Hello and welcome to the Essential Training Podcast with me, Brian Kingston and my dad, Ian Kingston.
At Essential Training, we work with individuals and teams to help them reach more of their potential so that they and their organisation reap the benefits.
In this podcast, we chat with some amazing people who have extraordinary stories and I hope you enjoy. This episode is brought to you by Fodsail Saunas.
Fodsail is the Irish for long life, and they were Ireland's first commercial sauna service set up in 2019.Their mission is to communicate, educate, and inspire people on the benefits of sauna and cold bathing.
And their vision is to enhance the well-being of the people of Ireland and further afield, and to give people more healthy lifestyle choices.They have locations in Greystones, Galway, and Clontarf Rugby Club in Ireland.
And I am a regular user of the sauna.I go down once or twice a week.They're only down the road from us.
And they have set up an amazing community there, where you've got the sauna, you've got Rise of the Cove coffee, right in the midst of Tiglin, which is Ireland's oldest addiction treatment center clinic.
So you've got a real mix of people and mindsets and
I go down there, I spend 15 minutes in the sauna, step outside, cool down, go back for another 15 minutes and then I usually pop down to the sea, spend a couple of minutes in the sea depending on how brave I feel that day.
And afterwards I always feel rejuvenated, energized and sometimes I'll pop in for a coffee at Rise of the Cove and I just love bumping into people down there and there's an amazing community.
And Steve says this, and I felt it as well, it's kind of like the vibe of a pub without the alcohol.You go down with friends, you can go down alone, you can bump into people, you can stay on your own, and it's just this amazing.
vibe and amazing community people.So we're so happy to be sponsored by Fodsale and long may it last and we're excited to see where this partnership goes.
So thanks Steve and your team for Fodsale Saunas for sponsoring the podcast and go check them out on their Instagram or on their website. This week I spoke to Mitch Hermanson who's based in Vancouver, Canada.
One of my really good friends and is a director in the Movember Foundation, which for anybody who doesn't know is a charity that grows mustaches in aid of men's health.
They primarily support men's prostate cancer research and prevention, testicular cancer research and prevention, and they promote awareness and tools for men's mental health.
And I really enjoyed this conversation with Mitch because it's a conversation and a topic that I'm really passionate about, both as a coach, but just as a human being as well and as a man.
I'm passionate about the wellbeing of all people, genders, races.Um, but I suppose being a man and having experienced challenges with my mental health in my life and working with a lot of clients who have experienced challenges as well.
And some of the facts and figures that we discuss, like the really high numbers of men, suicide and self-harm rates.This is something that's very close to my heart and something that I think speaking about can prevent a lot of harm for men.
Show you a bit of a trigger warning there is topics of suicide and.There's many charities out there if you're in ireland or you're in canada to speak to if you're having any of those thoughts.
And there's also lots of, let's say, uplifting and tools, topics in this conversation that I think a lot of people will get a lot from as well.
So it's not only speaking about the challenging facts and figures around men's mental health and physical health, but also the tools that we can all use to support ourselves and support the men in our lives.
And I think this is really relevant for our conversation because We work with a lot of organizations that have a lot of men in them.
So anybody who's listening to this, I think you'll get a lot out of it because I can almost guarantee there's a man in your life that could do with extra support.
So without further ado, here's our conversation with Mitch Hermanson, director of development at Movember Canada and a really good friend of mine.So thanks Mitch for coming on and I hope you enjoy.Mitch, great to have you here.Brian. Good to be here.
It's great.I actually wore my Movember jumper kind of by accident today.Oh, I did not wear this back.So this is very deliberate.So happy accident and. If we ever end up sharing this video for anybody watching, I have a mustache.
Even if you're watching, you may not be able to tell, but it's there.
If you zoom in, you can see it.You can see it.
It's there.It's it's a good it's coming in nice.It's a good crop this year.
Yeah.Yours is very visible.After six days of growth, I need another usually around You know, the end of the second week, I'm pretty proud of my mustache.So this is the hard time.This is the hard time.Right.By the power through.Thanks.Thanks.
Yeah, because this is the time where. I think I feel like people might look at my face and go on.Does he know that he hasn't shaved his upper lip?Like, is that intentional?It doesn't look intent.You know, is it Movember?
Is it not, you know, in your face?
It's an awkward, awkward phase.So in Dublin, We call it a Rani.A Rani is like when a teenage boy first has his first, like, upper-lift buzz, you know, he has a Rani, you know.So it's that Rani phase.
You're looking Rani there, Brian.
Thanks, Mitch.So it's great to have you here.I'm so excited to be talking to you on the podcast for many reasons.And.You know, it might be a good place to start with what you do for work and how you're involved in moustache farming.
You nailed it on the head.I'm a moustache farmer, Brian. Yeah, so what do I do for work?I am lucky enough to work for the charity Movember, which a lot of people know for the mustaches that we grow obviously in this month of November.
And a lot of people may think Movember is just like a movement or a thing that people do, but it is actually a charity.We're the world's largest charity actually. We operate in over 20 countries.
We've raised over a billion dollars for Men's Health over the past 20 years.And our big vision is to help men live healthier, happier, longer lives.
And we do that by starting conversations around Men's Health, for sure, with these beautiful mustaches, but also raising important funds for critical areas.And we focus on Men's Health holistically, but
specifically prostate cancer, which is the most common cancer for older men.Cicular cancer, the number one cancer for younger men worldwide.And then mental health and suicide prevention, which is a huge issue.So that needs a lot more attention.
We lose one man to suicide every minute globally. And so we're using these powerful mustaches to raise that awareness and raise funds.And my job is I'm based in Vancouver, Canada.
I've been with Mobile Vancouver Canada for over 10 years, believe it or not.And I lead our fundraising team here in Canada.
So really kind of what you said, being a mustache farmer, really trying to grow the movement out here, whether you're in a workplace or your friend group or whatever it may be and advocating for the cause along the way. That's what I do.
And I feel pretty lucky to be able to do it.
Yeah, it's a cool job.I mean, it's a very unique job.
It is.Yes.I never thought I'd be here.Definitely not for 10 years, but grateful every day for it, for sure.
How did you end up doing what you're doing?
Yeah, so you don't go to school for mustache firing, Brian, as you may have guessed.So my hairy journey to Movember was a pretty unique one.
Like a lot of people that have supported Movember, I started growing mustache with some friends actually at my workplace.I used to work at KPMG. your listeners may know it, financial service firm, really big.
And at the time I was in Ottawa here in Canada, and I just did it because it was happening in my work.And honestly, the first year I grew up, I hated my mustache.That was a long time ago.That was 15 years ago.
So it would have been like around 2010 or something. But I raised a hundred bucks in the first year.The second year, I went a little bit, I grew a handlebar, something similar to what I'm rocking today.And I raised a thousand dollars.
I'm like, okay, this was kind of a bit more fun.And then the third year, a guy at work who was leading it, he left the firm and asked if I would take over and lead the campaign.
So I helped in, I led the campaign, had a pretty big campaign, rallied a lot of the partners, actually created
You know, as an aside, a Braveheart video, and if your listeners know the main scene where he does that, you know, inspiring speech, he's got the blue face paint on.I actually dressed up like William Wallace.My friend had a horror suite.
I recorded the video and I changed the speech from fighting prostate cancer to fighting, or from fighting the English to fighting prostate cancer.
And then lured all these accountants into a boardroom and showed them this video and we did a big kickoff.
And I invited a guy from Movember there and he got up there with his mustache and his blazer and started talking about Movember and men's health.And I'm like, this guy has the best job ever. How cool is that?
And anyways, he came off after he's like, Mitch, that video was awesome.Can you send it to me?
And through that, we became a connected kind of friends, I guess you could say, and sent him a text at the end of November being like, hey, if a job ever opens up, let me know.And kind of forgot about it.
And then two years later, he reached out, just sent me a message on Facebook saying, hey, a job opened up.Like, do you want to join?And yeah, the rest is history.So very grateful.
Yeah, it's pretty cool.I'm like from knowing you and, you know, I see your social media all the time.You get exposure to lots of different types of organizations, construction industry, finance industry, tech, health care.
Yeah, I have the most random network you can imagine, at least in Canada, from every industry across the whole country. which has been really cool to kind of have that exposure.I think it's actually one of the most beautiful parts about Mocamber.
It's, you know, you can be in a grocery line and you see a young kid with like the grossest looking mustache ever.And then right behind him is a guy in a suit and he's also growing a mustache and he works at a bank.
And then right behind him is like a construction worker doing the same thing.So it's, this cause just touches so many guys and resonates with so many men, regardless of what industry or walk of life you're in.
It's kind of like a cool unifier for guys to get behind a common cause.
Amazing.Yeah.And, you know, the majority of our listeners, well, they're a mix of people in the corporate world, finance, recruitment, car sales, you name it, any business that has people, business owners, our friends and family listen to it.And so
One thing I sometimes think about with the you know the moniker of men's health is maybe sometimes people might have the perception that it's like exclusive or you know that it's maybe know, a boys club or something like that.
And from my involvement, I've seen that it's very different to that.And I wonder, could you speak to that a little bit in in what makes it so special?
Yeah, I mean, I think that's an understandable first reaction to Movember, because we're known for growing mustaches and most of the time.It's only for that guys can do that.
But I think when you peel it and go beyond below the surface, you understand that's probably not an accurate interpretation of whatever it is and what it represents.When you think about men's health, Men's health does not just impact men.
Similar to breast cancer, it does not just impact women.It impacts families, communities, and workplaces.You lose a dad to prostate cancer, that impacts a family right there.
And I think, especially when we look at the mental health side of things, you ask anyone that's lost a friend to suicide,
That is a ripple effect that goes far and wide across a community or a workplace and a family, and sometimes generationally, right?Like, I lost my grandfather to suicide.I never met him.I think about that guy all the time, right?
Like, what I missed out on, what I could have learned from him, what memories I could have made with him. I'll never know.He took his life and I was like, what?And it still impacts me.I never met the guy.
So men's health doesn't just impact men, it impacts so many more things, right?And I think, you know, Practically speaking, so how do you get involved if you can't grow a mustache or even if you don't want to grow a mustache, right?
A lot of guys don't want to or feel like, ah, I literally can't.And so getting involved there's other ways.So you can take our move challenge, which is you walk around 60 kilometers in the month.So when you sign up, you can choose that.
Or if you're a huge marathoner, we have people that run 30 marathons in the month or four marathons in the month.Or maybe they do a stair climb or you know, I'm doing a pull up challenge myself like this year.
So you can get really creative with how you want to get involved.You don't have to grow a mustache.You can just do whatever you want to do to support this cause that really impacts all of us.
And the idea then is you create a profile on the Movember site, which then people can support by offering donations or sharing it.
Yeah, exactly.So if you've never done it before, you head to Movember.com, you sign up, create a little profile, add your face, maybe set a fundraising target, like why you're doing it.And then
You send out that profile to your friends and family through social media or an email or a text message, share why Movember is important to you, ask for donations.
And you can say, hey, I'm growing this awful mustache on my face, like please donate, or hey, I'm running 60 kilometers this month, or if I hit a thousand bucks, I'm dying my hair blonde, please support me for this really important cause.
So you can activate it however you want, but that's practically how you get involved, yeah.
Yeah, and like it's interesting you mentioned that I went to when I moved home from Canada last year, I went to a documentary screening of an Irish guy who ran 30 kilometers in 30 days in 8 of November.
And they released the documentary last year, but they'd actually filmed it a couple of years before ago.And the guy that the director of that documentary, he had lost his dad to suicide.He was actually a teacher in my high school. Oh, wow.
And the reason I went to the event is because Stevie, who owns Fodzell Saunas, who sponsors this podcast, he was on his Movember team in Ireland.
And it was it's there was something special for me about being able to connect with the cause that's very close to my heart in both Canada and in Ireland that it crosses nations, you know?
Yeah. Totally.I do think that is pretty unique thing about Movember and whether you're walking around Dublin or around the world.My favorite thing about Movember is you're walking down the street.
you see maybe another guy approaching, you're like, you're squinting.It's like, Oh, is that a mustache?I don't know.You get a little closer.You're like, yeah, I'm pretty sure.
And then as you cross, like maybe you catch eyes and you both know you're both doing it for November and maybe you don't say anything.Maybe it's just like a slight nod or like a fist bump or whatever, but, uh, you know, you're doing it together.
And like, how cool is that?And then to your point, like knowing that, This is happening all across the world.We're in 20 countries.It's activating across.
You know, globally, and that you're part of this global movement of men and women getting involved to support men, it's just it's a pretty cool thing to know that you're part of a community and.
Doing this as a collective, it's it's the magic of November, I would say for sure.
Yeah, and I mean, that's how we met, because I did a three month contract early in my career.
probably like 10 years ago now, where we, I was working with Neil and Jack, who were part of our small little band of three people in the Irish team in November.
And it was a time when Movember was like at one of its heights in Ireland, like a lot of the rugby players in the November internationals were growing their mustaches.And I've actually seen this year that a few of them are again.
So it's kind of having this resurgence in Ireland.And this is from my perspective.And that year we projected a massive mustache on the Cliffs of Moher, which is a famous site in Ireland.
And we had we won the best social media campaign that year in like Movember wide.So it was like really cool to be part of that. And when I moved to Vancouver, Jack said, oh, Mitch is over there.And I think he just moved to Vancouver.
And it was such a great way for us to get to connect with you.And like my four or five years there, it was like just really cool to have someone that I know
has a lot of similar values to me in terms of speaking openly, advocating, supporting each other through things.And yeah, now we're talking now two years after I've come back and the connection is still there, which I very much cherish.
And, you know, when I first got involved in Movember, it was mainly to do with prostate cancer and then testicular cancer.And I've in the last few years, I've noticed a real growth, excuse the pun, in raising awareness for men's mental health.
And you know, I know a few people who have been and gone through treatment for prostate cancer.A friend of mine from high school passed away from testicular cancer and sadly, you know, suicide has affected many people's lives in the circles I know.
And.But the mental health side for me is probably something that I'm most passionate about, because at times in my life when I experienced really severe.Depression or anxiety.It's that's kind of what connects me to the cause, because.
I was listening to Scott Galloway on the Diary of a CEO podcast, and he was talking about in the US anyway, four out of five suicides are men.And as you said, like there's a man passing away to suicide every minute.And, you know.
I've experienced really dark thoughts in my life and the Movember team in Canada, really, and you guys really helped me through a difficult time.I wonder, could you speak a little bit to that in terms of
What do you see are some of the big things that men and we as men can do to encourage other men to speak when maybe it's not something they've been exposed to or been trained to do?
Yeah.Yeah, OK, so.A lot in there, I would say, like.Yeah, Movember at the beginning to point like. Cancer is an important cause that we support.
I'd say on that side, we've invested a ton of money into, especially prostate cancer globally, that we've really put prostate cancer on the map, made advancements in research, the diagnosis, and also the awareness, like getting guys to actually go to the doctor.
And so much so like five or 10 years from now, we'll have grandfathers and fathers alive that never would have been if it wasn't thanks to people like you growing your mustache and funding this great work in prostate cancer.
Where we're losing the battle is on the mental health side and where arguably some of the most shocking stats exist.And you mentioned four out of five suicides in Ireland are men. It's a very similar stat across the world.
Like if you're looking to, it's three out of four, I think it's in Canada, I think it's four out of five in the US maybe, and I think in same in Australia.So regardless of where your listeners are, that is a stat that's pretty global actually.
And it's really shocking.And even the World Health Organization estimates that for every suicide that occurs, there are 20 other attempts.
And then when you take another step back and just think about the amount of men that are maybe contemplating it, have suicidal ideation, or just like in a really dark place in their life, the numbers just start to add up where this is arguably the biggest issue impacting men's health today.
And it doesn't get much attention at all, right?You don't hear about it a lot at all. as bad as all those stats are, the truth is that they are preventable.These stats don't need to be this way.
Suicide is largely preventable, which is why I think it also makes it as tragic, right, to see these stats so high.And why I think it is one that resonates with so many people, and especially now more and more, because I think we've all
recognize that we all go through struggles in life, right?It doesn't matter who you are, where you live, what car you drive, we're all going to go through tough times in life.
And it doesn't matter like how tough or how awesome of an executive you are, or, you know, You're gonna go through loss in your life.You're gonna maybe go through financial troubles.Maybe you're gonna go through a relationship breakdown or a divorce.
Maybe you're gonna go through a miscarriage or two with your partner that puts a huge strain on you.These are things that happen, and there are gonna be times in all of our life that we struggle.And historically, men haven't had the tools, knowledge,
and skills to deal with it in the past.And so there's been a big disconnect on how you actually deal with those moments in life.And that's what Mobam is trying to do with this tough topic is use
you know, the mustache to shine a light on this really tough topic to talk about and make sure guys do have, you know, some tools in the toolbox to manage their mental health and recognize those times in life that they might be struggling.
So they actually take action for themselves and then also to help others in our lives.Because the other thing to know is across the world, mental health services are not where they need to be to support our community.Oftentimes in many countries,
If you need mental health support, it could be a huge wait time or it's very expensive, so you can't access that support or get as much as you would like in a timely manner.Oftentimes you look for a therapist maybe as a two or three month wait.
What do you do in that interim period?And so I think that's where we all play a role to play as communities and people that have men in our lives that we want. to be doing well, is how do we support them?
And how can we help recognize the signs of distress that might be going through a tough time and support them in the interim so that they can be well, right?So how can we be there to support the guys in our lives?
I think one is upskilling ourselves around what are the signs that a guy might be going through a tough time? and also what are the times in life where guys might be going, more likely to be going through a tough time.
We did a study here in Canada, but again, it relates around the world, that 59% of Canadian men said they expect, they feel society expects them to be always strong and to show no weakness.
And another set was like 39% of guys said they would not talk to others about how they feel to avoid feeling unmanly.
And I think these stats just go to highlight, you know, this is kind of the traditional way of masculinity that a lot of society has been brought up to believe.You need to be that tough stoic guy, never ask for help, be self-reliant.
And so many guys take this to heart.And there's a lot of, you know, there's a lot of positive things about guys.Like they want to be the provider, they want to, you know, support their family, want to look after others.
And so as a result, they don't pay as much attention on themselves. And they also don't historically, traditional masculinity, like reach out for help or admit that they're struggling.
And so instead of reaching out for help, oftentimes guys instead may isolate themselves or turn to alcohol or take on more risky behaviors.And so some of these things can be hard to notice if you have a friend that's going through a tough time.
We've seen so many celebrity suicides that, oh, You didn't know anything was wrong until suddenly the news hits and you find out they took their own life. We've noticed with guys, especially, is trying to notice changes in behavior.
They may not come out and say, hey, I'm struggling, because they're trying to hold that stoic, tough it out mentality.But maybe they're the king of the group chat, and suddenly they go quiet.
Maybe they're always coming out to football practice or whatever it may be, and now they're suddenly missing practice or games.They just seem a little bit off.And sometimes it might be that.
Maybe that's something normal in life, but it may be something deeper worth investigating.So if you know something's off with a friend or a buddy, maybe just reach out and just do a little bit of a check-in.
The other thing is to recognize the times where men are more likely to be struggling.And we often say times of transition. are times you're more likely.And it's understandable.
Things like big life events, whether you're moving a city or changing a job, going through divorce or a job loss, becoming a new dad is a big transition, can be really joyous moment for a lot of men, but can also add a lot of new stress.
Maybe lack of sleep, like you can't hang out with friends as much, maybe put strains on your relationship.So a lot of men can struggle during that time.And so,
between the two of these, be able to notice the times that a man might be changing their behavior if they're going through a transition and using that, being like, hey, I'm gonna reach out to my friend.
I know he just lost his job and he's been a little bit quiet on the group chat.He's probably not feeling the greatest.I'm just gonna reach out and ask him how he's doing.
That conversation is also uncomfortable for a lot of guys, because we're not really up-skilled about how to have that conversation, and so, learning how to do that I think is really important.We created an online tool that does just that.
It upskills you on how to support the people in your life.It's called Movember Conversations.You can head to conversations.movember.com and check it out.But basically, it trains you on
Very simple, it's not rocket science, but I'd have that conversation if everybody that's going through a tough time, how do you support them and encourage your listeners to check it out?
It uses our ALEC framework, which is ask, listen, encourage action, and check in.It's really simple.Encourage people to go check it out.
Alec, I really like that.Ask, listen, encourage action, and check in.
Check in, yeah.And I guess I could really quickly just share, asking is the hardest part.So find a space that's comfortable.Don't do it in a group setting.Maybe one-on-one's better.
We often actually say shoulder-to-shoulder conversations are easier for guys.Go for a walk or maybe you're driving in the car.It's just easier for men to open up.Find a good spot and then ask them how they're doing.
A good tip here is just share what you notice and ask them how they're doing.So, hey, I noticed you've been a bit quiet lately on the group chat, and I know you've been going through that divorce lately.I've been kind of thinking about you.
How are you doing?Many times men will deflect, they'll be like, I'm good, nah, don't worry about it.Encourage you to stay curious, maybe ask again.Nah, it's gotta be tough.Honestly, how are you doing?They may open up, they may not.
A tip that I've found really helpful to get guys to open up, it's called modeling honest conversations, where if you show a little bit of vulnerability first and demonstrate what that looks like, they'll be much more likely to do the same.
And so I can say, hey, it's great to see you.Man, I've been going, I've been having a tough week.Work's been nuts.I feel like I'm dropping the ball at work.And as a dad, me and my partner Sandy have been going,
Having a rough time, it's been really rough.How about you?I know you've been going through a divorce and I've been thinking about you, how are you doing?
So in that scenario, they're much more likely to open up because you've created a safe space and you've shown a lot of vulnerability, which is a gift.
And actually they'll feel almost like they should reciprocate that when you ask them how they're doing.So that's a great tip to kind of like get the conversation going.
And yeah, like I said, there's a lot more tips on that, conversations.movember.com.
Yeah, the vulnerability piece is massive.I was only just listening to Brené Brown on Oprah today.As one does.As one does.And I'm obsessed with Brené Brown.There's a lot of work on vulnerability and shame and, you know, shame loves secrecy.And
If ever I've been feeling down, sad, depressed, hard on myself, incessant negative thoughts, no matter where I turn, being hard on myself,
you know, as someone who works as a coach, who I hold space for individuals, teams, I purport to, you know, know about these things.It kind of doubled down on me when I was going through a difficult time.
I felt even more shameful that I was experiencing those things and it made me even less likely to share it.And that bottling up for months and months just meant it exploded, you know, and That's something that I found really tough.
And when I was listening to Brené Brown this morning, she mentioned going through like a spiritual breakthrough or a breakdown and going into intense therapy for two years.
And I just thought, oh, OK, I've been back in therapy this year doing a lot of internal work on myself.And I was like, oh, if Brené Brown has to go to therapy, maybe it's OK that I have to go to therapy as well.You know, and.
You know, a friend of mine who I met earlier this year, mentioned to me that they weren't sleeping.And I was like, oh.
The alarm bells went off for me because I was like, I know in times in my life, there's been like probably three major times in my life where I've gone through a couple of weeks of insomnia and you feel like you're losing your mind.
So straight away I was able to go, hold on a second.When I've experienced sleeplessness, I was in rag order and I was all over the place and it was really tough.How are you experiencing it, you know?
Yeah, sleep, I think, is a major thing, a major little warning sign.I also think about this in the workplace.That's the frame of reference that we're often coming to people.That's the prism with which we work.
And it seems to me that Alec and the vulnerability piece would be very valuable in the workplace. It seems to me that there's probably a slight difference in.The level of openness or intimacy someone might feel.If they're speaking, yeah.
Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, whether you're.In the workplace or on a sports field or hanging out with friends at the bar and workplace, you're still dealing with people, obviously, and to get the most of your people.
they need to be physically well, mentally well, otherwise you're not gonna get the most out of them.
So, you know, it's interesting, like chatting with, I was chatting with an energy, a health and wellness professional in the energy sector, and we're talking about psychological safety, which is a new term that they have in the energy sector.
Obviously, energy sector, construction, industry, the big focus on physical safety.And they do toolbox talks at the beginning of every day to make sure everyone's staying top of mind around physical safety.
But this is a new term that's kind of come into the industry in the past couple of years around being psychologically safe.If you're not mentally there, actually, you're at a higher risk of physical safety.
So they're trying to put a bigger emphasis on that. But talking about psychological safety is, it's not just providing, you know, EAP resources or mental health spending account to your employees.
Psychological safety is about creating a culture where people actually feel safe to openly share or disclose things that they're going through on their mental.So it's not enough to say, hey, you can talk to me about your mental health.
but are you actually creating a culture where people feel safe to do so?
I will say, and I'm a bit biased, but this is where Movember can play a nice role in, it's a 30-day campaign, it's fun, you do it with your employees, but it's also a Trojan horse way to really talk about mental health and use Movember as a 30-day vehicle to like,
bringing up the importance around mental health and caring for your employees and workplace, and kind of creating that safe space for people to do so, where they actually feel that there's a culture now where we can actually do that.
You have to be authentic with it, right?But yeah, I think ALEC is something that can still be used with, you notice that an employee is off or they seem a little bit different, just saying like,
Instead of assuming they're being lazy or instead of assuming they're, you know, slacking, maybe they're going through something and maybe thinking of that first and checking in with them as a person before assuming that they're just underperforming on purpose or whatever it may be.
I think it's a really important thing.And I just wanted to go back to something else you said, Brian, around a couple things. having someone in your life where you can talk to.
Alec is great, but to open up and be vulnerable to somebody, it requires you to actually have a bit of trust there.Similar to creating that environment in a workplace,
To open up to somebody, you're not going to just open up to a random person or an acquaintance.It's not normally something we do.It's someone that you have a bit more trust in, a bit more of a bond.
And it's so important as guys, and something we don't value as much is keeping those close social connections. that when you do go through a tough time, you actually do have somebody in your roster where you feel like, oh, I feel comfortable.
I could chat with this person.Too many men actually don't have that person in their life.There's actually studies that show after about the age of 30, men start to lose close social connections.We start to lose friends.And it's completely
know, natural, I guess.You know, you think about life gets busy, job takes over, maybe you get married, you have kids, that becomes the thing.
Maybe your close friends, they move away, or maybe you move away to a different city or whatever it may be, and you just start to lose those close friends that know, back in university, you maybe would have opened up to and been really vulnerable.
But now, you don't have that person anymore.And you lose touch.Guys, we're terrible at keeping in touch with friends that maybe move away.
And so, when you hit 50, then maybe you go through a divorce or a job loss or something hard, you actually don't have those close connections.And you have no one to talk to.And so, instead, you isolate yourselves.And I don't mean to paint like a
bad picture, but this is what is happening for far too many men.Women are really good at, I would say are better on average at keeping in touch and making plans and social connection, that type of thing.
Guys, we need to be aware of this as something that, hey, I may have to put a bit more effort into this, but it's important for me to be, for me to take care of my mental health.I often say like, mental health can be a very,
intimidating, vague, broad thing.I think as guys, I think something that's helpful is how do you wanna go on offense and defense for your mental health?
There's gonna be times in life where you're gonna have to be reactive and you're gonna have to, oh wow, this just happened, I need to find a therapist and try to work through this.But there's things we can do and go on offense for our mental health.
And I think a big one is around social connection and maintaining our close friends so that if anything happens,
you know you're gonna have a roster of guys that you can lean on and go to, and maybe you've kind of created a culture among your friend group of sharing.
You know, I've seen some amazing things online where like, guys will do, every month, we book a call.Doesn't matter where you are in the world, you book a call and you chat for an hour.
I've seen something else where every Wednesday, guys will just send a video update of how they're doing in their group chat.Maybe it's four or five guys, and they live across the world, but, they know they have that connection.
And maybe it's like you book an annual guy's trip, you go golfing or whatever it may be, but make it a priority.
Be deliberate about it because it is probably one of the most important things you can do for your mental health is keeping those close friends in your life.
I'm just thinking about, you know, anybody listening, any wives or partners of men who may be rolling their eyes at their annual golf trip or the Monday night soccer or the Friday morning swim.
And maybe you can still maybe they'll still roll their eyes while also being like, oh, that's actually even though it looks like it's just a weekend away with the guys, it's actually super important for that person to have that.Totally.
And To be honest, this was not something that I realized was really important to me until I started paying attention to it.Because I'd be like, what, to keep hanging out with my friends is good for my mental health?It's like, yeah.
Mental health is how you feel.It's your mood.Have you ever noticed after a good hang session with your friends, how good you feel? That is your mental health.It's that social connection.We are social beings.
You ever notice if you are going through a tough time and you call a friend or catch up for a beer and you just can offload, how much better you feel?Because you chatted about it with your best bud.That is your mental health.
And so just be aware of that and use that as a tool.Even if you're just going through a tough week or stressed out at work, phone up a friend.I promise you afterwards you're going to feel better.
And, you know, as you say that, I think about when I've been lucky enough to be able to be there for somebody.I always feel appreciative that they could come to me with what they were coming to, like it's actually a privilege the other way as well.
Oh, yeah.So it's a gift.Yeah.Like a gift.You know, as guys, we love to help and sometimes be problem solvers and like that type of thing.
And I'm not saying you need to solve, if you have a friend that's struggling, I'm not saying you need to solve their problem.In fact, sometimes the best thing you can do is just listen and not try to solve the problem.
But it's a gift to give to a friend to know that you came to them for their support or that you wanted.And it makes your relationship closer.That is what Surface level things like talking about sports and cars and whatever, that's surface level.
Where you really feel a connection is when you go deeper.And there's so much juicy goodness there if we just let ourselves and our friendships go to that place.You don't need to talk about it all the time.
You don't need to be being vulnerable every time you hang out with somebody, but it's great to have someone to go through the stuff with.Don't need to do it alone.
I agree.I agree.The cinnamon and oat group that.
I got to get involved in that you're still running in Canada was an amazing group, guys who were all come together once a year from like a ragtag group of chefs and journalists and construction workers and tech guys, and it was a real mix and.
It was like something I look forward to every year is like the events that would happen and get to meet people from all different walks of life and kind of a shared goal, shared purpose.
Mm hmm.Yeah, so.As your listeners know, I work for Movember, it is my job full time all year round, but I am.A Mobro by heart, like. I was a Movember supporter, so a few years back, yes, I started a Movember team.
So in the month, I like to have fun, grow mustaches, bring my friends group together, created this team called Team Cinnamon Oak.And yeah, it started out small and now it's grown to over 50, I think we have over 50 guys on board this year.
mainly in Vancouver, but then we have some in Toronto and Calgary.And we just try to come together and have some fun, do some good and host a bunch of events.
Every year we do this whiskey turtleneck night where we bring out our 10 day old mustaches and we'll put on turtlenecks and a blazer and
You were there, Brian, like we come together and take some pretty hilarious photos and we have some whiskey and there's some beer and it's a good time to get together.But then we also. have a men's health panel every year.
So maybe an hour after like chat and banter, we all sit down and we bring in a panel and some of the guys from the team will go up and share maybe something they've gone through, whether it's cancer or mental health, that we always have a men's health expert from Vancouver there.
We've had John Olaf, who was a UBC men's health expert.This year we've got Dr. Cox from Vancouver Prostate Center.He's gonna be coming and speaking about that.It's just like,
a fun way to have some fun, but then have these meaningful conversations with a bunch of guys.And they're all from different walks of life, but they end up creating bonds.How do you make friends?
I think this is something that is a challenge for us guys as we get older. how do you actually make real friends when life is busy?
You make friends by shared experience in doing hard things together and being vulnerable and having moments that are real, that go beyond, okay, you meet somebody at a networking event, you ask them what they do for work.
No, this goes way beyond that.So, Doing Movember for three days, you're growing mustaches.You all look terrible together.It builds that bond.We've got 10 events throughout the month that guys are going to show up at.
We've got a WhatsApp group where there's some banter and there's sharing, and we've got a newsletter where guys can actually share why they do Movember and get a little bit more vulnerable.
I didn't intend it to grow to this extent, this team Cinnamon and Oak, but it's really been cool thing to see come to life and grow and be a place where guys create connection and lasting friendships.
And in Vancouver, which is often not the easiest place to make new friends, it's been a vehicle to allow guys to do exactly that.
Amazing.I think it's a great example of practicing what you preach and also what you're talking about, which is it's it's quite simple.
I mean, there's amazing messages I see all on the November social media about finding the right therapist, going to therapy, being, you know, working with like, you know, working with a coach or working with somebody.
But I think the missing piece in that messaging is often. I remember when I was younger, someone very close to me came to me with the problem was like, oh, you need to go to therapy.Forgetting that.Oh, they were coming to me.
And that was valuable in itself.And like, you know, what I do now is like, I'll still recommend that person to go to therapy, but I'll engage in the conversation and listen.And that was a big learning point for me.
And I think that's a really important message, both for anybody who's listening to this in the workplace or as a leader of a business, as well as.Yeah, any anybody who has a man in their life, pretty much.
Yeah, yeah, totally.Just letting in the air to a friend or a colleague can be therapeutic for them, especially doing it in a non-judgmental way or not trying to fix them like they feel like they can just open up to you.That can be therapy for them.
Now, if it's something a little bit more significant or they're not sleeping at all, that may go outside of what you can do as a friend to support them, to your point.That's when you ask them, recommend maybe you should go see a therapist too.
And by the way, this is all part of that ALEC framework, which is you listen, you encourage action, check in, that type of thing.And that's on our conversations.movember.com.And to the point of therapy,
And going back to that tool again, Movember Conversations, there's now a section on Movember Conversations, this free online tool that's all about therapy and men in therapy.And it's a five-part video series.Each video is like three minutes long.
It's hosted by a comedian.It's basically all about destigmatizing what is therapy. what it is, what it isn't, what to expect on that first session, what to look for in a therapist, maybe what questions to ask.
Testimonials of guys that have gone through it and the power it's been for them.Because I think therapy has gotten a really bad rap. reality is it's a great tool for anyone to use in life when you need it.
And chances are like we could all benefit from it at some point and there's no shame in going to it.Just, you know, we go to a physiotherapist for, you know, a busted knee, you know, there's no shame.Hey, I'm feeling a little bit off right now.
I'm going to just try to chat through it with therapists and they can help a lot.So, um, Love that you shared that you've gone to it.I go to it as well.I'll go to all the time.
Sometimes there's life periods I'll take, you know, six, 12 months off, but then I'm gonna get back to it.I kind of want to, some things are bubbling up for me.I just want to kind of chat through it with somebody.It's totally healthy.
And I think it's something that we can definitely need to flip the script on.And this tool can maybe help guys explore that a little bit if and when it's right for them.
Brilliant.I think that's a beautiful point to start bringing our conversation to a close.It's been such a pleasure chatting with you on many levels.Is there anything else that you'd like to say or that we haven't covered?
No, I think it's been great, Brian.It's good to have these conversations.I think, you know, Movember from the start has always been about starting conversations.You know, you grow this mustache and it's like, what is that on your face?
And it opens the door to have a conversation like, I'm doing this for prostate cancer or for my buddy that's struggling with his mental health. You know, your listeners, they may not be doing Movember, but I encourage them to head to movember.com.
Check it out.There's some great tools there.Again, conversations.movember.com.Spend 15 minutes.It'll be worth it.I promise you.Just poke around there.Learn about Alec.Ask, listen, encourage, action, check in.
If it's month, you can donate to the charity.Amazing.Funds really important work that literally saves lives. And last but not least, I just encourage all your listeners to, this month, find a guy in your life.
Maybe it's your dad, uncle, friend, cousin, whoever it is, and give him a ring.Check in on them.Ask your dad, when was the last time you got your prostate checked?
Or as we've been talking a lot about today on mental health, like find that friend, spend 15 minutes, learn about Alec and what to do and phone a friend and just be like, Hey, I just want to check in.I've been thinking about you.How are you doing?
And maybe they're doing great, which is awesome.Maybe they're like, yeah, actually, you know, it's been a rough time.Um, and I promise you that'll be one of the best conversations you'll have all month.So, um,
Yeah, no, Brian, just thanks so much for having us on and helping spread the hairy word here.It's an important one and, you know, we can't do it alone.
Really rely on community members like yourself and all those folks listening to help us move this message around so we can change the face of men's health.
Yeah, I really enjoyed that conversation with Mitch. I really got to connect with him again after a couple of years living here from being back in Canada.I really liked the Alec analogy.
Straight away after the conversation, I called a couple of buddies and not necessarily friends that needed, that I was worried about, more just in reminding me of the importance of checking in with people and how easy it is not to.
I don't know what that is with women, as in the genders, but I know that from the lads' point of view, a lot of the time, I feel if I'm not making connection with someone, they might fall off the edge of the planet.
And I don't mean that anything will happen to them, just that our relationship, as lads, we're not great to keep connected.
I'm going to ask you, what did the, what does the November thing bring up for you vis-a-vis your connection with Mitch and comparing it to being home?
Well, first of all, it's something that I'm very passionate about.The whole concept of mental health and emotional awareness, self-awareness and especially for men as well.
I always felt sensitive and even growing up in an all boys school, rugby environments, then being in sales environments as well, were particularly boiler rooms of generally testosterone and masculinity and power and pushing towards success and achievement and domination.
These are all just words that come to me. internally I always have this inner kind of conversation with wanting to be successful and wanting to achieve and to win and to compete while also wanting to
include and not burn myself out or if I'm not feeling great to be able to speak about it and sometimes in my life I felt able to speak about those difficult times but most often than not I felt like environments it wasn't welcomed and
I think growing a moustache for Movember is like a fun silly thing to do with your mates.But actually I've even found, like I was speaking with someone today and they said, oh, you got a moustache.
I was like, yeah, it's for Movember men's mental health.And yeah, like in the past I suffered really bad anxiety and depression. And I still find it hard to say that, you know?There's such shame in saying it sometimes I feel.
And like, I don't walk around carrying that either.Like, I don't like to say, oh, I suffer from, because right now I don't feel anxious or I don't feel depressed.
But it depends on the label you put on something.So like you suffer from or versus I've experienced it.Yes.Because we can all experience all sorts of emotion.Exactly.
You know, whereas when you say like I suffer from it's like kind of like is that like every second day or is that something you carry all the time versus no, I've experienced that.
And, you know, I think most people have experienced most of the gambit of any emotion that you're going to have.
And that's the tough thing I think especially for men when we're experiencing dark times like that is we don't remember that most people experience those things and it's only when the conversation happens have I learned that oh a lot of people have experienced
sleepless nights, anxiousness, weeks on weeks of a low mood or lack of motivation or lack of appetite or however it manifests for someone, anger, you know.
And it's my belief that the more we speak about this in a certain way can increase the awareness around it. decrease the stigma of it.
Well, that's what I found lovely about the conversation is listening to the two of you and the connection you have and the connection and how important he was in that connection to helping you move home when you're moving home that time.
It reminds me of how connections are everlasting cross border and the whole Movember movement. I mean I got involved originally when you were involved back in the day and doing your internship in there.
But I just see it, I just witness it from the outside looking in and seeing how it helps the awareness of. And how can that be anything other than good?And the work that Mitch is doing and others are doing?
Well, I think sometimes the fear is, and I sense it, is that if we talk about it, it'll propagate it, it'll increase it, it'll it'll increase the prevalence of it.And I've seen that in workplaces and I've seen that in teams.
I've seen that in families, in friendships.You know, I don't want to put a downer on things.
And that's one of the things I really liked about the conversation with Mitch is we've both said that when friends of ours have come to us, it's felt like a privilege.
And there's been times where I didn't have the tools and I wasn't able to show for people in the way I feel like I can now.And it's always a learning process.So there's always stuff to learn in that area.That's why I love the ALEC analogy.
Ask, listen, encourage action, check in.Very, very simple. Like I said, I called a couple of friends afterwards, how are you getting on?And often it's funny, and I remember doing this in the SOAR workshops with Tony Griffin.
You ask someone how they are, and then you do the second or third ask.And in a way where you can actually give someone a chance.
And it was so funny, the other day, I had a conversation with someone and they were saying how in Ireland it's so funny, you go, how are you?And the answer is, how are you? It's so funny that actually we just say, and there's nothing wrong with that.
It's more just, it was so funny for someone outside coming in going, oh, the person's not actually asking how you are.It's more just a greeting.And I think that's kind of endemic to what's going on in general in society is that
We often don't have time or don't have the tools to be there for someone when they want to talk about something like that.
And I hope that people hear it's not, I'm not coming at that from a place of judgment because I was listening to Brené Brown speak with Mark Brackett, who they're both
researchers on emotions and vulnerability and all these things and they said yeah like if my daughter or son says to me at 7 45 in the morning when I ask how they feel I feel overwhelmed sad and a little bit depressed you know I might say to them can you tell me that in the car when we're on the way to school like yeah so even they were saying it's difficult in the busiest life to always hold space and I know you and I have had conversations before how sometimes
wading and swimming in the darkness of it can sometimes be self-perpetuating and I think that's a delicate balance that I'm still learning is where can I have an awareness of my emotions and these deep feelings that I sometimes have and then where can I help myself to crawl out of them and
run out of them sometimes.
I love to say the phrase you got to feel it to heal it or you got to name it to tame it and that's my general sense that I remember growing up I was a teenager I remember saying to you I have this like weird feeling in my tummy and you're like you know go to the gym go for a run
and while that helped temporarily what I wanted to do was understand what was going on for me first and then take the action.
So that's where I think and where my opinion is that we're moving towards is that deeper sense of understanding to then move beyond it.Again I'm right in the middle of the journey of that but I think that's why I was so
you know, grateful to have the conversation, because to give the platform, and you know, if one person listens to this and thinks, God, I haven't experienced these things right now, or I have in the past, and someone else is as well, you know, that's, and they get to do something about it, or they feel less alone, I think that's a win.
And, you know, on top of that, Part of the shame of talking about these things is, you know, high performers who are people who generally listen to our podcast, you know, who want to get more out of themselves.
I don't want to, I sometimes, I'm afraid to be seen to be talking about these things in those environments because I don't want to be seen as those conversations to be a drag factor on their trajectories towards success.
But what I'm learning through my own self-discovery, through reading all these books and listening to all these podcasts, is actually, if you come to a deeper level of an understanding of these things, you'll have better tools and you can find better tools to actually integrate that into your life.
Rather than this cycle where I found myself going through was success, burnout, success, burnout, success, burnout.And yeah, that's...
other than, you know, catching up with a great friend that I'm really happy the connection is, you know, still living on after living in different countries.They're the other reasons why I'm passionate about having these conversations.Well done.
It's a great conversation.
And I know people are going to get something out of it.Thanks.And like, what about for you and your generation, let's say, and the people or the teams that you work with.Because, you know, I see your calendar.It's very full every single day.
So you're connecting with lots and lots of people.And often people are coming to you because they want to perform better or they want to manage or lead better.But I'm guessing that people come to you in tough, dark times as well.All of them.
Like I would say, the height of success is filled with anxiety and self-doubt and challenge and all of everything.So I'm dealing with that all day every day.When I say dealing with that, it's there in my environment, in my zeitgeist.
And I haven't met anyone yet who has any degree of achievement above the average who hasn't experienced all sorts of emotion from self-doubt to anxiety, to worry, fear.I started working with a client last week and their absolute
The goal is to operate from a place of no fear.That's how they describe it.So this will be a success if I can get rid of the fear I operate from.
a person with lots and lots of years' experience has a stake in their business, a successful business, and they've just hit a place in their life now where they're saying, I just don't need to be carrying on with this anxiety.
It's like, what's gotten me here is great, and I can tell all the things that have gotten me here.I have a great style of living, my children are growing, and all that's going with that.But I would just like it to be a bit more peaceful.
That's just one example.Other people then can have anxiety about trying to get to the finish line and then some people have got to a finish line on one area and that might be financially because they've sold a company or they've
part taking in investors or whatever, and their challenge then with dealing with the rest of life is, you know, so I've striven for that piece and now I have my family piece to deal with, myself to listen to, so everywhere.
And then the biggest majority then are the average to above average who are on their path to promotion, to investing in businesses, to doing whatever, who just want to be bettering themselves.
And as you peel back the layers of the onion for all of us, you peel back all of the story we carry, which is the name in brackets for this podcast and how we carry that story.And in my experience, we're all a big bag of everything.
So when you say my generation, my generation are of my generation, when you ask me that, I think of my dad and his generation.It's gas.I think like, wow, that's my generation.What's my generation?What are they?Am I not the same generation as you?
No, I'm not.And Movember didn't exist. because you just get on with it.And the challenge for people of my age would be to say things like, is everything about emotion?Or is it all about feelings?
Because to your point, when you bring it up, are you bringing it all up?
Well, it reminds me of when we were working with a business and they were getting really negative glass door reviews and the fear in this workshop with all of their senior leaders, 30, 40 people in the room was, okay, there's these negative reviews and they might be fake, they might be nefarious, you know, but like, you know,
And I haven't really read the reviews, but like I've heard about them.And then when anybody spoke in the workshop, they said, yeah, like, I haven't really read them, but like, I've heard about them.
And it's like, well, clearly you've all read them at length and you're afraid to say that you've read them.And it reminds me of that, of kind of, there's something potentially wrong here, but if we speak about it, are we perpetuating it?
If we sweep it under the rug, like we have done for many generations, will it just go away or will we forget about it?We just got on with it.I think it's brilliant.It brought us to many ways.
It's human nature, though, to just get on with it.
And as you say that to me, you think of some of the scandals that have been in society, things like mother and baby homes and finding burial grounds for unwanted babies and all of this in a country that is fundamentally Christian and all that goes with that.
That was in my time. And we just got on with it, and people knew that there was places and we just got on with it.And you would think, my gosh, that couldn't happen today.
And yet we have asylum seekers living in, oh, for each accommodation for the last bloody 20 years in this country.And it's going to be the same kind of stuff again.And I'm saying that in the context of there's so much
of life happening that I don't see, and yet I think I'm pretty clued in, and yet I think I'm worldly wise, and yet I travel, and yet I do everything.And like, we're just getting on with it, for the most part.
And that's part of the challenge, that is part of what we do as humans.And then something uncovers and you go, holy God, surely that couldn't happen in our time.
But it does, and I'm not being bleak and saying that all tragedy is happening, it's just different levels of stuff happen that we... we almost get sanitized.
Yeah and I think part of having these conversations is my little way in having my little impact on my little corner of the world and saying I'd love for there to be less stigma when someone says they've been feeling sad for a period of time or they feel shame or they feel anguish and maybe if we can speak about these things maybe there's other things that we can speak about as well.
There you go. you know, that's speak about what you know.Well, this is something I've experienced, so I can speak about it.And, you know, now as a country with the Cillian Murphy movie we saw about the mother and child homes.
Now as a society, we're trying to, we're starting to tell those stories and like the abuse scandal in private schools, Blackrock College being one of them, we're starting to tell these stories and
To me, there seems something potentially inherently good about being able to speak about things that maybe we weren't able to speak about in the past.
Absolutely.Up and out.Yeah, exactly.Exactly.Well done.Brilliant.
Well, there you have it.Thank you for listening to this week's episode of the Essential Training Podcast with me, Brian Kingston, and my dad, Ian Kingston.
As dad says, hope it brought something up for you and gave you a chance to reflect on your own work and your own life.We'll see you again next Thursday.
And as always, we're open to any feedback or suggestions you might have, what you liked about it, what you think could be better. maybe some suggestions for guests, suggestions for topics as well.
So thanks a million for listening and we will see you or you'll hear us next week.
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