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From CAFE and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is Stay Tuned In Brief.I'm Preet Bharara.My guest today is one of America's most recognizable and outspoken entrepreneurs, Mark Cuban.
Mark has never shied away from sharing bold opinions, often challenging the views of other business leaders.
Now, in an election season where economic policy is front and center, Mark has taken on a new role as a surrogate for Vice President Kamala Harris in her quest for the White House.Mark, welcome to the show.
Thanks for having me on, Preet.I'm a big fan.I'm excited to be on.
So I appreciate that.I want to just explain to folks how this came to be.With full candor, we tried to get Kamala Harris, and we tried to get Tim Walz.They're busy doing other stuff.And they said to us, is there another surrogate that you would like?
And I said, Mark Cuban.And part of the reason for that is you're an interesting person in this election cycle.You're far from a left-wing, knee-jerk Democrat.
You have conflicting views with a lot of people on the left, and you're a powerful voice in the business community.So I appreciate your speaking up and the role you've played.I want to start with your journey, as it were, Mark, with Donald Trump.
And I'm sure you get reminded of this all the time.Back in 2015, you said, I don't care what his actual positions are.I don't care if he says the wrong thing.He says what's on his mind.He gives honest answers rather than prepared answers.
This is more important than anything any candidate has done in years.And then you recently said, I actually started off supporting Donald.Then I got to know him.And my question mark is, what does it feel like to be the reverse JD Vance?
It feels good.Yeah.What I don't tell people is I talked to JD when he thought he was Hitler and he convinced me.No, just kidding.Um, I don't know JD Vance.So what happened?Um, I met Donald first, I think it was 99 or 2000.
I wasn't quite 98 or 99 at Mar-a-Lago at a Superbowl party.He threw nothing consequential.He invited me to help him understand the internet. So I went to Trump Towers and spent some time with him there, again, inconsequential.
In 2004, I had a TV show called The Benefactor, which kind of went up against The Apprentice, and he kicked my butt.
And so he took the liberty of posting on or talking to media, because there wasn't social media, about how he kicked my butt, which I was fine with, but it gave me an opportunity to have some fun and respond to him.
And then when he started doing all the birtherism with Obama and he was on Twitter, I started going back at him and giving him a hard time and all that kind of stuff and he started talking nonsense and it was fun, right?I mean, I didn't care.
It was fun.And then right around the same time, I was also on Shark Tank.I went in in 2011.And so that just gave me another foundation.
Well, that was a pretty successful one.
Yeah, that's run pretty well, right?15 years, 16 years for the show.So fast forward to 2015, and I've always been apolitical.I've never gotten involved in politics.I'm an independent.
Literally, I tried to vote in many cases for the candidate I thought would do the least because I have a libertarian edge to me.
And then once I said that, that I thought, you know, the quote you, um, you spoke of, he reached out to me and started talking to me and calling me a lot.
And so we started going back and forth and having conversations, you know, which, what do you think about this, this, this, and this.And honestly, I never thought he would win.It was like, I'm not a Ted Cruz fan.
I thought anything that would, you know, kick Ted Cruz out of the primaries and there were 16 candidates.So, you know, I thought there's no chance much like other people.
But as i got to know him more and try to get to him to engage as he won different primaries, you know i tried to get him engaged in policy whether it was tech whether it was you know foreign policy whatever it was and he never would engage.
Is that because he knows nothing about policy?
Pretty much.Yeah.That's what we came down to.You know, I remember asking him, you know, if you win this thing, you're going to have to make decisions where people could live or die based off of what you decide.And he wouldn't respond.
You know, I remember asking him, there was a debate. And, um, he didn't participate.I'm like, why don't you, you, it was on CNBC.
And I'm like, why don't you use this chance to go out and visit businesses and let them know that you understand business.He goes, Mark, Mark Cuban and Donald Trump don't go to people's houses or dinner tables to have dinner with them.
And I'm like, but you do that.Did he didn't see that one coming?And then as you know, as I tried to get other things, um, out of them related to policy, there was just nothing there.
And the more he spoke out, the more that was obvious, the more the immigration stuff came out and the more hateful stuff came out.And you know, that's just turned me.
Why do people think that he has more specific policy proposals and understands policy, whether it's economic policy or anything else better than Kamala Harris?When what you say, what you said just now is demonstrably true.
He doesn't know anything about policy.
Yeah.I mean, the reason why is simple.He's a, he's a great salesperson. You know, we've all been in situations where there are products that we just think are lousy, but somebody does a great job selling them.
Somebody's got to sell Pet Rocks, you know?Somebody's got to sell Beanie Babies.
And, you know, that, in essence, it sounds kind of crazy, but it's almost like the Beanie Baby craze, where people start saying, oh, these are valuable, they're collectibles, they're cute.
But that fades after time.You know, this guy has a stable constituency.
Yeah, but the difference is, I mean, people had to actually put up money for a Beanie Baby.With Donald Trump, he doesn't ask for anything other than votes or just your attention.
Well, he sells $100,000 watches.
Yeah.I mean, that's television right there.And you know, I mentioned going back and forth with him on Twitter.I used to just destroy him on Twitter about those things.It's like, why are you selling Trump steaks?Why are you selling Trump water?
Why are you selling Trump vodka? Because you have to.Why are you now selling Trump watches?Why are you selling Trump cologne?Why are you selling Trump commemorative coins?Why are you doing this DeFi project?Because he has to.
The man is so intent on whatever he can do to put more cash in the bank because he needs the cash.And he never, ever, if you just look at his FEC filings, I mean, I have a good understanding about what it cost him to keep up his lifestyle.
He can't afford it. And that's a major problem for him.And I personally think that drives a lot of his approach to this and drives a lot of his interest because this is the one place where you don't really have to ask for money.
Other people do it for you and you can kind of pick the piggy bank of everybody out there.
Well, it's interesting that he purports to be a billionaire multiple times over and barely puts any of his own money where his mouth is.And usually people of his caliber, in terms of stated wealth,
put their money where their mouth is, like Mike Bloomberg and others.That tells you something, too, right?
Oh, for sure.I mean, not only in terms of the campaign, but also his approach to hardworking Americans, you know, from Trump University to Trump's SoHo.
You know, there was a time when he was, during the Stormy Daniels stuff, when Michael Cohen testified.And if you'll remember, Michael Cohen started talking about how Trump encouraged him to short pay vendors.
And any other business person on the planet, when that was stated, at the time Donald did his little impromptu press conferences, would have said, no, I never said that.I don't do that. He never said any of that.He didn't deny any of it.
And then just recently, just the other day in Michigan, when there was an audio outage, a 17-minute audio outage, he literally said about the contractor or company or the service provider, whoever it was that was doing the audio, that he wouldn't pay them and he might sue them.
To me, that's part of the message I try to get out there.That's how much he respects the American people.That's how much he cares for hardworking Americans.That's what guides his policy.
So, as a member of the business community generally, and I know the business community is not monolithic, but there's, you know, there are entrepreneurs, there are old-style business people, there are different industries, there's tech, there's pharmaceuticals, et cetera.
How have people reacted in the business world, in the finance world, to your outspokenness against Trump?Have you lost any friends?
They're thanking me because, you know, Kamala, for all of her strengths and understanding of policy, because she's only been in the race for 13 weeks, you can't cover everything.
Particularly when you're trying to make up a deficit and win an election and go into the swing states.The people at a rally don't want to hear about tax on unrealized capital gains.
The people at rallies, they don't want to hear the nuances of her tax plans and how it impacts business. Real business people want to know about that.
They want to know that there's not going to be attacks on unrealized capital gains because they know that that would be devastating.
And even though- But you're saying that's not going to happen.Right.What's the basis?Because Biden said that he wanted to do that.Kamala has not?No.
So when Joe Biden first released it, it was part of his 2024 budget.And he, you know, and I called them up.I'm like, look, I hate Trump.I'm supporting Joe.
How can this how can you put this in and they were like look we needed for the cbo to make every all the numbers balance it was there for that purpose it's not gonna happen.
And then when it's comma says she supported the budget people were you know where the same question she says she supported well i was i call them up and they were like no just there to me the exact same thing.
And then the next question becomes, well, how do you know she's not going to fully support what's in the budget?And the obvious is in her tax proposal.Joe wanted a much higher tax rate on corporations and on capital gains.
Kamala came out in the middle at 28% for both.That shows you that she is different than Joe Biden's budget proposal.And so it wasn't a stretch for me to say, and for the campaign to confirm to me,
that there's not going to be a tax on unrealized gains.And for those people within the campaign that weren't sure, I explained it to them.
If you do that, all investors are going, and I realize there's a $100 million threshold, but it affects everybody downstream.
And that's why investors were concerned, because anybody who invests a lot of money in others, there's a lot of uncertainty and risk and a lack of liquidity often.And if you are facing a stock market that goes straight up,
you're going to have to retain a lot of cash, a lot of cash.And even if it's not a stock market going straight up, if it's a liquid investment of yours that's going up, you're going to have to retain a lot of cash.
And when you retain a lot of cash, it's the riskiest investments that you typically make that go first.
And who are the people who need those investments the most that have the hardest time getting them?Women, people of color.Those are going to be the first investments to go.
Second part to that is the stock market, which I know you're very familiar with.You've seen the number of public companies decline as is. I took my company public in 1998.I was cash poor, stock rich.
In that unrealized capital gains environment, I either would have had to sell enough stock that I might, I would have lost my majority control, or I would have had to borrow against it.
And now all of a sudden, because my company was doing well in the stock market, I was in debt up to my eyeballs for hundreds of millions of dollars.
And those- You convinced me.You had me at, uh, you had me at unrealized gain. But here's something else that you've said that's interesting.During this campaign, Trump keeps calling Kamala Harris a socialist, even a communist.
And you have said she's not the socialist, it's the other guy.Can you explain that?
So Donald Trump has come out and asked for caps on interest rates for credit cards. That's a perfect example of socialism 101.
It strikes me that that might be popular in the wide spread areas of America.
Oh, I'm not saying it's not, right?Those two things can be true.You could be a socialist and have a policy that is popular.And so that is really what I focused on.I mean, there's other things like a sovereign wealth fund, despite us having debt.
It just won't work.It's impossible.
You know, there are other areas where he's tried to put price controls on minimal things, but you know, their initial response to Kamala talking about price gouging, which by the way is a law in 37 states was, oh no, it's a price cap, which it wasn't.
Of course it only was during crises.And here he was coming up with a cap on interest rates that might be popular, but would destroy credit for the people who have, who have the hardest time getting it.
Can you explain something to me about the tech community?I know, again, that's not monolithic, but there's reporting and anecdotal evidence that the tech community has a lot of supporters for Trump, particularly in the crypto area.
How is it that an aging Luddite who claims to have never sent an email is popular or could be popular in the tech community?
He's very transactional. That says it all.He doesn't care about crypto.He doesn't care about technology.He doesn't care about AI.But he certainly cares about people with a lot of money.And what is he telling them to get to get the money?
I mean, look at what he did with Bitcoin.You know, you had a lot of, they call them Bitcoin maxis, the people who think that the only real crypto is Bitcoin. And everything else is what they call shit coins.
And so those people who are hardcore proponents basically said, we're going to give you a lot of money to your campaign.And in exchange, we want you to put Bitcoin in the treasury as an alternative to the gold that's held by the treasury.
He didn't care.He didn't know one way or the other. And so he said yes.
Now, what he didn't talk about in conversations I've had with the Harris campaign is there truly is a big groundswell of crypto ownership in young men of, you know, people of color, white, green, everybody.
And the reason that happens, particularly with lower income men, is they really don't have access to traditional banking like you and I did when we were growing up.
You know, it used to be it was a rite of passage to have a checking account and a savings account. and write your first check and we were all proud about it.But now that because of minimum balances and because of fees, that's almost impossible.
And what's happening, those young men in particular have evolved to get into the app economy. So they'll download Robinhood and they'll download Coinbase and their competitors, and they'll put $26 on Dogecoin.
And in their mind, they just bought $26 worth of Dogecoin at 10 cents each or Ethereum or Bitcoin or any XRP, any of the many crypto options.And in their mind, that is their future net worth. That's how they're going to buy their next car.
That's how they might get a down payment on a home.And when the initial response to that by the Biden administration was basically ignorance of it, everybody was like, okay, Trump's the one.
But- But Kamala Harris, who comes from the Bay Area and has technologists and others in her constituency for a long time, is different from Biden on that score or not?
For sure.Yeah, a hundred percent. Basically, she has her core values and one of those core values is protecting and supporting people who are less advantaged and don't have access to the banking system.
And so in talking to myself and a lot of those people over there,
including somebody like Ben Horowitz, who initially showed support for Trump and now said he's also offering money to the Harris campaign, she got to understand the frailties of the banking system and how these people, just like I explained, really need access to crypto.
And that got her too involved to be able to say, I forget which speech it was, but that she'll support and protect people who own digital assets.And in another speech in Pittsburgh, she said,
You know what, blockchain is a valid technology that we need to encourage here in the United States because one of the things that makes our economy so great and makes us the destination for entrepreneurs is that we're the home of almost every great new technology and we can't lose that with blockchain either.
So I think a lot of the folks that she knows in Silicon Valley explained that to her.And to go back to your point about why Trump is getting support, remember a lot of that support in general from Silicon Valley started while Biden was the candidate.
And Biden had no interest in talking to Silicon Valley whatsoever.And that really backfired on him.Kamala, on the other hand, particularly since Tony West, her brother-in-law, has worked as a GC at Uber, has tons of connections there.
She, as you said, from the Silicon Valley, represented Silicon Valley, knows people there.She has those contacts, and I think she's transitioned a lot of those people over to supporting her.
Not Elon and not some others, but... Right.Not Elon, that's for sure.I want to talk about tariffs before you got to go.Sure.Trump has been promoting this wacky idea per every expert that has any kind of understanding of this at all.
with respect to China and then across the board with every other country, your Shark Tank co-host tweeted in support of some of this tariff policy that is being advanced by Donald Trump.
And he replied on Twitter, I think, 1920... Hey, Kev, 1929 called.They want their tariff policies back.
And my question is, you know, if you want to address that, but do Trump voters not believe the experts who say this will dramatically increase inflation?No, they don't.Or do they not believe Trump is really planning to do this?
They believe him when he says he's using this as a negotiating tool, and they don't go back.They have Trumpnesia.They don't go back to 2019 when he did the same thing, and not even as draconian as he's proposing now, and it backfired on him.
It put farmers out of business.He had to take whatever tariff revenue that American importers paid and give that to soybean farmers and others.And China basically saw them coming and just hurt us.
So they think it's just a negotiating tool and don't understand the implications.And that's one of the reasons why when I go out I try to put it in context of small businesses and families.
So for instance, so many of our products that we buy Christmas are imported from China, from shoes to clothing to backpacks to sporting goods, et cetera.And if he puts an across-the-board tariff of 60%, well, those products are going up at least 60%.
And what that means is families are going to have to make decisions about what they buy for Christmas.And can they afford to buy as much as they did in the past?
And when that happens, not only do the families suffer, but all those businesses, the dress shop down the street, the knick-knack store where you buy your favorite candles that are imported, all those small businesses suffer.
And as we saw during 2019, many of those businesses went out of business.And I try to just get that point across so it hits home that tariffs aren't some esoteric thing that are negotiated.
There are things that truly will affect your Christmas next year.And that's why if Trump wins, and that's why I called him the Trump that stole Christmas.Right.
How can business people operate in an environment in which a sitting president of the United States can, in a fit of pique, single out a particular company by name, in this case, recently, John Deere, and say if they take some action, they want to produce part of their machinery in Mexico, that he would whack them with a 200% tariff
How do the business people that you know think that it's okay to have that kind of uncertainty and vindictiveness in the air at any possible moment?They hate it.How is that good?They hate it.
And yet a lot of people in the business community are like, they love the guy.Is it just about taxes and they don't care about the uncertainty?
No, I think it's not about the uncertainty or the taxes.It's just they don't know calmly yet. That's it, in a nutshell.
To realize that in the 13 weeks she's been in the race, to come from having negative favorables and to basically just taking over Biden's positioning, and to come all the way here where we're at dead heat, that's amazing.
Historians will write about that and say, that's just incredible.
You know there are going to be people that don't fully understand you know where she's coming from is she far left that she represent bernie sanders and elizabeth warren were you know which is one of the reasons they have me out there talking to businesses talking to you and getting them to understand that no she is a centrist she she's carrying she's on empathetic you know she's pragmatic.
She's open-minded.She's not dogmatic.She's not an ideologue.And what that means is she is going to be good for your business.And one of the other things I say, Preet, and this really resonates, there are 33 million companies in this country.
99% of them are subchapter S, LLC, or solo enterprise, meaning they all pay their taxes based on their personal income tax. 99%, probably 99% of them make $400,000 or less.
Which means that for 99% of businesses out there and the entrepreneurs and CEOs that run them, their taxes are not going up and most likely going down.
And once I start letting them realize that, just realize your own personal circumstances, she is really good for your business.
Their stability and all the other things we've talked about, no tariffs, then it starts to resonate with them and they get that Donald Trump really only cares about big business.There are only 20,000 companies with 500 or more employees.
And when he talks about reducing taxes from 21% to potentially 15% if you manufacture here or bring manufacturing here, whatever it may be, that affects so few companies.
But if there are tariffs involved, when you do the math, the tariffs plus his tax rate is far more expensive to the larger businesses than 28% coming from Kamala Harris.
Final question, Mark, that I have to ask you before I let you go.In your mind, who do you find more annoying, Bill Ackman or the SEC Chair Gary Gensler?
That's top three questions I have ever been asked.
You gotta pick one.By the way, I have no opinion of anyone or these two gentlemen.I'm asking your opinion.
I'm only gonna put you on the spot.So I would definitely say Ackman's more annoying, but obviously Gary Gensler probably has more of an impact on the election, unfortunately.
Do you want to take his spot?
No, absolutely not.I've got a company called costplusdrugs.com that is just turning the pharmaceutical industry upside down.We're cutting medication costs for families.In some cases, there's this thing called especially generic drugs where
Drugs that people were paying $2,000 or self-insured companies were paying $2,000 a month for, our price is, you know, $21 a month.
The lack, the opacity in the pharmaceutical industry is so distinct that nobody knows what the price of medications are.So we started costplusdrugs.com.You go in and we carry, we don't carry them all, we carry 2,500 so far. You put in the name of it.
When it comes up, we'll show you our actual cost, our actual verifiable cost.Our markup is only 15%.We'll show you that.And then if it's mail order, we'll show you our pharmacy fee and the shipping fee.
And if it's local pickup, we'll show you the fee that goes to the local pharmacy.And we end up being dramatically cheaper.
And to me, we didn't go into health care at all, but Kamala and her team, to their credit, has really undertaken a lot of study.And to Lena Khan, to her credit, she took on the PBMs.
And by taking on the PBMs, I think Kamala, with her programs that she's already talked about, Kamala has talked about
dealing with the PBMs and transparency, that alone will cut the cost of medications for families and eventually all of healthcare, enough to more than offset any inflationary impact on families that we've seen the last four years.
Mark Cuban, hopefully you'll come back for a full hour at some point.For sure.For sure.Keep up your voice.Keep up your voice, sir.Appreciate it.
I'm trying, Preet.Thanks for all you do.
For more analysis of legal and political issues making the headlines, become a member of the Cafe Insider.Members get access to exclusive content, including the weekly podcast I host with former U.S.Attorney Joyce Vance.
Head to cafe.com slash insider to sign up for a trial.That's cafe.com slash insider. If you like what we do, rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.Every positive review helps new listeners find the show.
Send me your questions about news, politics, and justice.Tweet them to me at Preet Bharara with the hashtag AskPreet. You can also now reach me on threads, or you can call and leave me a message at 669-247-7338.That's 669-24-PREET.
Or you can send an email to letters at cafe.com.Stay tuned as presented by Cafe and the Vox Media Podcast Network. The executive producer is Tamara Sepper.The technical director is David Tatasciore.The deputy editor is Celine Rohr.
The editorial producers are Noah Azoulay and Jake Kaplan.The associate producer is Claudia Hernandez.And the cafe team is Matthew Billy, Nat Wiener, and Leanna Greenway.Our music is by Andrew Dost.I'm your host, Preet Bharara.As always, stay tuned.
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