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The Leon County courtroom was crowded that morning.The judge settled into his chair as lawyers shuffled through their papers.
— I believe we have Mr. Winchester up first this morning.Good morning, Mr. Winchester.
— Brian Winchester stared out at the courtroom over a live video link.The screen showed him seated at a table, wearing a blue prison uniform. It had been five days since Brian kidnapped Denise and held her at gunpoint.
And now, the judge was going to decide if he could leave on bail.Brian's lawyer stepped up to speak.
Your Honor, we don't believe he's a flagrist.We would point out that the entire probable cause affidavit is based on the testimony of one person.There's no corroborating physical evidence.There's been no gun recovery.
Investigators hadn't found the tarp either.And that spray bottle of bleach? The lab confirmed it was just water.
There's no witness other than a wife that has a pending divorce case against the defendant.You're looking at one person going into a police station and making a statement to law enforcement.
Then, Denise walked up to give her statement.Brian stared straight ahead on the screen.I have a statement from my teenage daughter.
And then I would like to read something.This is from my teenage daughter.
At the mention of Ansley, Brian looked up and raised his hands to his face, as if wiping away tears.I am scared.
My mom is scared.Please don't let him out.He had a gun.He could have killed her.She is all I have.Please don't let him out.He will come for her, and then I will have no one.Please.And she signed it.
And this is my statement.Brian leaned into the camera and looked down at his lap.
I am begging you to keep Ryan behind bars.He was waiting for me in the back of my car with a gun.I will never be the same.I would never wish this on anyone.I can't sleep.I can't eat.
I can't close my eyes because I only see him rising up out of the back of the car, screaming and waving the gun.I can't relax because all I feel is the gun shot into my ribs.
Brian lifted his head, staring at the ceiling.
You have the ability to protect me and my family.Please don't let him out.Thank you for listening and for considering my request.
As Denise made her way back to her seat, Brian looked down at the floor.The woman he'd shared so much with had turned on him.Whatever bond still remained between them now seemed completely broken.
The judge listened to the lawyer's final comments, then leaned forward.
I'm going to rule as follows. As to the armed burglary and kidnapping counts, I am going to find proof evident and presumption great.And he's going to continue to be held without bond on those two counts.
There was no visible emotion on Brian's face.He got up and walked off camera. Brian wouldn't be getting out of jail, at least not until he stood trial.And with Denise testifying against him, the chances of a jury setting him free were slim.
Brian was trapped, maybe for a very long time.If he wanted to avoid that, he was going to have to find another way out. From Wondery, I'm Jennifer Portman, and this is Over My Dead Body, Gone Hunting.
♪ Baby, I'm guilty, I got his blood on my hands ♪ ♪ Baby, you're crazy, I never touched that man ♪
This is Episode 5, Three Trees.Wade Wilson and Brian Winchester weren't obvious buddy material. Wade was in his early 20s, already had a long rap sheet for sexual assault, burglary and child cruelty, and had a neck full of tattoos.
Bryan was the clean-cut insurance salesman who'd never been arrested and was almost twice Wade's age.But in the Leon County Jail, Wade and Bryan hit it off.
— We became, I guess you could say, jailhouse friends, whatever you want to call it, acquaintances.
— This is Wade in a later police interview. Wade had heard what Brian was in for, and he was ready to give him the benefit of the doubt.
I thought, maybe, OK, Brian, maybe, you know, he didn't do this, he's just, he got caught up in a bad situation.
A bad situation.That was why Brian had first approached Wade.Wade was a guy with the right experience, a guy who might be able to help Brian solve his problems, particularly because Wade was going to be leaving jail soon, released on probation.
So he knew I was going home.He wanted me to help his case.
A few days before Wade was due to be released, Brian came to him with a proposal.
What he wanted me to do was set up reasonable doubt with various scenarios and situations so that when he goes to trial, there's multiple situations with forming reasonable doubt and he's not going to be found guilty.
Brian gave him a few different scenarios.The first involved Florida State University.
He wanted me to find a girl who went to FSU because Denise worked at FSU.She would know about Denise, so Denise would know her through school.
The plan was Wade was going to pay the girl to lie to the police.
She was going to tell them she had been in a sexual relationship with Denise, and that in an unguarded moment, Denise had confessed to her that she'd made up the kidnapping story about Brian.
She admits to this girl that my husband's in jail.And she continues on to tell this girl, I feel guilty because I put him there.Me and this guy that I'm seeing right now have put Brian Winchester in jail and I feel guilty about it.
And so in Brian's mind, what that would have created would have been, you know, obviously that Denise admits that she put Brian in jail and so Brian's innocent.
That was scenario number one.But Brian had other ideas for Wade.
The second one that he came up with was he wanted me to find somebody that claims that they used to sell, like, cocaine and that, you know, Denise has a coke problem.
The third scenario was he wanted me to, like, find another person who says, you know, I'm seeing this woman, but I don't know what to do because she's involved in this situation and it's a little too much for me right now.
Wade told Brian he wasn't sure this was something he wanted to get involved in.But when the day of his release came, Brian pulled him aside again.
And he says, please, please, please help me.Help me.I need your help.If not for you, it's nobody else.I need your help.I need you to help me.
And this time, maybe against his better judgment, Wade said yes.
He kind of persuaded me, OK, I'll help you.Again, I'll help you, bro.I really don't want to.But, you know, at this time, I still thought he was maybe innocent.I'll help you.
As soon as Wade agreed, Brian gave him a phone number to call when he got out of jail, a kind of await further instructions thing. — It was mid-afternoon, when Wade drove into the parking lot of a pool hall named Pockets.
As he pulled in, Wade's phone rang.The guy on the end of the line told him he'd arrived, and had parked across the street from the fire station.Wade told them he'd be right there.
— He had a gold, if I remember correctly, two-door truck.So I pull up to his car, he opens his driver's door, he never gets out of the car.I walk up to him, and I stand there, and we talk.
Out of jail on probation, Wade had got a burner phone and called the number Brian gave him.The man answered and gave Wade instructions on where to meet him.
He's like, OK, so I understand, you know, Brian told me what's going to happen.And he said, I want you to follow me.And I said, OK, well, where do you want me to follow you to?Like, where are we going?How far is this?He said, not far.
Just a few blocks north, they turned into the parking lot of an old seafood restaurant.Wade followed as they drove around back.
He puts his window down and he sticks his arm out and he points to a little hedge of bushes that's behind that restaurant.So I get out of my car and I walk over to the bushes and there's a white manila envelope.
I get back in my car and he puts his hand out again, gives me a thumbs up, okay, and puts his window up and he drives away.
Wade looks down at the unopened envelope just sitting there next to him.He pulls over and picks it up.
Opened the envelope.Inside the Manila envelope is $20,000 in cash.Brand new hundreds, a lot of them.50s, 10s, all that, all brand new money.
But there was something else in the envelope.
It's like 15, 20 pieces of paper, handwritten.
What it is concerning his wife, it talks about her past problems, what she's done to him, where she lives, her cars, the license plate numbers on her cars, gate code to the community that she lives in, how to get into the community, the garage door code to her house, what kind of car she has, what color they are, their children, how old they are, all this stuff.
And it was all just in there.
It was research material Wade would give to the fake witnesses to help them make their stories more believable.And the money was to pay them.Opening that envelope and seeing what was inside, it kind of freaked Wade out.
At this time, I'm thinking to myself, I'm like, listen, you know, this is too much.I don't want anything to do with this.I don't want anything to do with this situation.I don't want to be involved with this situation.
In my mind, I'm thinking of a way, like, okay, how am I going to get out of this situation?
So he called the guy back.
So I pull up in my car, and this time I get into his car in the passenger side.So I told this guy, I'm like, listen, just tell Brian, I'm sorry, man, but you know, I can't help you guys.I just, I don't want any part to do with this whole situation.
I just, I can't help you guys.I'm like, here, I'll give you this money back, okay?Because I'll give you this money back, the paperwork that was in this envelope, you can have it all back.I'll give it all back to you.
I don't want any, I don't want anything to do with the situation.
Pretty much she told me that, listen, it's already too late.You've read this paperwork.You already know too much.You already said you were going to help.So do you value your life?Do you value what you have going on in life?
Wade got out of the truck.Maybe it was a bluff.Or maybe Brian and his accomplice were seriously dangerous.Wade made a decision.
I got rid of the phone.I got rid of the phone.I didn't want him contacting me or somehow tracking me down.And I actually went to Texas to get away from this guy.
But he took the 20 grand.
I bought a lot of personal training equipment.I'm also 22 years old, so I bought a lot of just cool stuff.
Not long after, Wade came back to Tallahassee. With all the money gone, he wound up back in trouble with the law again.
Today's date, July 6, 2017.
And that's how Wade found himself in a small interview room at the Leon County Courthouse.
We were told that you had some contact with a subject named Brian Winchester.Is that correct?Yes, I did.
Wade knew how the system worked.If he told the police about what Brian had hired him to do, that could very well be his get-out-of-jail-free card.So Wade told the whole story.
We became, I guess you could say, jailhouse friends, whatever you want to call it, acquaintances.
And the state attorney's office listened with great interest.
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The Mike Williams case had been on the radar of a prosecutor named John Fuchs for nearly two decades.So when he heard that Wade Wilson had come forward, he was hopeful this was finally the breakthrough.
Ever since Brian's arrest, he'd been getting nowhere.
It became pretty clear that once Winchester was arrested and he lawyered up, executed his Fifth Amendment right to remain silent, he wasn't going to confess to anything.
So Fuchs had been piling on the pressure.He met with Bryan's lawyer, Tim Janssen, and basically told him, your client has two options, and he's not going to like either of them.
We said, OK, here's our plea.Our plea is to life imprisonment unless he tells us the information.
Pursuing a life sentence in a case like this was extreme.Brian had kidnapped Denise and threatened her at gunpoint, but he hadn't actually harmed her physically.Brian's lawyer, Tim Jansen, seemed caught off guard.
Tim says, why can't we work this out?You know, typically we're talking about a prison followed by probation type situation.Why are you hardlining my guy?
And I looked at Tim and I said, well, we believe your client knows something about the disappearance of someone here in the community.And unless he's willing to give us that information, then we're not interested in dealing with him.
And Tim looks at me and says, well, who are you talking about?And I looked at Tim and I said, If you don't know the answer to that question, you're the only person in Tallahassee that does it.
Of course, he looked at me and said, OK, then I'll talk to my client and I'll get back with you.
Fuchs didn't hear back.Weeks went by, then months.It seemed like Bryan was going to take his chances at a trial.But then Wade Wilson began talking.
There was ongoing investigation where they uncovered that Brian Winchester was trying to tamper and or harm Denise Williams from the jail.
Everyone involved in the case knew what that meant.Brian was now staring a life sentence in the face.Denise would testify in the witness stand that Brian had tried to kidnap her.Wade would provide evidence that Brian was still a threat.
Even in jail, he'd been scheming to harm Denise.No jury was going to let him walk free.
Which precipitated Tim coming back and saying, OK, my client's willing to talk.
They put together a deal. Brian was finally going to admit he had information about Mike Williams' disappearance.
And, in exchange, John Fuchs agreed not to pursue a life sentence in the kidnapping case and would give Brian immunity in the Mike Williams case.
We obviously sat around and talked about it as a team and where we were.We knew what the goal was.We also knew that we were never going to solve this crime.
So, in a way, it was a pretty easy decision, but at the same time, it was a very difficult decision.You're basically letting someone get away with murder.
But before they agreed, the authorities needed to know Brian was telling the truth.And there was one obvious way to find out.Later that day, Jason Newlin got into an unmarked car at the Leon County Courthouse.
He was an investigator from the state attorney's office.Next to him was Brian Winchester.
He sat in the front seat with me, handcuffed and shackled.
Another investigator, Tully Sparkman, was in the back, sitting behind Brian.
It's more of a secure situation, that if Brian wanted to act crazy, I'd rather have Tully behind him and be able to do something.
Jason was driving, but he didn't know where he was going.Brian was going to be giving directions.
We took Gadsden Street north to Meridian, and then to Meridian, and then took Meridian all the way out.
They headed along the tree-lined canopy road, passing upscale Tallahassee suburbs that gave way to swampy woods.
At one point, Brian would have been able to glimpse North Florida Christian, the school where he'd gotten to know Mike and Denise decades earlier.The place where this whole story had begun.Now the story, or one chapter at least, was coming to an end.
A few miles further on, Brian told them to turn left onto a narrow lane.The lane gave way to a dirt track, and they eventually came to a dead end at a shallow stretch of water known locally as Carr Lake.
The shoreline was surrounded by large overgrown trees.Patches of green hydrilla and lily pads polka dotted the surface of the water. They pulled off to the side of the road.Jason and Tully got Brian out of the car.
We kind of gave him some space to just let him do his own thinking.You could see him sitting there and he was really processing a lot of what was going on.
Brian began to look around, trying to get his bearings.The place was strewn with trash from illegal dumping.Shotgun shells littered the ground from skeet shooters.
He's walking with leg shackles on.He's got a belly chain with handcuffs through the belly chain, so his arms aren't moving a whole lot.His legs are moving, you know, 10 inches per step.
He led them slowly to a wooded area near a boat ramp.He told them the water had risen a lot since he was last here.
And he's just looking, and he'll look back at us, and then he'd look down at the ground.That's when he started telling us the story.
Brian pointed to the shoreline up ahead.
He's like, I remember three trees, and he named them, I don't know, water oak or something.And he goes, and that's three of them right there.
That was it, Brian said.That was where they would find Mike Williams. Over the last 17 years, Carr Lake had risen by several feet, and the spot Brian had pointed to was now underwater, which meant finding Mike was going to require serious manpower.
We got the Leon County road crew to cooperate and agree to not say a word about what they were doing, but not really telling them what they were doing either.They had to bring in huge water bags that they ended up
creating a dam to allow water to be pumped out of this area.So we had to drain the water out with the pump. keep the pump running for multiple days and make sure nobody came trampling through our little work site at the time.
The hunt went on for six painstaking days.Searchers learned to watch out for cottonmouth vipers in the thick mud.
After several days of scraping, not digging, scraping inch by inch with a backhoe, one of the operators came across the tarp and that's when everything hit pause.
Inside the blue tarp was a body.It was wearing hunting clothes, the same clothes Mike Williams was wearing 17 years ago.Encircling the bones of the left ring finger was an intact wedding band.
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It was December 19th, 2017, when Brian Winchester walked into courtroom 3A at the Leon County Courthouse. It was a year and a half after Brian held Denise at gunpoint.He was there for sentencing on the charge of kidnapping Denise.
The gallery was divided in half by an aisle, and friends and family of Denise, Brian, and Mike sat anxiously, unsure of what would happen next.None of them knew about the plea deal or what had happened to Carlake. Brian stood up to address the judge.
All he could do now was plead for leniency.
I apologize to everyone at this point, to my family, to my friends, and especially to Denise.
He wore a Navy prison uniform with tissues bunched up in the front pocket.He leaned over the microphone, wearing reading glasses.
Never, ever did I have any intentions of harming Denise, nor would I. It seemed like Brian was making a final appeal to Denise, the woman he'd married, who he'd kidnapped, who'd got him arrested, and now still held his fate in her hands.
Denise got up to speak, dressed entirely in black.
He is the reason he has been sitting in jail the past 16 months.He's the reason that he lost me and his children.I'm asking you to sentence him to life in prison for the crimes he has committed.It comes down to my life or his.
And I'm asking you, please, to choose life.
Nothing had changed her mind since the bail hearing.The lawyers made their final statements, then the judge gave his verdict.For the kidnapping of Denise, Brian was sentenced to 20 years in prison.Brian looked stunned.
It was more than he'd been expecting from the deal.He would be eligible for release by the age of 65. For friends of Mike watching, the hearing had been a disappointment.There was no mention of Mike.
It was the most depressing day I think I've ever had.Brian's gone to prison.Denise is going to have a happy life.The one thing that was bothering her was Brian Winchester.He's gone and we'll never find what happened to Mike Williams.
So it was it was dark.Gosh, it was just miserable.
After all those years of waiting for a moment like this, it seemed like the best chance of finding out what had happened to Mike had gone.But that wouldn't last long.
Good afternoon.I'm Special Agent in Charge Mark Perez with the Tallahassee Regional Operations Center.
The day after Brian's sentencing, I got a call.The Florida Department of Law Enforcement was holding a press conference.
I appreciate you being here today as we provide you an update of the Jerry Michael Williams investigation.
I was sitting a few rows from the podium alongside reporters from all the local news outlets in Tallahassee.
Standing here now, I can tell you that we know what happened to Mike Williams.He was murdered.And while this case is 17 years old, it just recently turned into a homicide investigation.
Agent Perez said that human remains had been found and that DNA testing had confirmed that the remains belonged to Mike Williams.Forensic analysis had also shown that Mike had been killed.As he was speaking, I was connecting the dots.
Was this press conference timed after Brian Winchester was sentenced yesterday?Was there any correlation between those two events?
I think the only correlation we felt it necessary just to allow that was a separate investigation being conducted by the Leon County Sheriff's Office, and we were letting that run its separate course, and we thought it appropriate to let that run its course before we made the notification today.
It seemed clear to me that Brian must have led law enforcement to Mike's body.How else could they have found it after all these years?
But everything else about Brian's cooperation with the police was a mystery to anyone who wasn't inside the state attorney's office.How much had Brian said?How many details had he been forced to give?Who else had he implicated?
If I was pondering those questions in December of 2017, I knew Denise Williams was too. Now that she'd helped send Brian to jail, one question would be top of her list.What had Brian said about her?
But Denise's name was not mentioned at the news conference.It came and went without her being arrested or charged.Weeks went by.I don't know what was going through Denise's mind over this time.
Perhaps she was beginning to think the police had moved on.Or maybe she was scared, waiting, dreading what Brian had set in motion. Then one day, a couple months later, Denise got a call.It was Kathy, Brian's ex-wife.
She said she was being subpoenaed, compelled to come to court to testify about what she knew about Mike's murder.But what Kathy didn't tell her was that the call was being recorded by law enforcement.
So I'm kind of freaking out about this subpoena.I'm sure I know they're wanting to talk to me about Mike and I mean I've always just pretended like I don't know anything and I mean, I do know.What do you know?
Well, do you remember back when all of that happened with you and Brian and Chuck in Atlanta?
Yeah.Chuck Bunker, Denise's boyfriend from way back.The one who saw Brian threaten Denise in the lobby of that hotel in Atlanta.
Brian called me at the shop crying.He just told me about Mike.
He called you upset about Chuck and then he wanted to talk about Mike?He was mad at you. And so he told me, he told me about what happened to Mike.
Well, I would love to know what happened to Mike.He never told me.They said they found his remains and that he was beaten or that he was shot.
Brian told me that y'all planned it.Planned what?
Oh, my God.Brian had told Kathy what?Denise seemed genuinely shocked.But what was it that she was shocked about?Was it that Brian had murdered Mike?Or was it that Brian had shared their terrible secret with someone else?Kathy kept on pushing.
Denise, I'm just going to ask you this because I've been thinking about it, but... I... Not long before Mike's, he called me.Mike called me.And he had found a bunch of money in your wallet.And he said, I think Denise has a boyfriend.
But I remember thinking, Like, he knows.He knows that Denise and Brian like each other.And, like, I've always thought to myself, if I had said, like, I think Brian has a girlfriend, I've always wondered if he would still be here.
Like, why couldn't y'all just get a divorce?I've always known that you and Brian loved each other.Brian told me one time that you were his best friend and that was just the way it was always gonna be.Did Mike find out?
Everything Kathy was saying seemed to have one message.I know a lot more about all of this than you thought.If Denise was ever going to open up, maybe this was the time.Kathy already knew so much.Maybe she'd understand.
Maybe Denise could tell Kathy about Brian.Maybe she could tell her about the exact nature of her relationship with him. Maybe Denise could tell Kathy whether she ever suspected anything about what Brian did.But Denise didn't do any of that.
She deflected.She focused on who Mike might have spoken to.
I think I remember, I'm pretty sure he told me that he had called you. And I don't remember how much money it was.I don't remember.I do remember money and I do remember a conversation about pot.I guess I didn't know that he had talked to you.
The conversation went on for a few more minutes before a tearful Kathy said she had to go. Later that day, state attorney's office investigator, Jason Newland, pressed play on the recording.
As he listened, he was struck by how little Denise had managed to say.Denise seemed to anticipate every move.
This is tough.Denise, she didn't cave.
But he had heard how many times Denise had seemed to be caught off guard that Kathy knew something she thought was a secret.
Denise was going, wait a minute.You know, in her mind, there's only two of us that knew about this, and we had a pact, and there was supposed to be nobody else.How did this happen?
He'd been hoping for more, but the call did reveal something.
The hope would be, just let me get this off my chest, and fine, I don't know what Brian told you, but this is what I knew, or just anything.But, I mean, the best we got was not denying that she and Brian knew something that nobody else knew.
Denise hadn't confessed to anything, but she also hadn't quite denied anything.It wasn't a lot, but as far as Jason Newland was concerned, it helped complete a case he and his colleagues were very ready to bring to its conclusion.
Three months after that call between Denise and Kathy, I got a tip from a source.Law enforcement were headed to Doak Campbell Stadium on the campus of Florida State University.
I had just a few minutes to grab a photographer and another reporter and rush over there.It was May and already hot, the kind of sweltering afternoon you get used to in Tallahassee. We watched as the cops pulled up and walked into an office building.
Minutes later, they brought Denise Williams out in handcuffs.She was wearing a purple dress and green leggings.Her blonde hair was pinned back from her forehead.Law enforcement officers flanked her on both sides.
She stared down at the ground when she saw me.I had one chance to ask questions as she walked past. Do you have anything that you want to say to Cheryl?Or anything you want to say at all?
All those years covering this case, that was the only time I ever spoke to Denise.She walked right past me without saying a word. So many people in town had suspected Denise had played a role in the death of Mike Williams.
Now police and prosecutors had said the same thing.But what had Denise actually done?What was Brian going to say she had done?And did anyone have a reason to believe him?We were going to learn those answers soon at trial.
Denise makes a very easy target.Oh, it's got to be the wife, right?You know, it's all Eve's fault.Adam was never going to eat that apple.It's got to be Eve.
That's on the next and final episode of Over My Dead Body, Gone Hunting.From Wondery, this is episode five of six of Over My Dead Body, Gone Hunting.A series about the extremes of love and betrayal.
Over My Dead Body Gone Hunting is hosted by me, Jennifer Portman.This series is written and reported by Eric Barton.Producer is Denise Chan.Senior producer is Russell Finch.Story editor is Eric Benson.Consulting producer is me, Jennifer Portman.
Production assistance by Evangeline Barras.Sound design and mixing by Michelle Macklem. Music supervisor is Scott Velasquez for Friesan Sync.Fact-checking by Annika Robbins.Senior managing producer is Lata Pandya.
Managing producer is Olivia Weber, and coordinating producer is Heather Beloga.Executive producers are George Lavender, Marshall Louie, and Jen Sargent for Wondery.
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