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In this episode of The Biggest Table, I am joined by Caleb Campbell, a pastor and the author of Disarming the Viathan to discuss Christian nationalism.
Pastor Campbell shares his insights on American Christian nationalism, defining it as a political ideology, a tribal identity, and a spiritual ideolatry.
He recounts the challenges he faced leading his church through the polarization of the 2016 and 2020 elections.
Campbell describes his approach to addressing Christian nationalism, which involves engaging with compassion rather than combativeness, and emphasizes the importance of hospitality and heart-to-heart conversations.
He offers practical advice for Christians on how to disciple and cultivate unity within their congregations amidst political and ideological divides.Enjoy the episode. Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Biggest Table.
I am your host, Andrew Camp.And in this podcast, we explore the table, food, eating, and hospitality as an arena for experiencing God's love and our love for one another.And today, I'm excited to be joined by Caleb Campbell.
Pastor Campbell graduated summa cum laude with a master's of arts in ministry from Phoenix Seminary in 2015, and is currently a doctoral student at Fuller Theological Seminary.
He has served at Desert Springs Bible Church in Phoenix, Arizona since 2006, serving as lead pastor since 2015.He also serves on the board of United Pastors of Arizona and as the statewide regional director of the Surge Network.
He is the founder and director of Disarming Leviathan Ministries, which produces a podcast, explainer videos, and training material to equip people to missionally engage American Christian nationalists.
His book, Disarming Leviathan, which is published by InterVarsity Press, equips Christians to minister to their Christian nationalist neighbors.
It introduces the basics of Christian nationalism and explores the reason so many people are attracted to it, and provides a field guide for responding to American Christian nationalist talking points, along with questions and responses that humbly subvert their claims and cultivate deeper heart-level conversations.
So thanks for joining me, Caleb.It's great to connect with you.
Yeah, Andrew, it's my pleasure to be with you today.
So Noah, I have really enjoyed reading your book, Disarming Leviathan, as it's been a challenge for me personally, of just that middle way.
So as we talk about Christian nationalism, before we take deep dives, can you give us a 30,000-foot-level definition, so we're all operating on the same definition today?
American Christian nationalism as I understand it, which the lens I'm viewing this movement through is a missiological lens as a missionary.
So I understand American Christian nationalism as we see it today as three things at the same time, a political ideology, a tribal identity, and a spiritual idolatry.
So first, the political ideology is basically that Christians should run the government to protect and propagate their way of being in the world.
There's all sorts of variations on that theme, exactly how that plays out, but that's at its root, the political ideology.The tribal identity is used to describe an identifiable people group.This is common in mission work.
where you're trying to describe a people group that view themselves as a people group, where there's insiders and outsiders, there's taboos, there's heroes, there's villains, deep origin story, hopes for the future, even things like food and music and dress.
And so in a sense, American Christian nationalism also serves as a surrogate for ethnicity.It's a way to define an identifiable people group.So that's it as a tribal identity.And then finally, a spiritual idolatry.
Within the current American Christian nationalist movement, you see two distinct forms of idolatry.One would be empire worship.
So if you read through the New Testament, you'll see that empire worship is a temptation for the early church to worship and venerate the military and economic power of Rome.Caesar was deified in the days of the early church.
And second, syncretism, which is a common phrase in missionary work, and it's a word that's used to describe the conflation or the mixing together of aspects of the Christian religion with aspects of the local culture, local tribal religions, etc.
So an example of syncretism real quick in America would be the Santa Claus figure in the Christmas story.Christmas around the world does not include the Santa Claus figure.It's a primarily Western idea that gets synced up with the Christmas story.
So we see that there's like the nativity, which would be an icon or an image that comes from scripture. And sometimes we'll place a Santa Claus next to that nativity, syncing up the two things.
So American Christian nationalism is a political ideology, tribal identity, spiritual idolatry.
Right.Wow.That's great.That's super helpful.Because you being a pastor in Phoenix, Arizona and Phoenix hasn't always gotten good press when it comes to political ideology.
Not as of late.And so as a pastor, what's been your story?Because this book comes out of actual experience and not just theory.
The church that I currently serve, so I met the Lord at this church in 2001, came on staff in 2006, I became the lead pastor in 2015.And in 2015, I thought I knew what I was getting myself into.
As a non-denominational Bible church in the North Phoenix suburbs, we're currently 47 years old, so pretty well established.My predecessor had led for 30 years really well.He continues to be my pastor to this day.
and we had a great transition, and I thought I knew what I was getting into.As a church, we had been, generally speaking, apolitical.You might occasionally have a conversation about abortion issues or marriage issues, but by and large,
There was not a push to endorse candidates.There was not a push to vote a certain way.
We recognize there's Democrats and Republicans and Libertarians in the congregation and had also been involved in things like caring for refugees, immigration reform. making sure that people were treated humanely.
As Phoenicians, border issues are a big deal.And we also see a lot of folks in desperate need.And so that coupled with conversations around racial reconciliation, part of my background has to do with racism.
I was a neo-Nazi skinhead before meeting the Lord.And so part of my testimony is, you know, the multi-ethnic, the beauty of the multi-ethnic church, the gospel is for all peoples. And in 2013, 2014, even 2015, those things were well received.
People would applaud them.And in 2016, it started to shift.I didn't see it coming.
I remember thinking that there were people in the congregation, which by and large is majority conservative, but kind of like I assumed a John McCain, Barry Goldwater form of conservatism.
Cain had represented me for my entire life before he passed away.There's a statue of Barry Goldwater down the street from our church.
I thought I understood our congregation, that by and large conservative, I tend conservative, but not dehumanizing, combative, toxic, tribalism, rage-inducing, fear-mongering, like not that stuff.What I
realize 2017, 2018, 2019 is that many of the people that I was pastoring
were imbibing the means and methods of this movement, people would come up to me in the lobby and put their finger in my sternum and, you know, we'd talk about caring for immigrants, which we had done before.
And they would say, don't you bring that Marxist crap into the house of God.And I'm like, Jim, what are you talking about?And again, these are people I'd shared community with for years.
And what was most disheartening for me is that I was being accused of bringing in ungodly, demonic, atheistic, Marxist ideology into the church.I was selling out.These were all accusations made by people who I had communed with for years.
They'd been into my home.I had been in their home.I baptized their kids, visited them at the hospital.And In 2020, it really came to a head, the three Fs of 2020, Fauci, Floyd, and the federal election.
how our church responded to those things, I thought at the time was, for us, status quo.We were doing what we had been doing.In many ways, I was trying to follow precedent.
And our leadership team, our board, our lead team, our ministerial team, we were in lockstep during that season.We were praying and making these decisions.But within the congregation, there was a perception
that by not gathering in person, we were capitulating to an Antichrist spirit in the government.I'm not a huge fan of Antichrist, and that was striking to me.
I was told that I had a Luciferian spirit of fear because we were following government recommendations in a global pandemic.Andrew, I
You know, I tried to pay attention in seminary, but I think I must have been sick the day that they trained pastors to navigate global pandemics.Right.You and I both.Yeah.
We're, you know, we're all just scrambling and we're doing what we had been doing.We would defer to experts in the field, in our church, and in this case, government, you know, city, county, state, federal.And we're trying to do the best we could.
Fauci was murdered, or excuse me, Floyd was murdered.And we responded the way that we had before.And I remember doing the sermon the next Sunday.
And it was the same sermon that I had done five times before for the last few years on racial reconciliation, et cetera, et cetera.And I was accused of imbibing CRT, which I did not know what that was.
And then the federal election, I didn't endorse people's favorite candidate.And so I was accused of giving way to a liberal agenda. And again, it was so disheartening.
So about 80% of the people who were in the congregation in 2016 were gone by the end of 2020.Wow. Personally, it was the worst year of my life so far.In June, I got COVID.In July, I got shingles.And in August, I got facial paralysis.
So the whole right side of my face was paralyzed.And the doctor, I went to the emergency room, and the doctor's like, have you been under any stress lately? I was just shot, man.
And the doctor was like, yeah, 50% of people get 50% of the nerves back in their face.So thanks be to God, I got about 90% of it back, but I still have about 10% paralysis in my face.
It's interesting, when I get really anxious or fatigued, it starts tingling in some of the spots.And so in 2020, I was ready to quit.Went to the board, I'm like, I'm toast.I don't want to do this no more. They were so great.
They were like, listen, you know, we're going to answer all the emails from now on.We're going to answer all the text messages.I mean, Andrew, people were dropping off packets at my doorstep.
They would print stuff out, articles from Tucker Carlson or Glenn Beck or Ben Shapiro.And, you know, they'd be circling and making commentary.They'd leave it on the doorstep, knock and run away.
Which of course with the ring doorbells, it's like, that's not really something you can get away with anymore. So it was in that difficult season that as a church, as a leadership team, we basically said, we need to stay the course.
In fact, we need to turn the volume up higher.We believe that as a theologically evangelical congregation, we're not going to engage in culture war issues as combatants.We're going to live as ambassadors of the kingdom of God.And just that move,
started drawing people in that were basically exhausted from their, you know, the culture warring, the combativeness, the toxic tribalism.
But one of the things that happened in 2021 was people were coming up to me in the lobby and handing me flyers and saying, Hey, there's a revival happening down the street.
And just down the street from me is a megachurch that started hosting an organization called Turning Point USA.And they were hosting monthly events.
And the flyer, I thought, oh, that's interesting that they said revival, because this looks like a political rally.You know, red, white, and blue, American flag.I think there was an eagle on it.
Uh, and one of my elders and I went to a gathering and was just absolutely terrified by what we saw.It really was a revival, uh, reviving some kind of spirit.And they did three worship songs.
They did an altar called, well, the, um, the thing like every head bowed, every eye closed, slip up that hand to receive salvation, that thing.
They took an offering, and then Charlie Kirk, the leader of Turning Point USA, proceeded to get up and mimic a sermon, and use scripture to, in his mind, prove his preferred political convictions. And it was doing such damage to the text.
I mean, it was sermonic malpractice to a T. But it didn't matter.The people in the room, some of whom I passed through at the time, were raising their hands saying, Amen and Hallelujah.
And the dehumanizing rhetoric, the fear-mongering, the anxiety, it was so palpable. that in that era, in that season, I set out to, I said, man, what are we going to do about this?We've got to do something.And that's where the work began.
Wow.I'm so thankful that you had a board and leaders that cared for you, because that feels rare.The stories I seem to hear are pastors shunned, you know?
And so what a gift in that respect that allowed you to regain some sense and allow you to engage in this, not as a stiff arm or not as combative, but you really challenged Christians in your book to love, and so how did that shift happen for you?
Because that's not a normal... No, I mean, I was so angry at what I perceived to be an injustice.I wanted to make it right.I mean, these are my people.I did not want people to hate my guts.I didn't want to propagate a demonic agenda.
That's not what I set out to do.Moreover, I was just so wounded at what I believed were people who had been imbibing a spirit of anxiety and rage from the purveyors of American Christian nationalism.So I hate American Christian nationalism.
It's destructive.I see the carnage that it has begotten in the people that I love, in the people that I pastor.I mean, there's very few people in our congregation that do not have broken relationships, that one of the central
the components is American Christian nationalism or some aspect of it.And it's ripping families apart, it's ripping marriages apart.So I set out in like 2021, I'm like, I hate this thing.
I am going to destroy with all of my Bible knowledge, I'm going to destroy this heresy, right?And I thought if I could just out Bible these people, they will see the way of truth more clearly and repent and believe in the good news.
And I had a meeting.So I started doing undercover work.I signed up for all the newsletters.I went to dozens of the events.I went to coaching meetings.I became one of their coaches.Oh, wow.Yeah.
Started doing as much as I could because I wanted to see on the inside what was going on. Moreover, I wanted to be with the people.I wanted to know how this thing was hitting them.Why are they so attracted to it?
In 2022, I went to the first Turning Point USA faith pastors conference with over 500 pastors in San Diego because I wanted to know.I wanted to see what is the attraction and what's happening to people who are giving themselves over to this movement.
But I was doing so as a super spy.Primarily, you know, I wanted to do, you know, recon and get intel.
And I had a meeting with a leader from a turning point who wanted to meet with me, local regional, you know, church, church relations director or something.And I was like, Oh, this is my opportunity.
You know, I'm going to argue with this person and just see how, you know, weak the arguments are. And I thought I was going to meet with this like embittered, you know, embattled, you know, nasty person.
No, in walks this effervescent, lovely, joyous, you know, 20 something, brought me a Dutch Bros coffee.And between the two of us, she was the most joyful of the two.And I was like, Oh, this is going to be easy.
Like, I got all the Bible, you know, bullets.And we have this meeting that turned into a two hour meeting.And some of the stuff that was coming out of her mouth, I just couldn't believe it.
You know, Pastor Caleb, we, you and I, we've got to stand for what the Scriptures teach about our God-given right to bear arms. And I'm like, what does the Bible say about the right to bear firearms?Well, you know, Pastor Caleb.
And I'm like, I don't think the Bible mentions firearms.Now, I think that whatever a person thinks about the Second Amendment, the right to bear arms, I think there's biblical principles that can shape your view on the thing.
But she was operating under the impression that the Bible explicitly promoted the right to bear arms and that our right to bear arms was God given.
And this kind of rhetoric would be applied to all sorts of stuff, school choice, fiscal policy, free market economics.And I'm like, none of that.Internally, I'm like, that stuff is not in the Bible.But she thinks it is.
And as I'm talking to her, at one point in the meeting, I said, how did... No, actually, she said to me, Pastor Kalo, politics is really important, but at the end of the day, I just want to follow Jesus.
And of course, I'm just like, okay, my heart's feeling tension in my soul.And I said, well, how did you meet Jesus?And she said, last year at a turning point rally.
And right there, I had a metanoia moment, a repentance moment, a complete mind and life altering realization.And since the spirit say to me, Caleb, you're an idiot.
These people do not need an enemy to fight them, they need a missionary to reach them.She had been discipled into, in good faith and all earnestness, believe the things that she was propagating.She thought it was the real McCoy.
She wanted Jesus, and she was being sold a syncretized, empire-worshiping, tribalistic Jesus, And the way to approach a person who, in her state, is not combativeness, but compassion.
And for me, that was the big pivot that shifted my mind and heart to, okay, what if I approached my Christian nationalist neighbor as a missionary, would approach their neighbors?
And that's where the project really took a shift from viewing it as a heresy to fight to a mission field to reach.
No, and that's where it's so hard, because in your book you point out facts and figures and coherent arguments aren't going to win these people over, because it's not necessarily logic that is attracting these people to, but a deep-seated anxiety or fear.
That's right. You know?And so, can you say a little more about that?Because then that's where it's harder, because we're not dealing in, you know, arguments.
We're dealing in something more deeper in the heart and soul, which is what Jesus calls us to, but we think Christian nationalism, like you said before, could easily be destroyed by just good Bible arguments.
Jonathan Haidt's book, The Righteous Mind, is helpful in this.He helps to articulate that humans deceive themselves into thinking that we're logicking ourselves into beliefs.
But in reality, we are feeling ourself into beliefs, and then post hoc, after the fact, adding logic to it.And notice that, take American Christian nationalism. It's not a matter of the head, it's a matter of the heart.
People who are giving themselves over to American Christian nationalism, as well as many other movements and ideologies, are first feeling the deep need for safety, belonging, and purpose.
And when those things feel under threat, people will reach for something that makes them feel powerful. in order to provide safety that gives them a sense of community belonging and gives them a vision for the future purpose.
What American, what purveyors of American Christian nationalism do is they stir up anxiety about loss.So I feel afraid, right?I feel anxious.And then they promise to quell the anxiety if I would just give them my allegiance.
And so that is, that is operating primarily in the heart.
My invitation to people is when someone that you know says something that to your ears sounds absolutely irresponsible or crazy, recognize that that makes sense to that person because of something going on in the heart.
When Aunt Betty is yelling about lizard people running the government at the 12-year-old's birthday party, First, let's recognize that, yes, I don't think that that's true.
She does, primarily not because she logiced herself there, but because she feels like it is true and it helps to make sense of some of the corruption that she perceives in the world.And that is a matter of the heart.She doesn't feel safe.
And again, just notice in the rhetoric of purveyors of American Christian nationalism, how much of it is fear-mongering, desire to produce anxiety, and then also how much of it is strong-manning, I will protect you, we will stand together, which is an attempt to quell the anxiety that they stirred up.
By the way, pastors do this too.God created you, you sinned, now God hates you, he's gonna send you to hell unless you say this prayer and then donate to the church.
It's like, oh man, I feel anxiety and I will now donate because I wanna quell the anxiety. So it's a matter of the heart and moving conversations from head to heart is what I advocate in the book.
That we all, many of us have friends, family, loved ones who are saying these things.And instead of engaging head to head, the invitation is engage heart to heart.And that's where frankly, hospitality comes in.
Because the heart is not open to change if it feels unsafe.And hospitality can provide a safe environment to have heart-to-heart conversations.
Yeah, because that's, you know, one of my favorite ideas of hospitality comes from Henry Nouwen in his book Reaching Out, of like, that hospitality creates a space for others to be safe and to be seen and to be who they are, you know.And so what
As we think then about hospitality and the table, what you're calling us to isn't easy and safe, and you even point this out in your book, that there needs to be work done within us before we even engage.
How can I, how can the listeners prepare themselves, or what's the groundwork that needs to be done for us?
Galatians 6, 1 and 2 has been an anchor for me.It goes like this.If anyone is caught up or ensnared in evil or transgression, you who are spiritually mature, seek to restore that person gently.So there's my, right?They're caught up in an evil.
What's my hope?Gentle restoration.Seek to restore that person gently and watch out for your own self. Lest you too be tempted."
And that speaks to the reality that when I approach people who are overcome in transgression, they're caught up in an evil, that is going to cause all sorts of things to happen in my heart.
And so I've got to watch out for my own self, that I don't meet their rage with rage, that I don't meet their anxiety with anxiety. If I do those things, I'll only be contributing to the problem.
So watch out for your own self, Galatians 6, 1 and 2 says.And therefore, bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ, the law of Christ being love God, love neighbor.That idea of bearing a burden.
When I invite someone with whom I fundamentally disagree,
When I invite someone who has ideas that I think are really dangerous and abhorrent, when I invite them to my table, or when they invite me to their table, I am invited to carry the burden of the distance between them and me.And that is a burden.
When they say the thing that makes me feel the feelings, I gotta watch out for my own self. Because I want to meet rage with rage.I want to meet, you know, anxiety with anxiety.So the work, 98% of this work, Andrew, is not in them.It's in me.
And so before I even go to the table with them, I want to be well rested. I want to ask the Lord, as the Psalter says, to search me and know me and see if there is any errant way in me and lead me back to the path of righteousness.
I want to ask the Lord, Lord, am I harboring anxiety or bitterness or derision towards this person?If I am, would you work on that with me?Like a good missionary, I want to invite people to pray for me and for this meeting.
Every good missionary has a prayer team. I want to recognize that it is highly likely that I will feel deeply in this meeting.And so I want to expect it.
I want to develop the practice that even in the moment of feeling the thing, taking that to the Lord, you know, as they're talking and saying the thing about whatever it is, lizard people running the government,
the derision, the shame, the guilt, the anxiety that I feel in the meeting, I want to say, Lord, I think I'm feeling guilt or shame or derision or whatever.Would you bear that with me?Would you bring a peace to my heart?Would you call me now?
I want to be Jesus as you would be with this person right now.And 98% of the work is in my own heart. Here's the other thing, Andrew.Here's a good test.I hate this, by the way.
I'm glad to hear that because there are moments where you're like, I don't want to be spiritually mature.They're not being spiritually mature.Can't I be a baby like them and meet them at their level?
Yes, I don't want to do any of this.Yes.Here's a good test to discern if I'm in a healthy place. is to pray this prayer honestly.Lord, what do you want to change in me through them?
And what that does is it reframes the conversation and the expectation.I am not the great valiant warrior coming in with my truth sword, ready to slay all of their heretical ideas.I am, as my grandma used to say,
one beggar telling another beggar where to find bread.I am also in need of correction.I also am tempted, like Peter in the Garden of Gethsemane, to pick up the sword of worldly power.
Now, their version of that temptation is American Christian nationalism.I have my own sword that I'm tempted to pick up, and I am also in need of correction.I am daily in need of being reminded of the promises of Jesus.
And so when I approach that person, I want to also recognize that Jesus might want to change something in me through them, that I might grow in grace or longsuffering or compassion, and I might even have something, an errant belief that's operating in my brain, that God's going to use them to change me.
And when I can approach someone in that space of humility and hospitality, I'm presenting myself as a healthy conversation partner.And I'm not just a doormat.I'm not just letting them say things, and this is critical.I am doing something.
I'm inviting them to meet me in the space of heart-to-heart communication.I might be asking them, hey, Aunt Betty, when you hear about the lizard people running the government, That sounds really scary to me.
I'm not sure I'm not getting that information, but that sounds terrifying.How do you feel?And just that question, how do you feel, is an invitation to meet me at Heart to Heart.
And I might say something to Aunt Betty like, I also want our government to be righteous and just.I want a safe future for little Jimmy and Sally.I want, you know, people, I don't want lizard people running the government.
I can connect to the shared value without agreeing to the thing that came out of her mouth.And again, that's connecting heart to heart.I can honor her for caring so much.
Aunt Betty, I love that you care about our country so much that you would be willing to invest this time And then here's the pivot.
If we're leading with humility and hospitality, and she's, or he, whoever the conversation partner is, they're connecting with, we're communing in that heart-to-heart space, then I can engage in humble subversion.And it could go something like this.
Aunt Betty, I also want the government to protect us, you know, safety for the future, whatever the shared values are. I've been reading in my Bible—remember that Bible you gave me when I turned 18, Aunt Betty?
I've been reading it, and I'm seeing a lot of things in the Scripture that go like this.Fear not.
Though the kingdoms of this world might be shaken, though evil overlords might be doing their evil overlording, that Jesus is always with us, and that he calls us—and Aunt Betty, this is frustrating to me,
that the Scripture calls us to pray for the emperor, to honor the king, to, insofar as it relates to us, be at peace with all people, to trust that the Lord has our government in His hands. And I feel a tension in my heart.
How do I advocate for a healthy leadership in our government?How do I help protect our children and their future and honor those teachings of Jesus?I feel a tension in my own heart.What do you think?
And what I've done is I've tried to meet her at the space of heart-to-heart connection and then introduce, and I'm not asking people to lie, Andrew, that is a real tension for me.I don't think lizard people are running the government.
I think there's evil people who will do evil to protect and propagate their way of being in the world. there's Caesars, there's Nebuchadnezzars, there's pharaohs.
And I'm frustrated that Jesus tells us to put down our sword, because I am an American male.I grew up on Braveheart, and the Patriots, and vengeance is mine.Topple the government, that's in my blood.
And so I feel a tension in my own heart, Aunt Betty, help me.And the reason that that's humble subversion is, I've introduced or reintroduced Jesus to the conversation.
And all I'm asking Aunt Betty to do, or whoever my conversation partner is, is to re-examine their currently held commitments.And if they jive or not, right?There's two commitments in contradiction.
One, a commitment to Jesus and the way of Jesus, and the other, a commitment to, you know, protecting the government.You know, lizard people thing.And I just want to introduce Jesus back there.
And here's the thing, Andrew, I can't create peace in Aunt Betty's heart. Jesus came.And I want her to re-examine if she's clinging to Jesus.
The trick with American Christian Nationalists is they use a lot of God talk to justify their combative, toxic tribalism, their fear-mongering. I want to practice the way of Jesus with her so that she sees Jesus in me.
Calm, humble, hospitable, compassionate.I'm not yelling at her, I'm not casting derision on her.
And then what I hope to do is plant seeds of repentance in the garden of her mind, that the Spirit of the living God may one day grow into the fruit of repentance.
And when that day comes, three years, three decades, maybe three days from now, she's standing at her kitchen sink, looking out the window, having a cup of coffee with news or tainment media blasting on the TV, doing some kind of hate speech about immigrants or lizard people, whatever the thing is, and suddenly it hits her.
I wonder if God wants to change something in me about what I'm currently imbibing or what I'm currently believing. And here's the question, Andrew.She asks, who can I talk to about this?
Because I can't go to my Christian nationalist club because if I ask the wrong questions, they will kick me out and I will no longer feel safety belonging and purpose.And that is absolutely terrifying.
But you know, my nephew, Caleb, he was kind to me.He didn't agree with me, but he seemed to want to connect with me and was interested in what I had to say.I think I'll give him a call so I can ask him some questions.
If we could just get to that point in 100,000 kitchen table conversations every year for the next decade, we could see systemic change within our country and within our churches.
Wow, you just challenged all of us in such deep ways that there's so much.One, I loved that prayer, and it's such a spiritually mature prayer of like, Lord, where do I need correction as I engage this?
So I hope our listeners pick that up, just because I think, like you said, 98% of the work is done in me.And that's the hard work, because again, if anybody's like me, I don't want to be spiritually mature.
I want to meet them where they're at, you know, meet them on their level.But then just the curiosity that you invite us to of like,
you know, we're not responding with facts and figures, you know, we're not—the signs I saw at the Republican National Convention, you know, I'm not responding in anger of like, don't you see that begin mass deportations is totally against Scripture, and let me quote you all the Bible verses, like, even though I want to, like, it sat so unwell with me, but like, to ask the questions of like, what
what are you feeling, and to find the shared common value.We're not enemies.As far as we're concerned, we're brothers and sisters in Christ, and they are people to be loved.
And I do wanna notice, Andrew, and for those listening, you take like those signs, begin mass deportations now, that disgusts me.I hate that idea.I know the carnage that that does.
I've got people in my congregation, when they saw that, they called me and said, I'm terrified for my mom, for my son, for my cousin.Like that rhetoric, is at the expense of some of the most vulnerable people in my church.
This, for me, is not a national issue as much as it is a very personal issue for people that I care for.I hate that idea.
What I want to notice, though, is the only way I can see forward to seeing that not happen anymore is by inviting the person who holds the sign for whom, in earnestness, they think it's a good thing.
And so the actual change only comes when the heart is safe.And it's my invitation It's not doing nothing, it's doing the only thing that works.
Because again, Andrew, you're so wise to notice, you can throw all the facts, figures, and Bible at them, and they'll shield wall, because this feels right.The problem is not in the head, but in the heart.And the social media warriors,
Like that posture that if I just post an article or blast, fire off an email or a text message, that will not get changed because the shield wall is up.You're not in my heart yet.We're not communing heart to heart.
You are an enemy when you send me those facts and figures.And I think if for an example of this actually working, you could look at the civil rights movement in the 1950s and 60s in America. though many of the criticisms were this ain't working.
We need to do violence or we need to segregate whatever the solution is.We need a fast and easy move, uh, you know, decision.Yep.And King and others were so wise to notice like, no, we can get to the heart.It's just going to take a lot of time.
And I think this is, you know, very different issues, but similar attack.
And so as you reflect on these past four years, eight years, you know, leading a church, like what is, you know, cause you can stand and give a great sermon against it, but like, how are you cultivating and discipling your people and loving your people in ways different than you would have back in 2015?
Thinking about the church that I lead, there's multiple prongs, so to speak.One, one of the most frequent questions I get in the congregation to this day is, what do I do with Aunt Betty?
So the book that I wrote, Disarming Leviathan, actually came from a pastoral issue I was facing, which is many of the people in my congregation don't know what to do when their loved one is screaming at the kid's birthday party.
I mean, I had people, they're like, what do I do with my son?He just bought body armor for the two-year-old for the impending war.And what do I do with my sister?She's gone off the deep end about stop the steal stuff, whatever the thing is.
And that's where the back third of my book is a field guide that came out of actual things people in my congregation were experiencing with their family and friends.
So some of it is doing workshops on how do you talk to people who've imbibed toxic polarization, which is not only American Christian nationalism.There are many other forms.
I'm just most familiar with American Christian nationalism because where I live.Second, there is more intentionality around getting people around tables who disagree with each other.
So our discipleship model from the last four years, I don't think that the problem that our church faced in 2020 was actually about politics or culture warring.I don't think that was the problem.
I think the problem was, is we did not have the muscle to be able to carry the distance between me and someone with whom I disagree yet share communion with. there was, it was the polarization.And so the issues really are secondary.
Those are just the flashpoints of the inability to carry the distance between you and me. And so our discipleship model is really more spiritual formation.
To be in communion with someone who votes differently, who approaches culture war issues differently, who approaches scripture differently, to bear the burden of the distance between you and me is a mark of spiritual maturity.
And so we try to put people around tables.We frame conversations around every spicy issue. First around, we're going to get at tables and we're going to commit to practicing the fruit of the Spirit and 1 Corinthians 13 love.
And then we're going to talk about the spicy issue.We're going to talk about abortion and gender expression and sexuality and whatever you want to talk about.And we're not going to tell you what to think.We're going to go to the Bible together.
We're going to seek the Spirit together. Our commitment is not uniformity of conviction, but uniformity of posture towards each other, namely love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.
And if we can do that as a church family, we will be putting on display, Ephesians 3 and 4 says, the manifold or multifaceted wisdom of God that binds misfits together.
And we will show our community, this is how you can have a healthy conversation about a really important issue that you fundamentally disagree with your neighbor about.We can do it because of Jesus.
So that's the second bit, is putting misfits at tables, and the commitment is practicing the fruit of the Spirit with each other.And then third, more, more, more, more, more preaching on the kingdom.As a non-denominational evangelical Bible church,
In my tradition, there's generally speaking, and this isn't, I'm not trying to make an indictment, but generally speaking, comparatively, there's deficiency in imagination of how we can live on earth as it is in heaven.
How we can practice the values of kingdom come now.And giving people a framework for that is helpful to notice.We are not stuck with the identity of red team or blue team.We are ambassadors of a kingdom.
So whether three or more of us are gathered, Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, when three of us are gathered, we can practice the kingdom on earth as it is in heaven.
Because in the eternal state, we may still share different convictions on political issues.I don't quite know.But we will be in union with one another because of the power of Christ.So we could do that now.
And I think those three prongs are some of the key ways that we're engaging our community and our congregation as we move forward into not only this election cycle.I don't think this will be the last time we have toxic tribalism and polarization.
I don't know what the issues will be in 10 years, but I know that if we can shepherd people to develop the muscle to carry the distance between you and me, we can engage that in a healthier way.
And like you said, it's not uniformity of conviction, but the uniformity of posture, of how do we bear each other's burdens and have conversations, robust conversations that are hard, but that are rooted in the fruit of the Spirit and in love is patient and love is kind.
And that feels right.It just feels so hard.
Oh yeah.Well, this is why no one wants to do it.It's why I think Paul, in his letters, was most aggressive at anyone who would create disunity or stratification in the Church.
because it's the natural temptation of the human heart to segregate, to create homogenous units, to be with people who think and act just like me, because it feels safe, but it lacks beauty.
It does.Richard Beck, I don't know if you're familiar with his work.He's a Christian psychologist at Abilene, but has written a lot about hospitality and recognizing Jesus.
But he pointed out that you could make the case that Paul's overarching theme in all of his letters is hospitality, of how do we keep the church together at the same table.
And we live in a moment where hospitality is defined by Instagram as charcuterie boards with candles on a wood table outside. Yeah, absolutely.That's not hospitality.Hospitality is welcoming the outsider.
It's love of the outsider, which sounds dangerous because it is.
Yeah, right.It's all subversive.The kingdom is subversive, and it's dangerous, but it's also good, and there is a safety in the presence of Jesus.Maybe not physical, but there is a spiritual existential, I think, safety we can ground ourselves in.
Yeah.At the end of the day, I think it comes back to, do you think Easter is legit or not?Will there be a resurrection from the dead or not?If this life is all that we have, cling to worldly power.Pick up the sword.It makes total sense.
If the resurrection is as Jesus promised for all, that he is the resurrection and the life, then I can lay down the things of this world and I can be willing to lose them.
Even things that I love and that are precious to me, I can be willing to lay down because as Jesus said, everything you give up for the kingdom, for his sake, he gives back to his tenfold.So do I believe that or not?
And I think a lot of people will give mental assent to that and will proclaim it with their lips, but their lived theology says, I just believe in Good Friday.
What do you mean?Because it seems we've always skipped over Good Friday, it feels like, as evangelicals.And we want to proclaim a resurrection.Yeah.
I think that in the lived theology of those who want to pick up the sword of worldly power, do not in their guts believe that Jesus can fulfill his promises towards us.So I've got to take it for myself.This is the problem in the Garden of Eden.
The human decided, I'm going to reach out and take for myself.This is David and Bathsheba, I'm going to reach out and take for myself.This is Peter in the Garden of Gethsemane, reaching out and taking the way of the sword.
We think we know what is right in our own eyes.And when we cling to worldly power in order to protect and propagate the things that are precious to us, we in our lived theology deny the resurrection.
For sure. Wow.This has been a rich conversation.Really appreciate your challenge, your invitation, your heart.As we wrap up, there's a question I ask all of my guests, and you've touched on themes, but I'll just ask it.
What is the story you want the Church to tell?
that Christ is risen indeed, and that you can see the proof and the fruit of it at this table that we're sitting at.That in my community, there is a communion of saints that includes all ethnos, all social class,
all political commitments, all manner of difference between us, and in that communion of saints in the local table, that our community might hear the story that Christ is risen indeed.
Um, yeah.Thanks for having me.
Yeah.And then some, you know, as we wrap up to some fun questions, I'd love to ask about food.Okay.Yeah.Great.You know, um, sort of changed.
It's usually a hard one 80 at this point because I feel hard shift, hard shift, but, uh, Andrew, I love a good segue.Yeah.There's never a good way to shift this one, but yeah.So what's one food you refuse to eat?
Ooh, there are many.Um, I'm currently thinking about tripe.
Yeah, I don't want to eat that.But menudo, come on.
Haggis is also on the list.Yeah.I've had UK food on the brain lately.I'm sure, yes.Yeah.Okay.Oh, sushi.I guess one in America that's really popular is sushi.Everybody likes this raw fish stuff.And I just can't do it.
Fair enough. No worries.So then on the other side of the spectrum, what's one of the best things you've ever eaten?
In 2021, our church sent me on sabbatical, and they were very generous.And my wife and I had the opportunity to go to a place called Bayeux in France, in Normandy. And there's a restaurant there that's built into an ancient wine cellar.Oh gosh.
And because it was like just coming out of COVID, like just a month or two before they had just opened up the restaurants.
We got in.Wow.And it's like that Michelin five star thing.Like it was on the list and it's just, they use a small town and the meal that they served, It was a cut of beef.I didn't understand.I don't speak French.
I didn't understand what it was, but it was like a melt in your mouth. And my wife and I still talk about it to this day.How do we get back to that?How do we get back there?
Yeah.I'm sure given everything that happened leading up to that sabbatical, that meal was extra joyous.
Yeah.And it was crazy too, because it was like, there's only a few tables in the joint.It wasn't packed.It was very laid back, lovely.Loved it.Yeah.Loved it.
Awesome.And then finally, there's a conversation among chefs about last meals.As in, if you knew you had one last meal to enjoy, which is morbid, but also insightful, like what would it be?
And so, Caleb, if you think about your last meal, do you know what might be on your table?
Yeah, it would be the meal I had there.Easy.Yeah, for sure.Yeah, I would do that.Bottle of wine, steak, asparagus that's grilled.What else was there?And with my wife, hopefully.
Awesome.Well, I really appreciate it.Listeners, I hope you've enjoyed this conversation.There's a lot to unpack here, and I think there's some great resources that Caleb is providing the church in this season.
And so, Caleb, if people want to learn more, besides buying the book Disarming the Leviathan, which everybody should do, where else can they find some of these resources to engage in these conversations?
Our website is disarmingleviathan.com.We have a weekly podcast, we post articles, other recommended resources like books and videos and things like that.So disarmingleviathan.com.There's also links there to all of our socials.
Awesome.So yeah, do check it out.Again, if you're wanting to know how to engage in this season while as a Christ follower, Caleb and the resources he's putting out, I just highly recommend.
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Thanks for joining us on this episode of The Biggest Table, where we explore what it means to be transformed by God's love around the table and through food.Until next time, bye.
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