When you think about businesses that are selling through the roof, sure, you think about a great product, a cool brand, and brilliant marketing.But an often overlooked secret is actually the businesses behind the business, making selling simple.
For millions of businesses, that business is Shopify. Nobody does selling better than Shopify.
They're the home of the number one checkout on the planet and the not-so-secret ShopPay that boosts conversions up to 50%, meaning way less carts going abandoned and way more sales happening.
So if you're into growing your business, your commerce platform better be ready to sell wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling.On the web, in your store, in their feed, and everywhere in between.Businesses that sell more sell on Shopify.
Upgrade your business and get the same checkout all birds and skims use. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com slash startselling, all lowercase.Go to shopify.com slash startselling to upgrade your selling today.
shopify.com slash startselling.
Is your cold making it hard for you to get to sleep and leading to a bad morning?Switch to Mucinex Night Shift for fast, powerful nighttime multi-symptom cold and flu relief.
Mucinex Night Shift fights your worst nighttime symptoms to help you get to sleep and wake up ready to go.Mucinex Night Shift.It's comeback season.News is directed.
Hey there, How To Be Fine listeners.Before we start today's episode, we got to remind you, we have relaunched Buy the Book exclusively on Patreon.
That's right.If you miss hearing us live by the rules of self-help books, however ridiculous those rules are, go to patreon.com slash listen to buy the book for new monthly episodes.
Oh, and wait, there's more.Because if you join us at the club level, you'll be able to live stream a book club with Kristen and I. And we're going to talk about whatever book we most recently lived by.It's going to be a blast.
So check it out at patreon.com slash listen to buy the book.
That's patreon.com slash listen to buy the book.Hey, Kristen.Yeah, Jolynda.
I think we should talk about something that lots of people say we should avoid.And what is that? Politics.
Yes, politics.The subject that supposedly we should never bring up at a dinner party or frankly anywhere else.
Right.But what happens when the subject is unavoidable, like now during a big election year?
That is a very good question.It is hard to avoid right now, and it's also hard to avoid getting heated with certain folks.
Yes.Like, honestly, I'm not sure if I can avoid it.I get very passionate and even, you know, somewhat say aggressive about my views.
I wouldn't say aggressive, but passionate.And I don't think you're alone in that, Jolenta.
Well, fortunately, we have an expert with us today to talk about the ins and outs of maintaining friendships across the aisle.Well, I can hardly wait to hear from her. Well, let's get to it because I'm Jalinta Greenberg.And I'm Kristen Meinzer.
And this is how to be fine with friends.
On each episode of How to Be Fine with Friends, we dive into a different aspect of friendship or loneliness.
That's right.In some episodes, we talk with an expert and we learn about how specific issues affect our friendships and well-being.
And in alternate episodes, we'll take that advice from our experts out into the world, record ourselves enlisting that advice, and report back to you with the results.
And today we are talking all about bridging the political divide with friends.A lot of you have written to say that your friendships have suffered in recent years due to political differences and you want some guidance.And like, so do I, frankly.
Yes, and during this wild election season here in the U.S., we could not think of a better person to share her wisdom than Celeste Headley, a journalist who's made her living helping people have tough conversations.
As an NPR journalist, as the host of Slate's Hear Me Out podcast, and as the author of several books, including We Need to Talk,
how to have conversations that matter, and, speaking of race, why we need to talk about race and how to do it effectively.Celeste, thank you so much for joining us today.
Such a joy to be with you both.We're so happy to have you here.
First and foremost, if it isn't already clear from your bio, you are a big believer in the importance of listening to people with different opinions and being open to having your mind changed.Does that also include political opinions?
Yeah, of course.You say, of course, but not everybody says, of course.
I'm like, really?I don't know.
Yeah, let me dig into this.Let me first explain how bad it is.
There have been a number of surveys recently that say Americans are more likely to make assumptions and lean into stereotypes about people based on their politics and who they voted for than they are based on their race, which means we're more partisan than we are racist, and we're pretty racist.
So I get why people think that politics is kind of like the third rail that you don't want to touch.I get it.But our avoidance of talking about these things as though we're speaking to another human being is what is driving all of this hatred.
That's what's causing it.When you separate people, when you see somebody with a MAGA hat, for example, and you suddenly think you know everything about them. You know who they are.You're not humanizing them anymore.They're not a human to you.
They are a two-dimensional, at best, caricature. And that's what's making politics so toxic.So there's this in terms of having these conversations because it makes the world better.
It's having these conversations because it makes the other person better.You do not change anybody's mind by othering them.Those who have come from marginalized communities know what it means to be othered.And we understand how damaging that is.
While I understand that people choose their politics, and you might say, look, they brought it on themselves, the damage is the same, right?If you're asking someone here, we want you to leave your tribe, right?
You have to give them a safe place to land. You can't say, we want you to leave everything that makes up your identity right now.And by the way, there's no place for you to go.
We're gonna call you an a-hole and hate you anyway, and never allow for redemption.So you might as well not leave the group that you're in.
But, you know, long before we even get to that conversation of trying to seduce people away to the other side, let's just talk about the facts of the matter here.
Celeste, you already gave us, you know, a bit of intel on one study, but another very notable study that's important to our listeners since our whole season is about friendship here is a study from the Pew Research Center.
And they found that political polarization is more intense now than at any point in modern history, to the extent that Nearly 80% of Americans now have just a few or zero friends at all across the aisle.So let's talk about how we got here.
How did we get to this point?
Yeah, and just one more data point.People are more likely to be angry if someone in their family members someone of the opposing political party than if they marry somebody of a different race or religion.Like it's bad.
So the way that we got here frankly is not, I'm not going to put this on Americans.Number one, it's mostly the political parties. if you evaluate politics just according to policy, like take all of these identity politics tooks out of it.
And if I just asked people, where do you stand on abortion?You would find that the vast majority of Americans agree on a lot of supposedly divisive topics.The majority of Americans believes the Supreme Court is in need of reform.
The majority of Americans think the minimum wage needs to be raised.The majority of Americans believe that immigration makes the country better, right?
So because they couldn't win on policy, political pundits and strategists started turning this into tribal politics because it's really easy to activate, you know, the visceral part of our lizard brains that's, you know, 300,000 years old and change by turning it into us versus them.
And in order to do that, they had to say, this is about gay people ruining America.This is about migrants ruining America.This is about the age-old black people ruining America or trans people or whatever it is.
So I'm going to put most of this on the political parties themselves because they just want to stay in power and they will do it by any means necessary and they have absolutely played on all of our unconscious biases in order to do that.
However, you can either fall prey to that or not.
Like, I think all three of us here have struggled financially in our careers.And we didn't turn around and say, well, screw everybody else.It was hard for me.And so it shouldn't be easier for other people.
That choice of I'm so angry because it's been so difficult for me.And therefore I want to punish other groups.I'm going to blame it on them and punish them for them.That's a, that's a personal choice.
influenced by where you live and your family and all those things, but it is a choice that you make.
So I get that the politicos in this country have been playing on our keys like a xylophone, but the extent to which you fall prey to it is individual.
And how do you know when you've gone too far or when you're believing harmful rhetoric?
Because there's another recent poll by the Public Religion Research Institute that says 8 in 10 Republicans believe the Democratic Party has been taken over by socialists, and 8 in 10 Democrats believe the Republican Party has been taken over by racists.
It seems like we're running with these. sort of divisive ideas as opposed to trying to bridge the gap.
Yeah.Although, you know, just as an aside, there's nothing particularly wrong with socialism.The United States is based economically on socialism.Yeah.Like, it's not bad.Yeah.
And not only that, but if you're going to say, oh, my God, the Republicans are racist, guess what?So are most Democrats and so are most Americans.
Every single person in this country makes assumptions about other people, usually on an unconscious basis, based on their appearance.That's just the truth. So how do you bridge this gap?
So the first thing to do is remember you do not have to talk about politics, right?Your conversation with the other person can be about all kinds of things.I don't know if it's still around, but there used to be a blog.Remember blogs?
called Shit My Dad Says.It was even briefly a TV show.Yeah, I was like, it may have been a show or movie.I think William Shatner was in it in any case.Oh, yeah, of course.
So there's one point at which the, you know, it's a son talking about what his dad says to him.And at one point, the son says, Oh, my God, there's this guy at work and I can't stand him.
Every single day he'd come home and complain about this guy at work.And the dad says to him, stop talking to him.Like if you go to the park, you don't put your picnic basket down next to the only pile of dog shit.
And I feel the same way about politics.Like if you know somebody disagrees with you on abortion, you don't have to talk about abortion.You don't need to pick at that scab.And I say that because
The point of all this is to go from this push for us to dehumanize everyone politically and lean in to the opposite direction, humanize everyone.So I'll play a game with people, right?You know, I work for NPR.
People, especially of a certain demographic, are always trying to prove they know more about politics than I do.And so they'll come and start talking to me about this.
after a while sometimes i'll be like okay so we're not going to agree on any of that so i'll play you the three questions game i bet in three questions we can find something we agree on and it's always something like dogs are better than people or tacos are awesome right but to make that connection to realize that someone is not their t-shirt
That's what you're aiming for, is to treat people like human beings, flawed, nuanced, changeable, capable of redemption.That's what we're trying to find.
Amy Quinton Well, speaking of redemption here, Celeste, on the one hand, you're saying we don't necessarily have to talk about politics with people.But in some cases, it feels like maybe we should.So I'll give you an example.
Many of our liberal listeners were concerned about conservative friends and family members who resisted masking and vaccines, particularly during the first couple years of the COVID pandemic.And this is not just a political difference.
Yes, the people who were against masking and vaccines said it was, but it was also a public safety concern, which When other people are not being vaccinated or masking, it affects everybody else.
So in those cases, should our liberal listeners have tried to intervene with their conservative friends who were suspicious because of their political leadership?
Their political leadership was making it seem as if masks were suspect and vaccines were suspect.And maybe let's use this horse tranquilizer or whatever it is instead.That's what their political leadership was telling them.
should we try to rescue people and bring them over to our side when that's the case?
So when you are when you are worried about somebody, okay, so I'm going to tell you exactly how a conversation went between me and a relative who was Hesitant to get the vaccine.
Um, I said to them look, you know, it's your body and it's your choice But I'm I'm worried because I care about you and I don't want you to die and I know it can be confusing because you're getting I am too like I also have to sit down and be like wait
This is conflicting information.I thought it was this way.Now they're saying this.And I too have to sit down and like sift through all the information to find the truth.
But when I do that, I make sure that I'm listening to the people who've actually made it their career to study this. And this particular person is a plumber.
And I said, you know, I'm sure you get really ticked off when you go to fix somebody's plumbing and the client comes to you and says, well, I looked it up on YouTube and they said that you should do this and this and this and this.
And you're like, oh, for fuck's sake, you know, I've been in this business for 25 years.I'm like, can you imagine if you worked at the CDC and your whole job
was protecting people's lives and you'd studied it in school and paid hundreds of thousand dollars in student debt.And this is what you do every single day.And now you're an expert.And then somebody is listening to Joe Rogan instead of you.
I mean, imagine how you would feel.And I said, I just, you know, again, this is up to you, but I'm worried and I want you to be healthy. And, you know, I wonder if for us, for the people who love you, you would protect your life for us.
You know, take the chance.And then I let it go.And then I also listen to them.You can't, we really can't, you know, we, when we go into these conversations, we worry a lot about what we're going to say.
But research tells us that the most persuasive thing any of us can do is to listen to somebody else. Listening is not endorsement.Just by listening to them, that's not you saying, oh, you're right about everything, thumbs up.
That's you letting them be heard.And sometimes having somebody explain through their entire thought process is enough.You know, there's all these studies that they've done on confirmation bias.
I'm sure everybody knows what confirmation bias is, but really quickly, it's when you believe something, And then they show you the evidence proving that what you believe is wrong and it makes you believe the wrong thing harder, more.
Human beings are the only ones that show any sign of confirmation bias, right?Because it's not evolutionarily adapted.That's a great way for your species to die out.But they have been studying this for a long time to figure out how to get past it.
And one of the most effective ways is for them to force someone to explain their wrong opinion and all the impacts and how it works.So they would be like, I support merit pay for teacher.Interesting.OK, so exactly how would that work?
How would you do this?How would you make it work?And then what would happen?And then what?And then what would the impacts be?You know, I know that we both care about having really good schools.
So then and then as you walk them through every step, something most people never do when they take strong opinions, That's often the most persuasive technique that you can do is simply by asking them questions and having them walk through it.
Oh, great tactic.And also maybe a great way to maintain a friendship too.
Yeah.I say all the time, someone will say something that's wrong, right?They'll say, let's go back to vaccines.They'll say, well, the vaccine has killed like 50,000 people.I would say, wow, that shocks me because obviously in my job,
I've read a lot about this and I have not read that anywhere.What is your source?I would love to see your source.Can you email me the link?I would love to see that.Where'd you hear that?
And by doing that, and I'm not being a dick about it, I try to bring honest curiosity to it, like, wow, okay, that is shocking if true, right?Where did you hear that?Where did you learn that?
And again, it's kind of the same concept, forcing them to walk through it.But you're having a conversation about it on an equal playing field of respect.Not, oh my God, you're an idiot.Let me explain how wrong you are.
That makes sense.I would definitely be much more willing to engage if someone was like listening and not attacking every point, obviously. So we've talked about ways to talk with friends that have different political affiliations.
Do you think it's necessary that we have friends that have different political affiliations than ourselves?
So the best way, the most effective and efficient way for you to become one of those people who's divorced from reality is to only talk to people who agree with you. How do you think the other side got the way they are?
It's because they're surrounded with people who believe the same things they believe, and they are an echo chamber.The way that human minds work is as a hive mind, meaning we don't do our best thinking alone.
I know a lot of people like to think of themselves as like super genius, isolated genius, right?But that's how you become a Ted Kaczynski. We work best in conversation with other people.
You know, there's so much research now going into intellectual humility and how beneficial it is, not just for your brain, but for your entire life, your friendships, your family relationships, everything connected with quality of life.
Intellectual humility is what is required to maintain a relationship with someone who really agrees with you.Otherwise, you're the dick at every party, right?If you don't have intellectual humility, you're the one always going, well, actually...
So yeah, that's the argument for how good this is for you.That's growth.And one of the things I say all the time is, you know everything that's going to come out of your mouth.You're never going to say something that surprises you.
You already know everything that you could say. If you want to learn, you're going to have to listen to other people.And the only way to really learn is by listening to people who've read different stuff than you.
Yeah.And maybe who have different challenges in life and maybe are doing different day-to-day things.And I mean, I think it happens all the time in our industry, for example.
A lot of us live on the coast, and it's so easy to be in a room full of people who have very respected diplomas and educational records refer to the Midwest as the flyover states or the why bother part of the country.
And I'm like, just a second, you just sounded not smart there when you referred to 90% of the land mass in America is not worth paying attention to.That doesn't sound very smart.So It can happen on all sides.That's just the point I'm making.
You can think of yourself as very liberal and still be closed-minded in certain ways, likewise with conservatives.It's not just the realm of this political party or this political party.We can probably all benefit from being more open-minded.
And I will say, just to go back to, you know, I'm a constantly beating drum when it comes to research, but I will say that decades of research shows that both conservatives and liberals, lowercase c and l, are prone to focusing on information that validates what they already believe.
Equally, equally prone to that.
Alright, we are going to take a quick break.But when we're back, we're going to talk about some listener questions that we have for Celeste Hedley.
This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. It's sometimes hard to remind ourselves that we're trying our best to make sense of everything, but we know all of you out there are, we sure are, and we do that with the help of therapy.
And who better to get therapy from than BetterHelp?It's entirely online, designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited to your schedule.
All you do is fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists at any time for no additional charge.
And yeah, frankly, I'll say it, I have had to switch therapists over the years because sometimes a therapist isn't the best fit.But when the therapist is a good fit, oh my gosh, I've gotten so much out of therapy, Jolenta.
Coping skills on how to set boundaries, which you know is a real issue with me.Oh yeah, boundaries are hard.Oh yeah, they're very hard for me.Also, just unpacking stuff that they can give more of a professional viewpoint on than my friends or family.
Yeah, therapy has totally helped me find a more positive outlook on life and, like, find things to be grateful for.
Yeah.Let the gratitude flow with BetterHelp.Visit BetterHelp.com slash how to be today to get 10% off your first month.
That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash how to be.
My dad works in B2B marketing.He came by my school for career day and said he was a big ROAS man.Then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ad spend.My friends still laugh at me to this day.
Not everyone gets B2B, but with LinkedIn, you'll be able to reach people who do.Get $100 credit on your next ad campaign.Go to linkedin.com slash campaign to claim your credit.That's linkedin.com slash campaign.Terms and conditions apply.
LinkedIn, the place to be, to be.
Hey, everyone.We're back with Celeste Headley talking about friendships across the political divide.And now we have some listener questions we are going to get to here, Celeste.And these listeners would love to have some of your advice.
So let's start with Jen here. Jen wrote to say, I sent her research I had done and explained why I didn't agree as calmly and as fairly as I could.Then she said I was only looking at liberal biased sources, which I was not.
I asked her three times to stop sending me stuff and said I no longer wanted to have these conversations.She blatantly ignored me the first couple of times and then finally stopped after the third.
But now we aren't talking at all and I'm actually dreading trying to have a conversation with her now."Celeste, what advice do you have for Jen here?
So first I will say avoiding that defensive reaction is one of the most important things you can do.And I say that because we know, humans are social creatures, right?Our society is built on our status within a group and in a community.
And what we know neurologically speaking is that when someone says something to us that we perceive as hostile or demeaning, our body and our brains take the exact same actions as though someone punched us in the face, exact.
So the moment that someone becomes defensive, that is a literal term then.They are literally, in their deepest minds, defending their life because your place in a community is how well you survive as a human being.So I'll say that.
Once she became defensive, it kind of was over.And I will also say that sending research to someone is escalation.It's never a de-escalation tool.
So after she became defensive, the fight escalated.So yeah, you guys are gonna need a breather.You're gonna need time, and it's okay to not talk for a little bit and just let,
This go after some time has passed you might think about sending a message going You know that got way for me.Here's my experience of that.I got I got defensive.I got angry I And I regret it.You talk about yourself and your own personal experience.
You don't talk about them.You use I statements and feeling statements.And then you say, look, I value your friendship.And if it means we never talk about this particular issue again, it's worth it to me.
Now, if you can't say that, if it's not worth it to you, then let the friendship go.I know a particular Kristin Meinzer who believes you should break up friendships when it's necessary.It's okay.It's okay if you can't get past this.
But if it is worth it to you, then take your breather and come back when both of you, when you think that both of you are ready to remember what was valuable in the friendship.
Yeah, great advice.Totally.Another listener, Michelle, wrote to say, in the past, it was much easier to remain friends with people on the other side of the political aisle.Sadly, that is no longer the case.
I can absolutely agree to disagree on some political stances, but not when it comes to basic morality and human rights, or the hateful things that people say and post. So Celeste, this listener is pointing out a few things that are worth noting.
First, let's talk about the idea of human rights and hate.When a friend's political position aligns with policies that discriminate against you or people that matter, would you be able to stay friends with that person?Should you?
So yes, you can.And I think it's worth it. I will say that political forces have turned identity into politics going back thousands of years.You can see even going back to the earliest stages of democracy in Greece, how they turned particular
groups of people into political issues.And they do this by making it economic, right, oftentimes.That's why slavery began, which is what fueled racism, was turning this into an economic, it was about labor.
And so this idea that this is new is not true.One of the ways that we preserved civility in politics was because our politics were almost entirely dominated by white men. And so it was much easier to be civil.Everybody else was an agitator.
And so to a certain extent, some of the arguments that we're having right now, some of them are healthy.This is understandable in a country in which what were formerly marginalized communities are now beginning to take some power.
You see this throughout human history.It's always I don't want to say bloody.It's always ugly.People do not give up power willingly, right?
On the other hand, when you're talking about friends who believe something to be immoral, what we have to ask ourselves is, do you believe that people can change? Do you think somebody's change of mind would be worth it?Right?
And I'm trying to think of the people like before the Civil War who justified keeping an entire race of people in chains and brutalized
because they either believed it was religiously okay, economically necessary, or they even had that pseudoscience saying that they were biologically inferior, right?
If you were an abolitionist at that time and one of your friends believed those things, it probably would have been worth it to remain friends with them so at least somebody was in their life saying, well, I don't agree with that, right?
That is just as true today as it ever was.Politics is pushing us to turn people's identity, and always has, to make somebody's identity illegal or immoral.We are the ones that have to push back.If not us, who?Right?
If it's not the people who believe in morality and kindness and compassion, if it's not us, who do you think is doing it?Nobody.We're the ones that have to make that change.So yeah, it's worth it.
That is such a great perspective I hadn't thought about.Yeah, true.Yeah.I mean, I think it's easy to think, I don't want to associate with people who hate me or hate my family or believe that LGBTQ people don't deserve basic protections.
Why would I want to spend time with someone who, they're essentially saying they hate me and everybody I love.But what you're saying is, but I can be the person who can help them to maybe move past that point of view. people do change their minds.
I've changed my mind on lots of topics over the course of my life.Many, many, many topics.And that's such a good point, Celeste.It really is.Let's get back to this letter from Michelle for a moment.
Michelle ended her letter mentioning the hateful things that certain friends post online.So let's talk about the role that social media can play in political divides.
When we see what feels like hateful posts from friends online, is there a right thing to do?During political times like right now, should we be just not spending time online?What is the right reaction to this when we're dealing with our friends?
I mean, I'm always going to say spend less time online.Social media makes all of us worse people.Like that's just the bottom line of 30 years of research.It just makes us combative, defensive.It exacerbates the worst part of the human personality.
And what's more, again, it dehumanizes people.So, you know, if someone is posting stuff that upsets you, unfollow them.It doesn't matter how good a friend you can be friends in real life with people you cannot be friends with online.
That's the bare truth of it.When you are in person with someone or on the phone, you get all this positive feedback that makes that relationship, even when you disagree, beneficial for both parties.
That creates this human connection, which is part of our survival on this planet. None of that is there when you're online.You're just going to be a dick.They're going to be a dick and you're going to make it worse.
So if it's interfering with your mental health, block them, unfollow them.And if they come to you and say, you know, why did you do that?You can just say, you know, I love you, but the stuff you post upsets me.
So I, I don't need to see, you know, any of those posts, but I'm still your friend.Right.
If somebody doesn't accept that, then you have a different problem, right?When you set healthy boundaries and someone else wants to walk all over them, that's a different problem entirely.
All right, Celeste, another listener, Amanda, wonders if what she does with her family can maybe work with her friends.
She says, my immediate and extended family are close, but the younger generations are more liberal, while older ones, our parents, are conservative.We make it work by having a no politics policy at family gatherings. Does it always work?No.
We had a huge blow up two Thanksgivings ago and one cousin still won't come to family events.But overall it has worked.So what do you think of this approach of keeping politics off limits with friends and family?Do you think that's a good one?No.
I think that in extreme cases, in other words, if you have tried to have civil conversations and it has never worked, then yes, that can be an absolute last ditch effort to preserve a relationship.
But part of the reason people have blowups about politics is because they don't talk about them. We should normalize these conversations and normalize disagreeing with one another.
The more normal that is, it's not some scandal when you disagree with people.Look, you guys are both married, I'm divorced.It doesn't matter how much you love somebody, you disagree on stuff.
And thank goodness, how weird would it be if we were all clones of each other?That'd be so boring.
Exactly.So we expect that in every other area except for politics.For some reason, we are completely unforgiving of disagreement in politics, whereas we know we're going to disagree about how to load the goddamn dishwasher.
And who gets to do what chore. We have to normalize this idea that you won't agree on everything.And the more you avoid something, we know that the more it becomes associated with shame in the human brain.
The topics that you avoid are the ones that become associated with negative feelings, shame, and guilt.So yeah, of course you had to blow up Amanda. because it had been building.
It's not like you had successfully pushed it under the rock, and nobody thought about it again.It was just pressure building.
And at that particular case, there was one casualty, the cousin, that won't come to any more dinners, but in the future it could be more.The pressure is always gonna build up until it breaks, build up until it breaks.
Yeah.Okay, so no talking about politics, not necessarily the rule that you would encourage people to adopt. Yes.All right.Celeste, we're going to take one more quick break.
But when we're back, we are going to ask you for some specific tips on mixing friends and politics.
This episode is brought to you by Shopify.Upgrade your business with Shopify, home of the number one checkout on the planet.ShopPay boosts conversions up to 50%, meaning fewer cards going abandoned and more sales going cha-ching.
So if you're into growing your business, get a commerce platform that's ready to sell wherever your customers are.Visit Shopify.com to upgrade your selling today.
Feel your max with Brooks Running and the all-new Ghost Max 2.They're the shoes you deserve, designed to streamline your stride and help protect your body.
Treat yourself to feel-good landings on an ultra-high stack of super-comfy nitrogen-infused cushion that takes the edge off every step, every day.The Brooks Ghost Max 2.You know, technically, they're a form of self-care.Brooks.Let's run there.
Head to brooksrunning.com to learn more.
This episode is brought to you by Allstate.Some people just know they could save hundreds on car insurance by checking Allstate first.Like you know to check you have the tickets in your wallet first before you drive two hours to the big game.
Seriously, you had one job.Now the closest you'll get to the 50 yard line is parking lot D. Yeah, checking first is smart.So check Allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds.You're in good hands with Allstate.Savings vary, terms apply.
Allstate Fire and Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates, Northbrook, Illinois.
Hey everyone, we are back with Celeste Hedley, author of We Need to Talk.And Celeste, one final question for you.What are a few things that we can do, that our listeners can do this week to bridge that political divide with friends?
First of all, make everything completely personal.People tend to talk about politics like, you know, people on welfare do blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.I don't want anyone to be talking about groups of other people.
I want them to be talking about their own experience.So when people start saying people on welfare, I say, were you on welfare? You have a strong opinion about this.Where does this come from?What was your experience?
When do you have somebody in your family who's ever been on public assistance?You want to keep it as personal as possible.That one data point.Because it's when we start talking about other people that we really get into the dangerous waters.
So that's number one.The second thing is be in touch with yourself and know when you've had enough.And be honest about it.Say, I'm starting to get wound up.
and I don't wanna get all angry and say something I didn't mean, so let's shelve this for right now.I wanna come back with it, I'm enjoying the conversation, but I need to. step away.Let's talk about ice cream or whatever it may be.
The last thing I will say is these conversations don't have to be deep.They can be as simple as asking what the weather is like in your part of town.They really can be like the most important thing in the election for me is closing the border.
that's not true for me, but say somebody says that to you.I'll say, that's interesting to me.And I might make a joke like, that's interesting to me, especially for somebody who lives in Missouri.But, you know, we could talk about it another time.
You know, my most important thing is this.And then you can move the conversation on to something else.Don't underestimate the power of going off on a tangent.Change the subject.
Such great advice, Celeste.
You don't have to, like, stay in it.You can change the direction.You can opt out.Like, yeah.And you don't have to lose friends.
You don't have to lose friends.And you don't have to turn the people you disagree with into villains.Right.Yes.
Yes.So true.So true.Well, Celeste, thank you so much for all of this great advice.Where can our listeners find more of you and your outstanding work?
The easiest thing is just to go to my website, CelesteHedley.com.I do still use Twitter, and I still call it Twitter.
And I post lots of dog pictures on my Instagram.
I am giving a full endorsement of the dog pictures on Instagram.They are good.
Yes, yes.I mean, the last thing I say is that a lot, if you really want specifics, the book Speaking of Race that Kristen mentioned earlier literally walks you through this, and I always bring the receipts.
Like, I will explain to you the evidence behind these tactics, why they work, and how it'll benefit your life.So. should you feel like doing some more reading, then you can.
Yes, it is an outstanding book, and you can get the audiobook version if you want to, too, and hear more of Celeste's beautiful voice.Walking through, in a very human way, what can feel like something that's very scary and contentious for some of us.
So, Celeste, once again, thank you so much.We so appreciate everything today.This is going to be so helpful for our listeners, and I know it's definitely going to be helpful for me personally.
Yeah, and good luck with all these conversations, everyone.Yeah, may they be kind.
And that's it for this episode of How to Be Fine with Friends.
Be sure to tell us what friend-related topics you want us to cover and share your own successes and challenges in making friends in our private Facebook community.That's facebook.com slash groups slash Kristen and Jolinda.
And don't forget, if you love By the Book and want to hear more of that, you can find it in two places.The original 10 seasons are right here in the feed you're listening to right now.
If you just scroll back in the How to Be Fine feed, it'll be there.And if you want new By the Book episodes, we release them in our Patreon community along with a live monthly book club to discuss the book we just lived by.
Check it out and learn more. at patreon.com slash listen to buy the book.Until next time, I'm Kristin Meinzer, and I'm Jalinda Greenberg.
Thanks so much for listening, everyone.Bye.
Why choose a Sleep Number Smart Bed?
Can I make my side softer?
Can I make my side firmer?Can we sleep cooler?Sleep Number does that.Cools up to eight times faster and lets you choose your ideal comfort on either side.Your Sleep Number setting.
And now, during our Veterans Day sale, save 40% on the Sleep Number Special Edition Smart Bed.Limited time.To find a store near you, visit sleepnumber.com.
Sign in
