I tell students this all the time, what do you love painting?Everyone wants to talk about they love painting.
I tell them, paint what you hate, you know, paint what you don't love, what you don't have some kind of an affection for, because those will be the paintings that will most inform you of what your weaknesses are.
You're tuned in to the Creative Endeavor podcast, where we unravel the stories behind the art, discover the paths, struggles, and triumphs of artists who turned their creative dreams into reality.It's Real Conversations with Real Artists.
And I'm Andrew Tischler, and it is such a pleasure to have your company in the studio once again. In this episode of the podcast, I'm talking to Daniel Keyes, who's an incredibly talented painter based in the United States.
I've been following Daniel's work for many, many years, so it's such a joy to finally have an opportunity to meet him and talk to him and ask him all about his work but also his creative journey so far.
Daniel paints in a beautiful, loose, painterly style, capturing exquisite scenes and beautiful still lifes.
He's probably best known for his incredible still life work, where he not only captures the essence and the beauty of his subject, but it just goes way above and beyond and is captured with such feeling and expressive brushwork.
Now I really also wanted to dive deep and ask Daniel all about how he does what he does.You know, how does he sling that paint?What are some of the brushes that he uses?What are some of his technical approaches to the canvas?
This was a real treat and I really hope you enjoyed this conversation.Before we get stuck into it though, I just need to take a quick minute and tell you about the Creative Endeavors sponsor, Rosemary & Co.Brushes.
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Well, with paintbrushes anyway.That's rosemaryandco.com and trust me, your art will thank you for it. All right, let's dive into this episode with Daniel Keyes.
Just a quick reminder though, before we get into the podcast, there is a full official video version of the podcast.Make sure you check that out.You can find it by visiting Tisch Academy.The link is in the description.All right, let's get into this.
Here he is.This is Daniel Keyes and the Creative Endeavor. Daniel Keyes, welcome to the Creative Endeavor podcast.I've been looking forward to this for a long while, and it's just such a pleasure to have your company here.
Thank you.I appreciate it.
Look, let's start things off here.Your paintings are amazing.I've been following on Instagram for some time and checking out your website.
They've just got a freshness, a looseness, and a boldness of somebody that I would expect to be much older and grayer than you are.So I get the sense that you would have started off pretty young, if I'm guessing correctly here.
Can you tell us where you started your creative journey when you first fell in love with painting?
Sure.Well, first of all, it's Botox and hair dye and all that kind of stuff.But it is all I've ever done.So I started as a child.Just I think like most just you start to
doodle and people give you some attention for it because perhaps it's slightly better than average.And so then it becomes an identity, I think.And that certainly happened for me.You know, people start referring to you as the little artist.
And so that's pretty much all I ever did.And then I started painting by the age of 11. And so not anything to speak of.I mean, it really wasn't great.It was just maybe slightly better than average.And then I've never had another job.
So it really is all I've ever done.So I've just been able to devote more time to it.So it would probably be a similar amount of time As someone much older, I just started so much earlier and didn't have anything else to inhibit that.
Even school, I was home educated, so my parents just noticing that I had such an interest in it really allowed for a lot of time to be given to it.
Wow.So, so you never had another job.That's fascinating.What, what did that early success look like?I mean, did you, did you have some way of supporting yourself?Were you still at home at this stage?
I was at home for a long time.
Yeah.Because my, I mean, my parents were great about that.My dad in particular, would every once in a while reiterate that we know that this takes time.
I mean, they sort of treated it, I look back on it, I think they sort of treated it the same way someone would if their offspring went into the medical field.
and you just sort of know going into it, it's at least eight, 10 years before they're really going to make it.
But it's so worth it because it's almost, in my parents' head, because they weren't really educated where art is concerned, they're not uneducated, but just where art is concerned, they just saw things, prices in galleries and thought, well, that's certainly,
if people are selling that, they're certainly making a living at it, and it's a huge industry.So it's just, it takes longer to acquire the skill to be able to do that on that level.So they were really supportive.
I've said this probably in other podcasts and things, so it's not new information, but it's still surprising, I think, to people.Those first paintings and on the covers of magazines and everything.Those were painted in my parents garage.
You know, that's, that's just how how that was.I did apply for a job.Do you guys have Home Depot or something like that?
We've we've got something similar.It's it's based it's based on Home Depot.It's called Bunnings here and down under.Yeah.
But yeah, yeah, we did apply there once.I thought, you know, when things were I was old enough, things were not I wouldn't have been able to support myself.I thought, well, I'll go get a job.And so I did apply there once.I never got a call back.
I'm glad you didn't get the job, bro.That's great. So that first taste of success then, so tell me about that.
So you mentioned there magazine covers and things, but what I'd really love to know, and certainly want to dive into that, I'd love to know like where did you first get your foot in the door with, you know, finding a representative?
Did you go into the gallery model or were you self-represented? How did that first initial, because as I know from my career, it was a bit of a snowball effect.One thing leads to the next thing, to the next thing, and then it gains momentum.
For some people, it can be a little bit more of a challenge, and that process can be a little bit more drawn out.But what was that like for you?
Well, I always sort of caution people that my My story is sort of an exception and not the rule.It's not something I think even I could duplicate if I tried.
My primary goal then is as it is now, and I think rightfully so, that it's all about producing the best work you can.So that would require constantly working to gain skill.
And so that was just my mindset, but it paid off because what had happened was I started, there was an online forum that was for artists that all of these artists were joining.It was before Facebook.
And so now we have the social media thing but this was pre that, and so it was wonderful because I was, you know, 2021, you know, up to 23.
going on this forum and meeting other artists online from all over the country and maybe other parts of the world.And we were just, people would post things, you know, it would be like, I don't know if you remember those kinds of forums.
There'd be moderators that would post threads and there'd be ongoing threads.
Well, I don't remember.Was it Wet Canvas?
Wet Canvas, by any chance?
No, no.I've heard of that.It was affiliated with, do you remember, American artists magazine.Did you guys ever?
Oh, yeah.Yeah, I'm familiar with it.I'm texting.But yeah, yeah, I live here in New Zealand.But yeah, but yeah, I'm familiar with that one.
Yeah.So it's no longer in publication.It was absorbed by, you know, that publishing company was purchased by another publishing company and so on.Anyway, so they it was affiliated with their, um, company or something.
And so, but it was great because all of these other artists were just on their kind of feeding off of each other.And that's when I, cause I didn't go to art school or anything.So that's where I just would pick up on what varnish are people using?
You know, the questions that someone would ask in a workshop.And I didn't even know about workshops, you know, or anything like that.And so it was just this whole new world I was spending.I mean, every day I'd go on there and check
to see what people were talking about, and then you could post your own work and share it with people, work in progress and that sort of thing.
Unbeknownst to me, if not most of the people on there, the editor of the art magazine, and they owned several magazines, They were on there and they must have been going through images, you know, I'm guessing.
And so I got an email one day from the editor of American Artist asking if they could do a feature on my work.And they didn't know anything about me except just the work that I was posting.And so they didn't realize I was 23 at the time.
And they just liked the work and wanted to do an article.And so I thought it was a scam.I always tell people.Because it was an email, I thought, well, this is something to just delete.
And so before I did, thankfully, I went and found American Artist Magazine and looked through it to see who the editor was.And of course, the names matched up. And so eventually we set up a time to do a phone interview.
I raced to get my paintings professionally photographed and I'm sure my parents paid for it, you know, and just to get all of that together and act like I was a professional.Up until then I was only doing local things.I was in a couple of
unknown local galleries and then I would do art fair type things where you rent a space and for a weekend and you sell your work at pretty minimal prices and so the article just was a thrill and then just before the issue was to come out the editor emailed again and said
By the way, we're using one of the images from the article for the cover of that magazine.And so I was living at home.Again, like I said, I was 23.Everyone, you know, has cell phones and those kinds of things.I didn't want any of that.
So I didn't have a cell phone.My parents had a landline and they were out of town. And so I had no, and there was no long distance call.They just, cause they, everybody else had cell phones.
So they just had, you know, people kept their landline for a long time.So I had no way of calling them or contacting them to tell them the good news because they were out of town.
So I had to call someone local who had long distance to call them so I could give them the good news I was going to be on the cover of this magazine.And ever since then, that was, that was like a big, it was like a,
a big break because that really, I don't give a lot of credence to magazines in the sense that some of them out there, they do take a little too much credit for an artist's career and they act like they can make your career and that's simply not true.
But in my case, it did change my life because after that, just all of these opportunities started to come.
Where do you think you would be if you didn't get that big break?Do you think that a big break is necessary?
Well, that's why I say it's the exception and not the rule, because certainly not.I mean, everybody has a different story.And I haven't heard one quite like mine.There might be some similar things.But I think in most cases, it's progressive.
And one thing, like you were saying just a few minutes ago, one thing leads to another. and it's sort of organic.And it is still that way, or it was that way for me, only it was accelerated.
Because, and again, I'll go back to, not that I look back on my work like it was amazing, but it was, I was producing at a level that would have been someone much further along.So it was an acceleration.
It was, of course, just seemed like happenstance, but it was just this perfect storm of good work and exposure.
Your skill with the brush, and again, I don't mean to gush here on the podcast, but my goodness, it is so beautiful.I've got a slideshow here playing on the other screen from your exhibition section on your website.
Those are all pastels, I think, aren't they?
Well, some appear to be, yeah.Some definitely look like oils.
And this one here... What's the exhibition?
Roses and Berries.There's one painting here.There's another one here.This is a pastel.Afternoon Light in... Oh yeah, that exhibition.
Okay.I can't pronounce this.Toilerez?
Tuileries Garden in Paris.
The gardens in front of the Louvre in Paris.
Beautiful.And this blue fish pot and apples.Stunning, man.Absolutely stunning.So, skill acquisition, then.This was something that must have been pretty important for you, especially early on.
I mean, this is a result, this kind of painting is a result of time and dedication. What could you put that down to?Because again, this seems to be something that you were seeking out, you were gaining, it seems, really rapidly.
What do you put that down to?Did you go to any workshops?Did you learn from anybody that helped you along?Or was it just hard graft and grinding it out in solitude in your studio?
Well, there was no outside instruction.And as I said, I was home educated, so there wasn't even art class of any kind.I just enjoyed it.And throughout my teenage years, it was just painting out of my head and trial and error and that sort of thing.
And then I, when I was about 19, I approached my first local gallery.And I was, I mean, I'm sure what I produced was just total junk, but, you know, I was just painting out of my head and doing what I could.And so the owner of the gallery,
turned me down, but very gently because I was so young and I looked younger than I was, I think too.So very kind, but then she was also kind enough to sit me down and explain why my work wasn't a good fit.
And she gave me some really good advice because I didn't know anything.And so her advice was to stop painting out of my head, start painting from life,
And to find an artist whose work I admire and study it and study what they're doing, maybe take a class or something.And I didn't have that.So after that experience, like I said, I was about 19 or 20.
I remembered seeing the work by a man named Richard Schmidt back when I was about 14 or 15 years old. Amazing.And so that stuck in my head.I always admired his work, but never did anything to study it.I just thought it was so serious.
Whenever I look at his work, it just seemed like that's a serious artist.That's someone who's not playing around.They know what they're doing.And I remembered that he had a book.It was expensive to me at the time, so I couldn't really pay for it.
But I did go on his website, and I just started studying his work.And then I just, from then on, I started painting from life only.And that was about a three-year period.I eventually did get his book, read it.That was my education.
And it was about a three-year period from that, you know, initial rejection experience to, the cover, the first cover of the magazine.So it was, I think of it like college education.I was just doing it on my own with that book as my curriculum.
So it was three solid years of just kind of, you know, proverbially blood, sweat and tears.
Oh yeah, wow, wow.Richard Schmidt is the bee's knees when it comes to oil painting.My goodness, his work is just Yeah, it's influenced a lot of artists.Now that you mention it, I can see a bit of that coming through.
You definitely, don't get me wrong, make it your own.But I just I love the, I love the confidence in your brushstrokes. And I found that in a lot of Richard's work, looking at his, just going, I just can't get my head around that.
It seems like it's breathed on and there's no fiddling. I tend to fiddle.I tend to fiddle a little bit too much, you know, and overwork things.I don't know where that line is.It's like, oh, the line was back there.You crossed it two hours ago.
But there's a freedom here that I find in your work and in his that is just It's beautiful.It's really beautiful.
Right now, I'm looking at this oil painting that you've done called Morning on the Farm, 20 by 30 inches, and you know, the kind of painting that I just appreciate so much is when somebody's got the guts to let it fall apart in the foreground.
There's nothing there, but it's perfectly suggestive, and there's just enough fragmentation of that brushwork.Oh, Daniel, I love it.
By the way, speaking of the book, Everything I Know About Painting, or Alloprima, Everything I Know About Painting by Schmidt, a very dear student and a member of my academy sent me a copy of that book.
I'm glad they sent me a copy because I was going to steal it off my buddy.I've got a very talented sculptor I share the studio with.Yeah, that was going to go missing because I love that book, man.It's a good book.
Is it the old one or does it say Alekma II?
You know, I can't see the spine from here.I'll have to check that out later.I it might be the newer version.It might be might be number two.If there was was there two versions?Or was it a completely separate book?
It's it's two.I wish he had not titled it that because people thought that they had to have both.It does say on there, it's just expanded, the expanded version.So he revised Ala Prima and basically doubled the content that's in it and republished it.
So it's everything that's in the first one plus more.
plus more get what you if you got the first and you got to have the second, right?You just got her.
Sure.I know.It's very expensive right now.
Right.But if you have the second, you don't need the first.
Perfect.Perfect.Wow.So many different directions we can go in here.So so With what we have at our fingertips today, Daniel, I mean, we're presented with so many opportunities as artists.How do you make it work now?
If you don't mind me asking you just some direct business questions.I would love to know, are you still represented?Do you still work with this gallery model?Tell me about that.
Yeah, so after that big break with the magazine cover, I thought I should ride this momentum a bit or use it to my advantage.And so I approached my first really big gallery that I had had my sights on as a long-term goal.
But it just, like I said, that experience kind of accelerated things.And so it made sense to approach that gallery now because I could, I had this new credential of, by the way, here's my work in this magazine.
And so the gallery is no longer in existence, but it was on par with the top galleries, you know, there's a handful of what would be considered the top representational fine art galleries in the country, and it was in that top five, I'd say.
And so they responded positively and immediately took my work and began to sell it they basically sold everything I sent them.
And oftentimes I would send them an image of what was being put in the mail, you know, it's on its way to them and they would have it sold before it arrived.And so that was early, like the early 2010s.
So 2009, 2010, and, you know, a few years after that. Um, And then after that, all the galleries started, I mean, you know, they just all started to contact and that's generally how it goes.
I still like the model, the business model, only because if I had my way, I would just be painting in my studio.I'd go to other people's events, but I wouldn't even go to mine, you know? and just send it and someone else can sell it.
Someone else can do all of that work.All I want to do is paint it.But of course you can't do that.Or at least if you did, it would take longer to be established.And so you have to get out there and you have to do your part.
It does seem though that the ratio of what they do versus what the artist does has begun to be a little bit imbalanced.They used to have a little more,
I mean, they still have influence, but it used to be that the gallery was one with all the contacts. and they had a way of, they were helping people build collections.
This was pre social media or social media was around, but galleries looked down on it.That was not a way to reach collectors, not that level of collectorship.And so they've been slow to adapt because they had it so well for so long.
As long as the gallery is not taking a huge, commission, you know, 50% or something is completely unacceptable.And I don't know why we agreed to it, because it's, it doesn't make any sense.
Today, anyway, as long as they're not doing that, and as long as they are actually As long as a gallery is selling my paintings to people that I didn't have to direct to the gallery, I wasn't doing the groundwork with, then it's a great resource.
They're reaching more people.They're supposed to be a middleman that does that sort of work for you so that you're free to work in the studio.
I am open to, I'm at least watching to see what happens because so many things are changing and I admire people who are doing it on their own.And if that is working, then they should.
I do prefer a brick and mortar, you know, space, something that it's not just going directly into someone's home or their collection, but people can see it and it gets a little more exposure.
Okay, cheeky question here.What is an acceptable rate?Do you mind me asking?
At the very most, you mean the commission?
At the very most, I mean, I'll, I'll, I'll consider 40%.But ideally, it should be a third.
You and I are exactly aligned on that.Exactly. I got such a bad attitude though, Daniel, that I don't think many galleries will touch me now.
And I've spent so many years on the podcast bagging them out that it's like, no, dude, we don't want to play with you.Or maybe they just think I suck.Maybe that's the problem.But no, I totally hear you.
It's interesting how the social media thing came along.And yeah, they were very slow and resistant to that change.I mean, this is a paradigm shift.
They're also not good at it now.
Right, right, right, right.And well, if you as an artist can have an Instagram following of, let's just even say 10,000.Like if a gallery told me, oh, we got 10,000 people on our mailing list.I'm like, dude, that is outstanding.That's staggering.
And so you've got reach.You can send out your flyers and the posts to 10,000 people Or you could farm that list, work out who your top clients and collectors are.And do you mean to tell me you can actually reach out to them with a phone call?
You go through the Rolodex or whatever.I'm really aging myself now, because I'm so old school, man. That would have been impressive back in the day.
But now, as an artist, you start up, you fire up that Instagram account, that Facebook account or YouTube channel or whatever.
And you can reach those sorts of numbers within a couple of weeks, within months, you know, with dedication and good practice.It's staggering.So why not?
Why not do that?The only thing is, and it has to be considered, because all of that is valid. but it also depends on your, I don't wanna, I don't want this to sound wrong, but it does depend on your numbers, your price range.Because it has increased.
It used to be, a direct sale through Instagram or something was just something small, you were just posting and it was something that your audience, that was the market, you know, for that sort of thing.
Once COVID hit, things did, I did notice, I remember the first one that was really, it came about through
social media contact, and then it just kept happening where it was a $10,000 painting or something more substantial, which you never, I never had that before.
That was only ever through the galleries, but once it's 20, 30,000 or these guys that are selling for way more than that, that's not a social media, you know, connection that I'm aware of.It's usually, you know, the bigger players
have some, I think, their contacts of the galleries, or there's something facilitating that kind of connection that I'm not sure it's social media.
Yeah, I definitely see that reflected in my numbers as well.Though, that said, I won't mention the chap's name.But every once in a while... You can just text it to me.Well, no, no.So it's in the name of a collector of mine.
So every once in a while, you get a whale that swims through.It gets caught in the net. that it's like, okay, well, this is why I respond to most of the DMs that come through.Because you never know if it's going to be like, oh, we got a whale here.
And he turned out to be one of my best clients ever.So I totally hear what you're saying, though.Like, for the most part, it does seem to be small things.But, you know, back in
Back in university days, I had a lecturer who was kind of putting it down.I went to a contemporary art school, all modern stuff, and I really didn't vibe with it.But this one guy was saying, oh, look, that's just a potboiler.
I'm like, what the heck does that even mean?It's just a pot boiler, like these little sails that would trickle through.And he said, it's just something that keeps the pot boiling, the pot on your... And I was like, oh, okay, I get it.
Yeah, it keeps food on the table, right?But those things, they can accumulate.And you can get there with the social media thing.
But it's interesting that you say, around COVID, what do you think it was around that time that caused those higher numbers?
Well, people started living online and they weren't going into, they weren't going into those, spaces, those brick and mortar.
And so they also, I think a lot of people for the very first time made an online purchase, not seeing the painting in person.That was a new thing.
People before that, it was a risky thing to do that you're making this substantial purchase based purely on seen an image of a small image of it.And I think people were starting to take that risk, because they didn't feel they had any other choice.
And it, they realized it wasn't as much of a risk as they, they might have imagined.
That's so interesting.I was just, I was just saying, that's, that's really, yeah, you're, you're, I think you're spot on there.
Yeah.But the, a couple of things about that, the first of which, because I imagine, Part of your audience, maybe a large part are, of course, artists who are also interested in how to make it work.
And so that's why I put those little addendums on things that part of my story is the exception and not the rule.But I think we get, or perhaps we put ourselves in a hole or we live in a bubble. we don't necessarily take a logical approach.
I've always told people, because I have advised a lot of people in issues like this, there's no rule that says you can't do both, that you have to either go the gallery route or you have to do your own thing.It's never either or.
And if anything, if you could find a way to do both or to somehow have your, to have multiple streams.I'm always telling people, and in the business world, this is just common knowledge, have multiple streams.
There's nothing wrong with the, what did someone say, the pot boiler?
Yeah, keep the pot boiling.Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, so I have found ways to do that.And if anything, it's beneficial to do that because that is the thing that keeps the food on the table.And now when a large painting sells,
Less common, of course, that's not all eaten up by all of these everyday expenses, it's actual profit.If you have some way of
you know, producing something that's easier to sell, and maybe you're doing it directly, and it's feeding that market that's primarily your social media and those kind of quicker, smaller sales.
They're less significant, but they do add up, as you said. it fulfills a market that those individuals are usually not also your $30,000 painting buyers.You know what I mean?It's almost like two separate markets.So why not do both?
There's certainly nothing.To me, that would be smart.
I think diversification is so important.We talk about that a lot on the podcast.A lot of the artists that I interview, that's become such an integral part of their business model.The way I refer to it is, you're putting legs under that table.
A table with just one leg, well that better be a solid leg if it's going to hold everything up.
but if you have two or three or four and get upwards, you know, six or seven, maybe you can get a little chaotic, but you have more stability that way if you're able to manage it.
So what are some of the other ways that, so I can hear that you've got like some diversification amongst the range and the sizes and maybe the price points that you have, but are there other ways that you diversify your business approach to art?
Yeah, of course.One thing about the gallery show before, because you were talking about like the contact list or the mailing list.
One of my primary galleries, and actually I'd say several of them, but one of them I know for certain, if they print out a little catalog or something, if I'm going to do an exhibition with them, it's somewhere between eight and 10,000 that they're printing.
And so that's their mailing list.
And so as much as I like to join in on the conversation about, you know, how dead the galleries are, well, some of them are, yes, but there's still a lot out there that, I mean, that's more than what most artists could do as an individual, even a really established one.
Just the cost of that, and then let alone that level of have, you know, that kind of a contact list is still very substantial.
Well, in the real world, that's extraordinary.Those kind of numbers are extraordinary.Absolutely.
And so that still exists.So it would, it would be, I think, mistake to just sort of discount that and the times have changed and let's move on.Well, that's fine.If you can produce on that level, then that's that's fine.But I think adapt, but
take advantage of all of it.And I think of it more as streams.I like your analogy of a table, except that sometimes streams go dormant for a time, you know, they dry up.
or not necessarily permanently, but so you're not depending on one stream of revenue while one might be slowing down or it's a season where it's just not going to be producing as much, you're not completely dependent on it and trying, you know, going to get a second job just to keep everything afloat.
What I do are of course my paintings and, like I said, those two different markets, where it's the larger, more substantial things through galleries who have those kinds of contact lists, and exhibitions like the Prix du West now, and
Also my direct sales, which are smaller things.I'm not trying to compete with my galleries, but just the smaller, less expensive things I'm willing to do directly. And then teaching.So I enjoy teaching.
I don't just do it simply to keep things afloat, but I actually enjoy it.And now I started a Patreon.Brilliant.So that's exciting for me and it's doing well.And between all of those, there's always something that can be active.
Awesome, fantastic.I'm glad to hear that you started that Patreon.I'll certainly be checking that out personally.If I can gain a little glimpse in how you do what you do, that'd be exciting.
Right, so one thing that you mentioned there, and this is something that I've said on the podcast before, but I talk about it with some of the business videos on The Online Academy. is that, you know, there are these two approaches.
There's old school and new school.You know, there's more.This is just a way I have of kind of framing this, but I am old school.Like, I came up in a time there was no Facebook, Instagram, nada.
You know, websites were just getting going, and then from there I had to build it, you know, the old school way. And I was so resistant to going forward with social media, YouTube, all of these different things.But now I see the power in that too.
I think the problem is, is that when we take one approach and deny the other, whether it's all, I'm going all online, I'm all in on that.Well, you forget about some of these things, because we live in a physical world.
But if you're all caught up in the physical and you're trying to do things the old-fashioned way, you forget of these tools that can apply massive leverage to your real-world efforts.So I really, I'm such a fan of marrying those two things together.
And I hope, I see some galleries doing an outstanding job with both approaches.And some of them, as they are so resistant to change, something comes along that's a paradigm shift, like a COVID or whatever.
that disrupts the economy, disrupts the way we do things, the way we interface with the real world, and now suddenly you've lost the whole thing.You know what I mean?
Yeah, well, and you know, I was just the other day trying to think, or someone was asking me about like what galleries they should be considering like what was out there as a young artist.And there are so few now that I can even think of.
I mean, as far as top tier galleries that I would be considering, I'm hoping there's a lot of maybe second tier.I mean, I'm not, I don't mean to categorize them.I'm just saying as far as, you know,
presence in the art world and sales and the level of sales.I couldn't think of very many.So times are definitely changing and you've
I think, but like I said, and like you're saying, I think it's a mistake to just think that they're mutually exclusive.You're choosing one and then, like you said, denying the other.That doesn't seem logical to me.It's not a sudden change.
It's an evolving.It's a transition.So you have to you have to transition it or you have to, it's like a blending in the middle of it.Maybe on the other side of this is something obvious and singular, but at the moment it's a blend.
Right. Let me ask you something to just change gears a little bit.As I look at your work and hearing a little bit more about your story, I wonder what drives you?Like what inspires you to get up and do this day after day?
How would you describe yourself?I mean, are you a particularly motivated person?Are you driven?Have you got like a You just gotta do it or how do you approach your work?
And how do you keep showing up the way that you do and producing this kind of painting?It's just extraordinary.So, what's ticking inside there?
Well, it depends on what day of the week it is.
And I say that because I've interacted with so many people.And again, I'm thinking of your audience that are probably artists that are trying to figure it out for themselves or comparing themselves.
And again, that becomes sort of a polarized thing too, where you never compare yourself because that's the thief of joy.And you have people that are purely emotive and emotionally driven.
And then you have people that like me, I compare myself without condemning myself.So I love seeing what people are doing and the successes that they're having, because if they can do it, I can do it too.And, um, And it drives me to be better.
So there's all of these variables.Part of it is that competitive nature.I'd say at the root of it, or the biggest part, would be I actually love what I'm doing.So even if I weren't,
if I didn't have deadlines and things that were pushing me to produce and to do things, I still, if given enough time, I'm gonna get the itch to just do what I love doing.But I have learned that the motivation is in the doing.
And so it's wonderful when it's there before you start, But so oftentimes I'm a procrastinator.And so there are all of these things that sort of inhibit the start of something for me when it comes to painting.
And so I have to just start and disregard any of the concerns or the fears or any of that and just start.And that's when I become motivated. It's sort of a misconception that you have to be inspired and you have to be motivated.
Oftentimes for me, the inspiration comes after I just, I start, I just start moving and making movement.
Do you find sometimes, though, that it can be quite a lot of force you've got to exert to get that movement?Or have you become better at it over the years?
Because from a lot of the people that I talk to, it's just like, I just don't have the discipline.I just don't have the drive. And for me, and it sounds like this for you, but for me, it's a very automatic thing.It's like, well, I just do it.
And then in about 20 minutes, and then suddenly I find that I'm in the mood to paint.Maybe there is a little bit of force applied there, but I just, like, as you're saying, just start.
Within reason, I will obligate myself. because I will produce more, I just know myself.I'll produce more if I know people are depending on me.
So again, that's another reason for me to have the galleries to work with some of them because they're counting on it or they're putting together a show or an exhibition and I've agreed to do it.And so I enjoy, I thoroughly enjoy telling people no
nowadays, but in the early days, I just would say yes to everything because it's not possible to know what you're capable of until you go to the extreme.
Most of us are not aware of what we're capable of until we put ourselves in a position where we have to stretch. And no one really knows their breaking point.
They imagine what it is, but it's probably, if it were a linear thing, our breaking point is probably a lot further down the line than we think it is.But you won't know that unless you push yourself.
And for me, some days I'm good at pushing myself, and other days I know I need to have someone that would be upset if I didn't do that.
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Get the tools you need to create your best work.Thanks so much for allowing this brief interruption.Let's get straight back into the podcast with Daniel Keys.I was just talking with an artist buddy about this the other day.
Um, just yesterday, in fact, um, you were talking, so, so talking there about stretching and pushing yourself, like to know where that boundary is.Personal questions here.Um, forgive me, but what, what does that breaking point look like for you?
Does that manifest as burnout? Does it manifest as just a stop?I'll tell you just personally, I push this thing so hard until the wheels completely fall off that it's a bit of a process to put it back together again and carry on.
I'm getting a little bit better at working out where that line is.I'm like, oh, okay, I'm getting out of balance here and pull back.And I have to be that way now that I'm a father, but how do you find that?Do you mind speaking to that?
Yeah, but I mean, I think you're exactly right.As long as you're paying attention and recognizing what, okay, this is becoming overwhelming, this is where I need to start backing off.
But I mean, at the end of the day, we're talking about painting and just,
basic business so it's not, it's not death, it's not like we, you know what I'm saying, I think we make a bigger deal about things sometimes than we, we have to, I'm not talking about being irresponsible, but
Yeah, I think, I just think the average person, I mean, it would be no, it wouldn't be any different if we were talking about physical abilities, you know, for an athlete or just exercise.I mean, most people don't know.
They don't know what that breaking point is.They don't know what they're capable of until they get to that point.And once you get there, you reevaluate.Okay.I, I, I, now I know how far. I can go or how far I can extend myself.
So now I'm better at, I'm more selective with what I agree to do, how much teaching I want to do, how much online teaching I want to do, or in what way, what platform, all of those kinds of things.
I'm endeavoring to figure that out, what works for me.But in the early days, it was just, push yourselves, just say yes and problem solve and just see how far you can go.Don't kill yourself, but most people can go further than they think they can.
Most, I mean, in any other situation, most people are capable of more than what they really believe they are. And so I think you won't know that unless you accept some of the challenges and see what it's like on the other side of them.
I love that that's here in this conversation.It's so valuable hearing that an artist like yourself, you know, is pushing and is thinking about things in this way.You know, I've often told people similar, you know.
We would be so surprised if we just tried, you know. It's interesting how much, because artists are sensitive creatures, right?
You know, and we're so afraid of that rejection, or what the critics will say, what comments are gonna be on social media, or what if the gallery says no.
You know, we hold ourselves back from so much, that if we actually just put ourselves out there and tried, but then also, like just from a studio point of view, of just being more ambitious with our work. trying that idea that scares us.
Paint that painting.I know nothing about horses.Who cares?Do it anyway.You know, just put yourself.Do you want to do it?Do you love it?Go for it.You know, really go for it.I mean, we're so many of us.We hold ourselves back, don't we?
You know, and I find that, you know, it's it's the brave ones that are willing to go out on a limb that they're the ones that end up blazing that trail and inspiring the rest of us.So, um, Yeah, no, it's interesting.
So, Daniel, there's so many different directions that we could go here.And the podcast is all about, you know, the artist, the art.And I love to get a healthy amount of that business talk in here, because I'm so interested in it.
But I find that that's what, and I really hope that listeners will get
something out of that, you know, find something that they could plug into their creative journey, find an edge, find an inside, something that will help them actually get ahead and succeed.
But is there anything else on the business side of things there that you'd like to throw into the mix of anything that you think is important?You know, one thing I'd like to ask,
and that I do ask some of the other guests that appear on the show is, you know, you did come from a time where we don't have a lot of these tools and things that are available to us today.
What would you do differently if you were starting from scratch, day one, boom, today is Monday there in the US, you're starting fresh, it's Monday morning, what do you do?
Just completely starting over. completely starting from scratch, dude, the the driving force or the number one goal is still the same.Wonderful.And that is skill.You you made the comment about, you know, artists being sensitive creatures.
And I wouldn't say I'm excluded from that.But I think people, they just they're It's like they're, they subscribe to the, they worship their emotions.I mean, they live a life that's purely driven by how they're feeling at the time.
And they also put emotion and feeling on a throne.
in their lives and so they won't even do something unless it has meaning or their whole drive is, you know, how they feel about their art, how they feel when they're making their art and all of this and I don't, that's just not, that's not me.
And so I, that, the number one objective is to develop my abilities to paint or to do whatever it is that I want to do.
If someone does that, whatever the vehicle available, whatever the resources available to move forward in the business part of it or to achieve some success with that,
your skill will attract it or your skill will, when opportunity comes, you'll be able to match that or to take advantage of it or whatever.So that would not change.But I guess the practical thing would be now to build your,
your visibility and social media is so great for that.I do still, I'm adamant about also building your own website.
Of course, I haven't been updated mine in a long time, but still driving people to my website because if social media changes or if one platform goes out and you got to rebuild on another platform, if something goes wrong, I still have my own contact list.
email newsletter list.I'm driving people to my website, something that I can control.And so that still would be important.And I still today, I still, I would, I would still go the gallery route.I haven't seen anything that matches it completely.
It may not be like the old days where it's as good. But I still haven't seen a clear path that is equal to it.
Because you can do your own, make your own sales, of course, and you can maybe do pop-up shows or something where you're controlling the whole thing.But it just makes sense to have several doing that. You know what I mean?
You're doubling and tripling your efforts.The only difference that I can really think of today is that I'm also doing it.I'm not trying to replace the gallery.I'm just trying to, I'm just doing the same things that they're doing.
So now the two of us, or however many galleries I have, we're all doing it.That's really the only thing that has changed to me.
Do you, while you're working, do you listen to anything?What have you got playing while you're painting?Are you going a little bit further with mindset stuff, business stuff, art history stuff, motivation stuff?What do you listen to?
I usually just put on a 90s sitcom.
Very good.Which one?Seinfeld?Prince?
Uh, Fraser, Fraser, Fraser, all that.I know it's not, that's not the answer that people want to, uh, want to hear, but Kelsey grammar.Oh, yeah.I love my, my, my favorite, but it's, it's not that I don't appreciate all of those other things.
And I, I've, I have, I have, I've been around, uh, some of that.I'm, I'm. I, I've read a lot, you know, but well, I've read old things mostly, but, um, I've been around it or been exposed to business people, highly successful people.
And, and I, I, I try to learn wherever I am and who, whoever I'm with, I try to claim something, but, um, yeah, I, I, uh, I think it's great when people do that and they, they get a lot out of it.Usually, that's just not the case for me.
I guess it's just, I think that's great.It's just that that doesn't, for a listening audience like this, it just, if that's not you, or that's not how you think, or the way that you work, your method is not less than.
And so sometimes, because I used to think, well, gosh, I'm not doing that enough.I should be really, I should be listening to the right things and I should be doing the right things and making this my whole world.And no, you don't have to.
I love that.I mean, yeah, whatever works for you, right?I think whatever puts you in that headspace that allows us to flow.Simply, we're trying to get into flow state, right?
Yeah.Is it working?Because that's the thing, too.People are only really, aside from students or something, people are only ever going to see the finished product.They're not going to see how you got there or what you did.
And I'm not advocating, you know, taking shortcuts and doing what I would consider to be cheating.But essentially, people get caught up, I think, in the wrong things.Like, I've got to get faster.And how long did that take you to paint?
Because I'm very, very quick.But no one sees that when they look at the painting.They don't know if it took you two hours or two years.
people get caught up in the wrong things, you know, what are you, I appreciate the question, like, what are you listening to?Because I'm curious too.
But it's not like it has to be, not everything that I do has to be something important or elevated or, you know what I mean?Or producing some sort of emotional reaction.Usually I just want noise on that doesn't offend me and,
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.I mean, yeah, whatever, whatever gets you there, right?I find that, that it's about, yeah, it's about just cultivating that headspace.And I found that I have to have some chatter or talk in the background.
You know, I saw, I think I saw a post a while ago, you're out there painting with Kenneth Yarris and Richie Carter.And, um, I was so jealous, man.I was just like, Oh, dude, I want to be hanging out with those dudes.That looks like a good time.
You know, how much, how much plein air do you do?And have you found that?I mean, cause you work from direct observation with your still lives, but with as plein air informed much of your process?
Yes, of course.Um, that was a really big thing. for me and I talk a lot about that in workshops that I just, I just got back actually a couple of days ago from the other end of the country, Massachusetts there, Cape Cod.
I don't know if you're familiar with Cape Cod, but so I usually teach a workshop out there every year.So I was just talking about this and one of the things I've learned to do is just
paint, and I tell students this all the time, what do you love painting?Everyone wants to talk about what they love painting.
And then I tell them, paint what you hate, paint what you don't love, what you don't have some kind of an affection for, because that is the, those will be the paintings that will probably most inform you of what your weaknesses are.
And the reason for that is because, and I've noticed this in my own work, if you go into a gallery or a museum or someone's studio, the paintings that are of a subject that I love, I am more lenient with.
Because I'll maybe be doing it with friends and they'll say, well, but this is this is a little off and you you like that painting like well yeah but I those are the flowers, I really like you know you you're just there's it you you allow for.
certain errors or a certain amount of error in the painting because of your affections.
And so you, I'm sure you have students, you run into this all the time where people will find a subject matter, or they'll tell you, I can paint this, but I can't paint that.Or I like painting this, I don't like painting that.
And usually it's just that we find subject matter that hides our weaknesses. because not every subject matter puts the same degree or demand of the basic elements that make up a painting, drawing, value, color, edges, composition.
Of course, composition is the overreaching part that would be in every painting, but not every painting puts the same level of demand on drawing. or value or color or edges.And so for me, I had a real weakness where values were concerned.
And when I would go out painting landscapes, it would help expose that because I didn't have dynamic color to kind of get excited about and hide those weaknesses. Does that make sense?
No, totally.Absolutely.So when you're out there in the field, you're having these aha moments.It's forcing your hand, so to speak, to try and find a way of communicating that value structure, right?
Yes, but the aha moments are depressing because it's the realization that I have a weakness.The thing is, and this is what I tell people, your weakness is your weakness.It's not that the painting that you're producing that you love
because you love the subject matter is void of that weakness.It's still in there.You're just, it's better at hiding it.
So let's say you have an issue with drawing.It's going to show up in portrait and figure painting more so than in landscape.
Right.Yeah.And I can relate to that.Absolutely.Just personally, for sure.
My landscape's stronger than my portraits.Yeah.
Well, because landscape, you can, you, when even a non-artist looks at a portrait, they can tell if the human features are human enough because we're so used to seeing it.
it's not that way with a tree or with a mountain other than maybe a general shape that if it's a recognizable place, there's a lot more room for error because it's not necessary that it be perfectly replicated.
You're not, it's not like a personal, a human where if you don't get the drawing right, you don't have a likeness. You, that person looks slightly different.Even, especially someone who knows that person can tell, well, it looks kind of like them.
Well, that's a drawing issue.So a landscape's not going to put that much, as high a demand of drawing ability.But portraits don't put as high a demand on color.
you can have great drawing and value ability and be just so-so with color and still produce.
I mean, a lot of figurative painters out there, they don't have great color sensibilities or accuracy with their color, but they still produce paintings that people respect and admire and love.
So each one kind of puts a different, it's like a different ratio as far as the demands go. And so sorry, for me, landscapes really helped me identify weakness in value.
So the first first three, four years of going out there to Montana with those those guys, well, not them, but another friend of ours before they came along.They just I, you know, Each painting just bombed.I couldn't rely on my strengths that I had.
They couldn't compensate for my weaknesses in that subject matter.So that's why I thoroughly enjoyed it.And now I love it because it helped me identify those weaknesses, gave me something to work on.
And that of course benefited everything that I painted.Because as I said, your weaknesses are your weaknesses.You're carrying them into every painting that you do.It's just that in some subject matter, they're not as obvious.
So now dealing with that weakness and developing skill, adding strength there, that also goes into every other thing that I paint.
Just quick pause right there.Hang on.I just want to go back.So, you were saying you bombed and then you enjoyed it so much.So, that's really interesting because I've painted with a lot of different artists and students alike.
And, you know, often when somebody's bombing, they're like, I'm hating this.This is horrible.This isn't working out.What's going on?
But I mean, eventually I loved it because I started tackling those issues and now I can go out and paint a landscape successfully. because I worked on those issues.It's just that that then translates into everything that you paint.
The same thing with portraits.When I started out painting still lifes, because that's what I most liked, and many of the things that I would paint were, especially if they're flowers or something, you know, fruit, it's organic, it's very forgiving.
If you don't get the drawing just perfectly, nobody knows because It's so random, and there's such a large margin for error that it doesn't even look like error.
But then I started painting portraits, and that really showed where I was in my ability to get the drawing right.And so, oh, by the way, I just went through your Instagram.You're wrong.Your portraits are amazing. Was that you?
That was you.Well, unless you were on somebody else's Instagram.But yeah, yeah.So I mean, I do both.I do portraits.
I can't believe, yeah, I totally let that slip.No, I disagree with you completely.
Well, I'll let you disagree with me.That's fine.Normally, when somebody disagrees, that's fighting words right there.But I'll let you.I'll let you disagree this time.No, I appreciate it.But here's the thing.I think when we're doing something,
And you mentioned earlier in the conversation about this comparison, this contrast comparison with other people.
When we get caught up in this, Daniel, I mean, I don't know how you feel about this, but the art that's being produced today by artists out there, when I'm scrolling on my phone, just looking just at Instagram, I'm just going, wow, man, it's so good.
The quality that some artists are putting out there, it's so good. And so, you know, I do get into a little bit of that comparison, because there are some giants out there in the painting world.
For me, you're one of them, you know, especially when it comes, no, no, no, I appreciate this.I love how humble you are.
But when I look at your still lifes, for instance, man, I mean, I've got one right here of some roses and flowers, and there's a little,
uh there's a there's a looks like a dutch roamer or like a similar type of green stemmed glass love it but but look but before i go off on another tangent here i i there's there's a question i'm dying to ask you because you were talking about you know paint what you hate what
what would represent something you hate now?Like you're like, I do not want to tackle that.What would be one of those subjects that would just make you shudder if I challenged you right now to paint a 10-foot multi-figure painting?
Yeah, well, remind me.I have a comment on that comparison thing.
But what I hate now, I don't I don't know.Once I came to that realization with the landscape paintings, now that thought doesn't occur to me.To me, it would seem illogical to hate painting something.Or I can dislike a subject matter.
There are lots of things that I have no interest in painting, but my motivation for disliking it is not because I can't paint it.
If so, I mean, I just changed my mind when that occurred that and I came to the realization that I didn't like painting that or enjoy painting it because it exposed my weakness.
Well, now I don't choose to dislike something for that reason, or at least I try to be aware of it.So interestingly, I,
though I have an affinity for, or I most want to paint something that is unusual for someone in their, you know, a guy in his 30s and back in my 20s, flowers and still life.
When I first came in on the scene, it sort of became, when are you gonna paint figures?You know, when are you gonna paint portraits?It was made very clear to me that what I was painting was,
low on the totem pole you know if you're going to if you're going to gain that kind of skill you shouldn't be painting things that um are more important or something and so um i did oh excuse me oh i've got one of those i've got that looks like a shih tzu cross maltese no he's just shih tzu
Shih Tzu, fantastic.I got a Shih Tzu, Maltese, Bichon, real mix.
Beautiful dogs, beautiful dogs.Anyway, so I did give into that a little bit and I'm glad I did.
in that it, I thought, well, okay, I guess the, you know, the top that you're, we're all supposed to be aspiring to is multi-figure, you know, so you gotta learn how to paint people.
And I'm glad that I did because that helped me address drawing inability. And, but once I did start to gain some skill and all, all of that, and now I don't, I don't dislike painting anything, but I just paint what I like.
I feel okay, or as though I have permission, you know, from myself to, yeah, I'm just going to paint what I love because I know, I'm aware of what the weaknesses are or where I am in my skill level and what I can do to improve.
It totally does.Absolutely.Yeah.
I relate to that so much.You know, apparently, please carry on that you were gonna say something about comparison.
Yeah.So the comparison thing, because you mentioned about mostly what you're seeing and what's informing you of what other people's abilities are, are things that you're seeing scrolling, you know, through social media.
The problem with that is, and I'm sure you've run into this, things look so different in person.
And again, that's why I kind of like galleries sometimes, because I can't tell you how many times I've seen something that I thought this was so superior to anything I was doing.
I'd see on someone's Instagram, and then I'd go to the exhibition, and it wasn't that it was a bad painting.It certainly has skill.It's not that, or that it was worse in person, but in person, I could see what they were doing. Right.
And I could get a better, I don't know, a more realistic idea of how they were doing what they were doing.And it didn't seem like I couldn't do that, if you know what I mean.
It's just, if all we're comparing ourselves to is a little square, everything looks, better that way and then so many things look so superior even if they're good they look extraordinary and they still are in person but they're not
It's not this unattainable kind of thing.Understood.
Yeah.Yeah.When we see things reduced down at such a size as well, it's pretty unrealistic, isn't it?And everything looks great when you really compress it down.You're like, whoa, the detail.It's like, hang on a second.There's nothing there.Yeah.
I hear you.I hear you. Okay, I think it would be a crime to have Daniel Keyes on the podcast and not actually get into the technical aspects of painting.
There is something here that I'm really interested in personally, and it's something that I come face to face with every time I paint.So there seems to be a kind of a How do I put this into words?
There seems to be an ease, a particular type of flow, an energy behind this brushwork that you've achieved.So I wanna know everything down to the viscosity of the paint.
So your brush, your paintings are loose and painterly where they need to be, but you've got amazing edge control, and they're broken in just the right way, but they're tight where they need to be, there's sharpness where it needs to be.
Let me start off by asking you this.What are your go-to brushes and do they change throughout your process?
Do you have a different approach to paint application from, let's say, the initial, you know, sketching up of that composition, maybe, you know, with an imprimatur or something? it also appears to be one layer of paint, correct?What are you using?
Walk me through here, your process, but in particular relation to the brushes that you're using.
Well, it's ever-changing, so as soon as someone You know, because they do this in workshops and demos and things all the time.As soon as everyone goes out to buy those brushes, I'll probably find something that I like.
Not on purpose, it's just like, I'm always... One of the things I do, it's interesting.Last week at this workshop on the Cape, I had an assistant and we were kind of laughing about, I had just explained and demonstrated the brush that was in my hand.
Someone had asked about it.I said, well, I can do this with it or this or this.And it looked like 10, different brushes were used, even though it was just one.
And my assistant was laughing later, because he said they still were asking, you know, the next the next one, like, well, what brush is that?And he's, he's like, you literally just showed them how you could take any brush and make it
mimic another brush, you know, um, you just have to, and that's not a magical ability.You're just, you're just using it.You're exhausting the possibilities of it.Um, so sometimes I, I am using just a couple of brushes or a couple types of brushes.
Um, I'm using many of them because I want to keep them really clean and I don't feel like cleaning them.Um, But it's more so the control.Whatever brush is in my hand, within reason, I'm gonna make it do what I want.
And I very much dislike when I see paintings that look like they were painted with all one brush.But the issue with it is not that it was painted with just one brush.The issue I have with it is it was painted with just one kind of brush stroke.
Do you know what I'm saying?
No, I know exactly what you're saying.I know exactly what you're saying, but I still got to know.I still want to know what this brush is.Like, I'm looking right now, Camellias, Pansies, and Roses, which was recently sold at Legacy Gallery.
So I'm looking at this in particular, and I'm just looking at the edge quality on this rose right where it meets that purple.Is that a violet?It looks like a violet. It's the right color.And it just looks beautiful.Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And there's a there's a pansy and there's a blue, a blue teacup here with a gold rim around it.Absolutely beautiful.
But it looks like a gold, like some sort of thin.
You know, I just, um, I didn't have anyone telling me that this is how you use this brush and this is how you hold it and all of that.So part of it maybe just comes from that.
But if it looks like it was painted with a small round, you know, a small, like something you'd sign a brush with, it wasn't.It was probably painted with a big flat.
I would have guessed, right?Yeah.
So I primarily use flats.Of course, I use all Rosemary & Co brushes.
Oh, brilliant.Sponsor of the podcast, by the way.
They're the sponsor of the podcast, by the way.
Oh, good.Well, there you go. They're the sponsor of all of my paintings.They really are.
That wasn't planned, folks.That wasn't planned.
No, they're exceptional.I wouldn't use them if I didn't love their brushes.I do love them too, but I, of course, knew the brushes first.Right.Right on.So I use mostly flats and they have a red dot series.
Dude, I love that brush.I love the red dot brush.So are you using the long flat or the short flat?
Because the longer, this would be like initial stages of a painting.The longer the hair, the more flexible it is.
But when you're first putting down that first layer of paint, I need it to move. And if it's too flexible, you know, it just won't push the paint around.So the shorter the bristle, you know, the more it becomes, it pushes.
And then I usually switch from that for the second layer.I know maybe at times it looks like one layer.Sometimes it's always multiple layers.Sometimes it's a thin layer and then layers of paint over that.Usually a thin layer, a block-in layer,
without any medium, but thinly applied, I guess, and then another layer on top of that with thicker paint.And usually that final layer after the block-in would be the Eclipse combers.Have you used those?
Oh, wow.Yeah.Okay.So I've got some evergreen combers here that they've just sent me to play with.I've never used those.The evergreen is a slightly stiffer.
Oh, I know the evergreen.I'm saying I didn't know that they made evergreen combers.
Yeah.So I've got one here.I think they're calling them edge birds. edge birds.I got them right there in the packet.I'm looking at them right there.Um, but the, the eclipse dude, the eclipse fiber is one of my favorites.I love that fiber.
Uh, and I use their long filberts and the eclipse.I found them.
So yeah, usually the long, uh, or the, like the filberts
would also be more in the earlier stages of the painting for me, but the final stages are almost always with the eclipse long comers because I like the way that they, I want a random looking brush mark.
I don't like repetitive, I just don't like repetitive brush marks.I get caught up in that when I'm looking at a painting that they just did one kind of brush stroke.
And looking at your paintings as well, there's no repetition in there that draws the eye and distracts you from the overall composition.I mean, we get to just look in awe at this beautiful interplay of color and light and contrast.
And again, such a treat to have this conversation with you and just really Yeah, learn a little bit more about you, Daniel, because I've been watching from afar for a very long time.
When you were first, I think it must have been way back when you were first on Facebook.I wasn't even on Instagram for years and years after. But really, really cool to just have a chance to talk to you.
Is there anything else you'd like to throw into the mix?But I just, just so appreciate your time here today.Anything else you'd like to mention or talk about on the podcast here?
Oh, no, I mean, I, I usually am just better at answering questions.But no, I just, I guess. Like I said, I have what I think is some of your listening audience in mind.I appreciate that.
Well, when I talk about art, I tend to emphasize maybe the side of the brain that people are, you know, the artist isn't supposed to, I guess.
It is all, it's creative and of course you're producing something and hopefully by the end, people look at this and they have this wonderful experience and this emotional reaction and that sort of thing.
And I have that when I'm inspired by something or I'm setting up and I'm composing.
But once I'm done setting up this composition and I've reacted to this item or this person or these objects or these flowers, whatever it is I'm going to paint, it is put aside and it becomes all about the science of drawing and perceiving value and identifying color
and making edge choices based on reality, not just making them up.
And so for me, it's not an emotional experience and I'm not trying to, and I don't skirt around the issue of if I got the drawing wrong, I didn't capture the essence of the person or the essence of the flower or some other silly kind of expression.
The drawing has to have a certain amount of accuracy.The values have to be, correct relationships, those kinds of things.It becomes technical for me.
And I don't, I just have made an effort not to get caught up in what the art part is while creating it.And that is what I assume people are seeing and recognizing this skill.And because of that, they do have an emotional response to it.
Because it's well done, or every brushstroke is so thought out and calculated, not felt.Does that make sense?
And I think if someone is a beginner, or they're just starting out, just focus on on skill, on arriving at skill, do what you have to do and don't worry about all the fluff.
Once you have the abilities, once you've gained enough skill in those elements, drawing value color edges, then it becomes about expressing whatever you want or saying whatever you want with your paint.And it's like you have the tools to do so.
But the act of doing it is not just, you know, some kind of ethereal experience.It's, it's just, it's actually very logical and calculated.
Hmm.Yeah.No, I appreciate that.So so Before we go, what's next for you?What's on the horizon?What's something that you're really looking forward to?Is there another step or a project or something that you're going to be working on here?
Have you got any workshops coming up where people might be able to join you and learn from you?What's next?
Yeah, my website has info on that.Like I said, I started a Patreon and I really want to explore that and build it.And I've had a good response so far.And so I'm kind of looking forward to that.
Kind of full circle with, we've talked so much about galleries and the way that the art market is going.Something I am starting to go in the direction of is Here in the States, there's a very big Western art market.
My art is certainly not Western, but I do live in the West, and it seems like my work is appreciated by those same collectors in that market. And so I started to do, I don't know if you've heard of Creed West.
Oh yeah.Yeah.I'm familiar with it.Yep.Yep.
And a lot of the guys that have started to do that, it has become a big part of their whole year.
Because they're doing big museum paintings and that and a few other shows for some of them become their whole year where they're not necessarily putting out all of this other work.
I'm sure they are, but more just sort of direct or they're filling their galleries with things, but primarily focused on these large, important paintings.
And so I can see things kind of going that direction for me, where I can, I have enough going that I'm paying the bills, but I can focus on
what I just really want to paint, the compositions I want to do or the sizes even that I want to do, because there's an opportunity to put it out there.Amazing.
We will continue to watch with interest.Daniel, just want to say a huge thank you for being on this episode of the Creative Endeavor podcast.
Well, I really hope you've enjoyed this episode of the Creative Endeavor podcast and a huge shout out and thank you to Daniel Keys for joining me.Now, right now you can find Daniel's work on Instagram at Daniel Keys.
That's D-A-N-I-E-L-K-E-Y-S and on his website at www.danieljkeys.com. Make sure you're following his fantastic artwork there.And again, what a pleasure and a treat to talk to somebody like Daniel on the podcast.
I got so much out of this and I really hope you did too.So if you enjoyed the podcast, then please do me a huge favor and leave me a rating or a review on whatever app or podcast platform you're listening on.It makes a huge difference to the show.
And also while you're at it, if you wouldn't mind, do me a solid and share this to your social media. help spread the creative endeavor with more people.I really, really appreciate that.
Well, thanks so much for spending this time with me here in the studio.It's been a pleasure having your company here once again, and I'll see you in another episode of The Creative Endeavor.
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