From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies, history is riddled with unexplained events.You can turn back now or learn the stuff they don't want you to know.A production of iHeartRadio.
Welcome back to the show, my name is Matt.
They call me Ben.We are joined as always with our super producer, Andrew Triforce Howard.Most importantly, you are you.You are here.That makes this the stuff they don't want you to know.Big shout out to Triforce, by the way, you guys.
He just gave us the coolest... What's the name of that surfer hand you do with a pink... Shaka?Yeah, okay.
That's different.The Shaka and the Shaka are different.
Mm-hmm.Well, we have a big thank you to Triforce.We have a big thank you to all of you, our fellow conspiracy realists, tuning in.
As a matter of fact, one of you, Anonymous, hipped us to an idea that launched a conversation so good from our listener mail program that we turned it into an episode.We're talking about this a little bit off air.
Do you guys remember the film, What Dreams May Come?I know you do, because we
Just talk about it yeah i saw it in the theaters i think that's the one time i saw it which was what like ninety eight ninety nine maybe it seems like a ninety niner.
I remember it being visually stunning and moving but thinking back on it maybe a little emotionally manipulative.
Yeah, in 1998, it matched up perfectly with the way I had been taught heaven and hell work, at least pretty closely with some of the stuff where, you know, once you're in heaven, it's kind of just all the good things.
But if you somehow get to hell, it's, basically of your own creation, a torturous place.
Yeah, like heaven is universally good.Hell is specifically the worst thing for you.Yeah, exactly.That's why Dante was so... Oh, so famous for the infernal reckonings, which is really a political allegory.
We're mentioning what dreams may come because it is a visually stunning, if imperfect, exploration of the afterlife, as we're seeing, wherein
No spoilers folks, one guy, played by the legendary Robin Williams, fights to make things right with his family and his loved ones after he's passed from what we might recognize as the mortal plane.We're probably not going to dwell too much on this,
we just thought of this story at the beginning of tonight's exploration because humans love stories and in there if you think about it the whole thing is about how the protagonist learns ideas and thoughts have consequences and gravity like the conceptual metaphorical weight of what you believe in your own mind
has genuine effects on your sanity and upon your soul.
And in a recent Listener Mail program, we also introduced an idea that's been long familiar to philosophers, psychologists, and the mad, brilliant writers of Secure, Contain, and Protect, SCP, shout out, the idea of the info hazard.
I mean, you know, the first thing that came to my mind when I was thinking about this, or I guess when I have been thinking about it in recent months, is kind of like a right wing talking point that comes out a lot.The idea of the woke mind virus.
without being political at all.I just think it's interesting.It's been kind of politicized.
It's this exact thing we're talking about, politicized in a way that's like talking about how ideas can be infectious and can be like, you know, a plague almost.
It's a very interesting, you know, way of looking at it, but it is also something that we can kind of understand a little bit.So I guess I get why it's become such a popular, you know, thing to talk about.
Would you say a meme?Would you say something in the zeitgeist? I would.We dare.Let us cross this Rubicon together, the info hazard, the idea of information that can cause harm simply by knowing the information.
What is this cognitive conspiracy exactly?And could it be real?
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Here are the facts.All right, the toxic thought.What is an info hazard?We talked about this a bit in a strange news program we had, oh gosh, fairly recently by an anonymous conspiracy realist.Thank you, anonymous conspiracy realist.
We learned that the best current definition of info hazard comes to us in 2011 from a philosopher named Nick Bostrom.
Yeah, man, I know you're a big fan of Nick Bostrom.What's what's his deal?
His deal is that he says an information hazard is quote, a risk that arises from the dissemination of true information that may cause harm or enable some agent to cause harm.
Now it sounds a little bit weird there a little bit, just cause it's Nick Bostrom talking and that dude is smart.
Ultimately it's information that just by thinking about it and knowing this piece of information, it could be dangerous to you and or others.
Because you can kind of slice it a couple ways, like on the one hand could be conceptual information that just Fs up your whole worldview, or it could be actionable information that by knowing something about something else that you shouldn't know about, it causes some sort of moral quandary of like, how do I act?
I sure wish I didn't know that thing.
You guys have my non-physical tentacles quivering here to acquire the information.
Yeah, it's doubtlessly, it's a concept that, as we said, sounds maybe a little out there, a little abstract, but it's doubtlessly familiar to anybody who's read science fiction or to certain cough-cough real-world intelligence industries, cough-cough.
was is called you can read it freely online it's called information hazards colon a topology of potential harms from knowledge it's first published in review of contemporary philosophy he knew it was going to make some serious waves just like that fake whale we talked about earlier and and why wouldn't it i mean it's 2011 right cast your memory back folks
Civilization is already in the information age.Most people, groups, and institutions are generally on the side of, you know, knowing stuff, people like knowing stuff, bunch of curious cats, the humans.
That's like the discovery heyday, right?In the mid 2000s to like the early 2000 teens, that's when at least discovery channel and all of those programs that were out there that were specifically aimed at, at harnessing the curiosity of humanity.
It was a golden time for knowing things, the 2010s.
You're totally right, though, man.
It was cool.It was like in the zeitgeist, you know, 100%.We know.We were there.We were part of discovery, the whole edutainment wave.We were part of it.
The philosophy was, let's learn as much as we can, I think.At least that's what was sold to me, and I bought it hook, line, and sinker.
Yeah, the halcyon era, right?No stone left unturned.The foyer acts are like now a philosopher's stone into, speaking of stones, the FOIA acts, or a philosopher's stone toward some alchemical pursuit of knowledge.
You could argue that most governments, corporations, and individual bad faith actors thrive on this idea of knowing things, but also they thrive on knowing things while at the same time denying access to information to other parties.
Give me your stuff.You can't see mine.This is not only the concept of a lot of poker games, but it's also the concept of information asymmetry.That's a fancy term.I don't know if it applies too much outside of the world of Intel.
We know that the public, for a long time, has always supported the idea of free propagation of knowledge. what we call freedom of information.FOIA is just the acronym for the Freedom of Information Act.
Right.Well, we also know information is kept from us as the public on purpose.
See name of show.See name.
Yeah.That's all.So up at the end, because that is.Yeah.Bostrom.I can't wait to talk to the guy.Yeah. Bostrom understands that too, I think.
He defines two rough main categories of info hazards in this paper.First, the adversarial hazard that occurs when some information obtained somehow can be used by a bad faith actor for some sort of harm.Again, these are very vague
let's consider them umbrella categories.The other category is kind of like manslaughter, like you didn't mean to hurt people.It's an unintended consequence when you learn the information.
You might accidentally spread information like a virus, like let's think of a pathogen. You know, if you are infected with a disease or some sort of communicable condition, you might not always know that you are transmitting that dangerous disease.
Oh, I just got back from somewhere.Oh, I just have a cough.I'm not infecting other people.This is just, you know, travel crud.Or for the nerds in the audience, con crud.There's not malevolence involved.
I would lump most TV catchphrases and other things like that almost into this category.There are just almost annoying things that exist in your mind still from whatever shows you watched or books you read when you were a little kid that
still pop in your mind all the time.
It's the tenet of advertising.I mean, it's the central, like, unifying principle.It's like, let's chuck these ideas out that are catchy.And like, hopefully enough people will remember our little jingle, our little tagline.
And it'll force them to do a thing.
Well, in a weird way, it makes me just think about my love of the show The Office when I was a bit younger.And every time anyone says anything that's even the slightest bit of a double entendre, my head says... That's what she said.Exactly.
Another example, and they can be very short too.They actually function better with brevity.My wife.Oh, there you go.That's a memetic earworm.That's an attack.
An older one was like a Rodney Dangerfield thing.Be like, take my wife, you know, like, like little jokey things that become associated with certain comedians or even get so popular that they, people don't even think about who originally said it.
It just infects the culture and people to start repeating it because they've heard it.They didn't even know where it came from anymore after a certain point.
And. Bostrom has proposed in this paper, again, in this single paper, which you can and should read, has proposed several subsets beneath these broader categories.One would be data hazards or data.Your mileage may vary.
That's a piece of information that can be used to cause harm.That's something like if you know the DNA sequence of a virulent pathogen, and you have also a little bit of homework on gain of function, then you can make some nasty special effects.
Maybe we wound up in this.
So the idea of just having that piece of information in existence at your disposal is dangerous.
Yeah, that would be under adversarial hazard because someone who wants to, for instance, weaponize something like smallpox by possessing that information.
So it's an adversarial data hazard.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.We're doing taxonomy here, right?And then we have another one that's very close on a Venn diagram here, idea hazard.Idea hazard means something like,
When you know how to create a thing, if you have the right resources, you can create the thing and cause harm.So, for instance, a data hazard, as we were talking about off-air, is simply
The idea that knowing a thing, the possibility that you know a thing, can endanger other people and potentially yourself, the idea hazard is like the gun with some modifications.
So to me, it's like if you're thinking about somebody's terrorist slash freedom fighter, the idea that is scary there in a hazard is we need to do something about this opposing force, this government.
We need to do something about these people that oppose us.The idea is we need to attack them.
Is that what we're saying?Could it even also be like a religious ideology could be like weaponized in a way, like by having your mind turned to a particular view, radicalized, let's just say, whatever causes that.
Is that a data hazard or an idea hazard?
Yeah, and as you can see, folks, we are still wrestling with some of the nuances involved here.We do know that the third subset is the knowing too much hazard, which, as you know, is anathema to this show.
Information that, if known, can in some way cause danger to the person who knows that information. You know, it reminds me of some episodes we've done in the past on our peer show, our sister show, Ridiculous History.
People who made scientific or medical breakthroughs that threatened the social structure or religious thought of the day.Shout out to the National Invention Secrecy Act from the 50s.There are a lot of people who have been straight up murdered
by the power structures of their evenings just because they said very simple stuff like, hey, maybe the earth orbits the sun, or hey, maybe we should wash our hands if we're surgeons before we put them inside living human bodies.
I'm noting two very specific people who got punished for saying those things.
Yeah, like the astronomer Giordano Bruno, who was burned at the stake for his beliefs and his views on the nature of the universe and existence.
Following Copernican heliocentrism, or heliocentrism, right?
Yeah.It's interesting how these knowing too much hazards do pose a real threat, especially to philosophical frameworks and theosophical frameworks.So like in the individual,
if depending on what your beliefs are, right, if you know too much about certain things, it can shatter your worldview essentially.
And I, I, you know, I imagine somebody who's a member of the church of Latter-day Saints learning a little too much about the golden tablets, right.Or.
Yeah.Yeah.Or, or really like a devout Scientologist learning just a little too much about L Ron Hubbard's past and his background.
Or about Xenu and all of the stuff they don't tell you until you pay your way down the bridge.And then all of a sudden, you're like, sorry, this?What?
And then you have sunk cost fallacy.Yeah.
In the notes, Jeepers, consider Scientology tonight.
Well, especially because it is dangerous to you, your worldview, the way, and like family members, the people that surround you, it is like actually dangerous. that you might learn too much about something.
And even like the thoughts of Tansy Bainjent that we talked to, just the concept, the idea that maybe Jesus's bloodline continued on because maybe he had a line of children or something, right?
Which would then kind of shatter the basis of a lot of your, at least individually held beliefs and potentially your ability to believe in a church that's now in your mind based on potentially false information.
One of the most shameful examples of the no too much info hazard would be people in disenfranchised or marginalized communities in the past who perhaps knew midwifery, who perhaps knew how to help address infant mortality, like keep kids alive.
A lot of them got burned as witches back in the day.
And this is the fascinating stuff because what we're finding here is that while Nick Bostrom gave us the rules of the road as well as the nomenclature to frame this in, the idea of thought hazards is pretty freaking ancient when you think about it.
People have been killing each other over information since before the moon rose on recorded history.I mean, think about how often secret societies straight up murdered people.You can't know that handshake.
Think about the, the mystery school religions.How did you know about the Elysian mysteries?And you didn't have prior approval.That's a for you real quick.They didn't have guns.
So I don't know what that pop would be, but you know, we're doing our own sound effects.
Sound of their worldview shattering.
There it is.There it is.And one thought experiment we mentioned previously, one to shout out, Roko's Basilisk originated in 2010 on the Less Wrong Forum before Nick Bostrom's paper was published in 2011.
And Roko's Basilisk, which we mentioned thanks to our anonymous conspiracy realist in a listener mail program, Roko's Basilisk is a thought experiment named after the user Roko who posited the concept.
Yeah, it was a really interesting conversation when we talked about it on listener mail.In fact, a friend of ours, Carly, Ben, who you know, hit me up after that episode and said, you talked about the thing.You've ruined us all.
Don't think about the game.
Yeah, exactly.To be fair, we did do an existential dread trigger warning, I think, before that conversation.But sorry if we wrecked anybody's, you know, minds with that one.But, you know, we were wrecked, too, when we found out about it.
So we're all on the same page.What is Rocco's Basilisk by way of review?
Well, spoiler warning, if you're worried about info hazards, as we always say, you can turn back now.Three, two, one.
In a nutshell, the theory argues that a sufficiently powerful, god I hate this term, AI agent would have an incentive to torture anyone who imagined the existence of the agent, yet did not work. ardently to bring that agent into existence.
And the argument is called a basilisk because it's named after folklore, the legendary reptilian thing that can cause death with a single glance.
So the idea is merely hearing, merely knowing about this will supposedly put you at risk of torture from this thing, which reminds us of some of the, uh, we talked about
that poor missionary who went to North Sentinel Island to save people by converting them to Christianity.Again, three to one spoiler, didn't work out.
Doesn't the AI in this Rocco's Basilisk scenario seem intensely petty to you guys?
Just the idea of, oh, you didn't do everything you could to make sure that I existed, so now I'm gonna punish you forever by putting you in a dream loop where you die or are suffocated or drown over and over and over again.
Talk about a hell of your own making, right? Really petty.But the funny thing is, is it's not that different than how some folks describe the idea of a vengeful God. I find very interesting, you know.
If you learn the truth and then live without accepting and living in that truth, then you must be punished.
Yeah, I said it in this earlier episode, I think there was this great conversation with an indigenous person and one of those European Christian missionaries, where they said, wait, so if you didn't tell me, I'd be fine? And he said, yeah.
And he said, well, why did you tell me?That's an old school info hazard.
Which is the question that many of you are probably screaming at your podcast device right now.But Ben did trigger warning you.We did.You did it to yourself.
We gave you the countdown.Anyway, Rocco's Basilisk is a terrifying love letter to the concept of what we call decision theory.
And the interesting thing, I don't know, I don't recall us getting to it in our listener mail program, but for this episode, what you need to know is Rocco's Basilisk, the popularity of it,
the contagious nature of it is primarily due to another internet thing called the Streisand effect because Here's the deal.The founder of LessWrong, the tech forum in which this thought experiment first appeared, is a person named Eliezer Yudkowsky.
And Yudkowsky banned discussion of Rocco's Basilisk on the blog for several years because they said, hey, just to be safe, let's ban any potential info hazards.This had the opposite of the intended effect. Everybody got super excited.
Even the boffins at Rational Wiki started assuming that everybody on Less Wrong thought this was true.They did not.They largely rejected the argument without getting into the weeds.
The reason it got public attention and became an acknowledged info hazard is just because someone tried to stop it from getting out.Do we want to define the Streisand effect real quick?
Yeah, it's just this notion that if you try to suppress information, it just makes it more attractive to those people who would seek to find it.
The idea, I think it was Streisand wanted a picture of her house removed from the internet or something along those lines, and then by making a big fuss about it, she drew attention to the fact that it existed in the first place.
And we also know in the world of InfoHazards, our good friends over at Secure contain and protect the inspiration for an amazing game that Matt, you recommended to me called Control.They love a good InfoHazard.
If you ever want to have a trippy night, load up on your favorite vices. I like coffee, and then poke around their website and prepare to lose your evening.With all that background, we have to ask, how real are infohazards?
Do they go past thought experiments?Perhaps more disturbingly, how real could infohazards be in the future?
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Here's where it gets crazy.The answer to our first question is a resounding yes.And we are sorry to report this.Info hazards operationally are real.They're just not quite as extreme as what you read in fiction.
But I mean, you can put this together on your own just by knowing about the power of belief. people can make themselves ill by believing certain things.And it certainly can manifest itself psychologically at the very least.
So, I mean, that alone makes this stuff very real to many people.
Yeah.Guys, I'm going to give an example of what I think is one of the most prominent info hazards that has had the most effect on humanity as it exists right now.It was something that was created by three young guys
I don't know if you remember, but September 11 theories arose on the internet like right after the attacks, but they were mostly in dark corners of the internet.Few people tried to make videos back before there was even YouTube.
People were attempting to share their beliefs on that kind of thing.People were asking questions, right? How did those guys take over the plane so easily?Why didn't we get better footage of the Pentagon?Why did the towers collapse like that?
Good question.Why was QM, the Kuwait American corporation, so heavily invested in a few security companies that ran security for both the World Trade Center and for Dulles Airport?
What happened to the money in the basement?How did only one certain nationality, cough, cough, KSA, get past the grounding of all flights?
Right?Right?And why was Marvin P. Bush, George W. Bush's younger brother by 10 years, on the board of directors of StratSec, which was heavily invested in by that Kuwaiti company?
And why was the Saudi embassy in the same building as that company's operations?Anyway, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.There were a ton of questions that existed out there.Then in 2005, this small group of people
Jason Burmess, Corey Rowe, and Dylan Avery, they put all of these questions together into a documentary and released it on the internet.Again, early, this is 2005.Yeah.And they called it loose change.
And then that collection of ideas, I would argue guys set off a cascade of just individuals who were curious and had some of these same like individual questions and created It basically shattered worldviews, I think.It snowballed.
Yeah, but for hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people, because millions of people watched Loose Change.I think the original was just called Loose Change 9-11.Those were all thoughts, right?It wasn't full on evidence.
It was asking questions about specific things and then connecting potential answers to all those questions in one person's brain.
And more recently, maybe even more absurdly, things like QAnon, you know, that got people really, really worked up when they were already in a state of duress, kind of closed in, shut in during COVID.
All that stuff is just a collection of ideas of varying degrees of, you know, probability that people just totally jumped on and ran with, and then it spread like a virus.
Well, because the idea is, if any of this is true, this like, you know, this path I'm traveling down through these ideas.These if thens.They're all if thens, right?
But you cause, because even if you watch those things, some of the arguments are way more convincing than others.
But if you get caught by even one of them, then potentially, potentially, I'm using that word carefully, the government was somehow involved in 9-11.Potentially, I can't trust anything the government says anymore.
Potentially, the media companies are working for, you know, the people that did this thing.And it basically just goes down, down, down, down, down, down, down, down.
media does work for the government, though.Shout out to Washington Post and their humor columnist.
Well, it's true.I guess what I mean is, if you hadn't had those ideas prior, right, and you didn't have that feeling inside already, this one documentary lasts like an hour and 40 minutes or whatever.
Now you're set down a completely different thought path.
It hooks you in because the, the issue is. The advantage for the virus is always an advantage of offense.It only needs to get in once.And then, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun.
So the thing is, these real-life info hazards, like we just described, are often considered matters of national or international security.And I do not apologize for noting that the former stalwarts of U.S.
media have been compromised by factions of the U.S.government.I also further do not apologize for saying that factions of the U.S.government were at the very least opportunist about 9-11, but hey, maybe loose change got to me, right?
Sometimes it's your own folks.Think of the, like, here's an example that is not maybe as emotionally close for a lot of our Western listeners.
For a lot of us who have never traveled to Tehran, if you want to see a real example of info hazards, just think of the scientists who have been murdered in recent decades entirely for their knowledge
of nuclear technology entirely because of the, beat me here Triforce, of the sh** in their heads.Between 2010 and 2020, not counting the fascinating story of the guy who got gassed in 2007.
Between 2010 and 2025, separate Iranian nuclear scientists were killed, likely by foreign assets.You can guess who, if you wish.They weren't murdered because they were committing criminal acts.
They weren't murdered because they were Wilson Fisk kingpins.In fact, they were all professors and physicists, a lot of espionage. that doesn't make the headlines is entirely about technology.
Yeah, oh, and we've talked about all of these except for one back in 2014, guys.That's crazy to think about.You can go back and listen to our episode early, early on in the feed called, Are People Really Murdering Scientists?
I just want to predict one good thing.I'm so tired of us predicting terrible things.
Well, in this case, it was, yeah, I guess we predicted the last guy's death, but we were just going out there going, these guys are all getting murdered.I don't know if y'all noticed. Another scientist that was murdered, his name was Majid Shariari.
This person was killed on November 29th, 2010.This was a nuclear engineer specifically specializing in neutron transport.And Majid was killed by a bomb attached to his car from a motorcycle.So imagine a magnet or something.
He just slapped it on there and then rolled off.
And on that same day, another professor, Fereydoun Abbasi, survived a one-to-one identical attack in Iran, or in Tehran.They meant to get them both to send a message.Cough, cough, whomever.Cough, cough.
So, number three is Daroush Razinyajad, July 23, 2011, a physicist. another expert in neutron transport fatally shot by a gunman riding by on a motorcycle.And just to pause here, you're going to hear a lot of motorcycle stuff.
When you hear about shenanigans in Tehran, uh, bad faith actors in Tehran, uh, love motorcycles the way the Russians love third story windows.
Well, it's also a zippy way to evade the authorities.We have them here in Atlanta all the time. these kind of like gangs of like dirt bike riders and ATV riders that just are able to wreak havoc and then duck through neighborhoods and stuff.
It's a super efficient way of evading capture.
We've got Mostafa Ahmadi Roshan, January 11th, 2012, a professor researching the making of polymeric membranes for gaseous diffusion, which is part of a process for enriching uranium to make, ding, ding, ding, nuclear weapons, killed by a bomb, also attached to his car from a motorcycle.
It's not the door dash you want Jesus Christ Yeah, and rounding out with another one here from November 27th 2020 Another scientist was killed.He was a nuclear physicist head of Iran's nuclear program Oh Target on your head.
Don't be the head of Iran's nuclear program.I guess he was fatally shot by a remote-control machine gun Yep Yep, a remote control machine gun.That is Moshin Fakhri.It's a breaking bad.I can't say his name.His name is Moshin F. You can look him up.
Yeah.Moshin Fakhri.Pardon our pronunciation.We are not native Farsi speakers.These are just a few tragic examples of people who were murdered for the thoughts inside of their head, not necessarily for any criminal action they took.
And while the thoughts, these info hazards, did not themselves, by nature of their existence, harm the people who held these thoughts, other external forces knew what these guys knew, or suspected these guys knew, and that triggered bloody, brutal action as a result.
It is very dangerous to be the wrong kind of professor, right?And you have to be aware of folks.Again, a lot of the skullduggery you read about that gets the headlines or whatever, the James Bond stuff is not real.
What is true is the immense scrutiny paid to certain types of research all around the world.
And now we know that people possessing sensitive information can truly fall victim to real-life harm from external factors, but we want to take a moment here to note that internal factors can have deleterious effects.You don't need some kind of
spoopy spy agency getting mad at you or hiring a guy on a motorbike.I think we're all pretty taken with the work of Fletcher Wartman, uh, writing for psychology today, diving into the concept of internal means street name, intrusive thoughts.
Yeah.That includes stuff like, uh, an inescapable traumatic memory that rears its ugly head and causes you to react emotionally or even physically.Um, also more innocuous stuff like a earworm, like a song that won't get out of your head.
Hmm.Yeah.This idea, this idea is strange because we've set it up as some sort of sci-fi thing or some sort of intelligence, you know, spy who came in from the cold type stuff, but
The memes themselves, I love what you're pointing out there, the memes themselves, those recurring inescapable thoughts can be damning on their own in the real world.
The phrase meme, we talk about this a little bit in an episode on thought forms or tulpas, The word meme comes from a guy named Richard Dawkins, famous, somewhat problematic geneticist.
He wrote this book in 1976 called The Selfish Gene, and he took the word meme from the root of memo, memory, mimic, and Wortman has this great quote summing it up, which I
I don't know, like we're going straight to our pal Wortman here because he sums it up the best.
I think the quote is basically a meme is an idea, the kind of idea that endures over time, like a memory, which can be copied or mimicked and shared like a memo.
Did you know what, I guess a picture of some kind of oligarch falling out of a window or an Iranian scientist getting shot by somebody that's definitely not Mossad.
Yeah, but I mean, it's funny too.I mean, I'm sure Dawkins had this in mind, but the concept of memetics, you know, as a theory of social evolution, essentially based on Darwinian principles, complex systems, you know, all of this kind of stuff.
I guess maybe this, that whole field came from Dawkins.It just seems like it already was a thing, but I don't know.Everything that I'm reading about it does hearken back to the selfish gene and Dawkins' universal Darwinism.
I think that's where it got the, Again, language, we were talking about this previously, language communication, one of the earliest human technologies, right?
So I think maybe what we're seeing there is the idea of having the right language to hang our rough nonverbal concepts upon, you know, like the way you put a coat on a coat rack. The concept here essentially is, can an idea be dangerous?
We believe so.Every idea that you have ever had, folks, human and non-human alike, is simply this.It's your own secret recipe. of arrangement, curation, and analysis of fact, mixed with some degree of fantasy and speculation.
Again, like, check out our episode on thought forms and tulpas, wherein some of us, cough, cough, argue that thoughts themselves can be considered living things, even though they are intangible.
Like, two people in love, is that experience, that thought of loving each other, is that a living thing?
It's a good question.It always makes me think of this fantastic sketch.
on Monty Python's Flying Circus, I'm sure I've mentioned this before, where there's this joke that exists that is so funny that anyone that hears it or reads it will die laughing.
And in the sketch, the government, the military gets ahold of it, but the generals have to have it in individual pieces so no one sees it all at once.
And it's used, of course, shenanigans and just, it's Monty Python, people accidentally read it and then drop dead and all this stuff.But it's really funny.And they clearly are commenting on this exact kind of thing.
Yeah, they're getting some stuff from The Yellow King, right?Shout out, uh, oh gosh, Chambers, right?Isn't Robert W. Chambers who wrote The Yellow King?
Famously sort of memed in its own way in season one of True Detective.
Yeah, and in The Yellow King, the entire
universe of that, which is very Lovecraftian, is it's orbiting around, that's a nice Carcosa reference, the idea that there is some sort of play, and if you read the play by the very act of experiencing that, you will go mad.
It's in a lot of modern horror, too.Things like It Follows, where, you know, this idea of a curse that can be transmitted, and that one, it is like a sexually transmitted kind of curse.Maybe that's a little different.
But The Ring, the videotape, the deadly videotape, that once you see it, you die in however many days.It's a big thing in, like, Japanese horror.A smile?Mm-hmm.A smile, absolutely.
Would be in order to grudge Juwan, I guess, in his original form.
Yes, sir. There's another article our pal Wartman has, Infohazard Warning, How Internal Memes Infect Your Brain.
And I think this stood out to several of us because it examines how and why some thoughts can become hazardous to an individual human's health, even if there are no immediate external consequences.
Yeah, that makes sense to me.That gets more into the psychology of this whole thing.I think I was trying to come up with a good example.
I think the way it becomes this kind of thing can become dangerous is in interpersonal relationships often when you've got some and it is associated with trauma.A lot of times we I think we were talking about earlier where
Let's say you're in a relationship with somebody and you've been lied to before, so you expect a lie to come from another relationship or something, so you're almost reading too much into other people's actions because you expect to be lied to.
You're prepared to be let down, and you live your whole life in expectation of a thing that may or may not ever happen.
Yeah, that trauma response often comes into play, I think, with this stuff, because you've meme-ified...
some either specific action that somebody takes or some specific phrase that somebody says, I think it's especially dangerous when it comes to romantic relationships because they are, there are such similarities between each romantic relationship that if you've had one bad interaction, then the next one is going to have a lot of the same things happening.
So then your brain, sees bad stuff where it's actually really good stuff.I don't know if that's just at least one.
No, it's perfect.Two things on that.First, the old idiom, not necessarily an idiom, the old figure of speech.Someone help me with the correct word for that in English.ConspiracyDieHeartRadio.com.
A bad apple spoils the bunch is actually true because of the things, the chemicals and gases that bad apples emit. They do spoil the bunch.
Anyways, the second thing, the more important thing for our conversation this evening, we had an earlier exploration wherein we had this beautiful moment that still sticks with me, which is this, often due to those previous experiences, the insatiable drive to be pattern recognizers and story constructors,
we talked about how humans are rarely speaking with one another.They're speaking with their ideas of a person.They're speaking with their assumptions about a person's motivations.And I think that's a very disturbing and powerful thing.
All to say, absolutely agree with this conversation, absolutely agree with Wartman, the idea of a narrative.You know, humans love stories, maybe to a fault,
Humans have always only been the stories they tell about themselves and one another, which means by this definition, a communicable thought, a meme, with a bad or a damaging narrative can function as an info hazard.
And this is, we could argue, the formative root of a lot of mental struggles.
Communicable thought, Ben?Like a communicable disease?It's all right there.
Yeah, I mean you don't have to have some kind of old school fairy tale possession.You don't have to have intel the external world considers sensitive or dangerous.You just need a thing or an idea that will not leave you be.
And over time, to our earlier points, it can guide your actions.It can influence you toward increasingly irrational behavior.And we've all unfortunately experienced something like this.
What we're saying is science shows us each and every human mind is an ocean.It is an open ocean.
For anybody frightened of open oceans, be scared, because the real one's in your head, and sometimes sinister things are swimming in the deep.
Yeah, like giant whale.I talk about my nightmare, where I'm just on the open ocean, and I know there's this massive creature lurking beneath the surface.Even if it is a gentle giant, scares the hell out of me.
You just got to learn how to ride a whale, buddy.Nope.Good to go.Man, call me Pinocchio, dog.
Oh, I remember that.Hey, we just did a meme.That's cool.
He didn't like the whale.Maybe he did.No, he didn't like the whale.The whale ate him up.
Well, Pinocchio is kind of a terrible lesson for children.
Kind of a Jonah type story, now that I think about it.It never really occurred to me, but Jonah and the whale, that's sort of what happens to Pinocchio.Definitely some biblical undertones there.
Pinocchio misbehaves all the time, and then gets saved.
So did Jonah. That's the whole story.Jonah was sort of a dick, and he got eaten by the whale, and then the whale spit him up, and it made him see the error of his ways and worship God.
But does Pinocchio learn the errors of his ways?
He becomes a real boy.Is that an improvement?
It's a good question.He does become a real boy, and I think he's only gifted that by the Blue Fairy because he shows penitence.
I can't wait for anybody who has read the graphic novel series Fables to get back to us on Geppetto.Have you guys read Fables?
I'm familiar with it.I've meant to start it for years, and I have not gotten to it.You're reminding me to put it on my list.
All right.Hashtag, spoiler, 3, 2, 1, Geppetto's a huge villain.
Oh.Well, he is an odd cat, guys.Let's talk.I mean, real quick.Geppetto just has a character in fiction. He's, I guess he's sad.He needs a son.He's lost his, maybe he's not.It is weird to play God in that way though, you know?
But I guess he didn't make a deal with the devil to make Pinocchio come alive.Didn't the Blue Fairy just kind of come along and do it for him?He didn't like do some weird incantation.He just made a puppet.
I'm not at liberty to disclose specifics.Matt, what were you going to say?
Oh, no, I'm just thinking about another comic series where you can really see everything we've been talking about in action.It's a comic series that you can get in these little graphic novel compendium things called department of truth.
And it is just without spoiling it too much.It's based on a thing called the department of truth, where it's a basically secret government society, that attempts to make sure conspiracy theories aren't believed by enough people.
Like specifics about a conspiracy theory aren't believed by enough people because it does become a Tulpa thing that we're talking about, and it manifests in the real world.
let's say golem yeah like if there's a if there are enough people believing in flat earth is the example that the comic is then you could theoretically it travel out and meet the ice wall because it's now it exists because enough people believe
that belief shapes reality, right, is the primary proposition.Department of Truth is a banger, folks.And I think we were talking about that in a group chat with one of our friends earlier.Oh, yeah.
Volume 5.This one comes out in February.
Volume 5.Ooh, buddy.So what we are also saying is that given Bostrom's earlier definitions, we could rightly deem these Intrusive thoughts to be internal conspiracies, to be organic info hazards of their own.Ah, but then we get to the phrase, huh?
Organic.And this leads us to a second, more disturbing question.The one we asked right before things got crazy.What will info hazards look like in the future?Gentlemen, I suggest we take a word from our sponsor and I'll take a big swig of coffee.
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And we've returned.What will info hazards look in the future?Guys, how close will we get to the horror story of the yellow king?We're simply reading or viewing a thing will drive the audience mad, possibly to their graves.This is okay.
This sounds silly and dumb and laugh at me if you want, but
We've argued in the past with great validity that new breakthroughs in technology are pushing civilization closer and closer and closer to real-life analogs of things that were once considered purely supernatural.Precognition is on the way.
Telepathy is here.Doppelgangers, right?Oh, cloning, we're supposed to call it.It's happening.But info hazards are part of this trend as well.We got to draw people's attention
to a game called uh cyberpunk mainly because cough cough one of us cough cough just lost eight plus hours playing it for the first time i need to get back to it once they did all the updates that kind of fixed the game it is fantastic i played like maybe the first hour and a half two hours of it it is really really good
Yeah, any excuse to hang out with Keanu, I'm into it.What is it, Johnny Silver?Something like that?
Yeah, Keanu from earlier, Johnny Silverhands.
Yeah, Silverhand, Silverhands.
Matty Two Hands, meet Johnny Silverhand.
In the world of cyberpunk, cybernetic augmentation is widespread and normalized.Like, imagine a world where not having some sort of electronic implant in your body is as weird as not having a smartphone today.
Ben, have you seen the Netflix cartoon, Cyberpunk? Yes.It's freaking phenomenal.
I reminded myself when you go back and watch it, but it addresses the politics of all of this kind of stuff from a level of like a school kid and like the rich kids that have the implants that he couldn't afford and having to get like counterfeit implants and all.
It is epically Akira level good anime.It's so freaking wild.
And I, I imagine here in the real world, a lot of us know someone who doesn't have a smartphone for one reason or another, but it is eccentric, right?Like you, you would say most, most people you guys know has a smartphone, right?
Hmm. Yeah, it's certainly the norm, but then you have like folks like, what's that actor's name?Um, oh, geez, he's got the, he's got a very intense face.He, uh, he's got a, you know, he was in boardwalk empire.
He played the, uh, no, he played, he played the, um, the prohibition agent who Matt Frederick. No, stop it.It doesn't matter his name.Ron Perlman.It doesn't matter his name, guys.
The point is he actively eschews all that kind of technology, and it is a personal choice for his life and his mental health that he has discussed in interviews.
That's good, yeah, and I know a lot of us listening this evening have made a conscious decision to unplug in one way or another for, as you were pointing out, Noel, mental health.You know, if that is your mission, please do so while you still can.
Remember, just like Sesame Credit, this stuff is opt-in until it's not.That's where That's where we see this cyberpunk thing, which I do think is worth mentioning, even though it's, quote unquote, just a video game.
As a result, in the cyberpunk world, pretty much anybody can access a second universe through one way or another, right?You plug a thing in, you jack in, and you can experience all sorts of vicarious things.
You can get any question answered so long as you have the right access. But, just like the old gifts from supernatural entities in fairy tales, there is a cost.This doesn't come for free.
The access to this information and this power is a double-edged sword.As a result, in this game, people can transmit viruses directly to your mind.
But I mean, it reminds me too, I think a lot of influence is taken from the Catherine Bigelow film, Strange Days, which I believe they call it, Jacking In, or something along those lines, where you've got this really intense VR playback of sex, of violence, all the thing, whatever you could possibly imagine, and it becomes an obsession, and an addiction, and it's treated like drugs, which is kind of how it's treated in cyberpunk in a lot of ways.
I think it's a very interesting parallel.
What's the name of, there's a phrase for the, the sex thing in that world of brain dance.So what happens here is that we realize in this fictional universe,
I love that you mentioned the brain dance there, Matt.
In this fictional universe where viruses can be transmitted directly to another person's mind, you can deploy info hazards that could seriously influence people and change their behavior or injure people up to and including killing them.
And if we pull back, zoom, zoom, zoom, and we examine the real world, we look at things like Neuralink.Neuralink is proposing to give you this straight mind to net access while removing the awkward fumbling fingers of the middlemen of the flesh.
Your kids might believe you, but your grandkids are not gonna believe you when you say you used to have to type stuff with your fingers.
You know, and it's it's it's emergent technology as some of the tests have been successful.Some of them have been not so successful.But it's there.And it's coming to your previous point, Ben.
I mean, you know, we're at the like, very early stages of a lot of these kinds of future level, you know, precognition, what have you, and we're on that path.There's no putting the genie back in the bottle, right?
Hmm.How long will it be?How long will it be, folks?Until someone figures out, like until this stuff gets normalized, right, and spread or deployed to mass bases, how long will it be until someone
discovers the best way to deploy a virus through these systems.I know I use the word deploy twice, but it's only because it's the best word.
Further, will the creators of these systems be capable of predicting and preventing vulnerabilities before they are out in the world?Historically speaking, the answer is
No, no.The answer is no.You nailed it.
You nailed it because as we were saying earlier, the, the advantages on the offense here, because you are, if you're defending against this kind of info hazard, then you need to plug the gaps in a hundred possible places.
But if you're the offense, you just need to get in through one.
Wow, dude.Okay, so I'm really glad you said that Ben.So I think another version of this, another thing that exists right now that is on the verge of potentially being even more dangerous and scary is just the concept of OSINT.
or open source intelligence, which is that thing we've discussed many a time on this show, but the various apps and websites and places on the internet you can go to get an individual human being's address, phone numbers, email addresses, all social and dating accounts, all family members, all associates, like basically the stuff that a landlord would use to assess you as a potential person who is going to rent from them, right?
that stuff exists.And I think until you have that moment of like, I'm just giving you my example.In my case, looking up the phone number of somebody we wanted to interview for a true crime show.
The first time you delve into that thing and you realize that all of that information exists, just easily accessible to anybody else out there on the planet.
it becomes a scary thing for you because not only do you think, oh wow, I could track down anybody I wanted to and learn anything I wanted to about them, if like in my case again for an interview, but anybody could do that for me, anybody.
Yeah.Not to mention that all of these data points can be, you know, collated instantaneously and overlaid on living human beings out in public through the use of VR goggles or, you know, augmented reality and stuff like that.
Shout out to the homebrew solution to metaglasses.The technology's already there.
there.It's like a heads up display.It's like Terminator vision.
But the real question is how to get the larger public to accept it.We are talking to you at the at the chasm of the erosion of privacy.
Oh yeah.But the whole point of that, of me saying this guys is that it's been memefied now on social media.And this is the only, this is only the stuff I've encountered.So tell me if I'm completely off base here.
It's usually a woman who appears very attractive in the video she's making and joking about how she already has like literally every piece of information about somebody before she ever goes on a first date.
Okay, ladies, let's get information.It's an old meme, but it checks out.It's real.
It's not a bad idea.I'm just saying, like, this concept of all of this, trying to put some of this stuff together, it is dangerous that that information is out there.It could be potentially dangerous for you to use that information.
Again, for me, one time, and now I think about it all the time, I think, oh, I could find out anything I wanted to on that person.And it's not necessarily even about using it.It's about knowing that it's there.
That's an info hazard.There we go.Now we brought it back.Yeah.This is a, it's a easy dragon to chase, but you have to remember again, it's Nora Burrows.Every time you feel like you're chasing the tail of the dragon.
The head of that dragon is right on your ass as well.
I hope it likes the taste of ass.You know it does.
You know it does.Classic dragon.Dragon thing, yeah.Yeah, we're right up on dragon folklore.You guys catch up.This is day one stuff.Humans are not the first of curious creatures. And you all shall not be the last.
Information is power, thoughts are weapons, and a great deal of conspiracy is found within those simple statements.The legendary info hazards do not quite yet exist, but we can argue humanity is slouching ever closer to the Bethlehem of singularity.
We're going to see. This folklore become reality and you know i love this was point out earlier student listeners you hang with us you kick it with us you recognize our greater mission we.
Only hang out to explore and understand the stuff they don't want you to know.We are also very aware that there's a greater issue at hand in this episode specifically.
There is a valid argument that without proper preparation, there is stuff you should not know unless you are girded against the consequences of learning these things.
Gird thy loins, conspiracy realists.Gild thy loins.Indeed.
Gild, gird, pierce.You know what?You're Australia.You run it how you see fit.Just don't hurt anybody.Here endeth the sermon and here begins your journey with We cannot wait to hear from you in our emails.
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I think it's interesting.
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