I absolutely love like the way that that was able to get consultants on board with personal branding and kind of using that chat GPT or also that ghostwriter function to write content or rewrite because a lot of the time recruiters are scared of posting because you know they don't think they're going to write something interesting or it's going to take them an hour because they want to check everything.
Stuff like that I think is absolutely amazing.There were no sort of coaching or mentoring programs, there was very little support, very little resources.
So when my journey had kind of come to an end at Camino, I was thinking about, you know, what would it make sense for me to do next?
And just looking at everything that I've seen over the past eight years, I was like, it was a no-brainer that this was what I was going to set up.So I've got sort of two sides of the business.
So one is Recruitment Ops Mentoring, which is kind of, as it says on the tin, a training and mentoring program focused specifically for people that are in operations for recruitment.
Welcome to the Staffing Ring, the podcast where the gloves come off and we go deep into the recruitment industry's best practices and tactics.We aim to bring you actionable insights for how staffing and recruiting agencies are winning today.
This production is brought to you by Ringover, the leading staffing communication platform connected to your ATS and CRM, empowering conversations for your recruiters.
Welcome to another episode of the Staffing Ring.I'm your host, Jason Lawson.I'm super excited for the episode today.We're joined by Natasha South, a Rec Ops specialist and a new business owner.
So we're gonna get deep into operations, staffing, recruiting.So I'm really looking forward to this episode.Natasha is the founder of the Recruitment Ops Mentoring and co-founder of Rec Ops Strategy.Welcome, Natasha.
Thank you so much for having me.
Great to be here with you.And yeah, so you started new businesses this year.Before we jump into the ring, we'd love to hear a bit more about your businesses and who you serve and what you do.
Yeah, 100%.So I left my position at a company called Camino Partners last year.From that position, we had been in a really lucky situation whereby I had kind of had access to every other person in the market that did the same job as me.
And what I initially did was set up a networking group, you know, just set up a WhatsApp group, set up a bit of a support unit for other people that were in the same jobs as me.
Because to be honest, it can be very, very lonely, particularly when you're in those standalone positions.
And what I kind of realized on that sort of five to six years of running that networking group was that there was no specific training for people that were working in operations within the recruitment sector.
There were no sort of coaching or mentoring programs, there was very little support, very little resources. So when my journey had kind of come to an end at Camino, I was thinking about, you know, what would it make sense for me to do next?
And just looking at everything that I've seen over the past eight years, I was like, it was a no brainer that this was what I was going to set up.So I've got sort of two sides of the business.
So one is Recruitment Ops Mentoring, which is kind of, as it says on the tin, a training and mentoring program focused specifically for people that are in operations for recruitment.
I do a mixture of sort of group-based workshops, so bringing people together to work on a particular topic, or a one-to-one program where I am actually going into the businesses and offering operational advisory and consultancy and sort of helping people that might be in those positions that, you know, have maybe not gone through it before and actually they just need to understand what's the best way to do this.
And then the other side of it, which is the one that I co-founded with my business partner, Ashari, is RecUp Strategy.And that's, I guess, bringing the tech side into that business, whereby it's a platform that's kind of self-service.
So people that work in recruitment operations can join the platform.There's loads of free resources on there.So, you know, documents, policies, little things that are just really useful for us to have in that position.
they can sort of come on there and get those resources, really.
Awesome.Wow.Sounds highly topical for our chat today.And yeah, congratulations on studying those.And for the audience, I'll drop the links in the show notes.And also, please do go follow Natasha on LinkedIn.
She's very active, lots of great insights, thought provoking topics.So yeah, whether you're Operations and staffing recruiting, absolutely.
I'd also recommend for leaders because you're just going to get that understanding about the technology that's really going to drive your agency.For recruiters themselves, actually knowing and understanding the tools and the toolkit.
Right, so we are going to jump into the ring, Natasha.First question, round one.
So in the world of staffing and recruiting that you're very much living and working in, what are you seeing as some of the big market forces and the developments that agency leaders really need to think about and be aware of?
Yeah, so I think probably the number one topic for everyone at the moment is tech, right?
I was doing a little bit of market research myself quite recently, and it was something like 8,000 new rec tech businesses have been registered since 2020, sort of COVID time.
So it's a little bit overwhelming by the amount of rec tech that is coming out on a monthly basis.And people like to bounce around the kind of the AI or the automation words and how it's going to transform the recruitment sector.
Or my favorite topic is how it's going to get rid of recruiters, which short answer is no, it won't.But for me, I think
Recruitment business owners can kind of have a little bit of a fear about missing out or, you know, falling behind their competitors.
But for me, from an operational perspective, the number one thing that you need to do is make sure that you've already got your ducks in a row before you even start thinking.
about implementing some things like automation or getting AI involved in the business.
Because if you are not optimizing what's there, or you're not doing really, really basic things well, to be honest, implementation of anything like that is potentially going to mess your business up.But also, it's just super expensive.
And you're not necessarily going to see the ROI on it. So I think that's probably one of the big things where I think everyone is thinking at the moment, you know, what's the new bit of tech that's going to revolutionize your business?
But if you don't do it right, it's just a big impact on what you guys are doing.
Yes.Yeah.And yeah, I absolutely agree.And I've seen the good and the bad in terms of how agencies really think about this. In your experience, getting the ducks in a row, if they've got operations leader in the business, where do they start?
I think it's about building a tech-driven culture.
And when I talk about getting a duck's in a row and just getting the basics right, it's looking at things like, can you actually get your staff to put the stuff in the CRM that is needed to be put in?
If you're struggling with that, don't think about putting anything else in, because that is the most basic thing that you can do in terms of your skill coding or making sure that you track the process properly through your CRM or the notes are the right quality.
So for me, anytime anyone is thinking about, oh, either, you know, do we want to move CRMs?Do we want to put this new piece of software in?It's like, actually, until you can drive that behavior, you will not benefit from anything else.
Because all you're gonna have is the same problems, again, the same problems that ultimately come from bad or bad habits, you know, and bad data health and bad
I don't want to say bad behavior, but bad processes in terms of how you're actually tracking your data.
Whereas if you can get people to understand why it's so important, they'll actually jump at the opportunity to have a piece of tech come in and really be able to utilize and optimize the process that they're working on.
Yes, yeah.And it is often, you know, actually much easier and simpler to get the process right when you're doing it in a more manual basis because you can tweak it, you can get people to adjust themselves and their process.
As soon as you start automating and adding AI, AI is a language learning model, it's going to learn from
So if you don't have the good ducks in the row, it's just going to feed off poor information and then you're going to have outputs which are not going to be valuable or useful.
this is it and then what that does is that creates a poor attitude towards change within your business because if you know your recruiters are seeing all of this this work that goes in or you know they're being expected to make these massive changes and go through this training and taking them away from the tools
and then it doesn't work, the next time you try to do something, the attitude is just a bit like, God, what have we got to do now?You know, this is going to be a waste of our time.Nothing that we've ever put in place has worked.
So if you can change that attitude to start with, you'll find that all of your implementations after that will just go a lot smoother.
So I think you're highlighting there some kind of potholes in the road, which in the UK, we have a few of those.
What kind of dynamics or developments do you think, or what's one, do you think a lot of agencies are underestimating in terms of its impact in the next three, six, 12 months?
It's been a really interesting one, actually, because, again, from my position in the market, my position at Camino, I noticed, particularly at the start of this year, lots of redundancies in the non-sales functions, right?
And we had market instability, you know, there was lots of things going on, the general election being called, you know, lots of people not hiring.And I think what that kind of meant is that
As always happens, as it did with COVID, the first thing that you look at when your business isn't, you know, perhaps hitting its revenue goals is what do you consider to be expendable, right?
So what's not necessarily visibly generating revenue for your business?
And I think what's kind of happened now is lots of businesses are almost behind with catching up now that we're stabilizing because they've lost people that actually probably would be able to put a lot of these things in place straight away.
They're perhaps dealing with what seems like a more cost-effective but less skilled set of staff, which actually just means that in the long run, those strategies to recover with the market, which is going to take longer.
And, you know, sometimes you've got junior people that are doing roles of, you know, very, very senior director levels that are not being compensated, that don't have the skillset to do it.
And then that, that in itself creates a negative culture around, you know, workloads within the within your office.So I think
Definitely, I understand the kind of thought process behind cutting costs when necessary, but it's also about making sure that you're in the best position possible.
We know the market is going to recover, and have you made sure that if the market is back beaming again in the next couple of three, six months, do you have the infrastructure in place to actually utilize that and capitalize on that recovery market?
Yeah, that certainly sparked an idea of, you know, thinking about that for me and it's almost, yes, feels pragmatic at times.It's almost like survival, right?So survival, survive, transform to thrive.So how
How are the agency leaders thinking about that in a time when, as you say, maybe they have let go some of that actually valuable resource that can help them move from that transition?
And yeah, I think it certainly highlights a really potential risk or impact that if they don't get it right in this next phase, they could be kind of left behind.
100% yeah.And I think but also the positive has been that it's opened up massive opportunities for people in my position.
So people that are going into those more consulting and contracting roles, where actually, you know, you can now potentially hire someone who's an expert in that specific part. that you need to be implementing.
But I think for me, a lot of the work I do is around that change management piece.
And if you don't have someone that is experienced in that, it can be hugely detrimental when you're trying to go through that recovery phase or just trying to grow as a business again.
Yes, yeah.And could you, Natasha, share an example of where you've perhaps gone into an agency and helped them get the right plan, get the right kind of mindset and how they've benefited from that engagement.
Yeah, definitely.So I think for me, the clients that I tend to work with are on two sides of the scale.So either they're They're small, but they are have kind of already had that click to be like, we need to get this right the first time.
So I'm in an amazing position where actually I can go in and they don't have it.They've never had anyone in this role before.And actually what they're looking for is to somewhat for someone to set out that operational strategy. from day dot.
So there's a couple of clients that I'm working with at the moment where I'm actually helping them hire that first non-sales hire into the business so that we can talk about actually we need to hire someone who it's not necessarily about today, whereby you're a smaller business, you know, it's going to be fairly admin focused.
It's, I'm thinking about the person I need to be in three years when, you know, you're hopefully an international multi-brand company.
And these are the things that we need to train over the next three years so that you can achieve that as a business.So for me, it's helping business leaders align their operational strategy to their overall business vision.
and kind of go, right, this is what you're looking to achieve.
Now, let's take a step back, break that down into a step-by-step plan, and getting them to have the mindset of focusing on that plan and not kind of just getting taken off with every idea or, you know, tech is a great one, every tech product.
Yeah, yeah.So like every time you get a BD call from someone telling you they've got the next piece of rec tech that's going to transform the way they recruit, well, is that actually a problem for your business?
Like, have we actually looked at the data and identified that as being a problem?Or actually, do we just need to stay the course?
And building that, that company culture, that attitude of that we grow to succeed, and growth involves developing, developing involves change.
And that we shouldn't see these things as, you know, extra workload, we should actually see it as this is developing you guys as an individual, developing the business as a whole, and thinking about what all those opportunities are going to present to
hopefully these super ambitious recruiters that are selling your business.And just constantly bringing it back to the sort of the vision of what they're trying to achieve.
Yeah, fascinating.Thinking about that kind of multi-year alignment with the business strategy, that technical operation strategy, which over the next two or three years will be a profound transformation for pretty much every agency.
Right, we're going to dive into round two.So we're now talking actually very much what what we've just been alluding to a lot, and that is the strategies and tactics to win.So we're recording this mid-2024.
Obviously, there's still a lot of things to play out the rest of the year.A lot of great ambition and signals of growth and different sectors now actually starting to show.Cliched, but yes, green shoots.
I think a lot of AI and technology will help, but in some ways will also kind of level the playing field.So certainly what I think a lot of agencies need to do is how do they kind of stand out?
So what are you thinking about in terms of perhaps slightly unconventional ways to deploy technology or integrate with people and process to really kind of be in that top quartile of performers?
Yeah, so I think there's a couple of things on this.So first of all, like I say, go back to basics, right before you think about implementing anything new?Have you audited your current systems?
Have you worked out anything that you're going to implement?Is that even the problem in the business in the first place?
Because you might think that this new piece of tool is going to make everyone so efficient and, you know, it's going to give them so much more time.But actually, was that the problem in the first place?And it's really important to identify
whether it's your recruitment process or your business operations, you've actually got blockers because then rather than just picking up, like you say, every shiny tool that comes across your door, you can actually go out and handpick things and curate a tech stack that fits the issues that are happening within your business.
And I think the next one, and this is a little bit controversial in that a lot of the time when when we've kind of gone through this tough period economically, and we go into this survival mode,
What can sometimes happen is people don't want to make tough decisions because they've already been through this really, you know, up and down rollercoaster of a ride.
You know, not just over, you know, the last year, but think about the last five years for most of our businesses with COVID.
It can be really hard to make tough decisions because you just kind of get to the point where it's like, we've been through so much and I work with a lot of businesses that have perhaps lost a lot of headcount.
And I know that some, some people kind of associate that with, you know, a metric that they really care about.
And what sometimes happens is they don't want to make tough decisions about people that are in that business at the moment, because they're just fearful of what it's going to look like if they lose any more staff or, you know, the kind of environment that it creates.
However, One of the most powerful things that I think that you can do is take a reset.And sometimes that comes with the culture and the staff as well.
And actually looking at the people in your business and thinking about if we are about to go into a recovery mode and we are going to want to capitalize on, you know, hopefully those green shoots that are coming through.
Do you have the right people in your business right now?Are the people that are sat in those seats and sat in those positions, are they the people that are going to help you do that?Or have you perhaps been hanging on to people because
They've offered some positivity during some tough times or they've just been in the business for a long time and they're part of your culture.
Sometimes you just need to be willing to make the tough decisions and it will actually put your business in a position to flourish further down the line.
Yeah, I think there's tough decisions in down economies and up economies, right?You've got to be competitive right throughout.And yeah, I love that.And we certainly like the spicy punches at the staffing ring.So really thinking about actually
what are some maybe hard truths, right, in terms of what's gonna make an effective business.
And I think what's your sort of, I keep talking about this quite a lot, particularly within operations, is it's like, what's your level of standards?And you know, what standards do you hold yourself to?
Because sometimes I go into clients and I talk about things like performance management, which can be seen as a bit of a negative word. And I'm like, if you don't have performance management, how low must your standards be?
If you don't have something in place that is like, this is the minimum expectations of what we expect for people within our business, and actually holding yourself accountable to that, holding your people accountable for that, you're not going to grow a successful business at the end.
And you know, If you're worried, think about those standards for yourself and are you actually accountable to them?
Yeah, I think that also goes back to a point you raised before in terms of AI, certainly in the foreseeable future, is not going to take away the role of the recruiter.But, and we hear this a lot, a recruiter that really
you know, enables themselves with AI, you know, they work, you know, person and machine.And so I think, you know, certainly there'll be people in your agency that will that will really dive into that and embrace it.
And there'll be others who will be really skeptical and think the machines are coming to take over.How do you see agency leaders having to coach and train their teams?
And as you say, sometimes maybe identify a person who's just not embracing and they're not fit for the new business.
So I think it's, it comes back to kind of that culture around technology for a start.And it also comes down to the way, the way that you drive your recruitment process.
And I think there is a big difference between transactional recruiters and recruiters that are in that consultative space.
And the thing is, I think that recruiters that are scared of tech coming in, know that they could be replaced by technology, because they are not doing the things that make them consultative, they are not doing the things that actually add value to their clients.
And I talked, I talked to someone else about this around like my thought process around AI and recruiters.And it's like, there is When we look at this from the staffing sector, we look at this as very, very professional services based, right.
But there are lots of recruiting and hiring opportunities that happen that don't need recruiters, right, that don't need to have that extra step of consultative, they don't need to be adding value, they don't need that advisory element.
And actually, I've seen some really cool products using AI whereby actually it can conduct your first stage interview for you.And there will be plenty of hiring circumstances where that's actually a super useful tool.
Now, if you are worried that that's going to take your job, you are not adding value as a recruiter, because actually, where the recruiters are adding value,
is, are they able to spot that diamond in the rough who actually needs a bit of career coaching and has that skill set, but doesn't know how to write a CV or has never been through an interview process before?
So they don't know how to answer all those classic questions.And having that kind of coaching element
or they don't have the ability from like a client perspective, to actually go in there and advise and consult with the client and tell them, this is what your competitors are doing.
If you approach this role in this way, you're not going to be able to compete because this is what the market standards are.AI is not going to negotiate for you.You know, there are so many places where AI can sit in this process.
But there are so many more valuable things that recruiters should be doing.So I think if you're thinking, Oh, God, this is gonna come and take our job, you actually need to take a look at your process and the value that you're adding.
Because if it can, then you probably shouldn't be doing that role in the first place.
There we go.Indeed.Yeah.That's a bunch.That's a bunch.And I think certainly a lot of agencies, of course, they're very aware of competition and it's a competitive market.
And also, as you talk through that, my thought process goes to actually in-house talent acquisition teams who are now done to embrace a lot of the similar technologies and similar ways of working.
That really is a big risk and competitive element to an agency today.So I think certainly that value add, that person-to-person, that again is where they can stand out to the competition, but also to the in-house recruitment teams.
All right, so here we go.Round three, take a breath.We've already talked a lot about product innovations.But yeah, I think certainly speaking and listening to a lot of recruitment agency owners and leaders, it's a busy job.
There's a lot of people, there's a lot of client work, candidate work. We're all very aware that it's a busy, busy role in a tough market.
So I think for a lot of agency leaders, but also the operation leaders, having those key pillars, those words of wisdom, and I think you're so well-placed, Natasha, seeing multiple clients, seeing, I'm sure, the good, the great, and the not so good.
I guess, what can you share just in terms of, again, that mindset and method and approach?
Yeah, 100%.I've talked about that CRM data a lot, but actually, it's also around digging into your process data.One of the first workshops that I ever put together was called Digging into Data, and it was actually how, as an operational person,
you really understand the numbers that are happening in your business.Because, you know, I'm lucky I came from a sales background, so I understood exactly, you know, what my KPIs were showing.
I understood how that flowed into the quality of work that I was doing. But some people don't come from that background.So it's about looking at those figures and uncovering where the blockers actually are.
Because sometimes when we look at a particular figure, we assume that it's telling us something.
But if we then go and sort of dig a little bit deeper into that and understand, you know, just because your CV to interview ratio is poor, people usually think, oh, it's because we're not sending good enough candidates.
But actually, if we dig in, we can go, actually, it's got nothing to do with candidates.It's that you haven't qualified your client properly.
You haven't done a good enough client meeting to get a good enough brief that has not been communicated properly to the people that are resourcing for it.
So again, it's thinking about when you identify where those actual blockers are, you can then start building something that's going to fix your problems, not just going and pulling on tech from all different places and putting things on, you know, willy-nilly.
You can actually go out and go, right, this is what our problem is.We're going to implement a solution here.That is where we're going to start.
And then I think when we're thinking about things like automation, there is so much being talked about about this at the moment.This is one of those kind of scary places where if that background stuff isn't done right,
there is an opportunity for you to go through some pretty negative things and that you can essentially ruin your reputation if something goes out that shouldn't be going out.
If you don't have people that have the right codes on, if you don't have notes being added to the system at the time that they are being added, you can build these big, beautiful automations.
But actually, if it's sending content out to people that are completely irrelevant, if it's sending things out to people that says, you know, you've not spoken to them for years, but actually they had a conversation with one of your recruiters last week, it creates a really negative perception of your brand, which is why if you're thinking about automation,
Audit and take a look at that system before you do anything.And also check how those things fit together.I had a client that I'm working with at the moment where it's actually fine, but they turned something on in their system.
not realizing that that had been a sort of, you know, a dam to something else.As soon as they turned it on, it sent messages out to people that had applied to jobs three years ago, being like, thank you for applying.And then
because actually we hadn't quite understood where that was going to affect in other places.So just make sure that you have things like that taken into account and that you're kind of ready to go through those processes.
And if you're not sure, speak to experts.There are really, really good people out there in this particular rec tech space where they're consultants, where they can look at how this is set up.
that can kind of say, okay, by the way, if you turn this on, this is going to affect this.So make sure that you've got that part of your process.And then finally, make sure that it's going to scale with whatever you're looking to do, right?
So if you're going to expand into new areas, if you're going to expand into new jurisdictions, make sure that whatever bits of tech you pick are going to support that.Because we had problems where we had been a perm agency
And then we moved to contracting.There were just things that just weren't quite right for the interim and the contract team that then affected their ability to do their work.
If we had thought about it a couple of years ago and gone, actually, this is on the roadmap for us, I might have made different decisions.
I might have gone, actually, whilst this is a good piece of tech for us now, is it going to support that team when it comes in? Right you you might make different decisions.
Yes.Yeah Yeah, the minefield of Automation certainly.
Yeah, I'm sure most most the audience have have received an email that says, you know, hi first name Automation is pulling which data and and yeah a simple thing like that if that field is empty and you know, exclude it or change the introduction.
And that's the simple things too, I think.Automation is great as long as you're the recipient, the client or candidate is not aware that it's an automated message, right?They want to feel like it's personal and customized for them.Exactly.
And you spoke earlier before about the rise of recruitment technology, staffing solutions.There's just more and more coming on the market, which is brilliant, right? to help really elevate and empower agencies to do even better work.
I think everybody is embracing at least the idea that this technology can help them.Amongst all of the new stuff, what excites you in terms of new categories of recruitment technology or specific solutions?
So I think for me, I always, because from my position from operation and marketing and stuff like that, Pager was a bit of tech that I absolutely loved.
Like the way that that was able to get consultants on board with personal branding and kind of using that chat GPT or their ghostwriter function to write content or rewrite, because a lot of the time recruiters are scared of posting because
They don't think they're going to write something interesting, or it's going to take them an hour because they want to check everything.Stuff like that, I think, is absolutely amazing.I am also a big fan of eLate in particular.
I wouldn't have been able to build my business off this.This is something that allows you to automate your LinkedIn outreach.And it's one of those things where you spend the right amount of time curating those lists.
So really looking at who am I targeting and why am I targeting, and then can build like a really, really amazing automation that just kind of goes through of, you know, reaching out to them, like doing your LinkedIn requests, sending messages, sending bits of content out.
And I've got an integration as well with my CRM, where it's also doing the data enrichment as well.
And for me, I'm like, this is game changing, like particularly if you are a newer business, where perhaps you don't have a database of 70,000, you know, contacts and candidates, getting this text set up straight away has definitely been absolutely game changing for me.
And then the stuff I think I'm excited about is anything that is like particularly from like phone-based solutions, which I know is a good little sell-in for what you guys do, but the note-taking and the CRM integrations.
I come at this from a real operational perspective where I spent a lot of my career looking at things like managing our risk and looking at legal scenarios, so where we're having to take clients or we're having to go down that route of legal proceedings.
The amount of time that I have spent trawling through phone recordings and like really having to, you know, get the details of what's been said, getting that audit trial.
And because someone's had a conversation that they've not written a note on and therefore I don't know that it's happened.And that was when a key piece of information or the notes have been logged on a different day.
searching for a phone call in the wrong week.It's things like that.
So for me, when I have started to see bits of tech like that coming through where it's like your calls are logged on the profiles of the people, it's automatically identifying who it is that's calling and
or it's note-taking for you, that's a game-changer.There are some really, really good benefits to your business for getting tech like that implemented.
Yeah, and I think the phone integration with the CRMs and ATS is a game changer.
And I think also, as you start to layer on AI, as Ringover has done with their Empower product, is taking all that unstructured data, all those calls, all those conversations and messages, and putting it into, again, into a structured manner that can be
You can get a transcript, you can get the sentiment of the call, or as you say, you can go back and search certain words over the last several months and you can pick up a conversation just from almost like a Google search.
I think those examples are fascinating.I think Pager certainly is one that stood out to me too in terms of the technology, the team, and just the way they've gone about growing their business.
Awesome.All right, here we go.Round four, ready for a speedball session, some quickfire Q&A.Let's do it.Let's go.Let's go.So, yeah, we talk about jumping in the staffing ring.Walk on music, you know, your own song.What's your choice there?
But you know what, this is funny because my friends always basically talk me up about what I am and how proud they are of me for what I've done going out and paving.So it's going to have to be Boss Bitch by Doja Cat.
All right.All right. You own it.That's it.
I do own it.And you know, I've got the best cheerleading squad in the world of people that are just constantly telling me that, you know, I'm, I'm absolutely smashing it and I'll make them all proud.
So I'm like, yeah, that's, that's what I'm going for.
Awesome.That's, that's the, yeah.Awesome.That's brilliant.Best movie, Fight Club or Rocky?
Yeah, it is a brilliant movie, isn't it?
Very, very good.Rocky's a bit too old school for me, whereas I'm like, I like the twists with Fire Club.And it's a great book.I read it many, many years ago.So yeah, definitely.
This is controversial because I am a redhead, so I would usually go red.But my favorite color is blue, so I'm going to have to pick the blue corner.
There you go.There you go.All right. Very good.Beach or snow?
Always beach.Although, having said this, I actually hate the beach.If anything, the answer is pool.Poolside, next to some water, but without the sun.But I'd take hot over cold any day.
Yeah, yeah.Especially as we go through a pretty unreliable UK summer here.
Coffee, 100%.Drink far too much coffee in the daytime.
Yeah, guilty as charged as well on that count.Yeah.Salsa or guacamole?
Love this question.I actually went traveling around Mexico last year and one of the commitments that I made was every single bar, restaurant, wherever we went, we had to try the guacamole.
So I can't, it's probably an embarrassing amount of guacamole that I ate in like three, four weeks, but 100% all about the guac.
Wow, wow.And any kind of versions of guacamole that really stood out to you on your travels there?
We had a couple of places where it was like absolutely our favorite.A guacamole with a spicy margarita is the best combination of things that you can possibly have.And the great thing is they just serve it as a standard in like every bar you go into.
So you never have to go too far to get some good, some really good guacamole.
Yeah, yeah. Texting or calling?
Now, this is quite interesting because I know we all have the ongoing debate and like particularly what's happening with our newer generations.I am a texter, unless it's in a work, like... position where I'm like, phone, get on the phone.
If you are doing business, you have to be speaking to people on the phone.But what I refuse to accept is voice notes.I hate voice notes more than anything in the world.So just text me or phone me.Don't send me a voice note.
Yeah, voice notes.I've never sent a voice note and, yeah, receiving them, it's like, well, I'm not, I'm on the tube, so I'm not going to play this.And yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think after COVID, we are all on the IRL.But I love going and meeting people face-to-face.I love being on client side.
It's one of my favorite things about going into contracting is that I can actually be like, yes, I'm going to come and spend half a day in your office and meet everyone, put a face to the name.So 100%, I think it's essential.
Yeah.And I think it still stands out.A lot of people will have stayed somewhat well yeah I think we're all mostly hybrid but a lot of people are well the journey I'll just take a zoom call and yeah so it certainly makes a big difference.
In terms of technology then best of breed or all-in-one?
I think this was quite a hard one to answer, to be honest, because I think, like I say, it ultimately depends on what you've identified with your business.
So I've kind of gone all in one for this, but ultimately, look at your data first, work out what you need, and then you can go forward and make decisions about what you need.
Yeah, yeah.And I think, you know, even the best one-on-ones still have integrations and add-ons that you can kind of populate as well.
Yeah, yeah.Rustic or modern?
Modern always.Always a modern aesthetic for me and I love tech, so moving forward.
Right, so I can probably guess the next one then.E-books or physical?You're going to be e-books, aren't you?
Controversially, actually. My book collection is my proudest achievement.Like I am absolutely obsessed with books and I dread to think how many are sat on my shelf.
But I'm also like my book collection is the most truest reflection of me as a human being that I will ever get.So I like having a proper bookshelf with all of my books organized and I like feeling them and smelling them and All of those weird things.
If you bought me, I actually, someone bought me a Kindle years and years and years ago.I don't even remember who it was and I don't know where it is.If I'm honest, literally no idea.
Yeah, yeah.No, you can't, yeah.I think getting a good book in your hands that you can just flick the pages and yeah.Yeah.All right, so talking books then, why don't we jump into some book recommendations.One or more if you're up for that.
So I am a massive nerd at heart, so I love science, I love physics, I love space, I love geography.So this year I read The Future of Geography, which if you've not read, it is just absolutely fascinating.
So it's essentially looking at how we think that sort of the geopolitical world is going to change as we actually start exploring space more.So at what point do we kind of make this transition from countries taking ownership of territories?
Because when we're talking about the moon, who has the right to make claim to the moon? And as we start to go further out and we develop the abilities to start mining resources from elsewhere, what should the approach be?
Should we still be taking a country-led approach?Or actually, is there just going to be some point at which we just go, we're all human beings? we should all be benefiting from the resources that are coming in from elsewhere.
So it's a fascinating look at this space race today, what they think the future is, and quite a positive, you know, one of those things where you take a step back and just, you know, at the end of the day, we're all human beings, and we are all on this tiny planet.
And, you know, one day, we're going to be thinking about how the human race is affecting space as opposed to the politics that are happening now.
Yeah, yeah.And I think it's very healthy to have different perspectives, right?Whether you're a business owner like yourself, Natasha, or an agency owner or leader, it's so easy to just get so focused on the day-to-day and not think about
you know, what are the macro things happening or likely to happen.So, yeah, fascinating.What's, yeah, I guess through your, maybe through your last kind of many months of starting a business or previous to that.
Is there a piece of advice or kind of something somebody said to you that's really stuck in terms of how you run your business and work with clients?
So this is, again, a really interesting question because it's not necessarily a piece of advice, but it's something that me and my best friend say to each other all the time.
And it comes from being a woman in business and, you know, throughout my career working in fairly male-dominated industries.
also working within the recruitment sector and working, you know, understanding how like diversity and inclusion and stuff like that works is when you understand things like the gender pay gap, or the reasons why women tend to be in the positions that they are in.
Whether it's looking at bias over advert writing or the fact that when a woman looks at a job, if she does not fulfill 90% of the criteria, she won't apply for it.Whereas a man would look at it and see 40 or 50% of the criteria and go for it.
So me and my best friend Molly always say the same thing to each other. And it's, what would a man do in this situation?So when I was going through this process of being like, setting up my own business, or do I go in house?
Or do I do all of these things?Or, you know, do I just go for it?Yeah, always take it back to get out of your imposter syndrome.Yeah, think about the fact that the reason that men tend to be in those positions is because they just So just do it.
Don't overthink it.Don't be too analytical.Don't be too risk-averse.And if you're questioning whether or not you should do something, think about what a man would do in that situation and go for it.
Yeah, no, it's brilliant.I think it's often a little psychological trick that can just help you overcome a lot of
Yeah, we all have self-imposed limitations of some nature, and just having that little thing that you can just go, right, I'm just going to do it.I'm going to own it.
OK, we are cooling down now, wrapping up.A couple of questions.Awesome.Ready to give the audience something to take away.I think you.
A lot of what you've talked through, and I get a real sense that you're passionate about the industry and what you've just spoken about there in terms of the gender and the pay divide.This is real, right, for people's earnings and incomes.
So what's some of the biggest things that excite you about the next phase of the staffing and recruiting industry?
Yeah, I think, for me, like, I've been in the recruitment sector for like 14 years.And even just in that period of time, there are such positive cultural shifts happening.And I think we
I always used to say this where it's like you used to pretend that you were there to help people but actually ultimately you had a sales KPI based job and it didn't matter whether you were helping people or not, it just mattered whether you hit your core targets.
And I think when we talk about like the type of business that transactional versus value add, that has led to this massive shift in culture where business owners are finally realizing it's not just about, you know, hammering the phones, it's actually about the quality of work that you're doing.
And we're actually focusing on how we can help not just the candidates that we're working with, but how we can help the businesses that we're working with.
And also how we can help the sector as a whole, like we're seeing so many more businesses, recruitment businesses, looking at things like B Corp, or like social awareness, or just general things where they are actually
making positive social change, like the amount of nonprofit organizations that are coming up through recruitment agencies, whether it's women in tech, or women in finance, or, or the recruitment businesses that are supporting homeless people getting into work, like we are actually in a position
where we are doing so much good for society.And it feels like there's been a real shift in that, where it's not just something that we're saying, but it's something that we're actually doing.
And I think lots of businesses are gonna experience huge amounts of success, because this is the thing that society cares about now, and we're actually doing it.
Yeah, yeah.It is incredible to think about an industry which, yeah, it's a large industry, but a lot of players in this industry are small.Yet it's an industry that touches nearly everybody on the planet.
You're either hiring or wanting to be employed.It is incredible.And as you say, the transformation of culture and mindset and values is incredible. Natasha, I want to be respectful of your time.We are coming up against our allotted time.
So where can people find you and connect with you?
Yeah, 100%.So obviously, I'm on LinkedIn, Natasha South, and then either of the websites, so either recruitmentopsmentoring.co.uk or recops-strategy.io.
So yeah, feel free, find me, reach out if anyone has any questions or wants to discuss anything further.
Awesome, awesome.We'll drop all those links in the show notes as well so you can find how to reach out.But yeah, Natasha South on LinkedIn, I'm sure you'll be able to find lots of great content on there.
Natasha, thank you so much for being a guest on The Staffing Ring.We could have probably spoken for another half an hour just about your experience and insights.We really appreciate that.And I'm sure the audience has got tons of value.
Thank you so much for having me.
All right, everyone, that's a wrap.Thank you for listening to The Staffing Ring, and look forward to seeing you on the next episode.
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