This is Cocktails Distilled, a podcast that takes your favorite spirits and liqueurs from the still to the cocktail glass.
In each episode, we talk to distillers and creators about particular expressions that their brand have released, what they are, why they were created, and in what cocktails they can be used.
Are you ready to understand what's in your glass, or perhaps should be?Welcome to Cocktails Distilled.
Like so many of us, Formula One champion Lewis Hamilton has a fondness for tequila.But also like so many of us, he understands the advantages in imbibing less. But finding a good non-alcoholic tequila is not as simple as it sounds.
So Hamilton did the next logical thing.He created his own.In an endeavor to honor the tradition and craft of real tequila, he partnered with Casa Lumbra, an innovative Mexican spirit company, and its distiller and co-owner, Ivan Saldana.
The two of them crafted Almave, which is marketed as the first non-alcoholic blue agave-based spirit distilled in Jalisco, Mexico.
The liquid has been designed to provide an alcohol-free alternative without compromising on the aesthetic taste and cultural essence of traditional tequila.
To find out more, we talked to Saldana about blue agave and retaining the taste of tequila without fermentation.Thank you for joining us, Ivan.
Now, tell us how the collaboration with Hamilton actually came about.
Well, I think a lot of luck, but there was a common friend between one of my partners, Moises, And the agency in which Louis was collaborating, basically the agency that, that worked with him formula one.
And what happened was that, uh, they already had a very clear idea.They wanted to do something in relationship of, uh, developing or, or, or finding a way to, to bring a non-alcoholic, uh, tequila, non-alcoholic. So the connection was made.
And from that, we had the opportunity to meet him in Mexico and share our visions, who we were, what he wanted to accomplish.And, and then suddenly I have a very big project in front of me, very exciting for sure.That's kind of what happened.
And then for two years we were working. until Almave came to life.
Now, although Almave is made from blue agave, do you see the liquid as a non-alcoholic tequila or would you define it as something else?
Well, anything that mimics in today's market the way it's been explained, that tries to bring the flavors of a spirit but without alcohol, the category is called non-alcoholic. So that definition was already pre-established.
But for sure, the fact that this hasn't been fermented implies inevitably that the liquid that is obtained is not a tequila.This is a 100%, I mean, for sure, a product coming from Blue Agave.It is made in an infrastructure identical to Agave.
We utilize mature blue agaves from the highlands that are cooked, and that's our raw material.And the flavors of that raw material are captured.
So in almost any extent, except with the fact that these never produce alcohol, as fermentation didn't happen. The process is the same and the product has as a purpose to trap all the richness these plants provide.
So it's hard for me to say, yeah, the goal is to bring the flavors of agave.So instead of using tequila, you can make your cocktails or you can sip it neat, having the opportunity to enjoy the flavors of agave.
But it is not a tequila because it has not alcohol. never experienced fermentation.
Tell us a little bit about how Almave was created.
I have a team of people.Henrik was leading the project within the product development team.Fernanda was also part of the team.We were meeting and discussing which would be the pathways we could follow.
Since the beginning, I was very clear that the goal was to obtain the volatile flavors just as tequila does, but there's ethanol in the middle that was created.
I had to trap the different flavors and smells of the agave through a process similar to tequila.So the obvious thing to me was to start to investigate how hydrolytes could be made out of the agave plant. The issue was to achieve the right result.
We had to iterate many times. to play with a number of repetitions, because we have the steel with the raw material.And in order to extract the flavors, we had to repeat it several times.That was one of the challenges.
And then had to intensify that, like how the agave should enter.Should we just take a piece of cooked agave, or should we have a proportion of fiber
And use that was like a different all of these variables we started to investigate in order to obtain what is the heart of the product 70 70 percent 60 percent of a bottle of water was actually transforming to steam.
and distill back into water with everything inside.So optimizing the process took us a lot of time.The other big challenge was microbiological and the implications of how to keep our products stable without adding things.
So how could we be very careful in the entire process that the liquid ends sufficiently clean that we could, and which technologies we could use to ensure that the product could be bottled and could have a good shelf life.
That was also a quite challenging bit of the project.I think around that, and again, the product, a part of the Hydrolite, we play with other things to give structure.For example, we use gums to give texture.We have to explore
how much from where, what origin.We also had a, an ingredient, uh, that is based on, on chilies or capsicin that allow us to provide a more intense sensation of pungency, similar to the tequila.
And we, we start to investigate how to do this in a natural way.We use just natural ingredients.We, we don't use artificial ingredients of any kind. And this also the balance between acidity and sweetness, very, very important.
The sweetness that you will find in a malmaves comes from the agave itself.
So let's say the core, the heart of the product, the stabilizing it, and then, and then giving the structure to ensure we provide the best experience it was possible to provide.
Was it a harder process than you thought it was going to be?
Yes.Well, no, not sure.Honestly, I was facing absolute, I mean more harder than any other product I have made in the alcohol business.Yes.
Because I don't know, alcohol, there's a lot already known there, but, but I'm, I mean, I always thought it would be difficult, but at moments I thought it would be three times more difficult that at the last
what actually the difficulty we face, another I thought would be easier.It's hard to answer.It was just the right amount of difficulty, I would say.Because without experience, the expectation wasn't clear about difficulty, really.
How many iterations did you end up having to create before you settled on the final one?
Hundreds.Hundreds.I mean, I remember For, I mean, considering there are two products, but yeah, we are around 130, 140 different iteration between the two.
Uh, and it's very important to say that iteration of final product, because there was iteration of the HydroLite itself from that one.I cannot tell you, uh, I don't keep the track, but when we were in sampling, let's say in sampling.
the potential final products.Yeah.It will be 75 each more or less each.Uh, let's say I'm bar I'm Blanco.
So multiple, but there were some ingredients as explained, like, okay, we're going to put some sweetness, which kind of sweetness we want to use, because could be like in Alameda Blanco, we ensure that there's no color in numbers, there's color.
So we were choosing different degrees of caramelization.So it was a lot of work, not only in the final, but in the elements we were using before we ensembled the final almave.
Let me ask, by skipping the fermentation process, does the almave have more terroir of Jalisco than a normal tequila would have?
No, I would not say that.I mean, just like the plant, the behavior of a yeast, and particularly when yeast, which is the thing I work the most with naturally occurring yeast, at least in Agave spirits, that makes a big difference.
It's also part of the terroir, so I wouldn't conceptually split the idea that Almave may have more terroir than a fermented product.
I know why you're mentioning, because fermenting implies, let's say, modifying more the character of an agave that was growing out there.So I wouldn't say that.That would be unfair.
Also because, as explained, Almave is mostly the hydrolate, but I am already playing with the experience, with texture, with balance, acidity, sweetness.And those things are not coming from randomly, from the expression of the Earth.
They are coming from the direction of the producer.So I wouldn't, it would be hard to have a conceptual argument to say that something fermented
because it's modified through yeast will have less terroir than almave, because almave is also the result of decisions of the producer.So it depends a lot on what you define as terroir.But I don't think so.I think it's equivalent.
Having said that it's not technically a tequila, how would you describe the flavor?
I think I'm trapping the ample range of flavors and smells that the agave can provide.Those are embedded in any tequila.So that is absolutely shared.But there's a part between almabe up to now.
I'm already working because I think that differently from other propositions, here's a space still to keep looking into ways, which is the fermentative side.But let me finish what I was saying.
Almave can capture the spectrum of elements and soil elements that agave provides.But there are other elements that are created during fermentation.
Yeast is capable of producing substances with their own flavors, like, for example, higher alcohols, esters, and those are generated through the digestion of sugars by the yeast.And that element
It's not yet, I would say, because I'm exploring that, in Almave.And that's one of the reasons why I don't like to say this is a non-alcoholic tequila, in the sense of being a tequila without the alcohol.
This is an agave spirit, a blue agave distillate that has no alcohol, as described in our labels, that brings the entire set of flavors of agave.
Technically, the only way to make a non-alcoholic tequila as a non-alcoholic tequila is taking tequila and separating the alcohol.
Something that is really hard to make because alcohol will inevitably also pull out, if you try to take the alcohol out, will pull out a lot of the flavors of the agave that are inside the liquid.So what is left? will be not that good.
And I can tell you, we go.
So my approach was, how can I, how can I do the same service tequila does for us in the sense of bringing the flavors of agave, but using water instead as a carrier of trapping those flavors, but water just like that is not that easy.
We have to several times. re-destillate and re-destillate over the same raw material in order to concentrate or isolate.And that's the base of what a drink is.
So if I synthesize, there will be certain characteristics in tequila that are not present in almave.
Have you designed the liquid to be just drunk on its own or with ice or specifically to be put into cocktails?
Well, we wanted to achieve both.I think in particularly with Almave Ambar, the purpose was to offer a neat experience too.It's a favorite way of drinking for Louis, for example, just a nice liquid.You can put probably a slice of orange if you want.
And I think Almave, We try to intensify it.Also, it has the nodes of the tannins, and we do extracts.We use extracts of wood, oak, and it has a deeper, let's say, mouth feel to it.
So I would say Almave, Ambar, since the beginning, we truly wanted to offer a neat experience as well.But the core for sure, and we did a lot of testing on that, is we want this to behave really great in cocktails.So both Blanco and Ambar.
And I believe the result is really great. like when you do a margarita or you do a paloma, it works very well with both, with both products.But with Blanco, it's also fresher.I mean, it's different.
Ambar, you have more the caramelic and the wood notes there, while Blanco will enhance the green, fresher, the essential oils that naturally occurs in agave in a more crisper, fresher way.
Now, there's a variety of non-alcoholic products on the market right now and that there's a deluge of them.Why should consumers grab a bottle of Amave compared to anything else?
First, because I truly believe that it brings the flavors of agave in a very accurate way, because it tastes great.I mean, it's a very good product.Besides mimicking or not mimicking anything, Amave by itself is something.It is.
It is not about what is not.It's really something that I think is very pleasurable.I believe as well that agaves are one of the most extraordinary raw materials in multiple areas, but particularly in the world of flavor and smell, they are fantastic.
And I find hard like to say that if someone is looking for an experience that fulfills that moment for sharing, that is adult, complex, they shouldn't be considering Almave.
I mean, if they are really wanting to look at that, to making cocktails, to mix, to discover how the flavors of Agave can transform a drink, well, I think Almave is a choice to go.
Which one should they start with?
I think there's not a particular order.I think if you want to do the standard Margarita, because that's what normally they drink, maybe Blanco, but, but because they want that, if they want a seeping, I will say yes to start with.
You can see Blanco too, but, but Amber has this more dense, concentrated, woody kind of, uh, of expression that I think is also. very, very good starting point to get to know the brand, uh, with Ambar sipping.
So they should look at Blanco as a Blanco and Ambar as a Reposado for example.
That's for sure.That's for sure.Because the Ambar is introducing as well, the woody elements.So yeah, one is Blanco and clearly Ambar is a Repo.Yeah.
And what is the reaction both from the bar community and consumers being to the product so far?
I think, I mean, for those that are appreciating options with no alcohol and for those that have a clean mind of having contact with a great product, with a great taste, it's been amazing.I still believe that not everybody in the world is yet
In a level of openness.And if you want to take a model and what you want is to feel how the ethanol evaporates.The back of your tongue.Well, that will not happen because there's no alcohol.
So let's say depends a lot on the public depends a lot of the market, but generally speaking, we are really happy and amazed.One of the wonderful things. Selling products without alcohol allows is direct selling.
We do it through our webpage and that allows us to get contact directly.With the consumers who are ordering it and enjoying it and learning their feedback.And that's very, very, very positive.
So, so far, I think that people get, uh, most of the time positively excited, positively impacted by.
Of course, in the news, being the fact that Pernod Ricard has acquired a minority stake, what is this going to mean for the brand?
I mean, all the work has to be made exactly as it was planned, but now having the opportunity to work with a company like Pernod, we hope that their resources pointing to promote or to make accessible, they have
presence in more than 70 countries in the world.They allow us the opportunity to make Almave available in a much broader range.In that sense, I think Pernod is going to be an amazing partner, but that doesn't change anything else.
We have to go and educate and present it.We have to keep producing it as we are doing it now, the same fashion.So, What I think it allows is a much more stronger platform to allow Almave to reach the world.
Now, the spirit is still in its first year, but have any bartenders created drinks with it that you didn't perhaps expect?
It's very early, I would say.I mean, I have tried.
Some cocktails that are amazing that you sort of, that are surprising because I'm not typically the way you use tequila because the traditional tequila cocktails, Paloma, Margarita, those ones, I mean, I have tried them.
They are great, but yeah, there's bartenders that have been very creative mixing with cinnamon and apple juice and others like celery.
extractions of beaters and things like that, that, that has been quite surprising, but I would say it's early on on the brand.And, and most of what I have seen is, is an application trying to bring more traditional tequila cocktails.
But I think there's an entire world, a space for Almave to be explored beyond the concepts of cocktails that exist already for the tequila.
Now, talk to us a little bit about the bottle designs.
Yes, well, bottle designs are the responsibility of my dear partner, Danny Schneeweis, one of the co-founders as well of Casa Lumbre, and in my opinion, was one of the best in the world in designing bottles.
I mean, we have several, uh, price winning designs in the company.
And, and I think I'll Mavi is not an exception.I think the bottle has a really strong presence.We were able to truly present it as a premium product.It doesn't look.
as anything else it in a way resembles tequila but but but it also it also have its own very unique shape and identity. So the process wasn't, I mean, I saw it from the side.
I was working really hard in the liquids meeting Hamilton in multiple places in the world in order to get his feedback, but in an equivalent way, Danny was working with the packaging doing kind of the same, but developing Lewis is a, is a guy who is.
very design driven.He puts a lot of care in how things look, in how things get expressed, not only for his own self, he has his own style and everything, but he's a design lover.
And in that sense, Luis also had a really strong participation in the process.
So Danny from the visuals to the three dimensional experience of holding the bottle, the height of it, the weight of it, the color palette, all of that was a process in which Danny was designing, creating, but then there were rounds of feedback up to we felt we have achieved the best we could with that bottle.
Now, I believe that the colors are fairly significant, that the blue of the blanco is meant to represent Jalisco's dawn and the amber is dusk.
That's right.It's some poetic element there.If you look at tequilas, they traditionally are now a color pattern, which, by the way, Danny invented.The first
White tequila in a blue bottle was his in Milagro, uh, 15 years ago, Milagro tequila is a design he created, and then the industry adopted it.And the blue became a very preeminent color for Blanco tequila.
And that was Danish Navy is my partner's, uh, color code coding he created, but what is unique in my ways that the tone of the, of the blue. both and the tone of the amber is very electric.It's very intense.It's really shiny in that sense.
Maybe as a sky in the dusk and a sky in the dawn.I agree.I like the poetic resemblance of that.
So if you've got a dawn and you've got a dusk, what's next for the company?Did you bookend it day?
Right.Well, there's things coming, but I'm not entitled to say.There may be something else coming.
And they will be permanent expressions or will they be?
Well, it's a space at least for one more, but we'll see.I mean, yeah.
Or two more if you go into the Crisolano direction, but... Yeah.Now, what I should have asked already was, what does Almave actually mean?
Almave is a conjunction of two words, Alma, which means soul, and Agave.Almave is the soul of the Agave.And we decided to join two words in order to represent it.Soul of Agave.
And I think it's a very accurate definition of what we try to do. It's about the agave.Almave is really the liquid spirit of agave with no alcohol involved.We trap that.
Now you mentioned earlier that Pernod was going to help in terms of getting into new markets.Where is the liquid available right now?
Right now we have it in, uh, the U S limited in Mexico.
We are working to expand that the UK, uh, and a few other countries in Europe, which is hard for me to say specifically right now, which ones I know the product is already in our warehouses in, uh, in Holland and starting to roll, uh, to roll out.
But I think soon we'll be in Spain, France. uh germany but i i cannot confirm is is there i'm going to europe actually traveling around in october For that time, I'm expecting to be launching the product and seeing it in few countries already.
But for the time being, I wouldn't like to say for consumers that the product is available because I'm not sure it is.It will take still some time more.And we were focusing in launching and seeing the reaction of the consumer.
And it's been a lot of demand.I mean, the thing is moving. Always when you launch a brand, there's a challenge in increasing volumes.
You go, you have your process, you produce X amounts of liters, but now you have to do it more often and you have to establish a more robust operation and you have to be careful to do it well, to ensure you are absolutely in line with your expectation of what is the quality you are offering.
So right now we are in that process of learning and delivering. growing up in the distillery, but always ensuring we will obtain the quality we expect to provide.
All right.Well, look, thank you for taking the time.
If people want more information, they can, of course, go to the website, which is elmarve.com, or connect with the brand via your socials.
That's right. That's the best way to obtain information.
Okay, cool.All right, Ivan, thank you so much.
You're welcome, thank you.
And we'd also like to thank you for listening.Be sure to visit cocktails2steel.com to access the show notes.And if you like what you've heard, we'd love you to subscribe, rate, or give a review on iTunes.Until next time, cheers.
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