I'm Claire Fallon.And I'm Emma Gray.And this is Love to See It, an obsessively detailed podcast about the romance we see on screen.From reality dating shows like The Bachelor to classic rom-coms and other pop culture that makes us laugh, cry.
and curse the patriarchy.
We can't live with these stories and we can't live without them, but we can break down every juicy detail and unpack all the weird messages on-screen romance sends us about love, sex, and dating.
Welcome to Love to See It, a podcast about the devastating power of the French friend zone.
Pascale, we were rooting for you.But more importantly, we were and still are rooting for Joan.
Yes, this is Joan's Journey.And today, Joan is at one of the most important benchmarks in the journey, fantasy suites. our very first ever Golden Bachelorette Fantasy Suites episode.
This episode turned out to be a little more, like, emotionally spooky than I think we expected, than Joan expected.So, it just makes sense that this episode is releasing on Halloween.Happy Halloween, everyone.
I personally will be just cozying up, watching a not scary but spooky season movie tonight.So, hope everyone has big plans.
Claire, are the kids dressing up?Yes, they're going to be dinosaurs.This is what I've learned about having an older sibling, younger sibling dynamic is that the older sibling decides what everyone is going to be.And he picked dinosaurs.
So we're very excited.Wow.Ruling with an iron fist.He really does.He's like, everything is about me, including what my younger brother wears.
Reminder to everyone listening that our Love is Blind DC reunion recap will drop at the end of this week on Rich Text.You can look out for that and find all of our other Love is Blind recaps at clarendemma.substack.com.
So let's get into this Fantasy Suites episode.We start, of course, with the cold open.Joan is walking the hallway of a cruise ship in full glam, looking sad and sniffling.
I think one of the challenges that they have with this season is that Joan is so composed.And this is like the most heart-wrenching reaction she has had to anything.And I still felt like I had to look kind of closely to see if she was sad.
It's like a single bit of moisture in her eye level of demonstrativeness.
She's like so, so used to keeping it together for her children through extreme grief. that this is like child's play grief for her.
She says in voiceover, I was afraid coming into this and then gradually along this journey, my fear started getting better.I'd started feeling more and more hopeful.Now my hope is down to nothing.Dun, dun, dun.Yeah, it's not looking good.
But let's rewind.We're back in L.A.We're in L.A.X.for a healthy dose of SponCon.Honestly, it worked on me.Yeah.
It worked on me.I was like, I want to fly first class to Tahiti.
I mean, it's not hard to make flying first class to Tahiti look good.Let's start there.Like, the material is easy to flog.This isn't like Amazon wedding registries.Everyone wants to fly first class to Tahiti already.
Um, but they've put Joan on travel blogger duty.Travel vlogger duty, really.She's ready to flog the shit out of Air Tahiti Nui and the islands of Tahiti.
Oh, hell yeah, she is.She is.She's so ready.And you can tell that they promised the big sponsorship here because Joan, like, is on the plane by herself at the beginning of this shot.Yeah, first class.Like, they chartered the whole plane.
I was like, did they film this before she actually left on a separate plane?Did they let her board early?I'm going with separate photo shoot.I mean, it's... Yeah, that's my guess too.
They make the whole, um, the whole experience look so ludicrously pleasant.Like, she's walking through the airport in heels and a white maxi dress, looking incredibly glamorous.Not a piece of luggage in sight.
She doesn't even have a purse or like a handbag.
No personal items necessary for John.
She's like, the men of Air Tahiti Nui are lugging my trunks, my steamer trunks, and various other hat boxes as we speak.
And she announces that she's going to be flying to Tahiti on Air Tahiti Nui, and the camera lingers on the bright blue plane soaring through the clouds.We also see a flight attendant.
Again, she's alone on the plane, but a flight attendant is offering her champagne and a tiara flower to put behind her ear, which is a traditional Tahitian flower. And then they touch down in Marea, Tahiti, which is also very easy to advertise.
You gotta work hard to make Tahiti look bad.There's like crystalline water, green mountains, stone statues, there are men on horseback by the water.She says it's paradise.I believe her.
Something that she doesn't... Well, does she say it's the perfect place to fall in love?If so, I didn't notice it.I feel like they haven't been leaning on that this season.
No, she's not doing the run and jumps.She's not doing the, it's a perfect place to fall in love.She's like, we'll see if we fall in love.
That's an open question.Her body language and her language language as the season goes on almost is getting more like... Do I have to be here?I said I would do this, but I can't say that I'm enthusiastic about it.
But wait, they're also sponsored by a cruise ship line.So, Joan gets to Tahiti, immediately disembarks from the shore of Tahiti to board the Starbreeze by Windstar Cruises.And basically a promo video of the ship's amenities plays.
And Joan says, we are sailing these beautiful oceans in luxury.
Were you aware this was a luxury cruise, Claire?
It's hard to dispute that after this sequence.I've actually never heard anyone say a sentence like that in any context other than scripted advertisements.It's not a human sentence. So yeah, these, uh, these sponsors got their money's worth.
And after 90 seconds of, like, pure uncut advertising, Joan is finally permitted to really dig into the emotional task ahead of her because she has these three guys, Pascal, Guy, and Chalk.So one guy and two other men.
And she has them with her, and she's filled with hope for Fantasy Suites Week.
But she's also feeling stressed and kind of lonely. It's a lot.She's like, I want a friend.And what do you know?A friend has arrived.You know she's expecting Jesse Palmer, and she's like, he's fine.And then she sees Nancy, and she lights up.
Nancy, of course, from her season of The Golden Bachelor.
I love Nancy.I love Nancy, and I also don't believe that it's really a golden season unless there is a Nancy at some point, because every woman of that age that I know is named Nancy.
Both of our moms, my mother-in-law, my best friend's mom, they're all named Nancy, so there's gotta be one.
Yeah, and she's a good representation, I think, of Nancys everywhere.
I agree.Nancy is lovely, they have a warm embrace, and Joan shares that they weren't only close on the show, they actually live close to each other and have become besties.
I think Nancy lives in Virginia, and Joan is in Maryland, so that makes a lot of sense.
So she did meet someone on the show who lives close to her, and they can have an ongoing relationship.
Thank God.So they sit together, and Joan is so sweet about Nancy's arrival.We had to clip it.
They're so sweet.It's just so genuine.I know.I love how many of these interactions are also just like, I can't believe you would do this for me.I mean, I would do it for you, but I'm not used to people doing things for me.That feels weird.
I know.Also, I was like... Hopefully, they paid.Like, they paid her to fly to Tahiti.
Well, I mean... It's not a bad deal.Yeah, yeah.It's not like she just showed up.Yeah.That's the thing.It's like, thank you so much for coming to Tahiti.For a vacation.Yeah.That was so hard.
Then she fills Nancy in on her final three, and she says Guy is retired and wants to travel.They have a similar lifestyle, and he's very handsome.It's been a slow smolder, but she says her feelings are behind his.
I love slow burn as just a stand-in for, I don't like him that much.
Yeah, no, he's just like, It's still there.It's still happening.It hasn't flamed out.He's good.He's fine.Yeah.No, the language about Guy is always like, I can't say anything bad about Guy.Yeah.Pascal is like John.He lives life big.
He has self-confidence.He has a sexy swagger.Nancy agrees that self-confidence is very sexy, but he's the most guarded of all of her men.
And then chalk chalk makes her feel safe and sexy and he's a very good kisser but is he too good to be true that is what you say about someone that you want to pick at the end pick but like correct you're you're like something could come up and it turns out that there's a deal breaker I don't know about
She really has that, like, perfect, like, platonic layout of, like, the guy who's more into her, the guy who's less into her, and the guy who's just right.Exactly.Joan tells Nancy the only red flag is her heart.Can she fall in love?
She's still feeling a lot of guilt and grief over John, and she tells Nancy that she worries if she really loves John the way she says, she wouldn't be able to move on.
But at the same time, she knows that she does love John, and she's also having feelings for these other men.
I feel like she's... Like, the processing of this, like, it must be so hard, and it just, like, it's taking up more of her mind as the season goes on.
But it doesn't seem like she's... I would be surprised if she's really able to work through this in the timeline of the show.
Yeah, I feel like it would be a good idea for her to not jump into an engagement, for example.
Yeah.I feel like she needs some time in the real world to get comfortable with another relationship.
Yeah.I think she really wants a relationship, but she, as you said, is still working through a lot of these feelings of guilt in real time.And I think some of that is maybe a little bit inevitable.
given that it doesn't sound like she's really dated much at all.Yeah.In the three years since she's lost her husband.So she sort of hasn't, she hasn't workshopped those feelings yet.
Yeah.Yeah.And I feel like such a high profile, like full immersion, fast paced engagement approach is going to trigger
a lot like there's no like i'm gonna tip dip my toe and then retreat a little bit and like work things through it's like it's like advertising like i'm full steam ahead ready to jump in with someone and more and more she's like but i'm not so why am i here
So yeah, she's still working through that.But Nancy, who is also widowed, assures Joan that this is totally normal and that she deserves to find love again.She's like, you put everyone first.You deserve to put yourself first.
And she says, lonely is not a place you stay.Lonely is a place you walk through.And I hope that's true for Joan.Me too. And after they talk, Nancy really emphasizes Joan's hope.She has never seen Joan hope before.
Hope is a big theme of this episode and the devastation of hope that might be in the offing. They hug, and Joan tells Nancy, I have to go on a date right now.And Nancy's like, right now?
And as soon as I heard this framing that Joan presented of the date, I was like, the first date is with Guy.
And... SHANNON COFFEY, PH.D.: Oh, 100%.
I feel like maybe I'm too hard on Guy and her not liking him, but the fact that I just, like, knew it was Guy when she said, I have to go on a date right now.
SHANNON COFFEY, PH.D.: She likes him fine.Yeah. but she doesn't want to be with him.Like, she enjoys him.
Not in a way where it, like, overpowers the exhaustion of the prospect of, like, being on camera for a date for, like, 12 hours.It's just like, he's great.And, like, also, maybe I'd rather be in bed.
Or hanging out with my good friend, Nancy.
Yeah.She's still in her, like, dress from the flight.I was like, what is the timeline here?Did she get to sleep? I really hope so.So yes, date number one is with Guy.
Guy is at the Sofitel onshore who didn't pay as much for advertising consideration and he's buttoning his light salmon shirt and spraying cologne. He's really missed Joan since his hometown, and he believes he's falling in love with her.
And he describes it very viscerally.He's like, I forgot what it was like, that kind of crazy, can't get enough of them, sweaty palms, those feelings you have when you're young that I thought I was never going to have again.
I'm getting worried about Guy.Yeah, Guy's got it bad.Guy's down bad.Joan meets Guy at the dock and Joan does not seem down bad at all.She doesn't even really approach him.
He's like jogging toward her and she's standing on the dock and finally she sort of takes a step or two in his direction.She's like, he'll get here eventually.She like leans back for a hug.I was like, the body language here is fine.Okay. I'm here."
But he calls her freaking perfection.And she's like, thank you.They're heading out on a boat and they pop champagne and settle back to enjoy the view.I was like, is this a cursed date?Because immediately what came to mind was her boat trip with Mark.
I was like, oh no, I'm waiting for the awkward silence to begin.
Here's the thing, Joan and Guy, I don't think, have a romantic spark, but I do think they have, like, a good rapport.And friendship.She's able... Yeah, she's able to hang out with him and have a good time and talk to him.It's not awkward.
Yeah.I feel like a lot of what they end up talking about is just, like, similar memories that they have with their respective families.But that's... That can get them through a lot.So, Guy and Joan talk about how much she loved his hometown.
And she really emphasizes like how what she learned from his hometown is that he loves his kids very much.And she loves that.And also his family was very welcoming.And Guy gets emotional and says his kids and sisters adored her.
Um, his family even more so.Like, with Chalk, we don't hear as much about how much he loves his kids.And I don't think it's because she doesn't think he loves his kids.
I think it's just that there's other stuff about Chalk other than the virtue of loving your kids that she... Right.
No, with Guy, she's like, there are all these external things about you that I find very admirable, but none of them are about their connection. Yeah.So she's reaching for like, your family is wonderful.The way you love your kids is so wonderful.
And then she talks about things in generalities.Like Guy says, you know, I didn't think I could feel this way again.And Joan is so careful in her response.She says she's had revelations about her feelings too.
She didn't think she could get to where she is now.But she doesn't say, about who.Right.She's like, I didn't think my feelings could progress in general.
Yeah.And they have, generally speaking.In An In The Moment, Guy says he's feeling mesmerized by the way she looks, the things she's saying, and the beauty that they're sharing.
I thought this was such a probably unintentionally honest way of describing how the show makes people think they're in love.Like, the lead looks great.The lead says the right things.And they're in a beautiful place.He's like, I'm mesmerized by this.
I'm being hypnotized into feelings of love.It is very effective.Joan tells Guy he can kiss her.And he does.
again it's like it's you're just not feeling like the chemistry it's like you may kiss me and he's like oh all righty great guy tells joan that they're so aligned they're both becoming grandparents they're not as focused on career and they can really think about the future and how they want to spend their golden years and she agrees he side hugs her and kisses her head
They snorkel in the clear water.They see some manta rays and some like small sharks and things like that.And over this idyllic footage of them swimming with sea creatures, we hear Joan saying, Guy makes me feel so hopeful.
Every time we're together, it gets better.Today we took the big leap.We're there now.But she says this has made it harder because she still has two other men, the ones she really likes.
And so now she's like, it's gonna be really hard to dump guy.
I mean, again, it's like the book, the big leap into what, like I, she's vague, but clearly the feelings are starting to catch up by the end of this date, we see them making out in the water in a way that doesn't feel that awkward or forced to me.
And I was like, oh, maybe they have started to break through a little bit into having a more natural chemistry together.That's true.I don't think it's totally not fair.Yeah.I know.Yeah.
No, there's a reason she's kept him this long, and if they are able to have that comfort and ease together, that might be enough, but...
She just likes the other two guys better.It's not that she doesn't have a good connection with Guy.You know, I think something's missing there.But she just has a better connection with Pascal and with Chalk, especially with Chalk.
On that note, we're going to take a quick break.And when we get back, the rest of this date…
And we're back.Next, we see Jessie sitting by the water with Chalk.Jessie's having office hours.The gentlemen are showing up to... Therapist Jessie, the doctor is in.Yeah, they're getting some of their neuroses on the record.
And Jessie says, we're not in Kansas anymore.They're like, that's so true. Great Wizard of Oz joke, Jessie.
The half-assed way that they have been weaving the Wizard of Oz into Chott's storyline, it's like you didn't, you could have just cut all of it out.
Go for it fully, you cowards.
Either go for it or cut it.That one, like, half-second shot of a woman being like, we're in Kansas, so here are red slippers.Is this a Wizard of Oz-themed date?Go for it or don't. So Chalk tells him he's nervous.
He really cares for Joan and it's close to the end.Jesse asks about his feelings for Joan and he says he's in love with her and he's not just someone who throws that out there.And then he says Guy and Pascal, they bring a lot.
I don't know if they're a fit for Joan, but I've got tough competition. Chalk is always making the sale.He's like, I'm the right person for this contract.It's not that they're not great.
If you're looking for something a little different, they could maybe meet your needs really well.But I think that I'm definitely the best suited to execute this contract for you. You know what, he might be right in this particular scenario.
But he does express his fear that her fantasy suites are deepening other connections and taking her away from him.Jesse asks how he'd feel if Joan didn't reciprocate, and Chalk says it would be devastating.And that's love.Nobody likes rejection.
So wise, Chalk.Jesse asks how he sees this ending, and Chalk says either an engagement or he'll get his heart broken.
This made me wonder if the main tension we're gonna see in the finale is, like, whether or not they get engaged.
I actually think you're right.I feel like they're really building towards, is Joan actually going to be ready to get engaged?
Or is she going to choose no one at the end because she is still, because they're giving so much space to her own, like, growing anxieties about what it means for her to move on.
I feel like she'll probably just choose to date someone. but they're building it into this, like, Chalk will be devastated if they don't get engaged.Whereas I think in reality, Chalk probably is just like, well, those are the two options.
Yeah, it's like, we'll get engaged or she'll get engaged to Pascal or Guy and I'll be really sad. Uh, Chalk talks about how crushed he would be if Joan had stronger feelings for someone else in an in the moment.
While we see Joan and Guy, this is the moment where I was like, whew, Joan and Guy are hardcore making out in the water as the sun sets.Get it, girl.Yeah.
She's had enough devastation.I wish for her to like think a little less sometimes.
Yeah, just feel.Go with your gut. Night date time, and Guy's feelings are even stronger than when he said he was really, really falling for Joan.He suggests that you could throw in a couple more reallys.He's exploring new- No need, Guy.
He's just exploring new places to expand the universe of, like, bachelor love nomenclature.He's like, I can actually hang out in falling for her for a while if I just keep adding reallys.I don't have to progress to... So innovative.
I don't have to progress to falling in love or in love.I can just be, like, really, really, really, really, really falling for her.
They sit for an outdoor dinner by the water and he toasts to more memories and a potential long-term relationship or commitment that could end in something special. Like, death?I mean, it's like... The relationship is gonna end in something special.
I feel like he just lost track of this toast.He meant an engagement, I assume.Right, but that is not the end of the relationship.Or a marriage?I don't know.He was going somewhere.Yeah.Yeah. He didn't enter the toast with a plan.It's okay.
We get the vibe.We'll forgive it.Joan is feeling surprised in her in the moment at how much things progressed.He's so fully in now, and it's making her feel the same way.And she says, it's as strong as other connections I have.
So promising.That's the best, honestly, the best guy can do.Yeah.It's like he's caught up to the region of the other.Yeah.
He's in the zip code now.Yeah.They talk about how they weren't scared of the sharks that swam with them.And then Joan tells Guy that she feels more hopeful and feels like finding love is possible after the day.
And a guy tells Joan that despite his previous reservations, he feels more than hopeful, whatever that is.And then he says it's been 10 or 11 days since he's had any real extended conversation with her.How is that possible?What's going on here?
Was he actually the last fantasy suite? Because, like, hometowns, there were four of them, right?But they keep the schedule really tight.Like, I would think it would have only been, like, maybe six days ago.
If he had the first hometown and then they had, like, a day in L.A.for the rose ceremony.And then she's like, she got to Tahiti and immediately she's on this date. Maybe that was actually a different date.
Yeah, they might have just had her in the same outfit a couple times.They generally take at least a day for travel.And how long is the flight to Tahiti?
Seven days.I have no idea.I would love to go to Tahiti.Someone send me to Tahiti so that I can know.Probably like 12 hours.
Oh, I guess it's only actually eight hours.
Oh, well, yeah, from LA.Yeah, from here, it would be more like 12.
So it emotionally felt like 10 days.
It was I don't really understand the filming schedule there.But It's been a while, and he says that despite this, their day together felt like the hometown was yesterday, and they picked right up from where they left off.
And they still have this evening to spend together.And Joan is like, yeah, let's talk about this evening, actually.It's fantasy suite night, and I am not having any sex with anyone this season.So put that right out of your head, sir.
She's like, I'm saving that for my final one.Like, I'm not gonna have simultaneous sexual relationships with people.It will be exclusive or bust.Why do people keep making these public vows?It hasn't worked since Sean Lowe.
Yeah, I do find it notable that the golden bachelorette felt she needed to say this.And the golden bachelor did not.Like, I did wonder if part of this is just...
Joan telling people watching, like, I'm not... I don't know, feeling like she needs to tell the world that she's not, like, gonna have sex with three people.
Which, personally, I wouldn't care, but I think she's, like, feeling anxious about the perception of that.Or she's just trying to get ahead of Guy expecting anything physical from her.
Maybe.But as we've said before, like,
it draws more attention to it than if you just emphasize that you're really looking forward to talking, being able to talk about the things that you can't talk about on camera and like have that time to get to know each other better and like play it really chill.
If you bring up how you're not having sex with anyone, people start like really zeroing in on that and being like, well, did she?Yeah.Did she actually not have sex with anyone?Like it just puts such a spotlight on it. But I agree.
I think some of it's maybe generational and also just like, for women especially, there is that sense that it's embarrassing to their family and friends for them to have sex lives.
That's sort of my read on it.
Yeah.Guy assures Joan that he understands and awkwardly jokes.Can you... Can you, like, can you say something wrong?Can you, like, do the wrong thing?And she's like, what?And then she realizes he's kind of trying to compliment her
about this in some way like once again you've done the right thing and then he says that he also sees intimacy um as not being primarily sexual we have a clip intimacy when you're 25 is different than what it means when you're 35 and 45 and and i think of intimacy
Yes, there's a physical intimacy, but what's important, more important to me right now is the emotional intimacy.
You know how to make me feel special.
Because you're special.It's easy.He's very sweet.He's very supportive.
Yeah.And emotional intimacy is very important.The card holds a key to an overwater bungalow.This is like my personal dream fantasy suite.When I was planning my honeymoon, this was all I wanted.
And it turns out it's very expensive and hard to have the kind of honeymoon that involves one of these.
Okay, well, I'm just saying we are open.We are open for SpawnCon.If someone wants me and Claire, or just Claire, to be travel vloggers... We'll do it....we volunteer as tribute.We will stay in an overwater bungalow.I'm happy to help.
In Tahiti, on another island.
We're open.People need to know about Tahiti.That's always been my platform. The next morning, guys walking along a sandy beach in a red polo.He feels great.He got everything he needed.
It made me think of, you know, in Parks and Rec when, did you watch Parks and Recreation? There's the Nick Offerman's character, Ron Swanson, the sort of libertarian boss.
After he gets laid, he always wears like a red polo, like Tiger Woods to the office.Anyway, made me think of that.He's like feeling confident and triumphant in his red polo.He's like, I got everything I needed, so much emotional intimacy.
He says, I'm falling in love with Joan. He got everything he needed and we're still not to love, but at least we're to falling in love instead of really, really, really, really falling.So we took a small step.
The second date is Chalk, and he is walking around doing happily pensive B-roll in his white short-sleeve button-down.
I love that Chalk is always dressed for a corporate retreat.It does not matter what the temperature is.He will adapt.He has one look.And he sticks to it.
And he's very fearful that Joan has been bonding more deeply with other men.Like, the way he keeps talking about this in a way that sort of sounds like how you would talk about, like, a foster dog or something.
It's like, I'm worried that, like, they've bonded so closely that it's gonna be really hard to rehome her.You know?Oh, God. They've really had that time where they've been bonding.So Joan is in bridal white, and I think that is telling.It's telling.
Especially given what they're about to do, which is not something that I would wear bridal white gauzy dresses for.She does walk with a little bit more pep and enthusiasm toward Chalk, and she embraces him.
they whisper intimately in each other's ears about how good it is to see each other.
It's truly like night and day compared to how she is with anyone else.
She just feels so comfortable with him.She's so into him.
It's... Yeah.Like, it's a... And he says, 5,000 miles to see you.I'd go 20,000.Again, it's Tahiti.Like... How generous of you.
What a sacrifice you've made, Chalk.
Yeah, girl, I'd travel all the way to one of the most beautiful and exotic locations on Earth just to see you.On someone else's time.On someone else's time.Um, he also tells her she looks fabulous.
Meanwhile, in her in the moment, Joan says that she has suddenly realized how much she missed Chalk.Like, when she saw him, she suddenly was like, oh, I've really missed him.
She has strong feelings for him, but she's been on protect mode with him because she's still nervous about moving on and getting hurt.They're going in a sort of like, dune buggy, ATV, sort of open vehicle.
Yeah, I'm like, you wore a white dress for this?Like, your subconscious is just like, wedding, wedding, wedding, chalk, wedding, chalk.You put on a white dress.What do you think is more important to the stylist of this show?No, it's true.
They're telling a visual story. Chalk takes the wheel and whips Joan around the dirt roads of the island.In his In the Moment, he talks about how the process is driving him crazy because he has zero control, like, over who Joan is going to choose.
Fortunately, he's able to overcompensate with his driving.Like, the editing truly makes that connection so explicit.Like, finally, Chalk is behind the wheel and he can do whatever he wants with Joan.
But Joan loves it and her in the moment, she says she loved going fast in the ATV with Chuck because she trusted him and she felt safe.And it also made her feel very wanted and cherished to be driven so fast in the ATV.
That's how it works when someone speeds off road with you in the car.
It's about being cherished.I'm gonna mentally reframe how I feel when Greg doesn't use his blinkers before changing lanes. You're like, wow, I feel so cherished.
I feel so cherished by how you whipped us into the passing lane without using your left blinker.That felt, I felt very safe, loved, and desired in this moment.Thank you.
She's like, Chalk likes doing fun things and making epic memories, and that's what she wants.Afterward, they sit and have champagne by a beautiful mountain view. They gaze into each other's eyes and talk about how much they missed each other.
He says, I've missed you and the impact you've made on my life.Sorry.You've missed that?And the impact you've made on my life.
I don't think those two parts of the sentence should have been paired.
Again, it's the corporate retreat of it all.Like his language is so
just slightly off he's like so passionately into her and so romantic but then he will use these words that feel like out of place in a romantic setting like the impact you've made on my life is more something that you say like a tribute to your mentor at their retirement or imparting right
But that's clearly not what he's trying to say.
No, he's trying to say, my life has been changed by being in this relationship with you, but he... He's like, I love the impact that you've made on my life so much, and I love... He's like, the numbers are looking a lot better this quarter as a result.
The chemistry between them, though, is palpable.Like, they're vibrating in this scene.Oh, yeah.They're kissing.No, no, I believe it.Yeah, and he says, like, I'm the happiest guy, aren't I? I believe that, too.I believe it.
They spend most of their time, like, with Guy, it's talking about their families and how much they love their families and making memories with their families.And with Chalk, it's just, I missed you.I missed you, too.I missed you so much.
I really missed you and also the impact that you made on my life.Like, they just love talking about how much they miss each other.Yeah, they're just like, no, you're amazing.
No, you're amazing.I like you.No, you've made the biggest difference in my life.No, you.I've missed you.
Missed you so much. On that note, we're going to take a quick break.We'll be right back with the night date and then her final date with Pascal. And we're back.It's time for that night date.Joan is on the cruise ship in a bronze satin dress.
She says in her in the moment that Chalk is kind, moral, and honest, everything she wants.But maybe Chalk is just too good to be true.Again, it's his to lose by revealing some sort of fatal flaw. Chalk joins her for dinner on the ship.
He's very excited for the fantasy suite so they can talk about the future of her moving to Wichita, presumably.
I think he's gonna be the one to move.
I think he, yeah.But I'm eager to find out what that conversation consists of.Me too.He asks about her thoughts on what's going on and she shares how hard this part of the process is for her and that he's been on her mind a lot.
And she says she just has to take a leap of faith and let fate figure it out.And so far, it's figuring out.Chuck is ready with his elevator pitch.He's like, I'm gonna make the case for Chuck right now.
He like gets up, he's like, I have a PowerPoint with seven slides.I think you'll really understand what I'm going for at the end of this presentation.
You'll see why I'm the candidate that you should really move forward with.So he breaks a sort of cardinal bachelor rule here by explicitly talking about her other relationships and like comparing them. He's like, the other men are so great.
They have a lot to offer.But the closeness and how we work together as a couple, I think, is really worth taking to the next level.He's like, that's how I have separated myself competitively.
He's like, I'm deserving of a promotion.And it's for these reasons.Your other candidates are wonderful.They have a lot to offer to this company.They are really putting in the work.But I just think I'm the best fit for this role.
They're at the level that they should be right now, you know?They're doing great work there.He says he's crazy about her and there's so much he loves about her.For example, her characteristics and her beliefs.
What are they?We'll never know.He loves her characteristics.You know.Each of them.The things.The things about Joan.
I'm everything that chalk says to Joan, I am putting my back pocket for for Greg's next birthday card.I love your character.
I love your characteristics, your beliefs. So many things about you.
Joan says they match on a lot of things.And Chalk says he's never had any doubts.And then he gets a little bit, you know, self-critical.He's like looking at himself clearly.He says, overconfident, but that's who I am.
I don't want to be cocky, but I felt we were the right couple from day one.And he says he was awestruck when he first got out of the limo.And then he says he didn't really know how pretty she was and that he's grown to appreciate and love her more.
I thought this speech could use a little polish.I wasn't quite sure where he was going.
I have some notes. But it doesn't matter because Joan is so into him.She just breezes right on past and she's like, our first date at Disneyland.We just immediately connected.We never looked back.
It couldn't be anyone but Chalk.Yeah, I missed all the signs at Disneyland.I was like, I'm not feeling the vibe here.But all the time, Joan was like, experiencing this deep soul bonding.
Chalk brings up the memorial at his hometown date and how he saw tears in her eyes.He realized he cared for him and his family.
And he says when they were walking back to the car, he felt he couldn't let her leave without telling her he was falling in love with her.Joan seems very deeply touched by this, and says it had been such a long time since anyone said that to her.
In her in the moment, Joan says sometimes you need only one person to make you feel seen, and Chalk makes her feel seen. Does that mean that the other guys are not making her feel seen in this moment?
I wondered, like, she's like, well, you only need one person and chalks doing it.
I mean, I think Pascal is not quite Pascal's.She knows she knows that he's not that into her.Yeah, she's on guard.And with guy. Does it really matter if someone is seeing you if you don't wish to be seen by them?
I think also sometimes it doesn't feel like they're really seeing you if you don't feel that connection.Well, exactly.Yeah.You're like, they like, they like something about me.Like, it requires some reciprocity.Yeah.
Yeah, that's, that's completely true.Like, no one's like, I'm single, but there's someone that has a crush on me in my office, so.I really feel seen.I feel seen.I feel validated in my life.
And she says she has complete confidence that Chalk is not saying the things that he's saying without meaning them.She's like, he would never hurt me.He wouldn't say things he didn't mean.
That's a lot of confidence.
Never hurt you.I think anyone could hurt you.
Not Joan.Joan is sure about Chalk.She is... I admire that confidence.It's almost like, what is her... What is keeping this show from being over right now?
Like, when she and Chalk are talking about each other, it's sort of like, so what is actually missing here?Like, you feel completely sure that he would never hurt you.
No, I don't think anything's missing, except that she has to go through the process towards the end, because she has a contract.Well, exactly.They're just, like, not hiding that very well.
Wouldn't it be incredible if she ended up rejecting Chalk for Guy?Like, that would be the biggest twist in history.I would never see that coming.
Then they have edited something very wrong.
She says, the last person I fell in love with, I fell in love with for 32 years.
I feel like... I thought she was gonna say, I feel like I'm falling in love with Chalk, or I feel like I'm in love with Chalk, but she says, I feel like I'm in a great place with Chalk.
Do you think, I forget, did we see her say this to the camera?Or was it chopped up in some way?
I think it was chopped up at least a little bit, but I don't remember if any of it was to the camera.Chalk, meanwhile, tells her that she is the best thing that's ever happened to him.I hope his kids aren't watching.
Traditionally, that is what we tell our children, Chalk. Do you even love your family?It's very important to Joan.She whips out the fantasy suite card and then gives him the speech about not having sex, and Chalk is so down to not have sex.
He's like, I hope this is the first of a thousand or ten thousand overnights.Chased nights.He's like, yes!We'll never have sex.He's like, there are so many to come.Like, do we need to have sex now when there's gonna be... You know what?
That's so true....one to ten thousand overnights together? And he says, I feel like I'm 25 years old again.I'm in love.I've got this great, beautiful woman that's full of love.
It's so interesting.I'm noticing so much given the conversations you and I have had in previous recaps about the language of youth that we use around with love.Like so many, almost everyone talks about
feeling like a kid again or feeling younger, feeling more youthful because they're having these feelings or wanting to feel like a kid again, but then like not getting to, and that being an indication that something's wrong.
Yeah, that's really true.There is such like a strong cultural association between youth and love and like the phase of life that you go into after that is about commitment and like the everyday and not about those exciting new feelings.
And it's very, they feel that strong association with the self that had those feelings when they were much younger.Um, no, I definitely noticed that as well.And They go into the suite and make out on the couch... passionately.
I was like, wow, it's going down.He closes the door on the cameras and says, good night, have a good evening.So polite to the end, Chalk.Midwestern king.The next morning, Chalk is journaling.
We don't get any bed scenes.
I wonder if Joan was like, I don't want that.
It seems like it.Like, she was like, I said I'm not having sex, but furthermore, I don't even want it to seem through implication.But not even any, like, breakfast?
No, it's, yeah.I was, I had questions.
With Chaka, it seems like they're being, he's being quite explicit of, like, in saying, like, I slept on the couch.He's like, it was a fun night, I'm tired, we had champagne, I had a big comfy couch, and I had Joan.
But then, the producers ask what they did, and he gives such a, like, a gentleman-doesn't-kiss-and-tell answer.I think we have a clip.
Well, what did we do?That's, uh, that's between Joan and myself.If she wants to talk about it, she can, but, uh, you know, my lips are sealed.And that's the beauty of the fantasy suites, is that's just between two adults.
And, uh, but we had a great time.I-I couldn't, I would tell you, it was, it was everything I expected and more.
I mean, that seems like a very strong, like, insinuation that they hooked up.
Like... Yeah, whether or not he meant it, too.He's like, that's just between two consenting adults.
Right.I'm not going to tell you about the conversation that we had while sitting on the couch.Like, no, the implication is that there's something that Joan would not want revealed.But, okay.
Um, and he says he can see himself getting engaged to Joan, but he doesn't want to put the cart before the horse.
cut to Joan getting ready for her big date with Pascal.She has strong feelings for Pascal, she says, and she reiterates that a big part of her pull towards him is that he reminds her of John.
She was concerned that she might be further along than he was, but after last week's rose ceremony, he whispered to her that his walls were coming down.So she's feeling pretty good.
Um, unfortunately, she shouldn't be.Yeah, I don't know why he said his walls were coming down, because we start this episode, and he's like... He's like, my walls are up.
They're up.They're constantly up.Can I put them down?Who can say?
He's like, the walls have never been stronger.The walls are standing firm. He sits down for a chat with therapist Jesse, and he's like just here to have fun.
Like Jesse's like, oh, Tahiti, it's my bucket list.And Jesse's like, let's talk about our feelings.
We had a very serious conversation with Joan in Chicago.It's like, Jesse's like, I'm sorry, you didn't want to be in Tahiti.You came here as a sacrifice because you care so much for Joan.Like, what do you mean you want to be in Tahiti?
That's so wrong reasons. Let's talk about Joan and what you said to her in Chicago.And Pascal says again that he was in love with someone and almost engaged a year ago, and he gives some more details.They were together for two years.
They broke up and got back together a few times.But they had a fire between them, and that woman is still on his mind.
he kind of compares it to how John is always with Joan.I'm like, mm, Pascal, it's a little different if the person's alive.
Well, that's the thing.If John were still alive, it would be really quite concerning how much she's thinking about John.Right.Because if he were alive, she would still be with him, because she's in love with him.Right.
And she wishes that he could be with her.
What it's giving is you're still into your ex.
Yeah.Yeah.And I get the sense that, like, Pascal is a lot like John in certain ways that Joan likes.They had a sort of balancing each other out kind of relationship.
I get the sense that Pascal goes for women who are a bit more like him in energy, typically, and that Joan is maybe on the reserved end. Oh, you might be right.
Like, he brings up the fire that I think is like, even when Joan is really intimate with Chuck, it's not so much fiery energy, it's like... Right, it's intimate, it's connected, it's intense, but yeah, it's not...
Yeah, Pascal, I think, likes the rarr.I don't know.Um, and so, he says he wants to move on, but he's having a tough time.He's hurting.And he says that it's very hard for him to open up.
He comes from a bleeped-up background, and his childhood was very hard, as we've learned in previous episodes.And he gets emotional thinking about it.We have a clip.
When you're alone, The only person you have to take care of is yourself.And when you have nobody who's there for you, you got to survive, you know?
And yes, people look at me with my fancy car, my fancy clothes, and my French accent, and your lifestyle, and they say, oh God, this guy, they don't know where I come from.They have no idea where I come from.No idea.
I feel like Pascal has cried more in the few weeks being on this show than, like, in his entire adult life.I get the sense that this has been very cleansing for him.
Yeah.Yeah, it's really opened him up.And you know what?He clocked me.I looked at him with his fancy car and his French accent, and I had no idea where he was.
You know, we made assumptions.And he is... He has been a real bright light, frankly, on the show in a way that I did not expect him to be.
It's interesting that he ended up having kind of the exact trajectory you would expect for making that assumption, which is something I want to keep an eye on.Oh, absolutely.
I think he had sort of a predictable trajectory, but the way that it plays out is not... He doesn't approach it, I think, fully in the way that I would have expected.
yeah him to approach i know i have a very warm feeling toward pascal but then i'm like how did this happen how did we end up here yeah you you simply weren't ready and you didn't think that it would get this far i think i would be much more cynical about pascal as a figure if he were 32 and he were on regular bachelorette and there is a generosity that i want to extend to the motivations on golden that i'm like
let's look at what he actually did.But I also just like love Pascal.So that's, you know, that's the complexity.And therapist Jesse loves Pascal also.He's like, yes, Pascal, you are misunderstood.
I know a Pascal who is kind and loves his children and people should see that.And Pascal says that his kids want him to be happy.His son told him, you know, eventually we're going to move out and we don't want you to be alone.
So Pascal is ready to move on with the right person, and he says, maybe Joan is that person.I don't think so.
At this point I was like, I doubt it, buddy.Yeah, I don't think so.Not seeing it.When they part, Jesse is like, bon chance.And you just know he is like crying inside that he didn't get to have a fully French conversation.
He's like, I want people to remember that I don't have a noticeable French accent, but I do speak French fluently.
This is a show that, whenever possible, is about Jesse's bilingual... Yeah, and I really think they didn't give him enough opportunity to flex that muscle, given that we have an actual Frenchman.
They should have done the whole thing in closed captioning, in subtitles, with, uh, they get to speak French, really speak openly.We learned on Emily in Paris this season how important it is.Exactly.
That's what I was thinking about.I was like, Pascal.Pascal would have the barrier.
Pascal can never say what he really feels.He can never say what he really feels if he can't speak to Jessie in French. Just an idea for them for, you know, the future.
But it's time for Pascal to have his date and he gets dressed in a yellow linen button up for this occasion.He says he's looking for a life partner to travel with and make breakfast with.Make breakfast with Pascal?
I've never seen you make breakfast with anyone.Pascal, do you make breakfast?I think you direct others to make breakfast for you.
Someone to make me breakfast every morning so that I don't always have to go out for breakfast, which is, frankly, just kind of a hassle.
What would he do with his tab at Hometown Cafe, though?They would go out of business without him.
He's going into this date with an open mind to try and bring his walls down.Those walls, they're there, but maybe he can knock them down.Joan says on her end that her hope is that it goes great and he's going to be meeting my family next week.
So we know how Joan came into this week.She was like, it's Pascal and Chuck, hopefully.I really think, like, you can, like, she almost explicitly said, like, last week when she was like, I want to take a leap of faith.
That was her saying, like, I don't know if Pascal is really into me, but if maybe he is, and then maybe he'll be the one.And... it didn't work out.
Of course, he is getting the spiritual ceremony cleansing ritual cultural spotlight slash a little bit of maybe exploitation date.
I feel like they did such a good job with the Maori dates during Jen's season, and it's just like right back to... You know, I had some mixed feelings about this Tahitian ceremonial date.
I felt like they were still trying to use some like specificity and like showing... Yes, I was glad they at least named the ceremonies and they at least said this
you know, is a traditional Tahitian.
But then was it, you know, that's the thing that I got caught up.Okay.So let's, let's go through the, the, these elements of this before we get into the date.One is that
They're going to sample like a Tahitian feast and there's like a welcoming ceremony that we were told is called a la or a na ceremony.
We both googled this and could not establish that this is a real ceremony, but it does mean hello.
Yeah, la hora na means hello.
I have no evidence that this is, like, a real ceremony, which I think is, like... Also, you're like, is this a real ceremony or is this a real ceremony that they offer to white tourists?
Right, it seems more like this is, like, a performance, like, sort of thing that is maybe traditionally... Done in the hospitality industry.
But like, yeah, we're not experts on the culture either.But then it's like part of me wants to be like, it's so great that they were specific about this.And then another part of me is like, well, I can I trust what they're telling me about this?
Or are they just trying to turn it into this like neat package for our consumption? And we do see like the way they're preparing the feast.There's... I loved the feast part.I thought this was great.
They show us what we are told is a traditional Polynesian oven called an umu.And we see like the dancers and the musicians performing this welcoming ceremony.And then there's like a bonding ceremony.
That's what really starts to shake Pascal.He's very into the welcome.No, they don't.
But this actually seemed more like a real ceremony to me.Like it has components of a traditional Tahitian wedding ceremony that you can read about in various sources.So like they named the one that I'm not sure if there are any like real
Like if that's really based in like a traditional Tahitian thing and then the other one they didn't necessarily name and then they kind of used it in a bachelor friendly way as you do anyway.
sort of complex feelings about the different components of that, but they go into the date ready to have a fun day.Pascal is like, I just want it to be fun and full of laughter.It doesn't matter what we do today.
It could be anything, a walk, a hike, sailing, anything.It turns out there are some things he really doesn't want to do. talk about his feelings.Yeah, he's like I three great options a walk a hike sailing and instead we're talking about my feelings.
I hate this.He's into the first part though.
He loves the the welcome ceremony.He's very into the Tahitian feast.He's very into the fact that he can speak French to all of their hosts because of course people in Tahiti speak French.Yeah, it's French Polynesia.It's French Polynesia.
And they sample foods.Joan is not that into the breadfruit. But she does love the banana.
I was like, that's great to hear, Joan.I can't believe you're just trying a banana for the first time.Pascal does seem to like the breadfruit, though.
I'm sure.And he's mostly just so excited that everyone speaks French.He's like, it's wonderful.I feel home.I feel comfortable.They speak my language.The bread is fantastic.The food is great.There's nothing to not like.I loved his enthusiasm.
It was so cute. He's also very intent on figuring out whether the chicken they're eating is rooster or hen, which leads to, I think, an incredible exchange with their host.We have a clip.
The chicken is delicious.I've never eaten rooster before, I don't think, but it tastes just like chicken.
It's a rooster or it's a chicken?C'est un coq or c'est un poulet?
C'est quoi la différence?
C'est la crête?C'est le coq.C'est quoi la différence?C'est la crête.C'est le chicken.Quand je le regarde, c'est un coco rico.C'est un coq.That's a coq.
I like that Pascal is fun, that everything is an adventure, nothing's impossible.He is a zest for life and makes me feel like life could be exciting.
Oh my God, so many things I love about this, but first of all, I've never had rooster, but it tastes just like chicken.Well, it is chicken, so that makes sense. Also, the way that people in different languages do animal sounds is fascinating to me.
I love it.I love it.Like, you think of the English sounds that we use as just being the sound they make, but obviously, they don't actually say cock-a-doodle-doo.There are so many ways that you can transliterate that.
Like, it's just fascinating to me.Right, he's like, kook-a-ree, koo.I'm like, yeah, that's what it sounds like.Yeah.Yeah.
He just seems so comfortable.You can tell why it would be really fun to date Pascal.He, like, makes everyone feel comfortable.He's making jokes with their hosts.He's really connecting to the people around him.Like, I get why Joan is really into it.
Yeah, I would love to be married to Pascal in my golden years as we travel the globe together.Sure.That looks like a lot of fun. And it's time to bring the vibe down a little bit with a bonding ceremony where they have to talk about their feelings.
And this, to me, looked like basically just a Bachelor-friendly adaptation of Tahitian wedding rituals.Like, they do this thing on the show where they always somehow find, like, a local indigenous tradition that is exactly the same thing.
It's always like, name something you want to let go of from your past and look forward to the future and then we'll do this cleansing thing and that will be about you moving past this trauma and into the future together.
They have one of those apparently literally everywhere you go.
I mean, to be fair, I think about like religions in this country and I feel that there are, I feel like you could probably find some sort of release for the future ritual in, like, almost every culture.
Well, but that's the thing.I'm like, I think there are things where if you went to, say, a Catholic church that you could be like, oh, well, like, that's sort of like baptism.But are you going to do, like, a baptism to symbolize that?
You know what I mean?Like, I don't know how much is real and how much is... How out of context this stuff is. when they do this with other people's cultures.
Whereas if it were in like the culture I was raised in, I might be like, oh, that makes sense.Or I might be like, that's a weird way to twist that into what you need for this show.Because it seems like what they're drawing from are wedding rituals.
For example, like you would do the hand binding and then pour ocean water, coconut water over the clasped hands to wash away the past and go into the future together.And instead, they they have to do the bachelor thing.
That's like you each say the thing that's holding you back and then you're individually cleansed.And so that's what they do.And Pascal's like, I want to release my wall to bring someone into my life.
And Joan says she wants to release her fear of letting someone in and her fear that she won't be honoring John's memory. and they wash each other's hands with the ocean water.
And then they do the hand-binding ceremony with the ot leaves, which is like another traditional wedding ritual. And in voiceover, Joan says that she wasn't going to say I love you until the literal end of this process.
But now she's at the end of her journey and her heart is completely open.And she talks about her guilt about moving on after losing John.But after this week, I'm not scared anymore.
I see a future and I have hope of finding someone again that I could have that kind of love with.
I wondered if this was pulled from a few different interviews because none of it was said to the camera. And, like, especially the second part could have been from earlier in the season.And the first part could have been about anyone.
But I think that they are trying to give us the impression that she's all in on Pascal.They want us to think that she's about to say, I love you.
Yeah, she's like, I wasn't going to say I love you, but now I feel like I can say I love you.But we never see her say that she loves Pascal.
Yeah, I actually, I think they're playing this up.
Yeah.And then we see Pascal's in the moment, which is a very different vibe.We have a clip.
This is not what I thought we would be doing today.You know, I mean, I enjoy being with Joan.Don't get me wrong.I mean, I just enjoy your company.But I thought I'll have something more casual, something more like just being silly, being kids again.
You know, not something where we have to basically talking about our feeling emotion.I wasn't ready for that. You know, I appreciate the thought behind it, and I did my very best to show her who I am, but my world's still up, and I've got it.
I'm scared.I'm not ready.I'm not ready for that.I'm not ready.
He seems like mad that he got this date.He's like, what the fuck, guys?
I do wonder if he sees a little bit what they're doing.
Maybe.I mean, I think that... I think that it's possible that basically what they did was a wedding ceremony, and that that maybe felt too real to him, and maybe kind of gave him a jolt of like, what am I doing?
Like, this is a nice lady that I don't want to marry.Yeah.
That's the thing, because I do believe, as we see later, that he really cares about Joan, and he doesn't want to hurt her.And then suddenly, he's like, wait, what if I... What if I am the one for her?
Like they don't know where they're at in terms of the other men.
It's just like there's something that kind of rubs me the wrong way about being like, whatever I do with Joan is going to be amazing.And then he's like, no, this was not on the label.I didn't want this date.I thought it would be casual.
I would get to be like a kid and I wouldn't have to talk about my feelings.Pascal, there is a proposal in a week. Like, you're gonna have to talk about your feelings.
She's like, I was prepared to talk about my feelings later in the day, but not during this portion of the day.Oh, my God.
It's like, no, this process obviously has to be about, like, I get to be a kid during the day, and then at night I talk about feelings, and my walls were up right now, and maybe tonight they would be down, but you brought up feelings at the wrong time, and now everything is ruined.
Now it's over.Now it's over. So it's time for the night date.And Pascal says he has a lot on his mind he needs to share with Joan.We know it's not going to be good.He's like, I want to be loved.I want to love and be loved.
And he thought he could be 100 percent in this experience.But the ceremony really freaked him out.So, yeah, no, things are going to go great.
This was, like, just such a switch.Like, everything was fine.And then after the ceremony, he's, like, visibly agitated.And, like, what the fuck did I do?Like, why am I here?
And they meet on one of the ship decks, each dressed in black for the funereal occasion.It's like they both knew on some level.And Jonah's like, we match.And it's like, yeah, everyone matches at a funeral.
She has also on, like, a navy fur coat that looks very chic. And she's in great spirits.She had a great day.She's like, Pascal, what did you think about today?And he's like, it's time.
He again brings up to Joan that he was in love with someone last year and he got hurt big time.His kids signed him up for Golden Bachelorette.And then when he met Joan, he thought she was attractive, but he didn't think he would last that long.
He's a lover, not a fighter.There's so much competition, 24 guys.And he's like, why me?Why am I here?"And I was like, wow.
Like, I feel like maybe the accent and, like, his persona is masking this a little bit, but this sounds like such a, like, almost wrong reasons confession to me.Like, I came for a fun time and I didn't think I would win, so I just kept hanging out.
And, like, why am I still here?
It feels like he got swept away. and then just sort of clocked in and was like, oh, no, I didn't think I would still be here.
Like, why are you asking why me now?Like, she met your family last week.And he's like, what?I didn't think I could win.You're telling me I could win?Ah, no, I didn't sign up for that.
He's like, I was, I just signed up to be here until Joan sent me home.Yeah.And I thought that would be sooner.
Yeah, Joan takes this more straightforwardly as like a need for validation.
And she's like, I'm a little hesitant to say this, but you remind me of my late husband because he embraced life like you do and everything about your life you do in a big way.John did the same thing.
She stresses that she's not looking for a replacement for John, but she wants somebody to have a fun, adventurous future with. And she's like, you know, there's so many reasons why you're here.
Like, she's really like, don't... Yeah, I really have these real feelings for you.But what he's actually saying is like, how did this happen?
He didn't need validation.And I think that this is his signal for like, okay, I need to end this relationship.So he tells her that today he got scared and he's having a difficult time letting go.
He says he cares about Joan very much and he doesn't want to hurt her. but he doesn't think he can get to the place where she wants him to be.And Joan looks kind of jolted, like shocked at this.
And you can see that immediately she's like trying not to cry, but she's such a composed person that she sort of forces a little half smile onto her face and it's like just keeps nodding.She's like, you know, If you're not ready, it's one thing.
If you're never going to be ready, it's another thing.And this is when Pascal tells her that he knows what love is and she knows what love is.And he cares about Joan as a friend, but he's not in love with her.
They have a great time together, but he needs that spark and they just don't have it.
And he also says, I think trying to smooth this, like soften the blow, he says, right now I'm what we call damaged goods.Like basically I'm not actually healed and ready to fall in love again.
This just seems like an excuse to me.I think the first part is the truth, which is I like you, but I don't feel it. that romantically with you.And then you're beautiful and you're wonderful, but like, it's not there.
And then he's trying to be like, oh, that's maybe we just don't have a spark because I'm broken.Because I'm broken.And Joan latches on to this, understandably.She's like, your heart's just not ready.I wish you were ready, but you can't force that.
And Pascal says, I'm not there.And he chokes up.
This was like the mirror reverse of her breakup with Mark, where I think Joan is to protect someone's feelings, in this case hers, she's like taking refuge in that franchise trope of like, they can't get there on the Bachelor timeline.
And it's really another reason, which is that... She's just not there.He's just not that into her.
Yeah.But this would be, it's really destabilizing for this to happen to the lead at this point in the process. And that's kind of, I think, what we're seeing here.
She tells the camera that this is not how she pictured the state going, but life has a funny way of not turning out how you thought it would.And Pascal asks Joan if she'll be okay, and she says, of course I will be, like, it's all right.
And he says that he cares about her very much.And then he talks to the camera, and I think says something that's very perceptive.We have a clip.
She tried to say, it's OK, it's OK.I knew it's not OK.When you get hurt, you try to overcome by saying, oh, I'm OK, it's OK, it's OK, to try to protect yourself.But I could see it.I could feel it.
You know, the way she was holding my hand, I knew she was not OK.
Yeah.OK, straight.Come on. No, I'm not okay.I'm not okay.Get away from it.I hate to hurt people.I'm hurt right now.I'm hurt and I've hurt her.And I feel terrible about that.Terrible.Terrible.
This softened me to Pascal a bit.Yeah.Like there is an honesty there that I
and like an ability to pick up on someone else's feelings that in that moment that I did appreciate it felt like a more compassionate breakup than ones that we would see like on the younger version of the show.
Yeah, I think the fact that he's willing to own that he hurt her.Yeah, exactly.
And he's also like, I did that.And it sucks.And, and I know that she's not okay, because no one would be okay, because this is a situation that is hurtful.
And he's also not asking her to, like, comfort him for how hard it is to break up with her, which we see sometimes.Yeah.But at the same time, he's not playing it cool in a way that's like, this doesn't matter to me.He's like, this hurts.Yeah.
This is hard for me.I hurt someone.And that all feels like, yes, evolved compared to what we often see on the younger franchise.Exactly.
It also just made me feel like, oh, he's like the anti-Juan Pablo.
Oh, yeah.He's like, no, you're saying it's okay, but it is not okay.
I know, it's not okay.But I like that it's not like he's trying to convince her she's not okay.He's telling the camera, like, I see what's going on.And he's trying to give her the space by basically being like, go away to the cameras.Yeah.
She needs some space, I can tell.Yeah.And I'm going to try to give that to her even though I've just hurt her. And they share this, like, really sad and sweet hug as they part.I thought this was really lovely.
And Joan tells Pascal, like, go be happy.And he's like, I want you to be safe, take care of yourself.And he says, I'm just a phone call away.And she says, she is too.And they say, like, I love you to each other before they part.
It felt like there was, like, a respect there.Yeah.
I know.I was left with, like, a... I felt better about it than I normally would.I felt like he tried to be very honest and respectful.
And also, I was, like, annoyed that he started the breakup by being like, I never thought I would get this far, and now that I'm here, I guess I have to dump you.And that kind of annoyed me, so I was a little back and forth.
I was like, why didn't we clock in on some of this earlier?Like, you just assumed that it would work itself out for you.But I do love Pascal.I hope that they stay friends and that he's a good friend to her.
I bet they are still friends because I don't know if you saw, but he dressed up as Joan for Halloween.
Yeah, I saw that. I just feel like it's probably not something you do.
HALLOWEEN POSTING WAS VERY REVEALING IN GOLDEN BACHELORETTE NATION, BY THE WAY, BECAUSE WHO ELSE DID WE SEE IN A HALLOWEEN SELFIE WITH AN ACTRESS WHO I KNOW FROM ONE TREE HILL, MARK?Okay, yes.What is going on here?
Is he dating an actress now?Like, what is happening?I have a lot of questions about that.I was like, first of all, why do I know this woman's face?Oh, because I watched The WB.Yeah. And then I was like, why is Mark?Like, what's happening?
I need... I have questions.
There is a confusing... And then, like, Jordan and Leslie were in a selfie together, and everyone was like, are they dating?Like, are these... I don't think they're dating.Are they just like, we need to hit the beach before the beach?
I think they were just hanging out.That makes sense, because they're... They're just like two Jews in the Midwest.
It doesn't surprise me that they would hang out.
No, I was just like, what is going on this weekend?But I also felt like this breakup was way more dramatic in the teaser than it ended up being. Again, I think Joan is just very... Well, they're just more mature people, and Joan is very reserved.
The end of Golden Bachelor was so chaotic and painful and dramatic.But I do think that, like... That's true....Joan is very reserved and controlled.And I also think that she's not 100%.She didn't have all her eggs in the Pascal basket.
Unlike with, you know, some other situations.Also, it's like... Ugh. It's always, why is it always the men who get to dump?
Like, I feel like... I know, it's so annoying.I want there to be a bloodbath where she breaks so many men's hearts.Don't worry, Joan will get to break up with Guy.I can, I can feel it.
Yeah, I'm just like, I'm annoyed that this always happens.And I also was like, I love Joan, but like, she's so, so, so self protective and so reserved that like, there's this heart wrenching, out of nowhere breakup, and it's, it's over.
And I'm like, that was it.That's, that was very chill.
That was a very different that I think we than what we saw, for example, with Leslie and what we would have gotten from a Leslie season.She's just like a lot less reserved with her emotional expressions.
I want a Leslie season also.Me too.
I just want to see.I love all of those women so much.I know.Including Joan. And afterwards, you can tell that Joan is rattled by this breakup.She talks to the camera, this time I want to say in a different black dress.
So I was like, did they, was this filmed the next day?Because it is to the camera, it does seem to be about this situation. I had questions.Yeah, it was definitely filmed at a different time.Yeah, it was definitely filmed at a different time.
She says she spent a lot of years trying to be perfect, pushing her own needs down for the sake of her kids, and only really expressing her emotions in private.And I think that really comes through in her reaction to this breakup.
That she's sort of like, your hurt is something that you suppress, and then you go cry alone in your room, and you don't show that to anyone.
Yeah, and then it's hard to ever show it to anyone.It just becomes the way you are.And she says, but if I'm going to be honest, it hurts.
And then she says, the way he said it when he said, I know what true love is, and I don't feel that for you, it made me know that he knew how to love, and he just couldn't.Like, I wasn't lovable. So she's had time to process and she's like, yeah.
She knows it wasn't that he wasn't ready.Yeah, this wasn't a timeline issue.She's not a dummy.This wasn't like a damaged goods, like still getting over a heartbreak issue.
But then, of course, the only other conclusion is obviously that she's not good enough, because either people are not ready or you are bad.Those are the two reasons that you aren't in a relationship.
I do think there's something so human about that, though.Yeah. Like being rejected, you're like, well, obviously it's because I'm a piece of trash.
Even if intellectually you would never say that to a friend or a child, you would – like when you're not in that moment, you don't believe that.
But that's still kind of what you go to because you're like, well, if I was better, they wouldn't have left.
Yeah.Yeah. Jones says that she feels like a failure.She had started feeling more and more hopeful along this journey, but now her hope is down to nothing.She says she had 24 people in the beginning.Now she's down to the last.
She says three, and this is why I was also confused about the timeline of when this was filmed.So I was like, well, no, now you're down to two.Well, but then it's like, what would she be talking about if it wasn't this also?Right, no, it has to be.
Or maybe she's just saying she's down to the week where it's the last three.And she might leave with nobody.And she might leave with no one.And so she's feeling afraid again.And this is the somber note we end this episode on.
But we do get, I think, a really fun teaser.We get some footage from the finale and also actual footage from the Men Tell All.Usually they don't give us, like, real footage, and we got it.
We see from the finale that, like, Joan is wondering if anyone will love her.I think Chalk will.And Nancy is still around to hug her friend, thank God. something is happening that is not what Guy was expecting at all.
And something else is happening that Chalk says is a big problem.I guess we'll have to wait and find out.But first, the men tell all, which looks more joyful than, like, any men tell all I can ever recall.
I was like, I am looking forward to a men tell all for the first time basically ever. It's just gonna be a friendship fest.We see Dan being like, these are my friends for life.Charles L. has dyed his hair.He's like, I'm a celebrity now.
It's time for a dye job.Yeah, women in the audience are like, date my mom.And it's like, yeah, get it, Charles L. Yeah, hell yeah.
I love that for Charles L. We also see that Jonathan is definitely getting a hot seat.And I was like, huh, future bachelor? I don't know.Pascal, of course, is also going to be there and be in the hot seat.
And Joan comes out looking like straight fire.She is so hot.And I did – at this point, I'm just like mentally – having looked at so many dresses around wedding stuff, I am now clocking every dress.
that Joan is wearing, I was like, ah, I see Joan has worn a cult Gaia gown for the occasion.You're like, I looked at that dress.Yeah.And then a row dark dress for the finale.I'm clocking them all.Amazing.Great.
Honestly, Joan is great style, great taste, and they are addressing her so fabulously.
I one thing I remembered at the very end of this episode is that we saw that clip of Joan saying to chalk like I have wondered if your feelings have faded.And that didn't happen in this episode.I wonder if that happens in the finale.
Um, or if it just, like, was such an actual non-issue that they didn't even think it was worth.
They just didn't even do it.
I don't remember what they were wearing and stuff to even track if it was the same.Yeah, we'd have to look back.But that's, oh, good call.
So I wonder if there's gonna be some issue with chalk, actually, or if they're just, like, messing with us with these, like, little bits that don't actually mean anything.I think it's gonna be chalk.
Shall we move on to love to see it, hate to see it?Let's do it.Let's start with hate to see it.Get that bad stuff out of the way. First, we hate to see so much time devoted to blatant advertising.
It was like the first several minutes of the episode was pure SponCon.Guys, you gotta disguise it a little bit better.Sprinkle it in with the other stuff.We understand, we understand you do like in-kind marketing.
We understand that's the deal with the show, but like tone it down.
Let them talk about it like a human person talks. Uh, although, in a way, it's almost like a form of disclosure.Uh, we also hate to see just the lack of spark between Guy and Joan.
Like, it really feels like she's coming down to the end with only one option that she would be excited about.And... I don't know.I think she deserves more.I agree.
And finally, we hate to see Joan just getting rejected and hurt and feeling like a failure.We're protective of her.
I just, yeah, I hate to see every season with a female lead ending with at least one of the guys having a late realization that he's not into her.I know.
This never happens the other way around.I know.
And it should happen more the other way around because men need to fear.They need to live in fear.Yeah, I hate that. And now it's time for Love to See It.We love to see a Nancy Joan reunion.We love to see a Nancy on the show.Always makes me happy.
We love it.We love friendship and we love Nancys. We also love to see Pascal being perceptive and really recognizing that Joan wasn't okay after he ended things.
Men are gonna still do the breakup where they clock in out of nowhere and dump you, but at least we can take refuge in the fact that when they get older, they will perhaps be able to own that they hurt you.
Yeah, men, they really do grow and change and I stand by that.I will never be disappointed in making that claim.We love to see Pascal and Joan vowing to love each other as friends and stay in touch afterwards.Friendship is so important.
It's not just about romance.
Honestly, it really is the center of this show. I believe in the friendship more than the romance.Yes.Although, speaking of the romance, we do love to see Joan and Chalk basically being engaged already.
I just personally need to hear about what their relocation plans are.
Yeah.I feel like Guy's last chance date is gonna be Joan being like, I wonder if I can bring myself to feel anything stronger than friendship for this nice man.
And her last date with Chalk is going to be like designing their wedding registry together.
Yeah, that about sounds right.It's time for our Girl Dad rating out of 10 tiny tea parties.As predicted, we've plummeted.Yeah.
We don't, the girls do not want to be involved in the narrative of Fantasy Suite Week, and the dads don't want them to be involved either.
And that's fair.Yeah.That's, you know, between two adults and not the children.
So yeah, it's like a one.I don't think we hear any daughters being mentioned, although everyone remaining has a daughter.They're not really explicitly mentioned. Pascal's son is mentioned, but I don't think any other children.
That does not count.That's a point off, actually.Yeah.So, I don't know.Is it a zero?Maybe a one?Because there were a couple mentions of how much these men love their children that include daughters.Yeah.Okay.A one.Well, we'll see.
We'll see where we get in our ratings as the season comes to an end. But on that note, that is it for this episode of Love to See It with Emma and Claire.
Love to See It is produced by us, Claire Fallon and Emma Gray, and Stitcher.This episode was edited by Talyn Stradley.Tatyana Kanee Smith is our production assistant.Our theme music is by Tamar Habib and our art is by Erin Nestor.
If you like our show, please remember to follow us, rate us five stars, leave a review, and of course, spread the word to all of your friends about Love to See It.
If you want to get in touch, you can email us at clarentemmapod at gmail.com.
You can also find us on TikTok at lovetoseeitpod and on Instagram at clarentemmapod.And you can find our newsletter-rich text on Substack at clarentemma.substack.com.I'm also on social media at emmaladierose.And I'm at Clare E. Fallon.
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