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On the Bechdel cast, the question's asked if movies have women in them.Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they have individualism?The patriarchy's effin' vast.Start changing it with the Bechdel cast.
Nom nom nom, Jamie.I'm hungry.For what?For you.
For me?For my ass?Yeah, for your ass and your titties.Egg on my ass.I thought he took her whole ass, but it turns out just a portion
question I'm not sure right because she seems like she has her ass pretty much intact afterwards yeah but I don't know but I guess I forgot again my male gaze radar is all off and I forgot to check the size of her ass at the beginning of the movie
Well, I was looking.Okay, good.
Good.Disrespectfully, I'm sure.Yes, I was gazing in a very objectifying way.And I didn't notice that much of a difference.Wow, get her ass.
Okay.Wow, what a really a really feminist introduction to the episode.Welcome to the Bechdel cast.My name is Jamie Loftus.
My name is Caitlin Durante, and this is our show where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens using the Bechdel test as a jumping off point.
Well, the Bechdel test is a media metric created by Alison Bechdel and her friend Liz Wallace, which is why it's often called the Bechdel-Wallace test.It was originally created as a bit for Alison Bechdel's iconic comic collection.
thanks to Watch Out For, but eventually became used as a sort of metric to see if people care about characters of marginalized genders.And the answer is often no.Today, I think we have a great discussion ahead. Yes.
So the version of the test that we use, a little bit of a modified version, requires that two characters of a marginalized gender with names speak to each other about something other than a man for two lines of dialogue or more.
Yeah, that's sort of what we're up to.Yeah.I appreciate, if nothing else, The movie we're talking about today really warns you about men from Oregon.And I think that's a really important PSA that I rarely see reflected in film.
To all of our listeners in Oregon, can't wait to see you at the next live show.But like men from Oregon. Scary.Scary to me, personally.In my lived experience, I'm afraid of them.In my lived experience, they want to steal my ass and eat it.
That's just my lived experience.
Sure, sure, sure. That hasn't happened to me yet, time will tell.
I was about to say, well, it's just a matter of time.It's just a matter of time.You meet them in a different city and then you find out months in, they're from Oregon, and then you're like, oh, this man's trying to kill me.
We're covering Fresh, 2022.Originally released on Hulu, was it?Yes.I believe.Jamie, what's your relationship slash history with the movie?
Well, first, I just realized that the character played by Sebastian Stan is, in fact, from Texas.So I would like to modify, as he tells us.And so, actually, I would just like to say men who live in Florida.
I'd like to totally backtrack everything I said.I was just trying to be rude to an ex-boyfriend.But, you know, there's plenty of time left in the episode to do that.
In any case, my history with this movie is that I had not seen it.I meant to and then didn't, as so very often happens to me with movies on streamers.It's weird.
I feel like I used to be sort of the reverse of this, but now it's like I am much less likely to watch a movie if I don't get a chance to watch it in theaters.
You're a theater girlie now.
I'm a theater girl.I'm an AOC Stubbs pass holder.So yeah, I would have loved to see this in theaters.It's a bummer that it that didn't happen.I don't know if there was like a limited release or something.
But, but yeah, I really liked the stars of this movie.Daisy Edgar Jones.And of course, I Tonya's own Sebastian Stan.Yes.
So I was excited to see it, and I'd never seen... I know that this was the director Mimi Cave's feature-length debut, which is wild.I feel like it's such a fully realized thing.Yeah, I enjoyed it.
It's a brief and uncomplicated history with this movie.What about you, Caitlin?
I did see it about a year ago, maybe not right when it came out, but within not too long of it being released, our mutual friend Bryant and I watched it together.And I thought it was interesting.Yeah, I think I already knew what it was about.
It's about cannibalism.And I knew that going in.So I wasn't like surprised at the twist or anything.
I kind of was surprised at well, if we could talk about like pacing and stuff.Yeah, because I also felt I hadn't even seen the trailer for it.
I don't think but I knew what this movie was about, like maybe just through like, hearsay or whatever it was.
But yeah, but yeah, it takes a long time for it to reveal that it's a cannibal movie for a movie that it seems like everyone knows is a cannibal movie.
Right?What are you gonna do?What are you gonna do?I did earlier today write a letter boxed
review brave never done before yes simply states this movie gives new meaning to the term meet cute yeah i gotta hand it to you i gotta hand it to you thank you so much but anyway yeah i uh i saw the movie i was like oh that was pretty cool and um now we're talking about it so let's proceed shall we
I'm very excited.Yeah.There is a certain amount of, like, catharsis to watching a movie like this.For sure.I quite enjoy.So if nothing else, I feel like it's a good opportunity for us to publicly air out some personal dating horrors.
And isn't that beautiful?
That's honestly a lot of what my discussion will be about here today.
Okay, great.Then welcome to a gossip with us.Because yeah, I feel like I really enjoyed this movie.And part of it was because there were just like, you could just tell that it was written by a woman who has to date men.
just there were like these little details that you're like, ooh, ooh, no, yeah, that, including like, there's nothing more bone chilling than being in a man's home.And there's no signal.And you're like, scary.I hate to ruin the mood.
But I like I remember having to do that once being like, I hate to like, wreck the mood, but I need you to give me the Wi-Fi just in case you want to kill me.But you just have to be direct about it.
Because honestly, at that point, if he's going to kill you, he would just start at the request.This is true.It's not like I can change my fate at this point.But yeah, that reminded me of a couple of years ago.We were just like, oh my god.
Yeah, you have to be like, hey, I'm awkward, but I need to be able to call 911 in case you're horrible.
Mm hmm.Yeah, also, so we just covered Get Out.And I watched this movie on the same day that we covered.So I like watched Get Out in the morning, we recorded that episode.And then like later that night, I watched Fresh.So wild.What a day.
What a day for you.But the movie follows similar beats in the sense that it's, like, someone who goes to this unfamiliar place with a romantic partner.They have ulterior motives.The protagonist gets abducted.They have to try to escape.
Death is, or, you know, loss of autonomy is imminent.You know, lots of stuff like that.And then a victorious, triumphant escape from the prison. protagonist at the end.
So like, you know, obviously very different stories, but like following similar beats.
Similar, but I didn't think about that.Yeah, that's very, very true.Similar friend to the rescue thing.Yes, indeed.Although I did love that they had, oh my gosh, what is his character's name?The bartender.Oh, Paul.
Paul, yeah, I love that they did have Paul be like, no, no, goodbye.
He shows up to help and then he's like, nevermind.
Yeah, and you're just like, well, I wish he had called someone else, but I don't not get it.
Right.Because he's well, we'll talk about him.But yeah, I found that to be interesting.
I thought that was an interesting fake out because you I think maybe it is because we just watched Get Out.I kept waiting for like the TSA moment at the end of Get Out.You're like, Oh, no, he's gonna leave.
Yeah, I guess that that is like pretty realistic.Yeah.Anyways, I'll do the recap.
And then we'll go from there.Let's do it.Actually, let's take a quick break first.And then we'll come back.
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Because I remember you saying you could not register who that person was until I Tanya came out.And then you're like, oh, now I know who he is because he plays.Is it Jeff Gillooly?
Yes.Thank you for a great recall.
Uh, yes.I-I think that maybe, you know, in retrospect, my issue with registering Sebastian Stan's face had more to do with, like, Marvel glaze.Sure.
Where he was in a lot of Marvel movies, and I feel like, this is my theory, if you are in, like, enough Marvel movies, your face just becomes naturally blurry to the human eye for, like, five years.
But then it wears off, and you're like... And he's... And he's doing, I haven't, I don't know.I saw the Donald Trump movie and I was like, um, okay.But in any case, like he's, he's a good actor and I feel like he tries a lot of interesting stuff.
But this was around the time where he was starting to try more interesting stuff instead of just playing like the PP warrior or like whoever he is in Marvel. Is he the peepee warrior?
Yeah, no, that's correct.Is he the winter soldier or is someone else the winter soldier?Don't answer my question, listeners.I don't want to know, actually.
We don't know.I'm just like, congratulations to Sebastian Stan for the blur finally wearing off of his face.I do register him now as an autonomous human man, and I think he's quite talented.Mm-hmm.
yeah no but i agree itanya really did it for me and while he plays a despicable character in that movie he is unfortunately so hot he's really hot in that movie specifically
the little mustache and you're like, oh no, what is it?And then you're like, it's my dad.Like, you're like, what the fuck?Anyways, anyways, let's keep moving.
I do appreciate like, I feel like, and this will change the next time we talk about Sebastian Stan.None of this passes the Bechdel test, but he has like, I appreciate when an actor recognizes they have like a somewhat punchable kind of handsome face.
Because Sebastian Stan, like, he's like villainous handsome. Yeah, yeah, I think so.Anyways, Daisy Edgar Jones was great in Twisters.Yeah.And Under the Banner of Heaven, did you watch that?I did not.Well, it's really depressing.
Don't watch it unless you want to get really upset.
I feel like I know of it because you made a joke to the effect of Under the Banner of Kevin Le Mignon.
Thank you.Thank you for bringing that up.I didn't know if there was going to be a way to bring that up organically. Yes, I would absolutely watch Under the Banner of Kevin.Under the Banner of Heaven, it's an Andrew Garfield police detective show.
I would say maybe too sad.Maybe don't watch.
But Under the Banner of Kevin, yes.Anyway, yes.Let's keep moving along.
I like chaos episode, chaos episode.
All right, so this is a horror movie.So, you know, content warnings, there's violence against women, there's abduction, there's human trafficking, there's cannibalism.
The movie takes place in the Pacific Northwest in Portland, specifically, I believe. yes we meet noah played by daisy edgar jones she's a single lady looking for if not love she's just dating she's out there dating going on dates
She goes on a first date with a guy who ends up being a total asshole.She's not having luck on the dating apps, men are being gross and sending her dick pics, unsolicited, things like that.
Her best friend Molly, played by Jojo T. Gibbs, reassures Noah that she doesn't need a man and they've just been conditioned by Disney princess movies to have unrealistic expectations about love and romance.
And you're like, okay, 2012.Let's, let's, let's freaking go Busby 2012.
So one night, Noah heads to the grocery store to grab some treats.A guy there strikes up a conversation with her about cotton candy grapes.This is Steve played by Sebastian Stan.
OK, mistake number one, don't go on a date with someone you meet in the vegetable aisle.Proceed with caution, I would say.Well, just the vegetable aisle.Like if I met a guy near the macaroni, I would be like, sure.
You'd be like, ooh.Yeah. I did have a guy approach me in the grocery store one time.This was back when I lived in Boston, so probably like 12 years ago.And he was just like, hi, you're so beautiful.And I said, who, me?
And then we did go on a coffee date.I want to say later that day.It was like a Saturday or Sunday.And I was just like, I'm not doing anything.You almost got freshed.I almost got freshed.
But I quickly realized that I was not romantically interested in him.And I said, I'm going to leave forever now.Bye.So I saved myself from being freshed.
Good for you.Good for you.Thank you.I feel like I'm constantly putting myself in situations where I could possibly get freshed.It's a common criticism of me.
But so far, so good.So far, so good.And it's not your fault if it happens.I mean, let's be honest.When? Well, let's try not to put that out into the universe.
But anyway, she's approached by this, you know, charming guy who's trying to flirt and he asks for her number and he's Sebastian Stan.So she says yes, and she gives him her number.Who could blame her?She's but human.Right.
A few days later, he texts her and they meet up for a date and they hit it off.It seems like they have a lot in common.They smooch.They go back to her place.And Jamie, they have sex.
I should have done a content warning for that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.Stop!This episode is rated R. Okay, so some time passes and they keep seeing each other.It's going well.It's cute.He even suggests they go away together on a weekend trip.
But Molly, her best friend, is a bit wary of this guy because he doesn't have social media.She's never met him.She doesn't know what he looks like.
She doesn't like that this trip is this surprise that he's kind of springing on Noah, especially because she doesn't know where they're going. But they're like, whatever, it will be fine.
And so Steve picks up Noah, and they head to his place before going to whatever this destination is, which turns out to be Cottage Grove, Oregon.
And also where he lives seems to be a several hour drive away from the city, because by the time they get there, it's dark.
Yeah, I was a little confused about that.But also, I mean, I can definitely relate with, even though this kind of stretches credulity a little bit, the feeling of like, I don't know, like someone that you like, being like, this is normal.
And then I've definitely been a person that's like, uh huh, yeah, totally.And this is regular for me.Like, it's unfortunately, definitely a thing.
yeah because you like want to put your trust into someone that you like and so you're just like sure everything's fine although we do see Noah seeming a bit uneasy about this because she gets to the house she wants to connect to the wi-fi there's no cell service and you know he ignores that he makes her a drink which he has drugged and Noah loses consciousness
And then we get the title card and the opening credits, which is like 30 minutes into the movie.So surprise.The movie's called Fresh.So it turns out Steve is the bad guy.Yeah.Noah wakes up in a windowless room.Her arm is chained to the floor.
And we're like, OK, Saw vibes.
Saw vibes.I was also thinking of 10 Cloverfield Lane, a movie I really like.
Oh, I need to rewatch that.
I remember really liking it.
Yeah, I know.So did I, except for I remember thinking the end, and I'll try not to say any spoilers here, but the end felt tacked on and that it belonged in a different movie.
The end was really weird.
Well, also because you find out that that was a script written on spec, I think, that had nothing to do with the Cloverfield franchise.Right.And then they bought the script and then, like, co-opted it into a Cloverfield movie.
And so you're just like, what?It doesn't make any sense.Anyway, OK, so she wakes up in this room chained to the wall.But instead of jigsaw on a tape recorder saying, let's play a game.
Steve is in the room and he explains that he drugged Noah and that he intends to keep her trapped there, chop off pieces of her, and sell her meat.Because people pay him a lot of money for human meat.
And he says he's going to keep her alive as long as possible because the fresher the meat, the better and the more valuable it is.And we're like, hey, the name of the movie is Fresh. And they meet in the fresh produce aisle.Uh-huh.
And she's standing under a sign that says fresh meats.Wow.And that's just a little joke he's doing.
Yeah.The movie's called Fresh.
The movie's called Fresh.
And you won't forget it as you're watching the movie Fresh.
Yeah.So he's like, I won't kill you right away unless you act up, in which case he'll kill her sooner.So Noah is obviously terrified because, believe it or not, she wants to keep her meat on her body.
Molly, meanwhile, is trying to call and text Noah because Molly hasn't heard from her.And she gets a text response.And it's clear to us, the audience, that it's Steve pretending to be Noah.
So back in Noah's dungeon room, she's screaming, she's crying, she hears a voice coming from the room next to her.
This is Penny, played by Andrea Bang, saying that Steve isn't there right now and that she's in the same situation as Noah, although Steve has already started cutting off parts of her to sell her meat.
And there's a third woman, Melissa, although she has been there for a while and it seems that she has, like, lost her mind.
Steve comes back and we see him cut up Melissa's amputated leg.He's tenderizing the meat, he seals it, he packages it into a few different boxes.
And he's like basically doing, I mean there is a portion of this movie where Sebastian Stan is like Remember Christian Bale in American Psycho?I'm kind of doing that.
Like the, you know, the needle drops and stuff felt very reminiscent of American Psycho.Sure.
Yeah.Yeah.You half expect Sebastian Stan to start monologuing about Huey Lewis in the news or Whitney Houston or something.
Right.Right.Like he's not as far gone.But I mean, what kind of yardstick is that?But yeah, I feel like grooving around with his victims to like 80s music.You're like, I know this.I know.
For some reason, this is a trope.
Right.Yes.And he's, like, putting the meat in these, like, little care packages along with, like, the photos of the women and, like, articles of their clothing and stuff like that.
It seems like he always, like, says to these women, let's go on a trip.And then that way they pack a bag full of stuff and then he steals it.
And anyway, so... He's objectifying women, Caitlin.Would you agree that he views women as perhaps objects? What do you mean?That was the thought I had.It wasn't until the very end of the movie.But let's discuss that further.Hold on a second.Wait.
Wait a minute.I don't think this guy respects ladies at all.
Right.All right.So Noah is determined to get out of this situation. She tells Steve that she needs to take a shower, which he is about to let her do, so he leads her upstairs.
She takes note of her surroundings, but then she tries to break free and escape, and Steve stops her.When she wakes up again, she's on a surgical bed, and he is surgically removing her buttocks.Wilds.Yeah.
Molly, meanwhile, is still concerned, and she starts digging and realizes that the picture that Noah, quote-unquote, texted of her trip is actually a stock photo from a website.So Molly knows something's up.
Also, the second your good friend starts texting you fully punctuated sentences, you're like, they've been kidnapped.They've been taken.Your close friend would never send you a full sentence in a text.
That's absurd.Also, you see Molly's face have this look of incredulity when she sends a heart emoji. And it almost seems like, oh, she never uses emojis.That wasn't established.
And I feel like that maybe would have been helpful to establish that, like, Noah never uses emojis.But you see her be suspicious.Molly, that is, when she gets the heart emoji.And that's when she starts kind of investigating.She sees the stock photo.
And so she goes to the bar where Noah went on her first date with Steve.And she asks the bartender, Paul, played by Teo Okeniwi, who is a former lover of Molly's.They used to have a casual hookup situation, it seemed.
And she asks Paul to give her any info on Steve, like his last name from the credit card that he paid with.And Paul eventually gives Molly Steve's full name.So she gets to Googling.And it seems like Steve has a wife and two young kids.
And she finds out where he lives. Back in the dungeon, Noah confides in Penny that she slept with Steve, and Penny's like, oh, whoa, like, none of the rest of us did, but I'm not shaming you, it's probably a compliment, actually.
Yeah, Penny's, like, through-the-wall comments are very, very funny, where she's like, no shame, no shame, but like, wow.
Whoa. Right.And then when Noah asks Steve why he slept with her, he's like, yeah, I told you I like you.Then in a magazine that Steve gave Noah to like help her pass the time, Noah notices writing from another woman.
And it says, like, if you're reading this, it means he likes you.Use it.Keep fucking fighting.And then it's signed Sammy Iqbari. So, Noah, taking this advice, tries a new tactic where she asks Steve what the human meat tastes like.
And he's like, oh, it's exquisite.Why do you ask, though?And she's like, haha, I don't know, just curious.And he's like, hmm.
I still haven't seen Silence of the Lambs.Is he Hannibal lecturing now?Is he like oscillating between?
No, I wasn't getting Hannibal Lecter vibes from Steve.
But isn't Hannibal Lecter a cannibal?
I mean, he says, like, I ate her liver with fava beans and a nice Chianti, but... But he's just a killer.He's not, like, a down-home cannibal.
Well, like Hannibal Lecter, I don't think we, at least in Silence of the Lambs, I haven't seen the other, like, there's Hannibal and then there's Red Dragon and then there's a show and, you know, the sequels and the spin-offs and stuff like that, I haven't seen.
But in Silence of the Lambs, you never see Hannibal.He's not like a flirty, charming, handsome young guy who's like, wow, drag him.
Sorry.Sorry, Anthony Hopkins looks like shit.
He's just scary.So he has a different approach than Steve.
OK.OK.Thank you.I need it.I wanted to know.
Thank you. Meanwhile, Molly goes to Steve's house, where he lives with his family.So, like, his other home, not the one that he has a whole, like, cannibalism laboratory at.
And Molly tells his wife, Anne, played by Charlotte Labon, that her friend Noah has been seeing Steve.And Anne is like, are you sure?That doesn't sound right. And then Steve comes home, so Molly sees him and he denies that he knows Noah.
So Molly calls Noah's phone, which Steve has on him, and it starts ringing.So he's busted.But twist!His wife is in on the whole operation and she knocks Molly out.
The thing that was interesting about this movie is I really enjoyed it and none of the twists surprised me.Like, I feel like the second you see her haircut, you're like, she's in on it.
You know?She does give off vibes that are a little too sinister for me to be super surprised by that twist.Yeah.Yeah.
So Anne, the wife, is in on this whole cannibalism operation thing, and then we get another reveal that she, Anne, has a prosthetic leg.Presumably, she was one of Steve's former victims.She's a survivor of this situation.
And then he spared Anne and married her, is what you can, like, gather. Then Steve basically invites Noah on a little date upstairs where he prepares a dinner of human meat for her.
And the whole time she is, like, you know, calculating a way out of there.
Brings a whole new meaning to girl dinner, am I right, Caitlin?Whoa!Ha ha ha ha!
So anyway, she's feigning interest in the line of work he's in, the cannibalism industry.And he's telling her about it.And she's like, uh-huh.And she asks if he only eats women.And he's like, yeah, that's where the market is.Plus, they taste better.
And then she eats some human meat from a woman named Hope. And then he brings her back to her room after the date.She makes herself throw up this meal because, you know, she obviously only ate it to manipulate him.
But it's working and he wants to have dinner with her again the following night. Then we see Steve take Molly out of her, like, dungeon enclosure.Noah doesn't know that Molly is there, although she does realize that some new woman is present.
And then Steve cuts part of Molly off. Also, Molly had shared her location with Paul, and he sees that she's somewhere far away.And then her location becomes unavailable entirely.And so he's like, Hmm, that's weird.
And then he'll eventually set off to go find her.
Then it's time for the next little date between Noah and Steve and she's being very flirty and familiar and she's like clearly trying to put Steve at ease and Get him very comfortable to like let his guard down and all that stuff.
They eat Melissa liver pate They also eat breast meat which I think might belong to Molly because I feel like it's implied what's being removed from her is Molly's breasts and
Oh, okay.Because I also was just like very unclear on, I mean, not that I'm like, be more specific, but like, I was kind of unclear on just the, there's a little bit of yada yada when it comes to the healing process.For sure.
Because I just feel like if someone took even half of my ass, I wouldn't be like, I can sit down for a date next week.
you would think it would take a lot longer to heal?
As a horror fan, I feel like it's almost a missed opportunity to like do some like, and he has this freaky chair he designed for women without asses.
Like, you know, I feel like she does sit on one of those like little cushioned doughnuts.
That's true.That's true.But he does care.
He thinks of everything.Steve.Also, another reason I think it's Molly is because he doesn't specify whose breasts they're eating.He says the other names of the other.
But he doesn't say he doesn't want her to know.
Yeah. He shows her this stash of all the belongings from, like, the women he has abducted, as well as photos of them, so Noah sees Melissa and Penny and Sammy, who had left the note in the magazine, as well as all their phones.
So now she, like, knows where the phones are.And then she really turns up the charm, except, well, she's like, she gets very vulnerable, and she's crying, and he's like, come here, babe, it's okay.
and then they start kissing, and then they dance, and then they start fooling around, and she's about to go down on him, but then she bites his dick off, question mark?
I hope so.I hope so.Again, a little unclear.I kind of wonder if this wasn't, like, available on Disney+, like, if you would really get to see. It is so weird.I added Hulu to my Disney Plus, and now it's just like... Well, it's cheaper.It really is.
Like, but no, it's funny, like, when you add Hulu to Disney Plus, it just defeats the purpose of Disney Plus entirely.Because you're like, oh, I feel like Disney Plus used to be really discerning about, like, it has to be family-friendly.
And you're like, now I can watch Daisy Edgar Jones, like, bite someone's dick off right after Nightmare Before Christmas or whatever.
Yeah. Yeah, I mean funny juxtaposition.
Yeah, but anyway, she bites his dick off or at least bites it enough that it draws a lot of blood and She smears toothpaste in his eyes and then she grabs a phone grabs some keys starts to escape but first she saves Molly and penny and the three of them you're like, what about Melissa and
Melissa is presumed dead because she no longer has a liver.They ate her liver.So I think that's implies.I guess I don't know how bodies work.
I'm like, don't you?I'm thinking of kidneys.And I'm thinking of kidneys because you need you don't have two livers.You roll it.
But you can live without one kidney.I just was like livers.You have two.
Um, okay.Yeah, just the one liver, and they ate it, so Melissa is probably dead.
So she can't save her, but she does save Penny and Molly.And the three of them fight off Steve with knives and meat tenderizers, and they manage to get outside into the woods.But Steve comes after them with a gun.He's shooting at them.
He is absolutely furious that Noah tricked him. Meanwhile, Paul has driven to Steve's house to try to find Molly, but he's like, this is creepy.And then he hears the gunshots.
And so he leaves being like, I've seen this movie and I don't make it out alive, you know, commenting on how black people often do not survive horror movies.
I did keep expecting him to come back.Same.But I kind of like that he doesn't.I like I mean, because they liberate themselves.
True.I was like, I hope he's at least nearby so that they can get a ride home from him.They are very far away.
And I mean, as we're about to talk about, like, the ending of this movie is very abrupt.It is.Yeah.
Although maybe, you know, everyone ends up dead, so maybe they just, like, take the keys to one of Sebastian Sand's cars and drive it.True.
I mean, I don't even mean that as a criticism.I was just like, oh, I guess it's good.
Yeah.Anyway, so Paul leaves, but Steve's wife Anne shows up at the house.She sees that Steve is in danger. But Noah, Molly, and Penny get to him first.Noah grabs his gun and shoots him in the head, killing him.
Then Noah goes back into the woods to get her phone, which she drops, and Anne approaches her, pretending to be one of Steve's victims.Then she attacks Noah, but Molly saves her and bashes in Anne's head with a shovel.
And then the movie ends with Noah and Molly embracing, plus a little button where Noah gets a text from I think the guy she went on a date with at the beginning of the movie saying like, you up?The end.So that's the movie.
Let's take another quick break and we'll come back to discuss.
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We're back.So, okay.Here's my big, I'm just going to come in with my big question.Say it.Okay.I feel like the characters are generally underdeveloped, but in particular, I feel like it really stands out with Molly's character.
I feel like the black best friend trope is being sort of deployed pretty heavily here.
I guess what I will say is that, like, I wouldn't say that, you know, we know Noah so well and we don't know anything about Molly.Like, I would say we don't really know either of these characters.
Very well, but it's just the trope of, like, while Molly is a very active character, and I like that their friendship is at the core of the movie, and you can read in this message of, like, you know, Steve's maybe biggest mistake with Noah is to assume that a lack of biological family in her life means that no one cares about her, and that she has found family with Molly and all this stuff.
Like, that is great.I like friendship between women at the core of a story. But, you know, while Molly's a very active character, she's in the story to service Noah.You know what I mean?I don't know.Did that come up for you?
Definitely.Especially because in the first, like, several scenes, we either see Molly in or, like, hear her in a phone conversation.She is just, like, giving advice to her straight white friend because we learn that Molly is queer.
It was to the point where I was like, I wonder if this is going to be a trope that's commented on within the movie, because it felt pretty obvious what trope is happening there, but it's not really commented on.
Where, yeah, she's just weirdly fixated on the relationship of her straight white friend.And you're just like, God, what year is it?Come on.
Yeah, you do see Molly talking about like what it's like to date women and how there are fewer games and there's more emotional dependence, which she's saying it seems like ingest, you know, she's kind of joking around because that's otherwise a pretty like reductive thing to say.
But it seems like she's joking.But
I was like well can't we see that then to give like Molly more interior life like see her dating women and what that does look like in contrast to Noah dating men that would develop Molly's character a bit more and make it so that she has more interiority versus everything she does is in service of her straight white best friend.
I do feel like she is, that Molly is integrated into the story more meaningfully than I was expecting because she does like go to investigate and then she helps to defeat Steve and she kills Anne but it still means that everything she does is to like help her white best friend.
Right.It's tricky because I do, yeah, Molly does become a very, I mean, the movie can't happen without Molly.It's not like she's strictly there.
And in the way that I feel like we see this trope in other movies where it's like a very expendable character who's just there to basically be like, so how are you feeling about the relationship?
So, like, I will give the writer, Lauren Kahn, like, credit for, you know, this movie is not possible without Molly.She is integral to the plot.She's extremely active.Like, she's smart.
Like, my favorite scenes with Molly and also Jojo T. Gibbs is really funny.She's great.But she thinks like a girl.Like, you know, like when something is, like, a little bit off with her friend or, like,
the way that she views texting and the way that she approaches things like it all felt very like authentic and relatable and like even the fact that just like the touches of like she makes sure to share her location with somebody when she's going into a situation that feels unsafe and just like
I liked her character in the internal logic that she has, and she's funny and she's cool, but it's like there's nothing else really there for her.
I feel like this movie would have been more interesting to me as a two-hander, where Molly and Noah are characters of equal importance, as opposed to Molly is Noah's friend, which is how this movie rolls out.For sure.
Yeah, and I don't think it would have been that big of an adjustment, like, writing-wise or structurally or anything like that, so... And I think it just, like, from a writing perspective, too, like, Molly is unbelievably loyal to Noah, like, which is great friend, love that.
But I would have liked to know a little bit more about their friendship.We don't really learn very much about it.Like, I think the most we get is her telling Steve They used to work together, yeah.Okay, like, you know, you work with a lot of people.
Like, and there, I don't know, like, I feel like there is something a little bit missing for me there, where I know in horror, very often, you don't get a ton of information about characters.That's fine, as long as it's equally distributed, right?
But like, it would have made more sense to me if Molly was like, Noah, you know, got me through. this really difficult period in my life.
Or, like, something to really explain why she will go balls to the wall for this character that I feel like gets away from the best friend trope a little bit.
Because not that, like, Noah, you know, that your friend should not actively, of course, try to rescue you if you've been kidnapped by a cannibal.Um, but...
But I do feel like I would have liked to understand their connection a little more, and I feel like it would have made the movie stronger.
Right, especially because we open on a conversation with them, you know, where Noah is getting advice from Molly.We close on a beat of them, like, embracing, saying, I love you, I love you more.
And it's like, well, then contextualize that a bit more, please.
And I feel the same way with Penny and Noah, where, again, you get, like, the suggestion of a, like, cool character dynamic between the two of them.
I feel like, you know, in a lesser movie, you'd have victims sort of turn against each other, or whatever it is, right?But they are very much on each other's side.But again, you're like, there's an opportunity for them to get to know each other.
And, like, they kind of, like, It's these, like, little jokes instead.And we don't learn very much about Penny.And again, I think it makes the movie stronger if we know more about her.Like, you know, and finding something she and Noah have in common.
Like, I don't know.I just, the relationships between women in general in this movie, I feel like, you know, there's interesting stuff there, but it kind of, like, there just wasn't enough for there to be a really...
impactful relationship between women.Molly and Noah are great, but it's just, for me, it was like, what have you guys done together?Like, okay, like, what is the friendship?
Yeah.I needed more for sure.Yeah.I want to talk about Anne. Her.Wow.Good Arrested Development reference.
Thank you.Yeah, let's talk about Anne Charlotte Le Bon.
Yes.So, you know, you can read her character as someone who did what she had to do in order to survive.It seems like she seduced Steve into sparing her and that was her method of escape from almost certain death.
Though I chose to read her character and her behavior as commentary on people who are like the victims or recipients or survivors of some form of oppression.
And then rather than siding with other oppressed people like you think they would because you think they'd have empathy because they experienced the same oppression themselves, but instead they align themselves with the oppressor and become complicit in, if not active participants, in the oppression of others.
Which is something I think about a lot.I'm constantly thinking about this.It happens a lot in society.Ever heard of it?And I find it to be such a troubling yet fascinating phenomenon.
Yeah.I mean, it's like all the fucking time.Like how many?
This is unfortunate, but yeah, I feel like a lot of people have the experience of, especially people of marginalized genders, of like, my first boss, who's not a man, and then they are also upholding the same shit.
And you're like, well, what the fuck?What is the point?What is the point?
You know, it's the trad wife phenomenon.It's like when Black people become cops, you know, there's like a bunch of different examples.
And there's all of these, like, societal reasons.Like you're saying, like, there's societal reasons as to why this happens, but it is... it's, like, sad.It's sad to see a character as, like, Anne.And I appreciated that.
I thought that, yeah, that was, like, one of the more effective things in the movie.I guess I am fine with the way that that character went, but the thing I liked the most is that...
I feel like the movie, it does not have a ton of empathy for Anne, but I think it had a little bit in a way that I think was interesting, where Noah, it seems like, is being presented with the beginnings of the same kind of dynamic, right?
Where, like, Noah, in order to escape the immediate circumstances, is having to play meatball with this guy, right?Like, he's... Thank you.Thank you.
No, but, like, she is sort of having to play ball with him in order to liberate herself, and she is different.She liberates the other women who are trapped there.
But I did think it was interesting that it was like, oh, this is almost certainly what happened with Anne, but she did not liberate the other people.And, you know, I would hazard a guess out of fear and like out of selfishness and fear. Right.
Which is why a lot of people of marginalized genders uphold the patriarchy because it's personally advantageous and because they're afraid of not aligning.And you see it everywhere.You see it in fucking politics all the fucking time.Yes.
Right.I think it has a lot to do with power dynamics as well, where people will choose the side of the oppressor because the oppressor has more power.And they think that if they align with the oppressor, they will inherit some of that power.
And that is true.And that does happen sometimes.But it doesn't mean that they will be immune to oppression and marginalization because
this oppression is very large scale and it's systemic and it needs to be fought against, which is what Noah does, rather than what Anne does, which is like, you know, uphold it after she escapes, quote unquote, from the oppression.
Yeah, I thought that was really effective.Yeah.And then, I mean, We are quite literally bashed over the head with that message as well.When Molly kills Anne, and I think she says, like, bitches like you are the problem.
Like, yeah, I came to you for help.I almost, like, again, I feel like I'm coming down too hard on it.I almost, like, didn't need that.I'm like, yeah, no, I got it.I got it.Yes, Anne is a part of the problem.But, you know, it's a horror movie.
It can't be.It's weird.Sure, sure. But yeah, I thought that that was pretty effective.I did have just like a story logic question where, so like, they have two kids and Sebastian stands just bonking women over the head.
And meanwhile, my sons are asleep.My two gorgeous sons are asleep upstairs.
And his murder cannibal house is so far away.Like, how does he have the time to drive there and back to his other house where his family lives?You know?Yeah.
You know, cheating men, you know, men with a secret life, they make it work.They make it work.
Yeah.They're our strongest soldiers.Yeah.I thought the Anne stuff was effective.And I feel like that character's presence was pretty well balanced.What I was interested in, what did you think of when she saw, I don't know, I guess, OK,
I do have questions about her ending, right?Because for a second, I was like, are we supposed to believe that this is, like, Anne's idea?No, it's Steve's idea, which makes more sense.
But, you know, she sees his body, and I feel like you sort of get a sense of, like, a little bit of relief from her.She's like, all right, put it on ice.We're gonna sell his meat, I feel like is the suggestion there.But then she, like, pretends
to be grateful for Noah, but then tries to kill her.I guess I was just like a little bit confu... I guess that's just the power dynamic, right?Where she's like, now I'm going to have the meat business.Business.
Like, I guess I was a little confused about what her endgame was, because theoretically, like, she is now liberated too.Yes.But I don't know.
Yeah, I guess that she's just, like, so deep in the... Meat.
So deep in the meat.Of course, it's, like, she... I don't know.I guess I don't know how that would play out for her in the courts.Uh-huh.But, yeah, I'm like, Anne, you really want to keep running this business?
Like, it seems like it's kind of on thin ice as it is. In any case, I just wanted to mention that, because I wasn't totally... Because the movie does just end very quickly for me, where I would have been interested in maybe one more beat with Anne.
To understand where she's coming from a little better.
Like, obviously, her character is indefensible, but, like, in order to just, like, explore the idea that we were just talking about a little more and siding with the oppressor and what leads to there, I feel like it maybe would have benefited from a little more...
investigation of that, especially because, like, Noah and Anne, it seems like, were treated pretty similarly towards the beginning by Steve.And I almost feel like, well, then don't you want to see those characters, like, interact a little bit?
I don't know.I think it could have been interesting.
Yeah.And what about Anne made her gravitate toward being complicit and being part of the problem versus, like, what were her circumstances that led her to that versus, like, how did she differ from Noah?
Right.I mean, because she is, obviously, she is a villain, but she's a more complicated villain than Steve.And I feel like it would have been interesting and just, again, like, another chance to, like,
have more character moments between the women in this movie that just kind of like doesn't happen.Yeah.
Also worth noting that Anne is a character with a prosthetic limb, which is not the case for the actor Charlotte Labon, so it's another example of an able-bodied actor playing a disabled character.
I want to also briefly touch on the man who is with Anne at the end who she tells like put his body on ice.This is someone who we've seen briefly before seems to be like an assistant who like helps deliver the packaged meat.
He appears to be like a First Nations Indigenous person but we don't know anything about this person.He has like I think no dialogue We don't know why he would be working for this white couple doing their evil bidding.
Like he clearly knows what they're doing.He's standing right there when like the dead body of Steve is there.Like he's packaging the, you know, he's, he knows what the operation is.
So it's just like, why this, like, this is not the inclusion or representation we need of indigenous characters. Why was this choice made?
Yeah, a character that could be so easily removed.Again, yeah, just another, like, it just feels a little bit like, what are we trying to do here?
Right.Because like a lot of casting in contemporary movies within the past few years, it is more inclusive. But a lot of these movies are still made by white people, and they're just like, oh, I have to fill a quota, right?
You know, I want to be inclusive in my casting, but they're not giving a lot of thought about like, who is in what role?Who is occupying what character?Who has the narrative power?
Like, yeah, and what implications a certain person cast in a certain role has and whether that tracks logically at all.So that felt to me like an example of like, oh, let's see an indigenous person on screen.
but in a role that could be taken out of the movie without any issue.Like, yeah, I agree with you there.And yeah, it's frustrating because I don't know who cast this movie.It is a fairly diverse cast, but it cuts along very, very tropey lines.
And this movie came out two years ago.Like, there's really no reason for that. to have happened.And it ultimately kind of undercuts what this movie is trying to do by, like, you know, subverting the gaze of a cannibal movie, which is a cool idea.
And, like, it works for me for the most part.But it's, like, that level of care, again, it's just kind of...
I mean, like a white feminism-y thing to do is for one message to come through really clearly, but the, you know, intersectional thinking I don't think was there, at least in the casting.I mean, yeah, in the casting it definitely wasn't.For sure.
Yeah, should we talk about Steve?Let's talk about Steve.I have to say, I thought the, like, rom-com portion of this movie was very effective for me in terms of just, like, I mean, rom-com's the wrong thing to call it.
But just, I think my favorite parts of the movie, the cannibal stuff, great, sure.And I like it.But there was this, like, weird satisfaction of watching someone who is smart, blow past all of these red flags.
It just made me feel better about myself, you know?
Where so many times, you know, it's like if you end up in a bad situation, you end up in a bad relationship, you're made out to be like, God, I'm, I mean, and she says that to herself, like, I'm so stupid.Like, how could I have let this happen?
And I feel like the movie does do a really good job of illustrating the fact, I mean, sometimes it's just Penny saying that through the wall.
Um, but, like, that, no, like, there was not some crucial thing that you did wrong that means that you're now getting cannibaled.
But I thought that the writing with, like, the subtle red flags, that whole section, that whole beginning section really worked for me.
Especially because the red flags are subtle enough that even if you are smart and intuitive and perceptive, you might not recognize them.
Especially because in just the landscape of modern dating and so many men, and I'm now speaking from personal experience here, but like,
cis men tend to not consider the fact that people of marginalized genders move through the world very differently.And that there's a level of like, caution and self preservation that we have to be far more concerned about than cis men.And
I try to communicate that a lot with like people I've matched with on a dating app and we're scheduling a first date and I am and not that I've always done this but boy have I learned my lessons but like generally speaking
I will insist that we meet in a public space and in a neighborhood that is familiar to me because I need an exit strategy.If I need to get away, I want to be able to do it safely and I want to like have it be in a place where I can navigate easily.
people who i'm like organizing a date with and unfortunately i'm tragically heterosexual so it's men who i'm dating they'll be like oh well just come over you know and i'm like no i haven't met you i don't know you i don't know if i can trust you and they're like of course you can blah blah blah
And I'm like, do you not understand that trust is something that people earn?You can't just declare that you're trustworthy, and have me automatically trust you.But so many cis men don't seem to understand that.
And again, I'll tell them, we have to meet in public, I want to hang out in public for a long time before I would ever consider going to your place or bringing you back to my place.
I have to know that I can feel safe and the number of men who just do not even consider that or care about that is astonishing.
It's interesting because I know that you and I, like, I think you approach dating much smarter than I have historically.But I mean, I really, I mean, you know, check the logs, but I do like I agree with you and especially
Anytime, I feel like when I've done that dating, I've never even really said that that's what I'm doing because I am afraid it will be interpreted as, you know, I'm afraid of the dynamic that introduces, even though it's like, of course, of course, you're thinking that.
And I feel like a lot of men cannot handle the idea that they are not inherently trusted and that like the world doesn't fucking revolve around them for sure.
And I mean, I think that what you're doing makes so much sense because it's like you're just normalizing like. There's no reason for me to trust you.You are a stranger.Yeah.And like, I have to move through the world differently.
And I wish that there was a more like a clearer understanding to that.But I've definitely been I won't even say guilty of that.
My instinct in the past has been to plan for that, but never say that that's what I'm doing because I'm afraid of how men react when their pride is injured, which can be scary.In my experience is often violent.Yeah.Yeah.Or cruel or whatever.
I mean, I think you get that quick scene with the guy from Jane the Virgin at the beginning of the movie.Oh, is that who that is?
I didn't watch much of that show. I for some reason was so into it.But but yeah, that like, he is the sort of, you know, archetypical bad date.And that this is like what Noah is used to.And I think that that ends up being very effective.
Because as I was like, watching the movie, I'm like, I would have fallen for this.I would have.
And I think that it's very, like you're saying, the red flags are very present and noted by her friend, but is subtle enough that she's like, it's probably not a big deal.Let's see what happened.Right.And like that sort of looped thinking of like,
well, if I am worried about this, then how am I ever going to have a relationship?Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.And feeling that sort of loop, I don't know.
And then when she gets to the house, I was soft triggered by, yeah, just going into someone's house and realizing you're like, oh, I don't know where I am.Or if I do know where I am, I'm not able to communicate easily enough.
And now the power dynamic is such that I have to basically admit I don't feel totally safe right now.Could you give me the tools to feel safer?
And sort of being at someone else's mercy, but having to maintain a, like, sexy, like, vibe while being like, okay, like, it's just... Hey, what's your Wi-Fi password?
Yeah, I mean, but like, I went on a weekend trip with someone who I had just recently started dating, you know, a couple of years ago, and there is like that moment where you're like, well, we don't know each other that well, right.
And, you know, and then the more time we're spending together and like, and I don't know if I like you very much. And you're like, well, how the fuck would I get out of here?I mean, it is just, yeah, I don't know.
Dating men, it is just like means that you frequently find yourself in what feels like hostage situations.And that is a lot of why this movie works.
Yeah.Oh, okay.Wait, I have so many thoughts.
One is that I think the fact that they meet under the circumstances of meeting in real life, quote unquote, versus meeting over a dating app might inform some of her feeling more at ease, even though they are perfect strangers and they don't know each other.
Because, I mean, to bring it back to our personal lives, you and I approach dating differently in the sense that I feel like you tend to date people who you have met in real life, either, you know, in some kind of comedy circumstances or, you know, different settings where... I've never done apps yet.
And I've pretty much only done dating apps.And that's how I've met like 95% of the people I've like briefly dated.
So there is this level of like, oh my god, I'm meeting up with a stranger who I've only corresponded with over text or maybe FaceTime, but like, they're so strange.
So that does mean that I feel like I have to be extra cautious and extra clear about my intentions because I totally get like,
being wary of setting boundaries because of how so many men respond to setting boundaries and feeling like their ego is bruised because they're not automatically trustworthy.
But like you said, I am trying to normalize the idea of men understanding that they are just inherently safer moving through the world than people of marginalized genders.
Which is like, it feels so weird at this late stage that like, you have to be like, have you ever thought about this?
You're like, and so, okay, there's a spectrum of what will happen if, first of all, a man just like a cis man saying, come over, we've never met in real life before, but let's have our first date on my couch.That is a red flag just in and of itself.
And I usually will just not talk to people after that.
But if we've already had some kind of rapport that feels fun and we were flirting and it seemed like a good conversation and stuff like that, I will be like, no, actually, I need to meet you in public.And then I'll explain why.
I'll be like, I need to make sure we vibe, number one, because if we're just sitting on your couch and I don't feel any romantic feelings.At best, that's awkward. And it's like, don't you want to know if you vibe with me?
Like, what if you're not into me?Like, this is a two-way street, first of all.And I was like, and that's just not safe for me.Like, I don't feel safe or comfortable doing that.We have to meet in a neutral public place that is familiar to me.
If they say, okay, totally get it.No worries.We'll go out for a drink or whatever, blah, blah, blah. fine, I'll proceed.Anyone who pushes back and I have had men push back on that to be like, Oh, then they act like I'm being difficult.
Like you saved yourself.Yeah, yeah.Like, you know, everything you need to know, which is that that person is scary, and doesn't understand boundaries and just like doesn't care about people being concerned for their own safety and all those things.
So right. There's that.But I'm wondering, like, back to her meeting him in this public place and... She's done, quote unquote, everything right.
And I feel like this movie makes it clear that even if you do everything right, that doesn't mean you're safe, which is a very, you know, negative message.It is.But it's true.
I mean, I guess, like, coming from the opposite place, and, I mean, I'm just, like, absolutely petrified of apps and just strangers in general.I think that's just like, hmm.
My social anxiety is such that it's always been a non-starter for me, so I've dated people that I met, meet in person, and, you know, as this movie demonstrates, not better, not better. True.
Different kind of bad, but I'm glad that there is, and I guess I wonder, because I haven't really experienced it, but that, like, when it's someone you haven't met in person before, it almost feels, like, maybe a little bit easier to set that boundary because you're like, it just makes sense.
Whereas, like, if it's someone I've met before, again, I mean, it's like I have a secret plan where it's like my boyfriend right now who, you know, so far so good, I don't think he's gonna steal my ass.No, I love the guy.
But but like for our first date, I was like, let's go on a walk while it's light out.Yeah, even though I knew that we got along and that we vibed and because you already knew him a little bit too, right? Right.
I mean, that's I think that that's like my level of paranoia with men that I was like, I will only really hang out with men that I am already pretty sure I'm not actively afraid of.Yeah, like, I just don't trust other people's vouching.
I just like, I just can't do it.And that's probably just like PTSD stuff from the past.But like, But yeah, so I just was like, even with a man that I have known in passing for like a year, still, it's like, we have to meet up when it's light.
I need to like understand what your general vibe is so that I can get out.Yeah, because it's like, but like, even then you're, it's just so fucked up.I don't know.That's why I, and I like that there's like almost this expanded metaphor of,
Of course he's done this before.Of course I'm not special.And that, I feel like, was very resonant for me too.It's like, it is very tempting to be like, there's something different about me.
And it's like, you know, occasionally, but it doesn't matter because the way a lot of cis men will treat you is the exact same way they've love bombed and taken in a lot of other people who sometimes look strikingly similar to you. It's very spooky.
It's scary.I was thinking about this experience I had that you know about, but I knew the guy I was dating had dated another woman who I'd met before and we look not dissimilar.
And when things ended in this very, like, horrible way, I reached out to her and we had a sort of, like, moment of, like, the play-by-play was exactly the fucking same.
But it's just, it is so many, like, little echoes of this movie just felt so familiar. And I like that even though, intersectionally, I don't think this movie does well at all, there is this, like, understood solidarity between most women.
And I think that's also authentic, too, as, like, there are ands in the world who are treated just as horribly as you are, but do not have solidarity with you at all.
for sure and i feel like you know seeing that gradient even though i would have liked more depth in the characters like i i appreciate that well going back to the like blame and shame component of the movie that noah feels like we said the red flags
are so subtle that they are missable at least until she gets to his house he won't give her the wi-fi password and then she's drugged obviously from that point on like the red flags are glaring but prior to that they are arguably not even red flags.
Like a lot of what he does wouldn't ping for someone as being like, you know, him not being on social media, that's something that some people just choose not to do.And it's not necessarily a red flag.
You know, there's different things that maybe could be interpreted as a red flag, but like, they're not.
I'm like, unless you're old, you should at least have controversially, you should have an Instagram account if you don't want me to think you're kind of fucking scary. I mean, even if you don't post it.But I get it.Just have it.
I do feel like there is a necessity to have someone be able to vouch for your existence.Otherwise, you're like, what do you have to hide?And the answer is often something. thing.
Right.But there are things that could be not even interpreted as a red flag, but she still blames herself and she thinks, you know, she says like, oh, I'm the only one who slept with him.Oh, my God.And she's disgusted with herself and humiliated.
And Penny, although she does sort of, like, pass judgment to be like, wait, you slept with him?I don't think any others of us did.But I'm not slut-shaming you.You know, so there's something to that.
But she then follows up, Penny does, by saying, like, it's not our fault.It's always their fault.And the idea of, like you said, you can do everything right or you can proceed with caution and you can...
just go about dating the way modern dating generally goes, and it can still end horribly, and it's because it's the fault of the perpetrators.
Yeah, I like, again, it's all a little bit undercooked, but the core message of it, and the fact that the empathy of the movie is clearly with Noah, and that it's done, I think, just in a way we don't see in horror very often, where it's like,
I don't think a cis man could have written this movie because you do have to have sort of the lived experience of, I have to protect myself.And thinking on the other end of that, how would I think if my friend told me this about this guy?
Like, I feel like that was all very, like, well thought out and considered and didn't feel like 10 years.I feel like sometimes, especially with it's like,
talking about like modern dating the technology's weirdly outdated which wasn't true here either which I feel like it's kind of hard to do so kudos kudos to yes because this this movie is written and directed by women white women Mimi Cave and Lauren Kahn and it's also produced by Adam McKay which I love to hear it I guess Lauren Kahn began as Adam McKay's assistant oh no kidding
yeah I mean I feel like we are seeing more horror movies from a more diverse array of directors and genre movies in general but like you know keep it coming keep it coming coming and that was my point you reminded me of what my point was which is that so many horror movies
from years past did so much to blame the women for getting killed.You know, the whole trope of like, if you're a woman and you have sex with someone, then you're gonna get murdered.
There's that, you know, there's the final girl trope, which this movie avoids because there are three final girls.
And I think this movie is, again, trying to avoid racialized tropes in horror, but I would say it is less successful at doing that.
I agree.Yeah. Paul, just real quickly, on one hand, you have him recognize the danger he's potentially in.He hears gunshots.He's in the middle of the woods.
And he acknowledges, like, I've seen this horror movie, and I know that I don't make it out alive.So I'm going to bounce.But also, is that kind of commentary on how, like,
men tend not to be helpful in these situations when it comes to like women's liberation.It felt unclear to me.
Like, yeah, I thought the idea of it was interesting, but it kind of just felt like a weird joke.
Well, why make him even drive the whole way up there if narratively, he's not going to do anything and he's just going to turn right back around?
That was the thing I was curious about too.
Yeah, especially because like I would be curious what got cut from this movie because it did feel like there are certain little plot holes that probably could have been fixed by another scene that might have existed at some point.
Yeah, because Paul like has not that he's like a prominent character, but he does have more screen time than a character who randomly bails would have.Like, you're just like, well, then what was the point?
I mean, I guess, you know, his function is to connect Molly back to Noah, again, a Black character servicing, ultimately servicing the white characters.
Yeah, but then at the end, it's sort of like his whole character ends in this kind of confusing joke.
It's also implied that he's only helping Molly because he thinks he has an opportunity to have sex with her again, or to, like, reignite their...
Which is like a man to do.And I appreciated that, like, Noah and Molly at different points use their wiles to get what they need from who they need it from.
Where it's, like, pretty clear from just how Noah and Molly talk about Paul that Molly's, like, not interested.And I think kind of ghosted him when they dated.Seems like it, yeah. So it's not like she's all of a sudden interested in him again.
I think she possibly knows that this is his personality and wants to, you know, keep him involved and enticed.But again, you would think with Molly and with all of these characters, does Molly not have a second friend to tell?
like, someone that you would trust more than someone you ghosted last year.Like, it just, I get it, it's like a small cast and it's movie logic, but it just felt like another, it just, the smallness of these women's world, it just kind of bizarre.
That's why I think it would have been interesting if, like, Molly is dating a woman.Right.And she's the person who helps Molly on this quest. and we see what that dynamic looks like.
Not to say that, like, women dating women is perfect in sunshine and butterflies and amazing and, like, that contrasted with women dating men, but, like, that would have been an interesting dynamic to explore, to see how those interactions are different or to just see what that looks like.
And also feels like, I mean, on Noah's part, like, if Noah's always hanging out with a couple, that would sort of explain why she might be dating more.
Which, because I mean, I've been the friend of a couple and it's like, if the couple is awesome, it's awesome.
But sometimes, some days you're like, wow, I am really the third wheel, aren't I?No one's kissing me.This stinks.That's why I need to find myself a thruple to begin.Exactly.
Yeah, I think that's all I really had for this movie.I think it's good.I like it.It passes the Bechdel test for sure.
It does.Noah and Molly, they do talk a lot about Steve and they talk about dating men in general.But I think that if you're going to not pass the Bechdel test, a great way to do it is to comment on how dating men is difficult and awful.
And that they, like, are protecting each other.Yeah.Yeah.Like, they're talking about protecting each other from men.Mm-hmm.Which I feel like spiritually passes.Or mistrusting men fundamentally.
Yeah.Right.And then Noah and Penny talk about their situation.They do.Which they're only in this situation because of a man.
But if, you know... I mean, I feel comfortable saying this movie pretty handily passes. Technically, and on vibes.But what about the most important metric of all time?Can you tell that I have to pee really bad because I started talking so fast?
So what do you think in regards to the nipple scale?Will we rate the nipples, zero to five nipples, examining it through an intersectional feminist lens?I'm going to give the movie... Yes. three nipples.
Yeah, I mean, you could look at this whole movie is like the meat eating of women as a kind of allegory or metaphor for just like the objectification and exploitation of women's bodies in society.And that's an interesting metaphor.
And the fact that the women triumph at the end, and they stand in solidarity with each other and do the opposite of what Anne does, which, you know, her thing is she becomes part of the problem. And it doesn't save her because it never does.Right.
And she gets brutally bashed over the head with a shovel.Yikes.And so, right.So there's these cool things happening.
The fact that the movie, even though the character blames herself, the movie is not blaming her for not, you know, seeing that she was being seduced by a cannibal who was planning to sell her meat. So I think there's a lot of cool stuff going on.
There are some things that I feel like were mishandled, especially in regards to casting choices and the characters who are people of color servicing the white characters and all that stuff.So three nipples.
I will give one to Jojo T. Gibbs, who plays Molly.I will give one to Andrea Bang, who plays Penny.And I'll give my final nipple to Sami Ekbari, who we don't see on screen, but she's the character who leaves the note in the magazine.
Yes, I am going to meet you at three.I think that this movie leaves something to be desired in terms of intersectionality.
I feel like there's a lot of surface-y stuff where there is a diverse cast and there is queer characters, but it still is ultimately a white hetero story and these are the characters that are ultimately being serviced by the plot.
However, when it comes to contemporary dating commentary, it's awesome.I think it works super well.The performances are really good.
The writing is really specific in a way that I'm not used to seeing in horror because there's not enough women that get to take big swings in horror.
The highs are high, the lows are frustrating, but I am excited to see more, particularly from Mimi Cave.So I'll go three nipples.
I will give one to Mimi Cave, I will give one to Jojo Gibbs, and I will give the final one to, oh my goodness, who played Penny?I shut my tab. Fuck!Oh, Andrea Bang.Andrea Bang.And yeah, congratulations to Sebastian Stan for me recognizing him now.
Yes, yes, yes, yes.Also, quick shout out.Sorry, I know I have to pee, but I just want to say the moment of foreshadowing when Noah and Steve go back to her place for the first time, and she's like, ooh, can I get you anything to drink or eat?
And he says, no, just you, because he's going to eat her.
Also, just a classic cringe man thing to say.Yeah.No, I just want you, babe.I just want you to feel good.I'm like, no, you don't.Anyways, I'm a fucking liar.And with that, and that's a fresh movie. You can follow us everywhere.
You can follow us on Instagram at Bechtelcast.You can follow us on Twitter at Bechtelcast.And you can subscribe to, and in fact, you should subscribe to our Patreon, aka Matreon.
Patreon.com slash Bechtelcast, $5 a month, gets you two bonus episodes every damn month.How nice is that?
You know what else is nice is the fact that I'm headlining two shows in Boston on November, oh gosh, is it 16th?So if you live in Boston and you want to see me do stand up, go to my website, caitlanderonte.com, and the links will be there for that.
I just wanted to plug that real quick.
Now that's what I call nice and if you want to see me live in person in Los Angeles, I'm workshopping my new show at The Lyric and you can check it out on November 20th and December 4th. And the other one's sold out.Sorry.
And you can also get our merch at teapopbug.com slash The Bechdel Cast.Holiday's coming up, babe.Could be fun.Could be.And with that, I have to go chop off my own ass and eat it for lunch.Me too.OK, bye.
Bye. The Bechtelcast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by Caitlin Durante and Jamie Loftus, produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited by Mo Laborde.Our theme song was composed by Mike Kaplan, with vocals by Katherine Voskresensky.
Our logo and merch is designed by Jamie Loftus.And a special thanks to Aristotle Acevedo.For more information about the podcast, please visit linktree slash Bechtelcast.
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