Hey everybody, welcome to the book leads impactful books for life and leadership, I'm your series host and leadership performance coach john Jarmillo.
This podcast series is about getting to the books that have impacted the lives of the people my network leaders colleagues old and new I want to get to those books that have made an impact in their lives.
These are great leads to get to those books that have provided value. long-lasting value and have really made an impression on them.And the three categories of books that I cover in this series are a book that they cover with me that I've never read.
The second category is where we're both covering a book that we've read, both of us, in the past or specifically for the episode.
The third category is when I speak to the author and or publisher about the book that they want to get out there to the masses, sharing that tone, sharing those ideas with us. In this particular episode, my guest is Garrett Delph.
Garrett's mission is to help medium to large businesses transform operational chaos into system-led cultures that are repeatable and sustainable into the future.
As a founder, CEO, operator with proven and demonstrated success, he has spent the last 25 plus years building and scaling three businesses worldwide.
With established subject matter expertise and leading and scaling people, processes and culture, Garrett has a deep understanding of the critical role technology-first operational leadership plays in organizational success, particularly in specialized and high-stakes environments.
One of his professional strengths is the systematic Elimination of chaos through the implementation of proprietary operational frameworks, optimization of processes, alignment of teams, and the driving of sustainable growth.
The culmination of his approach is a sturdy operational transformation to ensure repeatable and sustainable success.
And Garrett's team had reached out when he had heard about the series, about coming on the series, sharing his background, his experience, and a book that has impacted him.
Anytime that happens, we go back and forth with that prospective guest and just to get a sense of who they are.They get a sense of my work and we decide whether or not to proceed with that conversation.
Obviously, I wanted to have Garrett here for this conversation to kind of glean his insights from his experience based on what I read in the bio.So Garrett, thank you so much for being here.
Hey, thanks for having me, John.Really, really happy to be here and have the conversation.
Absolutely.And so I always start with, who are you today, Garrett?If you could start with what the work that you're doing today looks like, what does your day to day look like?
So we get a sense of who it is that's sharing these insights for the coming book that we're going to discuss with us.
Yeah, great question.So my, my day-to-day is focused on my operational partnerships with founders, CEOs and C-suite that mostly are hyper-focused on growth.And they've hit sort of two, two challenges.
One is they got to the place where they are without building rails and infrastructure for scale. Or they got to the place where they're trying to break through.
They built infrastructure and rails for scale, but ignored it along the way as they focused on sales and marketing.And now they've become debilitated because the infrastructure which they once had is now gone.
So my primary role is to come in and restructure, reorganize. and load balance all of the moving parts.I call it the sort of the engine of success.
And so that in both of those scenarios, the businesses can get back to scaling for growth, but not at the cost of high stress, low happiness, and inefficient waste in the business.
Can you speak to that a little, just the last part that you spoke about, about happiness?How does that play into it?Because I mean, very, very rarely do you hear somebody talk about the work that they want to do.
I mean, you're hearing about it more and more.The work that they want to come in, help somebody scale up, become more efficient, really glean their business and take what they can from it and grow it and scale it.But then where does that piece fall?
Why does that piece fall into this for you? that attention, that acknowledgement, at least acknowledgement of the happiness components.
Right.You know, uh, man, John, by God's grace, I feel like it's, it's been this sort of perfect storm for me, um, in, uh, building my last couple of businesses, especially in, as we, you know, scaled internationally, uh, being, uh,
Not having at the time, any mentors or tools to understand how important it is.You take care of your people. and that really great companies are built by great people and companies that care about their people.I didn't know that.
And so I sort of fell into the bucket, which most founders do that want to grow and they're militant about growing, is you grow at all costs.And typically, that is at the expense of caring for your people, which I didn't know any better.
As along the way, as I realized that actually is really detrimental to the business and to the people.
Simultaneously, as I was going through my own growth curve there, I began to see in the marketplace and in the luck, you know, reoccurring conversations in the social channels about there's a sort of this revolt from the bottom where people were standing up and saying,
Hey, wait, I realize you pay me to work for you, but I'm not going to stand for toxicity.And I'm not going to stand for abuse, whatever form that comes in.
I actually, I'd rather not work for you and make less or not have a job than work for you and be part of that cancerous culture, you know. And as it turned out, I had my big epiphany in that area and was making drastic changes to change that.
And I do mean drastic.And so it was like the sort of really, like I said, perfect storm where I turned the corner and began to value, really value what that means in a business to care for people through structure.
And then it turned into actually becoming my, my halftime profession.And I, you know, I anticipate it will be until I'm done working, doing this current work.
Yeah. So Garrett, when it comes to you in the work and your company, what does that look like when you come into an organization?
Can you just give us, not giving away the secret, not giving away the recipe, but just an overview of what an example of what that might look like with an organization from your past, just like a general case study kind of overview?
Well, the trend I've known about, but now that I'm working with businesses, and, you know, they're lifting up their hoods and have been, and they show me kind of what their engine looks like, it's generally very normal for businesses not to have job descriptions.
and not to have orderly instructions and guidelines for people, process and performance.So typically, that's where I'll start putting my focus.On the people side, you know, we start looking at, Do you have an org chart?
And does your org chart have job descriptions that line, line up with titles, focus and activities?
Do you have employee handbooks that, even like little things, right, they tell them exactly how their vacation policies work, and who to go to when they want to take a day off and how, and how that's governed?
Do you have leadership playbooks, leadership agreements, cross-functionally, vertically and horizontally? And do you have process for your people?
These are just some, I know they sound really basic, but you may or may not be surprised, most businesses don't have them.And so do they have another area that's really important that I take a look at is, do you have career paths?
Where, you know, when you hire great people, they want to grow. They want to grow in title, and they want to grow in pay.So we'll take a look at that.To protect the business, always another important area looking at, do you have a succession plan?
So if your people leave, which they will, do you have methods and ways to pass the baton the moment, you know, really important people in your business, which you paid to develop IP, when they leave,
Is there a Saudi that can step in and pick up from where they left off with all of that knowledge transfer in place?
So there's like 60, 90 seconds of very important areas that tend to be pretty either underdeveloped or not developed at all that make a big difference in caring for people.
Yeah, you mentioned that these may come across as basic.What's incredible is, yeah, I've worked with and in different organizations that didn't have this stuff. And just because you have it doesn't mean you use it.That's what I mean.
You'll go through it and you'll see, you know, last update in 1993 or last 2007.It's like those are completely different worlds built on completely different technology based on.
I mean, just thinking about values, a different attention to the importance of values, to the importance of employee health, the way that you are talking about. toxicity in the workplace is looked at differently than it was 10, 15 years ago.
So that all dictates the wording that goes into these kind of manuals and handbooks.
So yeah, you say it's typically most of the time, it is the basic stuff that needs that's needed to improve organizations like they're just not even paying attention to the basic stuff.
They're shooting for the high stuff, but they're not working on their solid foundation.So I appreciate you sharing all those points that you consider when you, when you come into an organization.
Yeah, really, really well put.I, I like your, like, I haven't heard it put that way, but I, I think you're spot on.You know, it is the, the basics that actually, when harnessed and held fast to, make such an amazing difference in the org.
You know, you're talking about, you know, Last time it was updated was back in the nineties or something.It's a different world.
It's a completely different world.So yes, we may be thinking of like the, the economy, the marketplace is just a completely different world.You know technology, social media wasn't around back then.
So just the cultural zeitgeist is just completely different.And that dictates, believe it or not, how you're going to run your business.
The way people understood the workplace then, because of their mentality, was different compared to somebody coming into an organization now.Their expectations are just different.They would come in easier saying, OK, I'm here.
I got to adhere to what they want.I need the paycheck. We all still need that paycheck, whatever it may be.But now it's kind of like, OK, there is that matter of toxicity.There is that matter of acknowledgment of people.
You don't have to kiss my behind.But how is our working relationship?Because I do want to commit myself to an organization.And if that culture is not there, and people may say, well, the handbooks are different from culture.
No, but the handbooks show you what is priority in culture. Those are all setting up people for success.And if they come in and see that your handbooks haven't been updated since the last decade, that shows a lot.
That plants a seed in their mind that, OK, these people don't really, they're just looking forward to the goals, and they're not looking at their foundation.
Yeah, you know, when, great thoughts.You know, we give businesses a hard time and we're like, yeah, you have all of the sayings on the wall, but you don't abide by them.
And really what happened is at one point, the business, you know, these businesses that have their sayings on the walls and they have old outdated playbooks, at one point there was somebody there that cared.
But what they've failed to do is build in, you mentioned values.They didn't, they didn't hold fast to valuing culture.
And then they didn't build accountability structures to make sure that what they valued was upheld, continuously improved, iterated.
and continually updated as the future goes forward because this stuff has to constantly be updated because culture changes, the marketplace changes, customers change, people change, right?
And I think that those become the really important rails for continuously succeeding in these areas into the future.
And I mean, it's, it's a phrase that's come up, there's books written about it as a phrase that came up in a different conversation I had a few days ago.Yeah.Freedom through discipline.
You know what I mean?So that to me plays into this conversation where you want to innovate, you want to explore, you want to go out there and pitch your sales all over the place, fine.
You can gain that freedom if you have that discipline at home in your organization.So the more that you're organized, the more you can play.
Yeah.Yeah.It's amazing.It's amazing what good organization will do to the business and to the people.
Absolutely.Garrett, so for you to understand how you ended up here, can you give me some insights on
what your career started out as to date, just, you know, highlights, the overview, but starting particularly when you stepped into your education, whether it was college or not, maybe it was directly into the workforce.
How did you pick your direction?And then what did that look like to now?
Yeah, so I am a, I'm an accidental entrepreneur.Went to college, wanted to be an actor.Couldn't handle the rejection.Decided I still, I loved speaking.So I was like, well, I'll be Tony Robbins.
I want to be like Tony Robbins and be a motivational speaker.So I went and did, got a degree in speech communication.
After that, the Tony Robbins thing didn't work out, so I went and got a job, went to work for Gallo, learned a ton—Gallo Wine, largest winery in the world—learned a ton about sales and marketing.It was amazing.
Four years there, got drafted to another beverage company out of Boston, worked for them about 4 years.Again, learned more about distribution, about national and global marketing, a ton about really great sales.
And then after about 8 years, I just fell out of love with the corporate America. And so I didn't know what I wanted to do, but I know that I didn't want to do that.So I cashed in my 401k.I think it was like 13 grand.
I thought, I thought I was so rich, you know, uh, it's so funny looking back.Um, and then, um, I didn't know what I was going to do, but I, I had a couple of loves, a love for aquatics.
I have a pretty extensive aquatics background and I loved photography, even though I'd never owned a camera. So started teaching swimming lessons, bought a camera, started doing them both.Swimming lessons made me money.
Photography was just, I was like, if you're a human, I'll take photos of you.And after about a year, the photography thing became a business.
I put all my focus there, built a professional wedding and portrait photography business for the next 10 years. And we ended up doing 400 weddings over that time, had a large team. The film lab died in 2005.All of the film labs shut down.
Digital showed up.It was a radical inflection point.And we became the lab and the photography studio simultaneously.That was really painful.So I sought to solve my own problem.That turned into a new business, which was a digital lab.
driven by the internet, where photographers shooting digital media could just upload their photos to us, we would process them the way the old film lab would, and then we would send it straight back to them via the internet.
And that kicked off in 2007. went gangbusters and, you know, grew like crazy.And that really, my photography business, I definitely learned a ton about people and process and scaling.That became a national brand.
But it wasn't until my shoot.edit business showed up that I really was challenged with at least scale for a, you know, we'll call it a small business.
Ultimately that turned into hiring about 550 employees worldwide and a whole host of other really amazing things, but very complex, difficult problems. that I had to face.
And that brought me up to about 2020, where I had plenty of strong leaders in place.Sorry, 2022, plenty of strong leadership and leaders in place to run the businesses.
And I just really started thinking about what is my next contribution to my family, to the workplace.And I really felt like the, I didn't feel like, I fell in love with this sort of trifecta of taking people, process and performance
and organizing them for maximum output in a way where the business can scale in an orderly way, but also protects its people and cares for its people so that their efficiencies are maximized.
But they're also happy, you know, in general, much more happy.And then there's a cascade of positive benefits that hit the business and the people when you architect and you build the right way.So pretty, pretty darn amazing.
So you had mentioned before, I had asked you about the happiness component of your answer, then you went into why you believe that way.
Was there a particular point along this path you just shared with us where that really sunk in?
Yeah, yeah, there was it was a painful one probably back in um About 11 years ago, the chairman of my board at the time, who I had a great relationship with then and still do now, he came into my office, and he was like visibly kind of angry.
And he sat down, and he said, Garrett, if you don't stop micromanaging your people and your business, you're going to kill it. and you're going to harm them more than you ever can imagine.
And I didn't understand at the time what he meant, but I was eager to understand and learn and What that revealed was I was the classic entrepreneur that built a business that was succeeding but didn't have infrastructure.
And my gut response was to grasp at controlling everyone and everything because I didn't have control.It's really interesting things.And the big epiphany was, Dude, I'm operating in disorder.And that's causing so much pain.
And innovation delays, go-to-market delays, loss of quality, loss of speed, all of these bad things.Employee retention was horrible.
And when you say you're bored, the bored for the digital lab?
Oh, I'm board of directors.
But for the for the digital lab.
Yeah, that's right.Sorry about that.
And so that that took me just on this journey of like self reflection.Another good thing he taught me along the way was Anytime anything is going wrong, your job as the leader is to first ask yourself, Maybe it's me.And I really took that to heart.
And like I said, John, my big epiphany was, I was trying to scale and grow without a foundation of architected order and sturdiness.And
And, um, that's why I was such a micromanager because I was trying to control, trying to control everything because I didn't have control.
Yeah.Yeah.As you were telling that story, all I pictured was you trying to build the bridge as you were crossing it behind you, as opposed to the opposite scenario, that would be them behind you building it as you're pointing, which direction to go.
Because now at that point, they already have the manuals, the handbooks, they can tell you where the boards go and how to set them up for the sturdiness and whatnot for the structure.That's all I pictured was you try.
You tried to build a bridge so that they could cross with you as opposed to them building it.And you say, okay, from, from an overview, this is where we have to head.
Yes.Yes.Uh, you, you know, what else comes to mind as you're sharing that visual, which is a great one is the story of Lewis and Clark, you know, like true pioneers, but They didn't know where they were going or what they were doing.
And the amount of disaster they put themselves through and they put the people that they were leading through was astronomical.And obviously great things came as a result.I guess, you know, one could argue.
But, you know, in business, that's the wrong play.
Yeah.They were going into a frontier that was not known at all.Granted, business is the same way, but there are guideposts typically.You know the market you're going into.So the comparison, yeah.
But the severity of it makes you feel like that because there are dire results if you don't pay attention.
Yeah, I think there's enough history in business where 99.9% of ventures, you know, are not the Lewis and Clark.Probably there's that one, there is that one percentile that are true pioneers and they are bushwhacking every which way.
Amazon was one of them by the way.Right.But gosh, they're venture backed.They had so much money on their runway that they could burn. And, and weather that storm, you know.
Yeah.And when you say you went to college and you chose to study speech and communications, aside from like the Tony Robbins example and, and goal. Does it make sense for you that that's what you went into?
Did you have that kind of personality going into college, like the speaker, the orator of sorts?
I did.I sure did.What led me actually to acting was a lot of years on the speech tournament circuit. So, uh, junior high, high school and early college, there's, uh, which was called, you know, speech.We just called speech and debate.Yeah.
Uh, and I was always drawn to the oratory and I was always drawn to the, what were called, uh, dramatic interpretations of literature.
And so, um, it was the dramatic stuff that really I loved, which, which is, you know, kind of led me down the acting trail.
Where did that come from?I mean, I guess a lot of people, can relate to that, but was there anybody in your family that kind of made that impression on you of that, or was just something the dreamer knew as a kid, as a young person?
Yeah, that's actually a great question, John.No, there was nobody in my blood that I'm aware of that were actors.However, a ton of musicians.
Yeah.Yeah.You know, different outlet, but definitely, uh, you know, on the performance side, Garrett, for you, does it make sense?
And here's a followup to that.Does it make sense from your childhood, who you were as a kid that this is what you're doing now?
So now that they have to tie out specifically, or that you knew this is what you were going to do, but your personality as a kid, how do you reconcile that to what you're doing now? Wow.
Well, it's so funny.I don't think I would have ever imagined, because as a kid, I was the creative kid.So I loved the arts, loved just creativity.I really wasn't a scholastic kid at all.So I was always kind of driven by the right brain.
Um, and so it's been really interesting to watch over the years where, um, I, I, where it ended up really falling in love with was this sort of left brain side of things, which is fascinating.
Um, and I, I think it turns out my, my right brain really helps in that area. So they're a nice compliment.But no, never saw it coming.Photography, that worked out.That worked out, and that helped.
But I like that visual that you paint of the brain and the sides and where you were expressing yourself in the creative as a younger person.Now you're going more to the technical side.But I think it's great.I think the most successes that we see
come from that, being able to infuse one side into the other.Yeah.Yeah.Because I mean, you, you see the, you see the, the, the script of that side, but you're also carrying with you.Okay.What's possible.Where can I go?
You know, what can I sounds hokey, but what can I dream about?What, you know, it's, it's limitless what's available.If we just kind of get that curious with that, uh, with that creativity.
Love that.Yeah.And I figure too, you know, um, heck, we have both sides of the brain for a reason.And so to capitalize on both sides is pretty cool.Yeah.
Garrett, this is a new one, a new question I've asked the last couple episodes.And you may have mentioned it since we've been talking the last couple of minutes, but what's your superpower?What would you consider your superpower?
And I asked that question just because I love hearing people talk about or express specifically what they're good at.It's not a comparison to other people, but this is me.This is where I stand out.This is my superpower.
Yeah.John, I have a two part answer.And there's a dependency there.So, you know, I believe in God and I believe he created us and anything that good comes out of us comes from him.And so I, and so my source, of anything good is him.
So through him, I have superpowers.And as a result, where those have really begun to show up in the area of business, is architecting order organizationally in a business for scale.I would say that that is my superpower.
Somehow, someway, when I go into businesses, I just can see things that people don't see.I can't explain it.And fortunately, I know how to then take that disorder, the chaos, the disorganization, or the gaps,
and reorganize and re-architect so that the business can get after their goals faster and sustainably.
Would you say you're comfortable with chaos?Let's see.
I mean, obviously there's scales of how much chaos, but some people are really thrown off by any sense of chaos where it seems like you feel comfortable seeing the overall picture, picking the pieces apart and kind of putting it back together.
Yeah, you know, it's so funny.I, I especially feel comfortable with chaos when I'm the operational partner, especially, because I can see the forest for the trees, and I know the outcome.When it comes to my own businesses, I'm hyperallergic.
So I, I am, I'm probably a little bit more antsy.And that's fair.
There's, there's more on the line.So I'm a little more antsy and a little more, a lot more fast, because I can control my resources to, to fix it quick.Because I just cannot stand living in it when I'm living in it, you know.
And Garrett, one last question before we dive into the book.What does leadership mean to you?I think you've hinted at it, painted a picture around it, but is there anything else you would add to your definition of leadership and great leadership?
Yeah.By the way, the topic of leadership, we could probably talk for months on that one, right?
Absolutely.It's a moving target.
Oh, it is.It is.But I would say, I coined a little acronym a little while ago.I call it PI. you know, leadership hopefully can be as easy as pie.The P stands for being professional.The I stands for integrity.And the E stands for EQ or empathy.
And so I think that leadership is succinctly wrapped up into that pie acronym. And if we, you know, we won't get into it, but it's fun to then go Define Professional, Define Integrity, and Define Empathy EQ.
And when you define those out, you'll see, in my opinion, there you have a leader.And the one thing I would wrap that up with is Bill Campbell Uh, he is the, the focus of the book, the trillion dollar coach, uh, famous.
I actually read that.Did you?It's it's around here somewhere.Yeah.Okay.He had passed away, right?He did.
Yeah.Uh, but, oh man, it's such a great book, right?
Yeah.What were your, some of your takeaways?What do you, what do you think of that?
Well, what I was going to just, you know, end the pie thing with is, he said, which really impacted me, You cannot be a great leader unless you were first a great manager.And he attributes great management to being a professional.
And he attributes also the values that come with being a great manager, kind of just good old-fashioned caring for people. walking a mile in their shoes, having walked in their shoes.He attributes to, you know, do what you say you will do.
Lead from the front.You know, manage what you measure.All of, all of these pie attributes, you know, he, he says that in order to be a great leader, first you need to possess these.
And then people will naturally follow you because you've demonstrated by example that you are these things and you're trustworthy and dependable and faithful and timely.
Yeah, I read that book a couple of years ago and I can picture the cover in my mind like a blue cover, the title and him at the bottom with like he's got a hat on, like looks very, very casual.
And when I remember the book, I'm bad with specifics, but it was a great book.I just remember how He was just known in his industry.So people would just call him up and he would show up.
And it was kind of like he talked sense into these leaders that he was working with because he painted that picture that those considerations, those acknowledgements that they would have to put into place and really take on to move forward effectively.
But that was a great book.I forgot about that one.
Yeah.He he was an old football coach. And, um, part, part of his appeal was he was a no nonsense dude.Like he didn't tippy toe around.He was a straight shooter.He also was really charismatic and people loved him.
Um, uh, you know, so we had this really nice balance of, of care and accountability without, um, you know, he didn't worry about what people thought because he a hundred percent believes in everything he said.
And yeah, pretty great.Yeah, that honesty, that candor is powerful.That's come up on on this series before, just as long as it's coming from the right place.
And it's not about ego, it's not about condescension, but really telling the people, the person you're talking to the truth, for the betterment of them for the betterment of your organization that
Um, just that honesty is just such an important ingredient to add to that conversation.
Yeah.Yeah.I love that.And when you, when you, you know, uh, I love the word candor when you, when you balance, you know, candor with care. Um, people really respect that.I think they really do, uh, especially in business.
Like you have to get the work done.You have to execute.
Um, but if you also simultaneously, you know, like we've been talking, talked about a lot today so far, and that is, um, care for people through the way you design process and through the way you, you, uh, you execute, um, lots of different ways.
Uh, great things happen.Great things happen.
Yeah.And that candor with care, it's something you rarely see.Yeah.You know, rarely see because you'll have too much of one or too much of the other, but you rarely see that combination of just being matter of fact.
Maybe it's something nobody wants to hear, but you can tell the person saying it for the right reasons.Yeah.It's not to demonstrate their power.It's not to hold somebody down or put somebody down.It's like,
you just don't see it enough where it's like, OK, let's talk about where the foundation really is, where we really are before we start building up.So I love that that came up in this conversation.
Garrett, at this point, why don't we jump into the book that you wanted to discuss and kind of give us some insights on how you came across the book?
Yeah, so the book I had shared with you that I would love to talk about is called Becoming Facebook, the 10 challenges that defined the company that's disrupting the world.And I read this back actually in 2017.
And it was written by Mike Hofflinger, who was there at the time.I think he was there seven years, five or seven years.
He was their director of global business marketing and really was the key driver around their decisions and approach to scaling innovation.
And, you know, he just, that's what the book is about, their monumental vision and about, you know, what often most people probably would view as insurmountable mountains and challenges, but because they focused by design, by design on people, culture,
execution and doing the unprofitable difficult things she believed was the reason that they Have changed the world the way they have So for you in looking at this book I
what is it that stands out in terms of, or what is the path that the author takes the reader on?What's that journey?
Because I'm always just curious about what somebody's going to find in the book, start to finish, but an overview, like what did the chapters look like?How does he tell that story?
Yeah, well, In reading that book, I actually connected the dots to my business in the past, and really the way he structured the book was into people, process, and performance.
And then the the book kind of takes you on this journey of Challenges which were both vision based tech based and people based And then it gets very Technical into
how they solved their technical problems, how they approached their people challenges.
And then also, they, he does a really good job of getting into the measurable metrics of once you, you know, build these solutions and strategize for how you're gonna take those to market, how you have to, how they had to, and how he suggests you must go about
building accountability structures to sustain that execution into the future.And then there's other things.He often comes back to Zuckerberg
and give Zuckerberg quite a bit of credit, which, you know, he's got, you know, varying degrees of, you know, interpretations about the kind of leader he is.
But Mike thought he was a pretty great leader, especially when it came to vision, strategy and culture. And so like, sometimes he would rabbit hole here and there.One of the rabbit holes I loved is he talked about how Mark was relentless.
And by the way, I think for any business leader, founder, CEO, that isn't focused on winning, he was relentless about winning.And And he was a future caster.
So he would, Mark's thing was, he would look to, to optimize for the current platform and make sure that his advertisers and his customers were taken care of.But he would simultaneously be building the next platform.
And then simultaneously, a portion of their resources and energy would be building for the next, next platform.He called it the trifecta effect. And so that's the weave I experienced throughout the book.
But it always, always came back to people, culture, execution, and doing the difficult things because you have to.
What are some of those difficult things in terms of that book, in terms of Facebook?The difficult things.
Yeah. One of the big difficult things was doing things that were unprofitable, which I really love.I really love that Mike talked about this.And prior to the show, actually, I was just kind of reviewing some of my notes from the book.
So that's in chapter 15, where he talks about a lot of businesses Most businesses, irrespective of side, they pursue the revenue.They pursue sales and marketing.They forget about infrastructure.They forget about rails.They don't focus on culture.
They don't have accountability structures.They just want sales, sales, sales.And he gave Mark the credit.Mark was smart enough to go like, Hey, if we're gonna win, we have to have a foundation. we have to have a foundation.
And so he calls that doing the unprofitable stuff.Another thing he talked about that was really difficult, but highly valuable and very rewarding to the business of the people, and that was pursuing by design, hiring and finding the right people.
And he talks about defining great, first define what great is for the great people that you wanna hire and then go find them.And then another difficulty they faced continuously is the toxicity that wants to rear up in culture.
And so the way they combated the difficult parts of culture is they prioritized focus and unity, which I love.I think it's unfortunate that we have to go find these nuggets in a book that most people don't read.
But there's a reason why these companies win. you know, it's just not talked about.And also it turns out they're the one or 2% that actually win because they're busy doing, not busy, you know, pontificating.
Yeah.Yeah.And it's, it's so tricky with those, with those, um, kind of businesses or, you know, many, many kinds of businesses across different industries where they're instead of living or working that infinite game, right?
Getting everything solid first, they're trying to keep up with quarterly earnings.You know what I mean?They're just living a quarter at a time.
So it's always fascinating when some organizations can really take stock of what's important and really build it the right way. Uh, I don't think he ever imagined where that company would be when he was building that page in his dorm room at Harvard.
And it's easy for people to pontificate, to criticize from the outside, but I mean, I don't think we can really comprehend the scale of what he and his team have built in the last, I don't know what it's coming up on 20 years or something like that.
Even earlier than that, I think he was in school in the nineties.So.
Yeah.No, I'm with you.And yet simultaneously, you know, he has demonstrated that He brought to the org and still continues to bring to the business and the org and the people grit, determination, focus, right?
Like these, you know, doing the hard stuff.And I think those are winning traits, you know?And I think they're by and large missing in most businesses.And I think the stats prove it.Nine out of 10 businesses fail.
I read a stat recently that said it's actually a little higher than that.And so it's all of these, the DNA of these moving parts in this engine of success.It's a thousand moving parts, John, right?
I like to say it's either death by a thousand cuts or success by a thousand optimizations.
And I think Facebook, and many others, by the way, but, you know, Facebook has demonstrated they are in the relentless pursuit of a thousand optimizations and they refuse to become legacy.
Garrett, you had said the book came out in 2017.
That's when I read it.I don't know if it came out in 2017, though.Yeah.
I'm just curious of your take of what you read in the book versus everything that's happened since. Because like we said, the world evolves so quickly.
You admire the company, the work, the grit, the unpopular decisions it has to make, the unprofitable work it has to do.But do you have some kind of take on when the book was written versus how Facebook is operating now?
I mean, there's just so many things that have changed in that time.
Yeah.You know, I don't, and I did want to maybe just quickly comment.I'm not like a Facebook fanboy.I just love a good founder story.I love a good business story.And that's, you know, That's all I took it as.
I didn't see you here as a surrogate for Zuckerberg or anything like that but I'm fascinated obviously with you having built various businesses I'm curious.I was just curious what your take was.
based on what you read in the book and what that company, because you read it in 2017, didn't come out in that year.
But even from then to now, things have changed so much, where you have the first, I don't know, whatever, couple of years where it's like, OK, we're still a young company.Now we're in the mid-range.Now we're in the longer range of our existence.
That company's just, I think it's like the one company we talk about every day. It's incredible.Obviously it's global reach.So I'm curious about that.
It's just what that company has gone through now in like these later years versus those formative years, because the landscape is changing and it's always got a target on its back.
Yeah.Let's see. I actually, John, I don't know enough about how they're operating now versus how they're operating then.
Like for example, one of their Northstar metrics that they, it took them a couple of years to figure out this was the thing that was gonna catapult their growth, was they needed to see a brand new user be on the platform every single day for two weeks straight from the moment they join.
weird.It took them two years to figure out that there was a direct correlation, measurable correlation between that metric and the user staying on the platform and becoming a permanent user.
So there's something that probably, I don't know, but I would guess probably doesn't apply these days because of all of their different products that they've launched and acquisitions that they've made.So there's an example.
That said, I think the primary principles that I learned and read about in the book again, going back to kind of the, the 4 categories, people, culture, execution, and doing difficult things, I think those still apply.
And I think those principles will continue to apply in, in business.
So you can transfer those to other businesses.So if somebody was maybe thinking about reading this book, they're like, well, I'm not in the tech field, so it doesn't apply to them.
You still have lessons in there that people can draw out for other industries.
Unequivocally.Oh, oh, yeah, uh hundred hundred percent I mean, you know his thoughts about um Zuckerberg's like on people him realizing i'm I'm going to be, and I need to be the vision guy.I'm going to be, and I need to be the strategy guy.
I'm going to be, and I need to be the culture guy.Like this is my, this is my, my wheelhouse.He also, he also realized engineering as much as he was sort of the original engineer, he could not compete.So he needed to find great people.
to lead that product.He realized, I'm not a product guy.I need experts in this area.When it came to global business development, that's not his sweet spot.
So like, that principle of understanding where you're strong, you mentioned earlier, your superpowers, and being able to bring the most value to your lane.
And then, and then finding the areas of the business that you have gaps or need expertise and properly placing them, like that principle applies.And I just can't imagine it ever going away.It's a critical path.
Garrett, when it comes to you, just based on your experience, where you find your passions and your work, your career, your businesses, do you see any writing in your future?
Anything that you want to get to, to kind of contribute to just that world of organizational structure and people and everything that we've talked about in this conversation?
Yes, yes, that has been a, I think the last 18 months, there's been a book baby growing in me. Yeah.
No, I was just going to say, just based on your experience, everything you've done to date, the different fields that you've worked in, obviously the interest that you have just in learning about Facebook through the book that you've shared.
I'm always just curious, based on people's experiences, their own unique voice, their own lessons, what they can put together in a package and share with the world.That's why I ask.
I appreciate that.Yeah, I think, you know what, I think about it a lot, actually, and I get really overwhelmed. about how do you do that?How do I take all this stuff in my head and put it into a book?
But thank you for asking the question because it added a little fire into me about the opportunity.
You just got to get started.And granted, I'd love to write a book.I'm on that same kind of path, a similar parallel path.I don't have your experience.I haven't built the companies that you have.But yeah, just get started.You say it's overwhelming.
You got to think of yourself, I guess, as one of these organizations that you go into.They're getting ahead of themselves, kind of getting overwhelmed.It's like, OK, let's stop.
put the processes in place here, the different manuals for you, they'd be chapters on how to do different things.
But I think I'd be interested, especially for you as somebody who wanted to go into acting, oration, expression, the creativity, I'm always interested when somebody can bring, and you probably would just because it's in your nature, it's there somewhere.
That was like your foundation.It's always interesting when somebody incorporates that kind of creativity and insight into the technical work of the business.So count me a reader whenever you put that book out.
Awesome, John.Likewise.Likewise.Maybe we can hold each other accountable.
Absolutely. And Garrett, in wrapping up, is there anything that you're up to these days that you want to share?Anything I might not have asked?You know, we're limited on time.I always have more questions.
But is there anything that you'd want to share that I didn't cover at all?Please, the floor is yours.
Yeah, thanks, John.Well, Yeah, yeah, I'll share this thought.My hypothesis is that there is a new generation of leadership And there's a new generation of teammates.And I guess everybody in an org in some form or fashion is a leader.
But when I say leader, I'm referring to the people that are paid to and charged with making the sort of, you know, macro decisions for the biz.And I, this new generation doesn't want the old way of doing things. They don't want to win at all cost.
They actually do want and are looking for work, true work-life balance.
They are looking for environments in business that are orderly, where the business wants to win, have a vision for success, a path for it, and the business is able to articulate that to the people.And, um,
And so I think my encouragement to myself and to your listeners is, if that's you, lean in.Lean in.
Because I think that wave is coming, and the more people talk about it and acknowledge that it's actually good and healthy, I think the, the faster the ripple effect will make its way into the business marketplace.
I've really been thinking a lot lately about this idea.Most of us, we have to work for a living because we need money to live.And so, which means most of us spend eight, 10, 12, 15 hours a day at our workplace.
And if that workplace is toxic, if it's high stress, low happiness, if it's chaotic, if it's disorderly, that creates all of this negative emotions in our mind and heart, which then we take home.
So which means we're being paid to be stressed out, and then we're being paid to take that into our personal life too.And I think the new generation gets that. and they don't want it, they don't want it anymore.
Our parents were all in, but the new generation doesn't.And so that's my hypothesis, but also for those who agree with me, I just wanna like fan you into flames and encourage you to go make it happen.
And connect with people, don't do it alone, connect with people that are like-minded, that agree with you and make a change.
And Garrett, for you, did you, I mean, obviously that echoes a lot from the pandemic, but what were your views on the state of work through the pandemic?
Did you see an uptick in the work that you were doing because of the impact of the pandemic and just organizations really trying to be thorough and
just focused on what employees needed, whether they stayed there or they've made their way back to past practices to be debated.But what are your thoughts on just the pandemic?Obviously, it aligns with what you're saying.
Did you see it accelerate that that mindset?
Uh, you know what?It was twofold.Uh, I think on, on one hand as, um, you know, most businesses in the world were forced to, um, send people home and no longer work in the brick and mortar location or at the office.
And, and, uh, that, that was like a huge blessing for people not to have to spend, you know, one, two, three hours a day commuting.
And to have this personal time back, I think that was a big eye-opener for me, for all of our teammates, and you and I probably agree for the world.On the flip side, there was this, you know, difficult thing that came with us, with it.
And that is, you know, we're, we're social creatures. And after a while, I think there became this undercurrent of, ooh, I'm kind of lonely.I miss the water cooler talk.
I miss going into wherever we break for lunch, whether we go out or we sit in wherever you break for lunch and hang out with people.That kind of went away. Actually, it went away.And remote, remote can't satisfy that, you know.
And so I, I love, I, my big takeaway is, going back to work-life balance, I think this, the idea of hybrid is golden.And now that it's being accepted, I think it's such a great balance, you know.
Yeah.Oh, yeah, absolutely. There's experiences with my kids that I wouldn't have had if I was still in the office five days a week, you know, nine to five.Um, yeah, it's, it's been a blessing, especially in formative years.
My kids are on the younger side, but it's been incredible.So, you know, my kids are nine, nine, five, and two.
So we're talking about little stuff like taking them to the bus stop, picking them up at the bus stop, taking them to camp, picking them up from camp, just being there, not having to wait an hour and a half, two hours after they've been home to see them.
I'm there from the get-go and it's more family time, obviously.So it's a silver lining to a global tragedy, but I'm grateful for that time. And again, the book that we covered with Garrett was Becoming Facebook by Mike Hoflinger.
Garrett, thank you for your time.Thank you for just going through your background, your experience, your work, your businesses, and just the book itself and just how we can apply those kind of mentalities and modalities to just
I like the ability to just transfer that attention to other areas where it's kind of, again, just that freedom through discipline, getting the work done.So you're building off that right foundation.So I appreciate your time so much.
Yeah.Thank you so much, John.Really appreciate being here and talking shop.Really great stuff.
If there's anything I might've missed that you think I should have asked, obviously limited on time, but if you do think there's something I could have asked or gotten into, please shoot me an email and I'll reach out to Garrett and see what kind of insights, guidance, knowledge I can get back.
In the meantime, thank you for watching.Thank you for listening and I'll talk to you soon.Take care.Bye.
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