Welcome to Where Brains Meet Beauty, hosted by Jodi Katz, founder and creative director of Base Beauty Creative Agency.Hi, Jodi.How are you?Helene.How are you?It's so great to see you again.So great to see you.Where are you calling in from today?
Well, you can't tell from my background, but I am in LA and I'm here for the Beauty Connect event, which starts tonight.
Oh, very exciting.Can't wait to hear more about it.Yeah, I really love going to their events.I'm excited to be here.That's great.We always meet so many great connections.I feel like you and I have had a bunch of really great events this season.
I was at a really wonderful event last week for Stripes Beauty with Naomi Watts.Naomi Watts was the founder of the brand.And I actually saw our guest this week at that event in person.
That is Worlds Colliding.
It is, it is.So Stripes Beauty, they offer menopause wellness products and it's a brand that has a really big push for conversation in this space.
So they have hot flash awareness and talk a lot about how women are reclaiming this part of their lives.Last week at the event, Naomi and two doctors were on a panel just really trying to bring this conversation to
a place where we are educated about it at all different stages of our journey.And it was a really beautiful restaurant space in Soho, and I loved meeting everyone there.It was great.That's awesome that Dr. Denny was there.
I mean, this is such a topic that's very important to our team.We helped launch Paws While Aging, which was the first of these types of brands, right?It's the first prestige, completely wellness-focused skincare brand.
So I love watching Naomi and others in this space carry that torch.
Yeah, there are so many inspiring women making this aging journey seem a little bit more like something we can be grateful for and seem a little bit less daunting.
Well, it's so cool that you saw Dr. Dandy at this event, because on the episode, you'll hear about like the kind of tug of war of like, how do you spend your time when you're a busy person, right?
She wants to be at that event, she has to be at another event, she has stuff for her kids, she has stuff she wants to do personally in her job.
So she went to the Stripes event that you were at and then had to go to another event I think she was actually presenting at.So lots of things to keep her busy but we have a really great conversation about how to approach that challenge.
That's amazing and I do feel like she does an amazing job of being so many places.I've been to so many different events where I do see Dr. Dendi and a lot of people know her name and know her face and it's very impressive.
I'm sure her calendar is packed.
So RSVPs do so many different things, but it is always a really good lesson for us in the space, networking, making connections, just to keep your word and keep trying to get invited to these different experiences because we learn so much.
Right.This is a big point she makes, and I hope everyone listens to it.If she says she's going to be there, she's going to be there.She's not going to RSVP yes and then not show up.
She feels like she owes it to her peers in this industry, and she'd expect the same from her friends.If you're going to show up, show up. If you can't make it, let me know you can't make it and that you're thinking of me.
Yeah, I love that would help our communications team when they hit when they hear these things from people.So that's great.
And speaking of showing up, if you're listening to this on release week, get out to the polls show up and vote make your voice count an exciting week for America.This is episode 270 with Dr. Dandy Engelman.Enjoy.
Welcome to Where Brains Meet Beauty.We are a career journey podcast talking about what it's like to define success and reach for it in the beauty and wellness industries.
Today, we begin our health wisdom theme, getting great insights from doctors and others in the health field.Today, we are joined by Dr. Dendi Engelman, Director of Dermatology, Mohs Surgery, and Laser Medicine at the Schaeffer Clinic, 5th Avenue.
Dr. Dendi, by the way, behind the scenes, we call you Dr. Dendi.I don't know if that's okay.
A lot of people do.That's great.
Dr. Dendi is a board-certified, award-winning dermatologist and media expert who specializes in medical and cosmetic dermatology.Dr. Dendi is noted for her less-is-more approach to provide her patients with optimal, beautiful, natural results.
I'm excited to get into this conversation about her career journey, all on episode 270.Hi, Dr. Dendi.Welcome to Where Brains Meet Beauty.Hi.
I think you saw my team member Eleni last night at the Stripes event.Yes.She said it was great.
It was really great.I was just there for a quick minute because I had to go give another talk, but it was great to drop in.
So we are here on a career journey show.So we're going to start really at the beginning.When you're a little kid, you're probably 11, 12 years old.What's the first career you ever dreamed of having?
Well, until ninth grade, I wanted to be a lawyer. And then my father's a physician, and I have a lot of medical professionals in my life and growing up.
And my dad took our class, our biology class, to the hospital on a field trip when I was in 10th grade.And that was the day I decided I wanted to be a doctor.I kind of didn't anticipate liking it as much as I did.
And he is an excellent doctor, worked really hard, and I didn't want to work that hard.
from what I'd seen with him, but then I got there, and I was like, oh, I love science, I love math, all of it seemed to come together, and I really loved being there, and that was kind of a surprise to me, but ever since then, I never have wanted to be anything else.
Oh, so what appealed to you about being an attorney before that?
I don't know.My parents, I'm first born and my parents said I always was very good at arguing my point and trying to get my way, particularly as it pertained to my younger brother.And so that was kind of, and I don't know any lawyers.
I didn't know any lawyers.They're not in our family.We come from a very medical, like, helped family.And I don't know if I was just trying to be different.But that was short lived.
Thankfully, there was a part of me at one time that wanted to be a lawyer, I thought I'd want to be in like government maybe.But yeah, I have not looked back.So are you in the office today?Are you seeing patients?Yes.
So is it hard to carve out time for things like that during a workday?
It takes some dancing and maneuvering.But the good news is when we forecast it, then we can buffer it.
pretty appropriately although you know no matter how much buffer i tend to give i feel like your your task expands to the amount of time you've allotted and i'm always like running in as you saw last minute and things you know go i need just a place where i can just sit down and turn on the camera and it works
But I kind of like it, you know, it's often that I'm doing an ad board or having a meeting on Zoom for some of the brands I consult with.And so you're wearing a lot of hats during the day.
We've been shooting a lot of like television segments about like this new viral facial that's hit the market in the US.And so that's also something we often are incorporating into our patient day.
So it takes a little bit of flipping into different personas, one for camera, one for patients, but I wouldn't say we've mastered it, but we're certainly used to it.
Well, full disclosure, you've worked with my team quite a bit at Base Beauty on client programs, and everyone here adores you.And if your ears are ringing often, it's because we're talking about you and how talented you are and what impact you make.
So OK, you decided, I'm going to be a doctor.You had that tour with the class and dad.When was it that you decided you want to be in dermatology?
So it wasn't until well into medical school.The first two years of medical school are all in the classroom.
lecture very didactic where you're learning all the basic science that goes into the base level of knowledge that you need to then practice medicine.
And then the next two years, third and fourth are kind of applying that, but in a very supervised position where you're the lowest man or woman on the totem pole. but learning in the hospital or in the clinic.
And so you have exposure to surgery, medicine, OBGYN, all of the specialties.And then some of the more specialized fields like dermatology, you don't get a lot of time in or you have to take your elective time to be exposed to.
I had always loved the physical nature of dermatology because in our field, the disease or the condition shows itself to us.We don't have to run tests and blood monitoring.
The visual aspect of dermatologic conditions, it really engages the patient because they can see if the treatment is working or if it isn't.
Unlike diabetes, for example, where, yes, a lot of people wear glucose monitors now, but back in the day, they had to run hemoglobin A1Cs and do finger sticks and monitor
if the treatment that the doctor had prescribed was actually working versus it being very obvious to the patient whether what you have prescribed for their condition is helping or not.
And I like that team approach because one of my majors in undergrad was psych and my mom's a therapist and so there's There's a real connection when you have this team approach and it really does increase compliance for patients.
They're really going to use what you prescribe if they can see that it's working and getting better.
Unlike compliance with a lot of oral medicines where people forget to take their dosages and maybe aren't as compelled because it's very difficult to feel if your blood pressure is changing throughout the day.But when you're seeing
that your acne is clearing or psoriasis plaques are getting better, there's a real connection to your provider and your patients have more volition to stick with the prescribed plan.
This is the first time I'm actually really thinking about dermatology in this way, right?You and the patient can really have a very practical conversation about what's happening.It's not so abstract, right?
As if like I had a stomach ache and I don't know why.
Yeah, it's I love it so much.
It's just such a beautiful field to be able to help patients in any aspect, like feel literally feel better in their own skin, whether we're doing lasers or prescription topicals or aesthetics, where, you know, people are coming in and they're telling you,
something that they don't love about their physical appearance and you help them through that and make them like themselves better.
So it's a really, it's such a joy every day to be, to have the honor of like helping people hold their head up higher and throw their shoulders back and really, you know, love themselves more.And that permeates into every aspect of life.
They're a better spouse, they're a better employer, they're a better parent. or employee, because they feel better about how they look.
And I think that that is such a happy side effect to what I do, is you're really transforming people's outlook on life.
You mentioned your mom was a therapist, and so here you are in your field.
I would imagine you have a lot of patients coming to you who walk through the door, and you think they're beautiful, you think they're glowing, and they sit in their chair and they pick on themselves, you know, in a sense.
I want to change this, change that. How do you kind of morph from, I guess, that therapy listener to the doctor?Because you could do anything, but it doesn't mean you're going to do everything.
Yeah, and I think the consultation part with a new patient is so vital because you, one, need to make sure what they're looking to change is one, appropriate.Is it actually going to behoove them ultimately?And why, like the why really matters.
Like, why are you here?I've had patients come in and say, You know, my boyfriend broke up with me.Will you just inject something to make me feel better about myself?"And I'm like, that is not what these are for.
You know, like, I will give you a hug, and I will listen to your story, and I will, like, help you through that.But, you know, that is not the purpose of these.
Yes, you do get a lift psychologically, but it's not going to change, ultimately, your emotional state nor your situation. we need to make sure that we're embarking on this journey for the right reasons.
And also when someone comes in and they're like, I want these lips, you know, it may not be appropriate for their facial features and be way out of proportion and would look ridiculous.And so we have to talk about
desired outcomes and what aesthetically truly is the most desirable outcome because there's a lot of ratios, there's a lot of math and aesthetics, and also selfishly, unlike controlling hypertension, if my patients are going around looking kind of crazy, like that's a billboard of what I provide.
And so you want to make sure that your patients are the best example of your work And if people have different needs or desires, there is somebody out there for you.It just needs to be a good fit for what I'm willing to do in order to help you.
So you're telling me that some patients, I'm sure not just yours alone, instead of like retail therapy and going shopping, sit in the Derm's chair and seek out like a break from reality almost, right?
I mean, this is where the psychology of what we do is like so ever present because one, just walking in and sitting down and either taking off your clothes if we're doing a skin check or taking off your makeup and really, and then pointing out flaws, like that is emotionally,
it renders you emotionally vulnerable.And so we have to respect like the power that we have to either really help someone feel better and address something or give them a complex.
You know, what patients often do is sit in my chair and they're like, what would you do to make me look better?And that is a slippery slope because I may aesthetically point out something that they hadn't even noticed.
And then for the rest of their lives, every time they look in the mirror, they can't unsee it.
And so we want to navigate that together in a very thoughtful way so that we're addressing things that can be improved upon but without inducing neuroses, if that makes sense.And so we do a lot of deep work in an emotional space.
I mean, we have so many tears shed because people do feel vulnerable and do feel like they can share because they're already telling you things that they don't like about their physical appearance. I take that in high compliment.
I really love to be able to know what my patients are going through, not only in their aesthetics journey or their dermatologic journey, but also what's going on in life.Because there's such a corollary.
If someone's picking or if they have acne and they haven't before, you know, I'm like, what's going on?You know, your skin kind of doesn't lie.And it'll give you away.And that's what's fun. About what we do.
It's like you can assess pretty quickly from walking in like how your how your patients doing when you pick dermatology as a focus Did you I don't remember like when aesthetics became like as powerful in your day as it is now for dermatology But like was it really not mostly aesthetics when it was not mostly aesthetic.
I'll be 48 next month and I It was in academic settings, we had one cosmetic clinic for three hours a month, like that's as much exposure as we got.It was not, it was kind of frowned upon, like people didn't want to talk about it.
It was not like the cerebral game that is dermatology because germ is like encyclopedic in what you have to master as far as, because every disease internally can also, or many, can manifest.
And so people think we only deal with the outside, but you have to be like an excellent internal medicine physician to actually then put together, piece together these dermatologic conditions that are presenting on the skin.
And so that is to say that we didn't get a ton of exposure or treatment, and there wasn't a focus that there is now, because I finished residency in 2008.
And so it's, but then I did a fellowship in skin cancer surgery and laser medicine procedural derm.
So like a subspecialty from beyond residency in dermatology in order to like learn all of the cool, amazing applications that we can do through light-based devices, energy-based devices, injectables, neuromodulators.
There's so much that we can do in this space that historically, like when my dad graduated from medical school in 1972, there were steroids. and there were antifungals and that's it.
There were no biologics, there were no lasers, there were no injectables, so it wasn't a very sophisticated field and now it's exploded and every six months we have a new device that I get to learn and use and
So it's fun in a world where, you know, 30 years ago, there wasn't a whole lot to offer.Now, it's just like the brave new world of you can do 20,000 crunches by lying there on a device like that.It's insane.
And so it's really a fantastic space to be in.And obviously, I love it and kind of nerd out when I talk about it.
When you talk with people who are in medical school and want to pursue dermatology, are a lot of them now talking about the aesthetic side of it?Or do you think they're entering for the, I guess, what do we call it, the medical side of it?Yeah.
The medical dermatology part, I would say, is not as in vogue now.And I have to say that even though my practice has evolved, I still do medical dermatology.Like, I do it all.I don't let that part go.I think it's really important.
Is new doctors coming out and like all they want to do is aesthetics like you still need to know all the basis that we trained in And and call yourself in order to call yourself a dermatologist if you're like, oh, I don't I don't do rashes I don't know.
I mean, I don't do psoriasis or eczema Like you're really limiting your practice and also your patients if they're coming to you.
I do skin checks all the time on patients who are there for Botox because that's kind of, for me, I feel like that's the, I owe it to the specialty to like keep all of that up.
So you spent a lot of time, obviously, in the practice with your patients, but you have become a notable KOL out in the media.You're talking to me today.I've seen you on TV and a ton of articles.
I think a lot of dermatologists listening, and there are many who've been popping in, they probably want to know, how did you get to do that?What was the path to becoming a voice for the specialty outside of the treatment room?
Well, it kind of fell in my lap.One of the PR firms, when I was just at a fellowship, I was at a practice on 57th and Park, and they were doing a peel day. for beauty editors in the office with our esthetician.
And I didn't know, I grew up in South Carolina.I didn't, I didn't know anything about PR or marketing.Like having a publicist is like, was not anything I even knew what they did.Like it was truly untrodden territory for me.
And I was just working, seeing patients. And one of the PR girls met me and they were looking for a client of theirs, which is ClearCell, was looking for a new dermatologist.
And so we had a meeting the next week and they named me the consulting derm for ClearCell. And so it really just started by happenstance.And bit by bit, I was quoted in some articles and met with media.
And because of the PR firm relationship, they would send editors to me.And that kind of grew in a space of word of mouth.Because everybody talks about, oh, your skin looks good.Where do you go?And so it really grew organically.
And I think that's the best way to do it.People always come and they're like, how did this happen?And my answer is always like,
Work really hard at what you do for a long time and it will come but the reverse is very hard to do where you're just reaching out to everyone and saying I wanna I wanna be on TV I wanna be in magazines like I'm not saying couldn't happen but I want people.
Coming out of practice or listening to this to know that like put your head down and work for a long time and do what you're Good at and that will come but when you force it it seems a bit inauthentic and you honestly don't have yet the experience to like pull on enough if you're right out of training to To be able to be the best that people you know are referring you for for whatever treatment So you want to make sure that you know, you're worthy of the hype I guess
I love that because I think it's really easy for us, especially now with social media being a part of our lives daily, to just see the human at the top and not realize that there was like a very big mountain to climb and like a lot of gear required to climb that mountain.
These things do not happen overnight, right?It's really a slow build.And I love that you were in that place in that moment and opportunity found you and you knew that opportunity was calling, right?Like that's the other thing.
People need to be, they have to have their antenna up for like, what are the possibilities, right?
Yeah.And it was so fun and different than anything.I mean, I honestly didn't even know I wanted to do it, but it was such a, different side of my brain.
I'm not a creative, but it was really fun to be able to sit in ad boards and be like, how do you think we should approach this?
And really give solid counsel from my background, from my area of expertise, which is not marketing, and then see that play out ultimately in the market.
So that is really fun for me, but not anything that I ever forecasted or thought I would see myself doing, but I do really enjoy it. And if you don't, don't do it.It's not a necessity.Thank God we have a day job, so don't forget that.
That's what I always tell the younger germs who are coming out.Don't forget what you went to school for for 13 years after high school.It's a long time that we trained for this crap, so hone it.
And then, you know, and then see if these other opportunities are something that you want to do.
So I know you spend a lot of hours in your day job, and then you have the hours in the, we'll call it support, right, all the KOL work.What do you like to do in your free time?And how do you find time to prioritize your free time?
You know, I feel like I'm often failing on all fronts with like, I could be at work more, I could be with my family more.
I could do more research, more writing, but I will say that I love my friends and my family, and I do try to put them at a high priority of showing up and fostering those relationships.
I grew up down South, all my family's still down there, so I want to make sure that my children know that area as well and where they come from, from my side.
And so I do, I rarely say no, and I probably should say no more, but I really do try to pack a lot in and that comes, you know, at a cost sometimes when I'm like deeply tired or
You know, I feel like I've over indexed in one area of my life, either I've been traveling too much or, you know, and so you just do the best you can the next day.
You know, I try not to beat myself up on like, man, I've really taken off a couple of days more than I should have in order to fill this.Like my children, for example, had off Monday and Tuesday this week.
And I took off both of those days in order to lean into them.But then you feel guilty that patients couldn't get in or whatever it was.So I wouldn't say I've figured it out at all.I'm always adjusting.
But I do not, I try really hard not to beat myself up.Like every day is a new day and you can just do better.And you're kind of like stealing from Peter to pay Paul sometimes.
But I think that's just the balance of working mom, working lady, working dad.We all have to make decisions. and decide where your time serves you best.And it may change from week to week, day to day, month to month, year to year.
Oh, that's such a fun age.Well, I now have a 17-year-old who has a driver's license, so I got a lot of time back. So it's like there's cycles, there's seasons to being a working parent too.
So I have a 13-year-old who certainly needs me to drive her around, but the 17-year-old now just goes and does things.It's interesting because last night it sounded like you went to two events. Right.So did you work during the day seeing patients?
I worked during the day and then I ran down to the Stripes event and then I was giving a talk at Beef Bar.So I showed up at the Stripes event at like 5.24 and needed to be at Beef Bar at 6.
You know, it's like you literally run in and you want to show up.And so that wasn't great.I would have loved to have spent more time.But at least, like I said, I was going to go and I did, you know, and I think
those things are important to support other brands and people who are doing it right and in a pretty fairly novel space of like menopause and aging women.And I really want to support those who are supporting me and my craft and my patients.
So I really I look like a crazy person.I always joke that behind the scenes it is not pretty, but I just try to get as much in as I can.
I think when there's joy behind your actions, then even when it's a crazy day, an exhausting day, it fills you up, right?
So wanting to be at Stripes or wanting to be at the second event because it satisfied you and created joyful energy, even if that just means being somewhere for 10 minutes.And you've thrown events.
When people show up, even if they can't stay, you're happy to see them, right?It's really meaningful, actually.
Because I think everybody, whether you're a superstar in the world or just have a handful of friends, anytime you throw a party you're hoping, well, people come, right?It's like always the feeling.Right.
And we all know the worst is when people say they're going to come and then they don't.And then we get the email the next day and it's like, oh my gosh, this happened or whatever.
So I really, I'm not saying that there are extenuating circumstances, but I really try if I say I'm going to be there, I show up.
Yeah.Well, you just helped me segue into the last question of the interview portion of the show, which is around empathy.It's a topic we talk a lot about at Base Beauty and our work and the way we work with clients and the way we work with partners.
And that's really what you're talking about is like, you know, really thinking about the other person on the other side of that conversation, whether they're a brand that you're friends with or your patient.
Yeah, I mean, I think the Goldner rule should be used and implemented more.I try to teach my children that.
And yeah, how would you feel if you were throwing something and someone said they're going to show up and then you're like, oh, well, I had another talk.Well, you knew you had another talk.So either say you are going to come.
or try to show up for 24 minutes or whatever it was.And so I agree.And I think we all need more empathy.
I think that either in this cancel culture or whatever we're living through socially, if we could just extend some grace and see things through someone else's eyes, I think the world would be a kinder, softer place to navigate.
Yeah, I was driving yesterday and there was somebody like I was driving speed limit.I did not need to drive faster.And there was someone behind me like really wanting me to drive faster.They made it very clear.
And while that's frustrating and can be very intimidating when you're driving, I and they like zoomed around me in a totally illegal way. I'm like, that person obviously, like, really has an emergency, right?
Like, they might actually be on their way to a hospital or, you know, on their way to, like, their kid's school because they're sick or something, right?
So instead of going to anger or rage, I really try to go to a place of this person really needs to go wherever they're heading.
And that's such a kind way to be.And then it also keeps you from having this inflammatory reactionary cortisol release of, like,
road rage you know you're you're being empathic to someone who may not deserve it but there's there's no harm in taking the high road and it didn't it didn't spike your blood pressure that way so i think the self-talk often in a kinder voice not only to yourself but about other people's actions really helps to just diffuse things
I'm glad you mentioned self-talk because I feel like I talk to myself in my head all the time, right?
Like whether I'm intimidated, overwhelmed, excited, exhausted, whatever, confused, like I'm literally always like taking the steps, like step one, step two, step three, step four in my brain all the time.
But that's a great way to be.I think that's kind of what I'm trying to teach my little ones is like, what are these feelings?Why am I feeling them?And what do I do about them?And it's okay to have extremes of emotion.
But I think the processing and the inner voice and the inner dialogue, if it's softer, that really is a great way to set up people for success and happiness, which is ultimately success.
My goal is serenity and joy every day.Maybe I can't have it all day every day, but I can have it.This is so fun, Dr. Dundee.Thank you.This wraps up our interview segment of the show.I think we have time for maybe like two fan questions.
So Seema is asking, she's looking for a skin peel recommendation for large pores.What do you recommend?
Oh, there's so many awesome peels.I will say that I like glycolic. There's a new one out of Korea called Cell Story, which uses these micro sponges that really helps.It's almost like microdermabrasion, but in a kind of several step facial.
But that part really helps to resurface and helps improve skin texture.
Okay, Chris is asking if you have memories from home.So South Carolina is where you're from, right?What is your one fun South Carolina memory?It's something maybe you can't capture easily in New York City.
Okay.Well, I would say there's this, the oldest continually functioning pharmacy in South Carolina is in my hometown called Somerville and it's called Garren's.
And my cousin and I used to ride every day of the summer on our bikes and go get vanilla Cokes for 19 cents.And then we would go and they sold like little candy.And we knew that if it was under 10 cents, then they wouldn't charge tax.
So we would go get like some tartantinis and take them to the counter and they'd be like, is that all?And we'd say yes and we'd give them a dime and then we'd go right back and go buy another one and we would do that until our dollar was gone.
And it's still open and when I get home next weekend, I'm taking my my children there for a vanilla cake.
Oh, that's so sweet.Thank you for sharing that memory with us.Of course.Well, this is an amazing show.Thank you so much, Dr. Dendi Engelman.This is our 270th episode.So thank you for sharing your wisdom and your career journey with us.
Oh, thank you for having me.I loved it. And for our listeners, if you like this episode, please rate and review.
As always, make sure you're following us on your favorite podcast platform and Instagram to stay up to date on upcoming episodes and all the fun we have along the way.Thank you, Dr. Dundee.
Thank you.Have a great weekend.
Thanks for listening to where brains meet beauty with Jodi Katz.Tune in again for more authentic conversations with beauty leaders.
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