to your point of, you know, what the books do or don't address compared to what we know young girls' experience was actually like in these time periods.
Yeah.So, yeah, I think in general with the books, I think it kind of speaks to the choices that they make to make these characters kind of pre-teens, mostly, instead of in their, you know, slightly older.
I think, for example, if the main character of this story was her sister Tova, that might have been a much more present part of the story.
I will say, I wanted to hear from Tova's perspective.
Oh my gosh, right?Tova's the coolest part.
I was like, what's Tova up to?Can we go hang out with her?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. We married Sean O'Malley, tell me about Tova.
Yes, yes, I think, I think, yeah, so it's an interesting choice that, that she made to center Zippy's story and have her not be working in a, in a factory but going to school.
which kind of removes her from the possibility of that situation happening.So yeah, I guess I'm curious if, I mean, you've already kind of said that that wasn't probably like a very accurate thing.
So school was much more privatized and expensive at that time, or, okay, tell me.
Sorry, and I feel like I'm talking a lot.
So Amanda, this is definitely one.
So not that it was privatized.I mean, there was public school.It was free.But the much more common experience was that children, once they got to the age where they could work, or even if they weren't technically illegally allowed to work.
If your family needs more income, you know, people had to make decisions about who is going to earn that income.
And so what's a priority?
Exactly.So like 1894 school becomes mandatory for the entire year. mandatory.Right.There's obviously not like very good enforcement of this because of the volume of students who are in the New York City school system, but also only until age 14.
So at 12, it is it's a little more likely that she could have been in school if her parents could afford it in the sense that not afford to pay for the school, but could afford to have her her not working.
You know, at this time, like Jewish families in particular, they were coming as larger family units.
They were incredibly reliant on the income of their teenage children and of their younger children, even more so than I, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, Kat, than any other immigrant group at this time.
And so, you know, I think what Kat's absolutely saying, you know, is absolutely right, you know, that the likelihood of her, like, newly arrived immigrant family being able to have
afforded to not have her have any income, especially for such long periods.And I mean, she didn't work after school either.
I mean, it was like a, you know, a much more kind of a childhood than maybe would have been available to a lot of young immigrant girls at this time.But again, that that probably makes for a
a more relatable story in some ways for young readers, you know, so.
Yeah, which is interesting because a couple books ago we were reading about an Irish girl who was working in the Lowell, Massachusetts mills.So it's not as if they haven't touched on that subject before.
Maybe they didn't want to repeat a factory story so soon, but you know, but yeah, it's interesting.I think in many ways it's sounding as if this
were like a real situation at that time, like the Feldman family sounding pretty affluent in comparison to a lot of their other neighbors, probably.
I mean, I suppose that is like in the book where they compare themselves a bit to her friend Blue Wolf's family, how her father leaves her and so suddenly they are the family that they're, you know, bringing food and
add stuff to kind of take care of.And so like in that sense, yes, they are presented as a more fortunate family, but perhaps even more so than we even realized at the time.
No, it's a very good point.I truly had not considered.Were there other parts, sticking points in the book that you either loved or didn't love?
One thing I just wanted to interject about Blue's father there is that
One thing I did feel that the book tried to do was kind of made almost like an amalgamation of the immigrant experience over the course of like a 60 year period kind of, with all of these different groups kind of having similar experiences, but kind of different experiences all at one time.
And I can see why that choice, you know, maybe might have been made.One thing I think that they did do was kind of choosing larger themes and have them happen to the characters, like, you know, Blue's dad disappearing.
You know, that was something that there is a tenement family, a German family that we talk about who had a patriarch who disappeared in a very similar way.But, you know, maybe about 30 years before that, almost exactly 30 years before that.
You know, but one thing that I thought was interesting is that they talked about how he was a push cart worker, but he had started as a photographer.And this was really kind of the only thing
they tell you about blue father is that he's a miserable person and that he's a push cart worker.
And you know a lot of the tours that we do with turnstiles tours we talk a lot about street vending and public markets and push carts and so that was something that you know I could see why they were hinting at this kind of you know somewhat common
you know, situation for newly arrived immigrants when they go into, you know, the street vending field, you know, that was not a totally uncommon story.
And they really do kind of make a connection between that choice and his kind of personal unhappiness.And not that as soon as he kind of abandoned his family, he was able to return to his original passion.
So I don't know how much realism there was in that part of it, but it was kind of an interesting choice, you know, because even today,
There are many stories of street vendors and people in similar situations who, you know, in their old life had a much different, in their home country, had a much different life experience.
So I kind of appreciated that she was trying to speak to some of these kind of larger themes. you know, on a positive kind of interjection.
No, she definitely covers a very, like, if you look at the individual events of this book, Katherine Lasky, who is the author, packs a lot in.A lot in.She, like, fits in so much.There's labor stuff.Also, no other book talks about labor rights.
I would say, have we covered it?Lowell did.Oh, you're right.Lowell did.But for the most part, any sort of discussion of being pro-union is not something that you're really going to find in elementary age children's literature.
These books radicalized me.
I definitely appreciated that.Maybe back to my point about wanting to hang out with Tova.Yeah.Yes.But I think what she did, the other thing I appreciated that I felt
you know, she got right was the just relationship between siblings and what different siblings experiences of immigration were, what parents and children's experiences of immigration were, thinking about the mother's reaction to, even if I thought that it
also kind of didn't make sense that she would marry an Irish.
But that's so I appreciated to them that that that plot point was a way to then talk about the way that parents were grappling with a religious identity, right, and grappling with what it meant to be Jewish and what it meant to be Jewish in America.
for which there was no blueprint at this time period, right?1903, this is still a relatively new immigration, right?Jewish immigrants had only been coming in large numbers for a little more than 20 years.
And so thinking about how long it takes an immigrant community to get established, that a lot of parents were struggling with how to raise their children.
And what do you do when your child wants to marry someone who's not Jewish, or says that they're a free thinker and is no longer religious, the family can't afford to maintain the Sabbath, right?
So I thought that that sort of plot point was an interesting way to get to this generational difference.
You know, you actually touched on a number of things that I did want to ask about, if you don't mind, if I laser for a second.Sure, let's do it.
When we're discussing this immigrant experience, experience, specifically the Jewish immigrant experience, what ways did, you know, European held traditions change when those people came to America?Did the food systems change?
Did the, you know, like in America, our Sabbath doesn't always keep holy in light of capitalism, you know?So, you know, did they drop things like Shabbos traditions?What else?What can you tell us about how those traditions changed?
How the Jewish community that we know and love now has come to be?
Yeah, well, I mean, one thing kind of worth noting was that they did kind of do a little bit of a combination of the kind of old sweatshop home system and the kind of newer factory system, which, you know, kind of legally doesn't totally make sense.
But, you know, again, I understand the story devices that they were kind of trying to use there.But I think that one one way in which it was really affected was that shift over to this kind of new, newer factory system.
You know, having these more organized factories did hold some benefits, but it also
created for a lot of these families who have been working in this older system, you know, less flexibility in a lot of ways, you know, even if they maybe they were working for a Jewish German sweatshop owner, you know, a sweater who didn't celebrate the Sabbath or somebody who just didn't care, you know, and who needed the money and who worked you through.
I think the story does kind of suggest that at one point, where Zippy's father comes home, he forgets it's the Sabbath or something, and the mother gets very angry.
Um, you know, so I think in, in some of those ways they had to adapt, you know, they're always kind of giving an odd to her wig.That's definitely something that, you know, kind of shifts over time.Style is a big one.
Um, you know, what they wear and how they wear it and, and the ways in which, um, they're comfortable, um, I think is, is definitely one that, that you can consider.
I think they do a lot of that in the story, try to kind of touch on that, that relationship with being a new and that kind of changing environment.
But I think it's also kind of important to note that, you know, at this time, they're really experiencing the largest influx of Jewish immigration that they've ever had in New York City, you know, and over the course of like a 40, you know, 45 year period from 1880, you have like,
you know, a third of all Eastern European Jews are leaving.And just under two million of them come to the Lower East Side.You know, so we're talking about, like, a very heavily Jewish community.
So as Pat kind of spoke to before, they do have to adapt in a lot of ways, but in other ways, they're kind of very rooted within the community that they're in.
And so that relationship with assimilation is a complicated one, you know, and one that can be fought both with kind of resistance but also with an eagerness to maybe shift a little bit.
You know, so this was another thing that I, that they don't talk about in the book, but something that we did talk about at the Tenement Museum and something that I found very personally interesting was this kind of, again, this kind of myth busting of, you know, people changing their names at Ellis Island and the idea that like, they kind of unknowingly had their names changed.
And, you know, something that we see very common amongst these kind of Russian Jewish communities is that they start to take on Not only do they sometimes change their names, but they often change them to these German Jewish names.
You know, they're not, they're taking these kind of very modest choices, you know, they're not trying to not be immigrant, they're not trying to not be Jewish, but they're trying to seem kind of more American.
And so I think kind of changing one's name is a step, you know, definitely towards a real shift in the way that you kind of go through the world, you know, trying to seem more American and in the ways that you can.
You know, my own name, Adler, is something that certainly must have been changed along the way because my family is in no way of German lineage.
Not something that I kind of discovered at the museum was that, you know, wait, maybe this is reflective of my own story as well.
And I always kind of find it interesting, you know, that they could have, if you're going to change your name, you can choose anything, right?Like you could I mean, Rockefeller has a nice ring to it.
You don't have to choose something like Adler or Rosenthal as they do it at the museum.But I think there's a lot of ways, and I'll pass it over to Kat, in which you do really have to adapt to the new environment.
Yeah, I mean, I guess I'll use an example actually from the High Holidays research that we've been doing.So the High Holidays are the most important time of the Jewish calendar, right?That starts with Rosh Hashanah into Yom Kippur, right?
So it's known as the Days of Awe.And on the Lower East Side around this time period,
They had what were called mushroom synagogues, and I mean already around this time period there about 500 congregations throughout the Lower East Side, and when we say congregation that doesn't mean like a purpose built synagogue right people were meeting in tenement apartments they were meeting.
in storefront spaces.They were basically using whatever space they could find to pray, right?But come high holidays, those spaces were not enough, right?
There were so many thousands of more people who wanted to attend services during the high holidays who didn't attend services usually, that they had to have these basically what we would call today pop-up
synagogues right in dance halls and saloons and movie theaters and that the existence of these mushroom synagogues.
I think to me sort of is a good example of how everyone in the neighborhood had a different idea of what it meant to be Jewish and how you could be Jewish, right?That the reason that people aren't attending services could be manifold, right?
Maybe you don't have enough time in your day.Maybe you can't afford the dues at congregation. Maybe you don't want to be.You don't want to be going to services anymore.You're a free thinker.
But then, right, come high holidays, this sort of drive to attend services also tells us something about, OK, people are making all of these different decisions.
And yet there's something about this time of year that you're going to engage in this tradition.You're going to go to services.You're going to hear the same cantorial songs that you heard back in Europe.
You're going to eat some of the same dishes that you ate at the new year as you did back in Europe.And so I think just sort of the point Amanda was making, right, there are these like anchors, but then also, I'm gonna mix my metaphor.
there's there's like parts of like even kosher was something that a lot of people did even if they were changing other aspects of their of what it meant to be jewish um or going to high holiday services um so there are these things that become um which then of course become sort of like some of the hallmarks of jewish american identity today where it's still much more common for people to go to high holiday services than it is to go to like
Friday night services or other holidays.So you see sort of the start of that evolution.
But I think, right, it's like if we were on the Lower East Side in 1903 with Zippy, we're going to encounter like thousands upon thousands of different ideas of how one can be Jewish in New York City.
Even within the Lower East Side right it's like the neighborhood was so full.It was the largest Jewish city in the world if it had been its own city.Right, this is like really an unprecedented migration in US history.
And, and so we. have this huge concentration of Jewish immigrants here, how likely would it have been for someone like the Sheehan family to be living across the hall?Yeah, okay.
I was confused by that, which I think to Amanda's point about she's trying to do, she's trying to kind of share about the immigrant experience overall. Like, I mean, for many reasons, both Irish immigrants had come a lot earlier.
It's a little confusing.It's pretty unlikely that they would be living across the hall.Although it will say in under the, out of the shadow, but this under the shadow, this is like 1890.So it is a little earlier.
Like there were pockets of the Lower East Side that still had some Irish immigrants, but like Orchard and Canal Street in 1903,
I don't think I mean, I haven't looked at every page of the census, but I am I I'm pretty confident that there are no Irish immigrants living there.OK, Amanda, what were you going to say?
I was just going to agree with you that I think at that point it would have been pretty solidly, you know, Jewish and mostly mostly Eastern European.
As you said, the Irish immigrants at that point, most of them would have moved uptown and would have been living in other neighborhoods and, you know, a bit earlier than.
Not that, you know, people of all different types don't continue to come over throughout, you know, the course of the city's history, but.
Exactly.And I did appreciate what she was trying to do, right?Because I think something that often also does get missed is how people
who came to the city regardless of what period almost like people were aware of the other communities of the city even if you didn't live alongside them um you know communities were writing about each other in their newspapers or you know you you have to go to work and you happen to walk through another neighborhood um so
I think the question has come up for us a lot at the museum because we've been doing a lot of work in the process of adding our newest exhibit, which is about an African American family in the 1860s.
We've been doing a lot of work around trying to understand to what extent did European immigrant groups have connections with or know about the African-Americans who were in the city at the same time.
So we've been looking at a lot of German language newspapers, Irish newspapers, Yiddish newspapers to see how are they writing about race, how are they writing about the Black experience, about the Civil War, about what's happening in the city in these different moments.
And overwhelmingly, what we found is that people are aware, even if they have opinions that are often informed by this sort of larger racist dominant culture, they are aware.
So I did in a way appreciate that she was bringing in someone from a different immigrant background, even if I didn't think that it actually would have happened.
I was just going to say to Kat's point, you know, other neighborhoods and a little bit earlier on, like closer to the 1860s, 1870s, there were other neighborhoods where you did have more of a mixing of different types of immigrants.Yep.
Living there where you might have found, you know, in the 1860s, an Irish family and a black family living not far from each other that, you know, in in the neighborhood, you know, with it with the eighth ward that the story of this, you know, the new hope takes place, you know, so there are times and parts of the city where that was.
not uncommon.I think, you know, as Kat kind of said, in 1902 on Orchard Street near Canal, I think it would have been less likely that you would have found an Irish immigrant family in that site.
Yeah, that's very interesting.
So it's almost sounding like the way you're throwing out these different time periods, it's almost like a strata based on time or decade that the shift in the cultural makeup of that neighborhood, would you say that's accurate?
Yeah, definitely.I mean, It first, the neighborhood, like the first sort of immigrant population to live in the neighborhood sort of starts in the 1830s, 1840s.
People from German speaking states, which at that point was not unified into Germany, but the first sort of identity of the neighborhood becomes Plain Deutschland, little Germany.
And that's, it sort of takes on that identity by like the 1860s after a couple of decades of immigration. But at that point, like 70 percent of the neighborhood were people from German states.
So the other 30 percent, like Amanda was saying, were pretty diverse.Right.There were Irish immigrants.There were, you know, European Americans like U.S.born European Americans from other states.
There were some African-Americans, although not many that black neighborhoods were a little further west. So that period is actually much more diverse.
And then you start to see by the 1880s when Eastern European Jewish immigrants start to come in, it transitioned over into the predominantly Yiddish speaking neighborhood.That's so fascinating.The way that would change.
I think the author references this in the historical context.
uh but yeah then that that population um gets cut off with the 1924 johnson reed act which also impacts italian immigrants basically all southern eastern europeans um which then sort of coincides with like the start of the great migration the start of puerto rican migration so that by the 30s 40s um it's actually becoming one of the most racially culturally diverse neighborhoods in the city right and by the
60s.By the 1960s, it is like a solidly like no one dominant group and much more racially diverse than it had been in the past.
Cool.I love New York.Yeah.I just want to make us aware of the time very briefly.I know that Kat, you have a hard out at three.
I do, I could probably go to like 305.
Okay, I'm gonna ask you two quick questions then.Overwhelmingly, Jen and I decided that this book has a very happy sheen to it.Good, you know where I'm going.
When you hear the word tenement, everything that's taught about what life at a tenement would be is really bleak, like just wildly bleak.
Knowing that you two both are authorities on the Tenement Museum and what the actual history is, can you tell us, is the bleak aspect more true or is Katherine Lasky's happier look, is there a lot to be said for that as well?
And Kat, can we start with you?Because I know you might have to sail away.
Sure.I mean, I guess, I guess the thing I was thinking in reading the book.
was that like, I appreciate, I think actually like the day-to-day ups and downs of like the joys that you have to find when you're living in super challenging living conditions.Like I appreciated that there was joy, right?
That is so important and so often gets lost when we're telling- And a little bit rare in the Dear America books.Oh, now I have to read all the rest of them.But just thinking about the importance of understanding that like,
Even, and this is true, of course, throughout history, but so much more important for young people to learn that these people were people, they're people, right?
So they have the same ups and downs that we have and that their living conditions did not define them, right?
And so I appreciated that there were those like kind of daily and weekly, like, and that we got a little bit of like, you know, there's some high points, there's some low points.
The part that I thought also maybe contributes to kind of a mythological idea of immigration was like the overall like epilogue narrative where we sort of get this like, and she rises up and she does well and like this sort of like success story, which not to say that that didn't happen, but.
But it's a very American perspective.
It is, and it's a very, it can be a very harmful perspective, right?
Because it sets this expectation that that's, and that people should be able to do that independently, and that it's, you know, it is not, it's not dependent on who you are, what language you speak, or what privileges you have, and so, but yeah.
Like her success lies in becoming more American, basically.Yeah.You know, by the end that she, now she speaks English, and now she's, you know,
part of the theater, and so she's more, you know, more American, and so therefore that's her, like, success as an immigrant, I feel like.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.So again, see why she did it, because of the audience, but it makes me wonder, like,
Yeah, if Sapporo were a real person, but she would have, because this is the thing that we always, and sort of to your question earlier about like, how do you interpret the history of people who left you no record, no first person perspective to work with?
is we often ask visitors on tours, you know, we look at all these primary sources, we're working with census records, we're working with factory inspection reports, all of which have these gaps, right?
That you're like, okay, we can't, there's so much we can't learn from these records.
And there usually comes a point in every tour where, you know, you can kind of invite visitors to imagine, like, if we were to ask this person, like, how do we think they would have wanted their story to be told? Like, what would we want them?
What would they have wanted us to know?
And that's where then you get this invitation to people to document their own stories, document the stories of their elders, because that's the work we can do for the historians of the future, is document, like, how do we want our own stories to be told?
What are the complexities?Very well stated.I talk about this a lot, you can tell.I like it.Because we have a whole project where we invite people to submit a story of their own based around an object or a tradition.
And something we've been talking a lot about is that there's all of these studies.Actually, I don't know if there's all of these.
There's a few studies that show that children who learn about the sort of less rosy parts of their family history are more resilient. right?
So I think that serves us both on a personal level, like how can we learn about the parts of our family history that maybe our parents or grandparents didn't want us to know, right?And that works on a national level, right?
How much stronger can we be if we know the parts of our history that maybe we don't like to know?Yes.
Sorry, I just got very excited by that.Yeah, but it's- When the finger guns go off.
And then you're looking at the way other countries do it, you know, places like Germany, Japan, you know, they really have a national dialogue about, you know, the war and what that means to their sense of nationality and everything, you know, whereas in America, I think Kat put it beautifully there, you know, there's a real resistance to
to accepting and learning from a lot of the more difficult parts of our history.Yes.
Yes, I'm so sorry.I got so excited.Cat, we cut you off.And Amanda, we haven't even had a chance to ask you properly.No, it's okay, Cat, because she's gotta go and I've got a few minutes.
Yeah, let's get any final thoughts from Cat.If you want to keep going on that same train of thought, or else, is there anything, any last messages you want to leave with us?
Book recommendations you would like to give us or our readers regarding your
Ooh, totally.Yeah, I have two recommendations if you liked this book.I think it's print on demand, unfortunately.It's called Out of the Shadow by Rose Cohen.You might be able to find excerpts of it online.
It's a memoir written by a woman who immigrated when she was 12. to the Lower East Side.Wow.
And then what year it was published?
I mean, it's print on demand, but and oh my goodness, it was published in like 1906 or seven.Oh, goodness.Yes.
The reason I ask is the side reading that I did for this book, which is called Shutting Out the Sky Life in a Tenement.I believe one of the voices that they utilize in the book might have that same name because the the research So it's possible.
I have not read it all, but go ahead, sorry.
And then, oh, I guess two others.The Bintel Brief compilation, because I love advice columns and she references it in the book.So much fun.And it's just like the best window into people, what people were grappling with.Yeah, that one's great.
And then Anya Yazurska's Breadgivers, which is a fictionalized, but like based on her own experience as a teenage immigrant in this time period.That's so rad, thank you.
All right, so you mentioned that you're putting together a new program or exhibit based on the high holidays.
Yes, and actually for this audience there's a virtual tour on September 24. about high holiday traditions in tenements, and there will be a cantorial concert as part of it.
So it's on our YouTube channel, just go to Tenement Museum's YouTube channel, or go to tenement.org and find our events.So I hope to see some of the, if this will come out before then, I hope to see some of it.
This probably won't come out, but I hope it will be up.It'll be up on the YouTube.Yeah, yeah, yeah.Perfect, perfect.
And I think, We're going to be getting this out about Rosh Hashanah.
Probably, yeah, a little later, but still within a few weeks.
Before Halloween, but I think right around, if we're talking about Jewish high holidays, it is pertinent.So that's awesome.I'm so glad that we get to share that.And it sounds like this is just right in line with what we're doing.
Yeah, thank you so much for inviting me.This is great. Oh, wonderful, wonderful conversation.I guess I should really thank Amanda for making the connection.Thank you, Amanda.
Thank you, Amanda.Yes, thank you, Amanda.It was also, you know, just kind of approached by these ladies, so I was happy to kind of bridge the gap.
For sure.Okay, I'm gonna have to hop off, but thank you so, so much.Thank you for coming.Thank you.
We're glad you were here.It was so wonderful to chat with you.Take care, bye.
Bye.Okay.Amanda, thank you for staying with us.Yes, let's hang out for a little while longer.
Yes, we and we don't like, we don't have to keep this much longer, but I do want to kind of hear from you about, I guess, like, what I would love to talk with you about is the tours that you do and also the podcast.
You know, I'm because podcasting is a little different than giving a physical tour through a museum exhibit.And so I'm very curious, like,
how was that experience crafting these stories and like what was what were you know your priorities and what you wanted to talk about?
Yeah so I mean doing the podcast for the Tenement Museum was a really great experience.It was it was unfortunately timed because a lot of it came out in March of 2020.
So right when everything shut down we were just like starting things and we kind of done all the the interviewing and a lot of the back end.And it was, but that said, otherwise, it was a really great experience.
You know, I think as you guys know, as podcasters, that it is a really kind of a unique style of storytelling, because it's based so much on interviews.
But you're allowing people to kind of tell their own stories, and then you kind of speak around those stories.And so that
you know, when you're doing tours, you're just telling people's stories and you're kind of like telling your own versions of stories and histories.And so podcasting gives you the opportunity to have those, you know, those firsthand accounts.
And I mean, of course we do it on tours as well.You have, you know, you might have a recording or a historic perspective or something where you have a real piece of history that you can show an audience.
But one thing I think that I enjoyed so much about doing the podcast through the Tenement Museum was that you're interviewing
people with these firsthand stories, and then you're bringing it back, excuse me, to the museum itself and to the history, the bigger histories that we're talking about at the museum.
And I think at least for How to be American, you know, the Tenement Museum podcast, the thing that really kind of made it unique, you know, for a lot of history podcasts is that
we did have the museum as the largest resource and as the kind of continuous touchstone.
So whereas you guys really use these books as like the main theme that runs throughout all the stories, you know, for us, obviously, it was the museum and how things connected back to the stories that they tell at the museum, you know, the stories of immigrants, migrants, and refugees, and how those people come to feel American and what it means to be American.
So it was a really interesting way to, I think, have those conversations and to be able to bring real people with real experiences into the fold and make it a little bit more dimensional than just a tour with, you know, 15 people, which in and of itself for those 15 people is a very intimate experience.
But it was, I really enjoyed having the opportunity to bring it to larger audiences and in a studio and on a podcast. level, which was not something that I'd had a lot of experience with previously.So that I very much enjoyed it.
And I thought it was a unique way of kind of conveying the museum's mission and what they do there.
And we did get a very good response from people to the podcast, you know, wanting to come to the museum and kind of feeling more engaged with some of the stories from the museum by being able to tell the stories of people
who didn't live in the neighborhood at that time and who had different immigrant or migrant or refugee experiences. And so I think that was one thing that made the podcast kind of a nice entity to have.
I can only imagine.I haven't listened to that podcast.As a rule, I don't listen to other people's podcasts because I don't want to cheat and steal something accidentally.
But I can tell just from the way you speak that you'd be incredibly engaging to listen to.I feel like I could listen to you tell stories all day.
That's actually one of the things that everybody who comes on the show, you leave here as my best friend.
So can I ask you also, if you have any book recommendations, we are a listenership of readers and we try to do not only the reading of the initial book, but reading around the book subjects and themes as well.So if you have any that I can add to our
or podcast recommended.Oh, yes.Hey, yes.There's other, there's other ways to interact.Right, right, right, right.
Hey, okay.I didn't, I'm sorry to say I didn't come super prepared for this, but, um, I'm going to say, I mean, Henry, Henry Ross, I think it is called Sleep is like the classic kind of immigrant, um, novel, which I think very much holds up.
If you, if you want to really like dig your teeth into, um, kind of,
kind of a traditional uh we painted what era is that um it's the turn of the century as i believe it's been a long time since i've read it i'm sorry but i believe that is what it uh covers um that would be one that i would definitely uh that would be one that i would definitely recommend uh to people uh then also i would say for this particular kind of grouping and time period there's one called uh daughters of the shtetl
And that's by Susan A. Glenn.I think it's her name is 2N.And that's, I think the subtitle is like life and labor in the immigrant generation maybe.And that's really kind of a story of young girls of Zippy's type.
This kind of first kind of American quote unquote generation of Jewish girls and kind of what their, how their experience is.And we talk about kind of generational differences.
I think that kind of would be a good one if somebody wanted something that was a little bit more a little bit less fiction.
That idea of generational differences, do you mind if I hand you this?I'm so sorry, I have to stop clicking.
Looking at these books, which of course were written for our generation, I think I can say our, I'm pretty sure you're roughly mid-30s like we are, but no, so if we were to write these books
for Gen Alpha, which I believe are your generation children.The kids of our generation is Gen Alpha.And they're a different breed.The way that they are raised is very, very different from the way that we were raised and Gen X was raised.
How do you think the story of Zippy, assuming we kept the elements of the story the same, what would be the same?What would be different if we were writing for Gen Alpha?
Ooh, okay, I love that question.I wish Kat was still here because I feel like Kat would have so many great things to say about that.
Homegirl's got demands on her time.
But you know, she's a busy woman.
Let me see, I think, well, one thing I definitely think, kind of pointing back to some of the stuff that she said and that you guys had said earlier, where there are things that are very much glossed over in this book, and I think in a lot of these series, that I think in today's world,
And for this younger, the alpha, is it a generation alpha?Is that what you said?I think so.I'm prepared to be wrong.That they can kind of relate to and that they can understand.
And I think in the same way, there are certain things that we talked about more when we were kids that they're much more delicate with in talking to kids about now.
But, you know, kind of staying away from that and the things that I think would be kind of more discussed, I think would definitely be
the more realistic kind of female experience and how that kind of discrimination and how some of the conditions that must have existed in Toba's factory really would have taken on some darker undertones than I think are kind of discussed in the books.
And I think you had suggested that some of the other books, which I regretfully haven't read, but I think it sounds like a lot of those, you have a similar thing where they,
And that's a challenge, right, that we all have when we're talking about a very serious subject matter for a younger audience, right?My youngest son, he's seven, he reads these books, The Little People, Big World, I think they're called.
They're great, and they talk about real people, and they're always very serious ones.And we bought one the other day that was an Anne Frank one, and I was really interested to see how they were going to
kind of try to talk about this for a seven-year-old group.And, you know, I think now they're less afraid to kind of just come right out and say, you know, this group felt this, and so that resulted in this.
And I think we see that a lot more, too, in a lot of books about the civil rights movement and a lot of books about Black history now, where they're really talked about.And in the history of gender studies and of, you know, transgender, you know,
situations and the LGBTQ++ stories, I think, are told in a way that's a lot different than they used to be and in ways that are a lot more transparent.
And so getting back to what you're asking about in this particular story, I think that we would have seen more of that.
I think we would have heard more about her experiences as a woman and as an all-female family and her, you know, the slightly older women's experiences as a young married woman as a young married Jewish woman now in an Irish neighborhood.
You know, we talked heard a lot about how her mother felt about it, but we didn't.And, you know, I don't think we really heard too much about how, you know, Miriam felt about it or how.No, not at all.
You know, felt about her, a Yiddish speaking Jewish woman marrying into kind of an Irish community.You know, I'm not I don't I wouldn't imagine without saying for absolute sure, you know, I would not imagine that that would have
been the easiest transition for a lot of people.And so I think maybe we would have heard a little bit more about that.
Absolutely.Thank you so much for your thoughts.Jen, did you, I feel like I took over.I'm sorry.
I got really excited.I knew you would.I cannot stop myself.
Before this, she was like, I'm not gonna talk at all.I was like, you are.
That's not true at all.I woke up real crabby today and I did not want to participate in anything, but it's all right.We're best friends now and I do feel better.
And now we can just relax and chat.
Yeah.Sorry, no, you please go ahead.
I was literally just going to say, any final things that you want to say?
One thing that I will mention is that I think she did try to do, as I said before, she did try to do a job of pulling in a lot of these not uncommon stories that you hear from different immigrant groups at different times, even if it wasn't wholly accurate for the time period.
Um, you know, so she did kind of cover how, you know, a lot of the Irish communities did struggle, you know, with a lot of health issues and with a high infant mortality rate.
And that was definitely something of the immigrant experience by this time.
And in this neighborhood, you know, perhaps not, not in the ways that, that it was shown, but, but certainly something that was part of this 19th century, uh, immigrant experience, definitely.
And, you know, um, as I mentioned earlier, where Blue's father kind of abandons the family and that's something that we.
You know, I know that at the Tenement Museum that when I was working there, you know, quite a while ago, that was something we definitely talked about a lot and was something that was part of their family experience.
You know, again, it was quite a bit earlier.But, you know, I know a lot of the kind of.
Around the time that actually the father in the Tenement Museum disappears, you know, in 1874, it is the Hebrew, the United Hebrew Charities kind of starts up and this starts up in a way to try to help a lot of these communities that have
a much higher rate of kind of what they considered to be kind of a needy, quote unquote, needy class at this time.
If it was somebody like Blue's mother, even though geographically her being German in that neighborhood would have not been as likely, but it also could have been a sign of her never really kind of being able to achieve the type of economic success that would have been required and was achieved by a lot of other German immigrants at the time who moved out of that neighborhood.
But they did have these charities at the time that were set up to try to help a lot of people in her situation.And when they had the first annual report for this charity, they even mentioned as one of the largest
things that they were donating to to be to try to reduce husbands who have abandoned their families, to try to support these families and to reduce, you know, a desertion amongst husbands, basically.
So by giving up funds, they were able to keep the husbands in place, or they were propping up husbands who have already families where their husbands have already left?
Yes, I mean, there was probably a little bit of both, you know, again, at this time in the and this is in the 1870s.So this is about 30 years before before Blue's kind of story.So, again, she's kind of playing with the dates a little bit.
But, you know, at this time, it has started to become, you know, a not totally uncommon story that men go to work and they never come back.You know, and I think Zippy kind of suggests that where she says that, like,
they used to put out search parties for people like this.And I know at the Tenement Museum, I believe they did, they went searching for him.And they never found him, although the museum eventually does find his grave and realize that he did leave.
So fascinating.But it is something that the city is aware of and that the community is aware of and has been for many years at this point.So there would have been places that she could have turned to try to get some other sources of support.
And I think, you know, I don't know all of the details of it, but I think, you know, to your question, I think that there was probably both, you know, that they were trying to support families in ways that would try to avoid this type of desertion, but probably more likely than not, I would say it was sent to help women who had, you know, who perhaps had already been deserted.
But I think there probably would have been both.
That's fascinating that it was, common enough that you, A, the Tenement Museum has its history of it, and B, that like, I mean, that probably wasn't the sole, you know, function of these mutual aid charities.Oh, absolutely not.
You know, they were doing things like, you know, helping neglected children, giving food, you know, paying rent.I mean, these were all their main sources. But this was among the top things they were kind of dealing with.
Which is, I just, it's not something that you think about very often with the history of immigration.
For the immigrants who have come to West Michigan, which is where my historical study is, like Kat, I don't have a fore background in museums, I just started working as an intern and just kept with it for a couple years, 10 years.
Just kind of sneak your way in.
Yeah, that's work harder than everybody else.I'm the same actually.So no shame in that game.Right.
So I was it was jogging my memory because I, I work in a university archive, which works a lot with the the immigrant community that is the main group in West Michigan, which is the Dutch reformed community that primarily came here in the mid 1800s.
And we had our own set of mutual aid funds and burial funds and all that stuff.
But typically the story of our immigrants is not that at some point in time, the husband left.However, It's a different culture.
And then second of all, there wasn't such an influx of numbers here to West Michigan, that the immigrant story is the overwhelming story or that there would be enough numbers to support statistically significant stories.
It would also probably be harder to hide and disappear in a small town in Michigan.
Very true.Although it did happen.We do have a couple instances where people go missing and crop up at what was called the poor farm.Places where if you were indigent or
your family was simply not able to care for you, you would get shipped to county or city institutions that operated as farms and supported people that way, which was one of the more fascinating bits of research I got to participate in.
But of those immigrant stories, they're just not enough people to support a standardization of anything.So New York City is just such a different, It's just happening on such a different volume.It's almost hard to comprehend.
However- Sorry, go ahead.No, please.I just want to be respectful of your time.Oh yeah.
I just, the last thing I wanted to say is, you know, that it would have been, you know, certainly for somebody like Zippy as well, you know, as Kat mentioned, and as we talked about before, you know, this was the largest Jewish city.
I think Kat said the largest Jewish city in the world at this time, you know, so this would have been the most Jewish place
that she'd ever been, the most densely populated, you know, really would have been, and a community that really, you know, until the middle of the 20th century, the early middle, middle early, I never know that 1940s kind of period really would not have shifted away from that demographic.
And so that would have been an overwhelming and really interesting experience that I think maybe if they wrote the book now, they would have maybe talked a little bit more about too, just to kind of,
you know, that that kind of mindset of really being overwhelmed at what was around her, you know, she doesn't get very comfortable very quickly.Yes.I don't know how that is.
So yeah, that's I mean, I can sympathize with with the kind of mission I see that Catherine Lasky was trying to do to accomplish, which is
to tell a very broad story and very kind of flattened timeline but uh yeah I can I could definitely see I think my I had very similar thoughts I think to what I was saying earlier when reading the epilogue it was very much like.
Oh, and everything worked out.And, you know, she became super famous and wealthy.And like, even then, like moving uptown within like a matter of a couple of years, I was like, is that, how accurate is that?
Yeah, yeah.It's an accelerated version of the story.I think like Kat said, you know, and she's absolutely, you know, much more of an expert on this stuff than I am definitely.But, you know, I think as she said that, you know, this was,
There are a lot of historical inaccuracies, but at the same time, I think that, you know, that she does a really good job of giving you kind of a big picture and a kind of a nice, kind of a nice tightly woven version of some common immigrant experiences at different times.
And it made for kind of a nice, enjoyable read where you do get a sense of the place and an interesting story.So I think that's very effective.
It was it's overall, it's so nice to just read a joyous book, which is definitely not what I thought we would be.Yeah, I thought this was going to be a slog.The Oregon Trail book, I think so far has been most depressing.Oh, my God.
They saddle her with involuntary manslaughter.She kills two people. Wow.
And I was like, okay, what are these books?Yeah.
Yeah, no, it's been so fascinating.These are my first read throughs of these Dear America books because I did not read girly things when I was a kid.I wasn't cool.I was I had internalized misogyny.
So it's a very real thing.
Yes, it is.We all deal with it.Got to get past your Barbie phase and ended hating Barbie and then passed it to something else.Back to loving Barbie. I don't know if I'm there yet, but yeah, question mark, that's fine.So I will let you go.We, sorry.
I just act like she's not even here.I love you.But yeah, so this has been such a treasure and such a treat.Thank you for sharing with us and for getting us in touch with Cat.
I can't imagine a better way to spend an afternoon, especially when I started out so crabby today.
Well, I'm glad.I hope you're feeling a bit brighter than you were this morning.
It worked perfectly.Is there anything you would like to leave us with or promote or go on a tour with?
I'm going to cough briefly so you can think for a second.
If anybody is in the in the New York area, you know, and wants is looking for the street vendors or a public market, we do those with turnstile tours.
And that will give you a lot of information about both past and even more so present immigrant communities and their ties to street vending.
which, you know, they don't really talk about in the book, but they do kind of- They touched on a couple, like the pickle vendor.
Yeah.And like, I love pickles.So like, I got really excited and fixated on that.
New York street vendors are such a- New York's just like the corner hot dog cart or something.Or like, I went to New York this past spring, And I think I had the best euro I've ever had possibly from a halal cart in front of the Met.
It was just, it was so succulent.
I could go for some halal cart yellow rice right now.No, I love New York City.I'm so glad that you were able to share a little bit of New York and turnstile
I genuinely, I'm going to get a kidney soonish, like in the next year, and I will no longer be on dialysis and chained to my home physically.
So I will come and you and I will meet face to face and I'll be like, hey, we podcasted together once, what up stranger.
And I hope to.Yes, I will also be there.
Yeah, I usually make Jen come to most things because I get anxious without her.So if I'm going to do a thing, she better believe she's coming to.
Well, you know, would have been the kind of thing that would have been I mean, again, they don't talk about it in the book much, but it would have been a big part of.
of life for somebody like this, you know, she would have seen streetcars, especially on streets like Orchard, you know, lining the street many, many 15, 20 blocks long, you know, and it would have been part of an everyday life and a big part of the community for a lot of immigrants in these neighborhoods at this time.
So, yeah, so, you know, come on and hear about what street vendors are doing today and how the industry has changed and how the city is kind of managing it.And so we talked a lot about that.
Yeah, but it was so nice to talk to you guys and thank you so much for inviting me.I really feel... very flattered and happy to be here.And I hope that I've been able to talk a little bit about what you wanted to hear about.
And I was so glad to join us because she's fantastic and she knows her stuff inside and out.
So they were both ideal guests.Yes, those were honestly worked out by my wildest dreams.I was so thrilled to hear back from you and so honored that you guys came on our little show. You're rock stars in our eyes.
Thank you so much.We'll let you go.And hopefully we can speak again in the future if there's any if you have any tours. that are coming up that you're really excited about, just let us know if they fit somewhere with an American, a Dear America book.
I almost said American Girl.I know.I know, you can't cross the streams.But if it fits somewhere, it'll be great to keep that open dialogue between us so that you can continue to share stories.
You're such a wonderful storyteller and we can profit off of your talent.
I was going to say they also do a lot of tours about the New York waterfront.They work with the Brooklyn Navy Yard and the Army Terminal. I don't know if that really is any of the books, but- I bet you that'll have a World War II application.
Absolutely.Definitely come and check us out.We're always happy to have more visitors.
Perfection.Well, thank you so much for your time.Have a wonderful evening.I hope your kid feels better ASAP.
Thank you very much.And thanks for chatting with me and let me know if you need anything else.You can always email me and stuff.Will do.Yes, absolutely.Bye guys.Bye.Bye.
Oh, wonderful.I'm so happy.I've been seriously just like geeking out since Amanda answered my awkward little LinkedIn message.
You're so cute, LinkedIn, you professional.
I professionally creep on people sometimes.But yes, that was truly my dream guest for this book.And I'm so fascinated by all they had to say.
It was really great to get such a wonderful perspective on the shortcomings of the book.It really made me see the book differently, which is powerful.Not negative, but powerful.So I'll think more critically about what I'm reading come future.
absolutely yeah i think we had some inklings there we were like wow this is a really happy kind of positive book i probably shouldn't have felt so comfortable with how happy it was like this is great what a great book and i i think again like i'm i'm not saying that as like a huge knock against katherine lasky i think certainly not i think it's a very enjoyable like read and and it's it covers so much um but i think it's
like we said you know one of the reasons why I want to talk to you know people in the field is that it's it's important to get that perspective of like yeah these are this part is kind of accurate but like you know there's no way they'd be going from like Ellis Island to uptown like that quickly in five years.
So yeah it was it was just a joy to talk to them and also just it's so interesting to get that perspective and just learn more.
i almost i wish we could have talked to them all evening but you have places to go and i have places to go and they have places to go and meetings to be at um and we you know and also you dear listener probably have other places to be as well i hope you uh had a good time folding laundry or doing dishes or driving or
laying down yeah which is what i intend to do next i'm gonna go get some horizontal time in which sounds dirty it's not i'm just gonna lay down just nap yeah well not even because then i messed up for the whole night oh yeah but if i'm just flat for a while it's the same as a nap i yeah this is what being 36 is kids so
that's what you have to look forward to.That's right.All right well we uh that's it for this book um the next book coming up is Standing in the Light the Captive Diary of uh someone.
Thank you.Happily.As always I start these sentences without that book in front of me.So um we will sign off and we will be back in fortnight with that book and uh yeah I don't have we don't have a formal.
Hey, thanks for listening.We'd like to thank Erica Page for creating our amazing intro and outro music, Callie Charing for being the best research librarian we know, and the world's best editor, Danny Heck.
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