We have never expected more from romantic love than we do today.Seriously, we want literally one person to give us what usually an entire village used to provide.We've never been more free and we've never been more alone.
She has been called the goddess of love and connection.
With two books and her wildly popular podcast, Where Should We Begin?The one, the only psychotherapist and best-selling author. Her name is Esther Perel.
Sex is just a coded language for our deepest emotional needs.Because tell me how you were loved, and I will know a lot about how you make love.
This kind of modern definition of intimacy, into me see, because I come to you, and I don't just want you to give me advice.I want you to look at me in the eyes.
I want you to respect me value me validate me And I want you to help me transcend my existential alone so that I never feel alone anymore Wow, honey.Can you deliver?
What would you say are three tools that people who are single should start to work on so that they can enter a healthy relationship or if someone's in a healthy relationship how they can keep it thriving and not fading, okay, I
Welcome to Astor Perel, Summit of Greatness.How many years are we doing this?We first met, I think it was Summit Series, I think it was 10 years ago or something.I saw you give a presentation and we were on a cruise ship.
I can't remember, okay.But the main thing is not only how many years, it's we too have a relationship that we have just supported each other back and forth.There's not many people that are always there for me the way you are.
I just want to acknowledge that before I talk.
I first heard you speak again years ago and I was like I need to meet this person.She's incredible.I need to have her on my show.I need to support her and elevate her.Because what you were saying, I was like everyone is struggling with this.
Everyone was struggling with what you were talking about back then.And it seems like now more than ever people are struggling in relationships.Especially after COVID.
It's like either everyone got together during COVID or everyone broke up during COVID. The political season happening now.People are realizing, oh, we don't have the same political views.Can we make this work?
People want intimacy and connection more than ever.But they are more connected to their phones and less present and willing to be vulnerable and loving and courageous and open-minded.
Do you feel like it's harder than ever to be in a healthy, loving, committed relationship?
Or are you seeing with all the work that you're doing, the touring you're doing, the community you have, that people are just happy and they have no relationship problems?Who is just happy?
I think that both things are happening.I mean, look, what did you begin to say?I spent four years really digging into myself because I knew that I have to change my relationship to myself to be able to be available for others.
And I thought as I was listening, I said, The question is never... No, maybe this way.Everybody has relationship issues they need to address.Everybody, me included, everybody.The only thing is not if you're going to do it, but with whom.
Who is the person with whom you're going to say, I'm ready to do this work?So, we have never expected more from romantic love than we do today. Seriously, we want literally one person to give us what usually an entire village used to provide.
Here are all the things I want with you.Companionship, economic support, family life, social status, the stuff that our parents and grandparents had.
But then I want you to be my best friend, and my trusted confidant, and my intellectual equal, and my efficient co-parent.
and my fitness buddy, and my professional coach, and my spiritual personal development guru, and last but not least, my passionate lover.Oh, man.
So, this is my list of what I want to find.And this is happening at a time when we have the complete under-resourced relationships with the loss of the traditional structures.
No social hierarchies, no community, no, for many of us in the West, no religious guidance.And so everything is negotiated. Everything is negotiated.And that means that we need to have very good communication skills.
But we don't have the communication skills because nobody's talking to each other. So there's a bit of a contradiction happening.We want a lot.We can have more than we've ever had.
We have the possibilities for so many choices that my grandmother couldn't dream about.But we don't have the tools to actually give us the possibility to establish.
What would you say are three tools that people who are single should start to work on so that they can enter a healthy relationship? or three tools, if someone's in a healthy relationship, how they can keep it thriving and not fading.
Okay.I'll start with the second first.I don't know if it's tools or ways of thinking.The first thing is that not only did I describe this enormous list of what we look for in a partner, but on top of it, we want to do it without a community.
A couple lives in an ecosystem.A couple is never just a relationship of two. It's all the people that are in the bed with you that you're not even aware of.But it's also, you know, who is there to support you?
And I think the loss of community is really a major piece of what makes it challenging to be healthy.Because it means that, you know, if I can't talk to you, I can go talk to a girlfriend about certain things.
There's some things that I should just not expect. from you.And rather than, you know, Moses and the rock, I'll beat, I'll beat, I'll beat, and maybe water will flow.No, sometimes the water doesn't flow.You know, so A is a community.
So we're expecting our partner to listen to us about everything all the time as opposed to... Your partner cannot give you what the whole village or community should provide.
Get the community. Number one.
Community is a great tool.
Community is huge.Huge.You need other people who think about you, who care about you, who pay attention to you, who compliment you, you know, the whole thing, who seduce you, the whole thing.But it needs more than one.
Before you go on to the next one, I just want to add to that something that the reason I feel safe in my relationship with Martha is because she has incredible community.She doesn't bring me her problems first all the time.Right.
First she talks to her mom, then her sister, then her girlfriends, then her cousins, then her aunts.Then, which is amazing, then it's kind of tired her out.She's like, okay, I don't need to talk about this anymore, right?
If she still needs to talk about it, she can talk to me.And then you say, what did your mother and auntie do?What advice did they give you?Okay, cool, I like that.Here's what we can do.But it's not coming to me first.
Sometimes she comes to me right away with something and that's great. There's a breakdown.I need to talk to you about this.It's like urgent or I'm feeling overwhelmed and stressed.
It's extremely important to diversify your relationships in your life.It just holds you.You cannot burden one person.And on top of this, this whole list that I make, this kind of modern definition of intimacy, right?Into me see.
Because I come to you and I don't just want you to give me advice.I want you to look at me in the eyes.
I want you to respect me, value me, validate me, reflect back to me.And I want you to help me transcend my existential aloneness so that I never feel alone anymore.
Honey, can you deliver?So it's that thing.That's why I say community first, because your relationship will be stronger when it doesn't stand alone.The second thing is your relationship will be stronger when you don't treat it like a cactus.
It means that you bring the best of yourselves to work, and you take it to every other place, and then when you come home, you put your feet up, and you feel like you can take your nice clothes off, and you don't have to make an effort anymore, and here is the thing.
And then we wonder why people are not having sex.Modern intimacy.
Modern intimacy.I'm curious, you mentioned something, we haven't gotten to tool number two yet, but you mentioned something about the West and today and cell phones and social media and things like that.
But you also mentioned, I think you mentioned religion and God at one point.How important do you feel is religion or having God in the middle of a relationship for the Western society to thrive?
Do you see relationships that have that thrive better than a lack of God or religion or some type of spiritual practice?
In traditional societies, but they may be right here, it's not just like you have to travel far for that.Religion is a central hierarchy that tells you how to believe, how to act, how to react.It gives you the steps.
Relationships in that culture are usually organized around duty and obligation.Religion doesn't ask you, what do you feel like doing, honey?You know, religion tells you what to do.And religion then helps you with three most important pieces.
One is how do you make sense of the unintelligible. Every religion deals with that.The second thing is religion helps you deal with suffering.Not that you won't suffer, but how to bear it.And the third thing that religion helps you with is evil.
Why do people act? in ways that are so harmful to others.Every religion does this, and so does every social structure.It may have a God in the midst of it, or it may not.
But this thing about the soulmate on a nap, when you think about what is it that people mean by the one and only, that's the soulmate, is that today, and you tell me if that's not religious, I want to experience with you wholeness, transcendence, belonging,
meaning and ecstasy, everything that we used to look for in the realm of the divine.So we still are no less religious.
We just don't call it like this and we don't look for it in the same place, but psychedelics and everything else included, we may call it spirituality, but fundamentally these are basic human needs and we will look for them either here or there, but the needs won't change.
Makes sense.A lot of your work around eroticism lately has been inspiring a lot of people.I'm curious, are people having less sex and are being less intimate with their sexual connection as well and less eroticism in general?
And if so, is that just because they're so addicted to phones and they're tired and exhausted or not present?
In most theaters I go, there's a lot of bad sex, which means the issue about having sex doesn't mean it's a good experience.You can have plenty of sex and feel nothing, and you can do very little and feel a ton.
So I don't want to answer the question with, are people having less sex?Because people have done sex for centuries and had miserable experiences.Women know that.Okay.Men have it too, but they don't always know it.That's the only thing.
Because they've been pumped to take whatever they can get. All right, back to your question.So I think when I start like this, I say, OK, so then what's the next thought?
The next thought is my invitation for us not to think about sex as something that we do, but to think about sex as an experience. to not think about performance and outcome, but to think about sex as a place you go.It's a trip you take.
You take it inside yourself, with another, with others, and so then the question is, where do you go?What do you want to experience there?What parts of yourself do you connect with? Is it to be naughty?Is it to have fun?
Is it to have a spiritual union, transcendence, to be taken care of, to surrender safely?Where do you go?And when you say it like that, then the next piece is sex is just a coded language for our deepest emotional needs.
So, because I think, and this is the key for me, is that we think we're talking about sex because it speaks sex, but what it says, even if it's just hit-and-run sex, has emotional meaning.
What type of meaning does it have?
Meaning, what you were talking about, I was afraid.I cannot imagine that your being less afraid did not translate in how you make love today.Because tell me how you were loved and I will know a lot about how you make love.
And if you say, I was afraid to be with you, I was afraid not to be with you, I was afraid to leave you, I was afraid to reveal myself to you, well, then your sexuality took care of all of those fears.
Because our emotional history is inscribed in the physicality of sex.Now, I just took six months to create courses on sexuality because I thought, how do I explain then the difference between sex and eroticism?
Because eroticism is sexuality transformed by our imagination.It's everything that gives sex meaning.Otherwise, we are animals.Animals have sex and people have an erotic mind.And in that erotic mind, they imagine a ton of stuff.Bizarre stuff.
Stuff that is irrational, stuff that makes no sense, stuff that they would fight again during the day is completely turning them on at night.I mean, that erotic mind is the most fascinating organ that exists in us.
Why do humans do that so much?
Ah, but we don't know.And why is it that the thing that gets you completely excited is the biggest disgust for the other?I mean, it's one of the, I mean, there's a reason you become a sexologist.It's fascinating, right?
To figure that out, to understand how play, how the power of our imagination takes cares of our fear, our inhibitions, our wounds, our longings, and turns them into a coded language like dream.
You know, and to which you can, it's like when children play, you pretend, I mean, are you the policeman?No, you're not the policeman, but you're gonna talk to me for 20 minutes like you're the policeman.
Or the fireman, or the, you know, I'm talking about the kid now, I didn't mean to say it's a sexual fantasy.
Oh man, I know what your fantasy is.You're gonna go to Vegas, get the stripper tails, let's go, you know?
So the goal is, how do you help people not have more sex, but feel more in sex?Be more present, be more engaged, experience fun, feel loved, feel desired, feel wanted.This is the idea.And all of those things, be more curious.
and not just a foregone conclusion.That is training people to feel alive, vibrant, vital.That's the erotic.I think that our society has spent a tremendous amount of attention to how you get people to get it done.
And they have found somewhat of a solution for the dudes, and they are on a quest to find that little pill for the women.
But female sexuality is defying any pill for the moment, and they can't get her to get the female Viagra so that she will just get it done.And I would love to invite you to never embrace industrial policies for the erotic.
I've shared many times on my podcast.I think I've shared with you in our interviews as well that I experienced sexual abuse when I was a kid.I know.And I felt like it definitely imprinted something in me that it took years to heal.
You know, one in four women have some type of sexual abuse.
One in six boys and men.And so, you know, 4,000 people in the room.I can imagine there was some foul play to some extent for a number of people here at some age, whether they remember it or not.
And there are some who are adults who just had bad sexual experiences.Maybe it was consensual, but it was just like you said, it wasn't enjoyable.For anyone in here who's experienced any type of sexual wounds,
How can they start to heal so that they can feel free in a relationship?That they can open up even more and feel safe in that intimacy and that eroticism and not feel shameful or not feel wounded or not feel guarded?
How can people start to heal sexually?
There are three.This is going to be a short answer to a question that deserves a book.
But there are three main pieces that I draw from the work of Holly Richmond about the recovery.One is when you are able to reclaim control.But the control is not about saying no.The control is actually about saying yes.
When you, there is no greater freedom than voluntarily giving yourself over.That's the thing that is robbed from us when we are coerced.So it's that first piece is control.But I'm gonna repeat it.
The control is often misunderstood as I have the power to say no.No, that's not, that's piece of it, that's a given.It's I have the power, I have the choice to say yes, control.The second one is connection.
Before you go there, what does the choice to say yes mean?Yes to what?
To giving myself to you.To being with you.To trusting you.And to giving myself the permission to enjoy.There is no greater vengeance for anyone who has experienced abuse than to reclaim control, connection, and pleasure.
It's, you know, it's, and I like the word, there is no greater vengeance, because it says you didn't get the best of me.You don't get to rule the rest of my life.You ruled those months, those years, those nights, but I reclaimed it.
So the choice of the giving is that you basically allow yourself to slowly, the word is slow, you stop, you breathe, you say, hold on, and you have someone who is completely there for you.
The healing is in that you don't have for a moment, afterwards it shifts, to negotiate, making sure that I'm pleasing you while I'm taking care of me. It's okay, that's the healing thing.
And then the second part is the connection, is that I don't have to dissociate from myself or from you while I'm lying there or standing there, whatever.
It's that I actually know that I am here and that I don't have to, that I am actually proud of being here, that I deserve it, that I'm entitled to it, that I'm worthy of it.All those fundamental things that are the offset of shame.
And then the third one is I have pleasure.I'm not just getting it done, I'm doing it, I'm experiencing the way I enjoy it, the way you enjoy it, it's pleasurable.
It is filled with imagination, playfulness, curiosity, serendipity, you know, and that concept of pleasure for me is the greatest vengeance.
There you go, that's good.
I'm curious, show of hands if you're in a relationship currently.Show of hands if you're in a relationship currently.
For the people in a relationship, what's a great question that someone, if someone desires to have deeper intimacy, eroticism, you know, deeper levels of sexual play.
But they feel afraid that their partner isn't willing to express that same sentiment. How can they shape that conversation?What's a question they can ask?How could they start it where they?
You know to make sure that they're bringing their partner with them on the journey without feeling bunch of them in here by the way in case you you There are many It can go it depends first of all if we're having the conversation while we're sitting at the kitchen table Or if we're having the conversation while we're in bed in bed or you know It's I think that many conversations that are challenging are better not in bed
Leave the bed for the good experiences.
You know, so... Before you go on, that's an agreement that me and Martha made early on.Because we were, you know, I think when you're getting in a relationship, you're learning about each other, you're connecting.
Oh, what's that thing that kind of made me feel weird?Or I don't know about this thing, can you explain more?And we would have conversations like at, you know, 10, 11, 12 o'clock at night.And I remember just saying, I want to be here for you.
I want to be present.I want to give to you.I want to listen to you.But my brain is falling asleep right now.It's so hard for me to sit up and get present and really be intimate with you and listen to you.
And I think maybe it's more her natural way of being.She wants to share whenever she wanted to share.But I needed to speak up and say, listen, I love you.And because I love you, I want to give you my best before 10 o'clock at night.
But after 10 o'clock at night, let's just be peaceful and have simple conversations.Let's talk about what we're grateful for.But by having the courage to speak up and create that agreement, we have alignment and we have harmony now.
And I think a lot of people lack that courage.
So I want to hear what you have to say.I really want to be there, and I can't do this now.I think that what this highlights is that the person who doesn't want to talk, there's two parts to this. whenever it is, in bed or 10 o'clock.
The person who doesn't want to talk has the permission to just say, I don't want to talk right now because I won't be giving you the attention that you and I deserve.
And the second part is whoever says not now is the one who is responsible to come back when.
Understand so I can't speak right now, but let's do it tomorrow or or you don't say when you come back the next day And you say you know that conversation I would love for us to have it but because what happens if you don't come back then the other person starts
When is it going to happen?And now I'm following you around the house.Are we ever going to talk about this stuff?The avoidant person?
And then it becomes a whole... I think it's very important that whoever says, I can't do it now, has the right to do it.Just know that if you are the one who then re-engages, it builds tremendous trust.
Yes. So, questions to ask about sex.What's the biggest fallacy about sex that you grew up with?What's the biggest piece of bullshit people told you?The biggest myth?What's something that changed for you around your sexuality?
What's the risk that you took sexually? When you love, how does it feel?And when you desire, how is it different?
What if someone doesn't like hearing about someone's sexual past?
Lots of people don't.Lots of people don't.It sometimes can be narcissistically challenging.There was somebody else before me and was that person better and did you enjoy it more and all of that.Some people love it, some people get turned on to it.
It covers the range and it's not always one thing.Sometimes it depends about whom.Wow. You know, on this one I can listen, that one I don't.You know, because that one came just before me or that one, whatever.
It's like, it's not a black and white, like I'm the one who can never hear.I sometimes am the one who can never hear when you talk about those kind of stories.You respect it, go tell your friends.
I mean, you don't pump, you know, inject stuff into a person who he's not gonna, he, they are not going to do anything good with it.It's like, keep your stories, they're yours, they're your life.
Monogamy no longer exists in reality, in the sense that it used to mean one person for life.Now monogamy is one person at a time.
And if you used to marry in order to have sex for the first time, now you marry and you stop having sex with others, for many of us anyway.So this thing monogamy only exists in fantasy in some way, but not in our reality.We've had multiple partners.
This is a new thing for us to deal with.New meaning about 60 years.
So, that doesn't mean it didn't exist before, but it was clandestine, so you didn't have to worry about the question of what about the partner who doesn't want to hear, because you would never tell it. That's kind of what changed.
Now, you know, if you're with someone, I think it's interesting to find out what threatens you.What's scary about it?Why not?I mean, I actually would love to hear.I don't want to tell you, you know, but I do want to hear.
Yeah, but I don't... What threatens you about what?About knowing that I've had other people, that I've been with others, traveled with others, slept with others, sucked others, done everything.
You know, that it's not you, that you're not the first one, and that not everything rides on you, and that you're not going to be the one who deflowered.And this is in a hetero context, you know?It's like, no, you're not the one.
So it really says, see what it threatens.It says, we are replaceable.We are not indispensable, and we are not unique.And in our culture of individualism, that's a slap in the face.
You know, it's that.It says, yes, there was before and there could even be after.We live with that.
Once we were in love relationships or marriages where you got put together or you chose and then there was a triple lock at the door and you could never leave, you know, basically you married once for a lifetime and that's what it was.
And if you didn't like it, people, you could always hope for an early death of your partner.
But that was it.Once you have no longer tight knots, but loose threads, you fall in love, you break up, you fall in love with someone else.Most of us in the West today will have two or three marriages or adult relationships in our lifetime.
Some of us will do it with the same person. But we know that we are not the only one.And yet the whole romantic ideal is about the soulmate and the one and only.And that's the clash.Inside of us, we know it.
But we pretend and we want you to promise me that I am that person and there will never be.And yet, maybe they won't be after me, but there certainly was before me.And that says we are replaceable.That's existentially
We grieve, we mourn, and we love again.Lucky for us.But that's the threat.
You work all over the world.You work with, you know, the biggest celebrities and billionaires and people that are unknown and going through normal day challenges.
You work with people who have been together for a long time, who have had affairs and gotten back together.You work with people for a long time on these topics.
Where do you feel like people have the happiest relationships in the world that you've experienced? Or at least they say they do.
And what do they have in common in those places where they're the, not that everything's going to be perfect, but where are they the happiest?
So that's a very interesting question.And by the way, I didn't answer the question about people dating who want to be in a relationship.
We can get back to that, yes.Don't leave us out.
Didn't forget you.I don't know that it's geographic.In places where the community is really strong, which a lot of people come here from countries where you, you know, at the heart of your life is this community, extended family and all of that.
You get support, you get a lot of clarity, but you often get very little freedom, which is why so many people come to America. you know, and to New York, to get that freedom.
In places like in New York, or in very individualistic places, where at the heart of the relationship is not the community, but the individual, in search of a community, you have unprecedented freedom.
We've never been more free, and we've never been more alone. So I don't know a place on the planet where we are more happy.The places where people have a lot of togetherness, people often yearn for separateness, for freedom, for autonomy.
The places where people have a lot of individuality and freedom, they yearn for more connection.They yearn to not feel modern loneliness, which kind of masks itself as hyperconnectivity.
You can have a thousand virtual friends and no one to feed your cat. No one to pick up a prescription at the pharmacy.That's what we understood in the pandemic.God forbid somebody to pick you up at the airport.Friends and friendship is not the same.
So I don't know places where people are more happy geographically.What makes people more happy is to feel that they matter.
that people care about them even when they don't see them, that they take them with them inside of them, that their relationships are meaningful, nurturing, that they don't judge them and that they also don't ignore them.
So it's this kind of nice flexibility between, you know, you're there for me, But not on the condition that I do what you want.And I have the freedom, but not that you can cancel an hour before dinner.Because these days, who cares?
Which happens a lot in this town, Case in Point.
So this is freedom too, like the freedom to think, do I have better?Is there a better deal for me tonight?
And this is also freedom, is that I'm so important that I no longer think about how this is going to affect you, that you may have cooked a whole meal and I just at seven o'clock tell you that I won't show up at eight.That makes people feel.
What makes us happy is meaning, creativity, flexibility, and good laughter.
Good laughter?Yes. So it's having the community with flexibility.Yes.Where it's not like you have to do what I tell you to do, or otherwise we're not going to love it.
Which is why people have family of choice.People create today new communities.People pursue polyamory as a form of community building.I mean, there's a lot of iterations of how to build community.
But it doesn't have to be always the people that you grew up with.
Because they're not always your best community either.
Sure. And what about the single people who have maybe struggled in previous relationships or who maybe took time for themselves but now they want to attract and create a healthy relationship.
How can they do the work for themselves so that they can really see when a person is in front of them that, oh, this is a healthy human being.Let me explore this and not just get into old similar patterns.
I tend to not like, first of all, the concept of single and coupled.Because today you're single and tomorrow you're not, and today you're coupled and tomorrow you're single.There's a lot much more fluidity these days.But what I do know is this.
We live with belief systems.Relationships are stories.Everyone here has a story about your relationship.And we sometimes hold on to our stories so tightly that we confuse them with the truth.
If I say there are no good men out there, if I say all people are out to get you, if I say I'm a pathological pleaser, if I say people have never cared about me properly, these stories become belief systems that become a part of my confirmation bias.
And when we have confirmation bias, it means that I'm now going to look at you and see to what extent this is going to reinforce my belief. And then I'm going to disregard evidence of the rest.So check your assumptions.
That's the first thing on the chain.What are your fundamental beliefs with which you enter relationships?And to what extent do you find yourself busy proving that they're true, which doesn't serve you much?
Number one.Number two, when you go out on a date, don't turn them into job interviews.They've never seen something less interesting.I mean, people ask questions and then they look to see if they have butterflies.How can that work?
It's the most dull, dull kind of encounter.This weird thing that I see has happened.But you go out to date, as this is if you get a date, You know, because they have that other experience.
And then you have to come back to your life to tell them if you won the lottery or not.And if you come back with your shame or with your emptiness, it's dreadful.You know, there was something useful in the other model, the old model.
You date, you meet somebody, you bring them to your life.You meet them with your friends.You'll have 1,000 data points.Far more interesting than sitting in some noisy bar and trying to ask questions.
And this integration, if the date doesn't work, the date is gone, and the friends are still here, and you continue your life.
So this is not about the building of the relationship, but it's about the dating itself.The next thing is that we have a thing in relationships that's very interesting.It's called fundamental attribution error.
Fundamental what?Attribution error.Fundamental attribution error.
Yeah, it goes like this. I am complicated and complex, you are simple.When you come late... It's because you don't care.When I come late, it's because there were circumstances in my life to explain why I am late.Mine is circumstantial.
Yours is characterological.
You're just a slob.You're just a this.You're just a that.It's a fantastic way we have to organize the world.So that is one of those nasty things that really make relationships not thrive. You know, name calling, the other person, the whole thing.
And then I'll ask you one other one that I think is really crucial.When you fight, because fighting is a major piece of relationship, it's intrinsic.Conflict is part of love and relationships, all relationships.
But don't think that what matters is what you're fighting about.But always ask yourself, what is it that I'm fighting for? What people fight for when they fight is usually three things.You fight for care and closeness.
You fight for respect and recognition.And you fight for power and control. Who makes the decisions?Whose priorities matter more?Care and power and control.Care and closeness, do you have my back?Can I trust you?
And respect and recognition, can you value me?Most fights you will find are about one of those three things.But that's not what we say.What we say is, why did you leave your shoes once again?
You know, in my tour, I have this couple, and they talk, they fight about the cat closet, the litter, the cat box, you know, and I'm thinking, seriously, we're gonna talk here about cat litter?I mean, this is an important session.
And then I understand that when she says, why didn't you close the closet?It has nothing to do with the closet.It has to do with his father, who told him all the time what to do, who stood with his foot on his neck, who never let him breathe.
And this guy grew up saying, nobody's going to be the boss of me.This is what he's saying when he says, why shall I close the closet?That's power and control.And then she grew up all alone, taking care of the whole family, really miserable situation.
And when he says, why shall I close the closet?You close the closet.What does she hear?I'm going to be alone for the rest of my life.I've always had to do it for everybody.I took care of everyone.And this is going to continue.
You know, this is the underlying thing.But people will get so caught in the closet and the cat litter, it's phenomenal.This is why... Do you get, this is the, what are you fighting for?Ask yourself that, it will shorten your therapy hours by many.
That's beautiful. This is why me and Martha have one of the electronic robo-cat cleaning litters.So no one has to clean the litter, yeah.It self-cleans, it's amazing.
Yes, yes, these days we trust our robots more than our partners.
I know, right?It's amazing.The cat robot, you guys know what I'm talking about.You guys got one?Yeah, those are good, right?No one's got to clean it, it's self-cleaning.They don't have that for dogs.You just got to walk them still, you know?
I want to ask you a personal question.I always like to do this with you.We will see if you want to receive it or not. coaching others for a long time.And you've got amazing podcasts.Your podcast, Where Should We Begin, is incredible.
I don't know if anyone's ever heard this.Where Should We Begin is incredible.You've got amazing books, which we have your books out in the bookstore.If people haven't gotten them yet, we've got your books here.You've got this game that'll help you.
Where Should We Begin.Anyone have this yet? Where should we begin?This is an amazing game of stories by Esther Perrero where you can really connect with your partner on ideas and things like that.You've got an eroticism course as well.
We'll have a link for you guys, we'll show you that in a second.For anyone that wants to be more sexually connected in that playful way, you'll be able to tap into that.
But I'm curious, with all the research and all the work you've done to help others, What in the last five years have you received for yourself or had to overcome personally in intimacy, relationships?
Again, you help and serve so many people, but sometimes as the coach, You don't get the opportunity to always self-reflect and get coached and work through things personally.
I'm curious, is there anything in the last five years that you've seen a breakthrough personally with your life?
Yes, yes.Half of me was so excited I have an answer, and half of me wished I didn't have to have an answer.But you'll hear why. When did we go to Australia?Two and a half years ago.I came to LA on November 1st.
I was with my husband and we were on our way to New Zealand.I was starting a whole tour. My kids were already waiting for us there and basically we entered the doctor's office and the doctor said, you ain't going on any plane.You're not flying.
You have 10% kidney function left.
For him. And we knew he had kidney issues, but not that bad.Not that bad.And you know, in the United States, there are no organs because the system is set up that if you want to be a donor, you have to specify it on your driver's license.
In Belgium, where I'm from, everybody is a donor unless you specify on your driver's license that you don't want to be a donor.So think about that, because it really saves lives. But now I needed to find a kidney.
And that meant I needed to let people help me, and I was at a mercy.So I began to talk to small groups of friends, just grew the circle every time a little bit.Who would like to donate a kidney?I'm not a match.My son is not a match.
My other son was not going to be able to do.And it's an amazingly humble you know, experience to... I had no problem asking, I have to say.I generally have no problem asking for help.I'm not the person who helps others but can't ask for myself.
You're not, you don't, you don't gingerly do the eroticism with asking for help.Yeah.You're not playing.You're like, give me the help.Let's go.
And I got a point where we had 10 people, 10 people who were willing to donate, but one match.
And anyway, the match came true.It was our friend.We brought her over from Europe.
We created this whole ritual with friends in my house, where the night before they went in, where instead of it just being an organ donation, we turned it into a sacred gift.
We sat in a circle and talked about what is our experience in life about giving and receiving.We brought them together the next day.And then for the next months while they were recovering, basically I had all our friends.
This one took them to the hospital every morning at 7, this one cooked, this one this, this one that.And here's the important thing.I live with an expert on community resilience.
His work, his lifelong work is about collective trauma and community resilience, but he had never experienced it himself in action.Wow.So this is my story.Oh my goodness.Oh my gosh.
I have not yet told this in public.
Wow, that's beautiful.And what has been the breakthrough or the lesson for you two and a half years later now?
So here's the interesting thing.There is a moment that is a lesson.At one point early on, I said I talked to so-and-so and they said we should go see the doctor so-and-so, which we're going to see now in LA.
And he said, why do you talk about this with people?I'm entitled to my privacy. any of you who are in this room who are that person.
And I said, but come on, it's because I talk to these people that I got this name that I now have disappointment that this is how it works, community.
I mean, do you think we're just going to sit here and find a doctor who's going to see us in less than six months?That's what I meant by I talk.
And it's about overcoming your shame and thinking that privacy is really nice, but you will die in privacy. And, you know, and that if you don't want to do it, that's okay, but let the people around you do it for you.
Wow, that's beautiful.That's amazing.And how is he doing now?It's great.
It's great.It's like, you know, a new life.It's impressive.I mean, you know, most surgeries dig things out.This one just puts something in.
Wow, that's incredible.And what was the biggest lesson for the donor?
I mean, the donor, what you experience is you feel like you've given life to someone.And by the way, you live perfectly well with one kidney.
So it's really when the most important moment about the donor is that at Mount Sinai, they have every year a gathering of the donors, liver donors, kidney donors.And you're in a room with these people.
We happen to know ours, but all of the other people, sometimes it's strangers who just one day appear like angels. And you watch these people, these unsung heroes, and you just shut the f*** up because, you know... I don't know if I would do it.
This is the thing.Would I have done this?Have I known people?Have I heard and I never responded?Like, it's so easy, you know, to think, but no, no.And I watched these people and I just bawled.
Wow.That's a beautiful experience.I'm so glad you shared that.Thank you for sharing that.
I have a question for you.Yeah. No, because... I'm pretty open, I mean... Because the last time we met, you were just in the engagement, going to therapy, working on it.
And here you are, you know, what's the... You know, you said, I worked on myself or we have worked together, but what's the part of yourself that you discovered that you didn't know existed? I have another one afterwards.
Is that Martha whispering to you?
A part of me, I'm just trying to be present with the whole experience, a part of me I've that the part of me I've discovered that I knew it didn't exist.
That I didn't know existed.The thing that has come out of me that surprises even me.
I think that I am deserving of incredible love.That's the thing I just said.
And I think it's been a journey of receiving it.
Thank you.But I feel like
For most of my life, and I don't know if anyone can relate, it was about, I felt loved by people, but I also, I think the traumas outweighed the memories of the love.
So the traumas were bigger memories of fear, anxiety, and pain, and like, you know, Dan, you're safe, you're loved, you're free.
And it's not like there was one person or people, it was just a series of events over time of all the different series of events.You know, my sexual abuse is one of the first memories I have as a human being.
And again, that kind of imprints you until you reprogram it, until you create new meaning with it and allow it to, and say, how can I use this for good, right?
And how can I, this doesn't define me, it's a thing that happened and I feel at peace about it. But as a child, you know, that was there.You know, my parents had their struggles.They just really struggled.
My dad was a difficult human being as much as I loved him.He was very difficult and emotionally up and down.So there was not emotional stability from him.So therefore there was challenge with them.
And my brother was in prison for four and a half years when I was eight years old. So there was just shame and trauma within the family dynamic that, oh, my older brother who's my hero is in prison.I love him.Is he a bad guy?Is he a good guy?
I feel he's a good guy.Why is he here?Every weekend we would go for hours in the visiting room and be around 20, 30 convicts and their families.Every week for four and a half years. And so there's traumas there.
It's just the picking on, the bullying, the being dyslexic, not being able to read, unable to speak in front of an audience without being terrified.Just all the series of events, I focused more on the traumas than the love.
There was a lot of love, but I couldn't feel them. And so learning how to regulate my nervous system and my heart and my body and learn how to breathe with all of it.
Chaos of the world, relationship challenges from the past, and learning how to say, oh, I am safe no matter what's happening around me.Whether I'm going through a disagreement, it doesn't mean my life is at risk.
Whether someone doesn't like me, it doesn't mean I have to give in to what they're requesting. If I don't feel good right now, that's okay.I know I can transform it and feel good tomorrow.
So learning the skills, learning the tools, and doing the deeper healing work has allowed me to feel loved.
And really I think one of the biggest fears was I lacked the courage to end relationships so I would stay for way longer than I knew intuitively I shouldn't be in this.But I was afraid to be alone.
I didn't know how to fully be alone and love myself alone.And I really learned how to do that to where I don't feel like I have to give in to anyone.
I'm like, I love myself if I'm alone and I know that God will provide me in the right direction with what I need.It's not what I want but I know I'll be provided that.
And having that clarity and that inner peace of I'm going to be okay no matter what happens.Let's me be free to be me.And feel loved.I can give myself love and I can receive it from others also.Even if I'm not getting it from others in a moment.
If I need it, I know how to give it to me. in a spiritual way, not like a selfish, oh, I'm loving myself way.
And so I think learning that process while healing and creating meaning from all these memories of the past, it just gives me a lot of peace and freedom.And I never had that until really the last four years, so.Thank you.Yeah, of course, thank you.
I think that everything you just said is part of your question.It's part of the answer to the question, you know, how does one prepare oneself to be in a relationship?You know, there's often a pull in a relationship between two polarities.
The fear of losing the other and the fear of losing oneself.
The fear of abandonment and the fear of suffocation.
I will leave, I will not leave you but I will lose myself in order not to be alone. Or the reverse is I leave you all the time.I don't stick around anywhere because I'm afraid that if I hang one more day, I'm going to get trapped.
So the fear of alone and the fear of entrapment is really at the heart of, it's one way of understanding a lot of what you're talking about.But knowing yourself as well as you do now, what do you think makes you unbearable?
what makes me unbearable.
Yeah, hard to live with on occasion.
I'd have to ask Martha that. I think I'm, you know.
It's a question I ask in most first sessions.
Yeah, that's good.What makes me unbearable?
I'm unbearably strong.What makes it hard to live with you?
It's interesting.I would, I mean, we'd have to ask Martha, I guess that probably, but I would think.
The whole point is, do you have the self-awareness?I would ask her the same question.
I would say, here's what I would say.I mean, I don't know if I, You can't say there is nothing unbearable about me.
Live unbearable.Hard to live with.
Hard to live with.Here is what I'm going to say.I felt like I have chosen the most incredible person for me.Who accepts what most people would think is unbearable.
I'm not talking about her.
I understand. But I don't think I'm unbearable for her.
For people to work with you, for people to be your friend.
I think I have a high standard.I think I have a very high standard, you know.
And I've learned how to, like even during our conversation, I don't know if you've noticed this, but there's been people talking and noises in the background like for the first 30 minutes that was driving me nuts.
And the old me would have stopped you and walkie-talkies and things slamming.No one heard it out here but for me it's not a standard that we have prepared for.
And so for me, if this was the old me, I probably would have stopped you and said, what the F is going on.And say, hey guys can we stop talking back there, because I want to make sure we're having a great experience.
And so I caught myself because I didn't go back to the old me.I remembered the future me, the vision of me.And you know, the old me. We made a mistake.Through the intro video, no one came out.We told you a different time and we made a mistake.
And I am over there thinking you are about to walk out and Matt is like, no, Matt is screaming at me.She's not ready when I am sitting over there.And I was like, the old me would have been frantic.
I made a mistake, like, oh, she's going to be mad at me that we introduced her, but we told her the wrong time.I've ruined the relationship with Esther.The old me would have been like apologizing to you for weeks.How can I make it up to you?
When I used to make a mistake in a session sometimes, three weeks I'd be ruminating.Really?Now it's three days.That's good.I'm aiming for three hours.That's good, that's good.
No, but I mean... I know the standard story.Exactly.No, but I mean, right afterwards I was like, you know, this is a show.Things are going to happen and it's like, no one's perfect.
So I think I have a high standard, but I've learned how to let things roll better.
And so probably my team, you know, they would probably say the same thing, like, oh, he expects so much and he's always wanting more from us or expects a certain level of detail. But I've learned to just be a little more casual on things.
Because it's for everybody here too.Yes.This is the question on eroticism, right?What makes you feel alive?
I mean, sexually or you mean like in life? I don't know.You said eroticism.I'm not going to go there.I'm going to keep that.
No, alive.They live side by side, but it's alive.I don't need your sexual description.
I spoke about this yesterday, and I truly mean this.When I am able to have a big dream on my heart that calls me, pulls me, that inspires me activate and go after.When I have something, I'm like, man, I want to create this.I want to do this.
I want to, for whatever reason.And when I'm able to do it and serving or inspiring a lot of people in that journey, that really like inspires me.
So that is eroticism.Yes.You use the word creative, inspiring, dream, imagination, energy, aliveness.That is the erotic experience.And I hope that that's what you experienced with us.
I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness.Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links.
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And now, it's time to go out there and do something great.
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