Being a career artist is not an easy business.It's just not.That being said, the tools that we have today sure do make it a lot easier if you're smart about it.Say you've got 5,000 or 10,000 people on your page, right?
And 1,000 of those people are willing to spend $100 supporting you in a print or whatever.You've got 1,000 people investing in you and your product.Well, suddenly, you're now eking out $100,000 wage.
Welcome to the Creative Endeavor podcast, where we explore the lives and journeys of those extraordinary artists around the world who bring their creative vision to life.
From overcoming creative blocks to building meaningful connections and thriving careers, this podcast offers you the stories and strategies that will help you navigate an ever-changing art world. Welcome to the podcast.My name is Andrew Tishler.
It's an absolute pleasure to have your company here once again.In this episode, I'm talking to Renato Muchilo, who's a brilliant artist that I've been following for many years.He's based in Vancouver, Canada.
Now for me, Renato really is the definition of success.He's doing exactly what he wants to do.He's been doing it for decades and he's forged an amazing career, selling virtually everything that he paints.
I find not only his work super inspiring, but I find him as a person really inspiring.Now this conversation was a great opportunity to geek out about the craft of painting.If you wanted to know how Renato does what he does,
Well, there's a huge portion of this conversation where we talk shop and I got a lot out of that, let me tell you.But what I really love is Renato's approach to his business and his career and how he's built something on tried and true principles.
Now, how many of us today are in such a rush to get there in this fast food culture, Instagram clicks and Facebook likes and instant gratification and really wanting to get there so fast?
A lot of us can have the tendency to forget these old school approaches.Now, I'm a big fan of taking the new school and some of the technology that's available to us and marrying that with an old school approach.
But exactly what kind of old school approach?What are those lessons?What are some of those strategies?Well, Renato, who I appreciate so much, is a real open book when it comes to how he's built what he's built.
And a huge takeaway for me, I'll just let you know, spoiler alert, from this conversation, was that slow and steady approach and building something that's based on win-win relationships.
It comes down, at the end of the day, working with people that you know and people that you trust and really fostering a beautiful, friendly, mutually respectful relationship with people that are representing you or whoever you happen to be in cahoots with building an art business.
There's many different ways to do this these days and that's a wonderful thing about being in today's art world is there's so many tools that are available to us.I just really love how Renato's done it.
All right, before we get stuck into this episode, I just want to take a quick minute and tell you about this podcast sponsor, Rosemary & Co.Brushes.Now, I got to tell you, Rosemary & Co.have changed the game for me.
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And one more thing before we get into the podcast, just want to remind you that there's an official video version of this podcast if you want to see Renato in his studio and where he's talking about some of his work.
And also I have my editor cut in some images of what we're talking about, some of the close-ups of some of these paintings. then make sure you check that out right now on Tisch Academy.
You can find that by visiting tisch.academy or click that link in the show notes and I'll see you over there.
For just the very basic bottom tier of the studio subscription for Tisch Academy, you have access to the official video version of the podcast along with over 300 hours of painting content. It's really more content than you could shank a brush at.
So if that sounds like you and you want to check out the video version of the podcast, you can find that on Tisch Academy.And I thank you for checking that out.All right.I cannot wait to get into this episode with you.
But before we do, just make sure you're following Renato right now.If you're not already doing so, he can be found on Instagram at RenatoMuchilo, all one word, underscore fine, underscore art. That's R-E-N-A-T-O-M-U-C-C-I-L-L-O.
And on his website, renatomuchilo.com.Make sure you're following his stunning artwork over there.You'd be glad you did.He certainly is so inspiring.He really is extraordinary, the way he does what he does.
And I certainly always get something out of talking to Renato.So here he is, this is Renato Muchilo in the creative endeavor. Renato Michielo, welcome back to the Creative Endeavor podcast.Such a pleasure to catch up with you again.
Good to be back, Andrew.Good to be back.Thanks for taking the time and having another chat.Round two.
Likewise.Yeah, yeah, yeah.No, I appreciate your time, man.And I'm excited to get into whatever we're going to talk about today.Often, I start these things off with without much of a plan.
You know, I used to have a set list of questions that I'd ask, and I just found it just made the conversation not flow as nicely.But it's just wonderful to have a chance to to catch up with you and hear what's going on.
And so why don't you, uh, why don't you catch us up?Because it's been a few years since you were on the podcast last, and I've been following along on Instagram and, and you've been posting some amazing work.What are you working on right now?
What's new in your world?What are some of the things that are exciting you?
Well, I mean, it's, uh, I'm just getting back, uh, getting back into the studio.Uh, now it's we're, we're getting into the end of summer and, um, So summer is always kind of hard to be inside, right?
You know, we have such a short window of weather here on the West coast that I kind of, I take kind of a teacher's schedule where, you know, I work from September to June and then June to, you know, end of August I take off.
So yeah, I mean, you can kind of see, I normally don't do interviews from my studio.I'm usually upstairs in my office, but I figured something different.So yeah, you know, it's, it's, it's just one of these things.I get a,
I don't get a chance to chat to people from this chair very often.But yeah, I'm just getting back into... I've got all of these paintings around me that they've been kind of...
wearing out their welcomes, let's just say they've been here for a while.I've started them and now I started with other projects and put them down.
So now it's I'm kind of getting back into finishing all the pieces that I'm just starting and getting to get getting working towards kind of my winter.
We do a winter group show here on the coast and hopefully start thinking about possibly doing another solo show on the East Coast for next year, depending, or possibly 2026.And we'll see what happens.What else is happening?
Getting ready to do my first print release. We had this conversation.Oh, yes, we did.Yeah, yeah, yeah.Yeah.So I've been kind of tossing, juggling the idea of doing it again.It's been my goodness.My last print release was done in 1996.Dirt.
Yeah, I know.It's it's been a while.And but you know, I'm just getting inundated by people who are like, Hey, do you do any prints?
Put me in line for that one.
Yeah, yeah.I just I kind of just dug my heels and it was like, No, no, no, I don't want to do it.I don't want to do it.And, you know, as I'm getting a bit older and, and, um, you know, I'm going to be going to be 60.
No, you're not.Uh, in May, what, what, when's your, when's your birthday in May?May 2nd, May 2nd.I'm May 5th.So not, not too far after.There you go.
We're all, you know, we're all kind of clustered up at the beginning of May.Good stuff.
Uh, yeah.So, you know, and I'm looking at it and, I mean, life's priorities have changed since the last time we spoke.I mean, it's it has to have been, what, five years since we.
Oh, gosh, has it been that long?Maybe.
Was it pre-COVID?Was it pre-COVID?
We spoke we spoke together just just privately because we were talking about Prince and this wasn't a podcast or anything.
I was just hitting you up about, hey, how would how would Renato Michielo do Prince, which I'd love to get into a little bit more as well.But yeah, gosh, man, it's been too long.It's been too long.
It's our last interview.It's, it's, I mean, a whole lot has changed a lot in my life and, uh, lost my dad, uh, yeah.
And, um, mom was diagnosed, uh, shortly thereafter, actually she was diagnosed prior to his death, um, you know, with dementia and we, uh, you know, we were dealing with, uh, with my father before he passed away and his illness and stuff.And,
Um, and then he did, and then we kind of discovered the severity of my mother's dementia.And, um, I think we all kind of just stopped our lives in our family to, um, take care for my mom, uh, try to keep her in the house for as long as we could.
And, and that sort of thing.And, um, we were lucky enough, um, about a year and a half ago, we managed to find a, you know, a really great care home, um, that took her in.And so life is kind of.
kind of gotten back, kind of back to, I wouldn't say back to normal.We're just juggling, my brother and my sister are just juggling new things, right?You've got a sick parent.It's just, you don't know what's coming your way from day to day.
And the other, not long ago, she had a heart attack just two weeks ago.
it was just like, oh man, you know, just, just when we thought everything was kind of, you know, getting back to somewhat of a normal state again and something else happens, but you know, she bounced back on her feet, literally within hours of having it.
And yeah.So, but that, I mean, that's what life has been like for the last and I moved and, and, you know, got newer, newer studio, bigger studio and, you know, your home and stuff like that.So, but yeah, just,
just trying to kind of keep on the track, right?Working at my gallery out here on the coast, they switched ownership.So it was re-establishing new relationships and everything.
White Rock Gallery, which is over in White Rock, British Columbia, which is not not far from Vancouver.So yeah, new owners are fantastic people.
But again, right, it's it's their new owners, right, doing things differently and establishing new, you know, new relationships and that sort of thing.So yeah, I mean, life is life has been a real interesting mix of new things.
I hear it.I hear it.And one thing I appreciate about you is sometimes you'll make a post on your Instagram of a personal nature.I'll never forget a post that you made of you cutting your mom's hair.There was just such a sweetness there.
And I could tell that she's such a huge part of your life.
So I appreciate your willingness to share some of that personal story with us, because a lot of us are following you and your work, and it's nice to see a bit more of the man behind the work as well.By the way, was that Fekashi you were making?
You posted this yesterday?
Oh, I did that?It was so good. I made that for my mom, right?So usually when I go and see my mom, you know, this was the thing, right?I try to do for her what she did for us, right?So I'll bring little bits and pieces of home to her, right?
So, you know, her favorite things and that was, I mean, it's just my love of cooking as well, right?
But I think it was as much for me.
I didn't even see the name on that post until after.I was like, oh, Renato's posted this.I was going, oh, that does look good.
It was so good.Yeah.I mean, it's like edible science, right?It's an art.So, I mean, this is something that a lot of people don't know about me as a painter is that option B for me in my life was culinary arts, right?
So, yeah, I really, really wanted to go down that road. Um, when I was in high school, it was like, you know, being an artist, I knew I loved, you know, what I did, um, you know, as a painter at the time.
I mean, I was a kid, but I loved cooking and I was, you know, not bad at it.And, um, at least I thought anyway.Um, but yeah.And, you know, painting one out, but I, you know, I still have this, this great love and passion for food.
So, and my heritage, right.I'm Italian.So, you know, it's just kind of personal.
You kind of have to, right?With the Italian heritage, it would be a crime if you weren't making something amazing.
You're missing out on the best part of life, right?
It's cool getting a glimpse into your studio right now and seeing these works.As a painter, I'm looking at some of these unfinished paintings, one of them just here to your right.
It's interesting seeing the process here, just shifting gears a little bit.That is probably the most detailed block-in.It's almost like you're not even blocking in.Can we talk shop and really geek out about some painting for a little bit? Awesome.
So you're working on it looks like you're working on some sort of ground there.What is that a raw sienna wash in premature?
It's this is actually just gosh, this is an ochre probably with a little bit of cad yellow in it.And wow. to brighten it up.And again, like, you know, with these things, right, I'll kind of get my teeth into a painting and block in real quick.
But I mean, even my block ins, this was last night's work and or this was anyways, and hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on, this, this pain, it's pretty big, you've gone from the top of the sky all the way down to that.
or just the band of hills.This is what I was telling you these, this pain kind of started about a year ago.
Years ago, right.And I kind of started it and I couldn't quite figure out what direction it was going.And I mean, I don't I don't do a whole lot of drawing on my paint, like my, my panels or my canvases.
Like I just, I don't, unless it's really intricate and I feel like I need to do it.I just kind of freestyle.Right.And I really, I find that, um, the more restricted to lines I am, right.
Something about it just drives me a little crazy and things start to kind of look a little static.And I just, I like going in and going, okay, well. Let's just do a wipe of, you know, color here, right?And just see what happens, right?
And just kind of composing these things and bringing out strong, you know, the elements that are most important, right?And using, you know, these tone grounds to kind of shine through and guide me through these things, right?
But leaving a lot of this kind of showing through.And this is how I work, right? It doesn't always work.Hence a painting being parked for two years, right?You know, it's just one of those things where, yeah, I just kind of put it back on the easel.
It's like, there's so much good in this, on this panel, I just, I don't want to toss it, right?So, if it goes,
do a little bit more playing, you know, it may get finished in a couple of weeks, it may sit for another couple of years, if things don't go the way I feel they should.
I appreciate that.You know, so many of us are so many of us want to toss or burn the painting, when it's not working, you know, and, but I like I like what you're doing there, putting aside on the Academy, we call that cook time.
You got to let that idea cook a little bit like a fine Italian sauce.Here we go.Exactly.You got to let it cook down.Yeah.
You know, you may not have an answer to that question right now, but it doesn't mean you're not going to have an answer to it a year from now after you've done another 50 paintings, right?Wow.
That's how it is, right?You know, sometimes those things just aren't meant to be finished when you'd like them to be finished.
I'm astonished at the speed at which you work.And so, let me ask you this.
So, looking at this, so for people listening to the audio version, I hear watching Renato's Zoom call here, and I can see, so this profile of this painting that you're working on, that looks like gator foam, or is it ACM panel, or is it a linen panel?
Yeah.This is an acid, well, what I've done, I really love to experiment with different surfaces, kind of substrates, right?I prefer panel, wood panel.It's just, you know, but they're getting bigger and aluminum as well, the new aluminum panels.
They're really nice, but they can get heavy, right?And God forbid you drop one. especially on your foot.
And let me tell you, sharp edges there.It can be brutal.And if they bend, they bend.And that's, you know, that's it's done kind of thing with these.What I've done with this, I did like three or four of them.
I had the guy that has my canvas or he he built my my stretchers and does some of my framing.And I had him cut a bunch of panels.And these are acid free archival foam core panels, Gator, I think it is or something.Yeah.
And then had him dry mount canvas onto it.So we're using like a Fusion 4000, which is an acid free heat activated film.Right.So they basically put it onto a dry press.Right.And lay the canvas down.And I use a specific canvas that I get.
And it's basic.It's 11 duck, which is really, really finely woven and really tightly woven basically tent canvas is what they use it for, right?
And then they treat it from that point for their industrial uses and you, you know, wash it out and you can, you know, put the GAC on it and use it as a substrate, kind of like linen, right?
But it doesn't have that tendency to have such rigid qualities when you're trying to stretch it like linen does.Linen is, there's a, you know, it's just an art that I haven't mastered as far as stretching.
I always seem to get buckles in linen, so I like to actually mount it if I can.But this canvas is just so beautifully smooth and tight and, You know, and if I need to, you know, they can reheat this surface and basically lift that canvas off.Oh, wow.
Yeah.It's so and it's light.That's the other thing.Once it's in a frame, you know, it's you're only dealing with the weight of the frame.
You're not having to deal with, you know, a 24 by 30 or 36 or whatever, you know, the weight of wood panels, which Man, they get heavy.They can get real heavy.Yeah.So I've always been a guy that likes fairly rigid surfaces to paint on.
Extraordinary.So I suppose with all of that fine detail, the bounce and the canvas, that
you know, give, it would be, I find if I'm trying to do a real detailed painting, mind you, I probably don't go to the, oh, maybe actually, no, to be fair, on some of my paintings, I probably do go to pretty intricate line work, you know, and brushwork.
Actually, that said, Renato, you're a lot looser than I think people give you credit for.When you get up close to a lot of your pain, I do appreciate how they fall apart.
But that give, is that something that you find is a little bit distracting, a little bit tedious?
I just, yeah, there's something about that flop, right, that springiness, because, I mean, I like to go in and I love wiping surfaces down, right?
I'll take it back or, you know, use a bit of, you know, rag and solvent and stuff and, and just kind of wipe away or push in with an old crusty brush right into paint film.And when you start doing that with canvas, it kind of like gives right.And
the more you push, the more it stretches.And then suddenly you're, you know, you're left with this real kind of loose, you know, loose surface to work on.Right.So, yep.
I've got that right now.That's a nightmare.And I turned the thing around.I hammer in those keys.Yeah.
Yeah.Respraying with water and, and, um, yeah, and it's just not, it's not good.So, um, you know, just working on, on this, the surface or, or just harder surfaces of my thing,
So, do you ever change the color of that imprimatura, the initial colored ground?Okay, so what are some of your go-tos?So, here we got the ochre and a cad.
Yeah, this is quite a bright one for me just because of the nature of kind of this scene and kind of the light source, you know, strong light sources, right.So I like having this kind of just show through and it works to my advantage.
Later evening type paintings, just kind of looking, you know, if you look over there, you'll see one done, you know, a much
deeper kind of transparent red oxide, you know, and that again, you know, sun coming from behind, right, silhouetting everything and just kind of burning edges and making all of these opaque objects just kind of glow with with light, right?
But, and, you know, overcast days, you know, there's, again, that's something that's a little different.
Again, you're dealing with like, you know, raw umber with, you know, hints of blue in it and just thin washes just to kind of gray and neutralize the stark white canvases, right?
And that's really nice to work on because that is kind of the color of light that you're gonna experience, you know, throughout the day on a scene like that.
I love that you're changing it up depending on the type of scene that you're doing.I was just gonna say, what is it about working on the stark white, though, that you find an issue?
It just, you know what, doing a tint, doing a tint, you know, doing a tint, it just, it kind of it kind of meets you in the middle, right?There's a lot to be kind of extracted just from that alone, right?
So it just seems so daunting when you're looking at something white and you're like, okay, well, I've got to cover this, right?And I find that, I mean, first off, you're dealing with a harmony, right?
And this is a really beautiful way of harmonizing paintings, because if you're allowing a little bit of this to kind of show through, in really thin, thin layers and go to a museum and take a good long look at some of the master's work.
And you're shocked when you see how much of the underpainting is actually showing through.And people have this tendency, and I did for eons, that they were so busy covering up the white surface because there's very little white in a landscape scene.
the brightest of brights are white, the rest... you know, they're somewhere kind of in the middle, right?And when you, you know, when you're doing this sort of thing, it just kind of takes you down, right?
Sorry, the sound that you hear in the background is the dog.He's literally... He's rolling around.So, yeah, it's, it just, it makes it a little bit easier to kind of go into these paintings and, you know, kind of, you know,
it's like I said, it's kind of the middle ground, right?You're already established a lot of things just by doing this, right?And you know, these are your highlights for, you know, when you're halfway down into the values and stuff like that, right?
And keep your whiter whites and your lighter lights up top into the focal points and that sort of thing.So it just doesn't seem nearly as daunting as looking at a straight white canvas.
Yeah, I can't I can't do the straight white canvas.I just Oh, there he is.What's his what's his fellow's name again?Sam, Sam, Sam, the ham is a gorgeous what he's a French bulldog, right?
Yeah.Beautiful.Hey, Sam.We've seen Sam on Instagram several times.
He's again on top of the issue with my parents.He he had a real tough go a couple months ago as well.And through a bunch of surgeries and stuff.Just Yeah, so
Sam's lived to tell the tale, here he is and fighting for them.Look at him. Yeah, I appreciate this approach that you've got.And how much of it is informed by the masters?
I mean, as you say, when you look at these paintings in museums and in collections, that's what gave me that cue.It's like, hang on a second, they're not working on a white canvas.
There's an underpainting there, there's an imprimatura, there's a wash, whatever it is.
One thing that got me on that track was the burnt sienna that Constable would use behind a lot of his landscapes and there was this bright red that came through and I was like going, what is that?
And I remember looking at a section of trees that was unfinished and it was just the red wash and I was like, oh that looks kind of weird and gaudy and I've never seen autumn trees that are quite like that and I was like,
Oh, dude, he didn't finish the painting.That's what he was working on.It's like, of course.It was like this light bulb moment.
But then once you see that, you start seeing it all kinds of places between the gaps in the brushwork on an Edgar Payne painting and this, whether it was a raw umber or a sienna or whatever he was using, but there was this warmth that would come through on some of those.
I just, I find it that, like you say, to knock that tone down is, It's a vital first step, because if you're trying to paint light, you can only go as far as your most reflective light.
And you're already starting there when you're working on the white canvas.You've got to fight with it the whole time to knock it back.
People have a tendency, I did too, to start painting really dark, right?And it's amazing when you tint a canvas, right?Just something as simple as, it doesn't matter what, you know, whatever color you're using, right?
I mean, you'll figure out what works best for your work.But, you know, earth tones for me are the are, you know, and depending on on the sort of scene I'm trying to convey.
But yeah, I mean, you lay down a wash, and suddenly just wipe down, you know, wipe down your sky, bang, right, and wipe down highlights within the landscape itself.And suddenly, you know, you everything just starts to make sense.
And you're, you're able to kind of register your values just a lot easier.So, yeah.
Hey, Sam, Sam, Sam's happy.
Really interesting getting a glimpse here in the studio because now like I can see your your palette tableau and and the paints are out and I can see I can see a cheeky bottle of liquid original just over your shoulder there.There we go.
Well, you know what?Let me ask you about that.Your approach to mediums.So I would think that your technique would benefit from something that dried a little faster so you could get right into that layering process.
So are you Liquin pretty much all the way?
I'm pretty much Liquin all the way, but I'm starting to kind of use a little bit more of the Gamblin products.Liquin is, you know, it's it can be a bit strong sometimes.
Yeah.I mean, it can be a bit stinky and you spend too much time around it and you start falling asleep on your feet, right?
Oh, goodness.I don't know if I got it quite that bad.
I don't know. I'm kidding.But you know, it can just be it can be a bit much sometimes, you know, especially working on larger pieces.It's just like, I mean, I'm always, I'm always, you know, placing my
my mediums as far away as I can from where I'm sitting, right?So I'm constantly reaching, right?Or I'll actually do, you know, mixtures of it within the paint I've mixed.
So that way I'm, you know, leaving very little, just kind of raw liquid sitting there to dry, to gas off kind of thing, right?Not that it won't gas off and paint, but it just seems like the paint, you know, masks the smell a little bit more.
Some of the Gamelin products are just, they just seem way more studio friendly, you know?
Yeah, absolutely.My only issue is that certain products I still find get tacky too quickly.And with the Liquin, I mean, I've used it for decades now, and I just find that I understand its window of openness, right?
So it's kind of like, I know I could work on it for an hour or a half an hour in areas, and then suddenly it'll start to tack, and it's like, okay, I'm done.
as opposed to some of the other alkyd-based mediums where they dry just a little too quickly and get a little too tacky. unless you're working a little bit thicker.Right.So, I mean, it's just, it's just kind of adjusting your thinking, I guess.
But, you know, I know that I had a conversation with the folks there and, you know, about adding like oleo gel to the, some of their products, right.Because it is still based.What is it?Hang on one second.I can't, I can never,
fumed silica and and linseed oil or safflower oil depending on the the make or have you got rubelov there natural pigments i don't i've got some rubelov yeah um you know is it rubelov that i've got yeah rubelov yeah I quite like their oleogel.
Yeah, their oleogel is beautiful.I mean, it's so silky.You've got forever to do a painting.I don't got forever, Brian.
It's so nice to use, but man does it dry slow, right?Yeah.But if you start mixing with a little bit of the Nioma gilk, I guess. You can basically add little touches of this to this because some of what this is is in there from what I've been told.
I would add very small amounts of it just to open it up the time on run setup or dry time just a little bit more.Again, I get lazy and I always reach for the liquid just because I'm used to using it.Right.Yeah.And it's just one of those things.
But I think as time as time goes on, I kind of start to need to do that just because I am actually starting to really enjoy having a little bit more time to work on these pieces, especially like pieces like this, where, you know,
working on cloud mass and stuff.And, you know, I can, I can just lose myself into building forms and shapes into these things.
And sudden, you know, you've got to step away, or it's late at night, you're like, Okay, I gotta gotta pack it in for the night.You wake up the next morning, and suddenly everything is set up and you're like,
Yeah, I need to do more on this.Right.And then you're basically starting over.
So yeah, yeah, that's, yeah, that's the drawback I found with the liquid.But yeah, sorry, go on.Go on.
Yeah, no.And this is one of the reasons why I'm, you know, talking about prints, right?I'm jumping back.Is that, you know, with how my, you know, with my career being what it is, especially over the last 20 years, right?
It's just like, show after show after show after show, right?So you're just continually working, right?And you've got deadlines, you've got deadlines.
And, you know, you're wanting your paintings to, to be available to you to continue to work on as quickly as you can, right?And with the idea of doing prints now for myself, I'm aching that
those deadlines kind of away because I'm looking at being able to now work on paintings, not doing the 50, 60 pieces a year, right?
For shows and for sales throughout the galleries, just be able to do like, okay, let's do 20 pieces a year and allow just a little bit more time to be able to work on these pieces, right?And not worry about
drying up by tomorrow so I can continue to work on them.It's just like, okay, let's just slow this down a little bit.
Let's do some major paintings, some big stuff, and let's just enjoy the process of not having to chase a medium around before it dries, right, so.
I love that.I love that.So, I mean, you see, you found this, I imagine, over the years is this pressure to meet the deadline.It's a pressure to perform in a way, isn't it?And that has got to sap your creative energy in so many ways.
Well, it doesn't it doesn't I find that I work best under pressure.I always write.Okay.Yeah.And I just I find that I'm so easily distracted, right?I've got so many other interests in life, right?And I've mentioned this to you before, right?
I mean, it's it's I just I love doing all of these different things.And it's one of the reasons why I've always loved having galleries, right?It's because I can just do my work.
allow them to do their work and then enjoy the time I have to enjoy the things I enjoy.Um, but you know, it's, it's when there's a show involved or I know that I've got to meet a deadline, it's, it's just kind of like the creative dam just opens up.
And if I can commit all my energy to it, and once I've been forced to, to really sit down at the easel and say, okay, you got to work now, right?No, no, no diddling around here.You've got to, you got to focus some energy here.
Not that I don't normally, but I just I find that creatively, just things just start to pour out of me.Right.
And, you know, I just kind of knock down all the walls that I built for myself distraction and and, you know, and just go to town on being, you know, being an artist, being the artist I, you know, I know I can be right under that pressure.So, yeah.
But how do you That's so interesting.There's so many different directions we could take this conversation.I'm excited to get into all of it. The relationship with galleries is an interesting one for me.
I have kind of crapped on galleries quite a bit in my career and also over the podcast.I don't like giving them the commission, but I do also at the same time know that they provide a valuable service.
So you've managed to strike a balance though that I think is quite admirable because you're in a position where it's like, hey man, you get to paint. you get to concentrate on this, and as you say, let them take care of that.
So, do you think a large part of this, though, is actually finding the right gallery, finding the right people to partner with?
Yeah, absolutely.Absolutely.I mean, it's, you know, I've always, and I've said this, you know, many, many times before, it's, I, throughout my career, and I mean, I've been at this now for 40 plus years,
In all of those years, for the exception of maybe one or two times, did I ever approach a gallery?I always, always had the galleries approach me, right?
Yeah, because I figured if a gallery was really interested in what you were doing, if they had a genuine interest and love for for what you were doing,
they would reach out because they felt that they had place for you or a demographic base of collectors who are was looking specifically for your work right and. you know, and you've got to cherry pick the best ones.
I mean, I've had, you know, probably, you know, two or three dozen galleries over the years approached me, but none of them felt like a fit, except for the, you know, the exception few.
And, and I've managed to kind of keep those, you know, in, you know, good relationships with them over over the years, right.So, and they've done well.I mean, it's, it's, I think, over in the last 20 years alone, I've maybe only had four galleries.
And so what do you think makes a great artist gallery relationship work?What do you think are some of those factors that make sure this is something that can sustain you for years?
Respect, respect, absolute respect.I mean, it just it boils down to, you know, you have to have a true understanding of each other's role in the relationship.Right.They've got to allow you to be the artist that you are.You're not there.
You know, I mean, some of the some of the higher end galleries.Right.I mean, you know, they're they're dealing with gallery or with artists who are established and very well established.
And, you know, I've had galleries try to massage me, you know, over the years where it's like, oh, you know, they really love this or they really love that.And those relationships just stop immediately because it's like, you know what?
Don't dictate to me.If you think that that's what your clients want, then you paint it, man. right.So, you know, this is what you get, sell it, right, do your job.And so, you know, and I understand what my expectations of them is as well, right.
And, you know, just treat my work, treat me with with respect and understand that, you know, if you don't sell it, somebody else will, and appreciate that.Because Yeah.
I love that.I love that you're maintaining your authenticity throughout this transaction, though.I love what you're saying there.And I found this, like, especially early on.No, no, no, no.We want you to be this guy.
You're the rocks and water dude, and we want the red cliffs of Karijini National Park.I was like, fricking again?I've just painted that 16 times.Yeah, we want more.It's selling really great.I was like, well,
you know, there's this tendency sometimes for this over-direction, but the fact that you're able to stick to your guns there and say, no, no, no, this is what I'm doing.So how do you maintain that authenticity?
And also, let me ask, because I loved that we were talking about this stuff.I remember our last podcast well, but you were talking about some of the subjects that you gravitate towards. I guess, let me form that into a question.
I'm having trouble wording right now.But in terms of, A, choosing your subject and sticking to something that you truly believe in, but also balancing this out in a commercial way. I mean, how does that work?
Do you ever worry that this is going to be too, like this drainage ditch, which we were kind of chuckling about in the last podcast, that turns into a beautiful painting?
Do you ever have trouble balancing that out with some more kind of commercial demands?
You know what, I guess maybe with all of the experience I've had over the years, understanding why I paint a subject matter and doing it in my hand, right?I mean, someone else may interpret that completely differently, right?
It's, I guess, just how I view it and how I paint it in the style that I paint in.It just seems to work.It just seems to work, right?
And, you know, there always seems to be this, I wouldn't say romantic, maybe, I don't know, this deep kind of silence to how I portray things, right?Just this really soft, gentle, undertone to it, right?
Even even, you know, with industrial, industrial work, right?I've started shooting, and I'm sure we'll talk about this, but I started using a drone, right?And oh, yeah, yeah.My digital reference material from my drone and
I'm kind of zooming around over industrial areas and stuff like that and you get it and you look at the raw files and stuff and you're like, oh, that's kind of cool, right?You can just interpret that a certain way, right?Whatever way you want.
The way I interpret it always just kind of makes you sit back and just... you know, let a breath out, right, and just kind of enjoy, enjoy it for its feel, as opposed to its literal, its literal mess of being an industrial site.So, I love that.Yeah.
So, you know, it's, it's, and that's, and I've been lucky, because I mean, to answer your question, you know, how they balanced it, I guess I just, I interpret it in a way that's marketable, I guess.
People look at it and don't go, oh, I remember this is the box manufacturing plant over in Port Kells.I could see that.I know that building.They're not looking at that.They're looking at the bigger picture.
it's just a very small kind of part of the bigger picture.And people relate to it that way, but also relate to the fact that, you know, there's a certain beauty in all of it, right?
And I just, I try to really kind of extract the very best of those things as I know how to, so.
Like a song, right?It's like a songwriter, you know, they can all sing about love.But you know, it's it's just one of those things, right?Everyone has a different voice and has a different way of approaching it and a different experience, right?
So it's, you know, everyone, everyone's individual in that subject matter, but it's all kind of universal.So
Well, yeah, but you also have a way of doing this that I haven't seen anybody do it the way you do it.And it's awesome.But what fascinates me is hearing about some of the artistic influences of the artists that I get to talk to on the podcast.
You made a post recently where you were eyeing up a twatchman painting.
Oh, I should have put it upstairs.
Oh, dude, so you even started doing a master copy of this thing, right? And that was extraordinary, because it reminded me of this amazing painting that I've seen before.It's like, oh, wow, yeah.
But seeing a picture of you in front of that thing, it was like, OK, I can see some resemblance.Who else?Tell me about that process of painting the master copy and how that informed the way you do things.Did it send you on a new trajectory at all?
It kind of did.It really made me appreciate edges a lot more dissecting the painting, seeing it, you know, I was lucky enough to see it in two different occasions when I was over in New York.
And, you know, it was just one of those things where you look at a painting and you're thinking like, how the heck did this guy do this?Like, you know, it looks like such a simple image when you see it.It's such a simple image, but the technical
aspect, when you're looking at that thing, you're thinking, okay, you know, this, this is just really mesmerizing, right?Because there's just so many different thin layers, right, going on to, to kind of lend itself in this soft,
blur of an image, right?And you back away from it, and it just all kind of solidifies and you get right up onto it.And all you're seeing is like the lumps of the canvas weave right with paint in between all of these things.
And it's just being kind of rubbed back and softened.And after doing that painting, you know, I went into it immediately using the wrong canvas, I was using a canvas that was way too smooth, right?
So I immediately learned the value of having a somewhat more toothy surface to work on, which I would never use because it inhibits me to do the type of work that I do.
Um, but now I have a whole new respect for it because I know what it can lend itself to.So, um, but yeah, I mean, it was just really a fun experience to, to kind of go through that.
And, and I was lucky enough that I got some really good closeup video of it, you know, when I was there after being chased away by the security, uh, looking around, you know, it was like over my shoulder and like up there with the camera, right.
But the Metropolitan Museum of Art has a really great website in the sense of if you're looking at any of their collection, everything is high def. Right.
And it is these mega files that you can get right up on and get a real good sense of any of their paintings.Right.So, you know, if you go onto their website there and look up, you know, John Sargent.Right.Yeah.
And and it'll pull up its file and you can zoom and click on it and zoom right up on it.It's just amazing.
Incredible.I've just pulled it up now on my other screen.And I can see exactly what you're talking about.Like it's, it is, it is quite extraordinary.Uh, and you can find this file right now on Google arts and culture.
And at a hundred percent, you can, you can zoom in and I see what you're talking about.Like very, the edges are insane.It's almost looking like he's painting on Hessian.It's that, that course.Yeah.
Amazing, man.Like burlap. It is just unbelievably coarse.Wow.
It's a big painting.It's huge.
Yeah, you can tell in this post that you made, you can tell the size of you compared to the piece.
It's 80 by 60.It's a big piece, which caught me completely. Guard the first time I saw it, I literally just about wept when I saw it for the first time.I didn't know it was there.No, it was on the wall.
And I remember walking in and just like, it was like someone had just knocked the air out of me.It was like, Oh, I had this poster in my studio for so long and it faded, right?Like to like grayscale.Right.
And when I saw it in life, it was just like, wow, wow.Okay.
And I mean, it's just everything about it, you know, is it just spoke to me in the sense of, you know, sometimes the economy of information is way better than the indulgence of hours of completely useless detail.
Do you find with your particular process that you have a tendency to put too much into a painting?
Um, I, yeah, I do sometimes.Yeah.And this is why I like working small because it kind of stops me from doing that.Right.
You can get away with an awful lot by pushing the brush through, you know, a paint film and just allowing the brush to kind of dictate, you know, information to you.Right.
And as opposed to doing a workup from a smaller piece and then suddenly, oh man, how am I going to do this?Right.Yeah.Beautiful little marks.How do I, how do I, you know, kind of reproduce this on a bigger scale.And it's just like, so.
The reason I ask you that is because, you know, I found that with my own work.One thing that I've noticed, and forgive me if I'm out of touch here, Renato, but Your work, it seems to be getting more and more simple.
It's like you seem to be finding that balance for yourself.I love it all, don't get me wrong.But especially with a lot of these drone shots, there seems to be a simpler approach to composition and your overall design, shape design.
But I think one thing that people, you know, in a misguided way could accuse you of is, oh, he's so detailed, but they're looking at it on a tiny little bitty phone.
But when I pull it up here on the screen, just looking at your website, it's amazing how painterly you are.When you reduce it down, though, doesn't it look so much more resolved?That's the
you know, don't judge a man by a one by one.
Yeah.Don't, don't judge a man by a thumbnail.Right.
You know, it's serious.Right.You know, it's, it's like, I've seen these and I say this over and over, right.Everybody's like, it looks like a photograph.Well, it's the size of a stamp.
I don't look at the painting.Right.Look at the painting and then, and then tell me if it looks like a photograph.Right.And I guarantee you, it does not.It resolves like a photograph when you step back from a 10 feet. Sure.
But, you know, it's it's I mean, I've seen some highly skilled painters that regardless of whether you're an inch away or five feet away, those paintings are resolved as well as a photograph.And I mean, I that's not my thing.
And hats off to them, because, man, they've got some some very, you know, some very big buckets of patience going into those things.I don't have that kind of patience.I like painting.Right.
And I like watching what paint does and then basically extracting all of these things, right?And pulling it together, right?I think that's what makes painting exciting.
Absolutely.Share with us one more technical question here.What is sitting over there on your palette right now?Can you run us through the colors that Renato Michiello is using?
Are we talking right here?
Well, I mean, it's all, you know, it's all pretty, So, you know, your standard whites, basically, like white, you know, true lead white.Use this with caution kits.
Absolutely.Yeah.But beautiful color.I love the lead white, man.
It's just it's magic, right?It's just I never understood it until I started using it.And I was like, oh, OK, I get this.Right.I get.Yeah.
You know, titanium white, which is, you know, your standard fare enables yellow, cad yellow light, cad yellow deep. Oh, gosh.Cad orange light, cad orange regular, ochre, raw sienna, burnt sienna, transparent red oxide.
I mean, these are all just beautiful.You know, your two blues, three blues, you know, cobalt, ultra, sometimes the yellow, But I'm careful.But you know, Prussian, I like Prussian just for doing certain mixtures.
Prussian's just one of those things where you gotta be really careful with it because, I mean, it's a monster if it gets away on you.But it's beautiful if it's mixed with earth tones, right?Your browns and your brown reds, right?
Like it's transparent red oxide and Prussian make this just delicious kind of gray green, like it's just amazing.
Yeah, for the type of West Coast kind of atomization that I see in the landscape.
It's just like, I'll have to try that.Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.And as far as my greens go, you know, your standard Viridian And the olive green, which is from Gamelin, which is really nice.It's really, really earthy, warm green.What else are we using as far as the greens go?
Chromium, well, chromium, that's kind of one that, you know, that's kind of a go-to as far as, and again, it depends on regions, right?
You know, if you're working in the tropics or, you know, things are just way brighter than, you know, go to like a cobalt teal and do your mixtures from that, right?I mean, you understand that because you're in New Zealand, right?
Yeah.So, I mean, the New Zealand greens, from what I've seen online, I've never been down there, but I mean, they're just so much poppier.They're so much brighter.
Well, the pastures are the rolling countryside definitely is it's like fluorescent.Yeah, the native bush years is a warm gray green, which is kind of interesting.
Yeah.Okay.But yeah, chromium, it just lends itself well. you know, to the sort of landscapes that I see and work with, right?
And again, the cobalt, the cobalt teal is a gray color.You know that.I love that one.Right.It just makes just just beautiful sunlit, super punchy greens.It's just amazing stuff.As far as browns go,
you know, your standard, you know, raw umber, burnt umber, but also really, really love the ash valtum.That is a color that I just did.Oh, right.I haven't played with that.Oh, man.Yeah, no, you have to.
The ash valtum is, it's kind of a, they say it's a mix of like transparent red oxide and ultramarine blue, right?It's kind of like a premix, but it really leans toward the brown reds, right? Nice.Yeah, yeah.
And it's just a beautiful, it's a beautiful paint, transparent, that's really nice to use as underpainting for shadows and stuff, you know, you use really dark passages and stuff.
If you look at a lot of Richard Schmidt's paintings, he does this mixture of the red oxide with the blues and the greens.And that asphaltum is very, very similar in coloration to his mixtures.
And it really works well for overcast days, cool lights, warm shadows.It's just really, really nice stuff.A really great glazing pigment. But again, it's like Prussian blue.
You gotta be real careful with it because too much is just, you know, it's a monster.It'll just take everything over.So, yeah.
Oh, gosh.That's basically it, man.That's so neat.And while you've been talking, I've been pulling up a few of these images of your painting, this chromium marsh that you have.I love it.And I love the little tip of the hat to the color chromium.
That's cool.And I've just pulled up this one crescent moon. Like your handling of color, just again, it is poetry.It's really beautiful.And I geek out about it as a painter.I'm just like, oh, that's so cool how you do it.
Your edges, man, like this is really interesting how the image seems to fall apart so much in the far reaches of the painting.And there's a softness there and you just pull that focus in into your immediate foreground.It creates such a depth that,
you just don't see in a lot of work these days, but they've just got a real spatial quality to them.
Well, that's the beauty of working kind of just styling, right?You know, just have a general idea, you know, you look at an image or you have an idea or a sketch and just basically laying paint down, right?
And just moving it around and creating these edges by either using a really big brush or just wiping back, right?
again, you know, I've always been an advocate of, in my belief, as far as paint goes, it's like paint is at its best when it's at its thinnest, right?And its purest form.Oh, wow.If I can lay down just washes of color, right?
And just wipe back, you know, and allow just those those real, those real,
outer reaches of where paint basically fades to nothing right or it loses all of its all of its chroma those points is where you see the glow of paint at its purest right it's it's you've just got enough it's almost like glazing right you've got just enough.
to show the indication of it right as soon as you go into more opaque or you know you're doing mixtures with any sort of white you lose it immediately right so you know if you can allow some of those beautiful pure edges to kind of show through in the underpainting and you know it doesn't it don't need to be hit over the head with it but just enough
points of interest.It's like wiping back highlights as opposed to using opaque whites or mixtures of pigments with white in it for highlights and allowing the underpainting to show through as a highlight.
you know, where you get, you know, it's, it's like having layers of color gels, right, you know, and how they control color temperatures with lights on on sets and stuff, right, and we put gels over it.
And, and suddenly, you get the same sort of visual, this sort of visual effect, right, where, you know, you get all these beautiful little pops, it's very, you know, impressionist as far as its approach, right, but in a much more kind of controlled manner.
I love that.I love that.That's a real takeaway for me is that it paints at its best when it's at its thinnest.I never would have thought about it that way before.That's, that's awesome.
Yeah, I mean, blue, you know, I mean, it's it's like, I always look at Trent, the transparencies of paint is really important for me.Like, I find that opaque paints just don't like super opaque, like, you know, numbers, stuff like that.
I mean, it's just, you know, it's just a flat, dead color if you lay it in too thick, right?But you know, you you lay it in nice and thin and wipe it back a little bit.And it's kind of like, wow, okay, now you see its true nature, right?
And I mean, these things are, they're, they're intricate, right?
They're not just brown, there's there's browns with greens and browns, blues in it, or, you know, whatever you're laying up beside it, you suddenly, you know, you're extracting, you're extracting these qualities out of it, right?
So, yeah, I mean, it's, it's kind of like color magic, really, you know, color magic, the understanding, you know, the understanding of color theory, right, you know, it's, it's, yeah, I love that.
A huge part of this podcast is the the business side of art.We're talking earlier about your first print run since 1996.Good night.So I I'm curious.So how do you how do you approach this?And just
Also, for the people listening, you know, we spoke maybe two, maybe three years ago, and I really appreciate your time there, and we had a conversation all about limited edition prints.This seems to be, to me, one surefire way that you could
relatively easily diversify your art business and create a little bit of supplementary income.So it seems to be for me just just a real no brainer.You know, you want to find another way that you could have a little bit of
that stabilizing force in your business and whether some of that stuff help you as an artist with your cash flow.
Just, yeah, print some works, but don't just print anything, but, you know, print something that you think would be a commercial success.How do you approach this?Where would you like to kick us off here, Renato?
Because I'm just really interested and curious to hear
how you would approach this, because it's not just a question, as you know, and many people listening would know, it's not a question of like, well, there's a painting, that was a knockout, we'll go ahead and print that.
You gotta think, you know, edition numbers, quality, size, all this stuff.So how are you approaching this one?
Well, you know, it's kind of, this has been a bit of a challenge for me, because I've kind of put an awful lot of pressure on myself as far as First off, I want to do a painting that has never been, that belongs to me, right?It's my painting.
It doesn't belong to somebody else.And I'm suddenly going, hey, I'm doing a print of your painting, right?Right.
Because, you know, it's kind of one of those things where it's like, you know what?They they never knew that was coming and they were, you know, they initially was thinking, OK, well, we're buying an original here.Right.So that was the first thing.
And secondly, it's kind of like now I've I've kind of queued myself up to do a print and it's like, okay, well, which one do I want to do?Right.So now I put all this additional pressure on myself because I want to do the knockout.Right.
It's just like, I want to do something that I know is marketable.
Um, that will be worth the time, you know, going through production and having to fly down into the States to the, to the printers that I will be using and, you know, doing all of those things.Right.Um, so, um,
you know, as far as additions go, um, not entirely sure.I mean, this is, this is kind of, it's still in the boiling, you know, it's still in the pot boiling with me.It's like, okay, well, how do I want to approach this?Do I want to do an open run?
Uh, do it like a time release where I've seen people doing that, where you get 72 hours, order your prints, either you sell, you know, 10 or 10,000, you don't know.Right.Um,
Or do you just go, okay, we're going to print five, 500 prints, and that's it done, or 100 prints done.You know, when I back in the day, when, you know, I was doing prints, initially, I didn't do runs that were more than 500.
That was at that time 500.Because I mean, 500 was a lot of prints back then.I mean, Robert Bateman wouldn't say that, he was doing thousands and thousands, but they were marketing it much, much differently.
feet on the ground, knocking on doors, having people who represented me.I had a guy back East who was my print dealer, right?And he was connected to all the galleries and there was no email back then.It was none of that stuff back then.
He was literally getting in his car and going visiting gallery owners, right?And if you sold 500 prints this way, where there was no pre-purchase expectations, like Mill, I think it was Mill Pond Press,
I mean, they had agreements with their galleries.It's like, if you want to print, you want one, you've got to buy 50, right?So they were selling editions of like 10,000 in no time across the nation, right?But it was super different for me then.
But things now, with our ability to market, ourselves.You know, I mean, life has changed exponentially in the last 10 years alone.I mean, my gosh, I can just, it's crazy.It's just crazy.
But we have as artists, the tools that we have to be able to actually make a viable living, right, as creatives, right, you know, and we just didn't have these opportunities up to this point, right?
So, um, you know, with Instagram now, I mean, you know, we're reaching out to, you know, 200 plus thousand people on, on my page.Awesome.I mean, that is a huge spread, right?That's, that's a lot of people from a lot of places seeing it.
Mind you, the algorithm may have some control of that, that whole situation.Right.Um, but you know, it's, it's one of those things where, um, you know, I'm able to now market. to a very large audience of people.So how do I approach this?
I'm not entirely sure.I'm going to have to do a little bit of, I think, testing, you know, market testing and just do some, you know, some quick posts and say, Hey, what do you think first on A B let's get a sense of, of, you know, what you like.
Do you want me to open edition?Do you want me to do a really, you know, a really small edition? So what makes it financially worth doing, right?
Yeah, no, I love that.I love that.I've pondered some of these things and I've kicked these things around so much and I've learned several ways how not to do it and then several ways to do it.Got burned a few times in there as well.
But this is something that I'm going to be, well, we were just organizing this this morning in the studio.We're going to be photographing two paintings for print next week.
And I'm reminded of my conversation with Mark Maggiore, who sells prints like nobody's business, man.
Like, I remember seeing a post, it must have been on his story, because I never saw it since, but I'll never forget the sprinter truck or whatever it was, the back open and tubes, you're just looking at the ends of the tubes, stacked to the freaking, stacked to the roof, dude.
I'm like, my man, come on. Mark's done it again.
I was lucky enough, Mark, I had a conversation with Mark a while back and he put me on Static Media and I flew down to Los Angeles.Amazing.Yeah, so I talked to the folks at Static and that's who I'll be using and
Uh, they just really, they really have an amazing, you know, um, facility and it's just, it's so small.Like there's, you know, you don't have a hundred people running around.You have a dozen people running around.We're very, very special.
I'm just doing what they do.And I can understand why Mark uses them because quality control is kind of number one in this.Right.And these things take time.So, you know, you gotta, you've gotta be, you gotta time it right.You gotta, you know,
If I go in and go, okay, I'm just going to do 500.So let's print 500.And then basically put it in your file or put it in your bin and let's get my digital or my online store going.And then we can just basically transfer information.
And they basically will go right from photography right from photography to basically dispatching the thing, right?So right from front to back, as far as the process goes.So they've got, you know, they've got people doing each one of these things.
And, you know, and that's just kind of the easiest for me.
It's like, as much as, you know, and I've discussed this and, you know, it's like, well, why, why am I not, you know, facilitating people with their prints and doing all of this kind of, you know, packing and like, Do I really want to do this?
Time is so much better spent, right?You know, creating a painting or, you know, working in the garage or doing something, right?You know, it's, you know, it just let the, let the people who know what they're doing, do what they do, right?
And just pay them, right?You know, it's, it's, it's always, it's always.
Okay, well, let's just say you're not Renato Michilo, artist badass over there in Vancouver, you know, absolutely smashing it out, you're just starting out, but you're on to a good thing, you know it, you've got a reasonable following, let's say maybe 10,000, 1000 to 10,000 followers on Instagram, and you think you could move like 50 prints.
I mean, I what would your approach change then?Because there's, there's a lot of these print houses that people have access to, like, I
Oh gosh, not to name names, but I think places like Fine Art America, a buddy of mine, Samuel Earp, said he, I don't know if it was him, I think it was something else.
It probably wasn't them, but he said he got a print back from this place and then he said the quality just wasn't there.But there are some that, you know, you could self-print that do okay quality.
I mean, you know, so if you were just starting out, you know, would you approach it in that way where you just bite the bullet and do a lot of this legwork yourself? You kind of have to, wouldn't you?
Well, you do.Again, you know, if you're rolling, if you're just doing an addition of 50 prints, 50 is nothing, right?That's a night's work, right?And, you know, it really, it's just a matter of doing it correctly, right?
Making sure that, you know, you've got the proper materials to pack them properly, to get them where they need to be without damage, you know, papers to roll them in.So, you know, the inks aren't sticking to them.This is all experience, right?
people who are not in that industry don't know, right?I mean, to us, some of it's common sense, but it's just one of those things, right?And that's why I always say, pay people to do the job properly.
But for someone who is starting out, I mean, the print quality of some of these printers, these photographic printers is, damn good.I mean, I've seen some of the Canon printers now.
I mean, these are just home-based sorts of printers, large format printers that print really, really well.And with the ability to manipulate, correct, and do all of this stuff through Adobe and
you can tweak your photos and take out blemishes and little light flashes and stuff like that so easily now.Doing it at home, yeah, it's completely doable depending on the size of the editions.
You know, if I was going to do a run of 50, I'd probably think about getting my own printer.Right.
That's a small, you know, it's a small run or go the traditional route and do like a real, you know, real kind of etching and, you know, go go traditional routes and do just do it that way as opposed to a digital reproduction.Right.So.
But it's one of those things where being able to do it on your own, small editions from your home, if you can get the quality up, the paper's there.There's just a bazillion choices for paper.
It's just a matter of having the software and the printer, right?And that's where the money is.So, you know, buying printers is cheap.Buying ink, that's not so cheap, right?That's where you're dumping a bunch of cash, right?
So, yeah, I, you know, I, you know, some of these print houses, I mean, you know, when I was down in LA, just looking at their facility, I mean, God, their printers are massive, like they're just, they're beasts.
And, you know, and I couldn't even imagine what it would take to facilitate ink and maintenance on something like that.Right.So, yeah. It's, uh, but yeah, I mean, as far as, you know, uh, for person starting out, yeah.
Try starting with, you know, small additions and, um, you know, you're better selling everything because that, that says an awful lot when you're looking at somebody's website and it's like, oh, I really like that book, but I can't buy it anymore.
Right.If, if, if they are limited editions, true limited edition, right.You know, runs 20, 30, 40 or 50, right.Smaller stuff.Um, you know, price accordingly too, right?
It's, it's like, well, I'm only going to do 50, but I'm going to charge like $500 a print.Well, you know, that's, that's a lot of cash for a print.Right.
Um, you know, and especially if you're starting out, like stay modest, stay, um, stay within the financial realms of most people who are wanting to buy your work.Right.And,
you know, because a large percentage of people who are going to buy your work are going to be other artists as well.Right.So, you know, it's like be able to be able to do that.
It's not about making a ton of cash off the top, you know, off the top, right out of the out of the gates.And then as time goes on, you can start kind of re, you know, looking back and, you know, thinking about how, you know, you want
you know, how to price your prints in the future, right?So, you know, if, yeah, you're doing 50, and you're selling them for 80 bucks a pop, and they all sell out, well, okay, well, try 100 bucks next time, right?
And find where your limits are, right? Um, you know, it's just slow and steady man wins the race.It's always kind of been my model, right, right from the very beginning of my career.
It's like, just stay, stay in an area is not about, you know, cashing out in the first year or two of your career, right?You know, just, this is a very long, slow, arduous sort of, you know, trail you're going to go down here.
And if you want to be a career artist and you want this to last for 20, 30, 40 years, then, yeah, just be patient and.Don't be don't be greedy, right, so.
I love that sound, solid advice, really solid advice.
I was really lucky because my you know, my my gallery, White Rock Gallery here on the coast, I mean, we had a relationship you know, working relationship for, for decades.And she was always that, you know, that voice of reason for me, right?
She was always like, yeah, let's do, you know, let's do a 15% increase this year and, you know, see how this is.Okay.Well, let's do a 10% this year and see how this is, you know, you know, things started to kind of go crazy.Right.
And this is how it went.Like, I mean, we'd sell out, You know, it got to the point where he'd sell out shows before the show even opened.Right.
That's what you want, man.That's that's what you want.
Exactly.It was just slow and steady.And people would notice it would be like, holy crap.OK, well, we're 10 minutes too late.Everything sold.Why did it sell?Because everything was reasonably priced.It was marketed well.
And, you know, and then what happens is the year following, you know, you increase your prices a little bit and, you know, and people are now just amped, because they want to be able to buy peace, because if they don't, it's going to be gone.Right?
And, and it just, we just kind of slowly built this career based on that sort of logic.And it just worked.Beautiful, right?It was just, I love it.
I really, I really hope people are hearing that because, you know, you can, We're hijacked now by social media, this instant gratification, this quick turnaround, these huge insane numbers, things going viral.
The sense of time is different now based on the way we consume media, images, stuff. that one can forget that it actually takes a completely different mindset, point of view, to build this in a sustainable way.You've built a career that is enviable.
You look at it and you've got this solid base beneath you.You're selling, I imagine, virtually everything that you're doing. And this takes years to build up.
And I was just talking to Thomas Fluharty, we recorded another podcast just earlier this morning, and this is something I say a lot, success leaves clues.Success leaves clues.
And the big clue for me, the big takeaway is, hey, slow down and think about your approach. Just slow down, don't be in such a dang rush, but it's think about your approach.
I love how sensibly you and your representatives have approached this and test it and see, test it and see.And so I'd love to know, okay, so you mentioned something there.So it's reasonably priced, but it's marketed well.
Tell me about some of your strategies for how you've marketed yourself.And if you had to start over again today in 2024, would your marketing approach change?
No, no.I just, you know, I try to come about how I market myself.And when I say market myself, The only marketing I do is through social media, right?Is literally through Instagram.That is basically my marketing.
I haven't done anything other than that.I know Arcadia, before we do a show, they'll usually do a run in one of the major art magazines.I think it's American Art Collector.
And they'll do like an inside cover or end cover and then do a story based, talking about the show and that sort of thing, right?So they're covering that end of it.
But as far as my own personal marketing, I try to keep it as honest and as frequent, I guess, consistent.I'm just kind of just sharing my life and sharing what I do and my main concern.The most important thing to me is not what people are seeing.
I mean, I just I kind of laugh at the the nonsense that we see on social media, right?It's just what are people willing to do for attention?Seriously, how can you possibly think that's an idea, a good strategy to be taken seriously, right?
I thought I thought the bikini bottoms or the g-string would help me sell more panties It's uh, it's one of those things where You know, I just I try to keep it as honest as possible, right?Yeah, but the stuff i'm not bs and anything.
It's just this is my life, you know, and and i'm I'm just trying to welcome people into little snippets of what I'm doing, right?
And I just kind of try to keep, for me, it's about the quality of work that I'm doing, not the quality of the editing and the post that I'm doing.I mean, some of my stuff is just whatever, right?I'm holding a camera and painting, man.
And, you know, sorry for the shake, but this is what I'm doing, right? And it's more the quality of the work that I think speaks more than anything else.And it's like, this is what it's really about.It's about the work.Yeah.
It kills me because I just, you know, you get caught up in these feeds of people talking about, well, you know, what will bring more people to your page and get them to, you know, to stick around and save it.
And, you know, the idea is to have them stay longer viewing.And it's just like, You know what, what it's about is doing really good work.And if you're doing really good work, people will stick around.
You don't need to sit there and do the song and dance and sit there and be the algorithm's puppet, right?It kills me.It's like, you know, it's like being controlled by like literally an AI program, right?You know, it's kind of like, okay. I was this.
So yeah, no, right.But it's just it's the quality of work.It's it's market yourself by by showing the very best of what you got.But but don't BS about it.It's just give it give it your all be honest about it.And it work hard.
And you know, it's all of these things combined that kind of make great careers that last a really, really long time.
That's right. I love it, Renato.I love that so much.You know, I think I think a huge part of this as well.I mean, it's the like, it's it's it's the feedback that we get from from putting something out there.
And, and if it could be like a little red emoji that shows up as a notification or whatever, it's like, Oh, peace, candy, peace, candy, peace, candy, and it's, it hijacks your mind, and you lose sight of what's really important here.
Okay.Well, what happened to get old, man?Dude, I can't be you're you're doing something right.Please excuse this brief interruption.I just need to take a quick minute and tell you about this podcast sponsor Rosemary and Co brushes.
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You won't regret it and your art will thank you for it.A huge shout out and thank you to Rosemary & Co for sponsoring this episode.Now let's get right back into it.Here's Renato Michielo in the creative endeavor.60 here coming up.
Like, didn't you say 60? You're in great shape, man.It must be something in the liquid that's preserving you.
It's genetics, man.My dad lived until he was 94.My mom is 92.She's still outside of cognitive issues.She's still physically strong and that sort of thing.That's genes, man.That's genes.I was lucky.
That being said, I make an effort and this is the other thing too, right?
You just, you know, you gotta make an effort when you get older to, you know, turn taking care of yourself, physical exercise and, you know, as much a habit as like brushing your teeth and hygiene, right?
Just, it's just as important as any of that, right?Because I can tell you, you know, man, oh man, things change quick when you hit 50, you're like, I'm old.
Oh, this elbow hurts.Why?
No, it's as much as you drive, regardless, right?You know, you just, this is another one of the other reasons to like, I'm kind of looking at this point of my career, which I never really thought I would, right?I thought,
I'm going to paint until I drop dead.Well, you know, kind of hard to paint when you know, your back is seizing up or your neck sounds like there's sand in it, right?
It's kind of like, well, I want to paint but I can't because physically I can't do it anymore.Right?Yeah.You know, I'm looking
my career going, okay, well, how do I continue to be an artist without a ton of pressure on myself to do the two shows a year or one show a year to produce, you know, 50, 60, 70 paintings a year. know, which seemed like a lot, but really, it's not.
I mean, you know, if you're doing one painting a week, I mean, you know, that's, that's an honest living, right?Right.
But at that point, it's like, you want to kind of slow down, okay, well, you know, let's print market seems maybe like a good way to kind of supplement the income, right?
And, you know, you talk to some of these guys out there and I mean, it's more than just a supplemented income.It is the main source, right?
And, you know, if you're doing really strong pieces that are marketable and, you know, you've got a way of selling yourself and, you know, all the power to you, right?Do it.
I mean, my opinion of that was a little bit different the last time we spoke.I know that it was like, no, I'm just doing originals.That's it.You know, I still want to do my 30, 40 pieces a year because I love painting.
But I want to have the pressures of now, you know, thinking, OK, well, now I'm feeling guilty because my back really hurts, right?My knee is getting like, I lost my knee, you know, earlier this year.Right.
And, um, you know, it was one of those things where I had to go in for, you know, start getting injections in my knee.Right.And, you know, and it's like, Oh man, that's a bummer.Right.Like that, that's not good.
So, you know, plan going into plan B into that phase of my life at this point.So,
Understood.Yes, smart.Smart.I mean, I was always on the ground the other day playing with my son Hugo and we're there playing with like little diggers and trucks and stuff and I go to get up and I let out an audible
You know, I'm sounding like Arnie, you know, you know, it's like, it's just like everything frickin hurt, man.Like, oh, no.Oh, no.Like now I remember my father doing the same thing.Just getting up.
Yeah, you're so right, man.
You got it.You got to take care of that body, man.You're only given one, you got to take care of that.
That's just it.Right.And, you know, it's it's one of those things that you just You know, you don't realize how much you say, enjoy your knees now because you're going to miss them when they're gone.Yeah.
whether you exercise every day, it's or whatever, right?And you know, that's, that's just kind of part of my life.And it always has been.
And, but still, you know, time and age is, I mean, it's, it can be very unpleasant to, you know, to the best of people, right?
You know, let me ask a question.How's fatherhood?
As fatherhood?Oh, fatherhood's the best, dude.It's the best.
Yeah, yeah.Just Hugo is his name.He's going to be three here next month.And it's gone so quick.And he's just, he's the light of our lives, you know, and my wife and myself and
He's just a beautiful little boy, such a kind heart on him that we can see already.He's funny.He's started talking, you know, late, but not so long ago.And the stuff he comes out with, he just keeps us in stitches.
And yeah, he was absorbing.
Yeah.He's and he switched on to man.He's a clever little kid.I think, oh, man, you are going to keep us on our toes.But yeah, he's wonderful.It's been it's been such a blessing, bro.Yeah, it's been awesome.
Oh, that's great.I know.And it happens.And it goes quick, right?It's just like, enjoy, enjoy these moments, like the best, these are the best moments of parenthood are, you know, this first few as aggravating as they can be, right?Right.Yeah.Yeah.
Yeah.I mean, my son's gonna be he just turned 31.
Yeah.Yeah.He's just he's a great guy.And awesome.He takes all that from his mom.Right.But no, he's he's you know, it's just it's really cool to see him growing up as a man.And, you know, wonderful.You can edit this all out of it.
No, I'm going to keep it in.Rachel was saying something to me last night, because he went to bed pretty early last night, and I got in, and she was describing this moment that she had had where he holds on to her face,
And he's just he's just kissing her face.And it's just so lovely.This mother son moment is just Oh, I love you, mommy.Love you, mommy kind of thing.And she's like, I'm just soaking it up right now.
Because I can't imagine him doing that as a 15 year old.Mom, get out of my room.
You say that because I remember I remember moments like that with my mother as a small child, like I remember my dad would get up quite early to go to work and or go hunt, or that was the other thing, right?You get up on the weekend, go hunt.
And my mom would get up, make him lunch, and then she'd crawl back into bed and wait for all of us to wake up.
And she was usually up before us, but on the odd occasion, I remember just kind of like slinking into bed with her and just cuddling with her, right?And it just, how incredibly, just how vividly I remember that as a baby, right, as a small kid.
And looking at my mother now, and it's almost like the roles have been reversed, right?I see her as this very, almost helpless, right?And she just, All of the stuff that made her who she was as a mother is now kind of gone.
And all that remains with her now is all of the love that she had for us.She's put away all of the stuff that she needed to do as a mother, right?All the discipline, all the opinions, right?You know, listen to me, I know all of that is gone.
And now all it is, is I love you so much.And thank you for coming and spending time with me, right? And, and when I see her and I say goodbye to her, I just I am always reminded of when I was a kid.
And, you know, just absorbing those moments with her right and and I know that, you know, that's.
you just don't, you know, realize the importance of those relationships that your son is having with his mom and you and, you know, those moments that, you know, that you guys will carry. brought your whole lives right until the very end.
And yeah, it's just a it's a really neat experience to be able to have with with them now.And I mean, I always had a great relationship with my parents.But they were always my parents.They're always very opinionated.
And I was always very stubborn and just really headstrong, right.And I just always felt like they no understanding of my life, my decisions, and you know, yada, yada, yada, right, you know,
But now I look at it and I think, man, I am so fortunate to just be able to spend these times with them.But even with my dad, it was just like, you know, me and my dad were like, boom, right?
I mean, we're always close, very close Italian family, all that stuff. love my dad, respect my dad, just such a hardworking guy.And just a good heart.Yeah, but you just didn't cross my old man, right?You just didn't.
Yeah.When he got to the end of his life, and he was dealing with all of his illnesses that all just kind of came on all at once.You know, seeing this, this guy who is helpless, who, who really needed us, as opposed to us. Right.
And that kind of relationship, you know, kind of developed.It was like that was the best part of my memory, as bad as what was happening.
at the time, it was literally the very best of all of it, right, just because it brought us that close, right, where the, the child parent relationship was now kind of put under the table, and it was just a relationship between people.
So, and you know, people that you love, right, you just realize how much you love these people until you know, until the worst kind of shows up at your door, right?So it's just like, oh, okay, well, we need to deal with this, right?
And yeah, it just brings you that much closer, right?It makes some people run away, you know, they just can't handle it.But you know, it's with other people, it just draws them in, right?
It's their natural instinct to want to take care of their families, right? But I love that man.
You know, it's, it's, it's, yeah, yeah, you'll, you'll, you'll see it, you'll see it as, you know, the first 1516 years might be a bit of a might be a bit of a tough one to deal with some days.
But, but man, let me tell you, it's all good.It's all good.
It wasn't that long ago for me.I remember 15, 16.I remember the way I was.I find now that being in this position, it does make me appreciate my parents a little bit more.
And I kind of understand a few things, a few things that I definitely do different.But all the same, it's like, oh, yeah, yeah.And now that the roles are reversed here, and I'm like, oh, okay.
Well, now you understand where they're coming from.
To a large extent, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
It's not easy being a parent, right?It's just not.So, you know, financially, emotionally, you don't realize it.It is an emotional burden that is sometimes really hard to carry.
The thing that just killed me, one of the first things that he could say was data work.Data work. And I'm like, ah, yeah, dude, dad is working.
And, you know, cause I wanted to be in a position where Rachel didn't have to, you know, it was just, she could be full time mom.And fortunately we've been able to manage that just about.
So, um, you know what, there is, yeah, there is, there is no, There is no two ways about how important that is, right?I mean, it's hard for folks.I mean, I'm not sure what it's, you know, cost of living is like down in New Zealand.
Horrendous.It's probably on par with Canada.I know Canada is pretty bad, man.
Vancouver is so ridiculous.And it is so ridiculous, even in the last five years, right? where, yeah, I mean, people with young families, it's like, how do you manage?I mean, I live alone.And it's kind of like, I have a dog.That's it.
That's my responsibility right there.Right.And it's like trying to juggle time between work, taking care of him, you know, getting all the other things done in life.
It's like, man, how do you manage when your your whole life is being dictated by, you know, your children, one, two, three of them with their individual lives.How do you afford this?I mean, it's, it's just crazy.
And it's, it's really sad that, you know, families are being raised by strangers, right.As opposed to the parents.Right.You know, my mom was the same way.My mom stayed home.She raised us like, you know, like your wife.Right.
And it's, it's like you are in direct control of how those children grow up.Right. Like there's no outside influence, right?So, you know, which when it comes to shaping your children, I think is really, really important, right?
I mean, but it's not a luxury that a lot of people have, unfortunately, you know?
No, that is unfortunate.I do think this is something that has changed.I mean, the wages aren't going up nearly the amount that inflation is.And to keep up with that cost of living, it's a harder and harder uphill climb.
And where this used to be something that was possible back in the day, I mean, you just look at house prices, you look at mortgage prices, it's insane.
This is one of the things that just makes me absolutely obsessed about business and the art business.A huge part of my motivation is
is now just on the personal front, is how do I manage this in such a way that I can provide that opportunity for my son?And so that's a huge motivation for me.But again, I recognize that this is very tough for folks out there.
And it was tough for me for many, many years still is a huge challenge.I still am first one here most of the time last one to leave and and you know, it's it's it's 5am start this morning and it'll probably be home at 730.
And it's it's it's five days a week.I tried to take the weekend but it's, it's a lot.It's a lot.
But possibilities are huge, right?Yeah, man. You know, I'm lucky in the sense that, you know, I don't, you know, I don't have, uh, you know, a house, a house full of kids or, or any of that.Right.
I mean, I get to focus and be really selfish with my time.
And you know, sometimes I lose sight of just how fortunate I am to be able to do that.Right.And, um, and it's, it's one of those things where, yeah, being a career artist is not an easy business.It's just not, but that being said,
what we have, the tools that we have today. sure do make it a lot easier if you're smart about it, right?So, you know, I heard a little clip the other day that was, you know, it just kind of put everything into perspective.
And it was like, if you've got a thousand friends, you know, if you've got, say you've got 5,000 or 10,000 people on your page, right?
And a thousand of those people are willing to spend $100 doing something or supporting you in a print or whatever, do the math, do the math, right?It's like $100, not a whole lot. you got a thousand people investing in you and your product, right?
Well, suddenly, you know, you're now eking out a hundred thousand dollar wage, right?Which is like, okay, wow, that, that, that's kind of doable.Like that, I could easily live on that.
I mean, I'm lucky in the sense that I'm at that point in my life where I have no debt, right?Like my mortgage is just about paid.So it's like, okay, got enough in savings.I could survive on, you know, on those things and a hundred thousand dollars.
Well, man, that sure pads things.And it doesn't nearly seem like as big a deal, you know, as it did before, because you starting to think about it much smaller increments.Right.So, so you do, you know, two prints a year. $100,000 is your mark.
Okay, well, those are $50 a print.How much easier is it going to be to sell that as opposed to the $100 print?Probably twice as easy, you know, because 50 bucks is pocket change for a lot of people, right?
You can't even buy groceries for 50 bucks nowadays, right?So, you know, you can buy an art print, something that'll stay on your wall, you know, and, you know, garnish the walls of your home.
And, you know, so it's, you start doing that sort of math and suddenly being able to make an actual living on, you know, art, whatever your medium may be.It just seems a lot more doable than it once was, right?
I mean, I've, I lived, you know, 25 years of my career being, you know, nothing but originals, right?And, you know, that's, that's a, that's a tough, that's a tough one to,
to kind of keep up, because originals are thousands, tens of thousands of dollars.And your market is pretty small.There's a very elite bunch of people that are able to afford those sorts of luxuries.And just thank you for those who can, because
You know, they've given me an opportunity to do what I love doing.But, you know, you also kind of want to focus on the folks that can't afford that, you know, that don't have that sort of disposable income, right, but still love to collect art.
I love that.There was a gentleman that I met on our Artists in Residency.He was an extraordinary guy.He invented a certain kind of technology that a lot of people use.
without giving it away, or who he is, just to respect his privacy, he gave me some advice.And he's like, you know, you want to be successful at this?I'm like, yes, sir.And he's like, okay, do you want to make some money out of your art?
And I'm like, yeah, he said, Okay, well, you're not going to ever become wealthy from selling original paintings. I think I was, well, Renato Michilo, he's doing okay.
No, but, but one thing he said to me is he said, he said, you're going to do okay from selling your paintings.But he said, let me give you some advice.
He said, what you want to do is you want to find a way that you can sell a little something a lot of times, just a little something a lot of times.And again, I just think for artists that that printing thing,
You know, we ought to do more episodes here on the podcast about prints in particular, but I think that printing thing, there's something to this, you know?
And I just appreciate hearing your point of view on this, and I'm excited to see where this new print run goes.
Yeah, me too.I mean, it's about, you know, get off my sorry butt and, you know, get it all together, then yeah.I mean, I was hoping, I was slating for this print to be happening in late spring.
And then kind of things went sideways with my mom and things went really sideways with the dog.And it was just like, you know, it was kind of like, oh my gosh, I can't focus on this.Right.
And now, you know, we're kind of looking at it going, OK, well, you know, we need to put an online store together outside of my website and get that organized and, you know, finally pick an image that, you know, that we want to use.
as as a first kind of release and I'm thinking that one right back there.
Very twatch men ask.I love it.Yeah.
And I've been kind of plugging away at that one for the last, I don't know, two months, three months now.And it's, again, it's one of those things.It's like, now I'm overthinking.It's like, you need to relax.
Put me down for one of those Renato.Put me down for one.How do I, how do I get my hands on a print hat?Can we, can we direct people to just keep an eye on the drop when it happens?
It's what I will do is, um, I will, I'll just start posting on social media what's going on.And by that time I should have my online store put together.And then we'll do a release date and it'll basically just be a direct to there.Yeah.Yeah.Yeah.
And it's, it's, we're, you know, the logistics of it all and trying to figure this thing out.And, um, I mean, I think it's a lot easier than I'm making it out to be in my own head.
And once we figure it out, then I'll let the rest of the world know and we'll go from there.And I'm hoping to do, you know, a couple of years anyways, not more than that.
It's just one of those things, like I say, I want to start focusing on some major pieces. or at least just be able to paint without the weight of timelines and that sort of thing for the next little while.
And I figure I'm at that point of my life where it's just like, I want to start leaving, think about leaving some really monumental and significant bodies of work that hopefully one or two of those will find their way into public collections, right?
Wonderful, yeah.Yeah, you know, it's just leaving something behind, right?You know, it's kind of weird to say that.No, no, I appreciate it.But you know what, it's one of those things where I'm looking at it like, you know what,
60 may be the new 40 or whatever it is, but the reality is that time is going quick, man.I just want to make sure I get as much of this in while I can.I want to produce the best work I can at this point.Just kind of slow it down a little bit.
Yeah.Well, listen, man, you're one to watch.I appreciate your time so much.And I hope people that are tuning in really listen to some of these valuable lessons that you've shared with us here today.But Renato, thank you so much for your time.
And thank you for being on this episode of The Creative Endeavor.
It's great to talk to you.Always great to talk to you, man.It's just nice to sit back and chew the fat, man.
Absolutely. I really hope you've enjoyed this episode of the Creative Endeavor podcast.A huge shout out and thank you to Renato Muccilo for joining me.
Right now, if you're not already doing so, follow Renato on his Instagram at Renato Muccilo, all one word, underscore fine, underscore arts.That's Renato Muccilo, fine arts.I'll make sure I include a link to that in the show notes.
Also on his website at renatomuccilo.com. And if you enjoyed this episode, then please do me a huge favor, leave me a rating or a review on whatever audio platform you're listening on.It makes a huge difference to the show.
And I thank you so much for doing me a solid, taking the time and doing that and helping this podcast get out there to more and more people.Okay, this was fun.I got a lot out of it.I hope you did too.
I look forward to spending some more time with you again here in the studio.I'll see you again in another edition of The Creative Endeavor.
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