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Welcome to Namaste Motherfuckers, the only podcast where the worlds of work, comedy and well-being collide.The podcast where the life-changing stuff happens.
I'm your host Callie Beaton and this episode is called Crime After Breakfast and today's theme is crime. Before we get into it, thank you so much to everybody who has listened to and loved Jackie Morris on the podcast last week.
It's no great surprise that there is such a lot of affection for her and for her beautiful art and for her books and for any fans of her collaborator Robert McFarlane, her collaborator on The Lost Words among others, he is going to be on the pod next.
year so look out for that.Right back to today's episode and crime.In ancient Egypt laughing at a cat was a crime. Koala fingerprints are so similar to human fingerprints that the two have been confused at crime scenes.
In the mid-90s, a parrot was put into witness protection.It had previously been owned by a crime boss, had seen some things, and occasionally had a habit of talking about them.And Reindeer Noir is the genre name for a crime drama set in Lapland.
we must commission Baby Reindeer Noir immediately.
My favourite thing in the world is having meetings cancelled and I know I didn't cancel this one.
That's my guest today, Louise Minchin.Not flushing a public toilet after you've used it is a crime in Singapore.It's a crime in my house as well.
The switch to daylight savings increases your risk of a heart attack by up to 24% on the Monday after the time change.That's weird.But it reduces crime by 7%.
And Charles Earl Bowles was a 19th century American stagecoach robber who left poems at his crime scene, signing them Black Bart.
One verse went like this, I've laboured long and hard for bread, for honour and for riches, but on my corns too long you've tread, you fine-haired sons of bitches. Do you think that's our age or what is that?
Louise Minchin is most famous for her 20-year stint on BBC Breakfast's Red Sofa and she has also been the main news anchor on the BBC News Channel
and BBC One's One O'Clock News, as well as presenting The One Show, Five Live Drive, Real Rescues, and Missing Live.
She's taken part in a number of reality TV shows, including ITV's I'm a Celebrity, Get Me Out of Here, Channel 4's Time Crashers, and the BBC's Celebrity MasterChef.
Louise has written two non-fiction books, Dare to Try and Fearless, and was chair of the Women's Prize for Fiction in 2023. Last month, she released her debut novel, Isolation Island, a thriller set in the world of reality TV.
Louise and I talked about adrenaline, breakfast TV, news, sleep, endurance sports, female icons, crime writing, dog walking, reality TV, equal pay and reinvention.
But I started by asking her how big the audience was when she was presenting BBC Breakfast.
I don't know where the figures are now, but it was between, I laugh because it's ridiculous, between six and six and a half million.It's a lot.
I used to sometimes really intimidate myself if I went to a football match or go to a gig or something, a concert, and I'd look around and go, okay, so there's probably 80,000 people here, times that by X, whatever, and that's how many people watch telly.
But they're not all watching at the same time, and they're not all concentrating, are they?
No, but there'll be enough people concentrating that the pressure, I imagine, particularly with a sort of news job and a topical job, the pressure is on not to do a Joe Biden and muddle up your countries or your leaders.Oh my gosh.
Or say a word that's sausages that's not meant to be sausages.
Yeah, that's the bit.I mean, I found towards the end of my boardroom life, I was getting more and more close to saying a thing I shouldn't have said.
I just started thinking one of these days I'll just say what's on my mind with no filter and I'll be shown the door.
I think, what I would hope you see, is I think that sometimes about what the thoughts that I've had and haven't said, I think sometimes maybe we should say those things and actually you would have got maybe got a massive promotion but maybe that's just me being ridiculous.
Probably depends whether it was something empowering and subversive and a micro-feminist act or whether it was just a hugely sort of- Really rude.Really awful word that is not appreciated, so.
So did you, all those years you had on the red sofa and then you stopped it all a few years ago, have you ever looked back?
No. I mean, the only regrets I have, not me, I... No, do I look back?No, I'm so, it was, it was a decision I took a long time coming to, as I'm sure when you left the boardroom you did as well.
But it was one of those things when you know, you know, and I, the only thing I miss, apart from, I miss two things actually.
I miss the huge, that lovely BBC Breakfast audience, because I did feel like part of this huge family, a very, you know, and like a much loved and some, not by everybody, but a part of that family.And I really miss team.That's the thing I miss.
I miss having, you know, like, you know, it's like you work in TV, there's just so many people who are involved in the process and I miss them.
Yeah, I completely agree.Every time I drive past, I live very near the offices where I worked for years and years and years.That's why I live, that's why I live near here. at near there.
And every time I drive by, I mean, I still know loads of people there.So if I walk by, I'll often see someone coming out of the now paramount offices in Camden.
But I so miss those serendipitous little silly conversations you have when it's just a team you see most days.I keep saying that to my my kids, like the people you sort of have around you at work, it really matters?
Yeah, it does.It does really matter.And I'm still, you know, I'm still friends, I mean, for example, with Dan, we still talk, he'll always take a phone call of mine, if he sees me calling, whatever he's doing, he'll always take my call.
But yeah, it's just those little moments of human, I guess, a human connection and silliness, actually, that, you know, that sort of conversation you have,
10 to 5 in the morning when you're trying to make a cup of tea and it doesn't work and somebody else has been there all night.I just, yeah, it was, I loved those conversations and those friendships.
And does it absolutely bugger up your circadian rhythms doing that for as long as you did it?You must have just felt jet lagged for two decades, didn't you?
Oh, you've got the right words, yeah. Just unbelievably so.And when you when I was doing it, I had no idea how much was so much of my, you know, my sleep, my food, my exercise, my everything, and how absolute jet lag is the right word.
I was permanently, permanently tired. permanently catching up.And I think it took me, and it's not ridiculous because I've spoken to somebody who does know about sleep.
It took me two years to get over and catch up with all those 20 years of disrupted sleep.
I'm not surprised.And in those 20 years, you went through young children, getting seriously into endurance sports.I mean, you put your body through plenty of things alongside having that kind of a schedule.
Yeah, I did.The sport, it helped with it.Because you might think it would make me more tired, but actually, it really helped regulate lots of things, including probably my sleep and my physical and mental health.
But I used to say to the girls, I remember when I wasn't on breakfast. And they sort of look at me quizzically and go, no.And then I thought, and then I actually did the maths.
And in fact, Mia was only six months when I started and she's my first child.
So it's no wonder she didn't remember.
She's not going to remember that.
Yeah, exactly.And did you, because I, not to the level you have, but I, like you got back into sport in my forties and I've only run one marathon and you've done epic things. but trying to do all of that training alongside just a normal job.
I mean, my job was full on, but it was normal hours.So when were you, when have you been, and you've done so much in terms of pushing your body with endurance sports.So when the hell were you doing it, Louise?
Oh, well, you see, I had a secret weapon because I was at work when everybody else in my family and most of the nation were in bed.Right.
So it meant that I didn't realise it at the time, but I sort of had an extra, you know, I always divide my day into thirds.I always have done.I don't know why it must be the way my brain works.It's like morning, middle of the day, evening.
But I sort of got an extra one. So I had this big section in my day where I didn't have to look after the girls because a lot of the times they were at school.So that's what I did.
So when I got back from work, they would be at school and I would exercise then.That's how I managed to do it.
It seems like the bit you've crowbarred in to make an extra quadrant of the day is the bit when you might have been needing to be asleep. I did make it extra quadrant, didn't I?I made it into third.I mean, I'm no mathematician, but I could see that.
Yeah, I see that now.So we use how much I mean, I'm slightly fascinated with if I don't sleep, I can't, I just can't function.I've always managed to sleep.I met I've sort of forced my children to become sleepy babies and children.
because sleep was such a thing for me.And how much were you sleeping in those years?
I don't think I could have done it if I wasn't, it sounds really silly, but a really good sleeper.And by that I mean, I'm a napper.I'm champion napper.So I would go, let's say, I'll run into a quick day.
I get up at 3.46 and then I would be at work until get home.
I know it makes you feel sick, doesn't it?It literally makes me feel that jet lag sick feeling you get when you get up early for a flight.Yeah.
And it was, yeah, that feeling.And the 46, because the one minute made a big difference.I've heard others say that you do those schedules.
Have you?Yeah.Who was it?It was a Breakfast Radio host company I was talking to, maybe Zoe Ball, but somebody who said exactly the same, you know, 247 is very different to 245.
It's so silly.I mean, we're just messing, we're just trying to make a difficult situation.And I know people have really tough jobs and they do shift.
So, you know, it's not like I had a, you know, I had a really tough job, but it's just those hours are grueling.So I'd go, yeah, get back from, eventually once I'd done work, probably be back around 11.
And then I realized quite early on when I started doing it all the time, that if I went to bed then, which I was really tempted to do because of that sick jet laggy feeling,
I wouldn't see the light because by the time I woken up, it could be in the winter getting dark again.So I started doing exercise then.And then I would be really rigid about going to sleep in the afternoon for an hour and a half because of sleep.
I took sleep experts really seriously.You can imagine.They told me that that for my circadian rhythm was the kind of, you know, the right time, an hour and a half.
And if I slept for an hour and a half, I did actually sort of wake up feeling vaguely okay.But if I slept for two hours, I felt terrible, really terrible.
So I'd sleep for an hour and a half and then sort of join in the day, go pick up the girls from school, do all that, you know, whatever it was, helping with homework, cooking food, all the rest of it, chat, a lot of chat that time of day, which I loved.
And then would go to bed.And then I'd start getting emails about 7.30, 8 o'clock at night to tell me what was on the next day.So already your brain's beginning to rev up again. And then not really.
I mean, I would try to be upstairs by nine, but I wouldn't be try to turn the light up by nine thirty.But I wouldn't.You know, we're getting to ten o'clock.Yeah.You can see there's not enough sleep.Is it ten till three forty six?
Because you probably don't go to sleep at ten anyway.
So kind of five hours at night and an hour and a half in the day-ish.So maybe six and a half hours.And that's not enough for me.No, it's making me feel sick.I'm an eight hour.Yeah, I'm really.
And if you turned into an eight hour, are you slobbing around till 11 o'clock every day now?
Oh my gosh, I sleep so much now.And what's so nice is I had that two years when I would not wake up before 9.15 in the morning if I could possibly help it.
I now sometimes, and this is so joyous to me, wake up at 7.30 in the morning having actually had enough sleep.
Yeah, isn't that an amazing thing?And that really gives me joy.
Do you find there's a thing called sleep procrastination, isn't there, where people are meant to go to bed at 11 or whatever or 11.30 and then watch another thing, scroll through another thing, get a book out.
There's an actual phenomenon where we're conning ourselves out of bedtime.
Oh my gosh, I am that person, but I'm that person with books.I am an absolute addict.And I read in the, I go, so I supposedly go to bed at like 10, but then I have a bath and then, and then it gets to, it's really weird.
There's like this thing when it's always 11, 23, when I finish.And that's way too late.I should be in bed.
Well, I'm the wrong person to ask.I'm terrible.If I'm ever asleep before midnight, it's an absolute miracle.I'm absolutely terrible.
Travesty.And that's what I learned from the sleep.One of the reasons I gave up eventually was because I spoke to one of the sleep experts and he said, what would you normally do if you didn't have to do this job?What would you normally be doing?
And I'm so happy late at night and I'm so happy having a long lion.And he just turned around and said, you're struggling with biology. And when someone, you know, a proper grown up sleep specialist tells you that, that kind of went in.
And I just thought, that's not a great thing to be doing age whatever I was 50 something.
And did it, I'm fascinated by the fact you still managed to push your body hard into and I know that becoming fit.
is really good for you and it really helps you sleep and it helps your sort of rhythm, but just fitting all that in and pushing your body as hard as you've pushed it.I mean, as I said, I've only done one marathon and I've done, you know.
Well, well done you, because we're in the, we're in the, we're in the, I mean, how many people have done one marathon?It's something like 1% of the world or something, or even less.
Everyone on this podcast episode's done one. No, I'm just on this episode.Yeah, not all of the podcasts.You don't have to have too much to be on the podcast.It would limit me a lot with comedians.
But do you, even that, I just, the balance between it being incredibly healthy to push yourself that hard, but a bit unhealthy because you're really pushing yourself beyond what a human being should comfortably run.
So there is a bit of a balancing act when you get more obsessively into sports.
Agreed.I totally agree with you.And actually looking back now, I think I really in those years needed to have my foot on the pedal.And I really did have my foot on the pedal in the way that I do not have now.Like I cannot be bothered to run fast.
I just can't.I just can't push myself.And I love running.I much prefer it now because, for example, and this sounds bonkers, I know, to lots of people, but my daughter and I were running a half marathon this weekend.
And, you know, I'll walk loads of it.We'll chat.We'll just have a nice day.I just can't be bothered.And I see all these people doing all, you know, like really sweaty.Oh, my gosh, I've just done 5K and they're all sweaty.
I just can't be bothered with it.
Which one are you doing?Which half marathon?I'm doing the... Are you doing one?No, I'm not doing one.No, I'm just... It's sort of gone out by then, so no one's going to stalk you.I'm doing the Royal Parks half.No, don't worry.The Royal Parks half.
Oh, I like that.I've done that one before.Have you done it before?No.I'm really excited.It's a really nice one.It's a really nice one and you get good sort of boosts from audience, not to the degree of audience, crowds.
Not to the degree of the marathon, but it cheers you up.The comedian, I love that.My audience, follow me.
You see, I wish I could be more like that because I think part of the reason I don't run much now is because I was so competitive with myself and so into speed.Were you?
And it's sort of relentless, really, and you're bound not to be able to stay as fast as you get older.So it's inevitable at a certain point you won't keep getting faster.So I very much applaud your way of doing it.
That is a really, I mean, if I can get that message through to people, because I do have friends who just pushing them.
And actually, the thing that I know, for example, is that actually, sometimes a day off is way better for you to not be tired, like I was when I was on breakfast to actually have a day off.
And then you probably just have a much, you know, be much better, much healthier, much everything else.So I've come a long way from those days when I had my foot on the accelerator.It's good.
And did you, in terms of your sport, I also, like you, didn't do as much in my adult life.You had a sort of hiatus in your younger adult life and then picked it up again at 45? Yeah.30 years off.Yeah.Similar to me.
I mean, I did bits, but yes, I got sort of seriously into running at 44.Um, having not really done it since I was at school.
And I've heard you talk about the fact that one of the things that got you out of sports was your perception and feelings about your body as a teenager.
Yeah.My lovely, muscly shoulders, which I'm really happy to have now.
I would give anything to have lovely, muscly shoulders.
I really would. I mean, I can even say that is kind of a weird thing as a woman, isn't it?It's so counterintuitive for all of us, but they are muscly.And that's exactly why I gave up because I saw them when I was 15 and used to be, I didn't like it.
I was a real tomboy.I loved climbing, I loved being outside like I do now, climbing trees, splashing mud.And I was always caught, and I used to be caught and had really short blonde hair and People used to call me, all right, laddie.
And I didn't like that, didn't like it.And I just saw the shoulders and I thought, oh gosh, they make me look too masculine.I know what it is, swimming.I'm going to give it up.
I've got a very close friend, exactly the same.She was a brilliant swimmer for her school and exactly the same age as you gave it up.And actually her mum used to say to her, it was making her look masculine.
So she even had a voice at home telling her that it wasn't a good look.
I had voices, I had voices.
Can you imagine how we would be if our daughters were there with muscly shoulders swimming for their school?We'd be cheering them on and making them never give up.Exactly.Pushy mums.You may not give up.
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One of the things that struck me in your book, Fearless, was about... I forgot we were meant to be talking about books, weren't we?Yeah, we are going to get to the one book.I suddenly thought, oh yeah, we're meant to be talking about books.
We will get on to the book.People are much more likely to read the book if they just love you from the conversation.Can you see how much I'm worried about it?
But Fearless, your book Fearless, what struck me about it was that it's about what we do with our bodies as women, not how we look, which is so obvious but such a brilliant message to see embodied in all those stories.
I just, exactly.And there was, I think it was Mimi Anderson, who is one of the world's most accomplished endurance runners.And we should all know her name.
And that's why I wrote the book, because there are amazing women out there breaking huge barriers in sport, doing incredible things.And we never spoke to them on BBC Breakfast.
I just don't think we celebrate female stories of bravery and endeavour as much as we do men.And Mimi, said to me, she said, and she had really, you know, she was really honest in her own books.
And when she talked to me, she had very serious issues, body image issues.And she says, I just look at my body now and think what it's done.You know, it's got me across, you know, she's run across countries.She's got three children.
I think four grandchildren, you know, look at her body, what it's done.It doesn't matter what it looks like.It's what it has done and can do.That's really important.
And what were you in that?I mean, there are amazing stories in that.Well, to anyone who hasn't read it, the premise of the book.
Yeah, no, you.I'm gonna ask you, yes.Oh, me?
Yeah, but it's my book, so that would make sense.So the premise of the book, it's called Fearless Adventures with Extraordinary Women.
And I'd noticed on BBC Breakfast, as I just said, we never had women sitting on the sofa who were breaking down barriers in sport. And I wanted to do that.And I could have spent another 20 years trying to get those stories on the sofa.
But I just thought and talk about them.I just thought, well, you know what, I'm going to be giving up anyway.What I'm going to do is I'm going to go out, I'm going to meet these women.
And because, you know, I could have done it on Zoom, but let's face it, I love a bit of an adventure.I want to go and do what they love with them and celebrate each of them in a chapter.So with Mimi, for example,
I'm not a great runner, and she was obviously clearly a good runner.I'm not a good runner, an extraordinary athlete, and with Guinness World Records.Luckily for me, she was injured.So we cycled across Argentina together.
I mean, it's just bonkers, isn't it?And that was amazing.So yeah, the premise of the book is to celebrate those stories.
That's a hell of a thing though.Just take me, just going back to that a minute.So you don't just get on a bike and cycle across Argentina.
No, because you'd find that really hard.It is really hard.Yeah. Luckily, I've done loads of cycling and you mentioned, you know, I've done, I've done quite, I mean, I've done lots of different extreme triathlons and I do actually really love cycling.
Is that your favourite?I keep interrupting.I think we've got time.
Is that your favourite of the triathlon? So triathlon is swimming, cycling and running.That's a good question.It's definitely, it's a sort of toss.Well, I think actually that cycling is my favorite.
I'm best at swimming and I do love swimming, open water swimming, but cycling, there is something so special for me about being able to get on the bike in your own two little legs and cycle eight, 900 miles or whatever it is.
That just blows my mind that I can do that. You can really go far on your bike.So I love cycling.
So how far was the crossing Argentina?What was the distance?
I think it was, I can't remember.I think it was, it was either 800 or 900 miles.We did about a hundred miles a day.And that's a lot that can be sort of up to, I can't even remember how many hours a day, but it's, it is relentless.
And what I love about that is that when you're doing, and that's again, why I've slowed down in sport, when you're doing something like that, you just get in this zone that that is all you're doing.
All you're doing is cycling and your thoughts can be calm or you could be looking at the, I remember the galloping horses on the amazing ranches or whatever it was, or cycling down vast, beautiful mountains or vineyards.That's what you're doing.
And for me, it's such a peaceful place.That's why I love doing all those endurance and challenging things.
It's definitely the ultimate in mindfulness, isn't it?There is no way you can be anywhere other than present.
And I find that whether it's running and just putting one foot in front of the other or doing scales on the piano, the sort of easy, not the easy bits, but the bits where it's just getting on with it and getting the job done, you're sort of ticking off a little to-do list with every step and all you can do is be in it.
And that's a big holiday from real life.
And I think that's something we've really stepped away from, haven't we, especially in the world we live in now, where, you know, this constant, you know, this, my phone, I'm addicted to my phone, I'm addicted to just all the time, overloading my mind.
So, so brilliant to have found a place where I unload it or just, just press pause.
And also seeing literally immersing yourself in those other worlds and other people and an enterprise that's so intense with somebody you otherwise would never have met.
I mean, that's a real, I think for any of us, these worlds keep getting bigger and more full of curiosity.That's a massive, massive, joyous thing, isn't it?That as we keep going through life, we try more and more things.
It was an absolute joy.It was a joy to meet all of them.There's 18 different women in the book.I mean, I don't have any favorites at all, but we've become really good friends.
We've still got the WhatsApp going, but I learned something from each of them.And what I wanted people in the book is to read that book and to be inspired.I went to something the other day talking about it.
The conversations that were going on the room when I left the room were all about, right, what's my challenge?What am I going to do?And they don't have to be big.They don't have to be huge.It could be walking down a river or whatever it is.
It's your challenges, your space.It's so empowering.I'm getting a bit... I can't speak anymore, can I?But I just found the whole thing so empowering and so inspiring.Loved it.
And you did the ice diving, I think that, I'm sure lots of people have said to you, that's the bit that sound, I mean, to me, I'm not a big fan of water.I've jumped out of planes, but you wouldn't get me scuba diving.
But I know you're a qualified diver and I, yes, I wouldn't have that capacity.Not lung capacity and not daring capacity.
Listen, I've never jumped out of a plane and I'm not planning to.So there's a lot of respect for you.
So the free diving is the one thing that people, and I'm so, I want to do something around the free diving, which I want, I can't really say, but I want to do something fun with that because it's the one thing that absolutely captures people's imagination.
And I did it with this amazing athlete called Kath Pendleton, who is an ice swimmer, and she's got a Guinness World Record for swimming a mile in the Antarctic in just her cozy.I mean, she's awesome. And then she, I'm not very good in the cold.
And she said, let's go.I asked her what to do.And she said, let's go free diving under ice.How did you feel in that chapter, Callie?
Just panic stricken.I mean, it makes me feel like I can't breathe, even though I feel the cold and the claustrophobia and the dark.
And for me, yeah, panic would ensue, which I don't know much about free diving, but I'm guessing stopping breathing and panic isn't a good thing.
Yes, of course.Well, yes, you, well, I mean, you were clearly exactly right.Yeah, exactly.Panic. So free diving is when you basically go underwater and you can do lots of different things.
You can go deep, you can go a long distance, you can do lots, just hold your breath underwater, it's just free, it's free diving.Lots of things to say, it is supremely dangerous.
So you have to be a qualified free diver, which I wasn't, and I am now, and you have to dive always with a buddy.So always say like health and safety, right?But I just, again, for me, there was something so incredibly,
shockingly terrifying about my first free dive out of the pool was under ice, and it was a meter of ice, and it was in Finland, and it was in the dark.So there's so much wrong with that.
But for me, it obviously triggered something in my brain, which was A, terror, but B, joyous, endorphins.I mean, when I did it, I came out 25 seconds later, laughing my head off.
because it obviously clicked something in my brain that just makes me really excited.
And is it, well, it's like when you first jump out of a plane and you get on the ground and almost everyone wants to go straight back up again.And you did it again straight away, didn't you?You immediately did it again.
I wonder, so in that, you can tell me what your 20, I don't know how long it was falling out of the plane.I mean, I imagine it was probably about the same maybe as me, but tell me a sec.But yeah, it was that first seconds of absolute terror.
Oh my gosh, I'm never going to get out of it.And then, wow, I'm in this incredible space.I feel like I'm out of space.It's so dark.It's so calm.It's so peaceful.Oh my God, I'm going to die.Is that, how did your, how did your skydiving go?
Yeah, I mean, I did loads and loads of them, hundreds of them.And you, because I got really addicted to it. And when you see the amazing thing about skydivers, when you see formation skydiving, your free fall is only about a minute.
You don't get very long, even if you go up to the maximum altitude you can without oxygen.And people do skydive from higher altitudes with oxygen, but it's a sort of different sport, really.
but sort of within the normal realms of skydivers, sort of the height you can go to depending on weather conditions.Yeah, you've got about a minute.
So when you see those, I never was a formation skydiver, but when you see that, they've managed to get out, get in, do that incredibly quickly.They've not got sort of five minutes to bugger about getting it right.
But they used to be, I don't know if, I guess with free diving, obviously I'm guessing you learn in a pool under, you know, with managed conditions, but nothing would prepare you.
for the cold, the dark, the finish, waters, the fact you're really doing this under a meter of ice.And similarly with skydiving, you practice on the ground, all your stuff, but it's not the same as jumping out of a plane.
And there's a real sensory overload for the first few seconds, and that diminishes with every skydive you do.It starts to be normalized.
Because I imagine sensory overload is not a great thing to have when you're trying to have your wits about you freediving.
It's really interesting what you say about the sensory overload because that's what it is.And that's probably why you want, you know, why you get all that adrenaline, isn't it?
But yeah, with free diving on the, on the, you're absolutely right on a serious note, the last thing.So, so you have to hold your breath and you hold your breath at the top of your lungs and movement uses up the oxygen that you've got even thoughts.
So actually your thoughts have to be calm and your heart rate has to be calm.So all this stuff that is like crazy sensory, your brain on fire is exactly not what you should be doing.
And you're thinking, presumably, that there must be a point then in that 25 seconds, which probably sounds to some short, but when you think of what you're doing in that 25 seconds, when you think a whole skydive, the freefall is only a minute, a lot happens.
And there must be, so there's a point at which you are, you could neither go back nor forward without being, yes, so you've got to, you've got to,
And is there, could you go back if five seconds in, was there a physical way to just turn back if you'd wanted to? Oh, I love these questions.
Yes, there was, but, yeah, there was.But by the time, because what you do is you pull yourself under the ice, and because you're so buoyant, I was wearing a wetsuit, I immediately got pushed up against the ice.
So I couldn't actually really maneuver myself or swim.So that's what my first panic was.And I had to, I realized very quickly, because your brain's very clever, that if you put your hand on the ice and push myself down, I could swim on my back.
So, but actually if I'd started to try and turn myself round, it would have probably taken more time than just cracking on with it.Do you sort of mean, but your brain is thinking what I love about those.It sounds silly, but there's 25 seconds.
Don't feel like 25 seconds.It feels like about an hour.And I wonder if the skydiving is the same feeling.It's so intense.
It's so overwhelming that actually there's so many thoughts that go through your head, but yeah, you could, you could have turned around, but that I would not recommend turning around.You're much better to calm down and keep going.
Yes, that's definitely the case when you jump out of a plane it's really best not to want to get back into the plane.There's nothing you can do.There's one direction of travel.
Yeah, it's like a whole movie happens in that time and there are things also because you're trying to think about safety as well so you've got all the things you know, you're meant to be doing a lot.
I think you're not you're not just sort of hurling yourself in and out.There's loads of training and there's loads of stuff you're thinking about.And I'm sure.Yeah, exactly the same for you.
So you're going through all your drills and your stuff and you're sort of executing a maneuver with military precision.
Yeah, exactly.Exactly.But I expect they have the same buzz, don't they?Both of them.
Oh, total.But yes, completely.I mean, any of us who have do you think you have an addictive personality?
Uh, have I got an addictive personality?I know that I really like adrenaline.I mean, like you're a comedian, you, you know, you put yourself out there.Yeah, exactly.You're an adrenaline junkie.I wouldn't say, yeah, I'm adrenaline junkie.
Not a junkie junkie, just an adrenaline junkie.
I mean, thankfully, because, and then so for example, you know, you walking out on stage, I imagine you must have that whole like, I mean, I'm putting myself in your shoes, you speak for yourself, but you know that it's like falling off a cliff, you don't know quite how you're going to land.
And that I had every day when the red light went on, you know, I have to perform now and there is just no option.And actually for me, that was really, very exciting, is the probably best way to put it.
Did you still have those, because I find the more I gig, the less I have that to the point I sometimes have to really make sure I am in a bit of a, you're about to go from backstage to on stage, this is a thing, because if your body and your mind aren't thinking it's a thing, that's when it doesn't go so well.
Did you find it was like a sort of Pavlovian reaction, the light goes on and you click into that feeling?
I did pretty much because I think I mean, you know, you definitely get better.You know, when I first started, obviously I would get really nervous, but I would still get nervous because I think.
You've only got to think there's 6 million people watching you to make you still nervous.But nerves for me were motivating and made me concentrate and also really respectful.I mean, I was telling people really serious stuff sometimes.
So I think they're part of the whole thing.And I think you're right.The day you lose those nerves is the day you've probably lost respect for what you're doing in some ways.
And the whole reason to do it I mean I always think that actually what nerves equate to it's the kind of primal. our sort of lizard self's way of turning up.
It just means you've just, everything else gets drowned out and I've got to be present and I've got to do this.And that is what adrenaline will do for you.It'll just get you focused on the job in hand.
Everything else gets drowned out and it makes you perform.And that's what it's for, isn't it?
That's what it's for.So when people say they're nervous, I say, well, you know, it's not a bad thing.As long as you can control the nerves and they don't make you not be able to perform or whatever it is, then it's not a bad thing.
Did you find we started the conversation talking about the sort of difference in ambition and whether that's age or whether it's that we've got other interests or what it is, not that we're not both doing well in our lives, but we're doing it differently.
We've both elected to reinvent.And do you think there's an element where, did you find the gap between you, in the car on the way to the studio or you sitting on the couch at home the night before and you on air?Did that gap get bigger?
Did you find it a bigger effort to go from naught to 60 or did it always just feel natural?
I don't think I did find it a bigger effort.No, I don't think I did.What I didn't realize when I was doing it was how much I kind of physically felt responsibility.
And the day that I left and I got, I literally sat down in the car and it was really the one of the most extraordinary feelings I've ever had in my life.I felt like this avalanche of
tension and responsibility and so many things just just slid off my shoulders that I had no idea I'd been carrying around.
I mean maybe an inkling and of course that's probably one of the reasons I didn't I wanted to stop but I had no idea it literally physically had an impact on me.
I'm not surprised to hear it even just on the schedule alone, but also the level of what you were working on and the fact that every day you've got to be on top of everything.
So you can't ever be walking down the street and news story breaks and not have to think, oh God, that's going to be me having to be an expert on that in a few hours.
And it was, you're right, absolutely right, because, you know, you'd be an expert on, you'd never know, I mean, you know, something could break up, break in the morning at any point, and you're right, I'd have to, but my co-presenters were really brilliant with me, actually, both Dan and Charlie, for example, because, you know, I'd have that kind of, oh my gosh, you know, not oh my gosh, but, you know, I would sort of think, oh gosh, do I know the answer to this?
And Charlie, I remember very clearly just going,
like you know the answer, like he wouldn't have the answer but I would always somewhat in that my brain would be able to bring back information whether it was names or it was places or it was stories or it was and he actually it was really he was so he did that a few times and eventually I was like oh my gosh I do have the answer if this is okay I can do this.
Um, so he was really, really empowered me in that actually.But yeah, it was, um, it was a lot.It was a lot.And that whole thing, I couldn't go on holiday and not read the news or whatever.That was all the time I had to be, all the time.
Because then I'd be back and something would have happened two weeks ago.And if I didn't know about it, I just looked like a complete idiot.It's very motivating.
Exactly.I know for sure.Let's not get found out.And do you find since you've stopped that job that you just, you still keep all over the news or you couldn't give a shit? I'm sure you give a bit of a shit.I'm sure you know that.
I'm sure you know, you know, something going on in the States right now.I'm aware.
I'm aware.But my dad said to me yesterday, he was asking about something.I can't, I can't remember what it was.He goes, so why are you, are you listening to the news at the moment before you ask the question?Because often you'll go, blah, blah.
I'll go, really? I don't care.
Did they find it, did they live vicariously, because my parents are massive fans of what of the podcast and all the things I do and did your parents, they must have been really proud of what you did, did they find it sad when you weren't on the couch on telly every day?
No, no, I don't think so.
I think they realized that it was, you know, that it was time.But no, they don't.But yeah, the news, gosh, honestly, that relentlessness was just something else, to be honest with you.
And that's, again, another thing I've managed to just not have in my head.
But you, so you replaced, and by the way, before we talk, we are going to talk about your book, not least because we share a publisher.And if we don't talk about the book between us- Oh gosh, they'll kill you.Yeah, they'll kill us both.
They'll be like, what did you need?You're both headline women.So we will talk about it.
But I just, one of the many things I've loved about watching your career was what you did in terms of the equal pay sort of debate and fight and the way you took that on with, with data rather than emotion.
It was so, it felt like you were sort of fighting a battle for many others to come as well as for yourself.
Yeah, that was, I mean, you know, that was not without the realms, you know, again, back to the sport, actually, that really helped in that battle, because sport is about data, actually, isn't it?Do you see what I mean?
You know, and I was particularly interested in that time, but what it gave me, endurance sport, particularly, was an ability to just sit in, tough it out.And you know, I fall off my bike and I get back on it.And I just thought,
I'm just going to dig in here.
And sometimes I would think they don't, you know, if they could actually see in my head and realize that this was not something that I was going to give up at any point until, you know, I made it so, or whatever, that the person, the two people sitting on the sofa, doing the same job, get the same salary.
I wasn't, I just wasn't going to give up until that happened.So, and I'm so, you know, I'm so delighted and I, and I know, you know, there is still issues and all the rest of it. you know, we made progress.
How was it within then the BBC?I mean, when you're campaigning in that way and doing what you were doing, is there a fear that the hand that feeds you is going to make things difficult?Or did it not feel like that?
There was a fear, but I didn't, that was, I wasn't going to be swayed by that.
which probably sounds a bit, I don't know, I mean, just mad probably really, but no, there was a fear, but also it wasn't like I was taking on my immediate bosses or anything because they were not the people who'd made the decisions.
So there was definitely a differentiation between people I worked with on BBC Breakfast and the wider machine.And it was the machine that I was taking on rather than my actual people I worked with.
When you found out, I remember, I won't say which board I was on, but there was a time at which I was on a board with a man who, between us, we were both sort of joint managing directors of a company that was a subsidiary of a bigger company.
It'd probably be easy to work out what I'm talking about now, but never mind, it's a long time ago.
And we found out at the end of the year when we got our bonuses, only because he and I got on well, and he sort of went, oh, it's great, I've got whatever it was, and I'm going to get my whatever it is, helicopter.And I was like, what?
And he'd been given 75% more than me, even though I ran the side of the company that had had a bigger profit that year.So even if you just did it on performance of the company, it was the wrong way around.
and I raised it and it got addressed, but I did feel, well I feel actually more emotional talking about it now, but when you started to join the dots up and realized all of that, was there not a massive sort of resentment and fury?
I can't believe that happened, by the way, and well done you.
It's a long time ago, not that that's okay.This is over 20 years ago.
No, but it does, it has an impact, doesn't it?It has an impact.For me, it wasn't, there wasn't like a really key, the only really key moment was when, because I'd realised this a long time and it had already, I'd already, you know, been kind of like,
fighting, whatever, raising my hand, calling them out for some time before.It was the big reveal when the BBC had to say that who was paid over £150,000 a year. And they were very, very concerned about it, and all the rest of it.
But what happened on that day was, it was when Amal Rajan was telling me about the figures, and it became entirely clear in the when he was delivering his, you know, piece to camera, whatever, I'm talking about his report, that
It was not just my story.That was the that was the kicker for me, that it was the story that women at the BBC did not get paid the same for the same job as their male counterparts.That was the kicker.
And I just thought, right, OK, done this trying to sort it out.Now, this is the time that I will dig in, because it for me, it's not you.It's not you're much more empowered, aren't you, when you're fighting on behalf of more than you?
Yeah, when the picture is bigger.
And I think the other reason that we know we have to keep making a stand or those who we now have left to do that continue to make a stand, it's not just making progress.
I think there's a serious risk at the moment that we're going backwards with lots of things.Yeah.That's really quite terrifying for our daughter's generation.
I totally agree with you.I totally agree with you.And, you know, I still hear stories, you know, really senior women who know the facts and are still trying to fight them in their own, in their own, wherever they are.
And it's just, you just can't believe that we still have to, because it's not just drawing the line in the sand.You've got to like, this is really bad analogy, by the way, put concrete in it.
Yeah, for sure.And bury some people under it.No, I did not say that. So Isolation Island, talking of dead people.Let's talk about your book, which is why you've come on the podcast, but we'll cram it in.So I have it here, I have your book here.
And I loved the audio as well.I would recommend it.Lots of comics listen to books because we drive so much.So we spend hours driving.So it's a really, really good listen as well.
But yes, so you've gone from writing two nonfiction books, Dare to Try and Fearless, which had a very different anatomy in terms of what you were doing and what you were depicting and documenting.
And then this is completely created out of your head without cycle rides across Argentina to write about. So how was it writing the book, first of all?
Well, first of all, I really I want to know your opinion, because you used to work in TV.And it's so I'll just give the quick pitch.Isolation Island, 10 celebrities sent to an isolated island off the northwest coast of Scotland.
They have to live in a. It's a reality TV show.It's going to be really, really tough in the depths of the Scottish winter.And my my favorite thing about it is what I did was there on their own on the island.The production team are on the mainland.
And anybody familiar with And Then There Were None by the incredible Agatha Christie will know what will happen next.A massive storm is going to come and they will get cut off.
So tell me what you think, because you've worked in TV, you've worked in shows a bit like that.
And I, and I wondered how much of this had to do with what was the chronology of this versus vis-a-vis you appearing on I'm a Celebrity, how, what was the... You're not going to answer are you?
I am going to answer, I am.
Okay, so Lauren, who as you will be aware is my main character, who's a 30-something investigative journalist.I love Lauren. Oh, good, good.I love Lauren.She's been living in my head ever since I moved with BBC Breakfast to Salford.
I wanted to write a thriller with her at the heart of it.And I had already put it in a newsroom environment, right?Went on I'm Celebrity in the castle in North Wales in 2021.And we got evacuated in the middle of a 100 year storm from the castle.
Right.And I came out that night.We were I was driven away in a taxi in the dead of night, in the pouring rain.And I just went, no, Lauren is not going to a newsroom.She's going to go to a reality show that goes wrong.
So Lauren existed.But the entire context, she existed.Yeah, she did.Well, I'm really pleased to hear she existed for that long because she comes across as very much.
I know Richard Osman talks about his characters as he knows them and he loves hanging out with them when he's writing about them.
and you really get that sense with your characters that it would have been a pleasure to turn up and be with them writing as much as it is to read.Not that they're all nice, by the way, but they are all very, very, very believable.
In answer to your question, well, it's funny, because I thought, I've worked in reality TV for a really long time.I've written about the fact that it's cost people lives in terms of mental health.
And before there was any sort of safeguarding, I worked on Survivor when it first came as Survivor, but before that it had been Expedition Robinson and someone had killed themselves in Scandinavia on the very first show.
And it sort of had to go quiet for a few years and come back with a different name.And there've been so many horrific stories of the impact that reality TV has had on people.
So even though yours is a different kind of a death, it is a deadly subject, actually.
And I wrote a piece in the Financial Times about it and got quite a lot of backlash, not least because my house has been paid for by television, you know, not just reality TV, mainly South Park, actually.But the fact is, I've taken that dirty dollar
And it has got better now, but we're still seeing that there are some pretty dark things that happen on big shows.And there's only so far you can take the safeguarding.
And also people who are mentally not very well are often extremely appealing as candidates and contestants.So that's the other problem is that you can't help the fact that it makes good telly.
And so producers are slightly drawn to the madness and the vulnerability.
So I was fascinated by that and by the fact that the premise of this, and obviously in this case it's because they get cut off, but the fact that a production team either can't or won't help, that is still pretty relevant, I think, in a lot of reality shows.
Well, I mean, what to say, but you're spot on.And what I didn't want to do, because you're absolutely right to point out, and can you please send me that Financial Times piece, by the way? Oh, I can look it up, can't I?
So yeah, let's put aside, because you're absolutely right to bring up all those really serious issues.But yeah, I think, I mean, I've been on these shows, haven't I?So you've produced them, you've made them, I've been in them.
And what I wanted to do was
actually, God, I don't know how to describe it, sort of play with them, actually, and do that thing, be the producer, because we know you, what you're doing as a producer, it's a bit like, for me, it's like the perfect murder mystery, locked-room drama, is a producer takes characters that they know are not going to get on and puts them in really difficult situations.
And that's exactly what I wanted to do.And I wanted to turn up the volume on that thought.
And was it because it's as much the, often I think in thrillers, particularly someone's first one, it's very much plot driven, maybe one or two plausible characters and it's all the kind of whodunit, but there's something much, much more subtle and nuanced going on in the way that we watch reality TV shows and we're sort of interested in everyone, even the quiet one or the one who we think's all right, but what are they up to?
And I think you really bring that to life in the book, which I think is a really hard thing to do because normally we get that by subtle people watching, that's the form. that you've had to bring us alive off the page.
Well, thank you.I mean, I had so much fun with, first of all, the cast, because I wanted it to be credible.I wanted to be just on the edge of credible.
So you can see, hopefully, all these characters, including the big signing from the production team is Nate.And he's a Hollywood superstar, isn't he?When he turns up on the beach, everybody, literally their jaws drop, because not only is he gorgeous,
He's hugely famous, but you can imagine that a production team would try to get someone like that.And I've been, I was in a show called Time Crashers, which you may or may not have seen, with Kirstie Alley.I mean, a huge star.
So I wanted everybody to be credible.I love, for example, the two, I've got these two social media stars who
you know, they sort of, they turn up, they make more money than anybody else who's gone onto the isolation island, onto Eileen Manick, as I call it.
But then you've got the older contestants who don't know who they are, they haven't got a clue, they completely underestimate them.So hopefully, as you're saying, there's lots of different layers going on that I had.
I think, you know, it's not, it's of course, you know, it's a thriller, someone dies.I'm not giving too much away.That's in the prologue, isn't it, Cally?
It is, I felt safe saying that.It's a good part of the premise.
Yeah.So hopefully it is.Yeah.And I thank you for saying that.So hopefully it is layered.Hopefully it is familiar and hopefully it plays true to both those genres.
The locked room drama with your cast of characters and also a reality show with your cast of characters.And I've kind of like collided the two and I think it hopefully works.
It definitely works.It's definitely an absolute page turner or listening to it in the car. keep listening, keep listening to the next chapter.
The process of writing it, obviously it's not the first thing you've written, but it must be incredibly different writing a work of fiction.Did you feel swept up in it?Did you have to really make yourself write it?
I mean, I'm finding I'm nearly, I've nearly finished my first book, which is nonfiction, and I have found it really challenging.
Oh, well done, first of all.
Well, let's say well done when it's published.
No, no, listen, if you've got, if you've got the thousands of words down, it's massive.I, yeah, no, I absolutely loved it.And you've spoken to so many authors and I was listening to the podcast you did with Rich Dosman.
I've spoken to so many authors about their characters and their books, etc.And I honestly used to listen to them with my jaw dropping, just thinking they're talking absolute rubbish when they say their characters are real to them.
But I just got absolutely swept up in it.They woke me up in the middle of the night.They did things I didn't expect.I knew who was going to die and why they were going to die.I thought I knew who killed them.And then it turned out I didn't.
It was somebody else.And the whole thing was a brilliant roller coaster. But there were moments when I absolutely hit brick walls and I would normally just go for a run and hopefully change locations and then move on again.
But no, I absolutely loved it in a way that I probably have not loved anything I've ever done before.
That's amazing.Well, that's good because you're a writer now, so it's good you like it.Yes, it's lucky, isn't it?It's really lucky.And did you, in terms of the plot, did you plot it?
Because it always fills with thrillers and all these clever little things that come back in your life, the startling moments.And obviously, you know what everything's working towards.
So is that the first point to say working out where it's all going to be tied up with a bow?
Well, yes, I mean, you have the pantsers and the plotters, don't you?I'm like, I'm both and I'm none.So I knew I was very clear on the cast.And I've mentioned a few of them.
And I knew definitely Lauren that she was going to be the our eyes and ears and our main character.And we, you know, we'd hear her thoughts.So that was really clear.I knew where they were going.
I had great fun making my own reality show and having huge fun with the bunch in like completely laying on all sorts of ridiculous things like You know, somebody has to be the abbot, the saints and the sinners.
So I knew that, you know, the monastery was going to be there and I knew I would have fun with that.And I knew a kind of a few of the things.There's lots of challenges, penances, obviously, I call them.
So I knew I knew the structure and I knew, as I say, who was going to die, why they were going to die.And I knew what was going to happen at the end.But then a lot of things changed along the way. a lot of dramatic things.
And that happens in the editing process as well, because you get your editors on board and they start pushing, going, you know, you didn't need a bit more from this person or a bit more drama here or whatever.That was brilliant.
But the best thing that ever happened was, as I say, I knew the ending and I knew I knew I knew the ending.And then I'm explaining it to my husband.
And I just literally can see him standing in the kitchen and I'm like, oh, my God, that is not what's happened.Something somebody else is behind all of this.
And it was just- So it was a reveal to you as well.
It was a reveal.And I speak to other authors about that.Oh, I did.And I speak to them all the time now because we're in a sort of brilliant crime writing community.
I hear that from Mark.They're amazing.Yeah, Richard Osman, there's a sort of, yeah.
I hear that it's a tight knit world.
Yeah, they've been amazing and incredibly welcoming, incredibly helpful actually.But I hear that from them that, you know, stuff, you know, I interviewed Ian Rankin this week
He says he doesn't know, he literally starts and he has no idea what the story is, even on the first draft sometimes you can not know.
So, so it is and I think that's when, as a writer, you just hit gold, because that you know that is when you know that you know your characters and actually your characters are taking on a life of their own.And there's one scene.
Yeah, yeah, it's weird.It's so weird.It's so strange.
And there's one scene that I wrote really late on the process like I was due to give it into our shared publisher in like two days and that my editor had been saying you really need another another moment between these two main characters.
And when we're off the podcast. And I just, and I knew she was right, but I couldn't see it, and I couldn't see it.And then I just went for another rewrite, and you're talking 80, 90,000 words, so there's a lot to go through.
And it was just a question of her turn, and it's Lauren, by the way, one of them, her turning left, not right, put these two people in a room together, and it kicked off. Massively.And that is like a key part of the whole book.
And it only came at the end.
So, yeah, that's so interesting.And did you have a discipline of sitting?Are you very disciplined about I'll sit for this many hours a day?This is my structure.
Oh, gosh, I wish I was.I get really distracted by, you know, I don't know, doing talks or whatever, you know, because I was doing a lot with Fearless at the time.
So what I try to do is I put days in my diary when I'm writing and that's all I'm doing on that day, apart from walk the dogs.
and they can go, you know, they can go really well, they can go badly, but on an ideal day I'll get up, I'll have a cup of tea, walk the dogs, I find that because it's the next calm for the day, go upstairs to the attic, or sometimes I've got a static caravan in Cornwall where I write really well.
I've got a lot of my book in Cornwall, yeah.Have you?
Oh, we need to see each other down there.Yeah.
Which bit of Cornwall are you?Are you in North?Okay. North Cornwall.I'm South, but it's not very big, is it?No, no, I could easily get that.No, sometimes I swim in the South.Yeah, there you go.It's good to know you're flexible.
Because I, yeah, I definitely have the same thing of sort of lily padding around, around the book.But one of the things I have found, some of the bits I most like are the bits that have come to me after I've sat and sweated at it.
And so I just can't get that bit right.And then I'll be out walking, as often is when I'm walking the dog, and I'll just dictate, there's a bit that's in the last chapter that I'm writing at the moment.
that I just wrote, I just said it on a dog walk and then I hadn't looked at it for ages, I'd written it ages ago, just dictated it, bunged it in the last chapter thinking I'll look at it and when I read it I was like oh I love that bit, that just came out, it came out when I was in the woods with the dog and it needed a bit of writing but I loved the sentiment of it so some of my better bits
When you're not writing?When I'm not writing and all of my stand-up happens when I'm not writing.It all happens on stage, which is a bit of a problem because I don't think you can write a book... Does it?
Not all, but the good bits tend to come out of being on stage.It'll be a shit thing that I've written that becomes a good thing with a few performances and mucking about with audience.
And you don't really have the chance to craft a book by going to the hay and saying, let's write this together.
No, but you do, I'd completely agree with you.There's one bit when I absolutely hit a brick wall and I just could not find a way through.And actually you're right for me walking or just changing scenery can change things.
And then I'd given up, I'd been in Cornwall for a month and I'd hit this massive brick wall and I just drove back home.And then I forgot I'd even had a writer's block.You just forget, you're suddenly all fine again.
So it's a roller coaster, but it's been, there are those bits of gold and it's just super exciting to, you know, it's kind of a weird moment now.So it's out there and everybody, it's really exciting because everybody's reading it.
And I'm so invested in those characters.I want to talk about it.I want to talk about the ending.So that's all great.But I'm now at this point where I'm like, I'm desperate to write again.
I've got an idea and I don't know whether the publishers want it, but actually I probably just have to just shut up, put those days in my diary and crack on and write it anyway.
I dare say the publishers will want it based on the reception this has had.I imagine you end up with more.Can you put in a word for me?Absolutely.I'm hoping they still want mine by the time they've read the final manuscript.
I think they will be all right.But I do.Well, it's really I mean, it's it it comes across as if you were born to write it.And I think that's that's a really lovely thing when you feel as the reader.
that you're in very safe hands and indeed forget you're in the hands of an author and just feel you're in the world.So, yeah.
And that's what I wanted to do as well was because, you know, I do think it's such a strange world, reality TV is, and we all sit there, don't we, on our sofa and we just watch it.But I love reality shows.
And the reason I went on I'm a Celebrity is because I love that show so much.And I just, I didn't want to be on it because I'm a celebrity.I just wanted to be on it so I could see how it was made. So I could just be in it.
It's like, like being in this, you know, on a roller coaster or something.
I can't think of anything I would less like to do than be in a reality show, having worked on so many.You're right!I just would not, for love nor money, would you get me on any reality, no definitely not.There's no way.
So I applaud anyone who manages to do it. No, I absolutely wouldn't, couldn't, wouldn't, I think is the word.
Yeah, yeah.But what I wanted readers to get is the sense of really, you know, it's called Isolation Island, because they're on an island which is, you know, miles away from anywhere and gets cut off.
But actually, there's that sense of isolation that you get, even if you're in a room full of people, you are isolated, you're isolated from your family, your friends, your phone, all everything, you know, you are suddenly not with it.
And that's what I want the readers to feel. that they are in this place along with these strange and some of them nice people.
Yes, some really nice people and obviously need some baddies or it wouldn't be a good thriller.
I do know that everybody, I know you had the weird experience of not being in the jungle with I'm a Celebrity but the people I know who've done I'm sure same for you,
you'll know lots of people who've done it, but everyone I know who's done it in the jungle, it's just been the most, it's funny, that's a show people might think is not a healthy show to do, but actually it seems to have really done good things for people's well-being and rehabilitation, whereas there are other shows that we might think are warmer and shinier and lovelier that are not so good for people.
Oh, I don't know what you're talking about.It's interesting, isn't it, that perception? of what you sitting on the couch might think.Did you find it a kind atmosphere in terms of the production on I'm a Celebrity?
I know, production, amazing.I love production, but it was strange because particularly that year that we were in it, it was COVID, so they couldn't be with us.
I found that, I thought that must have been a really hard one to be in, yeah.
It was hard.It was really hard.And cold.And you don't like the cold.I don't like the cold at all.
I feel it's funny, an ice diving person who's gone and done I'm a Celebrity in a very cold castle.I'm slightly- Yeah, but you got out of the ice dive, you went into a sauna.Yeah, that's true.So it was fine.Okay, well, that sounds better.
I'm mindful of not keeping you when you're going to be having an actual night out, but I do want to, I will put links to Isolation Island.Oh, yes.Thank you so much.We've almost done a normal, proper promotion of your book, so well done us.
for being two grown up women able to do that job.And I really recommend it.What would you then pick, Louise, as your Namaste motherfucking life-changing moment?
OK, so it goes back, I think it's 25 years and I was a young journalist and I was sent to interview Geoffrey Archer because he was standing for Mayor of London.Right.I was a massive fan because you know what?I love thrillers.
And he wrote some really amazing ones, hugely successful writer.So I was a little bit in awe of him. and nervous.I turned up late because genuinely out of my control, I don't know why, tubes or something, whatever, something happened.
And he just looked at me and he went, who do you think you are?Who do you think you are to turn up late to this interview?Do you think if I was mayor of London that I would wait for you? And in that moment, I thought, do you know what?
One day, I will too write a thriller because you've been such a, to me.
And here we are. It's only taken 25 years.
God, it's, what a thing to say as well.Oh my goodness.Do you know what I said back?
Because I do like, I like my one-liners.
What did you say?I always think of the good one-liners afterwards on the way home.
I said it.I'm so proud.I'm so proud.I said, shall we see if you are Mayor of London?
And with hindsight, The right one liner.Well.Oh, I love it.Well, I knew you'd enjoy that.I'm glad a rude, posh white man spurred you on to do this.Who went to jail.Yes, exactly.Learn all there is to learn about crime.I love it.
And what's your favourite joke?
Oh my, oh gosh, this is so, I'm so bad at jokes.Okay, so there's two things I can't remember in life.I love, I'm the best person to tell jokes to, by the way, because I can't remember them, okay?Just like, it's just like a black hole in my brain.
And I'm really bad at, Going back to other reality shows, for example, Strictly, I cannot do because I can't remember.If you say left, left, right, I'd go right, left, right, okay?So there's two things I can't remember.
So the only joke, oh my God, the only joke I can remember is so shit.Should I tell you it?Yes, they're our favorite kinds.I'll probably get it wrong, are you ready?Yeah.Are you ready?Are you ready?Why are there no painkillers in the jungle?
Why are there no painkillers in the jungle?I don't know.Why are there no painkillers in the jungle?Because the parrots eat them all.You see, you did it.You delivered.It's so pathetic.And I've never heard that one before.You've never heard it?
No, I haven't.And you'd be amazed, Louise, how many comedians aren't very good at telling jokes.If you ever ask us to tell a joke, we don't really tell jokes, a lot of us, it's sort of all set up.No, you tell stories.Stories, yeah.
God forbid you ask a comedian to tell a joke, so you do better than most of us.
The only thing that I'd like to do, and I'm not going to say this, by the way, I sometimes fantasize about doing stand-up because I think there is something in the, because I do lots of talks and stuff, and I love making people laugh.
I'm not saying I'm going to sit by the way or anything.Well, you obviously are, because as a corporate speaker.And then you know, well, yeah, you so you do.Yeah, exactly.
So all that, but you know, you know, when you've done the joke, the story long enough, you know, when the laughs are coming, and it's Just so, it's such fun.So I totally get your, what you do.I think it's brilliant.
And I, I mean, as I say, I'm not, you know, I'm not a comedian, but I know, I know I can, I know how to make people laugh sometimes.
I did not know how to make people laugh on a corporate stage as well as I do since I've been a stand up so if you can do it, I very much lean into my stand up skills to make people laugh in corporates.
So any and I see and as you will know, whenever we see other people doing corporates, not everyone has the capacity. to generate the laughter.So lucky people that are getting you or me speaking out their dues.
Well certainly you, certainly you.My most difficult audience was, was a year, I can't remember what year, the year they were like 13 and 14 year old children.Oh my gosh.
I did one for children at Euro Disney.It was some sort of, I don't know what it was, but anyway, there were hundreds of school kids and they did some sort of moving into vocational whatever, they weren't people working for Euro Disney, but
placement from their vocational college meant they did this thing and I was one of the motivational speakers.Oh my God, I still feel, I still see their gens, their faces looking at me.Yeah.
But I got them, I got them because I made them do the free dive.I've got a little video of the free dive and I made them hold their breath and after that they were putty in my hand.
Ah, because most of them were unconscious. Yeah, well, I don't know.Very compliant.
Anyway, massive respect.And I love your podcast.So thank you very much for asking me.
No, my pleasure.I need to ask you your life advice.Oh, my life advice?What life advice would you give to anybody listening?
My life advice would be just keep bloody trying.Yeah.If you've set your heart on something, you will get there.Just keep trying.And actually, the fun is often in the trying.
That was Louise Minchin and we've put links to Louise's books and all the other things we talked about in the show notes so do take a moment to have a look there and please also take a moment out of your busy day to rate, review
and recommend the podcast.And please also hit subscribe so you never miss another episode.And that is it for this week.Thank you so much for listening.
We will be back in your feed next Thursday, as always, when producer Mike and I will be giving you another chance to listen to my conversation with Alastair McGowan.
You said, well, you've got this great skill as an impressionist yet you're not showing it.People will tune in expecting you to be doing that.
Namaste, motherfuckers, was written and presented by me. Callie Beaton and produced by Mike Hanson for Pod People Productions with music by Jake Yap.I'm Callie Beaton.Until next time, motherfuckers.
Hi, I'm Sam Baker, and welcome to The Shift, the podcast that aims to tell the no-holds-barred truth about being a woman post-40.
Anyone that's worried about turning 40, I say, hurry up and get here.This is where the party is.This is the good place.
Created and hosted by me, journalist and author Sam Baker.I started The Shift because I was so tired of the absence of older women's voices.
Three little injections around my eyes and suddenly I was like, oh, I just got the last year back.Not trying to look 30.I just want to look 42.
Where had all the women over 40 gone?You know, nobody ever gets addicted to kale.
You get addicted to things that kill you.
So I created The Shift to make a space to talk about everything from life, love, sex, to careers, confidence, mental health, menopause.I mean, seriously, if you want to walk about in your pajamas for the rest of your life, we're invisible.
Each episode I speak to an inspiring woman about her shift, the second half of our lives.
I feel very strong and think I genuinely don't care what anybody thinks of me and that does come with age.
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