is the idea of making data-driven decisions.And I'll give you an example, Jason.Historically, when companies do 360 reviews, 90-day review, we're not in the belief that management should force down a tool down their organization.
There's a lot of pushback.If you allow employees to have buy-in, to make it a seamless part of their workday.
Empowering conversations for your recruiters.
Welcome to another episode of the Staffing Green Podcast.I'm your host, Jason Lawson.I'm super excited for today's episode.Our guest today is Sam Nafisi.
Sam is a serial entrepreneur with a strong passion for the disruptive technology, and particularly where he can transform industries through innovation.
Sam has been with Protest for four years, initially serving as board member before stepping into the role of CEO.Prior to Protest, Sam was the chairman and CEO DTIQ.
formerly DTT, where he led it to acquisition by Cisco, and it later became a leading provider of digital business innovation solutions and software for restaurants, convenience stores, and retailers.
So, incredible depth of experience and taking the helm of ProtoScore, I think is, you know, is going to deliver incredible insights and results for their customers.So, welcome Sam. Thank you, Jason.Thanks for having me.Good morning.
Good morning to you.We are going to, in the spirit of the staffing room, we jump in the ring and we start, gloves up, hands up, and we go straight into the challenges.Who's the enemy?Who's the opposition for staffing companies?
And what are the challenges in the market?So first question, you know, speaking to, you know, staffing agencies, prospects, customers, what he's seeing is kind of the market forces that they should really be aware of in today's environment.
It's a good question, Jason, and I come from a perspective of being a supplier.I'm a CEO of a supplier to the staffing agency, so my breadth and scope of understanding the space and this vertical is from that perspective.
So, the fortunate thing is we do have a lot of data. around employee engagement, employee analytics, I'd say the two or three areas that we see kind of flanged, one is clearly the burnout area and employee engagement.That's one area that we're seeing
you know, they're being overworked potentially and the staffing has been reduced.So I think that's part of the issue.You know, there was a survey I saw that I think it was 60 or 65% of employees said they feel overworked.
And that leads directly to a decrease in productivity that we've seen and certainly higher turnover.So that's a big area.I think another area where I speak to CEOs that are running staffing firms is about mental health.
And when they are overworked and overwhelmed, does it lead to a mental health issue?How do we address that?How do we provide them some flexibility at work to relieve the burdens that overwork potentially could bring?
And the third area that's more broad, not necessarily staffing related, but broadly, is economic uncertainty. I think there are a lot of unknowns in the economy, potentially a slowdown.We saw the job numbers last week.
So I think that's an area that all of us are thinking about what the next 12-18 months look like.
Yeah, there certainly is no doubt a very challenging environment.
And I think, you know, a lot of agency leaders are very aware of that and cognizant of, you know, staff turnover, recruiter, mental health, and certainly it's been a big change from, you know, 2021, 2022.
When you think about those challenges, where do you see the risks for agency leaders to not be fully aware of how to manage or how to really see the signals or have the data to help them manage and support their teams?
Yeah, I think that's what tools like ProtoScore come into play by us being able to highlight, for example, what I gave as an example in question number one regarding employee burnout, employee engagement.
Our tool provides real-time analytics around that. and being able to show management what employees are potentially burning out, overburdened, and overworked, what can we do?
Because the prolonged impact of being overworked and overwhelmed permeates through the organization. It's not just that one individual who's feeling overworked.
It permeates to their colleagues, and most importantly, permeates to client relationships, engagement with the clients, and being an efficient party to them, counterpointing to them.
So those are really critical issues of addressing it earlier, not leading to attrition.One of the things that all of us are trying to do is retain our quality talent.
And you don't want them to be burning out and it's shredding when we're all scrambling to keep the quality talent we already have.
Right.And, and, you know, the, the benefit of having a tool like Proteus Core is like you've, you've just mentioned, you're having those early signals to make informed decisions and actually take some proactive measures.
Given that even some of the better or best recruiters at the moment are struggling to get the placements and the fees and the business, how do you see or feel that some of these maybe
a little bit wanting to protect themselves and not be too much in the eye of the data or eye of the analysis in terms of their performance.Some of the performance is actually externalities.The market is tough.
It's not their actual individual performance per se.How do you think about leaders balancing those things out?
Look, it's historically been a very data-driven vertical.The staffing agency is very metricized.And we are adding a higher level of data analytics, overarching all of the cloud tools they currently use.
So they use email, telephony, chat, slack, an applicant tracking system, and ATS.So they're already capturing all these data points for their staff.
All we're doing is we're capturing the data, we're putting it in a real-time dashboard, using AI, machine learning, large language models to provide next indicated action.
So in the example of the overworked employee that may be burning out, we can be a leading indicator. And far before they quit in 90 days because they're burning out, give the manager or the executive suite a flag.Hey, Sam seems burnt out.
Give him a couple of days off.Have a conversation with him.Bring some help to Sam.Maybe you could bring another person who could help him.
That way you alleviate the inevitable burnout or potential attrition by using a leading indicator like CoronaScore.
Yeah, and that's a great segue into round two, which is the strategies and tactics to win.And even in a challenging market, and we're recording this in the middle of 2024, most sectors are challenging.
There's no doubt that many agencies will flourish in the coming six or 12 months. I think for many, they are thinking about what are the right tools, what are the right approaches.
Are you seeing any more unconventional ways to use the data or the insights, or what are some of the best practices for agency leaders to really make sure they're seeing the right platform of people, process, and technologies?
Right.So look, I'll talk about two things here that one of them just got triggered in my mind, but again, I'm a big believer, and I think a lot of the C-suite in staffing is the idea of kind of making data-driven decisions.
And I'll give you an example, Jason.Historically, when companies do 360 reviews, 90-day review, semi-annual, annual reviews, they've always been very subjective.
If I like the person I'm talking to, if I had a dinner with them last night, they get a five, they get a promotion, they get a raise.What we're trying to do, and a tool like ProloScore, is makes that review very objective.
So it makes that decision of the raise, the promotion or the bonus directly correlated with data.So I think that's an area that tools could be used where historically they've been mostly subjective, bring it on to a more objective format.
The second one was just triggered in me.What I said, as you were asking the question is around AI and automation.And I think it's such a buzzword right now, AI and Two parts of AI that are critical.
One is AI does not function or does not work with any efficacy if you don't have a large swath of data. We're fortunate to capture enormous amount of data that makes us subject matter experts within our niche category of staff.
So we know the industry well, and I say this to management all the time, use AI as an adjunct to help your employees, not necessarily to replace them.
You could handle a lot of things in AI, but if it's used conjunctively with your staff, make their roles easier, let them perform better.When they do, there's less stress on them and potentially better outcomes for the company.
Yeah, I think it's that, it's that complementary, you know, if you see it and machine is where, you know, certainly, you know, the adage at the moment is, you know, AI is not going to replace your role, it's another person who uses and leverages AI and automation, because I think automation is one of the initial steps a lot of agencies can take with AI.
And also, you know, tools like Ringover, where And I'm curious with ProtoScore 2 is the adoption and engagement in the suite that staffing agencies do provide their recruiters.
And I think, again, those recruiters that really do embrace and use the technology in their role on a day-to-day basis, whether it's business development, whether it's working with the ATS and making sure it's rich of data,
can actually then, it's a loop of insights that then can help them in their own role and performance.
And as we kind of talk about AI, and it's certainly, again, a hot topic, there is a massive challenge for agency leaders to both embrace the power of the technology, but also maintain a unique and valuable service to clients.
if every agency is bringing on a subset of AI tools, they may all start to look and feel the same from a client perspective.
How do you think agency leaders should embrace technology, data-driven, but also be able to stand out when they're talking to candidates and clients?
Yeah, look, I was personally talking to a staffing CEO this week, earlier this week, and she mentioned that they're looking to implement AI tools to streamline initial candidate assessments.
So that kind of facilitates that onboarding and maintaining that personal interaction with the employee, but you use AI as an adjunct tool to help that process and streamline it.That was really interesting to me.
It was a novel approach and I was like, wow, if they could work that collaboratively, use AI for the initial candidate assessment while having their staff take the next steps, it's an interesting win-win for both parties.
Right, yes, so it's really allowing the recruiters to spend more time on the high value, sort of high touch parts of their job and help kind of automate and build AI around some of the more administrative parts of the role.
which again is another great segue into round three where we kind of delve more deep into the product innovations and specifically around kind of the marketplace around the ATS CRMs that you know both Protoscore and Ringover you know work very closely with.
In terms of you know I do hear and see a lot of staffing agencies, and certainly through 2021-2022, they did bring on a lot of new technology and some of it was not well adopted.
Some of it didn't integrate well into their existing kind of technology stack.
How do you see clients, you know, taking on produce and, you know, thinking about the overall technology environment to help, you know, whether it be data lake, data warehouse, how are you thinking about the best ways that they embrace and onboard technologies like produce?
Yeah, look, Jason, I think that's a really important question.And for us at ProtoScore, and I hope it's broadly defined by others, is really being employee-centric.
So we're not in the belief that management should force down a tool down their organization with a lot of pushback.
If you allow employees to have buy-in, to make it a seamless part of their workday, then not only do you have tool adoption, because the company is spending money on these tools, make sure the employees are in it and enjoying the benefits it gets out.
So for example, in ProtoScore, I could speak definitively about We are very employee-centric.And by that I mean is we provide amongst cohorts and peers for you to see how your colleagues are doing. How are they functioning?
Hey, Sam is a good performer, but Jason's a great performer.How do we replicate Jason?How could Sam get closer to performing as well as Jason?
And we provide analytics around that to allow me, Sam, in this example, to be motivated and look up to a possible growth in approaching Jason.
So I think that's an example of how Pluralscore uses its tool to be very employee-friendly, very employee-centric, and allow that kind of growth for colleagues.
Yeah, it also triggers kind of a thought too, in terms of we've spoken about recruiter retention, the churn, which is naturally pretty high in this industry.
I think there's also a great opportunity for agency leaders to think about the employer branding to attract new recruiters, right?There's always going to be that top
quartile or top 10% or top 1% of recruiters, that as an agency leader, you want to attract to your team.
So, you know, I'm thinking about having a great tool set, like in particularly something like ProtoScore, which is going to help high achievers achieve even more.
It is a role that is, you know, very much a revenue, higher income earning potential role.So
How do you think agency leaders could think more about attracting new talent into their team through promoting actually the strong tool set and the whole mindset of the business?
No, I look at attracting new talent almost in the same light of retaining great talent. they go hand in hand.
And one of the things we do is, and it's really important because when you have potential attrition or a reduction in force in organizations, we have a part of our, of ProtoScore is an area around ONA, Organizational Network Analysis.
And CEOs and managers have very little visibility into the connectivity of their staff. So how important is this colleague to the organization?If he's being let go, or he's burnt out and tired, or he's underperforming, just to see the connectivity.
So our ONA models by our data science team analyze all of the connections between every employee in the organization.And will tell you if something, if one employee or multiple employees were lost,
between attrition, they got terminated, they quit, they're burned out, whatever the scenario and the impact on the company.A lot of decisions are made in the C-suite without knowing the ripple effect in the organization.
And that's really critical for us to know what cog in the wheel are we letting potentially attrit, how important they are besides their revenue.
Everybody just looks at performance solely on revenue, but what about the impact on the organization beyond revenue?
So I think that area is a very important area to focus on, knowing the importance, connectivity, and kind of just the glue that holds the organization together.
Yeah, I think that's a remarkable case study of applying tool set and data and insights.And yeah, certainly whether that's understanding how that kind of complementary team works and would struggle without a certain individual, but also
how they might benefit from having somebody else come into the team that can really help, you know, bolster.
And particularly those agencies that moved away from a 360 degree model where they've got, you know, the business development team and then the kind of sourcing team.
How do they kind of, you know, collaborate between, you know, different parts of their kind of client and candidate journey?
Exactly.And Jason, remember one important thing, the idea of hybrid or remote, that's a whole nother area we focus on of knowing productivity, agnostic of geography.
And we have definitive numbers and analytics around how you perform in office, how you perform hybrid, how you perform remote.
Yeah, and that is worth its weight in gold, isn't it, in terms of having those insights and doing it in a way that's not a big brother.
It's very much a, we're working out what's going to be working, what's the optimal mix for the team, for individuals.And so certainly something I'd recommend, the audience taking a look at the project score and particularly around that hybrid,
remote support.I think it's a brilliant feature and benefit of ProDisk.
As we look forward, in terms of innovation, this could either be ProDisk's product roadmap or what are you seeing in terms of the overall marketplace, other technologies or integrations.
Yeah, what's kind of exciting for you in terms of what the next kind of six or 12 months will bring?
Yeah, look, I touched on it very briefly earlier, but for us, it's all around large language models and AI in providing our staffing clients indicated actions, next actionable steps.
And we're not going to be experts in 20 different verticals, but we are and are learning and are kind of becoming subject matter experts in staffing.
Our data is so rich with staffing information that our language models can provide this industry with really, really well-founded, thoughtful, next indicated actions.Again, as an example,
what is jason doing that he's doing so well how can we replicate jason look one of the big struggles of management has always been how do i replicate good employees
We now can provide directed indicated actions of how Sam can improve to get closer to Jason.And that is a hugely valuable tool that I think in the next quarter, we're probably going to launch this around October.
It'll be game changing for the industry.
Yeah, I can see that already in terms of what the product offers today, but also as you describe what's coming, I think it's creating that repeatable, scalable, successful process and approach to recruiting, which
you know, I think gone are the days where, you know, the inbound of rolls and the supply demand, you know, that's a fair wave to coming back.So I think having a much more repeatable, you know, and
best in class kind of method that's going to help agencies tremendously.So yeah, fantastic.Right, Sam, we are into round four speedball.So we've got some quick fire q&a to, you know, to keep us warmed up here.So here we go.
Number one, what would be your walk on music theme song if if you were to enter the ring as you're entering the staffing ring today?
Oh, that's funny.I'm an immigrant, so it's been a song that I value.Eye of the Tiger.
Oh, brilliant.Okay.Probably one of the best songs.It brings so much emotion, doesn't it, in terms of just the energy.It's a motivating song.100%.Best movie then, Fight Club or Rocky?It has to be Rocky, because that was the song. There you go.
Red corner.Okay.Beach or snow?
Oh, beach for sure.I took my kids skiing a couple of times when we stopped years ago.Beach.Okay.
I'm with you.I'd take you to the beach any day.Coffee or tea?
I grew up with tea, but currently coffee.
Right.Nice.Salsa or guacamole?
Oh, and little hot salsa on top of the guacamole.
All right.There we go.So salsa and guacamole.I love it.Yeah.Are you a texter or a caller?
Depending on who. My kids text good luck if they pick up my call.A professionally call.
Yeah.Nothing beats a phone call.Yeah, for sure.Virtual or in real life?How are you playing there today?
In real life.I like tactile.I like seeing people.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, best or breed, this is around software, so best or breed or all in one.I think often, you know, the industries shift from one to the other.How are you seeing that at the moment?Best of breed.Rustic or modern?Rustic.Rustic.
E-books or physical books?Oh, physical books. All right.
I think we're on the same page for many of these interesting Yeah, and then we've just got a few Q&A just to kind of expand on some of these questions.
So thinking again about Project Score and your amazing history of leadership, I guess maybe going back a few years, what's one of the best pieces of advice that you were given that's really helped you in your career?
I say this often, Jason, but Mistakes versus regrets.Mistakes are okay.I welcome them, do them, but don't have regrets.And the defining distinction between the two is regrets are indecision.You're at a fork in the road.
You're indecisive and incapable of making a decision.Horrible.Make a decision.Even if it's a mistake, learn from it and move on.
Yeah, that's a big one.Yeah, nothing more I can add to that.That's, yeah, definitely one for the books.Speaking of books, do you have a book you would recommend, a classic or one that you're reading recently?
Yeah, it's not a classic, but I've just been reading in the last month or so, Anthony Bourdain's Kitchen Confidential. I've gone into cooking, his cooking shows, so I picked up his book.
Yeah, okay.Sounds amazing.I've not had a chance to read that, but yeah, certainly take note.I love cooking and travel, so I think, yeah.That's why I do it, exactly.And a podcast.Are you a podcast listener?
I certainly listened to All In.So Chamaths and Jesse Galaganis and those guys, it's a great podcast.
Yeah, that is a top one on my playlist as well.All In.I'll drop it in the show notes for those that have not come across that.But certainly, yeah, totally agree.I highly recommend.And any new or favorite app that you're kind of always on or often on?
Yeah, I forgot the name of the app.I'll tell you right now.But I got a Father's Day gift of this scale.So I've got into health and being careful with my diet.So my kids gave me a scale that's connected to this app called VE-Sick.
And you stand on the scale, and not only does it give your weight, but your body mass index, fat level, your heart rate, it's got 40 different things.And I do it in the mornings and at night, and it has graphs and charts.
It's pretty crazy, it's a little too much clearly, but I've got into it in the last couple of months.
Yeah, I think, again, technology can be a wonder in terms of both work and personal, I think.
have friends with you know the whoop device and other wearables and scales I think yeah that's again it's all about being aware you know I'm sure if I stepped on your scales probably all the numbers wouldn't be in the right direction but at least I'd be aware and be able to understand okay I need to take need to take some better care of you know my step count or whatever it might be so
Yeah, that's a fantastic one.Right, we are cooling down, we're wrapping up.A couple of final questions.
Just thinking about the conversation we've had today, Sam, what would be your two or three key takeaways in terms of what we've spoken about today?
Look, I think we all as leaders should put employee health and wellness at the forefront.And look at that, because I think if we care for them and their wellness, it'll permeate through the organization.Our revenues will increase.
Our retention rates will improve.Our customers will be happier.I think making employee-centric decisions is really, really important.Using technology, as we talked about, AI, all that stuff,
using it judiciously, using it collaboratively versus in replacing of, but using it with the cohorts of employees.I think those are important.I think also making some generational assessments, right?
Different employees at different thresholds of age and where they are in their lives want different things.You know, maybe the Gen X wants Fridays off.Maybe someone my age doesn't mind working on Fridays.
but they want to take Monday afternoons off because they want to go to their kids' volleyball games.Seeing those things and being an employee-centric manager in all industries, I think, could be well-founded for all of us.
Absolutely, absolutely.And just a follow-up question then, really, to resonate so highly, and I'm sure Will was with our audience.So, as an agency leader, you know, busy job, a lot of stress.
And, you know, I'm sure most or all will be nodding their heads right now as you talk about that.
What would be one thing that you would suggest that they do or think about, you know, approach to actually buy themselves some time to put something in action or, you know, something that comes to mind?
I'm smiling as you're asking the question because it's something I struggled with for a long time running this business.But I will tell any of my friends, colleagues, managers, CEOs, give your team part of or all of Friday off.
No one works on Fridays, folks.I was so reluctant until I saw the enormity of data in all industries.If you can, take advantage of that opportunity to give time for your employees to take Fridays either partially or holistically off.
Wow.Well, that's certainly a big takeaway.And certainly, yeah, I've seen a lot of businesses where Friday is so unproductive and I think also just giving people the choice, right?
If they know they've got a deadline or know they've got some things that they haven't quite got to through the week that's been busy,
And if they want to spend their Friday or their Friday morning to really just delve into that and complete that piece of work, just gives people more the freedom.
And, you know, probably what you're saying there, too, is where people might be working, there's no kind of set meetings.So they've actually got some time to actually do some work as well.
So no, that's brilliant and feels like we've really got to the pinnacle of a lot of what we've discussed today in terms of really taking action and being really mindful and also just being led by insights as you've just done to actually make some, sometimes some, you know,
tough decisions that might go against previous kind of thinking.
I was instinctively like, what are you talking about?We're working five days a week.But as the data came in and I saw the reality of what was happening within our own company and then systemically, broadly, I realized it's the right move.
But by the way, that's the benefit, the mental health stuff that I was telling you about.If you are to give them half a Friday off, Friday, we finish at noon local time.Whatever time zone you're in, that's a huge benefit.
And all I ask of you is, if you're a little busier on a Tuesday, give me a half hour more.You know, be flexible in that regard.If you've got a kid's baseball game, go watch your kid play.
It becomes rewarding both bilaterally, both to the company and the employee.
hundred percent and and people feel more accountable to you know both as well you know both their own well-being and and understanding they've been treated as adults and and they will repay that yeah and their good work so Sam that this is this has been incredible actually yeah we've had a lot of super interesting
thoughts about staffing, but also more broadly about people, which at the end of the day, the staffing industry is very much a people-centric business, and I think it's that holistic and mindful approach that a lot of leaders are thinking about how to adopt more and more.
Really appreciate your time.Thank you so much for being a guest on the Staffing Room Podcast.
It was a pleasure to have you here, and I'm sure our audience have gained a massive amount of benefit and understanding of produce and how you are leading the business.
Well, I appreciate having me, Jason.Thank you so much.This was a lot of fun.I actually really enjoyed this, so thank you.
Brilliant.Thank you again.
Right, everyone, that's a wrap.Thank you again for listening to the Startering Podcast, and we look forward to joining you for another episode.
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