Welcome to Life and Art from FT Weekend.I'm Laila Raptopoulos.There's this thing that I keep hearing about the restaurant world, which is that fine dining might be over.And if not over, that it's starting to feel old, like an outdated ritual.
The argument is that the tasting menu, with all these courses of tiny things on giant plates, has gotten too predictable.You'll get the caviar course, you'll get the wagyu beef course, but there won't be any real character.
I've absolutely felt that myself, but recently I went to a restaurant here in New York that didn't feel outdated at all.
It felt like it was using the tasting menu to actually have fun, play with our expectations, play with flavor, and really do something different.The restaurant is called Blanca, and its executive chef is Victoria Blamey.
Blanca's reviews have been excellent.It's been called one of the best restaurants in America, but also a little divisive.One major critic called it not for beginners.Another called it a marathon only for food nerds.
The restaurant is also a mix of high and low, since it's located at the back of a pizza joint.And all of that makes it a really interesting case for what fine dining can look like in 2024.
Victoria doesn't seem to mind being known for challenging diners, and she's with me in the studio today to talk about her work.Victoria, hi.Welcome to the show.Hi, how are you?I'm super excited to be here.We're so happy to have you.
I'd love to start by sort of setting the scene of your restaurant, where it is, what it's doing differently for listeners.We have listeners around the world.Blanca is fundamentally unique because it's a restaurant within another restaurant.
called Roberta's.Roberta's to many is shorthand for kind of the New York hipster movement of around 2007.It opened there in Bushwick by chef Carlo Mirarchi.And then some years later, Carlo opened Blanca as his fine dining offshoot.
It closed during COVID.And then just this past January.Yeah, it reopened with you as executive chef.
Yeah, of course.I mean, this is Carlos, you know, restaurant and Carlos baby.
Yeah.When he asked you to take that role, why did you say yes?
I mean, it wasn't so quickly.Also, he wasn't so quickly.The whole thing was just pretty slow.I was very puzzled that he asked me, to be honest with you.I was puzzled to be like, what am I going to do in Bushwick?
You know I'm not I'm not really that cool kid cook of like tattoos even though I do have one but I only got it when I was 36 so you know and yeah I mean I have had a much more classic training career you know I didn't just go on my own I mean I was very
determined and planned ahead of like, where do I need to go?Where do I want to get?And I guess it was just because of many different reasons, you know, one of them being, you know, from South America and then a female chef.
I think those two things kind of like made me realize like, OK, so where do I have to go to get in this? game, but like for real, you know.
Yeah.Interesting.Yeah.Just a bit more context for listeners for what you're saying.You came up, as you say, in a very classic way, right?You're from Santiago, Chile.You stodged at Michelin restaurants around the world.You worked at Mugaritz in Spain.
You've really kind of risen through the establishment. And you finally opened your own place a few years ago in Tribeca, which got amazing reviews.Mena was the restaurant.It was a beautiful restaurant.It closed so quickly, unfortunately.
Yeah, that was really painful.That was actually, you know, I've realized now there's no moment in general that you don't learn something.I think it just takes some time, you know, to get over the pain.
Yeah, I can imagine. So when MENA closes and then, you know, sometime later this kind of DIY hipster guy comes to you to say, come do this weird thing instead, like let's do this differently, what appealed to you about that?
I would have never thought about it, one of it.I would have never thought I would get a call from Carlos, second me going there and third not only being in Brooklyn but Bushwick.Yeah.
So and then you know I think Carlos said it much later and we have interesting conversations you know he said to me I think you've been working towards this your whole career?And I was about to be immediately to say like, no.
And I was like, you know, probably.I have come from fine dining my whole career.When I moved to New York, had to kind of start all over again, which was really, really difficult.
And then things just took a really funny turn, you know, like I found myself into a casual dining restaurant, like alimentari.
Well, and then I was supposed to do a fine dining place when I was actually in Nagasawa waiting to open some sort of French and Japanese tasting menu.And then it just never happened.
And so I guess, you know, that I was meant to be doing this sort of omakase tasting counter for a long time, you know. And I think it makes sense.
I think my food is sometimes hard to get, you know, I think it's not very straightforward as in like, I don't understand.And, you know, some people say, what's the narrative?
When someone trying to get really fucking interesting, they're like, what's the narrative?And I'm like, what's the narrative?Yeah, I was like, I'm the fucking narrative, you know, like it's And I'm like, OK, I'm right here.
What else do you need for a narrative?Like, do you want a book to help to eat?And, you know, some people are excited.Obviously, you get others that they're like, oh, my God.But you have Chilean stuff.
You have things from Japan and some things from this.And I'm like, yeah, that's an immigrant life.You know, you're filled with little bits and pieces of places you worked and lived and things that made an impact in your life.
Yeah.Yeah. So you've done all this high-end fine dining and this is probably the opposite of a restaurant that's prim and proper.Roberta's is kind of a compound and you enter through a door that like... I mean you have shipping containers.
Yes, it's like built of shipping containers.You walk and it looks like a dive bar that's kind of nothing when you walk in and suddenly you're in this big space.
The patio is huge.The garden or whatever.Yeah, it's a huge.
Totally.They kind of walk you through and you walk by like pizza ovens and graffiti and surfboards.And you see there's a radio station in their heritage radio.And then you walk into this like other little world.
It's kind of this serene room when you walk into Blanca in the back, and it has this marble countertop with 12 seats.
13.It was 12, and then we made it 13, which is good.It's good lucky 13 seats.
And it looks out into this enormous kitchen.And so you sit down and you feel like, okay, we're in this like spaceship together.Where are you going?Where are we going?
And you kind of look around and the room is like 90% kitchen and we're really watching you.Yeah.And I know that I realized that all of this was there before you.
But like in your mind, when you were first going in there and when you were deciding to work there, like what was interesting about that setup?Like what do you get to do there?
I mean, I did go to Blanca like twice or three times before. So I was familiar of like what they were doing.I mean, of course, it's the biggest kitchen I've ever worked as an executive chef.
You know, people used to laugh at me, my friends and colleagues.And like, I worked out of shoeboxes.So obviously, you know, I walk into Blanca and Blanca is like 10,000 times the space that I've ever had.
And when finally we clear everything and everyone was out of there and there was no more production, no one from Roberta's there.I was scared to death because it's so open. I mean there's really nowhere to hide.
There's not like a little plant or like a little pillar or like a little area.Nothing.So I was like holy shit you know.At the beginning I was like they're looking at me and then I was like okay I have to stop thinking they're looking at me.
But then like they are looking at me.
Yeah, it's been 10 months now.What is it like to cook in this house?This is your house now.Yeah, for sure.You're very close to your customers.Yeah.We're looking at you, but you're looking at us.
Yeah, I mean, I just forgot that I think it's as overwhelming for the customer, I mean for the guests, that it can be overwhelming for me. that I realized that also you do feel seen, too.
You know, like you guys have nowhere to go because we're looking at each other.You know, this is like a Bramovic, you know, one on one.You totally think it's like we're talking.There's noise and sometimes a little too loud.
But, you know, so it's great.I mean, I do believe the energy is something you have to be very careful with, even though
you're the one commanding the pace, commanding while they're eating, commanding the front of house, and you're this orchestra, right?I face you, you know?So someone at orchestra, they're just facing the people they're singing, you know what I mean?
So like playing the instrument.If I were to give my back, probably would be a little bit different perhaps, but this is like eyes on eyes, you know?So if the people are not really on that really nice high energy level, It can get very intense.
Yeah.It's interesting.Yeah, it is.It's really a small ecosystem.So the vibe of the people and then the vibe of the team.
13 people, 4 cooks and 4 front of house, you know.But some people don't go for that food experience.Yeah.Some people do go because there's a ticket that means something.Right.You know, they were here.They can check it off their list.Yeah.
I can afford to come.And that's changed dining a lot. But also we have amazing people, you know, like we have this amazing 80 year old couple that came on Saturday and they've been there already five times with me.They're big, big fans of Carlo.
He has a walker.Yeah.I mean, the effort. Yeah, that I don't even see a 28 year old, you know, or a 34 year old.So, yeah, so you obviously when someone's interested, when someone wants to know more, it's not about people liking everything.
It's about people trying to understand what you're doing, you know.And it might sound obnoxious, but I mean, that's a tasting menu is literally going to get to go and get to know the chef that's cooking.Right.That's what it is.
Let's talk about your food.Yes.So as you said, you serve a tasting menu.You have two seatings a night.There were, I think, 16 courses when I was there.I thought of your food at Mena as sort of like briny and seaweedy and cool and fun.
There was a lot of seaweed.
Yeah, it was cool.Can you walk me through like a typical menu here?Like what's important to you when you're building one or you're building a dish?
You know, it's hard.I think it's hard to build a menu out of nowhere.
Because you like the structure, you know, once there's a structure in place and you want to almost like break the structure again.I think my food for sure, it goes on the acid, briny. seafood, seaweed, bunch of flavor.
I'm not very good at being subtle.So I think here is just a little bit more intentional.Definitely seasonal.
And definitely with the idea that we want to just kind of slap someone's face, you know, we're like, hey, wake up.Yeah.Whether you like it or not, this is what's going on right now.
One fun thing about the experience dining at your restaurant is that like I feel like often in fine dining situations that you get like a full description of everything that's happened to the thing you're about to eat.
They're like, you know, this eggplant was dehydrated and rehydrated and then done it again and then rehydrated again and put in this thing and then cracked out of its nest.
And in this, in your restaurant, you really don't know that much about the dish.
I mean, that's a Carla thing.
That's a Carla thing.Oh, definitely.
Yeah. I embrace it.Not all the time.I mean, I'm sure he knows.Not all the time because there's times that I think the diner needs a little bit of an explanation and it's how they get really lost.
So at times I explain something that I think it means something and they need to understand, especially, you know, with the bread, if it's something, the seaweed that is from Chile, you know, and other times it's just three words, you know, and that's that.
And I love it if it's more like a drop mic, you know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. One of my favorite dishes felt like a drop, Mike, which is this little dense roll of spinach.
Yeah, it's off the menu now.Well, may it rest in peace.It was just like I might come back and it's OK next year.Yeah, it's this dense roll of spinach.It comes in a little a beautiful plate that looks kind of like a tire.
And yeah, we call it actually the doughnut bowl doughnut bowl.
And it's sitting in this sauce.All I know is that it's tomatillo sauce, but I don't even know how to describe it.
No, it's a tomatillo gelé, and it has a grated serrano.So it's basically we do a little balancing of literally just spinach.Then we serve it really, really cold.
We grate serrano on the side, put it on top of the tiny, tiny roll of spinach, and then we make a tomatillo gelé.And then the dressing is made out of ponzu, sesame, French olive oil.
You know, I think it was funny when I thought about it, I was like, is this too dumb?Because I mean, this is pretty dumb.I mean, like, ponzu, sesame, tomatillo, serrano.And I was like, oh, God, fuck it.
And then I was like, who's doing actually cold spinach that much?So I don't know.I mean, I think the umami, obviously, the acidity of the tomatillo, the little kick of the serrano.
You know, I think it's a combination of things, but it was born really quickly, which I love.You know, there's a lot of things that are born just like that and other ones that I like. literally nine months of being pregnant.And yeah, it's hard.Yeah.
You have other dishes like this big red tomato.
Oh, the canestrino.Yeah.Last day was Saturday.Yeah.Oh, really?That's so sad.I know.
We're like, oh, God, you know, it looks it looks like a pregnant tomato.It's just this big, really red.
Yeah.I know.And then explodes in the plate.Yeah.Yeah.Yeah.It's also a good one.Simple, but but good.You know, simple is the most hard thing to do.
Yes, yeah, yeah, I can imagine.
It really is, you know, because you have to base it on ingredients.A, you have to base it on really good cooking and simple is not a lot of intervention.
Yeah, yeah, makes sense.I, as we reach, I just sort of, I want to talk about this bread. Because, like, as we reach the end of the meal, for one of the courses, you tear off a hunk of a loaf of bread and put it in front of us.
And it's called tortilla al rescoldo.And it's inspired by this Chilean bread.It has hunks of meat in it.I think in Chile you use chicharron.The version I had had lamb in it.
You've told me that you worked with a baker friend to recreate it, but I imagine it's pretty similar, right, to the Chilean bread.
It's a hundred percent a cultural DNA Chilean side of me, which is another layer of who I am that doesn't always show up.
Yeah.I think one of the beautiful things to me about it is like you get this sort of big hunk of bread with this beautiful butter and that's the dish.And it's very comforting.And you do that a few times.There's like very delicate dishes.
And then you give us like a big crab empanada. And it's like flaky and the best crab empanada, but it's like a big sort of thing and these delicate dishes, these big sort of comfort things.
Well, I mean, if you think about it, I mean, South America or like cultures that actually did not really get taken over by, let's say, French cuisine, you know, that's what it is.Yeah.You know, I mean, it was much more
you know, not subtle, much more on your face, you know, peasant, which, you know, Chile, I mean, you know, it was a hard country to take over.
Indigenous were super difficult and really tough and really violent.And so I guess, you know, our food is much more, I mean, for lack of a better word, rustic. I love the history side of it.
You know, I love the marriage of the immigration migration that you have right there.Not fully developed at all.You know, that's what it is.An empanada who doesn't have it.
Tell me one culture that doesn't have a hot pocket, you know, and they're all usually on the bigger side, comforting.Yeah.You know, that that level is like we are breaking how fine dining was years ago.
You know, I did fine dining in England and everything was tiny and very like white, you know, and very not upsetting, you know, not discomforting.
And I think the good thing these days is that now we don't look only at like France or Spain or, you know, Italy.We just looked everywhere.
Yeah.I mean, the world's too big.Yeah.It always was, you know, but we just never made it. to be talked about.Yeah.Yeah.
You know, I wanted to ask you sort of about like, like, it seems like you don't want everything to be balanced all the time.But I also feel like even in the imbalance, that's like its own balance.
It's just, you know, can you talk a little bit about like how you're trying to push your diners or what you want us to feel or
I think it's more myself.I'm a tough diner.I also get like not bored easily, but I'm like, oh, I've seen this.I like done that.Why people still doing this?Why do we have Wagyu on every tasting menu these days?
Like, why do I want to eat Wagyu?I mean, before it was special and fun.You know, why do I want to eat caviar everywhere?Why do I want to have lobster?Which crab is way better anyway?
I mean, like, I think in general, I want to for diners to appreciate the difference, you know, in, in our, in our dining culture.I think I want diners to understand that, you know, a lot of them, you haven't seen any vegetable yet.
If you haven't seen, I don't know, if you added to cauliflower, if you haven't seen a cheese pepper, if you, you know, I mean, these days we have like five items in our you know, in our fridge and you're lucky.
And the food culture has been going down for years, you know.So do I try to lecture them?Very, very mildly.Do I try to show new things?Especially produce.I do like showing that we're working with things that people used to work before. Like what?
Well, you know, tongue, you know, we're working on pork liver right now.Snails, you know, people think snails are meant to be just done with garlic.You know, we did it with lavender back in the day with a pasta we had.
Just trying to understand that, you know, food was even more interesting before.Yeah. And I have memories of getting excited about food because the first time I ate, you know, like osso bucco in Chile, which was in the Italian version.
But, you know, that marrow.Oh, my God.I would come from school and I would open this pot that, you know, my my nanny used to cook because my mom was working all the time.And I will come in and steal every single freaking marrow.
And then my mom yelling at me like around eight to nine p.m.if she was actually home that early. And that's how I fell in love with food, you know?So I just, everyone's so safe these days, you know?Everything, everyone's so scared.
Everyone is so, oh I never tried this, you know?It's like, what do you mean?It's like, you live in New York.It's like, it's a place to try pretty much everything.And also to have fun, you know?I love having fun and I think it's true, you know?
I don't want things to make sense all the time, but they do make sense when they don't make sense.
Yeah, you know, it makes sense that, you know, you're coming out of this hunk of bread or you're coming to this gorgeous Japanese summer fish and then you move it into a gigantic piece of bread that is dense and meaty and fatty.Why not?
You know, I mean, how else are you supposed to explore food?
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You know, for all of this sort of experimentation and like fun that you get to have this format, the tasting menu is a very traditional format and can be thought of as a very traditional format.
But it seems like there are some upsides for you about using a tasting menu.What is it?Is it just that like, you know, you get to like control, people will eat whatever you put in front of them.You get to control the balance.
No, I mean, there's people that don't eat all of it.I've had people that are like, yeah, not my thing. In general, no, but I think Carlos said it very well on this interview, this interview we did together.
And he said, you know, it is so far the best outlet how to show a chef's cuisine.And that is because if you go to Menau, if you went to Menau, you would have a prefix menu.
And I did try, you see, to kind of steer your food choices, you know, very gently.But then you would only know what you want to eat.
You'd only have one story.You would only know one side of that person.You would only know one side of what people are doing.I mean, I think to be adventurous, you have to like surrender yourself.
If you don't surrender, it's like, you know, when I go to a place like that, I am in the hands of the chef.It's not my choice.
I think the only time I've ever asked for something, and I think I've told this story many times, and I think maybe I told you,
when I went to a really great tasting menu in Austria and the some didn't want to change the wine for me and I was like you know buddy like this is not your game actually you know this is the chef's game and I am also a guest and I hate that wine and that was the only time I've asked for something like that I'm lucky that I don't have allergies but I'm at their disposal you know I want someone to take me and like shake me and break me apart and put me back together I don't want someone to please me
You know, I want to be pleasantly surprised, you know?And I think the problem with tasting menus in New York is like everyone's afraid of losing customers and losing guests and losing money because it's a business.
And we all live on the same fear.Yeah.It's the same fear.
But if we're going to live in fear, might as well get some fucking fun about it, you know?I mean, like, can you imagine, like, if we were doing like lobster?I don't, I couldn't see it, you know?
Yeah. What do you want to see more of in fine dining or in restaurants?
This.I want just people to just, I want someone to just explore more, you know.I want people to be more adventurous, you know.I think we're getting it all wrong, you know.
We're pushing away diners just by doing the same thing all over again, which also it happens in Europe, you know.I have a good friend of mine.He's like, if I eat more, one more fucking squab, he said to me. I was like, why?
And it's true, a lot of tasting menu restaurants in England and other, you know, Austria, whatever, they finish with a squab and you're like, one more pigeon and I'm gonna walk out.
And I was like, I get it, you know, here is, you don't say it a lot, but obviously it was the number one, like meat, you know, at one point and you're like, gosh, boring.So yeah, just, I guess, be more uncomfortable, take more challenges, you know.
What do you feel sort of, I guess, most worried about sort of as one of my maybe my last question, what are you most worried about and most.Hopeful about with the in the restaurant ecosystem, worried money, money.
money, again, generations, guest tastes, you know, guest experiences and how they view food.I find that a little scary.
Do you think that they're informed too much by social media or by trying?
You know, that's a great question.I don't even think it's that.I just think that there's some misconception because of other restaurants just they all doing the same thing.Someone told them they needed to put Wagyu.
Someone told them they needed to put lobster. I am very glad that Carlos is not like that, you know?
And what makes you most hopeful?
I, at the same time, seen a couple who was 80 years old, both of them coming with a walker and saying, I love your food.I mean, that just like melt me, you know, I was like, gosh, I am so bad sometimes about taking compliments.
I get very critical about a hypocritical and I get embarrassed, you know, so, but for someone like that, I do believe it.
So yeah, I guess the hope of having a customer like that at the restaurant.Yeah.
Yeah. Victoria, thank you for your time.Thank you for your food.This was such a delight.
No, thank you for inviting me.It's always fun to talk about this.You know, we don't do it enough.
That's the show.Thank you for listening to Life and Art from FT Weekend.Take a look through the show notes.I have linked to where you can find Victoria.
As always, there's a link for a discount to a subscription to the Financial Times and places that you can find me on email and on Instagram where I'm at lilarap and love chatting with all of you about culture.
I'm Laila at Raptopolis, and here's our incredible team.Katya Kumkova is our senior producer, Lulu Smith is our producer.Our sound engineers are Breen Turner, Sam Javinko, and Joe Salcedo with Original Music by Metaphor Music.
Topher Voorhees is our executive producer, and our global head of audio is Cheryl Brumling.Have a wonderful week, and we'll find each other again on Friday.
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