When we finally had a funeral and a memorial for Nanny, I remember that day.It was the first time I had seen Brittany's sisters.Since all of this had happened, it was the first time I'd seen a lot of family.
I remember even though there was just this overwhelming sense of just sorrow and regret, I still had hope.I was like, okay, finally, I'm going to have my family back now.This is going to fix something.
For a little bit, there was contact, and I don't know if it was the outcome of the trial or how everybody felt after it.That fixing just never, it never came, at least not the way that I thought that it was going to happen.
I was in the courtroom, and that's so sad that the family member was a person that had been harmed and killed, and you could tell that he was going to get away with it.And to hear her talk, it didn't make any sense.
Last week we shared the first installment of Goldie Thornsberry's story.You learned about how she disappeared from Fayetteville, Arkansas in early 1996.Goldie was reported missing after her bank noticed strange activity on her checking account.
When the investigation began, officers went to Goldie's apartment, where they were greeted by one of her daughters, who said Goldie wasn't home. She was traveling to visit family members in other areas of the state.
Multiple relatives were contacted, and they claimed that they hadn't seen or heard from Goldie.Goldie's daughter and son-in-law were later charged with forgery, after it was determined that they were the ones using her checks.
They became the main suspects in Goldie's disappearance.But despite their best efforts, investigators weren't able to find Goldie, or any hard evidence to prove what happened to her.
In 2010, there was a remarkable development in the case, after one of Goldie's former neighbors saw a news story about a Jane Doe, who was found inside of a well in Little Rock in 2000.
He contacted police, and after a DNA comparison came back indicating that it was, in fact, Goldie. they were finally able to move forward with the case.
And while there was a mountain of circumstantial evidence against Rita and Raymond, would it be enough for a conviction?I'm Marissa, and from Wondery, this is episode 460 of The Vanished, Goldie Thornsberry's story, part two, Injustice.
Hey, this is Nick.And this is Jack.And we just launched a brand new podcast called The Best Idea Yet.You may have heard of it.It's all about the untold origin stories of the products you're obsessed with.
Listen to The Best Idea Yet on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.
After Goldie's neighbor, Mike McAvoy, contacted law enforcement in May of 2010, Lieutenant Franklin jumped into action. At that point in time, Goldie's loved ones had been waiting 14 years to find her and to finally get justice for Goldie.
What happened was, upon, you know, discovery of the remains and making the connection with Little Rock, I traveled to the Little Rock Police Department.We compared case files and information.There were certain specifics about Ms.
Thornsberry, like she had a fused back and things of that nature, that initially made me believe that, in fact, it was her. But it wasn't until we got DNA confirmation that my prosecuting attorney was willing to issue a warrant for their arrests.
We did obtain those arrest warrants and traveled to Little Rock and took them both in custody with the assistance of Little Rock police department.Mr. Douglas immediately asked for an attorney and refused to make a statement.However, Ms.
Flowers at that time, whether her name was Rita flowers, we transported her back to Arkansas and she eventually gave a partial statement and then later on.
spoke with her attorney, and her and the prosecuting attorney made an agreement, and she came in and gave a full statement.
For Casey, finding her grandmother was a relief.She had often pondered the various scenarios and theories, and now she finally had answers.However, those answers brought with them the harsh reality of what had happened to Goldie.
At the time that she was found, the area she was found in, it was mostly like a wooded area.When she was found in the well, She had a plastic bag from the Northwest Medical System around the skull, and there was a cord wrapped around the neck.
One of her legs had been cut off.Her hands had been cut off, and they've still never found her hands.Her dentures were missing.
Goldie had been found far from her home, raising questions about why someone would have taken her such a distance.There would have been significant risks involved.What if they had gotten pulled over?
But we know that it's common for people to choose familiar locations when disposing of a body.In part one, you learned that after Rita and Raymond were evicted from Goldie's apartment, they fled the area and were eventually located in Little Rock.
Casey explained that the area where Goldie was found was very familiar to Raymond.
All of Raymond's family lives in West Little Rock, where her body was found.
I think it was around the time that Nanny was reported missing, before they were arrested, they moved in with Raymond's mom, which is also directly across the street from where the body was found.
So there were rumors around West Little Rock with Raymond's family, like around where he lives, around the time of Nanny's disappearance, Close to where his parents live, there was a house that burnt down, supposedly, to get rid of evidence.
And that might have been where their freezer was.But there was also a car fire at Lake Maumelle, which is close to Raymond's parents' family, that could have also had evidence in it.
Casey has seen the crime scene photographs from when her grandmother was found, and she believes that whoever put Goldie in that well must have previously known about the well's existence and believed it was a good place to conceal a body.
It was only five foot deep and three feet wide.That's so small.That's barely big enough to fit her, I would think.Somebody knew it was there.His mom was on the board of that community center or something that was in front of it.
She was a big member in that community and I guess held a lot of functions or something in that center that was by the well.
Learning that Raymond's family lived in the same neighborhood where Goldie was found only intensified Lieutenant Franklin's growing suspicions.
They had been entrenched in that neighborhood for a long time in that community.I think from his grandmother on to his mother, they all lived there in an immediate vicinity in like less than a quarter mile circumference.
Brittany's life was uprooted after Goldie disappeared.Rita and Raymond took her to live with them in Little Rock.Realizing that Goldie was so close to where they were living was extremely disturbing for Brittany to learn.
It was literally right across the street from his dad's house.And when they went to jail, I was living at that house.That's where me and my little brother were.I caught the bus stop two blocks from where she was found every morning.It's awful.
It's hard. how sick people are.She suffered a bad death trying to make up for other people's mistakes and she just couldn't.They're just bad people.
After Raymond and Rita were charged with forgery and later incarcerated, Brittany said that their relationship didn't last much longer.And from there, Brittany's life didn't get any easier.
As soon as they went to jail, they divorced not too long after that because they were divorced while I was still living with Raymond's family because she was still in jail.
It was literally a short amount of time between her getting married, Manny disappearing, and them going to jail.
I wouldn't even say a year because my little brother wasn't born yet and she was only like six or seven months pregnant when they actually had to face charges for that because they didn't go to jail until after Raymond was born.
After this happened, I was a runaway from the time I was like 11 until I was almost 17 when my little sister's dad let me move in because she didn't want no parts of me.
In part one, we discussed Goldie's old neighbor, Mike, who broke this case wide open in 2010.
But back in March of 1996, Mike had spoken to the police and told them that he allowed Rita and Raymond to borrow his vehicle occasionally, until he began to suspect that they had stolen some of his checks.
When Mike came forward in 2010, this became a primary focus of the investigation, because Mike mentioned to them that he had loaned him his vehicle around the same time that Goldie had vanished.
On that particular occasion, they were supposed to bring it back later that night, but they kept it for two or three days.Upon their return, Mike asked them where they had been, and he said they didn't have a good excuse.
Lieutenant Franklin asked Mike if he confronted them about keeping it longer than they had agreed upon, and Mike admitted that he was too intimidated by them to confront them.
Mike recalled that his vehicle was a mess and some items were missing, including his checkbook.When he loaned the vehicle to Rita and Raymond, the seats in the back of his Blazer were up, but now they were down.
He said, like they hauled something off.Mike also remembered that when they borrowed his Blazer, Goldie's car was already gone from the apartment complex. After that time, whenever Mike went to knock on Goldie's door, he only saw Rita.
In fact, he never saw Goldie again.About a week later, he began hearing the stories about Goldie leaving town to visit relatives, and later he learned that she was missing.
Brittany said that she has a very distinct memory of Rita and Raymond borrowing Mike's Blazer that time.They actually went to Little Rock in a vehicle.
I remember this vehicle distinctly because I remember driving down to Little Rock and sleeping in the back of it.When I woke up, Raymond was out of the truck.The doors were locked.We were in some crack neighborhood.He wanted to go buy crack.
I was asleep on the back floor with my bulldog, this bulldog that my nanny gave me.It was a little Campbell's soup bulldog.I took it everywhere with me.
And when I wake up, there's this guy banging on the window, threatening my mom, trying to see like what she's here for.And then eventually we ended up going back up to Fayetteville, I guess, to give him his truck back.
And then we ended up back in Little Rock again.We ended up moving down there so they could get their stuff in order before they had to turn themselves in.
Had Mike's Chevy Blazer been used to transport Goldie's body to Little Rock?Unfortunately, Mike had traded it in around 1997 or 98, but that didn't stop investigators from attempting to find it.
They contacted the dealer that Mike had traded the vehicle to, but they said they only kept records for about 10 years.Investigators turned to DMV records and found the bill of sale from 1997, then went back to the dealership with that information.
The dealers searched their warehouse and found documentation that showed the Blazer was sold to a used car lot a couple of months later.
That dealer searched their records and found that it was sold to a group of men who bought vehicles to take back to Mexico.This posed a new set of roadblocks.But they kept pushing forward.
Investigators contacted NCIC and INS to see what they could dig up on the vehicle.
Then they made their way to the Texas Intelligence Fusion Center, and they said that sometimes they can obtain Mexican vehicle information by emailing their contacts in Mexico.And that's how they located the blazer.
But unfortunately, it was located near the border of Mexico and Guatemala.They weren't able to get it back to the states for forensic testing.
The idea that Mike's blazer was used to transport Goldie remains a theory, but they've never been able to prove it.
Mike let Rita and Raymond borrow his SUV and supposedly they took their freezer out of Nanny's apartment and put it in his SUV and that's what he was borrowing it for, but they think that's how they moved the body in the freezer.
In June of 2010, warrants were issued for Rita and Raymond for first-degree murder.When Raymond was picked up, officers went and knocked on his door.He opened the front door and investigators advised him that Goldie had been located.
They asked him to come with them to the police station, and he said, OK, let me lock the door.They noted that Raymond didn't ask questions.He didn't ask if she was alive.He appeared indifferent about the news and acted like nothing was wrong.
After the investigator explained his Miranda rights, Raymond asked for an attorney.Lt.
Franklin mentioned at the beginning of this episode that after Rita was arrested, she first gave a partial statement, then opened up further after consulting with an attorney.
We were able to obtain an audio recording of Rita's 2010 interview, and it starts out like this.
In 1996, I was an investigative agent who started an investigation to your mother, Goldie Thornsberry's disappearance.
At the time of 1996, you were living at 401 South Lewis with your mother, Goldie Thornsberry, your then husband, Raymond Douglas, and your daughter, Brittany.
During that time frame, and starting in January on through March, we had various contact and various attempted contacts and you had other visits from uniformed personnel and family members concerning the whereabouts of your mother.
Subsequently, during that time frame, there was some of your mother's checks that were in dispute, possibly being forged.
Subsequently, you and Raymond Douglas pled to a deal with the Prosecuting Attorney's Office on forgery second charges, is that correct?
And that was in conjunction with the use of your mother's checks?
During the course of that time, I made a few attempts to talk to you and Raymond and was unsuccessful in actually determining where your mother was or was not.I conducted interviews with you, one mainly in March.
In that interview in March, I think I subsequently arrested you for forgery second. And, of course, in that interview, you gave a few statements, but it was pretty rigid and kind of lacked detail in some of the statements.
Is there any reason for that at that time?Were you under the direction of anybody to say certain things or not say certain things, or it was just self-preservation?
Most of the stuff that I told you back then was what Raymond had told me to say.
Because he didn't want us to get in any trouble, or basically, I guess he didn't want him to get in any trouble.
All right, you guys were arrested, got out on bond, and moved to Little Rock.Is that correct?
Who did you guys move in with in Little Rock?
Who all was living in that home with you?
It was his mother, me, him, Brittany, and I believe his younger brother Randy was living there at the time.
OK.And because you were pregnant at that time, correct?Right.Were you using drugs during this time, Frankie?
What was your drug of choice?
I had smoked weed and used crack both.
Was Raymond a different person when he was on drugs?
So you moved out of La Ronda.Eventually, you have a baby.When is your son born?June 29.All right.So after the baby's born, where did you guys move to from the hospital?
We were back at his mom's house.
In between the child being born and when you first arrived at his mother's house, were there any discussions about your mother?
Were there any discussions with anyone else about your mother?
I mean, conversations would stop whenever I came into the room.I know that he discussed my mother's disappearance with his mom and with his dad, but I was never included in those conversations.
The only person in his family that ever asked me directly anything about my mother was his sister Roberta.
Why do you believe that they were having these conversations if you weren't present?
just bits and pieces of stuff that didn't really make sense then that now after I know more details of what happened and where my mother was found. It just makes things fit together.
All right, we'll get to that.Between the child being born in September of 1996, you and Raymond accept the plea for forgery second, is that correct?
Is there any more conversation about your mother between the child being born in September before you go to prison?With me and Raymond, or?Yes, with you and Raymond.
Yeah, I'd ask him several times if he had done something, if anything, if he knew anything.And he never would actually give me answers. What would he say?He would say things like, if you think that, then why are we still together?Why are you with me?
Okay.Do you and Raymond have any correspondence between you being in jail and him being in jail?Did you guys write letters back and forth or anything?Yes.All right.During that timeframe, was there any conversation about your mother?
Cause now we got more time passing and I'm sure the media's broadcasting and things like that.
The last thing I remember him telling me, and his mother also told me this, was that everything that we did would be looked at and recorded.
That we weren't supposed to discuss anything on the phone, and we were never supposed to ask any questions in writing.And that if somebody wrote and asked questions, that we weren't supposed to respond to it.
It was at this time that Lt.Franklin asked Rita to go back to the beginning, when Goldie had first disappeared.
I want to back you up to the time frame when you and Raymond are both living with your mother.Eventually your mother disappeared.Police are involved.When is the last time you can say you saw your mother?What date possible close around?
It would have been the end of January, but a date I could not give you.Okay.How do you say the end of January?Try to give me a reference point.
It's the time frame that I was sick, and I know I was over being sick before my sister's birthday, and her birthday is February 2nd.
So February 2nd, your sister, Barbie Carnes, Barbie Thornsberry, is her birthday.Yes.Do you recall her coming to your mother's house?
It was either the day of or the day after her birthday.I believe it was actually the day of her birthday or the night of her birthday.
And your mother is gone sometime toward the latter part of January.Are we saying the last week of January? Can you give me a better reference in January?It would have been the last week in January.OK.To February the 2nd, your mom's not there.Right.
Barbie comes to the house and inquires, where's mom?
OK.Did anybody inquire about your mother between that time frame?
My grandmother and one of my aunts stopped by, but I don't remember if it was during that time frame or if it was after.
What had occurred between January and February for you to believe it was OK that your mother was not there?
Well, she had told me that she was going to go out of town.
She had made preparations to go out of town, had her doctor's visit, made sure that her medications were all current, and she had refills and all of that, had the oil changed in the car.
She had told several other people that she needed to get away for a while also.
Where did she tell you she was going?
She told me that she was going to eventually end up at her sister Karen's house in Clinton.
Clinton, Arkansas.When you say eventually end up there, what do you mean?She was stopping somewhere else first?
She normally had to stop whenever she drove long periods of time.Usually she couldn't drive that long.
Okay.So she was leaving and going to go straight to Clinton.Was she ever going to go to your grandmother's house?
She said she might stop by my grandmother's house.She mentioned stopping by my sister Debbie's house.My ex-husband and my twin's father was living in Conway at the time.
Now, when your grandmother shows up at the house, does that cause alarm that she didn't stop at her house?
Not really.Not initially, no.
Okay, when is it that you start to have question about where your mother was or have concerns that she didn't show up at my grandmother's house and now everybody else is called masking to.
It probably really didn't make me wonder, wonder until it started getting later in February.
Okay.So latter part of February, you've got Barbie asking and you've seen your grandmother and she didn't go by there.
Barbie never asked where my mother was at.
Okay.Once she came to the house, what was she doing?
She was either coming over to talk to Raymond or she was coming over to see if we had money or Coming over to ask something, but Barbie never inquired where my mother was.
OK.Does anything happen in Little Rock that you now look at and wonder, that seemed odd?
What happened in Little Rock?
OK.Do you know anything about that particular vehicle?
No.He just told me that he was doing it for $50 for some guy to get an insurance payout.
How soon after you arrived in Little Rock was that car burned?
I know it was within a month of us getting in Little Rock.
Did they ever talk about me calling down to Little Oak?
After the initial, I guess the initial start of the investigation.
When you first moved down there?Did they tell you I called down there then?
Did anything strange happen after I first called down there?
I think you had already called down there when the car was burnt and then there was also a conversation where I heard Raymond's mom tell him that he needed to burn the house.
Is this on about the time when I called there?
You had probably called there before.
Before she made that statement?Yes.Are we talking days, weeks, or what?
I'm not sure because I'm not exactly sure when you made contact.I just remember her fussing at Raymond about something about bringing the bullshit to the house.And she was mad because she was getting drug into the middle of some bullshit.
And she had worked hard to build up her name and reputation.And she wasn't going to let him tarnish it.
Do you know what house was burned?No.Do you know where the house is?
No, because there was two different houses.I thought that she was talking about one was right next to her house.The other one was down by his dad's house.Were either of those houses eventually burned?
I think the one down by his dad's house was, but I don't know when.
You didn't see it burned or anything?
OK.Do you know if Raymond ever told anyone?Not what you suspect, but do you know if he's told anyone?No.Do you suspect?I mean, obviously, whoever family member helped him, no.Oh, yeah.
Do you suspect that other family members are aware of what happened?I suspect that his mom is.Well, I know that his dad is, because he told me that his dad helped him.
And I strongly suspect that his mom knows, because she had, after we were arrested, she called my husband.Some woman?Yeah. and told him that as long as I kept my mouth shut, everything would be fine.
She also told my sister Debbie that the day of our arraignment.
We're going to jump ahead further in this conversation to a section when they began discussing Rita and Raymond's divorce.And this is when Rita alleged that Raymond made a confession to her about Goldie's murder.
We signed the papers, and on the way back, he's starting to talk about family and what families do and how much he loved me and that he would do anything to keep me in a part of his life and that he doesn't understand really what he had done wrong.
And later on in that conversation,
You guys were still in the car?
Yes.He told me that he had killed my mother and that he did it out of love to try to keep me because he thought that she would make me leave him.
And that no matter what, we would always be bound because we had a child together and that love was for infinity.
And that whenever things turn bad, that the only people you really have that you can count on as family, that no matter what family should always stick together. The whole blood is thicker than water.
Doesn't matter what you do, where you go, that people would always be connected.
So he makes the statement where you're driving down the road.What's your response or what happens?
It was kind of like, I didn't even know what was going on.It was kind of like, I guess it would be to be in a movie.It was like a delayed reaction.Like I was hearing things, but I wasn't actually comprehending what was being said.
Did you say anything to him?
Not at first, I just kind of sat there.I remember I had to hit, went over on the curb, pulled over, and just stopped.
It's going to sound crazy, but the main thing I remember is looking at my hands that were on the steering wheel because I was holding it so tight that I didn't think I was ever going to let go.
Did you ask him anything?
I remember I'd ask him why, how he could do something like that.And that was when he started giving me details.
So in response to you saying, how could you do something like that?He starts to tell you how he did it.
He said that he had hit her in the back of the head with a clock radio and that he had strangled her.
What did he strangle her with?
The cord, I'm assuming, on the clock radio.
Did he say it was the cord from the clock radio or did he just say a cord?
Did he say where this happened at?
Did he go into any other details about moving her or taking her to Little Rock or anything along those lines?
He just said that his dad had helped him to cover it all up, to help him get rid of her body.
Did he say how?Yeah.What did that mean to you or how do you believe that related to anything?
That his whole family had known.
You believe they've known the entire time?You're shaking your head, but... Yes.Okay.Did that statement he made there and past statements or conversations you've heard with the family, do you believe any of that is related now?
Do you think the car burning had something to do with it?
I think it does, but what it means, I don't know.The house burning, I don't know.
Do you think that's what his mother meant when she said, you're bringing stuff down on the family or whatever?Yes.You had no doubt about the conviction in which he said it?
I had no doubt about it from the look in his eyes.
Did he threaten you at that point?
Basically told me that if I wanted to stay alive, that I would stay in Little Rock, not to try to take his son away from his family.
You say basically told you, do you recall his words?
That if I didn't want to end up like my mother, that I needed to stay there.That his mother wanted her grandson in his life.And that no matter what, we would always be bound.
Why did he believe your mom was going to get you two apart?Why did he think that?
Because he knew that if anybody could convince me to leave, it would be her.
Why did he think your mom wanted you two apart?
Because she told him that she didn't like him.She thought he was bad for me.She thought he was a bad influence on me.I had never used drugs until I started messing around with him.
You heard her tell him these things?
Yes.And she told everybody else that, too.
Did you ever talk to him about the stuff that your mom said about him?Yeah.No, we've had a lot of theories and thoughts about the case.The forgeries were thousands of dollars.Do you think that played any role in it at all?
I don't know, because I told my mom about the checks.And she told me just to start trying to figure out a way to get them paid off, that we'd figure it out.
She wanted to take care of you.
Yes.My mother never would have let me go to jail for forgery.
Did she say that she was going to send him away for it?
No, because she knew.I mean, I told her that I wrote most of the checks because most of the times he made me go in and cash them.
Because they were all in your mom's name?
And that money was used for drug use mostly?
Did you see any of the news reports about the remains of the lady found in the well in Panky?No.Had anybody said anything to you about that? Did you eventually hear anything about that between 2000 and present date prior to your arrest?
Not that I can remember, no.
Did his dad ever say anything to you about your mother's death?
I never spoke to his dad.
Okay.Did his brother ever say anything to you about your mother's death?No. This is between the time frame of you being arrested, going to Little Rock, and somewhere before pleading for the forgeries.Did you have suspicions?
But it wasn't enough to speak on?
I don't know if it wasn't enough to speak on or if it was just the fact that I was scared and stupid.
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If Rita had suspicions or knew what happened to Goldie, why hadn't she come forward years ago?One question we must ask is if Rita was genuinely scared of Raymond.
You heard in part one that Brittany, Nikki, and Casey all recall witnessing his violent outbursts firsthand.Lieutenant Franklin asked Rita about the abuse she endured at the hands of Raymond Douglas.
Had he battered you in the past?Yes.Tell me a little bit about that. Just whenever, you know, you're going to have to go into all this.He said you were scared.So tell me about.I mean, it's nothing.
Nobody's going to be charged for sexual limitations is up on that.But I'd like to know what your state of mind was when he would drink or whatever.
It would be.You would usually be out running around. anywhere from a couple hours to a couple of days before he'd come back.
And I don't know if it was paranoia from the drugs or if he was just crazy, but I was always accused of something, being out with some other man, talking to somebody, looking at somebody, whatever.
There were lots of times whenever he would hit me, black eyes, busted lips.
And your mom's seen some of this, did she?Yes.So it's part of the reason why she didn't like it.
How, banged you away or what?
There was one time whenever, well usually it was, usually it was with his hands.If there was something close, there was one time whenever he had a towel around my throat and had me push down into the bed.
And there were times whenever he would throw knives. He's the reason I don't sleep with my feet uncovered.
I have to have them tuck underneath the blanket because he had a really bad habit of coming in and pulling me out of the bed by my feet and would straddle me and choke.
So when he told you he strangled your mother, you believed that was real?
Is that past behavior you've seen from him?
Has he ever struck you with an object before?
When your eyes were black and your lips were buzzed, was that from his hand?Yes.Did you ever fear for your daughter?
Yeah.Because whenever he was high, he would want to wake all the kids up.Come on, we've got to go.We've got to get out of here.People are watching.
A key component of Rita's story is that she believed Raymond was drugging her, and that she either slept through her mother's murder or can't remember what had happened.We think it's important for you to hear this from Rita in her own words.
Let's go back to a point in time when you talk about you were sick.And I think in the conversation he told me you thought Raymond may have been drugging you or something was going on because you were having a real hard time for a period of time.Yes.
You spoke of a time frame when you walked to see Raymond trying to remove the freezer.Is that portion of your statement true?Yes.Tell me about that in the best detail you can recall.
It's kind of fuzzy because I was sick.I remember waking up.I could hear voices outside.There wasn't anybody in the apartment.And I went over to the window and moved the blind.
And I remember it was either really early in the morning or really late because there was a glare.And I remember it was hard for me to focus.And he was moving the freezer up the little slope outside my mother's apartment up toward the parking area.
OK.How was he moving the freezer?With a rope, like a little pulley rope.Did you guys have a vehicle at that time, Frank?No.Did you see where he was taking it to or where you believe he was moving it to?
My boy's truck was pulled off to the side, but it was behind vehicles.So I don't know exactly where it was taken.All I know is that he was pulling it up that slope.
You remember what month this is when this occurred?
I do know there was snow.Snow on the ground?Yes.Prior to you being sick, was your mom at the apartment?Yes.Later on, I guess after a couple of days of sickness, was your mom at the apartment when you got well?
Worked right until your mom had gone? tell me that she went ahead and left to go out of town.
So between you becoming sick and getting well for a couple of days, somewhere in between that, you look out a window and you see Raymond struggling with a freezer.Your mom's there, but you wake up, she's gone.Yeah.
During a time frame when you were sick, was your mom caring for you at all?
I don't remember really anything from that.That's why now I think that he probably was giving me something.I've never been that sick in my life.I've never.Yeah.
And I've never lost, even whenever I've been sick in the past, I've had the flu, but I've never lost like chunks of time and I lost periods of time.Can't remember things.
and then things, I don't know how to explain it because I don't know the voices and stuff that I would hear.I don't know if I was actually hearing those or if I was dreaming that.
All right.I have a question for you.How big was the freezer?Like three feet long.If everything was removed from that freezer, do you believe your mom could have gotten into it?
I don't know, but I don't think so.Why don't you think so? It was one of those freezers, you know how they have like the removable baskets, but the one that she had had like a shelf that was like built in that wasn't removable.
And it took up, it was probably like this much room.
Yeah, about 16 by the depth of the freezer.You don't believe that she would have been able to fit in there?
Okay.Do you believe that freezer would have fit in the back of Mike McEvoy's bed?I don't think so.So going back to you being sick, When you first got sick, was the freezer in the house?Yes.After you got well, was the freezer gone?
You recall it being in there afterwards?I don't remember.Is there a time frame when you were home and Mike McAvoy kept coming by and wanting his car?And Raymond had it?Yes.When was that?
I don't remember the date exactly.But Raymond had went down and borrowed his vehicle because he said that he had a dentist appointment.But he never went to the dentist.But he was gone all day.
So I don't know about the time frame.
Did he ever tell you what he did with the freezer?Why he did something with the freezer?
Well, the freezer had been worn out.I guess it had a short or something in it, so it would go from being from freezing to not freezing, except what I thought.
But he had told me that if anybody asked it, I was supposed to tell them that we took it to the Salvation Army and dropped it off.
If anybody asked about the freezer, told them this, why wouldn't he just tell you, no, I took it to the Salvation Army and dropped it off? I don't know.Right.How the freezer was when you saw it being pushed?
The lid had pieces of duct tape put on it to hold it closed and there was a rope around it.
If a body was collapsed and put together, would they fit in that freezer or do you know?
I'm thinking if it was like folded up, maybe, probably would.And you mean folded up, like the knees up and all that and stuck in there?
Yeah, like curled up. One of you guys told me that your mom left the house with a hospital bag.Was it your mom's practice to carry those bags or what?
Did she used to like to use those plastic bags?
Yeah, she would use a suitcase, but usually her personal hygiene items and her medications, she'd have like all of her medicines in a Ziploc bag and then put down into like one of the little hospital bags with lotion, that kind of stuff.
Did your mom own a pair of boots?Mm-hmm.That you recall?What type of boots were they?
She had a couple of pairs of snow boots.
Can you describe any of them?
One pair was tan, and the other pair was white, and they were the short.I call them snow boots, but I don't know if that's what they're talking about.
They hit about mid-calf, and they're kind of like a cloth-y material, like a slick material on the outside with a little rubber sole.
Did she wear those often?
When it snowed, yeah, because they had traction on the bottom, and she was always scared of slipping and falling, because she had actually slipped and fell.
In this time frame in which you've seen Raymond with the freezer, it was snowing.There was snow on the ground.
When you were sick, when you first got sick, was there snow on the ground?
Yes.Was she real protective about her car?I mean, did she loan it out to anybody and everybody?
It was really, she just didn't want him driving.I mean, from the time I got a driver's license, I was pretty much my mom's chauffeur.I drove her just about everywhere she needed to go.
Yeah.Not near as much as what I did, but he did drive it.
So when you were sick and they woke up, the car was gone?Yes.Was the car there before?
Do you recall seeing the car in the parking lot when Raymond was dealing with the freezing?
You don't recall seeing it?
I don't think it was there, because my mom usually parked in one of the first two spots.
Was this story that Rita gave in 2010 the truth?She had told various stories over the years.How could they be sure that this wasn't just another story?She seemed to distance herself from it all, saying that she must have been drugged.
But we know that Rita was the one telling people that Goldie was traveling.She's the one who rented a U-Haul trailer, which may or may not have been used for nefarious purposes.And she was an active participant in the forgery of Goldie's checks.
Was she more involved than she's ever admitted? At the time that they were charged, Rita was remarried to a man named Solomon.There's a report in the files we received that appears to have a page missing.
But there's something interesting written there.We don't have the full context for this, but wanted to share it with you.Since it looks like there's a page missing, it starts out like this.
Lying to him for many years, Solomon stated, I'm not surprised about anything with her.I don't think she could go that deep.But then again, maybe she could.Because a month ago, she hit me in the back of the head with a hammer.
She thought I was cheating.We aren't sure what to make of that.But is Rita capable of violence?With Rita's statement, they were able to move forward.And Rita was their star witness.The trial process was a bumpy road for Goldie's family.
Nikki explained how the first trial went.
They said, all we have is circumstantial evidence.This might not work.We're talking about going ahead with it or not going ahead with it.And the prosecutor at the time, he said, I can't promise you that I can win this.And it was very hard.
The first trial, we weren't even in that courtroom 10 minutes and Raymond's lawyer screamed to miss trial and that we need to close this down because I think it was Rita said something about his previous charges.And he's like, you've already.
tampered the jury with him being in trouble before.And now they can't separate what he did in the past from now.Oh, I wouldn't say we were even in there an hour.And the judge had to call a mistrial.
By the time the second trial rolled around, everyone hoped it would go smoothly.But Nikki said she quickly realized that the second trial wasn't going any better than the first.
So then we got another trial date and got back in there.I don't know how long between that one and that one. the prosecutor, he would start to say something and Raymond's lawyers, I object.I object.You don't have any proof.You don't have this.
You don't have that.And the judge threw his glasses off his face and threw them down on his bench.He's like, we can't get anywhere if you don't sit down and shut up.And he's like, we need another mistrial.And he's like, well, you're not getting it.
And then that trial, we went four or five days. I actually got to be in there the whole time because everyone else was going to be on the witness stand.My mom and Debbie, and then my sister Casey was going to read a statement.
And so me and a couple of my other cousins, we were in there through the whole thing.And I could tell knowing nothing about the justice system and just from the lawyer saying that, you know, we all have circumstantial evidence.
We don't know how we're going to win this.I could tell. day three or four, I was like, he's going to get away with this.Because every time the prosecutor said anything, his lawyer would stand up and argue and I object.
And then talking about you can't convict someone else on a guilty person's testimony because my Aunt Rita is just as guilty as he is.So he kept reminding everyone how guilty Rita was and that her testimony was no good.I think that she knows more.
And she might not have seen it happen, but I think my nanny would have confronted him about her checks.And especially if he had ever hurt Brittany, I think it probably, she might've been asleep, but I think she knows.
But because it was just circumstantial because anybody had access to that land.It didn't matter that it was close to his house.His lawyers say, Oh, well that still anybody could have been there.Anybody could have came there.
But really, who's going to kill your mother-in-law and dispose of her body across from your house?
When the verdict was read, Raymond's family rejoiced.Nikki said a horrible feeling came over her, knowing that there would never be justice for Goldie.
It was just awful.I just sat there because his family was cheering and just so happy.And I was just like, man, And the judge was like, shut it down or I'm sending you guys, you know, we're going to be in contempt.
And his sister or somebody almost fainted.It was just like a big production.And we kind of just sat there.And I think it took me a couple of days to even process what happened.Well, what does the word acquitted mean?What do we do next?
Where do we go now?And nobody basically just told us there was nothing else we could do.They can't ever charge him for murder again.So we just kind of.
ended up having a memorial and everybody kind of just went back to try to put it somewhere where they can move on with their life.I mean, I had to, because I had a family.I had two kids and they had no idea that this even had happened in my life.
They just knew that my grandma was in heaven.So I had to put it all back together by four o'clock in the afternoon so I could come back home and take care of them. And only by the of my faith that I was able to find a place, make peace with it.
Yes, Lord, he got away with it, but all I asked you for was her body so we could have closure. And so I kind of just, we put it there.
Was Raymond truly an innocent man or did the prosecution simply fail to make their case?Everyone we spoke to believes that a major problem for the prosecution was Rita's credibility.She had told so many different stories.
Even after her arrest, she wasn't immediately forthcoming.Casey explained her thoughts on why they weren't able to secure a conviction in this case.
The reason for the acquittal was the evidence was too circumstantial. And I also think it was a case of his family had money and ours didn't, and they were able to get a really good lawyer.His lawyer, he did his job.
He objected left and right and just making it confusing for everybody from what I understand.As far as the prosecuting attorney, when we went into his office before the trial, I honestly feel like he had given up before it had even started.
I feel like he was just trying to make us be okay with losing.He didn't want to fight.And, you know, Nanny was worth it.She should have been worth that fight.
Yeah, it was going to be hard because it happened so long ago and you don't have the best evidence, but you could have at least tried.During the trial, my mom and my aunt asked me if I would give a victim impact statement when they were found guilty.
And, you know, we all just kind of assumed they were going to be found guilty.
So because we were giving victim impact statements, we were told we couldn't be in the courtroom while the trial was happening, which is one of my biggest regrets to this day, not being in the courtroom for all of it.My sister was in there.
She replayed everything for me.And when Rita was testifying, she said that he said he didn't want to go back to jail.He said that he said he did it so that they could stay together because nanny didn't want her with Raymond.
because Raymond was dealing drugs, and Nannie didn't want any part of it.She had threatened to kick them out of the apartment, and she wanted Rita to get away from Raymond.
Goldie's sister Karen felt all along that Rita was involved in Goldie's disappearance.And during the trial, she felt Rita was being dishonest on the stand.
We know who done it.Court let him out, and he can't be tried again.I understand all the laws and all that stuff. See, they did not tell us that his parents was across the road.That should have been brought up.
In the courtroom, that was not brought up.She was involved from the get go.I was up there when Detective Franklin first called me and asked me if I was Goldie's sister.And I said, yes.And he introduced himself.
And the first thing out of my mouth was they killed her, didn't they? Cause we'd been trying to find her and my mama was alive there too.And we went to Goldie's house more than once.And Rudy came, came to the car and told us that she was at Debbie's.
And then she told some of the ones that Goldie was at my house.Just a bunch of lies.I was in the courtroom when the trial was going on.She was lying on the stand, everything out of her mouth. And the jury knew it.I knew it.And you could just tell.
Some people have discernment.And you can tell when somebody's lying.And I looked at the jury, and some of them were just, had their eyes down and shaking their heads.I knew before the trial was over that it was a lost cause.
Lieutenant Franklin was frustrated with the outcome of the trial.He wanted so badly to get justice for Goldie and her family.But he was also honest that it wasn't a perfect case to bring to trial.
There was what I would say, shortfalls in this case.Time was not on our side, bringing it to trial years and years after her disappearance.You know, we lost witnesses, we lost neighbors and people's memories just wasn't as good.
I think our prosecutor's office, we knew it wasn't the greatest case, but at the same time, we knew it was not going to get any better.And time would not be on our side by waiting.We had to present what we had available to us.
and we had obtained, but it was a circumstantial case and we gave it everything we had.And unfortunately they concealed just enough amount of time that played to their advantage.And unfortunately it just didn't work out the way we wanted it to.
I mean, there was a lot of things.Now jurors seem to want a video DNA and everything else.Well, we didn't have a crime scene. We lominaled the apartment and things of that nature and we did not find any blood or anything like that.
However, upon Goldie's recovery, her hands had been removed and one of her legs.And so it was pretty clear that that's not the crime scene at the apartment.So we didn't have a location where that happened at.
We didn't have time on our side and we didn't have any direct witnesses. So basically what the defense did was they used Rita's statement against her, basically saying, you could be telling the story.
You did all this and just pointing the finger at Raymond.Raymond could come up here and say the same thing.And it was able to put enough doubt into a couple of jurors' minds that, well, maybe she did it and just blaming it on him.
And he's trying to fight for his own defense. And it just didn't fall well with the jurors.And she was absolutely a co-defendant with the checks.And she was gaining from writing those checks.
She was gaining from living in that apartment with Raymond and their kid.It's hard for any one person to believe you would not know what's going on.
And as hard, fast as she stayed without any emotion and willingness to cooperate, I mean, she spent more time not cooperating than cooperating.And I think that's what the jurors saw.
The technology we have today would have made this case so prosecutable within months.I have a hard time looking back at this case saying, man, I wish we had that technology back then.
I wish we could have did this and did that, but it just wasn't available then.There's a lot of lessons learned here.I became so involved with knowing that family and they knew to call me and ask me questions.
And I just wish they could have gotten the closure they wanted out of this. But it was truly a trying case over that entire time span from beginning to end.
And it's one of those cases that'll stay with me forever because I did not get the results for the family that I think they deserved.I was on this case from beginning to the end.That's not common.
I mean, I put a lot of time and hours into this, but that is nothing compared to what that family has gone through.
I'm Jake Warren and in our first season of Finding, I set out on a very personal quest to find the woman who saved my mum's life.You can listen to Finding Natasha right now exclusively on Wandery Plus.
In season two, I found myself caught up in a new journey to help someone I've never even met.But a couple of years ago, I came across a social media post by a person named Loti.
It read in part, Three years ago today that I attempted to jump off this bridge, but this wasn't my time to go. A gentleman named Andy saved my life.I still haven't found him.
This is a story that I came across purely by chance but it instantly moved me and it's taken me to a place where I've had to consider some deeper issues around mental health.This is season two of Finding and this time, if all goes to plan,
will be Finding Andy.You can listen to Finding Andy and Finding Natasha exclusively and ad-free on Wondery Plus.Join Wondery Plus and the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
It was 1983.Power suits and perms were all the rage.Nightclubs pulsed with energy.And from bedrooms to boardrooms, cocaine was the drug of choice.One woman was raking in cash to keep that supply chain moving.Her name was Lainie Jacobs.
But Lainey had her sights set higher.She dreamed of becoming a Hollywood movie producer.That's how it starts, before it ends. someone will be shot dead.
From Wondery and the team behind the hit series, Hollywood and Crime, comes a gripping tale of ambition, betrayal, and the dark side of moviemaking.
Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.Listen everywhere on December 2nd, or you can binge all episodes early and ad free on Wondery Plus, starting November 11th.
Rita's explanation for why she doesn't know more about what happened to her mother was that she claimed Raymond must have drugged her.Brittany said she doesn't believe that at all.
She was about six, seven months pregnant by the time we were staying at Raymond's mom's house.So I don't know if my nanny knew that she was pregnant.Maybe she did.And that's why she was letting her stay there.And him just feeling sorry for them.
But I never knew she was pregnant until he was almost here. Then, I don't know, I guess she was kind of just trying to use that to get her time shortened, thinking she would have less consequence.But I don't believe that Raymond was drugging her.
The check fraud stuff.She was a willing participant.She's always had habit problems.Both of them were smoking crack.I used to watch my little brother while they would go buy crack.We were stuck at the Motel 6.Just newborn babies.She's a liar.
I wouldn't believe it.She knows more and what she's saying and what she wants to tell, that's for sure.I mean, she made a deal with them to having a hand in it and knowing what was going on.She testified against them.
Her admitting that she knows something or did something, covered up for him, whatever, even though they both got off.You're looking at how the situation played out.They just couldn't prove it in a court of law.She can play victim all day.
You knew exactly what you were laying down.You knew exactly how it was going to be perceived.You knew exactly what you were doing.
You knew that if you lied as much as you could, or even looked like you'll say anything just to save your own ass, this trial's going right to not guilty.If I was Raymond's defense lawyer, I'd have tore her lying butt to shreds on the stand.
Lieutenant Franklin has always suspected that Rita was much more involved in Goldie's disappearance than she ever let on.And to this day, he remains frustrated that she didn't choose to do the right thing a long time ago.
I think she was deeply rooted in it as well.If you just look back on the years that passed, even after she divorced Raymond and remarried, she still never came forth to the police department and said, hey, he did something to my mother.
And it wasn't until we obtained warrants for their arrest that she decided to come clean and tell the story of him admitting that he killed her mother.
It's just hard to believe that Rita had so many opportunities to come forward and just chose not to. But people are going to minimize their involvement in things like that and give themselves a way out.
And that's exactly how I took, Oh, I can't remember.Oh, I don't remember that.Or I don't know.It's just another form of trying to cover yourself and leave yourself with a little bit of dignity with your family.
Brittany has spent decades going over her childhood memories, looking for a clue as to what happened when her grandmother disappeared.And there are a few things that make her wonder if this could have been planned.
I always slept in the bed with my nanny since forever, since I was a baby.I was still sleeping in the bed with her.That's what makes me kind of think they were planning this, which is a couple of weeks leading up to this.
Raymond, he kept trying to get me to get out of the bed with her.So he was making me sleep on the couch and they would just be out at night or gone.My mom used to use Benadryl to like make us sleep a lot.
I think that they used something to put me to sleep that night, so I was just completely unaware.Whether it was Benadryl or whatever it was, it was something to put you under or knock you out, make sure you don't see or hear anything.
And that's what my aunt was saying.She was like, well, this whole time, like, she's been saying she was giving drugs and under the influence and all of this.I mean, she was probably giving you that stuff. which I believe because she's known for it.
She used to give us Benadryl all the time just to make us sleep for whatever reason so she could go out, so she could do this because she didn't have anybody to take care of her kids anymore.
At the time of Raymond's trial, Brittany wasn't in a place in her life where she felt that she could testify.And today, that's something she regrets deeply.She feels that her testimony could have potentially changed the outcome of the trial.
After she left, everything just fell apart. We don't see each other.We're all going through it.We're having overdose deaths in our family.It's just bad.
I get it that my mom and aunts and all of them lost a mother, and it probably hurts, but the way it affected all of the grandkids that she took care of.And when this trial came about, I talked to Detective Franklin, and that's what makes it so hard.
Had I said something then? I went to go to testify again, like the outcome probably would have been way different.But it's hard because it's my mom.Still, no matter what, I don't want to make her look bad.
But this is something that I'm dealing with and this is something that affects me deeply.Everything about my life is been just determined by this.It's just hard.That's my biggest regret of the trial.
That's why I think this is coming back around full circle that eventually I am going to have to tell the story and talk about it because that big piece was left out and it makes a major difference that they were arguing a lot up until that time that my nanny was saying, yes, I am going to leave, but she wasn't saying I'm leaving by myself.
Nanny was saying me and her are going to stay at Debbie's when she gets her next check.
Despite the not guilty verdict, Casey still believes that they had the right people when they arrested Rita and Raymond for Goldie's murder.But she still wonders if there are others out there who assisted in the coverup.
It's just so surreal.You know, it's one of those moments you question, did it really happen?Because it's hard to process when you accept that it really did.When everybody's telling you, well, we got our guy.We did what we were supposed to do.
We got the right person.And nobody wants to look anymore. It made me question for a minute after they acquitted him, it stopped me in my tracks around what I was like, did it really happen this way?
If they didn't do it, what other explanation is there?What else could have really happened?
But when you look at how everything lines up and where she was found and how she was found and the stories that are told, there's nothing else that makes sense. I really feel like he snapped in a moment.He was violent before.
So I think it was definitely a crime where he just snapped and it happened.But then that makes me wonder, he wasn't stable.He was doing drugs.
He was not in a good spot in his mind, obviously, where he just flips out and kills the woman you're living with.So now how do you fix it?How do you cover it up?That's what gets me.Somebody had to have helped him because in that moment,
He wasn't logical, so who was helping him take these steps to cover it up like this?I really think there was a fear of Raymond and who helped him.In my mind, he killed Rita's mother and made her disappear.
For 10 plus years, nobody said a thing, and it was pure chance.Even then, nobody was saying anything.Somebody somewhere had some power There's so many different ways you can look at it.The assumption was he was always the aggressor.
Another way I've always thought about it is, what if she was the one who hit Nanny with the alarm clock?What if she was the one who actually did it and he was the one who helped her cover it up.
Goldie's grandchildren have been navigating complex family dynamics their entire lives, but it got much worse without Goldie there to keep them all safe and advocate for them.
Casey was hopeful that once Goldie was found, that her family would come back together again.
This completely destroyed that side of my family.When she disappeared, it destroyed all of that.And so now it seems like we only get together in emergencies or when there's a death.
When Nanny was found, my mom and my aunt Debbie welcomed Rita back, which I did not agree with, but they welcomed her back.And our cousins kind of came back, reconnected.
And then when I started thinking about being, about getting Nanny's story out there again, I reached out to all the cousins and let them know what I was going to be doing.And Brittany and I actually reconnected that way.
what happened with Nanny and how it affected us and how she wants to tell her story too and she doesn't have anything to do with her mother and you know she believes that they're guilty. He believes it was premeditated.
Goldie has become a subject that many people don't want to talk about.During the research process for this series, we ran into this as some family members promised to speak with us, then almost immediately went radio silent.
Casey finds the silence surrounding Goldie's murder to be one of the most hurtful components of the trauma she carries.
This just got dismissed, and it's been dismissed my whole life.We can't keep dismissing it. we want any changes in our lives.And I want different for myself.I don't want to keep repeating a cycle.
I don't want to keep pushing this down and not dealing with it.And I'm sorry if that does hurt the others and affect them.
When you don't have this ability in your own life to stop and pause and see the trauma that's going on around you, like all we did was survive and everybody found a way to survive the best that they knew how.
That led to nobody being able to advocate for Nanny in the way that could have really got answers at the time that it was needed.
As you can imagine, since Raymond was acquitted, and neither of them ever served time for their alleged role in Goldie's murder, this has complicated the family dynamics even further.
Many family members believe that Rita was involved in Goldie's murder, and from time to time, Casey said she sees Rita at family events, and she can't help but harbor some resentment.
I don't really have anything to do with Rita.
When I go around my biological mom's family, she will be around. One of my younger sisters passed away in December of 2021, and she was at the hospital for that.
It's very difficult for me to be in a room with her and not want to scream, what did you do?But then you have to look at yourself and be like, well, who am I to demand answers?
When if somebody was trying to demand answers from me about my life, I couldn't give you a good answer for some of the decisions I've made in my life.
It's hard when you want to hold somebody accountable, you have to be ready and able to handle the accountability for yourself as well.And when you're family and you're trying to hold family accountable, it just makes it so much more difficult.
And at the end of the day, you have to be okay with the fact, yes, I've made mistakes.I haven't made the best decisions in my life, but I still want answers.I still want you to know what you did. I want you to be accountable for what you did.
And I want everybody to stop pretending like we don't know what she did.They got away with killing Nanny and destroying a family for no good reason.She didn't deserve it.We didn't deserve it.
When we finally had a funeral and a memorial for Nanny, since all of this had happened, it was the first time I'd seen a lot of family. I remember even though there was just this overwhelming sense of sorrow and regret, I still had hope.
I was like, okay, finally, I'm going to have my family back now.This is going to fix something.
For a little bit, there was contact and I don't know if it was the outcome of the trial or how everybody felt after it, that fixing just never came, at least not the way that I thought that it was going to happen.
I think for me at the end of the day, and the one thing that really drove me to want to bring up Nanny's story is there's just so many unanswered questions still.Even with an arrest, with a trial, there's so much we didn't get to have happen.
At the end of the day, I just wanted answers. honesty, I want to know how the family can move past this, or is it just too late?For me, just for somebody who was there to be able to say, this is what happened.
You always want to know why, and there's never going to be a good enough why for this to happen to somebody.I wanted justice the whole time Growing up with this, I wanted justice, and justice never came.
These people got away with it, and for me it was not fair.I understand that life is not meant to be fair, but there are some things, some injustices that you just cannot get past in life.Even if there is no criminal accountability, nothing like that.
I want them held accountable.
I want these people who helped Raymond and who helped Rita destroy our lives, our family, to know that even though you didn't go to jail for it, your name never got mentioned, you didn't get in trouble for it, God saw you.
Somebody somewhere saw you, and you will be held accountable. That's something I guess I needed for my own healing.I needed to understand.I needed to have her story out there.
I needed to have it heard so that she is not just forgotten and dismissed because she was so much more than that.
Brittany struggles with this too.Some of her own siblings support Rita, but things will never be okay for Brittany.
If I'm reconnecting with cousins and stuff, from what I hear, There's some type of covering up type of thing, like, just don't bother Britney.A lot of the information doesn't come out or she doesn't want to talk about it.And I get it.
Me and my sister had a huge argument about it because, you know, she lives with my mom.They still have her and my little brother.They have a great relationship.So it's hard for me to talk about these things in front of them.I don't want to ruin.
their version of Rita, but it's just like, I got my own version of her.She wasn't that great in my life.A lot of the stuff I know about her, they don't even remember.Rita doesn't want them talking about this.
Her exact words were, it was the worst day of my life.It's over.Why are we still talking about it?I don't talk to her at all.The last time I seen her, while I was on my way down there, my sister didn't tell me that she lived with my mom.
So it was just kind of a surprise when I got down there.But it was a bad time for me, because being around her just gives me high anxiety.Just hold it together.And other than that, I don't talk to her.
I don't hear from her on birthdays or our regular days.I think she just kind of likes me not to exist, because that's a part of her life that she likes to ignore.She doesn't like that I talk about Nanny all the time.
And then my childhood, she doesn't want that subject to come up. Everything she does is with intention.You just want to still be a victim.No, just take accountability for your actions.It's already said and done.Like, they can't try you again.
They can't do anything for you.Like, why are you not just telling the truth now?
Casey mentioned earlier that she wasn't able to watch the entire trial.And Lieutenant Franklin feels that's why so many family members have unresolved feelings about how the trial went.
I think the family members were hurt, too, because In Arkansas, there's something called invoking the rule.
And so if you're a potential witness or someone that's going to testify, then you're not allowed in the courtroom until you give your testimony.And several family members were on the list to testify.
And so I think there was not a lot of closure because they weren't able to sitting there and see what was going on during the trial. and answer some of the questions for themselves.And that's a hard deal.I mean, that's just the rule of law here.
Nobody wants your testimony to be tainted.
Lieutenant Franklin may be right about this.Nikki said that she was one of the few family members who was able to sit through the entire trial, and it's given her more peace than some of her cousins.
I think for me, because I got to sit in there, And I've got to hear some really horrific things and I had to learn how to cope with those things.
But because I got to sit in there and I know that they're both guilty, even though he didn't go to jail for it, I still know he will be held accountable for it.And so will Rita.
Now for my family members that didn't get to sit in there and hear all that, and I still haven't told them everything that I got to hear or witness or see, because it would just shatter you.And for him to get away with it.
So I think for them, yes, it was like a secondary trauma, but it was kind of healing for me because I knew and I didn't need the jury.I mean, yes, I wanted them to send him to prison and I wanted him to be punished for his crimes.
Cause I think if you could find those jury members, they would have probably tell you, yes, he was guilty, but we couldn't convict him of it by the evidence we were giving.And because they knew Rita was just as guilty.
Because yes, anybody could have dumped her body there.Anybody could have done this because there was no DNA, nothing.It was just bits and pieces of this and that in here that added it up.
And then for her to say, yes, he did say it, that he would do what he did to my mom, to me, if he didn't obey him.But through all the testimony and all the things that were being said, she had to have been in that apartment.
Brittany has been working to heal from the trauma she's endured throughout her life.It hasn't been easy work, but she's committed to breaking the cycles of generational trauma.
It really has stunted my growth as an individual, just really in all aspects of life, mentally, emotionally.It's hard to move past because you're not dealing with it.Now that I've started to deal with it, getting a lot better, things aren't as bad.
It still hurts that she's gone, but I've learned to just let certain energies in my life go, no matter how much I love them, no matter what it's supposed to look like in the world.Like, oh, you gotta love your parents no matter what.
You can't pick them.No, I don't care if you're my mom.If it's not serving a good purpose to me, it has to be gone.I can't deal with it because I know what it can lead to.I just know what can happen when
you keep things around you that shouldn't be around you.The whole point of being sober is being able to do this.And I know this from being on my sobriety journey.You have to talk about it.You have to get it out.
You're doping yourself up because you don't want to deal with it.You want to forget.The more you talk about it, the less you're going to hurt.The easier life gets.
You don't have to cloud your mind with all this other stuff that doesn't matter because at the end of that,
Drink or whatever it is, once it's gone, you're going to be at your lowest and you're going to be bawling your eyes out about whatever the core of your issues are.
So what happened to Goldie Thornsberry back in 1996 when she disappeared from Fayetteville? We have some of those answers today.We know that someone killed Goldie and left her in a well in Little Rock.
But since Raymond's trial ended with a not guilty verdict, it all feels so unresolved.They can't try Raymond again.Did they have the right guy, but simply not enough evidence to satisfy the burden of proof?Could someone else have been responsible?
And what was Rita's role in all of this?
While Goldie's loved ones have resigned themselves to the fact that justice will likely never come, they do feel that there are people out there who know more, and could help them all move forward in the healing process if they just spill the secrets they've been holding onto for so long.
Goldie was murdered more than 28 years ago, and within those 28 years, her grandchildren have grown up, and their perception of everything has shifted with time and maturity.
But they still struggle with so many unresolved feelings about Goldie's murder.During this series, you heard about their lives as they moved through time.
And also Lieutenant Franklin, who was just beginning his career as an investigator when Goldie vanished and her case landed on his desk.He carried Goldie's case with him throughout his entire career.
And when we spoke with him in September, he said he's getting ready to retire.Goldie's disappearance and murder has haunted so many people.And one thing that was so important to everyone we spoke to is that Goldie isn't forgotten.
If you have any information about the murder of Goldie Thornsberry, please call the Fayetteville Police Department at 479-587-3555.
It's hard getting her story out again and just making people aware.I really just want his family to be aware.We didn't forget about this.
I wanted to protect her, but I'm like, why am I protecting you if it's hurting me this bad? Rita didn't have a problem upsetting you and ruining your life and family and lie about it till this day.So why do you have so much protection for her?
People just gave up.At least my family, nobody knew how to stand up and fight for it.The best effort was not given.Nobody had the ability to do that, to stand up and hey.I mean, growing up, Franklin was my hero.
He came to my family, and he made promises that he was going to find answers for us, that he was going to find Nanny.And he stuck with it, and he stuck with us.He came to the funeral.He was there.She understood how important Nanny was.She knew.
The only reason she was surviving was because of Nanny at that point. to know you knew, you understood what the consequences were going to be to remove this person.You still let it happen.
That brings us to the end of episode 460.I'd like to thank everyone who spoke with us for this series.If you have a missing loved one that you'd like to have featured on the show, there's a case submission form at thevanishedpodcast.com.
If you'd like to join in on the discussion, there's a page and discussion group on Facebook.You can also find us on Instagram.If you like our show, please give us a five-star rating and review.
You can also support the show by contributing on Patreon, where you can get early and ad-free episodes. Be sure to tune in next week.We'll be covering a case from Arizona.Thanks for listening.
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Now streaming on Prime Video.You can call me Detective Alex Cross.Based on characters created by James Patterson.Detective Cross, you've been doing this a long time and you're the best.And created by Ben Watkins.Multiple victims I connected to this.
Comes a thrilling new series. He's a serial killer.I don't kill for fun.This guy thinks he's the smartest guy in the room.There's a lot of sickos out there.He actually believes he's an artist.You're going to be part of a masterpiece.
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