Hey, everybody, welcome to the book leads impactful books for life and leadership.I'm your series host and leadership performance coach, Jon Jaramillo.
This podcast series is about getting to the books that have impacted the lives of the leaders in my network.
So these are great leads to get to those books that have impacted their business, their entrepreneurial endeavors, their lives, their work, whatever it may be, all those worlds intersect.
And the three categories of book that I cover in this series are the first category where my guest is sharing a book with me that I haven't read.
The second category where it's a book that we've both read, whether specifically for the series or in our past lives before the series itself.
The third category is when I get to talk to the author and or publisher of the book to hear in their voice, their tone, what it is that they want to put out there with the book itself, the message that they want to get out to the masses.
And this particular episode is very unique where it's kind of a combination of all those, well, the second and third, where I have read the book before I had my guest on, and it is the author of the book.And we'll jump to that in a minute.
But my guest today is Susan Drum.
And Susan is a CEO, is a CEO, advisor, speaker, USA Today bestselling author, and leadership coach, focusing on helping leaders and their teams to develop the capacity and mindsets to lead in today's disruptive environment.
She has personally coached billionaire CEOs, high profile political figures, prominent Fortune 100 executive teams, and incredible entrepreneurs that set out to disrupt the marketplace.
She's a two time number one bestselling author of the Leaders Playlist, Unleash the Power of Music and Neuroscience to Transform Your Leadership and Your Life.
Susan's YouTube channel and podcast, The Enlightened Executive, is ranked in the top 2% of podcasts globally.In the show, she spotlights groundbreaking techniques and strategies to help executives and entrepreneurs
get the edge in personal and leadership effectiveness.
Susan's firm, Meritage Leadership Development, works with C-suite executives from financial services, private equity, tech, healthcare, professional services, media, consumer products, consulting, and law.
She's worked with organizations such as KPMG, Oracle, Viacom, Microsoft, Conde Nast, L'Oreal, A&E Networks, USS Steel, and Cisco. And again, this was great because I had read Susan's book.I think I looked it up yesterday I think it was March of 2023.
I forget how I had come across it may have been may have been Harvard Business Review maybe it was a mention somewhere Susan and I love music.
So I love that connection between music and leadership and what it can do for you and how it stimulates your mind, how it can impact your attitude, how you feel about yourself, how you feel about the day, if you will.
So it was incredible when I read that.And you and your team reached out about coming on to this series to share a little bit more about the book.So I'm honored to have you here.I thought it was an amazing book.
Oh, thank you so much.I'm so excited to be here with you and talking about it.
So when it comes to you, great bio gives a great overview of the work that you do.But when it comes to your day-to-day, what does your work look like?Is it obviously one-on-one, but is it any group work?
What does it look like navigating your work that I laid out in the bio itself?
Yes, yes.Well, with my firm, we've got about 20 coaches that we use in our program, so I don't do that much one-on-one coaching anymore.I reserve it for about five clients.I do do some of the group workshops.
We do team coaching as well as cohort-based coaching, and cohort would be you know, you want to take your VPs through a program, and that's usually for larger type organizations.
Or team coaching, where the executive team wants to really work on how they can be more strategic or more
influential in shifting culture or driving a cultural shift that they want in the organization, or how they collaborate more effectively together.
So it's, basically, the work we're doing is a combination of one-on-one coaching, team coaching, and group workshops and cohort.
Beautiful.Now, Susan, to understand how you got here to the work you're doing, the book that you've written, can you give me a little more about
how you came up in terms of, I usually ask my guests if they can explain how they stepped into the workforce or education.What is it that guided them into their career?And then what did that career look like up until now?
It sounds like a heavy lift, but we usually get through it with a nice overview, just to kind of get a little more about you, who you are, what your background is.
Yeah, I have a pretty eclectic background when someone looks at it.But the fascinating thing is each part of the step infuses the leadership development work that we do today.So at the time, I didn't know it.
And so looking back, I went to, I grew up in Pittsburgh, and I went to Carnegie Mellon undergrad with a business degree.And then I went straight into Harvard Law School.
Now, I didn't end up practicing law because I didn't like it when I was in law school I felt this feeling like oh my gosh I'm graduating with all this loan debt, both from undergrad and graduate school. And I don't want to be a lawyer.
What am I going to do?And I started taking classes at Harvard Business School at the same time and transferring them over and recognizing that, you know, I think I just want to go into business.Let me see what type of job I could get from here.
But the interesting thing is that law teaches you how to make finer and finer distinctions.In fact, the LSAT is all about which of these things is not like the other, right?And testing your aptitude in that.
And the use case of that is to apply to case law such that you could argue why this case is relevant or why this case is not relevant.But I use that same skill set now in how
to help leaders make finer and finer distinctions about mindset and really having them become aware of what is the specific lens by which they're viewing something.
As human beings, I think we think we can see 360 degrees like a chameleon, but we can't.We have a central vision and a peripheral vision.And where we point our focus of attention, that's what we see.So what I do is I help leaders.
And that initial training at Harvard Law School sort of taught me to show this is the lens you're wearing, and this is the blind spot that you're not seeing.And I think that that helps illuminate for them
where they have opportunity that they didn't see before.So I did that.And from there, I was able to get into management consulting.This is back in, this is dating me, 1995.
And I was one of the first, what they called non-traditional hires into the Boston Consulting Group. And this is when they were taking, they decided to take law students in addition to MBAs.
And I was thrilled because I felt this was a much closer match to my skillset.And I really got trained how to develop this sort of coaching and consulting mindset. in management consulting.
But what management consulting really taught me is how to analyze strategically where a company needs to go and what the market opportunities are for them.What I found over time is I did not enjoy some of the types of industries I was doing this for.
I remember I had a project that was about hydroelectric turbines. you know, the market share for that.And I just didn't care.
Yes.And so I felt like once I developed the skill set, the application of it wasn't interesting to me.So from there, I decided to get into an industry that seemed just a lot more interesting to me, which was media.
And I went to work for NBC television. in their network sales and marketing division.But I came in, interestingly, under GE, because GE used to own NBC.
And they had a program called Six Sigma, which was primarily used for manufacturing-based businesses.But they wanted to also apply it to to NBC.So in a way, I was an internal consultant, but my title was something very interesting.
If you know anything about Six Sigma, it was black belt.I was a black belt in Six Sigma.And I got trained under the whole GE network, wonderful training.
What I learned in that is you can have the best strategy in the world, but if the culture doesn't support that, you're dead in the water.
And while there were amazing insights to Six Sigma, there was a huge resistance to NBC adopting the players that I had to work with to adopting this, just feeling like this is for a manufacturing business.
This isn't for an entertainment company, right? And what I had to do was find a way to be able to use data to make some compelling arguments that they would find useful.
And, you know, because Six Sigma is really about finding, using statistical analysis to find the variation in processes.
Definitely probably not my strongest gift in this arena, but what it did harness in me is how do we use data to measure the unmeasurable or what seems unmeasurable?
And I believe that same skill set, and that's what I had to do at NBC, is show, you know, if they were there, I showed them how Nielsen data could be used in a whole unique way that would give them a selling, you know,
upper hand by looking at, this was just when pharmaceutical companies started selling on networks.Now you turn on, you can't get away from a pharmaceutical.I mean, I can't watch one show without it, but back then it had just started.
And I was like, there is an opportunity here and I'm going to build some marketing material around that and use the data in a way that supports them.And you know, this was the first time they had seen anything like that.
So what I use that skill today is how do we measure leadership, right?It all feels squishy and soft, like, that guy's a good leader.She's not a good leader.You know, she's a great leader.
And, and so I'm very interested in tools and diagnostics that give us a window to measure leadership effectiveness, because I know when you can do that, it makes all the difference.So that played into it.And then
I left NBC and really I was at a loss for what am I gonna do with the rest of my life because I'm just not that interested in, like I didn't find my passion, right?There wasn't anything, I was like, yeah, I'm doing this, this is interesting.
And so I decided to take a break.I'd moved to London for a couple of years and just do something I'd always wanted to do, which is I got a master's in acting. from the London Academy of Music and Dramatic Art.So this is five years after law school.
And most people thought it was crazy.And I don't know why it was just. I wasn't motivated or passionate about anything, and this is something I was passionate about.So I decided to do it and see where it led.And I loved it.It was fantastic.
But what it taught me is what I use today is this ability to deal with that inner critic, that voice inside your head, or at least get present to, you do have a voice inside your head, right?
And how are you going to connect with other leaders and be authentic about it, right?And other colleagues and team members.
And I kept thinking as I was going through this, after having not some of the greatest leadership boss experiences for myself, there's got to be a way I can bring this to business.
And then when I came back to the States, I did pursue acting for a couple years, but found I was really interested in taking all the culmination of what I had learned and bring it back to business.And that's how I got into leadership development.
So I've been doing leadership development for over 20 years now, before I think people even knew what that was.I remember I used to say, I do leadership development.You're like, what?I don't know what that is.And now everyone knows what that is.
But yes, that's how I got started.And each one of these pieces really fueled that work in leadership development and I still use today.
Yeah, it's similar to my journey in terms of you, you're, you're pivoting and shifting as you go.And all these things look haphazard, like they don't relate to what you just did.But it's where your interest is in those moments.
And then at the end, you turn around and each one, like you said, each one kind of fuels something in you.So I think when you get to those, you know, 2, 3, maybe 4 changes in, you kind of take the best pieces of each of those.
So that I love that you pick something up from law school, you pick something up from business school, you pick something up from being a black belt, you pick something up from acting, and then you kind of combine all those those mindsets, those focuses to to do what you're doing now.
So I find that fascinating.
Yeah.Yes.And I, you know, I often, some younger, some of the younger generation when they're feeling lost and like, there's such a pressure to figure it out so early.And I said, it's okay if you don't figure it out.It's about collecting experiences.
Cause if you stay open, the background will come together.And I remember that feeling like, what am I going to do with my life?I don't know.
You know, and it will, if you keep looking and keep pursuing where that sort of bliss or passion will come from, you will find it.
Yeah, I think, you know, each of us learns that as we go, where we start appreciating the journey. as opposed to there has to be that definitive goal, there has to be that perfect career when I leave college.
We learn the value of just being in these different experiences.But you're right, there is that pressure.
I think most of us had that when we leave college, we're going to be in that career that we're meant to be in, or we have to figure it out by that time.And it's, it's incredible to think I graduated college, I don't know, 25 years ago.And
the majority of my joy has been that exploration since then.And none of it really had to tie into what I studied in college, but it all, even my college degree, contributes to what I'm doing now.So thank you for sharing.
Susan, when it comes to you, how do you reconcile who you are today to your childhood?Meaning, not that you have to make sense of the path and the path that you took to where you are now, but
you were as a child, how does that play into who you are now?
Yes, well it plays in a lot.I mean, as we'll talk about in the book, even in part of the book, highlights how our childhood wounds and experiences play into our leadership today.And they give you a superpower, but they also can come with a liability.
And helping leaders see what that liability is and how to soften it and grow beyond it is a lot of the leadership development work today.So for me personally, as a child, I just loved having fun.You could drive past a...
playground and all I wanted to do was stop and get on those swings.And I think this inherent sense of play is something that I'm continuing to return home to.
Like if I'm in a spirit of play, then creativity is fostering and that's where I produce the best work.But if I get to
Oh, let's say produce results, goal, like a little bit then, and I lose that sense of play and creativity, the best of who I am doesn't come out or shine.
Absolutely.I love that, too.So what would be your superpower?I know it's in the book, but how would you summarize your superpower?This is a new question that I've thrown.
I think this is maybe out of the 100 episodes I've put out, maybe this is the second time I've asked this. And I ask it because I love when people know what they're good at.Yeah, it's not something out of ego.It's not about being braggadocious.
But I think people, especially when I talk to students, you need to know what you're good at.What what do you believe separates you from the person next to you?So what what do you think your superpower is, Susan?
I think my superpower, at least I've certainly been told this as well, is pattern recognition and disruption. And really, that's what my book is about.It's how to leverage music to recognize patterns and disrupt them.
But even, you go back to, how did I get into Harvard Law School?I took eight practice tests.And I noticed the patterns and the types of questions they were asking.
So I could anticipate what the potential answers would be when I actually took the test. only missed two questions, scored in the 98th percentile just by doing that.
And so there's something for me around that pattern recognition and disruption to ultimately create freedom, because I am motivated and driven by fun and freedom.So wherever we're feeling stuck, I want to unleash that and give people back freedom.
And at least for me personally, in that freedom comes fun.
Beautifully said.And then one last question before we jump into the book.What does leadership mean to you?We've spoken about it.You've spoken about leadership, what you've seen, what you haven't seen, what tends to be missing.
Is there anything else that you might add to that definition, how you view leadership?
Well, leadership for me is learning how to catalyze a group to produce a powerful outcome, a meaningful mission.And so it's truly about how do I create the capacity in my team?
How do I create the inspiration in my team to achieve something that together we could never have achieved individually?
I love that.Just. I think that's part of that alchemy of just seeing what people can do together.No group of people will produce the same output as the next just because there's just so many different experiences, what people bring to the table.
And I love how you've spoken about healing and liabilities and what people can bring to the table from your experience.And a lot of that is in your book.So we can jump into the book.
When did you start thinking about this book?When did this start kind of percolating in your head, this idea of putting out a book, much like the book that you've put out?When did that originate with you?
At least, I want to say, 7 years ago, maybe.I had wanted to write a book, and I knew I enjoyed writing, but I didn't know what I wanted to write about.
But one of the things that was really important to me is I did not want to rehash the same leadership concepts that are rehashed 5 million times.I mean, how many books on feedback are there?How many books on building trust?
And I said, I just want to bring something new and fresh and unique. Because if it wasn't that, why do it?Now, I understand people have their unique take on building trust.And so I'm not discounting that at all.Just for me, it was really important.
And because those stakes that I had set for myself were kind of high, it took me a while to circle in on what is that then?What will be groundbreaking that we haven't heard different flavors of?
And of course, I start to look to my own life of the trials and tribulations that I've been through and how did I heal through them?How did I transform through them and what did I use?
And what I found was that I was able to use music to help shape and build new habits And what I talk about in the book is neural pathways that would help me get out of stuckness and create that freedom I was seeking.
Yeah.Again, the healing aspect, that's what, in the end, after I read your book, and I went through it again because it'd been over a year since I read it, and I went through and I took the
the how you mark up the margins when somebody shares something great.But I love the fact that you approached it that way, that you're like, there are already books on feedback.There are already books on trust.
And again, even though your voice is important in those areas, it was interesting to see a book like that that was unique.It was a different spin.
It was a different take on what you could make important, a tool that you could use, that everybody has at their disposal, their music. So what, what, I guess before anything, what, what was your, how important was music in your life?
What were you into?What kind of music were you into?
Music's always been important in my life.I have this weird, you know, side superpower, which is I seem to know the lyrics to every song that comes on.I can't remember who sang it.
I might not know the title, but somehow, you know, you can bring music back from, like, obscure things.If I heard it and I was aware of what the lyrics are, I was like, well, how do I remember that?Like, that's just bizarre.
And so I think there's something there.And my mother, unfortunately, I don't play an instrument.I did sing when I was younger.And now I sing to myself mostly.
But my father was extremely musical.
and played, I think, four different instruments.And my mother, I remember, really knew I had the same musical ear that he did.He could play by ear.So wanted me to learn to play an instrument.
And I wish I had done that, but I was such a go-go child that I could not sit down long enough to really practice.Like repetition was not something that I liked to do.And also I would, my memory was really good.
I would memorize how to do the music as opposed to learn how to read music.So I would more quickly adopt what my, like this memorization side that I was so strong at.And I never really learned to to learn to read music, that part.
So I wish I had, but it's still, music is just, I've just been present to its impact on me, and that's a lot of what I'm writing about in the book.
So Susan, can you go into the book and overview just, I'm familiar with the book, but for the audience, just what is that, how did you decide to craft that path for your reader?
Yes, so it's really about recognizing patterns that are holding you back and leveraging music because of its impact on the brain to help you become aware of those patterns and shift them.
And in the book, I tell nine short stories of leaders who were stuck in patterns that didn't serve them, that I've worked with over the years, and what that pattern looked like, how they identified it,
than how they used music to interrupt that pattern and how they literally created a new playlist to help them build that new pattern or new sets of behaviors that would better serve them in the leadership that they needed based on their current environment.
And so I say the word playlist both figuratively and literally. So the figuratively is like, you've got this playlist playing in the background, which is your pattern.And you may or may not be cognizant of that.
You may recognize like, why do I always do that?Or why do I always get triggered by that?That's a playlist that's going on.And so the literal is music's, and I write about the music's impact on the brain.
Music lights up all four regions of your brain. it is, if you can think of it like a fertilizer that allows the pathways, there's a phrase, neurons that fire together, get wired together.When you pair something with music, that
pairing happens faster and more efficiently than without.So if you're looking to make a change in your life, why not leverage the power of music to make that change happen more quickly?Yeah.
And I have your book right here.Yeah, it is a very quick read, but it's one of those books where it's a quick read, but like every sentence, every paragraph matters. Like it has all the information it's got, it references other books.
It provides a great amount of research to back up just that the neuroscience piece of it.So it's incredible that you can put all this in here from your own personal experience, your own personal understanding and doing the research.
I'm curious in writing it, what lessons did you take away? You know, how did your view on the matter, on the subject matter change, or how did you evolve just from putting this book out?
Yes, yes.Well, part of the impetus to write the book was how, and I alluded to this, how music helped me shift a pattern.And that pattern was, in my personal life, I had
ended a significant five-year relationship, and it was quite painful, one, given the circumstances.And I couldn't seem to move past the feeling of resentment that I had regarding that
relationship and what had happened and what I learned and what I discovered.And, and I knew as a coach that wasn't, that this loop of resentment wasn't serving me.I mean, you have to, yes, you have to feel these feelings and process them.
But I, I felt stuck in it, could not seem to move past. And at one point, I just like, I know this isn't serving me, but I don't know how to, like, I don't know how to break out of this pattern.
And so I created, I noticed that when I put a piece of music on, and for me in particular, at the time it was Bruno Mars, 24 Karat Magic, it just sort of made me forget about it.It sort of shifted the energy of, of what I was doing.
And so I put together a whole playlist that I titled, I Am Empowered. And I would wake up to that in the morning.I would go out in nature, go hiking and listening to that.
And then anytime I felt myself starting to like latch on to something, I'm like, nope, not going to go there.Not going to not interrupt.And I would use that music to sort of build up.And the more I did that, the more I felt I could let that go.
And it was a cognitive, like a conscious choice. Right.I could now I had the ability to step back and it wasn't on automatic pilot.
Yeah.So that's what I was going to use is automatic.It wasn't, you know, a brief fleeting thought triggers this, this cascade of emotions.
Exactly.Exactly.And so then I started experimenting with this concept with my. clients and saying, I've seen where, like I said, I see pattern recognition and I would see where they're stuck.
Let's try to use music as a way to get you unstuck and build more conscious choice so that you don't keep doing that thing that you're doing that's not serving you.
What was, I'm curious, what was their, as you were starting this out using this process, what was their, how did they take it?What was their reception?How did they receive it?
Well, usually I will first ask, do you like music?Do you listen to music?And just to see if there's, usually almost everyone says yes.Every now and then there might be someone's like, well, I'm not sure.And so I describe what this process is.
And usually then they get on board.They're willing to try it and test it out.
So I think that there's an openness to it because we're spending a little time recognizing what the pattern is and then how they might, they're like, I'll try it, sure, why not?Like nothing else is working.
Yeah, it's incredible how even aside from this process, generally in coaching, generally in a conversation you may have with somebody,
how most often just that question you may pose or an observation you may make changes the way that person, that's kind of like the evidence, that's the stereotypical picture of it is asking somebody a question, making a comment,
having a conversation where you kind of jolt them out of their, again, that cascading ripple effect of they're stuck in that own process, their old playlist, if you will.It's incredible how just we're stuck in our own ways.
And it was something you said a couple minutes ago, where it's like, you knew you didn't want to feel like that.But it's, you know, your entire life is kind of, you're, you're kind of set in cruise control.You learn how to react to things.
That's the most frustrating part, I think, in anything, whether it's leadership or life, is when you feel, OK, this is bullshit.I don't want to go through this.But I don't know any other way to do this.
I don't know any other way to live through this or make my way through it, operate in this environment. And all it may take is just, you know, somebody that can observe you and provide you some great insight, just to kind of jolt you.
Just, just that one degree of, of jolting you away from that regular path that you take that gets you in trouble.
It's incredible.All it takes is one person, ask you a question, make a comment to get you to see things maybe a different way.It's incredible.
Absolutely, absolutely.And look, we know music has the power to shift our state.That's why we work out to music.But what I'm suggesting is that music can go a lot further than just that.
We can use it to uncover and change some of our deepest seeded patterns. and be able to use music in a whole nother way.And it's free.It's available for anyone.Like in the book, I go through a seven step process.You can do this, right?
And there's a masterclass that if you want more of like how what's a worksheet and take you through it, I have that too.But I really want to provide this tool to people to understand that they don't have to stay stuck.
Yeah. It's just a reminder, we're just programmed that way, that however, however we react to our environment, that's the way that things are going to be.
And I think people try, I think people see resilience as putting up with the BS that comes at them or that they feel in life, that I can muscle through it, I can just put my head down, grip my teeth and make my way through it.
And most people don't think about just trying to take a different path.
They just see it as strength to overcome what's coming at them instead of kind of just changing the script or the playlist again, and just making that change to go down something different.
Again, even just the degree of change from their usual reaction.
Yes, yes.So again, I would ask, are you feeling a sense of, of freedom to choose? or are you feeling super stuck?And I do, look, I'm a big believer in building resilience.You know, our trials and tribulations, our suffering is a great teacher.
And it shows us something.I mean, look, my suffering for then produced this book.So I don't
In the end, I'm grateful for that opportunity, for that experience, because it allowed me to produce a breakthrough in my own life and help others produce breakthroughs in theirs.So sometimes it's through that suffering.
And I'm also not suggesting we don't want to feel our emotions when events happen.I mean, emotions are... important data sources for us.So I'm not suggesting that, oh, you just have to feel happy and grateful all the time.
That's not the human experience.But what I am suggesting is that if you're stuck and you've, like I was feeling, where I'm like, I'm done with this pattern.I need to move on.Right?
No, and I laugh only because I think many of us have gotten to that point where it's like, Oh my God, here we go again.Here's that thinking that occurs.And thinking that way, using that precious energy to feel those emotions.
Again, like you said, it's a balance between feeling your emotions and not getting stuck there.You're right.I think bad emotions, negative emotions, they're not great, but they serve a purpose.
And there's a balance between taking the lessons from them, but making sure you're not stewing in it for too long.It's just, it's incredible when you can take something away from there, but we just kind of react.
And again, the resilience piece, again, there's resilience is great, but you just got to make sure again, that you're not kind of just spinning in the mud. I think everything, like you said, life is not easy.
You have to work through it, whether it's work, business, family life, whatever it may be.But it's important to keep moving forward.And sometimes people think the resilience is just making it through.
But I think you have to be, and this is a word that you use in the book, is being intentional about what it is you want.Not just reacting to what's there, but being intentional about where you want to go.
Susan, so what do you believe is next for your writing?Are you looking in a general direction of what you might be writing about next?Is there a different area you want to move to?
I think somebody like you that's put such a unique proposition out there to use music in this fashion, I'm curious to see where you would take your writing after this.
Yeah, I definitely have another book in me, and I don't know what it is yet.But it is something around pattern recognition and disruption, because I think that that's the overarching theme in my life and in my work and my teaching.
And whether it will be music-related, it could be. it might be sort of music is one modality.I use other modalities to help people see patterns.I use the Enneagram a lot.
And if you're familiar with it, it's a, the way I use it is helping people understand their leadership style.And I use that for team development.So that's another modality that I help people see patterns and break them.
And perhaps there's a third one that I'm developing that I'll be using.Um, I'm not sure.Not sure.
When you talk about your aptitude for disruption, you mentioned you love to play, you love that creativity.Is there anything else you attribute that to?Maybe something you saw from your parents?I mean, your dad played multiple instruments.
Where do you think that originates from in you? that need for not senseless disruption, you know, targeted, focused.What do you think that comes from in you if there's any place else aside from that playfulness?
I mean, that's a great question.You know, perhaps watching my father suffer in a career that he didn't enjoy, which is why it was so important for me to find something of passion.He was a dentist and he really didn't like being a dentist.
And it was, he wanted to be a pilot, but his mother wanted to have a doctor in the family and sort of pushed him towards dental school and dentistry.
And I think he felt very trapped having, you know, a wife and three kids to support back then and just kept going at it, but was frankly miserable at it.I mean, he was a good dentist, but he didn't enjoy it at all.
And he would complain and he would come home so unhappy and grouchy.And I mean, we all suffered and I felt bad.I felt like, God, he's doing all this just to put food on the table, but he hates it.It just made me sad.
Yeah, you gotta wonder how many people from that generation Because that was their mentality.It was more survival for the family.We're now, like most of us are working, yes, to meet those obligations, those duties, those responsibilities.
But we're more cognizant, we're more aware of what we're taking out of our work.Because I think so many of us saw what it did to our parents or grandparents.It wears you down.
Yes, yes.So I think for me, it was like, I was never going to suffer in a job I didn't like. watching that because I knew the toll it would take on others to do that.And I felt like it's wasted potential.
Yeah, and even beyond work, I could see you doing that in terms of just situations.
Having that disruptive mind is kind of like you don't want to commit too much to an area where you may not feel that fulfillment, that happiness, or that it's creating value.
I think it's easier for you to maybe find those areas that need disrupting maybe than somebody else might just because of your history with your father and what you saw.
Yeah, and sort of honing this skill and developing the ability to break free of being stuck.Like that's just the bottom line.I don't want to be stuck.I don't want other people to be stuck.And you've got this life right now.
And my view is let's make the most of it because it goes so fast.
Susan, obviously we're here for your book, but if you had to pick a book that's inspired you, made an impact on you, is there at least one that fits that bill, that jumps out, has really impacted your thinking, the way you view things?
I I'm going to talk about a book I've recently read that I think is very impactful.It's called us by Terry real.And it's how to move beyond you versus me and into us consciousness.Wow, it's really about a relationship book.
But leadership is all about relationships as well.So I saw so many things, not just in your significant other relationship, but how I can take that some of the concepts he's talking about into the leadership space.
And I think he's a brilliant writer and has done some brilliant work.
I love how you keep bringing lessons of lessons of like everything outside leadership into leadership.One of my favorite quotes from your book is the bottom line is that your personal evolution is your leadership transformation.
Because I think for far too long, people are looking at leadership in terms of inside the workplace, essentially as a manager, as a supervisor, and not considering who that person was.
So I love that your book talks about your history, your experiences.What do you have to heal from?
Because I think anybody seeing and viewing this right now can probably think back to a leader that was maybe on the grouchy side or vindictive or whatever, extreme case.
and can kind of see, OK, maybe this person had something going on outside of work way before he met me, way before he worked, he or she worked in our environment.And that's what's dictating how he acted, she acted, whomever, within those walls.
I mean, there's so much.To me, the more that I study leadership, the more of a connection there is and less of a wall there is between who somebody is as a person and who they are in their leadership.
I love that you point that out.I think it's so important.
It is.There's this phrase we use is, you are who you are in everything you do.And some people say, oh, but I'm a different person at work than I am at home.And I would say that is a lie.
Are you though?Are you really?
You have a different person.And I would argue that, first of all, why are you doing that?Because that's got to be exhausting and it's not sustainable.
But secondly, there's something there to look in that why you feel you need to be a different person.And what is the opportunity there to shift that whole mindset?Because I would argue you're probably more the same person than you realize.
Absolutely.Susan, and starting to wrap up, what are you up to these days?Is there anything that you want to share that I might have missed asking about?Anything that you want to share at all?The floor is yours.
Yes, well, we're taking a lot of the work that we do and trying to make it more scalable to smaller organizations and push it down into not just working with C-suite, but pushing it down into organizations.
So we've taken our work with the Enneagram and working with teams into a program called Leadership Edge that
is for teams of 10 or 10 people or less to help them understand the superpowers and liabilities that each of them has, but understand each other in a better way and take it even further
to understand how does the team need to shift in order to be a higher-performing team.So it's a process, a six-week program that takes a team through a transformation.
And that is just right now a big passion of mine is to get this out to more teams so that we really harness the power of these individual players into a fantastic high-performing team.
Yeah, I think, I think that's a great point to make where people may see leadership coaching or specialization just as those, just as for those people that are in leadership titles, managers, supervisors, VPs, presidents, whoever it might be.
But at the same time, I think they serve themselves well if they can provide that kind of work and help for their team.So I think
It teaches them, obviously you have your own leadership, you have your own personality, your own flavor that you can bring to the team.So I think those are great tools. Yeah.
And if people, by the way, are interested in just doing take five minutes and want to explore what their superpower or liability is, they can easily do that with this quiz that we put together.
And the fun thing is, once you take the quiz and it tells you that, it will also send you information of the chapter in the book that it most relates to. so that you can read about that leader, but also get their actual playlist.
What did they create to give you inspiration for creating yours?And you can do that at susandrum.com.The quiz is right there.It's called What's Your Path to Leadership or the Enlightened Leader Quiz.
And it'll link it back to which chapter of the book best represents you potentially.
Yeah, yeah.You see yourself in certain aspects of certain chapters as you're reading the book.So if anybody does reach out and take that quiz, let me know what you came up with.I'm curious to compare notes.
And again, we covered Susan's own book, The Leader's Playlist, Unleash the Power of Music and Neuroscience to Transform Your Leadership and Your Life. Susan, thank you so much for coming out to the show to discuss this book.
Again, I was excited when your team reached out to cover it.Again, I had just read it last year.So thank you for the book.
I think it provides a great take on leadership, how you can view it, especially, like you said, with free tools, music that's all around you that you listen to.So I appreciate everything you've done.
Yes, well, thank you.And I'm so glad you have this podcast to further discuss people's heart and soul that they put into their books.So thank you for creating this platform.
No, it's fun to learn about all of my guests.It's been fun to learn about your story and more about the book and how you came up with it.
If there's anything that I might have missed, anything that I should have asked Susan, we're limited on time, but I can drag people down tangents and rabbit holes.
If there is anything that you want to hear that I might not have asked, reach out, let me know.I'll reach out to Susan, see what kind of insights, knowledge, guidance I can get back.But in the meantime, thank you for watching.Thank you for listening.
And I'll talk to you soon.Take care.Bye.
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