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From Wondery, I'm Jennifer Portman, and this is Over My Dead Body, Gone Hunting.
Baby, I'm guilty, I got his blood on my hands Baby, you're crazy, I never touched that man
When I first started reporting on the Mike Williams story in 2006, my goal was always to help Cheryl Williams find out what happened to her son.And in the years that followed, we found out some answers.
But even now, there are questions that still linger.Questions about whether Brian was telling the whole truth about what happened.
How were you able to get a man that's 175 pounds, dead weight, into the back of your
How much Denise actually knew about everything?
And why Denise acted the way she did over the years?
She said, screaming at me, I don't ever want to hear Mike's name again.I don't ever want to know anything you're doing about Mike again.I have to get on with my life.
which is exactly why I'm excited to be joined by two guests to help me dissect the actions of Denise and Brian.My first guest is Candace DeLong, host of the podcast Killer Psyche.
She's a former FBI profiler and an internationally recognized homicide expert with a background as a psychiatric nurse.
She's been on the front lines of some of the FBI's most memorable and high-profile cases, like the Unabom case and the Chicago Tylenol murders.
My second guest is Dr. Jane Monckton-Smith, professor of public protection at the University of Gloucestershire with a specialty in homicide, coercive control, and stalking.
We'll be talking about some of the lingering questions around how Brian thought he could actually get away with murder, how Denise and Brian's relationship raises questions about coercion, and what Denise's actions, or inactions, tell us about her motivations.
And as you'll hear, my two guests have very different views on the case. My first guest is Candice DeLong, host of the podcast Killer Psyche, and a former FBI profiler.Hey, Candice, it is really exciting to speak with you.
I was like, I wasn't familiar with your podcast before, and it's really cool, and I just love your wealth of experience in this realm, such a fascinating career that you've had, so a real pleasure.
Well, thank you, and I love Over My Dead Body.I liked this one so much, I listened to it twice.
Oh, you're kidding.That's fantastic.Awesome.I love that.It was a story that I've lived with for a long time.
I know on your podcast, you get into like the psychology behind some of these, you know, most notorious killers and lend some insight into where these motivations that to us normal people seem so aberrant.
I'd love to get your insights into some of these characters who I know you have not delved into as deeply as some of your other cases, but certainly can lend some insight here.
In his testimony, Brian says that it was him and Denise who planned this murder together.He refers to them as Bonnie and Clyde, kind of.I'd love to get your thoughts on the dynamic of couples who kill.
Well, the most important thing about killer couples, they don't have to be a romantic couple, two people paired up to kill someone. they feed off of each other.
And since they're both going in the same direction, meaning they're motivated to take someone's life for whatever reason, no one's going to pump the brakes on that.It's like, oh yeah, that's a good idea.
And, you know, couples of any kind, but especially romantic couples, they're always trying to please each other.And clearly, Whoever brought it up first, the other one didn't go, are you out of your mind?And start looking for an offering.
That did not happen, which is why we're here today.
Okay, so let's go to Brian really quickly.Here we've got a guy who's got no criminal record.He comes from a good family.He's not like super, you know, he's not getting a med degree, whatever, but you know, he's a basically decent human being.
He's a hunter, he's a normal person.How does someone like that go from that person to a person who shoots his friend in the face with a shotgun?
Well, he was not a career criminal.He didn't have a history of juvenile delinquency.No, he was a decent guy.And then circumstances presented themselves.Emotions came to the surface that he'd never felt before.
Affairs, extramarital affairs are hot as lava. They're hotter than a regular relationship had they met when they were single.Why?Because it's forbidden love.
And people that have had affairs say, oh yeah, I can't believe the way I acted in that relationship.It wasn't me.
And it's not unusual, Jennifer, for married people that have extramarital affairs to divorce their spouse, marry the person they're having an affair with, and guess what doesn't work out? That relationship.That relationship.
And the reason is it's not real life.When people are having affairs or even not affairs, like a legitimate relationship, but it's long distance, you see each other maybe once a month or every, what do you do when you're together?
It's all wine and roses and wonderfulness.And then you go back to your regular life. And it looks to me like maybe that's what happened to these two.I think probably both of them got very, very caught up in it.
And it's no surprise to me, things started slowly to unravel.Why wouldn't they?Look at the enormous secret they shared.And it was a shameful secret.
Yeah, I mean, I was always been so curious how you could keep a secret like that for so long.Can you talk a little bit about that kind of psychological stress and what that means?And I mean, is this sort of the inevitable result?
Like, how do you keep those secrets?It always, to me, was like, OK, they're married now.And as long as the one doesn't turn on another and there's no physical evidence, this crime could have never been solved.
Do you think that that break was something that you know, it was inevitable, or I mean, obviously, it was the break in the case, right, that he thought that she was going to turn on him.
Before that, he was paranoid about her, though.Right, right.He was, what, logging the number of hours she watched television?What?Checking her credit card, everything.Well, why would he trust her?He saw how she deceived her husband, Mike.
That's not unusual.When somebody leaves someone they're committed to, marriage or not, and goes with someone they were cheating with, the person they were cheating with becomes suspicious of them.Why?Well, they know that person is a cheater.
It's kind of a problem.I have obviously like lingering questions about things I've thought about this story for a long time.
One of the things that, you know, Brian's, when Brian makes his confession on the witness stand, when he gives his proffer, he's very emotional.He tells this, you know, very scene-setting kind of story, walks through the whole horrificness of it.
I'm going to play you a little clip of that right now.
He started to yell.And I didn't know, I didn't know, I didn't know how to get out of that situation.
it's just incredibly chilling as he recalls how he killed Mike.And then when he's cross-examined by Denise's attorney, he's sort of like, the tenor really changes.Is that normal for someone in that position for him to, you know, kind of, okay.
Yeah.It is normal, not just for someone in his position, meaning he's talking about having killed someone that was the husband of a woman he was having an affair with.It's not unusual.I've seen it a gazillion times where
someone on the witness stand responds warmly and much better to the friendly person they're being questioned by.Could be a prosecutor, could be the defense attorney, but it's not unusual for their demeanor to change.
There was that moment which we learned, which I learned when Brian gave the proffer about what had happened to Mike when he confesses to the killing, that he says that he never actually told Denise exactly what happened. What do you make of that?
I mean, does that give her, like, plausible deniability about things?Or that's just this weird little thing to me.
I have thoughts about that.And my answer is Brian shot his best friend. and his lover's husband in the face with a shotgun.That means his face was obliterated.There was nothing left.Who does that?
I'm imagining, it's my imagination, he might have been horrified at what he did. but not horrified enough that it stopped him.But it was such a horrible thing to do.
Even if he'd shot Mike in the chest and he drowned in the water because of the shotgun, it wouldn't be as horrible.Condemnation from society for what he did.You shot someone, let alone your best friend, in the face?He removed
the essence of Mike Williams by doing that.Mike Williams was gone. Our face is it.Our face is our personality.Our face is what the world sees of us.
The things that come out of our mouth is what people hear us saying, and a million other things that I don't need to explain.And he destroyed that.So I can see why he was reticent to tell Denise.Like, she might not love me if she knows what I did.
Just a thought?Yeah, and she certainly wasn't asking, and then she kind of didn't want to know, right?Because there was this whole idea that this was God's plan, or that's like, yeah, I want to talk about that.
Yes, please.This is certainly not the first, nor will it be the last premeditated spousal murder where the guilty parties invoke God's forgiveness as it's okay.We don't have to tell anyone and say we're sorry.
We only have to ask for God's forgiveness.Additionally, it's not the first time.When they were planning, they said, well, if God wants Mike to live, he'll stop this plan we're putting in motion. I've heard that before.Really?Really.
In fact, I've heard it three times from people that committed murder.And I was raised Catholic.I'm not devout, but it is a branch of Christianity.That's not how things work.That is not how things work.
Look, you know, Jennifer, if somebody wants to justify something they're doing that's wrong, they're going to do it. You know, it's just it's not that hard to justify.We do it all day, every day in our lives.
even your sleeping light, or hitting the alarm one too many times.It's like, well, I really needed that extra sleep, you know?
What do you make of, in Brian's testimony, when at that one point when he says Denise was in his head when he shot Mike, what do you make of that?
Maybe he was thinking, oh my God, how am I going to tell Denise I just shot the face off of her, the man she married that's the father of her child.Maybe that's what he was thinking. Maybe he was thinking, this is for Denise.I love her.
I want to be with her the rest of my life.I had to do that.
We know Brian's a murderer and a liar, but do you believe his statements there?Do you believe him on that count?
Yes.Yes. Yeah.He had, first of all, they corroborated as much as they could.
For our listeners, what a proffer is, when somebody makes a deal with the prosecution, somebody in trouble, they make a deal with the prosecution, and basically the accused is going to be granted a deal only if they
tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.And that means providing information the police didn't ask. When I say whole truth, it means say, well, did you bury him in the backyard?Well, yeah, I did.Well, why didn't you tell me that?
You didn't ask me.No, a proffer means you have to say everything and anything related to this issue or the deal's off the table and you're going to prison for the rest of your life.So that's pretty good motivation to not lie and be forthcoming.
But I think he was, I mean, why didn't he at that point say, yeah, it was my idea?He already had a deal on the table if he told the truth, but he didn't.He said, and one day we just said, well, what about other alternatives to divorce?
We all know what that is.There's only one alternative to divorce.Well, there's a few.One alternative to divorce, not murder, would be separation. But there's only one alternative to divorce if you don't want everyone to know the truth.
And that is, they thought the answer was murder.
Yeah, and it is true with Brian's proffered, that if they find out that he lies, that anything about it is not true or that he lied, it's done, it's coast.Yeah, exactly.
It's all over.Any proffered, they're all the same.They are all the same.
Candace, thank you so much for speaking with me.This has been incredibly enlightening to get your thoughts and really super fascinating.I really, really appreciate your time.
Well, I'd like to thank you for sticking with this case for so, so many years.And this podcast was, I couldn't get enough of it.Couldn't get enough of it.
And like I said, I went and listened to it twice, and it was even so much more enlightening the second time.So thank you.Thanks, Candace.You're welcome.
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My next guest is Dr. Jane Monckton-Smith, Professor of Public Protection at the University of Gloucestershire and a coercive control expert.Hi, Jane.I'm so happy to e-meet you here.Your work is so important.
And as someone who has done a lot of reporting on domestic violence homicides and these kind of issues, just your insights are tremendous.And I feel very fortunate to have your ear to give some input into this Mike Williams case.So thank you so much.
Thank you so much for asking me.
You know, I've watched your TED Talk on coercive control, and, you know, that is just fascinating, and you are an expert in this field.Can you, for people who aren't familiar with that term, can you kind of describe what we mean by coercive control?
So I would say the easiest way to understand it is to see it as a pattern of behavior designed to trap someone in a relationship. like a hostage situation.And if you think of it like that, it all starts to make sense.
I know in your TED Talk, you talked about sort of the seven stages.Can you run through those just, you know, real briefly at this point to give people an idea of that?
Well, that's a piece of research that I did.We worked out that there are eight very clear stages from somebody existing, if you like, until the point that somebody gets killed.So those eight stages are one, the history of the person,
Very, very important because people who are coercively controlling are like it in all their relationships.The second stage is when they meet somebody who they want to be in a relationship with.The third stage is what that relationship is like.
Then we start getting into the territory where things might start getting more dangerous.So the fourth stage is what we call the trigger stage.
Something happens that makes this person feel like they're losing the control that they've been building up in this relationship.The fifth stage is their response to that trigger.How do they behave?What do they do?We call that escalation.
The sixth stage is homicidal ideation, but we could call that like a change in thinking when they start to see things in terms of somebody's going to die.The seventh stage is the planning stage.I think that's pretty self-explanatory.
And then we have the homicide, and that can play out in various different ways.But that's the eight stages.
You have listened to the podcast that just came out that we just finished. What is your assessment?How would you describe Denise and Brian's relationship and do you see elements of coercive control in that relationship?
I found the podcast absolutely fascinating and when you listen to all the different her assessments of Brian especially, he follows those eight stages in the most classic way.
I mean, it's almost like he had them in his handbook and he thought, right, here's one, here's two.There's not a doubt in my mind that he is excessively, coercively controlling.And he's got that extra danger as well, where he cannot take rejection.
So I just feel like the criminal justice system got it a bit wrong.That's just, you know, that I felt a sadness with that, really, I can say that I think he was very, very lucky to get what he did in terms of years.
You know, one of the questions has always been, and certainly Denise's defense, one of the arguments there is that this was all Brian and, you know, he was the controlling one.
Is that kind of how you read this, that he was the dominant, I guess, partner in this crime?Or can you elaborate on that a little bit more?
Looking at what's been said about Brian and his behaviour, and that's multiple people saying it, it's not just Denise saying these things, it's corroborated.I would say that he is, yes, absolutely the controlling one, the dominant one.
I think he dominated the entire group, but he especially dominated Denise. what he would allow her to do, what he wouldn't allow her to do.And then seeing the massive escalation when she attempted or did multiple times try and end that relationship.
He was a highly dangerous man, even way back when.And if you've matched what he was doing to the eight stages, I think you could have got to stage seven and said, this guy's at stage seven, we've got to do something.
Interesting, yeah.So it's quite predictable that we would see with divorce looming and his growing desperation, Denise might say something.
Is it not surprising at all that that kidnapping scene played out as their marriage was pulling apart more and more?
I don't think he was that worried whether she was going to say anything or not.I don't think that was the concern in the front of his mind.What I saw was a man who was saying, you will not leave me and I will do
anything to make sure either you stay, and if you don't, the punishment will be severe.
I mean, obviously, that kidnapping was pivotal in this whole case, right?This had been a cold case for a really long time, and that really was a turning point, right?Did you buy that he was going to kill himself?
Do you feel that she was at serious risk of being killed by him during that kidnapping, and that that was something that could have happened there?
Well there's two things there I'd like to address.The first one is the suicide threats.
One of the things we know from all the research that has been done, and I have looked at hundreds and hundreds and hundreds literally of cases, and one of the high risk markers is a man who threatens to take his own life
at any point in the relationship at all.So according to the things that were said in the podcast, he had been threatening to take his own life before Denise even said she was going to leave him.
He was saying, if you ever leave me, I will kill myself.That is a really, really high risk marker.And when I'm training the police in this, we always say, if you hear a suicide threat, you interpret it as a homicide threat.
The kidnapping, that was him with his last chance, last chance thinking, right, you know, this is the last, last chance that I'm gonna give her to come back to me.That's all it was about.You're coming back.You're my property.I own you.
I trapped you in this relationship.How dare you escape?And that was him reaching the very, very highest stages before killing someone.And of course, it's not always the victim of the control that gets killed.
Are you surprised that Denise went to the police after that kidnapping incident?
Well, I think she'd stopped herself going to the police a lot throughout the relationship, hadn't she?I think when she went to the police after the kidnapping, I think she thought that she was probably close to death herself.
And the thing about coercive control, it's based on fear.So somebody can control you, but how do they do that?
And nine times out of 10, it will be by making you worried or frightened to leave the relationship, because you know, if you do that, things could get really, really scary.
And so there's all these rules in the relationship, and if you break the rules, there's going to be a punishment.
And so over the years, Denise would have learned what he was capable of, and she would have become increasingly frightened of upsetting him or challenging him.And I think she wasn't just frightened.
I think she was terrified of him, absolutely terrified of him.
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There have been a lot of conversation about how Denise behaves, that she's kind of flat, not giving any emotion, not behaving as like we would expect a normal grieving widow to, or a normal person in her position.
Can you talk a little bit about that and why that might be?
You said it there, didn't you?She didn't behave as we would expect.So we imagine ourselves in that situation and we think, well, I'd have done this or I'd have done that.But you might not be subject to coercive control.
I was a police officer many years ago and a story I like to tell, which I do think hits the nail on the head, if you like.We went to a domestic abuse call and I was very, very new in the job.I had only been out of training for weeks.
And we went to this young girl who had been hit in the head with a lump hammer.So she was with two paramedics and they were saying, please get in the ambulance, come with us to the hospital.You could have a fractured skull.
Her boyfriend who had done it, he fled the scene. And she wouldn't get in the ambulance, just sat there really, really calm, didn't say anything to us.And I said to my sergeant, you know, wow, what's that all about?And he said to me,
get used to it, Jane.It's how they behave.It's what they're like.And he was saying, they behave in ways I don't understand.And that's really what you've just said, isn't it?
She's behaved in a way that we don't expect and I didn't understand at the time.So there's this really calm woman.
thinking to herself, I may have a fractured skull, but it's safer to go with that and stay at home than it is to go to the hospital and get medical help.That's how frightened she was.And it's what we call chronic fear. rather than immediate.
Immediate fear is when, you know, what we expect, that's what we expect.But chronic fear is years and years and years built up.It's part of your life.You're just managing your safety by being calm and not winding anybody up.
trying to manage the situation for yourself.
I understand what you're saying.You know, you can't expect normal reactions out of people who've been living for years in these very abnormal relationships and unhealthy relationships.
So do you not believe what Brian said on the stand and what he pledges was the truth, that he and Denise planned Mike's murder together?
Not wholly.No, I don't believe it.No, I don't.I've met lots of these killers. and they're very manipulative and they're very plausible.And we, do you know what we end up doing every time is feeling a little bit of sympathy for them.
And that's the danger.And then we turn on the victims.They do it all the time to the police, the police turn up and they say, well, it's not, I'm not the bad guy.It's her, she started it.So I don't think his story held together that well.
I really don't. It may be that they'd had those conversations, but they'd have come from him.This is just my opinion.
They'd have come from him and she may have tolerated the conversation, not challenged him on it, but not actually believed that he would actually do it.And she did resist it, didn't she?
When he said he was going to do it, she said she tried to stop him.I think that he He has exaggerated her part in this to punish her.
How then do you put Denise's not letting Cheryl see the grandchild and being so angry about there being a criminal investigation and all those, and the life insurance and all those other things that sort of came up in the trial is like, and the jurors said that they pointed to in the judge and sentencing of Denise as to, like, these were big red flags for them.
I know it's a complex case.This isn't just simply black and white, is it?It's not one thing or the other.I think that, like I said, I go back to, I think Denise had some part in these conversations.
I don't think she had the part that Brian says she did.I could be wrong, but I'm just looking at the hundreds of cases I've looked at and how these people behave. And I think she was a bit trapped in this situation.
And I think there is some guilt there with Denise.She says it's a moral guilt, doesn't she?But if you look at the two people involved in this, Denise, who has, all right, let's just be real.People have affairs.They do.
It's a fairly normal human behavior.We cannot be surprised when people have affairs, can we? Okay, it's wrong, it's morally bad, all of those things, but it's not unhuman.Now let's look at Brian.
Violent, controlling, domineering, uses weapons, threatens suicide, can't handle rejection, those things are not.So you put these two people together, who's the dangerous one? really, really, who's the dangerous one?
And that's, that's what I always come back to.And we are listening to the testimony of the dangerous, manipulative one, and believing it, because Denise doesn't behave like we want her to.It's It is maybe an opinion that's gonna upset some people.
I think that on either side, they're people.I mean, it's a legit thing to ask.
That's one of the things that, you know, during the trial, you know, you're gonna believe this guy who shot his best friend in the face and, like, kept it secret for 17 years?
Like, is he really a reliable witness here and you're hinging everything on this?
I would just say how much can we believe the testimony of a man who's getting immunity as well because of his testimony?I think it makes it very, very implausible. Mm-hmm.
I mean, the case was never handled the way it should have been handled from the get-go.They took for granted that he was just a missing hunter.By the time people started thinking, well, why didn't his body float?
They trampled all over what would have been the crime scene.They gave things back to, turns out, Brian and Brian's dad.It's just really sad.Things could have gone differently in so many ways.
I really do believe that if we had a better understanding of coercive control and the way it escalates, because I think that after Mike died, Denise was completely trapped.We know there was control, so she already had a level of fear of him.
Now she knows that he's killed someone, because she would have known that he did it.How terrifying that you're in a relationship, that you're already frightened of the man and then you know what he's done.
You can't help but think, if I rock this boat, I could be next.
Mm-hmm.And that, you know, as you say, that she's involved in some of the conversations, and obviously, she had to be involved in the life insurance.She had to have gone along with pieces of this for the whole thing to work.
But, I mean, if you look at it from your point of view, that's all part of the coercive controlling relationship anyways.Like, he could have been like, this is what we're gonna do with the life insurance policy.She's like, okay.
You know, because we don't know.We don't see what's inside these relationships fully between two people.Only the two of them know exactly what went on there.
Yes, only the two of them know, but we absolutely do know from his behaviour that he is one of the most dangerous types of coercive controlling person.
I think that you quite cleverly pulled out a lot of the evidence of coercive control and in a way that made my spine go cold.I think because of the work I do and because of, you know, the way that I specialize in coercive control homicide.
But not everyone would see them necessarily as high-risk markers.The birthing class, what a high-risk marker for coercive control.He was controlling the whole group, wanting to own it, wasn't he?
The podcast really, really helps you track through those eight stages.And that's something that isn't part of public discussion in America.It's much more part of public discussion in the UK and Europe, but not in America.
And I think it might make the conversations around this case in your podcast even more complicated.If people were able to say, oh, my goodness, yes, it could be that.It could be that as well.
Well, and then the idea that he gets 20 years for The kidnapping of Denise, and she gets 30 years for the murder of Mike, you know, that's always been a thing that obviously has not sat well with people.
It was quite extreme to complete immunity from murder.He was the one in charge.He was the dominant personality.
But I will say again, I think that Denise got too many years, and he didn't get enough years.
Well, Jane, thank you so much for talking with me today.You really opened up a different and provocative view of this case, and I really appreciate it.It's really great to have this viewpoint and this kind of expertise brought to this case.
So thank you so much and for staying up so late.
Thank you for having me.It's been brilliant.
From Wondery, this is a bonus episode of Over My Dead Body Gone Hunting.This episode is hosted by me, Jennifer Portman.Producer is Denise Chan.Senior producer is Russell Finch.Production assistants by Evangeline Barras.
Sound design and mixing by Jay Rothman.Music supervisor is Scott Velasquez for Freesound Sync. Fact-Checking by Annika Robbins.Senior Managing Producer is Lekta Pandya.Coordinating Producer is Heather Beloga.
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