Wondery Plus subscribers can binge the entire series and listen to exclusive bonus episodes of Over My Dead Body.Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.
Everybody, you're joining us at a great time.The trial of Denise Williams is about to begin.This is day one.This woman who's on trial for plotting the murder of her husband 18 years ago, she is claiming that she's completely innocent.
She has nothing to do with this.This is going to be a case to follow.Now, we're going to take a break.We'll be right back.
The trial of Denise Williams was one of those sensational events that seems almost scripted for cable TV. There was a cold case, a love triangle, a life insurance payout.And now a jury was going to decide whether Denise Williams was guilty of murder.
I was at that trial, of course.How could I not be?The story of Mike Williams had been part of my life for 12 years at that point.I had to see how it was going to end.And I had genuinely no idea how it would end.Nobody did.
because the state had no physical evidence of Denise's involvement, no intercepted phone calls, no surveillance footage putting Denise in an incriminating place at an incriminating time.
Prosecutors had called multiple witnesses, but really, their entire case came down to the words of just one man.
Good afternoon.Please introduce yourself to the jurors. Brian Winchester.
It was late afternoon in December of 2018 when Brian Winchester shuffled into the courtroom wearing a Navy jail jumpsuit.His handcuffs were connected to a chain around his waist.
So when he swore to tell the truth, he couldn't raise his right hand past his stomach.
Mr. Winchester, do you know or did you know Mike Williams?Yes, sir.
Brian was being questioned by prosecutor John Fuchs.He was the assistant state attorney who had given Brian a deal of immunity in exchange for information about Mike's disappearance.The prosecutor asked Brian to start at the very beginning.
Prior to 2000, how did you know Mike Williams?
Mike and I went to high school together. and got to know each other very well.We were very good friends.We continue to be friends all through college and all through getting married.
Brian told the court Mike and Denise and Brian and Kathy stayed close right into adulthood.But then something changed.
We started going out to bars and concerts and drinking and doing a lot of things that we didn't really do while we were all in college when probably it's more appropriate to do those sorts of things.
And I remember one night in particular, we started talking about sex a lot, the four of us.
So after we started talking about sexual things and things that married couples shouldn't be talking about with each other, I think that's when the spark kind of started between the two of us.
The two of us, meaning Brian and Denise.Brian said he'd never been attracted to Denise before.After all, they'd been friends since preschool.And now they were both married to each other's best friends.Maybe it was just a drunken evening.
But then, one night, Brian and Kathy and Denise and Mike were going to a club near the Florida State University campus.
We pulled up on Tennessee Street and Denise and I jumped out of the car and left Mike and Kathy to go park the car.
Brian said he and Denise were standing there, alone, on the sidewalk by the entrance to the club.Mike and Kathy would be walking up to them any minute.Something about that moment, though, just felt electric.
Brian and Denise locked eyes, and something just happened.
We, like, kissed each other and made out.
What had just been a spark was now something more.
Later that night, after Kathy and I went home and Mike and Anise went home, she and I got on the phone together.And we basically spent the whole night talking to each other on the phone.And we just really connected.
And we had a lot of sexual talk and had phone sex and that sort of thing.And that's kind of what just started the whole ball rolling with her and I. It only got more heated from there.
So we started meeting very regularly and having sex very regularly.We started meeting in hotels during the workday, meeting whenever we had the opportunity, if Mike was at work.
We would meet at Home Depot parking lot or meet behind Kaiser College, leave a vehicle and go to her house or go to my house, depending on how long she could be away from work.Eventually we started going on trips together.
We took trips to New York, South Beach.
Remember when Mike found a suspicious $3,000 cash advance on his and Denise's visa statement?Well, this is what it was really for.
She'd been taking cash withdrawals out of the ATM, which I knew was for travel for us when we would go out of town.But he kind of thought it might be for drugs or something.
They continued their affair in fancy hotels, living a kind of fantasy life together.Then they'd come back to Tallahassee, go back to their homes with their spouses.They knew that couldn't go on forever.
We eventually started talking about options and ways that we could be together.
Divorce, of course, would have been the obvious option.
Denise, because of the way she was raised, because of her pride, I guess I can't say all the reasons, but she did not want to get divorced.
Ryan told the court Denise was worried she would lose custody of her daughter.
But she still had a desire for us to be together, which narrowed the options even further.
So in those stolen moments together, Bryan said they started to whisper about another option.
I think it was gradual.The more we were together, the more we wanted to be together, the more we griped about Kathy and Mike, the more we wanted to be together, it just kind of, it just snowballed.
What if Mike was somehow just gone? From Wondery, I'm Jennifer Portman, and this is Over My Dead Body, Gone Hunting.
Baby, I'm guilty.I got his blood on my hands.Baby, you're crazy.I never touched that man.
This is episode six.It's gotta be Eve. Brian Winchester sat at the witness stand rocking gently.He had spent the last 20 minutes telling his version of his affair with Denise, almost without emotion.
And now, in that hushed courtroom, with his eyes fixed on the floor, he finally began to tell the story of what he said happened to Mike. It was the year 2000.
Brian and Denise were three years into their affair, and Brian said they began to talk about options.They knew Mike worked a lot, sometimes well into the night.Maybe something could happen there.
We could make it look as if he got shot in some type of robbery or something up at his office.
But that would kick off a homicide investigation, and homicide investigators were almost certain to dig into their lives and alibis.Any small slip-up, and they'd end up in prison for life.Maybe they could stage an accident instead.
Me and Kathy and Denise and Mike would go out in a boat on the Gulf, and basically, Kathy and Mike would be pushed overboard
And somehow, Denise and Brian would find a miraculous buoy offshore while the boat sank on its own.
Make it look like we had an accident on the water and that Denise and I had survived the accident.
But that plan meant killing Kathy, too.
I had no desire whatsoever for anything to happen to Kathy.But silently to myself, I was never going to allow anything to happen to my son's mom,
So that plan was out.Brian told the court they changed the plan, one that would leave Kathy out of it.
So another scenario that we came up with was Mike and I going on a hunting trip together, and there being an accident where both he and I ended up in the water, and he drowned and I did not.
They began to game it out.
Denise liked this idea because we could feel better about ourselves if there was a chance that he could make it out of it.
He would probably drown.After all, that was the idea.But maybe something miraculous would happen.
I think there was even talk about, you know, well, it'll be up to God what happens and not us.It won't be a murder.It'll be, you know, an accident.
So it was decided Brian would stage a tragic accident on a hunting trip.And now that they'd decided how they were going to do it, Brian said, they needed to figure out when.
There were a lot of things that were kind of pressuring us for this to happen.
One being the life insurance.
Mike had intended for that policy, the $500,000 policy, to lapse.
Getting the money from that life insurance was part of the plan.
Behind his back, Denise paid one more premium period.We kept it going, and we knew we weren't going to be able to keep it going perpetually, that he would eventually see this money.
And then, he said, there was the simple fact that Denise just couldn't keep the pretense going much longer.
He was getting angrier and angrier about the fact that she wasn't having sex with him.I think Mike made it pretty clear that this anniversary trip, it was going to be expected that it was time for them to start having sex again.
So there was the insurance policy, the anniversary trip, and on top of that... It had to be during the duck season.
There's only certain days that you can actually go hunting in duck season. We knew our window of opportunity was closing, basically.
Brian told the court they settled on a weekend in December.Brian and Mike would go out to Lake Seminole on a duck hunting trip, just like they'd been doing since they were teenagers.
Denise really didn't have to do a whole lot other than come up with an alibi for herself and make sure that Mike went.I had to do more, obviously.
Denise's alibi would be that she was at home taking care of her and Mike's daughter, Ansley.That would be real and rock solid.Brian would have to work harder to have an alibi.
He would take Mike out to the lake, make him drown, and then hightail it back to Tallahassee.
The plan was that all this would occur very early in the morning and I would have time enough to get back and meet my father-in-law to actually go on a hunting trip with him.
It was a plan, maybe not a great one.But then, just before midnight, just a few hours before they were supposed to leave on their trip, Mike called Brian.
He said, I can't go.Denise has called me.She doesn't want me to go on the trip.
As soon as he got off the phone, Brian said he called Denise.
What is going on?I mean, because this isn't something you need to be wishy-washy about.
Brian put it plainly for Denise.This was their chance, maybe their only chance.
look, either we're going to go forward with this or we're not.I mean, we're either going to be together or we're not.Basically, it was just a cold feet kind of thing.And she got cold feet at the last minute.
At that point, the prosecutor interrupted Brian.Had he been pressuring Denise?
Pressuring her. I don't think it was pressuring her as much as stating the facts of this is the reality of the situation.If you want this to happen, this is the best time for it to happen.
I was not happy about the fact that we had made these plans and I had committed that this is what was going to happen.And then at the last second, she backed out.I didn't understand that.
Later that week, they met at one of their secret meeting places, a boat ramp at Lake Jackson, north of Tallahassee.Brian told the court they talked it through again.
we decided that this is what we're going to do.We're not going to back out of the last minute.And in a sick sort of way, you know, it was kind of like, well, if God wants this to happen, this is what's going to happen.
Because the plan again was that it was going to be an accident and there would be a chance that he could get out of it.
Shortly after, Brian called Mike as normal.They talked almost every day.The hunting trip was back on.
I had told him that we were going to go to a secret special spot to go hunting and that he needed to bring his waders.
Waiters were key to Brian's plan.He was going to make sure Mike was wearing his waders when he pushed him into Lake Seminole.The waders would weigh Mike down like a pair of concrete boots, pull him to the bottom, ensure that he would drown.
It was pitch black, hours before the sun would come up, when Brian and Mike met up.
So I met him at the gas station, and I told him when he drove up, I was real paranoid about phones and him calling me and there being a record of him calling me.
So I told him that my battery was dead on my phone, because normally we would have called and talked to each other.So I followed him over to the lake.He had his boat behind his Bronco, and I followed him in my white Suburban.
For the next 50 minutes, Brian tailed Mike along the road to Lake Seminole, thinking about what he was about to do.Mike and Brian pulled their trucks off the road next to the boat ramp.
Their headlights shined into the water, lighting up the hydrilla and lily pads floating on the surface.They got out of their vehicles, and Brian told Mike to get moving.
I told him something like, we're running late, we need to go ahead and put our waders on here and now before we get in and go.And so we both did that.
Mike put on his waders and hopped into the bow.Brian was driving the boat from the back, steering them to a deeper area of the lake, a couple hundred yards from the landing.Then it was time.
I pretended something was wrong with the motor or the weight in the boat was off or something, but I basically stopped the boat and got him to stand up.And when he did, I pushed him into the water.
Mike was in the lake.His waders were filling up.In a few seconds, he'd be plunging down toward the bottom, toward his death, down toward Brian and Denise's life together.
He was, like, struggling.And the motor of the boat was still running.And I pulled off just a little bit to get kind of away from him so that he couldn't reach back into the boat.
But as Brian pulled away and looked at Mike, he saw there was a big problem.
He was taking the waders and the jacket off. And he got those off that area of the lake.There's a lot of stumps that come up out of the water.And he swam over to one of the stumps and held on to it.And he was panicking, and I was panicking.
And none of this was going well.I thought it was going to go. He started to yell.But I didn't know how to get out of that situation.
Brian claimed that his plan with Denise had always been to let God decide if Mike should live.If this wasn't a sign from God, then what was? Maybe Brian could try to laugh this all off as some kind of joke gone wrong.
Maybe it would ruin his friendship with Mike.Still, you don't go to prison for pushing your buddy into a lake.But Brian wasn't thinking about that.He wasn't thinking about a way out.He wasn't thinking about God.
And so I had my gullet in the boat.
And, uh, So I loaded my gun, and I just made one or two circles around.And I ended up circling closer towards him.And he was in the water.And as I passed by, I shot him.
On the witness stand, Brian wiped his eyes with the tissue.He stared at the courtroom floor.He looked like he was in pain.It seemed like, in his mind, he was back there on that lake.
There was a bright flash that the boat was moving as this happened. So I turned back around and came back to where he was.Anne.Got to the stump.
Mike was floating just beneath the surface.
I reached down.And I grabbed ahold of him.I drug him in the water.Over to that. dirt ramp and left the boat, left him, ran back down to where our trucks were parked.
He drove over to the landing and backed up to the edge of the water.There was a dog crate in the back of his truck.
Let the tailgate down and ended up putting him in the back of my Suburban.And I pushed the boat back out into the water.
Brian looked at the time.None of this had gone as planned.It was now too late to go hunting with his father-in-law.He had to think quick.He needed another alibi.
So I drove home, pulled up into my driveway.I went into the house as quietly as I could.Kathy was still asleep.I didn't want to wake Kathy up. obviously because I had what was in the driveway.
I wanted her to know that I was there, to confirm that I was there, but not wake up and start asking me any questions about what happened.I think I halfway woke her up and said, I'm going to go out with the dogs or train dogs.
What Brian didn't realize was that Kathy had already woken up that morning and seen Brian was gone.It would become a hole in his alibi when Kathy talked to law enforcement. But that was still years away.
On that morning in December 2000, Brian still thought he was fine.So he called his father-in-law.
I decided the best thing for me to do was to pretend that I had overslept, which would kind of prove that I was at my house.And I wanted there to be a record of that.
With that crossed off his list, Brian went to check on his truck.
I was walking behind my truck, and I saw, out of the back tailgate, blood was coming out of the back of my tailgate and dripping onto the driveway.
Not good.Brian rushed to grab a hose to rinse off his driveway.Then he turned to the question of where to put the body.
It had to be close, and it had to be quick.And it had to be, obviously, a location that he wouldn't be failed.
He decided on Carr Lake.It had muddy banks full of muck holes that'll pull a boot clean off.Perfect to swallow up a dead body.Then he went to Walmart.
I bought a shovel, I bought a tarp, and I bought weights.I would use the weights to weigh his body down in the water or mud hole.
Brian drove over to the lake and looked around.A spot near three water oak trees caught his eye.When Brian got home, the one thing he made absolutely sure not to do was call Denise.
We had prearranged that obviously our communication needed to be minimal, both by phone and in person.Obviously, we weren't going to be meeting up in parking lots and having sex.
But eventually, they met up in person.
She and I talked, and there never was a conversation that was like, well, did it all go according to plan?First of all, I didn't want to talk about that because that was not the plan.
What happened with Mike was not the plan that Denise and I had come up with.I didn't want to tell Denise that.She assumed that what we talked about, the plan that we had made, she assumed that that was what had happened.
But the important thing was Mike was out of the picture.And soon enough, they were going to be together. Slowly, they started going public with their relationship.They brought friends into the fold, then family.
They got mixed reactions, but it didn't matter.It was what they dreamed about.
And then we got married in 2005.We were still concerned about the law enforcement side of it, but as time passed and nothing happened, we became less and less concerned about it.
But every time they started to relax, something would happen to put them back into high alert.
Cheryl, you know, never gave up and kept pushing things.And so from time to time, that issue would be raised.And I always wanted to talk about things a lot more than Denise.Denise did not like to talk about anything related to that.
Brian told the court they made a pact.
She would never say anything about me and I would never say anything about her because we felt like as long as neither one of us talked that nobody would ever find out what happened.
We called it our agreement and we were probably pretty arrogantly confident in that agreement.
But over time, Brian started to get less confident.
I was concerned about Denise, if she ever got under that pressure, whether she would hold up to it or not.You know, Kathy actually warned me.
Kathy was trying to get me to talk, but basically she said, you know, you can't trust Denise and she'll throw you under the bus the first chance she gets.
If there was an agreement, it seemed like Denise had kept to it.
She'd never said anything about Mike's disappearance, even after Brian had controlled her bank accounts, tracked her phone messages, even kidnapped her at gunpoint, even when she was given the opportunity to tell law enforcement.
If there was an agreement, then Brian had been the weak one, the one who didn't hold up under pressure, the one who would betray Denise to save his own skin. As his testimony came to an end, the prosecutor asked Brian if Denise was in court.
Now streaming.Welcome to Buy It Now, the show where aspiring entrepreneurs get the opportunity of a lifetime.
I wouldn't be chasing it if I didn't believe that the world needs this product.
In each episode, the entrepreneurs get 90 seconds to pitch to an audience of potential customers.This is match point, baby.
If the audience like the product, it gets them in front of our panel of experts, Gwyneth Paltrow, Anthony Anderson, Tabitha Brown, Tony Hawk. These panelists are looking for entrepreneurs whose ideas best fit the criteria of the four Ps.
Pitch, product, popularity, and problem-solving ability.I'm going to give you a yes.I want to see it. If our panelists like the product, it goes into the Amazon Buy It Now store.
You are the embodiment of what an American entrepreneur is.
Oh my God.Are we excited for this moment?I cannot believe it.Buy it now.Stream free on Freebie and Prime Video.
You don't believe in ghosts?I get it.Lots of people don't.I didn't either until I came face to face with them.Ever since that moment, hauntings, spirits, and the unexplained have consumed my entire life. I'm Nadine Bailey.
I've been a ghost tour guide for the past 20 years.I've taken people along with me into the shadows, uncovering the macabre tales that linger in the darkness, and inside some of the most haunted houses, hospitals, prisons, and more.
Join me every week on my podcast, Haunted Canada, as we journey through terrifying and bone-chilling stories of the unexplained.Search for Haunted Canada on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you find your favourite podcasts.
Bryan's testimony had been full of detail and seemingly agonized confessions.
With the help of prosecutor John Fuchs, Bryan had given the jury an exhaustive account of the planning, execution, and cover-up of the murder of Mike Williams and Denise's part in it.But was any of it true?
After all, here was a man who, by his own admission, had pushed his friend into an alligator-filled lake, then shot him in the head as he clung to a tree stump, who had considered killing his own wife, who had kidnapped his second wife at gunpoint.
Now the jury was being asked to believe that this man was to be trusted.
All rise.Court is now in session.The Honorable Judge James C. Hankinson presiding.
The next morning, Brian took the stand again.Denise's lawyer stood up.
You may proceed, Mr. Way.Your Honor.Mr. Winchester.
Ethan Way was a husky guy with a booming voice and a rapid fire delivery who seemed like he was used to getting what he wanted.
And what he wanted at that moment was to get Brian Winchester to admit his testimony wasn't anything close to the whole truth, which he knew wasn't going to be easy.
I thought he's a psychopathic liar.I thought he was going to be very dangerous.You saw how when he was on the state's testimony, he would cry.He was emotional.And then when I got up to cross-examine him, it's like the switch flipped.
And then he was just very straightforward. You were granted immunity for killing Mike Williams.Correct?I wasn't granted immunity for killing him.I was granted immunity for what I say in court.
Ethan, to be clear, believed Brian killed Mike.He thought Brian was being honest when he said he shot Mike in the face with a 12-gauge shotgun and stuffed his body into a dog crate.
But Ethan was out to separate Brian's confession of his own involvement from anything he said about Denise.
Brian Winchester knows where Mike Williams is buried.Why?Because he buried Mike Williams.He knows how Mike Williams died.Why?Because he killed Mike Williams.What does Denise know?Nothing.Nobody knows what Denise knows.And you can't prove a negative.
So he can come in and say, oh yeah, I did all this.And by the way, I told her and she helped me.Well, how'd she help you?Did she go take a shovel and dig a hole?No.Did she drive out and pick you up?No. Did she help you move a body?No.What did she do?
Well, she told me things.Well, that's not a thing.
As the cross-examination went on, Ethan seemed to be probing for an opportunity.He asked Brian about Mike's state of mind in the days leading up to the murder.Brian told him Mike had been thinking about moving out West.
Okay.But you didn't encourage him to do that instead of kill him.That's what we did, yes.
Well, that's what we did.When you shot Mike Williams at Lake Seminole with a 12-gauge shotgun, was Denise Williams standing there with you?No, she wasn't.She was in my head behind me.She was in your head?Mm-hmm.
Ethan let the moment sink in for the jury.Brian was saying Denise's role in the actual commission of the murder was that Denise was, quote, in my head behind me.
Is it fair to say that over the years you've been obsessed with Denise Williams?
Denise and I were best friends.We were Bonnie and Clyde.We were partners in crime.
Ethan wanted to dismantle that idea, too.If they were Bonnie and Clyde, they would have been equal partners, even if Brian had been the one to pull the trigger.
But Brian had told the jury that Denise wanted Brian to stage an accident to let God decide if Mike should live or die.Instead, Brian had shot Mike at close range, and he never told Denise about it.
Correct. Um, actually, I tried to tell her about it one day and she did not want to know the details.
She told me that she assumed that obviously when his body was never found, uh, that what we had planned did not happen and that it never made sense to her that I was able to get to the shoreline.But he wasn't.But that it was
Okay, as long as we ask forgiveness from God, it was okay for us not to confess it to anybody else.But to be clear, you've never told Denise Williams that you shot her husband.She didn't let me tell her that.No, I didn't want to tell her that.
So Ethan had gotten Brian to admit Denise hadn't been at the scene of the crime, that she never knew Brian was going to shoot Mike, and Brian said he never told her about it afterward.How guilty of a murder conspiracy could she really be?
And if Brian wanted to frame Denise for the murder, he had a cleaner motive.Denise had tried to send him to jail for life for her kidnapping.It was easy to think that he might want to bring her down with him.
But you got one more benefit, didn't you?You got the benefit of seeing Denise Williams arrested, locked up, and brought to trial.
You got revenge for her putting you in the same situation you wanted to put her in.
No, sir.I wouldn't want to put anybody in this situation.She got herself in this situation.
But Brian had a history of leading law enforcement down the wrong path.Why should the jury believe that Brian's testimony about Denise was any different?
Yes, sir.Yes, sir.Yes, sir.
Ethan was happy with how it had gone.
At the end, he answered the two questions that mattered most.Are you a liar?Yes.Are you a murderer?Yes.
And that was his thesis of the case, the thesis he presented to the jury in his closing arguments.The prosecution had gone all in on Brian, and Ethan thought that was strange, because in his estimation,
Brian Winchester is a lying piece of shit who killed his best friend.Absent Brian Winchester, they still have nothing against Denise.They've got Brian Winchester says.That's it.Got no receipts.They've got no phone records.They've got no emails.
They've got no statements.They've got no intercepted communications.They don't have anything.They've got Brian Winchester says.That was it.You take Brian Winchester out of the equation, then you've got absolutely nothing.
If you find Denise Williams guilty, Ethan told the jury, then you're taking Brian at his word.There is no evidence that supports any of the allegations against my client, Ethan said.No evidence for any of the charges.No evidence except for Brian.
Not long after Ethan had finished his statement, the jury headed out of the courtroom to begin deliberations.It was just before noon. I found a quiet spot in the courtroom and settled in for a long wait.I had no idea what was going to happen.
Ethan Way wasn't wrong.The state's case really did hinge on Brian.And Brian was an admitted liar and murderer.The hours started ticking by.Clay Ketchum was there at the courthouse.
So we were upstairs in a conference room up in the state's attorney's office. All of Cheryl's friends were there.And then there must have been 20 or 30 folks that were all gathered waiting.
The general feeling was that the trial had gone well, but there were still a lot of doubts.
They had three counts that they were asking the jury for convictions on.And, you know, the way things go, we were just hoping that they would convict our own one. One count, and so we were just sitting and waiting, you know, waiting and waiting.
And then they called us and said, jury's back.All rise, court is back in session.
Denise sat on the far side of the defense table, obscured by her attorneys.Cheryl sat in the gallery, next to her son Nick, wearing a white sweater and her signature pigtails.
As the jury arrived at the party, would you hand it and avail it, please? State of Florida versus Denise Williams.We, the jury, find as follows.As to count one of the indictment, the defendant is guilty of conspiracy to commit first-degree murder.
As to count two, we, the jury, find the defendant is guilty of first-degree murder.We, the jury, find as follows.As to count three of the indictment, the defendant is guilty of accessory after the fact of first-degree murder.
Guilty on all three counts. Denise stared straight ahead in silence.Friends and family on both sides broke down in tears.
It was just unreal.It's very difficult to describe, but it's an emotional high where you just want to laugh, and yet you want to cry at the same time.So your eyes fill with tears, and you're just ecstatic.
Denise's lawyer, Ethan Way, was disgusted.
A bunch of cackling vultures, just a bunch of vultures, a bunch of people happy that Denise Williams was going to go away for the rest of her life.And it's kind of sick, but that's what I thought.
I looked back because what I could see was the pro state witnesses, those folks in the media, and they're happy that something like that happens.
To him, the friends and family celebrating had just bought into the words of a psychopathic liar.
You know, justice is not, hey, this lady that arguably may or may not have known something gets life in prison.The guy that we just heard two days ago shot his best friend in the face with a shotgun isn't going to have any consequences for this.
Denise was going to prison for life. Was it justice or Brian Winchester's final act of manipulation?
How did Birkenstocks go from a German cobbler's passion project 250 years ago to the Barbie movie today?Who created that bottle of red Sriracha with a green top that's permanently living in your fridge?
Did you know that the Air Jordans were initially banned by the NBA?We'll explore all that and more in The Best Idea Yet, a brand new podcast from Wondery and T-Boy.This is Nick.This is Jack.
And we've covered over a thousand episodes of pop business news stories on our daily podcast. We've identified the most viral products of all time.And their wild origin stories that you had no idea about.From the Levi's 501 jeans to Legos.
Come for the products you're obsessed with.Stay for the business insights that are going to blow up your group chat.Jack, Nintendo, Super Mario Brothers.Best-selling video game of all time.How'd they do it?Nintendo never fires anyone.Ever.
Follow The Best Idea Yet on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.You can listen to The Best Idea Yet early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery+.
By the end of Denise Williams' trial, Ethan Way wasn't the only person in Tallahassee who felt like justice hadn't really been done.Her trial and sentencing had set off a debate.
Denise's friend Blythe Newsom felt there had been double standards at work.
I do think as a woman, she was expected to show more emotion, and she didn't show it.She gets convicted for not showing enough emotion.She must be guilty.She absolutely must be guilty.He can actually do the murder, but we'll let him off.
And there's no outrage about that?
The exact nature of Brian and Denise's relationship hardly came up at trial.It was clearly abusive at points.Could Brian have coerced Denise?
I mean, Denise had to hide from him with her daughter.Did that come up?You know, did any of the hell that she went through, that didn't come up?
For Blythe, everyone had been looking at the wrong person.
No one has ever gotten upset or throwing their arms up in the air saying, this man kidnapped a wife who was trying to get out of the marriage with him. With every intent to kill her, with all of this stuff in the car, nobody ever brings that up.
Nobody brings up the fact that this man who killed his best friend is going to be walking the streets in a matter of years because he got a plea bargain for telling this fabulous story.Why is that okay?
And for some reason, she became the fall guy and the target, not the man who committed the murder.
Instead, as Ethan himself pointed out, the narrative of it all was very familiar.A love triangle, a femme fatale and her obsessive lover.It was almost too Hollywood.
Cameras and media and everybody wanted a piece of it. But nobody wanted to ask any questions.They just liked that narrative of, oh, you know, Denise has got to be the bad lady.Because at this point, Brian's out of it, right?
I mean, it didn't dawn on people for a long time that Brian Winchester, who admitted to killing Mike Williams, was not going to face any legal repercussions for that murder at all.But hey, we got this, got the widow, got the mother of the child.
She's the big baddie here.
For such a shocking crime, it seemed like someone needed to be seen to take the consequences.
I think Denise makes it, it makes a very easy target for people because, you know, oh, it's got to be the wife, right?It's got to be the, you know, it's all Eve's fault.Adam was never going to eat that apple.It's got to be Eve.
Bryan was clearly controlling, maybe even coercive.We'd seen it in the kidnapping, the witness tampering from prison, how he'd acted when Denise was dating Chuck Bunker.
There was something about their relationship that didn't really seem quite the way Bryan had presented it at trial.He'd said they were Bonnie and Clyde, equal 50-50 partners in crime.But was that really true?And if not, had justice really been done?
In 2021, an appeals court decided that it hadn't been done, at least not fully.They overturned part of the jury's verdict.They decided Denise's conviction for murder couldn't stand.Her conviction for conspiracy to commit murder was still upheld.
But the ruling did mean Denise would no longer be facing a mandatory life sentence. A judge would need to sentence her for a second time.There was a chance that Denise could walk free.I was in the courtroom for the resentencing.It was September 2021.
Denise had been in prison for nearly three years by then.She wore a Navy jumpsuit, just like the one Brian wore to testify against her. Her hair had reverted from blonde to its natural brown, straight and long.
When she took the stand, she read from a written statement on the podium in front of her.
I stand before you today convicted by a jury of a heinous crime, conspiracy to commit murder.I understand that you will be sentencing me today based on their decision, but I do want you to know
that I have never and would never want anyone to be murdered, not even the people that want this for me.
What I am guilty of, however, is great moral failure at a time in my life where I chose to make reckless decisions that affected everyone around me.And for that, I'm truly sorry.
I am well aware that no amount of good deeds can bring my husband, Mike, back. and no one out of service to others can stop the pain for everybody who knew him.There's nothing I can do to bring Mike back to his grieving mom and to his brother.
There's nothing I could do to get my daughter or father back.If I could trade my life for his, I would.
Denise finished by asking the judge for a lenient sentence, 21 months, less than two years. With time served so far, it would mean she would walk free that day.She collected her notes and crossed the courtroom to return to the defense table.
Next came Denise and Mike's daughter, Ansley.Ansley had been a baby when her father disappeared.She was a teenager when her mother was found guilty of murdering him.
Now, in her early 20s, Ansley was essentially an orphan, one parent dead and the other in prison.But she said when she was growing up, her mother strived to keep her dad's memory alive.
She always wanted me to meet a man with the same ideals that he had.My mom made sure he was never forgotten and always made me feel his love.She has shown all during my life how much she cares for me and would do nothing to hurt me.
And that was important, because Ansley had also gotten to know Bryan.To Ansley, Bryan was not a man with ideals you wanted to emulate.She saw firsthand how Bryan tried to dominate Denise.
As I got to know Brian and saw his actions daily as he was a figure of authority in my household for many years.It is not that he so much dominated my mother, which he did, but he acted independently of her.
I never once saw him consult with her about anything.He did not ask for her advice or opinions, rather forced his opinions on her.He acted on his own.
He was erratic in his actions, which was most evident when he kidnapped her at gunpoint only because she wanted a divorce.
Growing up, I saw he was impulsive, spur of the moment, and did not care what she had to say or, for that matter, what she felt.
To Ansley, there was no doubt about who the architect of her father's murder was, and it was not her mother.
There is simply no way my mother would conspire with Brian to kill my father because my mother would not choose to purposely cause me pain to endure the emotional pain of his passing.
The next person to speak couldn't reach the podium.A court employee wheeled Cheryl Williams up in between the two tables.It had been 15 years since I first met her.She was now 77, frailer and smaller than I'd ever seen her.
She still had those pigtails, though.She read from a written statement, and I could just picture her writing it out at that little kitchen table where she had kept track of every step in the case.
When I found out on December 20th, 2017 that Mike's body had been found and that he had been murdered, part of me died too.For 17 years, I had hoped that my son was alive and would eventually come home.Now, that hope was dead too.
The coroner sent me a message, Ms.Williams, don't worry, Mike didn't suffer when he died.I disagree.What about the time he's trying to get out of his waders in the freezing waters of Lake Seminole?
What about the time he's clinging to a stump in the dark, knowing his best friend, whom he loved, is going to kill him?Mike suffered horribly.
For the rest of my life, when I try to go to sleep, I see my son clinging to a stump, freezing, wondering why his friend is trying to kill him.I hear him screaming for help.I wasn't there to help him.It will haunt me forever.
Judge Carroll, please don't reduce Denise's prison time even by one day.Please don't show her any mercy.She didn't show my son any mercy.She took him away from his daughter, his family, and his friends.
The judge stood up and walked out, collecting his thoughts for about 20 minutes. When he came back, he said he had read every letter written to him, many of them saying Denise was a good person.
I did read all of the letters from family, friends, and on both sides.And I do not doubt the sincerity of one of them.
But he said the evidence was clear.
I don't find that she was a relatively minor participant in the conspiracy that killed Mike Williams.
In his sentencing, the judge said Denise had taken part in multiple discussions about methods of killing Mike.When she'd had second thoughts the weekend before, she went back on that and agreed to proceed.
She'd secretly paid Mike's insurance premium to stop it from lapsing before Mike's murder and agreed to come up with an alibi.After Mike's murder, she'd also tried to stop Sheryl's campaign by threatening to cut off access to her daughter Ansley.
and there was the way she had acted in the phone call with Kathy.
This is a sad case.This case is a tragedy.This case is a waste, and it didn't have to happen.
The judge sentenced Denise to the maximum.She would remain in prison for 30 years. With credit for time served, Denise is scheduled to be released in 2046.She'll be 76 years old.
Brian cut that deal with prosecutors, and so he'll get out 10 years earlier.He'll be 65.When I think about how this all started more than 20 years ago, I think about Brian's decisions.
How his feelings of forbidden love resulted in the cold-blooded killing of an honest, decent man, and ruined the lives of so many others.Other mothers, fathers, siblings, children, and friends.
I think about Denise's decisions, about what she knew and what she chose to keep silent about.And whether that silence was to protect herself, to protect Brian or to protect herself from Brian.And then I think about Cheryl Williams.
How, if not for that determined mother who persevered through ridicule, bullying, community condemnation, and the loss of a grandchild, the fact that Mike Williams was, in fact, murdered would never have been known.
A chilly mist hung in the air the night we gathered in the parking lot at the Ketchum's Realty Company.Logs burned in fire pits as we sheltered under a tent from the cold rain.
Gosh, we probably had 40 people or so.It was a gathering of people that had been involved in this and an opportunity to say thank you.
Patty Ketchum was emotional that night. The Ketchums had invited everyone who had helped with Mike's case to their office for an informal memorial.
A lot of these people didn't know the Mike we knew.So, you know, we wanted them to see where he'd worked.We had the people that had been involved in the state's attorney's office, the law enforcement people.
We had the guys that were out there digging in the mud so that everybody could meet.
I was there that night, and of course, so was Cheryl.
Cheryl actually spoke.I think we took the mic over to her, and she spoke from her heart and really did think.
Everybody that had contributed to ultimately doing exactly what she had on her poster way back when she was walking in front of the church, and that was helping me find my son. And all of those people that were there helped her find her son.
It's a tragic story, but they did help find him.
We spoke about Mike that night, not his murder.People talked about their memories, his life.And as the rain came down, the setting couldn't have been more fitting.
We all said it's duck weather. Duck weather is cold, and it's rainy, it's miserable.And, you know, Mike would have loved it.
From Wondery, this is the final episode of Over My Dead Body, Gone Hunting, a series about the extremes of love and betrayal.Over My Dead Body, Gone Hunting is hosted by me, Jennifer Portman.This series is written and reported by Eric Barton.
Producer is Denise Chan.Senior producer is Russell Finch.Story editor is Eric Benson. Consulting producer is me, Jennifer Portman.Production assistance by Evangeline Barras.
Additional production assistance by Seth Bodine, Gina Pollock, and Malachi Wade.Series sound design by Michelle Macklem.Sound design on this episode by Joe Richardson. Music Supervisor is Scott Velasquez for Friesan Sync.
Fact-Checking by Annika Robbins.Senior Managing Producer is Lata Pandya.Managing Producer is Olivia Weber and Coordinating Producer is Heather Beloga.Executive Producers are George Lavender, Marshall Louie and Jen Sargent for Wondering.
Sign in
