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Hey, Happier in Hollywood listeners, just a note that this episode was recorded a couple of days before the election.
Hi, and welcome to Happier in Hollywood, the podcast about how to be happier, healthier, saner, more creative, more successful, and more productive in a backbiting, superficial, chaotic, unpredictable, fundamentally insane world.
I'm Liz Craft, a TV writer and producer living in LA, and with me is my high school friend and writing partner, Sarah.
That's me, Sarah Fane.On this podcast, we talk about being writers in Hollywood, how we balance a career and friendship, and how to survive the war of attrition that is life in Los Angeles.
Today we're talking to Friend of the Podcast Carol Kirshner about the state of Hollywood and where we go from here.
Then in Take a Hike, Liz will talk about how attending our recent high school reunion made her realize that sometimes it's nice to surround yourself with people who don't do what you do.
We've also got a closet hack from a listener, and Sarah has a TV recommendation.But first, Sarah, just a quick update.Recently, we had our part one and part two of our fall listener questions episodes.
And one of the questions was about would I ever be on Survivor, because I love the show Survivor.And I was saying, well, I can't because I'm a type 1 diabetic.As much as I do love Survivor, won't be applying.And Charmin had this comment.
She said, podcast aha moment.Liz saying, I'd love to be on Survivor. plus answering a listener question about competition in Hollywood.Liz, you are a survivor in the war of attrition in Hollywood.No bananas for glucose required.
I just got such a kick out of that.Thank you for that comment.We are both, Sarah, survivors thus far of the war of attrition in Hollywood.We have not yet been kicked off the island or out of the city.
We have not been outwitted, outlasted, or outplayed.Not yet.We are still in it.Yes.In it to win it.
All right, Liz, it's time for From the Treadmill Desks Of, in which we talk about what's most pressing in our work psyches today.It's the state of Hollywood now and what the future might hold.So how's that for an enormous topic?
Yes.Luckily, we're not going to tackle it alone. Entertainment career coach Carol Kirshner is joining us to give us her thoughts.
We talked to Carol Kirshner back in episode 99 about her excellent book, Hollywood Game Plan, How to Land a Job in Film, TV, or Digital Entertainment for anyone aspiring to have a career in show business.
And recently, Carol posted a fantastic thread on Threads that we want to talk to her about.
Carol Kirshner is the director of the Writers Guild of America's Showrunner Training Program and the CBS Diversity Writers Mentoring Program, as well as an author and international speaker.
In her role as an entertainment career coach, she helps aspiring writers, producers, directors, and executives navigate Hollywood as they shatter barriers, break in, and thrive in the entertainment industry.
Okay, so before we talk to Carol, we wanted to read her thread, which we just found very thought-provoking.And Sarah, you're gonna read it because you have the better voice of the two of you.
OK, so Carol wrote, Times are hard for so many writers and other folks in Hollywood.I know plenty of folks who by all rights should be working, who are living off savings or taking on survival jobs.Two things on this.
First, if you are struggling right now, know you're not alone.If you're an emerging writer who can't get reads, if you know you're ready to staff but the staff writer-level jobs just aren't there now, you're not alone.
If you're a working writer who is currently not working, if you've had a ton of jobs for years and now can't get a showrunner meeting, you're not alone.This downturn is real.It's not you, your talent, your worth, your value.
It's external factors that are outside your control. Second, it will get better.I mean, I don't have a crystal ball and I'm not in the prediction business, but I've been in the game a while.I've seen huge seismic changes in the landscape before.
The shift to streaming and the strikes are a huge hit to the business, but there have been downturns before. In the past, the business has contracted, then expanded again.We'll likely never go back to a TV landscape that was like it was in 2017.
That was a bubble.But my experience and gut tells me the industry isn't collapsing.My best guess is that things are going to change, but work will slowly but surely ramp back up.
The business will look different, but it will still exist and there will still be work available. If you're currently not working, please do what you need to do to take care of yourself.
And writers, if you're called to this craft, may I gently suggest that you keep writing, even when things feel dark.Sometimes when things turn around, they turn around fast.Be ready.In other words, keep going.We'll all make it through together.
Welcome, Carol.Welcome.Hello.It's so great to be back.I love you guys.I'm so honored to be here.
Well, we're so happy to have you here, and we're so grateful to you for posting what we think is just an incredibly insightful and necessary post. You know, we keep hearing from other writers that they are experiencing exactly what you wrote about.
And we're all wondering, are we the only ones?Is it just me?Is it just me?Everyone in town feels this way.And it's comforting to just say, no, it's not you.
That's right.It is so not you.I've talked to very few people who go, everything is great.Okay, I haven't spoken to one person who said everything is great.And it's a really hard time.
And it's really hard for just about, I mean, maybe Sean does not have the autonomy, you know what I mean?And Ryan's doing okay.And Bill and Greg, they're all doing fine. but everybody else is having a hard time.It is in fact a very hard time.
I know I wrote this, but I've been doing this a hundred years and it is cyclical.It is all cyclical.It is contracted before.And as I said, I don't think it'll go back to the outrageous.I don't think we're gonna have 600 shows on the air again.
I just don't. but three 54 the way it was before.I think that's where we're going to be.
Well, I want to ask you, you know, we talk a lot about just, we say the business has changed.The business has changed.Hollywood is having problems right now, but can you sum up from your expert position how it's changed?What happened?
Yes.Well, all the financials, I don't know.That's, you know, I'm bad at math and I'm not, as entrenched in all of the financial realities that are happening.
But Wall Street is taking over much more of Hollywood and it depresses the fuck out of me that it's about shareholders.What happened is they lost so much money and spent so much money
that they have to become more responsible and they set people's expectation for it.
You can do a historical limited series and we will throw millions and millions and tens of millions of dollars at you and it'll be great and then it'll fail and they'll do it again. I think those days are over.
So what I'm seeing, and I know this for sure at CBS and everybody that I talk to, as I'm sure everybody you talk to feels this way, budgets are shrinking.Writers' room numbers are shrinking.We have pre-green light rooms.We have development rooms.
I think it's Ridiculous.I came up during, you know, in the broadcast model, which honestly, what I think we're going to have is the broadcast model, but you're going to pay for it and you're going to get commercials too.
I think that's what's going to happen.I think we're going to see procedurals.I just think it's going to be the same model, but we have to pay $17 a month for it.
It does seem like it's been heading that direction lately.I mean, I know I watch a lot of ads in streaming.
Yes! Now, we briefly mentioned this, but it's so hard right now for us because a lot of people say, hey, Liz and Sarah, what should we do now in this industry?Young writers who are just starting out.We have a really hard time going, yes, go for it.
And then we feel bad.Like, what is your advice for people who are just starting out now when it is such a difficult time?
What I tell people, it's funny, somebody just emailed me and said, you know, I hear it's tough in the business.I said, it is really tough in the business.So she's saying, don't do it.And I said, no, only you can answer that question.
The thing is, it is hard now.It will not always be hard. And if you have a specific voice and are able to make it universally appealing, they will want you.So what I tell people is, if there's nothing, you've heard this before.
I mean, we've all said this.If there's anything else you want to do, go do it.But if this is what you want to do, work on your craft, meet people.And we talked about this a little.I think where everybody,
emerging writers, people not, you know, pre-WGA, even mid-level writers, and even above, there's only two things over which you have control.And one is your craft, and the other one is how many people you're meeting.
You can always become a better writer, and you should be becoming a better writer, and you should have new samples every year. And then the other is you should be connecting to the people that you have.
I can't tell you the number of clients and people I've spoken to that have said, I met so many people.And then during the pandemic, or I just let go.And then we have to craft a strategy for getting back in touch with people because
That's where jobs will come from, is through people.
That is so true.And one good thing about the strike was I think a lot of people connected and a lot of pre-WGA writers walked the lines every day and did meet a lot of people.And so hopefully that is post-pandemic happening again.But you're right.
When we moved here, when we started out, meeting people was our number one goal.And that is absolutely the thing that ultimately got us working, was who we knew.
Absolutely.And you know, everybody, not everybody, but I think a lot of people who aren't repped think as soon as I get an agent or manager, that's the golden ticket.And then I don't have to do anything.
And as you guys know, most people get their own jobs and yet you're still paying that 10%, but they can submit you for work, but you're probably going to be getting your own jobs.
No, the funny thing is that takes me back to when we got our first agent and we were like, yay, what now?And she said, go meet showrunners.
We're like, how are we going to meet showrunners?Of course, now, all these years later, almost everyone we know is a showrunner.So eventually it happens.You just have to keep at it. So, Carol, another question for you.
Writers have a motto, which is, survive till 25.But we don't know why anything will be different in 2025.It's just something we say.And you said in your post, you don't have a crystal ball.
But if you were forced to say when you think things are going to turn around, are we talking sooner or later?
Okay, I don't have a crystal ball.People don't know where I live, so they can't come and get me.Exactly.But I think by the summer of next year, they're already starting to open up.People are making sales.People are getting staffed.They are.
But I heard something depressing, which it isn't survive till 25.It's stay in the mix until 26.Oh, I have not heard that one.
I have not heard that one.
Oh, my gosh.That was from a co-EP.But ignore that.I think by the middle of next year, things are going to be a hell of a lot better than they are right now.All right.
Well, that will give us all hope. Yes, I love hearing that.
Stay in the mix to 26 people.And one of the great things you said is to take care of yourself.Like during this time, self-care is really important.So what are you doing, Carol, to take care of yourself during this time?
Okay, I meditate.I'm very proud to say I've meditated for 20 minutes a day for the last 200 and 37 days.So that's like, wow.Wow.Congratulations.Thank you.And I have seen a palpable difference.I am not as anxious as I was.
When I have work to do, I just do one foot in front of the other and don't wring my hands.So that has really helped. watching bad reality shows has really helped.Just escaping, you know?And I went to Griffith Park yesterday to do an immersive event.
And just, you know, I always say creative in, creative out.If you wanna write, have a life, try.Immersive entertainment is the future.And for people, if you're not working in television, they need you in that space.
And there is work there, and there will be more work there. Not that you should leave television, I don't think you should, but if you are thinking about other things.
That's interesting.Immersive entertainment.I've never heard that expression before.
Yeah.You know, like, this isn't it.This is the most elementary of it, like a panic room. where you've heard about those, right?Panic rooms?No, escape rooms.It just gives me panic to think about being in one of those.
More and more, it's like with Stranger Things, they're extending the brand.There was a live event that you could go to as in a parking lot for Stranger Things, and they made a ton of money on that.
They are looking for ways to extend the brand through experiential, entertainment and that really will be something of the future.
I love that and that's a good tip for some of those writers coming up to look for different places to use your talent while the business is writing itself.
Yes, and it will right itself.It truly will.Mediocre, generic ideas will always get through.But if you have a unique voice and you have a particular perspective that is fresh, and I hate that because people say, what do you mean by fresh?
And it's a new take on something that is classic, probably, and is entertaining.There will be an appetite for that.There is an appetite for that.
Yeah.We always say, look at baby reindeer.You just never know.
OK, we could talk about that forever.But yes, it's such a personal story.Yes.
Yes.Well, Carol, again, we are so thankful for your words of encouragement shared with the business at large on Threads.We took them to heart, and we know many, many, many other people did as well.
And thank you for coming on and talking today with us.
It is my pleasure, and I'm so glad people found hope in that, because I really do believe you should have hope.I think there's reason for optimism.
Excellent.Well, we'll check back in with you after when it's all better.We'll look back and reflect on this time.Great.
Next up, Liz had an insight at a recent high school reunion, but first, this break. So Liz, I'm sure you've noticed the days are shorter, but our to-do lists are not.Power through your busy days with Factor's No Prep, No Mess Meals.
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Okay, Sarah, we are back with Take a Hike, in which we discuss mental, physical, spiritual, emotional health.I call this mental health, and it's inspired by my recent trip to Kansas City, where I went to our high school reunion.
Yes, you realize that it's good to spend time around people who don't do what you do.
Yes.So, you know, obviously Kansas City is not a hub for the entertainment business, especially the TV business.
And so I was with all of our former classmates who have wonderful jobs, lawyers, doctors, restaurant owners, someone who grows flowers and sells them to florists. people who work at various companies, doing many, many things.
But nobody in my midst was a TV writer.And Sarah, it was just glorious to spend a few days with people who just don't do what I do.It was a break from the constant mental stress of the business.
You know, we just talked to Carol about how it is very stressful in Hollywood right now. And yes, people have read articles about it.Maybe a couple people might even ask me about it.But we're not all sharing it.It's not their world.
It's not their concern.And so I can just put it to the side, enjoy myself, enjoy people, and not be thinking about that.
Yes.And, of course, this is sort of one of the reasons I moved to Ohio, though obviously there are a lot of people in showbiz who are here.But, you know, this weekend, this particularly hit home for me because I was at Violet's swim meet in Ventura.
And it's just like swimmers at a swim meet with teams from all over.But then there was a dad, who I know from L.A., who's a TV writer.And, of course, there we were talking about the state of the business.And it was like, ugh.
this again, you know, like this is supposed to be my free zone.So being able to be in that kind of free zone for a few days must have been so great.
It was.And Sarah, yeah, I love you.I love spending time with you.Love our Benihana lunches.But there is just no way you and I are going to get together and not talk about the business.
It is not, as Violet points out, the second the two of us are together, she's like, Buzz, you're talking about business again.Yeah.Which I love.I mean, we love to talk shop.It's my favorite thing in the world.But sometimes you want to take a break.
I felt rejuvenated from it.Yes, part of that is just connecting with old friends, which is, as I've discussed many times on the pod, one of my favorite things in the world to do
is to just connect with people, bond with people, but also it was just nice to have a break. So my suggestion is make a point of putting yourself in situations where you're not thinking about it.Now, maybe that's going to a movie.
Well, maybe not a movie, because you're automatically at a movie thinking about the business, but doing something where you're not surrounded by it so that you can just refresh.
It'll always be there for you to talk about, worry about, and analyze, but sometimes you need to take a break.Yes. All right, Sarah, coming up, we have a Hollywood hack from a listener.But first, this break.
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Okay, Liz, we're back with this week's Hollywood hack, which comes from Lindsay in our Facebook group.She wrote, after listening to today's Happier episode, I realized I have a closet hack.Turn all of your hangers backwards.
Then, once you've worn something, put the hanger back the right way around.After six months or when a season ends, any hanger that is still backwards shows you what you haven't worn.Then you can easily decide what's worth keeping or donating.
Okay, this is so smart.Liz, you said you had heard this before somewhere.I never have.It was completely eye-opening to me.
Yes, it is a great way to just organize yourself to figure out what you want to keep and what you don't want to keep.
There are many people who feel strongly that if you haven't worn something for six months or a year, you should get rid of it, donate it to someone who will use it.I find that difficult.
I am one of those people who will say, well, I haven't worn this in five years, but it may come in handy.But it would still be useful just as a way to keep track.
Yeah, and I think for certain items of clothing, what you're saying is 100 percent true.Like, a really nice pair of pants that you're just not going to wear necessarily everywhere.There might not be an occasion for.
But just like the T-shirt that you kind of like but don't, and maybe it fits and maybe it doesn't. that kind of stuff or a blouse that's like maybe looked great five years ago, doesn't look so great now.It's good to have that really visible reminder.
Yes, I think blouses are a perfect item for this because they're always on hangers and they can pile up if you don't keep them limited in your closet. Always looking for ways to improve closet organization.It is definitely one of my weak points.
So thank you, Lindsay, for that. Okay, Sarah, finally, you are up this week with a recommendation.Every week, one of us recommends something we love, TV show, movie, book, podcast, whatever it may be, and you have a TV recommendation.
Yes, this week I am recommending The Great British Bake Off on Netflix. It's season 12.You probably have seen this show at some point, and maybe you tuned in and then tuned out.I have to tell you, this season is so freaking good.
Like, the bakers are, first of all, like, at a level that they're usually not at.Like, across the board, there are some really, really excellent bakers.And the characters, like, it just has such wonderful characters this season.
I know they're human beings, but they're on TV, so I'm calling them characters.And my favorite of literally every season of the entire British Bake Off series is Nellie.She's on this season.
She's just this delightful, exuberant, funny, expressive woman.I just love watching her.But there are so many great people on this season.
Well, what's funny, Sarah, is one of my favorite podcasts, Drama Darlings, which is a breakdown show of housewives and other shows, one of the women who often co-hosts the show was wearing a Nelly costume on Halloween. She loves Nellie.
She was wearing a beret.Apparently Nellie favors a beret.So I was like, okay, I must watch this show.If Sarah's loving it so much and Nellie is costume worthy, I've got to check it out.
So I'm going to join you in watching Great British Bake Off this season on Netflix.
It's the one way I can get Violet to sit and watch TV with me.If she hears it, she'll be like, oh, well now you have to start the episode over again.And I'm always like, no problem.Happy to watch it again.
Well, we all need a little Great British Bake Off in our lives.We do.And that's it for this episode of Happier in Hollywood.We love hearing from you.Email us or send us a voice memo to happierinhollywood at gmail.com.
Thank you for listening and please do follow us if you haven't already.
Thank you to our guest, Carol Kirshner.Follow Carol on threads at kirshner.carol.Thanks to our executive producer, Chuck Reed, and thanks to everyone at Sankola Sound.You can follow them on Instagram, at Sankola Sound.
Thanks to everyone at Odyssey, and as always, thank you to Gretchen Rubin.Happier in Hollywood is part of the Onward Project. Listen to the other Onward Project podcasts, Happier with Gretchen Rubin, and Side Hustle School.Get in touch.
I'm on Instagram and threads, at Liz Craft, and Sarah is at S Fane.We also have a Facebook group.Search for Happier in Hollywood on Facebook to join the conversation.Until next week, I'm Sarah Fane.And I'm Liz Craft.Thanks for joining us.
It's a fun job.And we enjoy it. Sarah, the reunion was at Joe Marie's house, and it is so beautiful.And she put on the most amazing spread.It's nice to have, you know, restaurant owners in our class.
Indeed.Oh, now I'm getting hungry.Her food is so good.From the Onward Project.
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