I've prepared a song so you can sing along with my special guest, R2.You like to sing and dance, and this podcast by chance explores musicals for you. Hello, everyone.
Welcome back to another episode of Life's But A Song, a podcast that likes to live in the land of musicals.I'm your host, John, and with me today is our I Love Lucy historian, I guess we'll give him that title.It's Michael Valvo, everyone.Woo!Yay!
I'm so happy to be back.Hi, John.Hi, Mike.Oh, my God.We're here today to talk more about Lucy, obviously.Oh, of course. We're here to talk about the season five episode 17 titled Lucy Goes to Scotland.Yes.
It was written by Jess Oppenheimer, Madeline Pugh, Bob Carroll Jr., Bob Schiller, and Bob Weisskamp.
Okay, so because you are more knowledgeable about all things Lucy, I'm going to defer to you for this, because I couldn't find anything on the interwebs.Do you know who wrote the songs?
I do.Larry Ornstein wrote the lyrics, and he is actually, in the episode, he is the mayor of Kildunin. And he wrote the lyrics.And music is written by Elliot Daniel.
But uncredited was also Wilbur Hatch, who was the conductor of the Desi Arnaz Orchestra, and Marco Rizzo, who was Desi's pianist.They also wrote music as well.So but only Elliot was he was the only one that got credit for whatever reason.
But Larry Orenstein, he didn't even get credit in the episode, like, you know, when they do the closing credit sort of thing. Sometimes they would do a voiceover.You know, they would say like, who starred is what that sort of thing.
But this episode got no voiceover talking about any of the supporting cast, or that he wrote the lyrics.It's just kind of like, you would never know.
Right?I mean, we were it was also the Wild West. of television back in the 50s.
Oh, listen, yeah, you know, where the credits were like 10 seconds long and they said like, who wrote it, who produced it, who directed, and maybe three other things.And like, who was the guest star?Right, if you were lucky.
Because, you know, fun fact, it wasn't until season six, so not even this episode or this season, that Lucy's hairstylist, Irma Kuzli, got credit for doing Lucy's hair and she
fought Desi to get credit, and she was the first hairdresser or hairstylist, however the verbiage was in the day, to get credit for their work.Lucy fought for this.No, Irma, her hairstylist, fought for it.
She was like, all my work is going unnoticed.Because she came from the movies with Lucy, and she was like, why can't I get credit on television?So it's because of her that hairstylists get credit on television.Go Irma. I know.Irma was very sweet.
I got to meet her a few times, but very nice lady.And I did actually get to meet Larry Orenstein, who was in this episode and did the lyrics.
So it was directed by James V. Kern, premiered on February 20th, 1956.And according to IMDb, Lucy wants to investigate her family history in Scotland.So It's been a minute since I've seen the series, right?
I mean, I grew up watching it because it was on Nick at Night and all that.Oh, yeah.Is this one of their European episodes?
Yes.Yes, this is one of the European episodes.And all of the European episodes took place in season five.And the thing that's interesting about this episode is that the whole thing, really, it's a dream sequence.
Like they don't actually go to Scotland.Kildunin, the place that they visit in the dream, does exist.But Ricky says to Lucy at the beginning of the episode, like, we're not going to Scotland.It's huge.
How do you expect to find, you know, your McGillicuddy ancestors?And Lucy says, I just have to know exactly where they are. My great, great, great, great grandfather, Angus McGillicuddy, is from the town of Kildunin.
And so then they go to bed and that's, and the whole thing is a dream.
Red comes in with that dragon puppet thing, and that's, it's very smart, I will say, how this episode is written, because, now I'm not a historian of TV, I'm not gonna claim anything, but, and this is after the operetta, correct?
Yes, but much after.Yeah, yeah, this the operetta was in season two at the very beginning.
Okay, so the operetta, I think we claim that it was potentially like the first musical episode of a TV show.
Yes, as to my knowledge, in terms of like a scripted series, because you know, there are a variety shows in the day that kind of thing.But of course, yes, scripted sitcom. Yes, the Operetta, I believe, was definitely the first.
And, you know, very recently, we had Lucy Arnaz at 54 Below.For those of you who don't know, I work at 54 Below as well.
And Lucy said in her show, she said, you know, we were doing, you know, and like, here's Lucy, the Lucy show, and this, she said, we were doing Glee before Glee.And I kind of thought about that.I was like, yeah, you know, without episodes like this,
we would never know that this could even be an idea for television.Or possible, yeah.
Which also, unlike Glee and the other shows, Lucy's singing live.They are singing, like you can tell that the piano is off camera.
Oh yeah, yeah.It's funny because even there's an interview with Larry Ornstein and he said, I was kind of surprised.He said, there's just a beat up stand up piano just to stage right of it all.
And he said, when he watched the episode back, you know, this obviously he's not with us anymore, but it would drive him crazy because he could hear that piano.
And he's like, it always sounded so bad to me, but they didn't, but everything was played live.They sang live.There were no tracks.There was nothing.
No, the only track I feel like is the opening, the theme song.
Yes, right, the very, very opening theme song.
That is the only thing that is tracked, because in this episode, I feel like there were other instruments, if I remember correctly.I literally just watched it, and I'm blacking it out.
Yeah, no, there are other instruments.And you do see a live bagpipe. Live bagpipe player.There we go.That's a mouthful.That is playing on set and is within the townsfolk.
So that, which is the only time that they had a bagpipe instrumentalist in the show, but yes.So they did bring someone in special for that.
So, okay.Getting into the episode itself.It starts where they're coming from a show.We don't know what show it is, right?Correct.No, we have no idea.
And they're talking about the plot or the ending of it, and then Lucy wants to find her heritage, which I'm not sure if that... Was that brought up before?
That she was Scottish?No, this, if that's what you mean, this is the first time, I mean, her maiden name was used throughout the series and was very much a joke, especially for Desi Arnaz with his Cuban accent and how he would say, McGillicuddy.
And that was always, you know, a funny bit, but it was never brought up that she had Scottish heritage, but Lucille Ball herself did have Scottish heritage and she often liked to use her own life within the character.So that does go hand in hand.
Okay, but it's, so it's never brought up before that Lucy wants to find her ancestors or her... No, it was just a plot point written for this episode, yeah.Okay, and so after an argument between Lucy and Desi, Desi, Ricky.
No, you're fine, don't worry.About how Lucy wants to go to Scotland, she has a dream and she dreams a musical, everyone. yes oh oh i love it it's cute it's very fun the set's gorgeous you know the only thing i really question is go for it okay
you and I, and hopefully some people who are listening, know Lucille Ball is very talented as a singer and a dancer.She was a dancer, right?Like that was her.
She was a dancer.She started as a showgirl in the 30s and that's how she got her start, yes.And I get it.
We're in a sitcom.She's playing a character that's like a hyper-realized version of her.But I'm gonna critique the writing for a hot second.Go for it.Of this episode.Sure. She couldn't dream herself to be talented?
You know, right.But I will say that, no, it does make sense with what you're saying.But the reason why they know that she's a McGillicuddy, because she comes in and she says, I'm a McGillicuddy.But they're like, well, how do we know?
And it's because she's an awful dancer.That's how they're able to verify that she is a McGillicuddy.
Right.But we could have had a little bit of fun there just to show a more more of a technique from Lucy, because you didn't you would you didn't really see the dance technique very often.And I love Lucy.
I mean, you did maybe when she was like dancing with Van Johnson in the previous season.And in and, you know, in later series, she did dance more because the choreographer for this is Jack Baker.And he did choreograph the sword dance and everything.
And everything you see that she does, though, even her the poor dancing that she does, it's all choreographed.
Oh, 100%, that I believe.
100% choreographed, yeah.
But later when she sings, I'm in love with the dragon's dinner, or yeah, when she's part of that song with Ricky, I'm like, you couldn't give her more?She couldn't sing better than the Lucy character?
And you know, it's funny you say that, too, because In an interview, Larry Orenstein said Lucy actually has quite the voice.
But however, there was just there was really no time for him to help her with the music to really work on it and try to actually get more, like try to write more for her or a vocal that the time just wasn't there.
And he said a lot of this episode musically. is quite under rehearsed.
And that that was always a kind of a frustrating thing from which I get, especially if you're the one writing the lyrics, you, you know, it's, you want your work to be good, you know, but yeah, that was kind of thing with Lucy, he said she actually had a great, a great voice, and also had a great theatrical sense for delivery.
But it just couldn't, they couldn't expand on it like the way that he would have liked to.
Because yeah, and I understand that like they were rushed and speaking of glee, like they were probably, you know, the writers were writing while they were rehearsing, like the writers were writing three episodes ahead while they were rehearsing the current episode.
And it's a sitcom that was live?
Right?Yeah, they filmed on Thursdays.So really, the whole thing was a four day turnaround.Monday would be the table read.And by the time Thursday was there, it was showtime.And this is actually the first episode that Lucy Arnaz attended.
And she was four years old.And there are home movies of this episode from Desi Arnaz's personal camera.And you could see everything in color.This is the only time in the entire time that there's actual color footage of the set.
I read that on the IMDb Trivia.
Now, the IMDb Trivia is all over the place.Yes, it is.Because they like to point out plot points in the trivia.And I'm like, this is a plot point, not a fun fact.
Right, right.I don't know who does that or I have no idea.No idea.But you can see this footage.I think It's on the Complete Series DVD set.You can watch it.
And they use that episode to help colorize the show, since it was, you know, they didn't have to guess.It's right there.And I think you might even be able to find it on YouTube, I think.Okay.So, if anyone would like to look.
So, within the 26 minutes or something that the show is, uh there's five songs which is a lot five original songs yes yeah and really like the majority of the episode is the dream yes so we're in this killed dune
That is not a real, it's a real place, but it's not a real place.
Exactly.Like it's there.Right.It's there.And also it's, this is definitely a spoof on Brigadoon, which had come out pretty recently, the movie version, because of course the stage version was from the forties.
But so this was definitely playing on Brigadoon as well.So, you know, which, you know, it's kind of fun, like, oh, this is a little bit of a parody almost. And I like that it's that.
Obviously they're doing like the Wizard of Oz-ness of it all where it's like, oh, and you're there and you're there and- It does, yes.Red and Ethel are the dragon and- Right.
He's the love interest and Lucy, well, apparently she's single in the dream.
I know, right?Is it kind of funny?And then, you know, his ancestors, you know, cause she says that, you know, she's related to Angus McGillicuddy and he says, and this is said earlier in the episode that his ancestors are Enchilada Ricardo.
Which I was, when she first said that, I was like a little like, okay, my 2024 brain is a little meh, but then like, it is the joke.
It is the joke, right.And it's, you know, this was 1955, like 1956, like it's, yeah, like that, you could say that then and it's, you know, but we can at least look at it now and we can chuckle at it for being what it was at the time.
right because because he they do everything that said prior to the dream pays off in the dream so like when she set up that joke before bed and it felt a little uneasy but he spikes it in the dream and he's like yes enchilada and they came over from the spanish armada and all that i'm like okay i guess i can give it a pass yeah but it's still like
It's a slow burner.It really is a slow burner of a joke, but it's there.It's there.
I was reading, by the way, on the IMDb Trivia, that Larry Orenstein, when he auditioned the Tisnay Brow Bright Knight to Desi, Desi told him that he had to play the mayor because he's like, who else is going to sing this?
exactly yeah and so and and he did it and he did it so well and i mean that that scottish accent is fabulous that he does in that it's so desi's right yes you're right at the end um desi arnaz's scottish accent in the show is great yes you are 100 correct it is great yeah and
And Larry too, you know, Larry, I'm kidding.Yes.No, I know.No, I know.But it's it is funny, though.Like, I mean, and, you know, in the episode, too, like you have the Scottish accent, you have Desi's Cuban accent.
And then at one point, Lucy even pulls out a little bit of a Southern accent that she does for the sake of a joke.So I'm like, we have three accents in this dream, you know, like that's kind of wild.And then and then
Looking at the makeup that's done to Vivian Vance and William Frawley, I'm like, were they inspired by Kabuki or something?
I don't know what it is, because it's really interesting.Because if you think about it, so here, you know, there's two-headed dragon in Scotland, right?
But the toy that Fred brings Lucy for little Ricky at the beginning of the episode, it's a Chinese toy dragon, which I always... Are they? Where are they in... In the beginning.
Where in the world are they at this point of the season?
Right.It's not state... I mean, as far as we know with this episode, it's just Europe because they use the same hotel set even into when we get to the famous grape stomping episode, Lucy's Italian movie.And they're in Italy.So the...
it yeah it's kind of like it doesn't we don't get a lot from that from that hotel set it just kind of is what it is and then all we all we're really given is that they are not in scotland correct we are they're not in scotland they're not in scotland they're not going to scotland so they are somewhere
somewhere in Europe and they just saw a musical or something.
Right, exactly.And then, you know, and then Fred's got the toy dragon, which is Chinese.And it's kind of similar.You know how you were just talking about the slow burning joke here with the Spanish Armada and a lot of Ricardo and all of that.
The same thing happens with this is that they make a joke about how
Red as the dragon can't digest Chinese food when they want to cook a McGillicuddy because he suggests to make a, you know, Chinese food out of the McGillicuddy and Ethel says, no, you can't digest it.
It's been we got 30 years, you know, it's kind of funny how that joke kind of comes back as well.
As a viewer of it in 2024, I'm like, I mean, a day, an hour, you know.I guess in dragon lore, it'd be a day.But for me, I'm hungry an hour afterwards.Totally.
So, I have to say the songs were, so Larry Orenstein did not write for the operetta, correct?
No, he did not.This was the only, no, I take that back.He did this episode and then in the next season he wrote, he wrote the song for Lucy and Bob Hope for that episode. Oh my gosh, I'm blanking on the name of it.But it's it's a song about baseball.
Okay, well, so I'm back to write that one.
I was Well, my point was that like the music in this sounds so different than the opera.
Yes, this one sounds more legit musical theater.Like it's not Like, with the operetta, the lyrics are a joke.The music is a joke.
This one is really, you know, if you put this on paper, you could give this to someone and be like, hey, let's learn this song.And it's right there.
Yeah, and it felt like, I mean, obviously making a show, a TV show, you have to be very serious about everything.You know, you want to find the best people who are at the top of their game and all that.
I feel like they did with this, like the ensemble were great, the dancers, the sword dancers prior to Lucy were fabulous, except I read that one of them actually kicked their swords, but I didn't notice that at first.
Yeah, you really gotta look for it, but it is there, but it's not... terrible by any means, you know what I mean?
But it's- Well, because they only had the one take, really.
Just the one take.And to your point too, some of the names that were in this ensemble, there were two people that were from Singing in the Rain that did this movie.Betty Noyes, who was actually Debbie Reynolds.
She did the vocals for Debbie Reynolds for Singing in the Rain.She also sang Baby Be Mine from Dumbo. so she's like her voice is quite well known baby mine baby mine sorry yes oh Yeah, yeah, she's in this episode.
And- Why are you making me cry, Michael Valvo?
I know, I know, I'm like, here I brought it to Dumbo and everybody cries at Dumbo.But that was her voice.And Nora Zimmer, she was a, she did background vocals and she was in the ensemble of the movie.And then some other names as well.
I mean, cause let's just give them credit because the episode doesn't, cause it's 1956.Their names are John Gustafson, John Hind,
Robert Hamlin, Ann Walker, Dick Byron, and Chuck Shroud all did musicals of like the MGM, like the 1940s, like they all worked during that era.
So some of these people could very well even have been in Brigadoon, but that's, yeah, these are the people.They could have been on Broadway, too.Yeah, exactly.But these are the people that made up the town of Kildoonan, and they're fabulous.
Yeah, and what I really liked about this is that I don't know if this was intentional or if it was budgetary, but it felt like a theatrical set.
Yes, I think it does look theatrical, it feels theatrical, just even by the style of how they painted it.
There's one point where Ricky goes down on like a stoop, if you will, and the back of his head hits the wall, and you can see the wall slightly move a little bit, which I think is quite funny.
But that sort of thing happened too with the Operetta set, because it was chaos, it was wild.So I think,
to make it feel different than an actual, like the European set or the apartment set, they made it look more theatrical just to play it up more, I feel.
Right, and obviously, like we said, they were setting up things earlier before the dream, before she fell asleep and all that.So they saw the musical and I guess that was inspired by this or or it was just, hey, we're doing a musical episode.
Yeah, I think all of the above, to be honest, all the above.Why not?Because, you know, they hadn't done it. in quite a while, like to this extent.
I mean, music was always a central theme to this series, especially because of Desi Arnaz, and it was a way for him to showcase his talents as well.
So music had always been a thing, but more often than not, it was always done on the Tropicana or Babalu set.
So to do something different and really go out of their comfort zone and create and have fun, this must have been a hell of a week to work on.
just painting those, painting that set furiously.
Well, and that's, and the interesting thing though is that, well, so you said that they had the one hotel room for all of Europe that they probably just restyled and decorated differently and set the camera up a little different.
So you have that set piece.You have the town square, which is the majority of the episode, if you really like boil it down.And then we have the dragon's cave.
And and within the hotel room, there are there's like the living room area and then the bedroom.
So, yeah, it's pretty.Yeah.
So we have four in that bedroom, by the way.I love that. I love that they are in twin beds always.
I know they're always in twin beds, but I love, I will say with this episode, how they meet in the corner like that.
I thought that was very interesting and very different.
It was very different.And I think for the whole purpose of it being, I think it's a great camera shot too, because since the whole thing is a dream, so just to like really be able to focus on like, you know,
the heads, if you will, which I know sounds really weird, but to be able to like showcase that and like fade into it and come out of it, I thought was quite clever.
And it's, and it's a easier setup for them for the camera, I guess.So this way their heads are, are together and they're not like, they don't have to sit.
Cause usually during this time when they were, when they would go have like a bedroom scene, they would be,
uh next to each other but like they would have the actors would have to sit up in bed so we can see them right so in this shot they're lying down and we don't have they don't have to sit up because they are Yeah, they're meeting in a corner.
And I think it's a fascinating design, and I doubt we see this again in any other set piece.
I don't, yeah, no, I'm 99.9% sure we never see the beds set up in such a way again.This is it.Yeah.
And then, so we get into the dream where they're singing and all that.Fred and Ethel as the dragon.Oh my god.That costume looked both cheap and very well made.
I don't it's because yeah it had I need to be to construct that in like and it's a big costume but I think huge costume but I think even in black and white I feel like it's the fabric because when the light hits it it has a shine to it and I can't I and that might be why
It looks kind of like it looks cheap.I'm not sure, but I feel like it's because how the light hits the fabric.I could be wrong, but it does.If you look at it, you can see it.
But also knowing that they had three days, basically, unless they knew beforehand that they were doing this.
I had to gather they probably had some because you know they probably would you know in terms of getting everyone kilts and things like this and he's like sort of purity costumes and all of that they probably had. I would hope, God, I'd hope.
I would hope they have a good week to really put this together.Now, obviously, the dragon was built from scratch, but this is a lot of things they would never wear.
Everything else they probably borrowed from the Brigadoon set.
Could have easily.Yeah, they could have done a studio loan.Yeah, because I don't know, in terms of Desilu history at that point, had they have done
anything variety-wise, certainly not scripted, I don't think, where they would have just had all of this Scottish garb lying around and been like, here we go.I don't think so.
So, to take a step back away from the episode, Lucille Ball and Desi Arnaz, where are we in their relationship at this point?Are they fighting?Are they okay with each other?Do you know?
Yeah, I mean, They're doing okay at this point.I would say okay.
The thing is, what's going on around this time though, is Desi's focus around it, you know, especially like late seasons five, six of I Love Lucy and definitely during Lucy Desi comedy hour.
He isn't as present as needed to be Ricky Ricardo because he is much more Desi Arnaz, the owner of the studio executive producer. So that's it's around this time when that kicks off.And that's what I mean, really puts a strain on the marriage.
So this is kind of there are things happening at this point.However, it's it's still workable, if you will, because they had just finished doing.
maybe like six months prior to this airing, they would have just, because this aired, I mean, this aired February, so no, actually it'd be a little further back, but in the summer of 55, that's when they filmed Forever Darling, which was like, not a sequel per se, but that was like the follow-up, if you will, to the Long Long trailer, which was a huge, huge hit.
And it's actually after this episode, they do a promo that Forever Darling is going to be having its world premiere in Jamestown, New York, which is Lucy's hometown.
So they are doing a lot together at this time, but the demands of the studio are really starting to wear on Desi.And you can definitely see it in this episode.
Oh yeah, that's why I asked, because during their argument, it felt a little real.
Yeah, it feels a little real, but also when the two of them duet, I'm in love with a dragon's dinner,
I don't know, I have not found, but just looking, a lot of Desi's focus is off, is not looking at Lucy at all, and I think he's having to read off some of his lyrics.
And I don't think he's fully off book with the music, because when it came to his own stuff, you know, he could do Babalu, The Lady in Red, you know, all these songs, like The Back of His Hand, because it was his music. this was not his music.
So I don't think he was as memorized with this.So if you go back and look, you can see him just slightly looking off.So I think, I think that's all part of this.
Yeah.I think you said the same as, as well during the operetta, where because of the fast turnaround that they have, It's like SNL.
It's hard.It is hard.It's hard.Like, you know, Lucy started to use cue cards and things like that later in her career.
And it was when she was in charge of like Lucille Ball Productions and she was more and then she owned Desilu Studios, you know, because she bought him out after the divorce.But during I Love Lucy and the comedy hour, she did not use cue cards.
She was fully memorized because it was like that.Her job was to be Lucy.She didn't have a hand in the rest of it so much.
man yeah yeah she was vice president but you know she didn't have to go to the board meetings and do all the stuff that he was doing but she did it all That woman, man.Yeah.
I don't think people talk about her enough.
No, I don't think they do either.Like, I know just recently we had Star Trek Day.And, you know, whether people know it or not, the reason why Star Trek exists is because of Lucille Hall.Yeah.And some people know that.
I mean, like Star Trekies know that.But to the regular maybe a TV watcher, you know, like the casual viewer of casual viewer.Yeah, they like would not know that like that whole phenomenon would not exist if it wasn't for her.
Same with Mission Impossible.That's another one.Yeah, like you just I didn't know about Mission Impossible.Yeah, she gave the green light for Mission Impossible.It was a Desilu series. Wow.Yeah.
Yeah.We wouldn't have.We wouldn't have Tom Cruise's action movie.No.No.Also, what does he have?
Six of them now?I don't know.We wouldn't have them.Eight.Eight.Is it eight?Eight.Yeah. Things I didn't know the world needed.Seven more of those movies.But here we are.Yeah.
So back to the episode.Yes.
I know.It's fun.So yeah.The costumes were great.I thoroughly enjoyed the dragon costume, because it was just something different, you know?It was... Very different.Fantasy, which you didn't see a lot of.It was fantasy.It was also, like, kitsch.Yeah.
But it was also, like, larger than life.Because if you think about it, Vivian Vance and William Frawley are two very different body types.Yes.So they had to...
figure that out.Yeah, they had to figure that out.And, you know, and of course, they were not the best of friends.You know, they they could work together, but they did not care for each other.
They were they were not best friends since the beginning, right from the beginning.
They did not get along. Did not get along and it all started because Vivian said that man is old enough to be my father and he overheard her say that and that's it.That was it.And you know, and that was towards the very beginning.So there.
There are rumors with this episode that what William Frawley would do is because they'd be trapped in that costume under the lights, you know, doing everything that they need to do, even in like rehearsal and whatnot, to get used to it.And he would
save up his farts and he would fart in the costume and under the light and like basically gas her if you will but that's a weep which is a horrible thing i don't but of course it gave him great enjoyment but is this true it's kind of like it's just it's one of those rumors you know we don't know but
It's like, OK, how petty do you want to be versus professional?Oh, yeah.
And listen, they would do it like even after I Love Lucy ended and they were filming The Lucy Show because Lucy and Vivian were doing The Lucy Show and William Frawley was doing My Three Sons, which all filmed on the Desilu lot.
And William Frawley would have the three boys, the three sons, Stanley and Barry Livingston, I can't remember the other one, and they would play tricks on Vivian Vance, and they weren't even working on the same show!
Like, this literally went on forever.Holy shit.And I know- It went on for a long time, this feud.
And I believe last time you were on, we did touch upon, like, how Vivian Vance was told to gain weight.
Yeah, she, they wanted her to be, you know, frumpy, but she, towards the end though, you know, especially in the later seasons, you can see that they've, cause she had to fight for it, you know, to glam her up a little bit.
And there are moments when Vivian's got some really cute hair.Some of her Connecticut costumes are really cute.
Like the, like, like the dungarees and like, you know, the tied up plaid shirts, like she got, she was able to get more feminized as the show went along.I mean, she's also wearing
nice dresses throughout their little, not as nice as Lucy's, but they're still very flattering for her and everything.I don't remember her. her costume prior to the, the dragon.
Right.No, I think if anything, if I, because she is, you know, they're, they're in that hotel room real quick.They give her the toy, they leave.
I think if anything, she's just in her, I think it's just like, like, like her evening coat with whatever dress on underneath.I don't even think we see it.It's just her coat.
And, you know, I doubt she's wearing anything underneath then because that to get it.I mean,
This is live.It was one take.I mean, very, very rarely did they ever have to go back and do a retake.And if they did, they do it without the audience.But yeah, to get into that makeup.
Get into the makeup, get into the costume.And to fight for the two of them, they probably were fighting the whole time getting into the costume, knowing what we know.
I'm sure they were.I'm sure they were.And even with the creation of the song, pardon me, two heads are nay better than one.
they had a very hard time writing that song for the two of them because they could not figure out a key really to for it to work for both of their voice types so a lot of times you don't hear like vivian at the end of it has a little bit with like the lullaby sequence but she has to sing much lower to match him because he you know after years and years of abuse with his own voice
he can't go higher with his voice.It's just that gruff sound, like he can't do it.
So that's why a lot of that song is written more limerick-y, and it's more to her, but it's more limerick-y than it is like, you know, like, I'm In Love With A Dragon's Dinner has a really fun, catchy tune.
This one doesn't as much because they just couldn't write it that way.It had to work for both of them, but Vivian still kind of suffered a little bit, but got to make up for it by the end of it.
With the lullaby portion.
With the lullaby, yeah, exactly. Um, I don't know where to go.Do you have anything else you want?
You know, this, I will say this with this episode overall, like in, like the Lucy fandom, if you will, a lot of the fans are kind of divided on this episode.Fans either love it. or they don't like it.
It goes both ways because a lot of people compare it.And I understand to the operetta because it is such a like that, like the operetta is a comedic masterpiece of an episode.It really is.But they're so different.It's apples to oranges.
I don't think it's very fair to compare the two because I love this episode because it feels a little more legit.You know, it's the lyrics are more tongue in cheek.It's it's not so
It's silly in its own way, but it's silly not so much because of a visual joke, in a way.I mean, you have the two-headed dragon, of course, but it's not the Wednesday Afternoons Fine Arts League putting on a show.This is a dream sequence.
You have professional dancers.It's a production.So for what this episode accomplished, I think it's fantastic.
Which is also back to my argument earlier about, I get it that Lucy, the character, is not talented.She has big aspirations and dreams and all that.But we're in a dream.This could have been the one time.This could have been where you showcase.
And we could have kept the dancing, but give her the song, at least.
Yeah.And for all we know, too, Maybe there was a chance.Maybe, you know, in my research with this episode and what I know, there wasn't any sort of conversation to be had where Lucy turned down the idea.
You know, maybe they did bring it to her and she was like, nope, I'm good.Who knows?You know, because she had.
you know, like she had both the children, so maybe trying to juggle being a mother and this while Desi was doing that, you know, with running, who knows?Maybe that, you know, there's, who knows?Anything could have happened.
And like you said, he had to use the cue cards for his song.I really think so.I really do.And who knows when that song was, like, finished. Yeah, and- I'm in love with the dragon's dinner.Right.
Who knows, that could have been finished the night before and that's why it's all on cue cards.
Right, we have no idea.It's, you know, I think that song has such a catchy tune.I think that's probably my favorite of them because it's just, I'm in love with the dragon's dinner.Like it's just, it's very, you know, you just- Bouncy, yeah.
Yes, it's bouncy, you know, but I think, You know, the the broad broad night is the staging and Larry Ornstein with his delivery.I was like, OK, this is like musical theater.Like, it's so good.And they actually oh, oh, my gosh.Fun fact.
Forgot to tell you about this.
that they wanted this to they there was an idea a talk of actually making this a colorized episode back in the day and doing a special because this was going up against Peter Pan, which was also in color when they did that originally.
But because this was but because this was filmed in front of a live audience to do film on color for television, not like the
the kinescope, like really cheap kind of coloring that they did back in the day, you just, this was too expensive to fully do it the way they wanted to.
So that's why this stays in black and white, but this was supposed to give some competition to Peter Pan, believe it or not.
But I mean, Lucy did it first anyway with the operetta.
Yeah, I know.Did it first.But then it was 1952, so there definitely would have been anything.There wouldn't have been talk of doing color at that point, and especially on film.
Because this whole series was filmed, and that's why they did it in California.
Oh, I meant doing the musical.
Oh, just doing the music.Oh, just the idea.Yes, I see what you're saying.Sorry, I thought you meant colorizing back then.
No.But also, color for television didn't really happen until the 60s. it's
wore their makeup, and it could be aired as both.There was a way that they had that they were able to do it.
However, you can watch now on the DVDs released today, you can watch those episodes in color, but they ultimately aired them in black and white because it was cheaper, but they filmed them both ways.But then and then color started coming in.
I'm sorry, which which series was that the Lucy show her second series that
Where are they with that one?
Oh, that one?Oh, no, I'm sorry.Yeah, that that's where they're in Connecticut.It's Lucy and Viv and the kids.
And there is this the one where where there's the episode with the chickens and they're running and she's running around.
No, that's still I Love Lucy.That's the final season.Yeah.I Love Lucy ended in Connecticut.The Lucy show started in Connecticut.So I can see where that's a little got it.Yeah.Yeah.I see what you mean.Yeah.
I just, there's, again, I haven't watched these in a while, but there's still glimpses of things stuck in my brain, the memes of it, if you will.I feel like I will remember the two-headed dragon from this episode because that is the moment.
Yes, and what you know what's great with that too is even they start the scene with that like it's after commercial break.
And so you're just thrown into the dragon's lair which I always thought was great, like, like they start to come back with a bang, super duper smart.Yes.
Yeah.And also, I was, I was what like watching this like the town square. introduction, if you will, is like the meat of the episode, because then they go to the dragon's den, and that is really, what, five minutes of the episode itself?
And then they go back to the town square at the end, and it's I mean, the latter portion of the episode seems a little faster when we're going to the different places than the beginning, because they're obviously setting things up.
And I guess, you know, budget and time were a factor for this episode, because they're like, OK, well, we have to set it really all in one thing.
We can't go around.It can't go crazy.Yeah, I think it's a timing thing, because the fact that they kept the majority of it on one set, and also basically in the same costumes too, big time saver.
So they really had more time to write, you know, because think about it, if they even did one different set, or one more different set, because you do have the dragon's lair, of course, but say three dream sets,
you probably wouldn't lose a song because of it.Right.Because of timing.So, you know, we're lucky that we get five original songs like this.
So, okay, we did The Apparata.We did Lucy Goes to Scotland.Are there any other like full-blown musical episodes that you can think of?
I mean, full, full-blown like this?No.Where it's the central plot point.You know, you could do
you could pick out musical moments of the show and talk about that because they, you know, they touch upon different styles of music, you know, like, they have like a French review episode and there's, well, like you said, the one, the song with Bob Hope.
Yeah, there's, yeah, nobody loves the ump.There it is.I knew it would come back to me.There's that.You know, there's, it's, well, it is called The Indian Show, of course, today, 2024.
We can't call it that, but there is a whole episode based on- Oh, yes.You know, I mean, yes, exactly.I'm trying to be 2024 about it, but like, you know what we're talking about.Come here.Yes, yes.Nah, ah.
It's funny, you know, that's a very funny part.There's so you really could and then even the moment where Lucy tells Ricky that she's pregnant like that's a musical moment as well.
So you could really go through the series having my baby, right?
You could do you could do like a best of if you will of musical moments throughout the series and that would be fun to like dive into as well.But these two are like the big this like the musical.This is the story.
We are writing original stuff like it's these two episodes.
So then in the future series that Lucy had, that is still Lucy as Lucy, Lucille Ball playing Lucy, there aren't any other ones as well?
Any other musical episodes?Well, in the Lucy show in Here's Lucy, yeah, like there's one in particular on the Lucy show that she did with Mel Torm. excuse me, and called Main Street USA.And that is like a full blown.
Jack Baker also choreographed that who did this, and that's a full blown. production, it's, it's a great, great episode.
And then throughout it, you know, especially when in here's Lucy, when she had her kids, Lucy and Desi, Jr, who were also quite musically talented, then they would do things together, like as a trio, all of them, and they they did a lot of stuff.
And that was the 70s, too.I mean, my God, anything could happen on this in this, you know, on TV in the 70s, there was such that the like the golden age of variety and musical television.So there there are more episodes throughout
Which is still surprising because like you have, I mean, like you said, they showcased Desi because he's a musician.So they wanted to get him his songs and everything.But like Lucille Ball did a lot of musical movies and she is very talented.
So I'm surprised that they weren't trying to like push the boundaries even further, unless they were and we don't know like behind the scenes.
Right.And I feel like that could be part of it because, you know, she you know, she did Wildcat on Broadway.That was her one Broadway show.And but, you know, but she did it.You know, she did the eight show grind.She she did it.
And, you know, she did.Dewberry was a lady, of course.And Yeah, like she has name.I mean, yeah, like exactly like she had a lot of musical moments in her career, regardless of ever calling herself a singer.
First, she never called herself a singer, but she knew that she could do it.And she could end that she had the theatrical sense to convey the message of whatever the song was.She totally had that gift.
And, and so it's just, well, and I think they focus looking back.Yeah, I think they focused more on her dancing than her singing.
Yeah, and which is funny, too, because dancing always did make her nervous.She would get nervous with dancing because she would she would worry that she would forget about the steps.And because, you know, like this was all done in one take.
Very rarely did they go back and do retakes.But, you know, but she never you know, or if she did falter, we really don't know it.And if she did is she she knows the Lucy character like the back of her hand.She can make a bit out of it.
You know, you she could. get out of it if need be, but really, I mean, she was always spot on with her choreography.Always.She would drill it.She would drill it.I'm thinking of the pony episode.Oh, in with, when she's doing the, like the pony.
Yeah, when she's jumping through the hoop and everything and she brings it down.
Yes, when, yeah, because in Lucy Meets the Queen, she does the pony bit.And also in Ethel's Hometown, she kind of does it as well when she's like performing behind her.
No, I think this is when she meets the Queen because there's the two other women as ponies.
Yes, because it's like a three ring circus kind of thing.Yes.Yeah.And she gets the Charlie horse because she can't bow and all of that.Yeah.
It's funny.It's funny.Well, Mike, is there anything else you want to talk about before we get into Sharp and Flat?
Oh my gosh, I feel like we really, we've covered so much.It's so fun.You look at one episode, and then it's like, but here's all the history involved in even just one episode.There's so many different directions it goes.It's fascinating to me.
Plus you have all this knowledge that you want to share to the masses, it sounds like.
Yeah, because it's fun.I love it.I'm like, yeah.It's what I do in spare time is I love to study this stuff.I have my whole life.Okay, let's get into sharp and flat, shall we?
So in this section, we're going to highlight some moments whether or not we talked about it.If we liked it, it's sharp.And if we didn't like it, I thought I could change.It's flat.Yes.I want to start with flats.Because I don't have any.
Yeah, I know.You really can't.I think the only, only thing I could potentially say, and I did touch on it already, was Desi reading cue cards as it looked like during I'm in Love with the Dragons dinner.
That's the only thing, but like, with what he had to do, pardon me, like his responsibilities, like, I get it.It's, you know, and the turnaround of television.But when it comes to the music and those lyrics and everything, none.
Like the only flat, like we said.
enchilada ricardo sure yeah but like i don't know if that we say i think we call it a flat now because we're 2024 and we've come a long way in this world but in 1956 knee slapper i mean hey it got laughs that you could right and it's not and like it could have been worse
Oh, it could have been way worse.
Oh, my God.I mean, obviously, they're not gonna there's a standard that they had that they couldn't probably go back and go further.Yeah.But saying enchilada Ricardo
I get it as the joke itself, where they're playing off of the Cuban, Hispanic, Latina, Latino background of things, making the joke of it, but like... I mean, it could have been like, aye, aye, aye, mommy, like Ricardo or something like that, yeah.
You know, and it's funny, you know, you can make jokes like that then and about other things, but they were never allowed to use the word pregnant during those episodes when she was pregnant for little Ricky.
They had to, the amount of hoops they had to go through with CBS and everything.It's like, you can't say pregnant, but we can do that, you know?
Or you could have a whole song saying you're having my baby, but like,
Turn around and make make fun of it.Be a little racist.
Right.Isn't it like it's just it's baffling as we look back on it.But then they were like, well, yeah, sure.You know. Wild.Wild.You know what, I'm actually gonna give that the flat.That's fair.So you give that, yeah, give that the flat.That's okay.
Because yeah, we can look at things now and we can say, if we could do better.
Out of the five or six writers that were part of this, one, two, three, four, out of the five writers, like, come on guys.
Yeah, five writers.And I guess even you could technically say Larry since he's the lyricist, you know, I mean,
And then, obviously, Lucy and Desi had to have some say in what was written.
They had all the say.I mean, they did, and James Kern, he said, there's a quote of his, he says, because he directed this episode in several, and he said, but when you're directing the man who owns the cameras, you're not really directing.
Which I always thought, it's like, and that's true.You could only do so much.
Okay, let's get into sharps.I sharped the live singing because it's theater.
It's theater.It is.It's full on theater.And the choreography is a big sharp for me.It's like the staging is smart with that set.I think the dancing with the swords is fabulous.I sharped the sword dancing as well.
It is so good. all of it even like the the dancers and lucy's jokey because like you know that is hard i feel like it's hard i feel like it's harder to be Lucy's choreography was harder.Yeah, that's what I'm trying to say.
Sure.It's hard to rehearse something bad.Yeah, it is.That's the timing of it.
Because like you have, especially the choreographer, you have to think of it It's like the play that goes wrong.You have to write it out and plan it to be perfect, and now you have to find the comedy.
Yeah, and that is hard.That is harder.And to do it in the amount of time that she had to do it and work with Jack Baker on like that's, yeah, that, oof, it's a lot.It's a lot.
And then my last sharp is for Desi's Scottish accent. Hey, he did it.You know what? Bravo.Good, sir.
There's a lot of things.And we talked about the like we said, the racism of the time and everything.But yeah, he did it.And he fucking he fucking did it.
I and and he did it as you know, he doesn't necessarily always play the joke of it like he really tried to do it to the best of his ability.And for the sake of the episode, just to blend in with it all like he was doing it.
For it, you know, not to be a joke per se, but he did it because that's what was asked of him, you know, and he stepped up to the plate.
It's also interesting that they wrote it because I know throughout the series, every once in a while, there's a joke about an English translation that Desi doesn't understand a word.Oh, yeah.And they wrote that in this episode, too.Yeah.
Which was fascinating because it's like, It's like Scottish shorthand that he doesn't understand.
And he's supposed to be Scotch.Right.I also think Sharp is for Larry Ornstein, who was the mayor and wrote all of these lyrics.For someone who came into this initially just like, I'm writing the lyrics.Oh wait, now I'm in it.I'm singing it.
I'm doing rewrites.I'm doing this.And for someone who's never worked on the show before, Like, what a huge undertaking.
Like, that's, I mean, that's really incredible to be working with, you know, because Lucy Desi, powerhouse of television at this time.There was no one like them.So to come in and do all of this, yeah, it, amazing, amazing.
So I, like, huge, huge props to him and a huge sharp for creating such a magical episode. I see what you did there.To your knowledge, did he work with either of them before this?
No, he was asked by Bob Schiller, who was one of the writers of this episode, to come in and work on this.No, as far as I know, he had never worked with them before.So this was the introduction?
Yes, this was the introduction, and then he was brought back next season for Nobody Loves the Ump, and I think that was it.I have not found any other time that they worked together.I think this was just the two.Okay.Do you have any other sharps?
I mean, the whole thing, but it's specifically those were my big ones where I'm just like, yes, way to go.
Would you any of the songs to your life's playlist?I didn't write any down because sure, it's a little again.And I hate to use the I use this excuse every time, but it's true.It's a little too precious for the show.
And like, yeah, you need the visual, I think, as well.
You do need the visual because it It's what's selling these lyrics and everything, and the music.Like, you need the visual.
If anything, like I said, I'm In Love With A Dragon's Dinner is a real earworm, but just because of that, it's not on my most played playlist.But if I had to pick one, that for the melody line.
Yeah, I think I'd agree with you.And you know what?I think I would watch on YouTube, Tiznaya Bra Night. Oh yeah.Cause that was just fun.And then I would watch the, um, the sword dance moment again, but that there is no song title for that one.
Yeah, no, it's like the dance break within it, whatever.But I was like that, that's, that's theater.That's good stuff.That's theater.Yeah.Um, that's good stuff.Yeah.
Um, but on that note, Michael, we're done with the episode.
We did it.Oh my gosh.Now, I have something fun that, you know, and I will give to you so you could post if you like.Now, believe it or not, in regards with this episode, not a lot of stuff is out there.
Like, it's not like there's merchandise that they made with this episode, really.Of course, yeah.
there was they made a teddy bear in a kilt and they called it that which was like a stretch but i will say there is the i love lucy cookbook and there are two two recipes from the episode one is the mcgillicuddy soup which is referenced in tisnay a bra bright night
and a dragon's dinner stew, which I have made that one.It's actually quite good.So I can give you these recipes.
If anybody wants to like, because I did this with my best friend, Michael, we made, this was during the pandemic, but we made the dragon's dinner stew for fun because again, it's the pandemic.What else are we gonna do?
So we did, we made that and we watched the episode and it was very fun and it was really good.So I will share those with you. So if you want to post them, and if anyone wants, you know, if you do cook these recipes, share that with us.
Tell John, we want to know.
Also, and in this cookbook, is it just inspired by episodes?
Oh, yeah, they're class.Yeah, it's recipes inspired by the show.And, you know, it's quite fun because you can make some of them Like they even have like a cocktail of like Vitamita Vegemin, which is kind of like a Bloody Mary type of thing.
But you know, so things are inspired, but they did take from the episode, like Aunt Sally's pecan pralines during the road trip to Hollywood.Fred Mertz's seven layer chocolate cake from Job Switching.
So some are like direct from the episode, but a lot of it's just inspired by.
Do they have like a Hershey Kiss recipe for the, The conveyor belt one.Speed it up a little!
No, I don't think they do.I think it's the chocolate cake because during that episode, that's when they switch places and Fred says he's going to make a chocolate cake and it's like flat as a pancake.
And Ricky's like, well, where are the seven layers?And he goes, well, it's in there because he doesn't get it.But oh, no, I lie.OK, we do have.Sorry, I lied.Kramer's Candies Kitchen chocolate bonbons. We do have them, good.We do have them, yeah.
I have not read everything from this.That is iconic.Yes, but this is a very fun, you can get this cookbook on Amazon, it's definitely there, but I will share these two recipes because they're episode related, so it's a lot of fun.
Besides the cookbook, Michael, what do you have to plug or promote? Oh my gosh, you know, it's, I was very fortunate that, you know, you were able to come see me in Winesday the musical and that's what I just wrapped pretty recently over the summer.
So right now it's just, what am I, I'm plugging and promoting that actor life where we are just on the grind.It is the fall season.So get out there, do those auditions and let's book.That's what I'm gonna plug for everyone.
If you're an actor, get out there and book, because that's what I'm doing.
And, well, so, any future projects, though, like, people will be able to see them on your Instagram or your website?
Yes, on my Instagram.On Instagram, it's at Michaelvelvo1 is my handle.And my website is www.michaelvelvo.com, where I always have it up to date with my news and everything that is in the going-ons of my life.
or people can hire you from those.
That too, we love that, you know, actors access, whatever, please, absolutely.
And if you want to talk more things Lucy, or if you just want to talk in general, you can email me at buttersongpod at gmail.com.I'm also on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, TikTok, and threads at buttersongpod.
So obviously this is probably the last, this is the last I Love Lucy, potentially, last episode that we're doing.The full episode that we'll do.
yeah um my michael and i will have to have a little chat at off air to figure out because i'll have fun chatting with you so we'll figure out future episodes and things like that we'll do something together we'll figure it out but if you have a suggestion for michael you know we got the socials uh and if you want to be part of the next episode's conversation well we'll be discussing
Valley of the Dolls.So good.So good.I'm gonna say it now.I don't think it's a musical, but we will see what happens in the episode.I think it'll still be fun.
Yeah.Why not?I'm sure somewhere somebody wrote even a parody of it.I'm sure it's out there.There's gotta be.There's gotta be something.So I think it works.Anyway.
Michael, thank you so much for coming back on.This was so much fun.Thank you for having me.We managed to talk for about an hour on a 20 minute, 26 minute episode.Sounds right.Sounds correct.And everyone, thank you for listening and bye for now.
Special thanks to Aaron Troy for creating the pods artwork and to Nick Bamizino for composing the theme song and the jingles.
A huge thank you to CastBox for hosting this podcast, and thank you again for tuning in to today's episode of Life's But A Song.Bye for now, everyone, and have a musical day.
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