Hello and welcome to How to Win the Lottery, season 10, Vermont module, third and final book.And Shreds, I'm Joey Lundaski, that's Shreds.Shreds, I realized this is the fourth, basically, including the interrupts, of the fourth book in this module.
We have not once yet said, suck shit, Sufjan Stevens.Oh, yeah.It's a tradition, unlike any other. We did not do it in the intro.We didn't do it in the first one.We did it in the second one.
I mean, we'll make up for this.
Talking about with Flee by Evan Dara, but suck shit.
Yeah.Sufjan Stevens, suck shit.
He just put out or he's putting out a kid's album with.
I don't give a fuck about it.Wow.That's a weird that's a weird collab.
It was.And someone who I know through yoga was very excited.I'm just like.
I thought you said Yoko for a second.
Yoko.Yeah, I'm friends with Yoko.There's only one Yoko, right?
No, the, the female lead in, uh, in Love Exposure is named Yoko.
The actor or the character?Character.Do you think named after?
No, I think it's a Japanese name.
Oh, okay.Okay.Okay.Off to a good start here.Shreds, are you ready for some Vermont facts?Oh.
All right.We're recording earlier in the day than we have in a while.Feels different, but it feels good.
Vermont facts.OK, so here we did the first and did some generic things.Second one was famous people.This is just like.Things I'm like that a kid learns the book about Vermont.OK, state bird hermit thrush.OK, state cold water fish.Wow.
Brook trout, seat warm water fish, walleye pike.They have a cold water fish and a warm water fish.
Seat insect.You have any guesses?
Honey bee.Ugh.Seat rocks are marble, granite, slate.
Isn't it the granite state or something like that?
I think that's New Hampshire.That's New Hampshire.
State gym?So get off New Hampshire's dick, Vermont.What's going on here?
They're like, no, we have those too.We have those too.
Yeah.Yeah.You don't get to claim it just because you named it first.
Also, there's New Hampshire's state motto is live free or die, which feels pretty, as opposed to... Uh-huh.That's aggressive.What's Vermont's?We did this not that long ago.
Yeah, you tell me what it is.
Oh, freedom and unity.Freedom.
That's one of the facts for this episode.Less aggressive.Yeah.More about unity.
State gem, grossular garnet.
State animal.Guess what kind of, what family the state animal's in.It's a wolf.It's a horse.The Morgan horse.State sports.There's two of them.Hockey?No. lacrosse?No, you were closer than your first guest in a way.Closer with hockey?Field hockey?
You're getting farther away.The wrong element of hockey.
The right element, but the wrong sport.
Skiing.And?Just skiing?Skiing.Just skiing.
Similar?The shooting part?
No, very similar. to skiing, but cooler skating.No, like too similar.No, you're you're you're too far away.Skiing, snowboarding, snowboarding, state tree, sugar maple.
Yeah, you got to be the sugar maple, right?
State fruit and state pie.Both the apple.Apple is the fruit.Apple pie is the pie.Vermont law mandating apple.Seems weird.I did not read this before I got into it with this is from the Vermont website, like the state website.
With Vermont law mandating apple pie be served with cheddar cheese, ice cream, or milk, if possible.It's like, you must, if you're able to.
Yeah.That's, that's some like a lily livered, like half.You can't mandate and be like, if possible.Yeah.Mandated.
We recommend.Yeah.We suggest it would be nice to have.
Uh, what's your, like, in-state rankings?Where do you put Vermont?Is it pretty high up there?In terms of?States that you love.
I've never been.Oh.But I feel like the whole New England, like, the landscape, the, how's they talk about in this book, that sweet, sweet, fresh air?
I think it's the best of, of New England.
Hmm.I have not done Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine, which I feel like most of, like, what you would, I need to do those before I can rank these.
Yeah.So you're just in Massachusetts and Connecticut.
Yeah.What about you?You think number one?
I like Vermont a lot.Yeah.Number one of New England.Yeah.
Is it in your top five states?Top ten states?
Yeah.No, probably top five.
Wow.Have any of the other states we've covered for modules been in the top five?
Is New Jersey in your top five?
I love New Jersey.Me too.
Have you ever been to Anderberg, Vermont, Eberg?
No, is it real?It's not real.I don't think it's real.Yeah, there's no way.There's no way.But it feels like Burlington though.It feels like they're, cause remember Burlington was 45,000 and it's the biggest, it's the biggest city in Vermont.
It's 45,000 people, right?
Yes, wow, yeah.And this book starts with them at somewhere around 38, 39,000.So I think it's meant to be a parallel of the biggest cities in Vermont.It's also a college town.
Yeah, which is, I guess, the canary in the coal mine of economic collapse for this town.Among other things, the other thing is the introduction of a big box store, which
Drives prices so low that no one can compete with it to the point where all the people in the text are like I can't believe that you can get something here for like a dollar fit that that's how they can't be making money on this Which is what those stores do.
Yep.They lower their prices until the competition leaves and then they raise prices and then and then
I think I've talked, I think I've mentioned on here that the town I grew up in, a Walmart moved in, closed all the mom and pop shops and then the Walmart closed.
Yeah.Well, that's what happens in this book too.
And so it's just like, what do you, what do you, I mean, just Amazon.Like I think that they talk about Amazon or just like buying things online or whatever, but it's like, that's crazy.
Yeah.So can you, um, well, I'll talk, I'll talk a little bit about what this book is about.
Cause what it's about is 12 guys in a fantasy baseball league trying to make a decision about something. I'm just like I would it's a joke, but it feels like a lot of this is about an inability to actually make a decision about anything Oh, okay.
Yeah, I was gonna much in a much broader way a town dying.Yeah, it's about a town that it That its population is slowly bleeding away.Yeah, and it's told or fleeing aesthetically through a largely decontextualized snatches of conversations.
And then this attempt by Carol and Rick and Ian to create a kind of temp agency.
Yep.Which seems impossible to do, but it seems somewhat successful.
The Carol, Ian, and Rick stuff is told essentially in the manner of a traditional novel.Yep.And the other stuff is told entirely through, not entirely, but mostly through unattributed dialogue.
That is like gossip and rumors about the town.
And people talking over each other.
and people talking over each other.And you don't even know if they're in the same room and if we're just like moving from place to place.
But a lot of it does feel like you're in like a town hall meeting or something and it's just like people yelling.
Yeah.And, and so you get a lot of half stories.You don't really know what's true.It's all, it's like about rumor.And there's, um, an interesting thing.I think he writes dialogue similar to how David Foster Wallace writes dialogue.
It's not, the dialogue is not remotely naturalistic.Um, but it has a lot of like idiosyncrasies to it to make it seem naturalistic.
I will say one thing this book does, and I think there's another book, and I don't remember what it was that I think had did this similar.Evandari uses italics to emphasize stressing on like certain syllables, like in a way that like feels so real.
Yeah.There's one, there's one.
Not italics as an entire word, but like a couple of letters, like a syllable in a word to like, you can hear the way that that word is spoken, even though you're just reading it.
Yeah, there's one line between, I think it's Carol and Marcus at the end, where Carol says something like, or it might be between Carol and Rick, where Carol says something like, do you want to go?And go is italicized.
And then the next line she says, where do you want to go to?And to is italicized.And she's like, wow, he's really like manipulating the way that we're hearing these words.And you see that a lot with,
Playwrights like Edward Albee does that and when you read Edward Albee's dialogue, there's a lot of stuff that's italicized actors I think generally don't like that they want to do it because they don't they don't like being given line reads by people because they're they want to pretend like they're artists as well and like I
know, bring whatever they can bring to the table.But like, it's interesting when you're reading and you hear it in your head, it's like, oh, Evan Dar is giving you a line read for this that, that maybe you wouldn't otherwise understand.
It helped.I mean, I don't, I don't mind that.I think it actually, it, I don't know if I want to say it helped, but like it, it was very clear to me in a way that I appreciate it.
It was just like, oh, I know how they're saying the what, like what they're trying to get from it, where they're trying to go with it, whatever.
What do you think of the method at which this is delivered?
What do you think of all the- Well, when the font changed the first time, I was kind of blown away, in a way.
Because I just didn't expect that.And I was like, is this like a mistake?Because I know that these are, it's somewhat self-published, right?Because it's like- Yeah, yeah.The copy that I have is like printed in July, 2024.
Like, it's just like, it's- I would say that it is self-published.When I bought the book, he like printed a copy.And also the thing is like, we don't know who Evandar is.
Nobody knows who Evandar is.Which is very cool.It's a mystery.
Never been interviewed never in photographed So it's like he gets an order on it because also his site link just links to Amazon like he's not even selling the book himself It's just going it's fulfillment through Amazon or whatever.
Yeah print on demand in North Haven, Connecticut.
John Schwarzfeld.It is the same thing Simpsons guy.Yeah.All of his books are just like totally like his own.He's got like 15, 20 novels and they're all just like print on demand.
You can just buy a John Schwarzweiler book and they'll be printed for you and shipped to you.
Well, I told you off Mike, but recapping something you asked me to do or you mentioned to me on Mike months ago, I finally watched the joint John Schwarzweiler Pistapete pilot.
Very funny. Yeah, he's the funniest guy.It's like him and Jack Handy are like two of the funniest guys.
Like when Pistol Pete comes into town and then he rides away on a horse and the horse just like crashes through like a glass window in like a saloon or something.And he just walks out and the guy's like, don't know how to ride a horse, do you?
Just like the dumbest like throwaway.
Um, he should be a household name, but he's not because we don't revere writers in America.
So when the font changed for the first time, I thought it was a mistake, but then I realized it was a separate story running in parallel.And I was like, Oh, this is a very interesting, clear way to delineate between two things.
Instead of being like one chapter, one chapter, one chapter, like, you know, in the Markley book from last module, like what, like there's other things where it's like every chapter or every break is told by a different character.
This is just like within a chapter there's back and forth a dozen times.
Okay, so before it shifts to Carol and Rick, where you get the font that's like, not Times New Roman.I forget what font it is.
Before you get to that, and it is just like you are at the town hall meeting and they're talking about solar power and how to like, like I think Rick has like developed photovoltaic technology to like help the university or whatever.
And it is just jumping from person to person with this interrupted stuff.And that goes on for quite a long time.And you think maybe like, this is what the book is. How did you feel about that?Were you?
Cause I like dialogue.I think that like dialogue driven text is very propulsive and easy to read.And there is the book by Dave Eggers.
Your father's, which is a hundred percent dialogue and just two guys talking.And it's like, that is like compelling and you can blow through it.And like, it was very cool.So like, I don't like, I was kind of excited about it.
And then like it goes away from it.I was like, okay, it's fine.But like, I would not think it's a bad thing.I think I would be, I was excited by the possibility of that.
Yeah.When we started, I had read this book before, but when we started reading this book, I think I texted you.I definitely texted Meg to say like, I feel like I'm like kind of coming home with this book.
Cause we've been away from the books that I are kind of like.Cause you had read this before.Yeah.These, we've been away from books that are like aesthetically in my wheelhouse for like a little bit.
And so this was like breath of fresh air for me, a real like. Um, even though it's a flawed book, it's not, it's not a perfect book.It's not like all that enjoyable really.Right.
I think there's some, I think, I think that the town hall meeting is funny in a way that it's just like, Oh, I know what, what's going on.Like if I get the sense of like,
Again, the fantasy baseball joke, it just like, you want it, like, it seems like a simple thing or simple enough thing, and then everyone has an opinion that, like, has nothing to do with the person's next thing of opinion.
Like, they all have to be, like, equally merited or weighted or whatever.
And there's a thing that happens later on in the text that really, like, it reminded me a lot of the Stephen Markley book, too, actually, because there's a part where it's like, well, what if we offer tax incentives for people to move back into town?
And then a person really angrily responds, well, then you're just fucking the people who decided to stay in town.What, you don't get a tax break for being a loyal citizen?
And the other person's just like, well, okay, but giving tax breaks to people who stuck around is not gonna bring more people.
So then somebody's like, well, what if we give a tax break to people who move back and then even lower taxes to people who stay here?It's just like, well, then where's all the money coming from?It's just like, yeah.
And so it's just these people, like nobody is willing to take the hit.
Well, everyone's just looking out for themselves.
Yeah.And people are like, rather than wanting to fix things, they want to be angry about things and they want to be in denial of the fix.
They want to be the person that says, here's why that won't work, rather than being a person that will like try to make something work.
It just feels like the fantasy baseball league over and over again.Um, I also think that the book is nice in that it's sick.
It cycles back around that it sort of ends where it begins, but we don't realize there's like quote unquote, like an outsider in the midst where somebody who had moved in basically, I don't think
gentrified is the right word but essentially like some new money moving into this town like oh I just had to get out of the city man like the fresh air up here is so good like it's so cheap and blah blah blah and like we find that this guy is at the town hall meeting and just kind of like trying to be a part of the community or something but like there's something where they're like we don't want these new like there's something about like we want things the way they were
without realizing that there's new people already among them.
Well, the novel ends in somewhat of an upbeat thing in that we get the first, so every chapter heading with the exception of one.What are those numbers?That's the population of the town.Oh my God, Joey, that's so huge.
It goes from, do you have the book with you?Hold on.Yeah.
Again, not explicitly laid out.
Yeah.Well, there's also X. So no, that's the, that's the thing that changed.
So it goes from like the, the, the population starts at 38,800.It goes down like 21,000 or something. Yeah.And then as we go, like the next one is 38,000 again.And then, and then it drops to 36,000 and then to 35,000 and then 34,000.
Oh, can I tell you something weird?What?I'll double check something at home.What?I think your, your book, I think has more chapter breaks than mine does.
Really?Yeah.Well, there's like the Marcus thing is like 40 pages long.
I think there's a possibility that he edited it and I have an older version of the book.
Does yours say population number or just a number number?
No, it just says 39,000.This is first edition, first printing, 2013. I mean, like that's- Same amount of pages.So I'm probably wrong.I'm probably just misremembering.But yeah, so you have this steady decline in population that goes from- 38, 39.
All the way to 300.Yeah.So there's only 300 people living in town.And then you have the Marcus chapter.
And then the next chapter after that- And that's just this X, which maybe, it can't be 10.
And then the next chapter, I guess it can be 10.
But like, do you think 10 people live in a town?
Yeah, well, it's a table.It's not like- Yeah. And then the next chapter is back up to 800.So you have this like slowly growing graph, right?After that, with hopes that the next chapter would have been 12,000.
And so you're asked, as kind of we're all asked constantly, like one of the more difficult questions of capitalism is about gentrification because it's like, obviously you want to like, you want that area to become more economically viable.
You want people to be able to live there, and you want there to be an infrastructure, and you want all that.
But you also don't want it to be... You don't want to kick out the existing inhabitants.
But if there's only 10 people there... If there's only 10 people there, then what does gentrifying even mean?
Right.Because, like, Marcus is, like, wandering around.Like, it seems like it's, like, a post-apocalyptic, like, wasteland where he's, like, seeing lights go on and off.
I thought, in the Marcus chapter, I thought, that's Joey.
Marcus.Why?I don't know.Because he's like, as as I've known you, there's been like, you hit a you hit a point and then you were became dedicated to self betterment.
And so, and so Marcus being like, being like the, where he's like, I walk twice a day and do my constitutionals, my reconstitutionals.I do these 45 pushups every morning and I don't need to do more than 45 pushups.
Cause it takes away from the time that I need to devote to other things.
Yeah.So I was like, oh, this feels, this guy feels like Joey.
Like that, that feels fair because you read them just like, oh, this is not a likable character.So when you say it's like me, I just like, ooh.
And then you're, and then you're going to assume run for mayor of this town eventually.
Chief enthusiasm officer.
Does this book references A-Rod?Speaking of when does it reference age 99?They're just like, I think they're watching TV.They're like, go, A-Rod, go or something like that.
I'm just like, why would why would people in Vermont be rooting for A-Rod?
Wow.Whoa.And now we're rounding second and gaining speed and tearing at it, looking at his fist, his arms.Look at those legs, pumping head tucked in to slice the wind, running like a full tilt madman, a piston machine.
And look, ha, still working his chew shit.He and the ball is now running third and go, A-Rod, go. Maybe it's someone who grew up around Red Sox fans was like, I don't like the Reds because he was a Yankees at that time.
So yeah, of course.There's also some really authoritarian, scary stuff in this book about like.Police raids on on. squatters houses.
Uh, we're like, Ian is staying in a house and then they, they like pull him out of it.And then when they imprisoned him later, they put him back in that house that he had been squatting in.
Cause they've like appropriated it for their like fascist, uh, as like a fascist prison where they can like put in there and question him.And he's just like, I know these walls.I know this house.
This is where I was sleeping before you arrested me and took me out of it. What about what about Carol and Rick?
Well, there's something speaking of like, you know overreach or whatever They are talking about like so Rick also flees he goes to get another job somewhere in Carlton denial and he she's just like no we're still together like it just doesn't matter and Clearly not probably not the case but they talk about at one point like having a baby because it's a thing that the government can't take away and I'm just like mmm government to take that away like there's
Like, it's just, I guess it's sort of flawed logic, but like they have such pure intentions.And then I guess he realizes, Ooh, this might not actually work.Or I might not be the one to do this or this needs to happen, but it's not me or something.
Yeah.Rick seems to be like the kind of guy that is, um, Like he's always screwing up.Like he has big ideas.Like how your town might, or like one of your dad's friends might be like a wacky inventor or something and has ideas on how to fix things.
But you're just like, yeah, that'll never happen, buddy.
And Carol seems to be like trying to get that together.And this crisis provides an opportunity for them to maybe create something together, but it doesn't really work.
My favorite detail of their scene was that the computers they finally get are running, they're HP TouchSmarts running Windows Vista.And I was like, that's the most 2009-ass bullshit.
Well, so 2009 is an important time to put this book because of the, because why?
Well, economic crash, doesn't he?Economic crash.
which threw everything into upheaval.
So like, I think like I was saying to you before I started recording, like maybe a quarter of the way through the book, I'm like, I have a sense of like what they like, what this is about, but I don't know what this is about, if that makes sense.
I'm just like, I know what's happening, but I also don't know.Because again, like you're saying, does not explicitly say much about anything.Just like you're hearing characters talk about stuff.
Yeah.I haven't, I, right before the recording, I said, Evan Dara, like specifically does not give a fuck if you understand his book.It does not matter to him at all, I don't think.
And so I Googled like, cause the back of the book has no writeup.It just says something's always going on.And then even on Goodreads, like there's just like two quotes.Like there's not even like a description on there.
And I, I looked somewhere else and just like, oh, this is kind of like about 2008, the economic crisis crash.
Yeah.It's a, it's, yeah, it's a guy.
So I was like, okay, like that.So it's not explicitly, it's not like, oh, like I lost my stock money because you know, somebody fought, whatever.It's not like that, but it's like in a time where nobody has money, a town that's dying, what's going on?
Yeah.And, and sort of how that can affect everybody, not just people who have stocks, how like, you know, if you live in a college town, the destruction of a college can sort of, there's a ripple effect there because, because if you have a college,
you have 30,000 more people living in that town, that's 10,000 more people going to restaurants on weekends and bars and buying gasoline and whatever, all of the things that you might do in your college town.So if like,
college shuts down that's the equivalent of like when you when you live in a like a coal town and coal mine shuts right and then all of a sudden it's like nobody has jobs I mean if there's nothing to support the economy there is no economy yeah if there's no one to sell anything to you you're you know and college kids keep money in like college kids spend money right it's not like they're not like
Wall Street bankers, uh, like they get money and they put it in the bank, right?
They might go out to bars or whatever, but like college kids, they have a dollar and they keep that dollar local because that's, they're going out with friends and they're so, so like once you eliminate that, um, it's a, uh, domino effect.
And then all of a sudden it's like none of the businesses can function.And then the introduction of the big box store means that like, which is independent, but also just worsens things.Yeah.
I mean, since 2009, it's not like we've recovered from that.We've just like sort of adjusted to life to how life became.
Well, I was thinking about, um, if the same kind of book or if this could also just be paralleled to COVID closures, nobody ever there or, you know, either beginning that or not even like,
Like there's something like in the media business, like all these companies or big tech laying off tens of thousands of employees.It's like, we have no money.It's like, you have money and it's just everybody else is doing it.
So you're cutting costs or like the looming AI going to take jobs or whatever.Like this just like, this is times it doesn't eat for a few specific details, but basically could be any time something drastic happens and people need to adjust.
Yeah.I think, I think it works as a COVID book for sure.It's not like, Also, vaccines cause autism.
Oh, boy.Let's get back to that in a second.What I was going to say was that I don't think it is like it's depressing, but it doesn't feel as depressing as other things we have read.
Well, partially because there's a bounce back at the end.Right.Right.
Because it's.And also, I think you're you're most you're largely from the perspective of people who are optimistic and trying to help.
Yeah, and you have, it might not be as depressing because you have a bird's eye view of thousands of people whose individual snatches of conversation you understand, but you don't understand who they are as a people.
Which is sort of how we, when we look at a town like, you know, Flint, Michigan, for example, it's like we go, oh, that's a tragedy.
But they've had a real, there's been a real crisis of humanizing that place instead of having people look at it as a statistic.
Well, yeah, there is the thing like a million deaths, a statistic or one's a tragedy and millions of statistic, right?It's just like even if nobody in town has jobs like, oh, that's sad.
But if like we follow one dad who loses his job and can't afford to support his girlfriend and their young kid or whatever, or like a mom and pop store closes because of fairly right.
Walmart, you I mean, you see this all that you I used to see on Facebook years ago.Probably you still do.But there will be like, um, 13 year old child raises $10,000 as lemonade stand to pay for his daughter.His, his sister's kidney surgery.
And everyone's like, what a story of human triumph.That town came together to help that little boy.And it's like, that town should not have to come together to help that little boy.
He should be saved by like this mass system that is totally capable of us having.So yes, like this book is about systemic failure.
And because it's a book about systemic failure, it looks at it as a system rather than as a handful of human stories, which like removes a lot of the pathos from it, right?Even if you can look at it as like, you know,
book that's making a logical argument it doesn't feel like it's making an argument because you don't there's not really any points where you're like oh shit like that's really sad right except for the stuff about his autistic son
Well, so there is, you know, Carol, who we all book long have thought of as like this hero, right?
And she visits Marcus at the end and talking about autism in children and siblings and so on and so forth.And she's like, yeah, there's no genetic link to it.It's like 6% of, you know, only 6% of autistic people have an autistic kid or whatever.
And it's probably more likely because of vaccines and like us trying to protect ourselves.I'm just like, hold on, what?
And you know, you were saying before that we've said this a lot, that just because there's a character in the book who says this does not mean the author believes this in any way.
But you also said it's weird that it's coming out of the mouth of someone who we had been rooting for and have been like a hero and a protagonist.
And there's no, like, there's no pushback on it at all.It's not like anyone around is like, like, uh, Marcus isn't just like, that's bullshit or anything of that.
Well, it seems like Marcus also does not really want Carol to be there.
Yeah, he's not interested in that conversation.He's not interested in hearing whose fault it is that his kid has autism.He's not interested in.But I think maybe what Evan Dara is interested in.
is the metaphor, is that line, that like, the thing we do to try to protect us is the thing that causes significant problems.
And even if it does protect most of us, there's gonna be a percentage of people that the thing that we do to protect us hurts.And then she says something along the lines of like, It's not your kid, like society is autistic.
Society has a problem with verbal communication.Society has a problem with recognizing emotions in people.And it's like, this is a powerful metaphor, but it's a metaphor that doesn't hold up because it's just not true.Yeah. And like, it would work.
It would work beautifully if it were true that vaccines caused autism, but they don't.So.
It's just the ravings of someone who read something online once or read a headline online and just like, yeah, that seems right.
Which I give Evan Dar a more credit.I think Evan Dar is clearly a very intelligent person.I think sometimes intelligent people think fucking crazy things.So.Yeah.I don't know.
But yeah, that was, it's so funny because that happens with like 10 pages left in the book.And when I saw it, I was just like, oh, Wow.Yeah.
And I don't know if that in 2013 or whenever this book came out, I don't remember if that was as hot button of an issue or if that was something that people were like.
Yeah.I also like have no sense of time before COVID just like when things were, I'm just like, I don't know, it was before, like Jenny McCarthy was out talking about it or whatever, but like that could have been 2008 or 2013 or 2018 or whatever.
I feel like we all, I feel like I was fairly certain that autism was not caused by vaccines ever.I feel like the first time someone said that to me.
Well, you're also a well-read, understood, intelligent person.
But what I'm saying is I think Evandor is, too.There's no way that he's not.
So I don't know, I don't want to make excuses for him, but it's a weird thing.It's a, it's a, it's a curve ball in the book, especially because that metaphor is not present throughout.It's present.
It's like, it's hand grenaded into the last 10 pages of the book, 15 pages, right?Yeah.
So my only other question to you, this is a book or a question you have asked.We've asked each other in previous modules, And I think I have an answer.Does this book feel Vermont?
I think it does.You do.I do.Yeah.Do you think it feels like it feels like it could be anywhere?
I think it feels like small town America, but I think it feels small town America in a way that like radio free Vermont kind of was too.It's like, there's a certain kind of.
community and ethic and understanding and whatever where it's like these are like it's this it's not like it could be like New York City, but I don't think it's inherently Vermont.
I think it could also be like Fargo, Mississippi or North Dakota or whatever.Yeah.
He's got um, I think there is value like we were saying about like a specific the the New World the Louisiana module where it's like none of these really feel Except for like when they're in New Orleans, they don't really necessarily feel Louisiana, but they feel South or
Like I think there is value in like regional literature or something that's not just like a New York or LA story.
Um, I think all the King's men was Louisiana as hell.
Sure.I'm just saying that as an example, like there are, there are ones like that one's about like literally about like running for political, running for office in Louisiana.
But like other things, you want to read the eggs email or do you have anything else to say?
Uh, no, no, no.I, but, but interesting thing is that egg is emailing from Vermont where she is currently on vacation.
Meg's reaction to Flea.If you want to email in lottery at cage club, tell me about any book, this or otherwise.
She also texted me to say, this is not my best email.
So I ended up liking Flea.Egg.She's a trooper though.She sure is.I ended up liking Flea more than I was expecting to.I told Shreds, that's you.
And it's a shame that this couldn't have been paired with Grapes of Wrath.She's spoiling upcoming things that we have not announced in this podcast yet. Next week you'll hear a new theme that we're doing.
I told you it was a shame that we couldn't have paired this with Grapes of Wrath on the Great American Novel module, while the concept of needing to leave the place you're in, written both in the perspective of the general public and the specific story of a single family, this novel felt like an homage in a way to that novel.
I also felt like it picked up on some David Foster Wallace inspiration.You mentioned him earlier.I didn't make a note of it, but I got a DFW vibe.
Yeah, I think mostly in this, like the sort of idiosyncratic syntax used within dialogue and sort of like people who are making references that are beyond the capacity of, of conversational banter.
Uh, it's like, it's like you, you as a writer are a smart guy and it's not super easy for you to write dumb character.
Well, I think, I think it's more like you're writing the banter of the world that you want to live in rather than I think a fun module would be a dummy module, where it focuses on writing dumb characters, which is a notoriously difficult thing to do.
Cause then like, I mean, I don't know about books, but like you see like a movie, like the next guy.So it's like, Oh, these are just like lovable idiots.So like, it's great.
But like, you see that in the wrong hands, you're like, Ooh, I was also reading something recently about, um, I don't know if it was just something that someone posted on Twitter or whatever.
it was about like how when people write geniuses, those geniuses are always very, very strange.They always seem like not like the actual smart people that you know in the real world.And that's because writers generally aren't geniuses.
So like, and you can't really, it's very difficult to write someone- Because a genius has better, more important things to do with their time than write literature?
Well, no, it's also, I think it's just that- You burnt literature.I think it's just that people have a hard time, it's very difficult to write about someone smarter than you are.
Oh, sure.But it's also hard to write about someone who's dumber than you are, too.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.So you end up with a medium.And that's why you have a lot of books about kid geniuses, because it's like- It's like, he's like my intelligence, but he's 12.Yeah, exactly.
Ed writes, I really liked the visual structure of the novel.I liked that Wallace's blog post was the same font, but a slightly different format than a Rick and Carol story.
I like that there was a gratuitous use of hyphens and dashes when we as readers were simply overhearing the different snippets of conversations throughout the town.Not only that.
Well, Ed, Meg is really Emily Dickinson-pilled, so.
Emily Dickinson uses hyphens and dashes to, to like heighten the, um, Not only the sort of visual language of her poetry, but also the... like accentuate emotional highs and that is what the egg wrote her thesis on for grad school.On punctuation?
In Emily Dickinson specifically.Wow.So like the hyphen, her being Emily Dickinson build.
She's like ooh these horizontal lines.
Well it really, I think it probably does skew her toward like looking at hyphens and things like that in a way that is like almost Pavlovian.Sure.
Not only that, but there were certain instances where a word was spelled incorrectly.Wave instead of wave and Lyme disease instead of Lyme disease.This always occurred when a character was speaking.
I kind of assumed, maybe wrongly so, that that just might have been a typo.But maybe not.
I don't know.I don't think so.
This was likely a conscious choice, which adds flavor to the town.This is supported by Marcus's annoyance about people using language incorrectly on tree graffiti.Shows that Darr is thinking about stuff like that.
I also liked when the novel took a sharp turn into quote, typical novel and really let itself meander in Marcus's chapter.In addition, I looked it up.
There's no town of Anderberg, Vermont, but like there was a town name because shortened version A-burg was a cute little on the nose reference.This could have been quote, any burg or town.
Curious whether you found whether or not you found the ending of the novel positive or not.I did.I liked it.It seemed like the town was starting to get revitalized again, but I did need to rush to finish.
So I may have, or probably missed something all in all a good novel.I'm glad I read.
No, I think, I think it's a positive ending.
Although, although we should be wary of Marcus.
Yeah. I mean, Marcus is like the character you explicitly said is me.
Yeah, yeah.He's like evil in the making.Just like you.Wow.Do we have any other business to settle here next?
This is the end of the Vermont module.I think I want to wrap up about Vermont.How do you rank this compared to our other states we have so far done?Louisiana, Delaware.Kentucky.
And Louisiana is my favorite still.
Those are three strong book.I mean, I didn't, I didn't love all three, but those are three strong books.
I think all the King's men is the best of the state model books that we've read so far.
I like the David Connolly Nam book for, for Kentucky.I like Rambo.
I liked flee a lot, but yeah.
Pretty good.We will find out in a handful of weeks what our next state is, but next week we'll have an interruption to the next mini module.
The egg spoiled it in.A little bit.Email, but that's fine.We're recording out of order.It's okay.
Yeah.Uh, today's crime is eating handfuls of gravel in front of children at the beach.
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