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What is up?So this is an interesting episode, especially for those of you who have not experienced my love for highly produced storytelling, which is something I do on my deep dives on Patreon.
So I'm going to share with you one of my favorite episodes.And there are many in a series that I did regarding Dave and Rachel Hollis.Now listen, if you're like, I don't even know who they are, or Shaleen, I didn't think you did that kind of content.
This is different.Trust me, this is very, very different.I had a completely different take on it.I was very much living a life kind of similar to theirs.Brett and I were operating and running in similar circles.
We're partners in our business, partners in our marriage with young kids, putting our lives out in social media.And so when I started this series about Dave and Rachel,
I really just wanted to shed a light on the reality of what it's like for someone, or what it could be like for someone, who becomes incredibly famous, rises through the ranks, everyone is talking about you, you are the star, you are the darling, you're getting all these viral videos, and everyone is talking about you, everyone's following you, and then, oftentimes, things shift, right?
So that person who's got seven million followers and everybody loves them, that only lasts for a certain amount of time. And then the tides shift and then people decide they want to tear you down or tear these people down.
And we forget that these are real humans.And because someone has a million followers, for whatever reason, people believe like, I wouldn't say this to my next door neighbor, but I am going to comment this on this influencers page.
I'm going to make a YouTube video about them. and we forget about the devastating effects that it can have.
So this episode of The Chalene Show is one that I'm really, I'm sharing this with you because I, if I'm gonna be all the way honest, I was so proud of what developed from this piece. I didn't expect that it would go the way that it ended up going.
This is a series that ended up being 14 episodes.I thought it was gonna be like two episodes.It's highly produced.I got to use my love of combining music to make people feel an emotion.I got to share someone's story.
And in the end, it ended up, in my personal opinion, being just a beautiful tribute to a person's life, a person who died too soon. And I learned so much about myself and about humanity and empathy.And it just it changed me.
Doing this series made me a better person. I think, yeah, this is episode seven, so I'm kind of sharing a piece of the story that we're right in the middle of it.
Again, this ends up being 14 episodes long, so if you want to hear the continuation of it, you can find it on Patreon.In the meantime, thank you so much for enjoying this special edition of The Chalene Show. Okay, this is 100% fully produced by me.
I haven't even said it to my editor.He normally will normalize the audio recordings for me and that has been done.So there might be some errors.
There might be some things that are going to bug me because they're not perfect and I'll just replace the file later.I felt like it was more important to get it to you sooner than later because I know some of you were like waiting with bated breath.
All right. Okay, first of all, thank you so much, you guys, for your patience and understanding in getting this episode to you.I'm out of control, and I'm fully aware of it, and I mean, the irony has not been missed.This has been such a mirror.
It's been such an experience, an opportunity for self-reflection. And it's tested me.I'm dipping back into my own addiction completely.My addiction to do more.
I mean, if you go back and listen to the first episode versus what you're about to listen to, you're going to be like, OK, girl. What are you doing?Like, this is Wondery-level production, and Wondery has a team of 12 full-time people.
What are you doing?That's a great question.And it's one that my husband asked me in the hours that I was spending working on this episode.
I mean, this is our anniversary weekend, and I really did everything in my power to complete this episode before we left for St.Bart's, but I didn't finish it. And I certainly, I could have waited.
I could wait another week and I could just record any dumb thing.Y'all said that in your comments.You're like, don't worry about it, girl.Like, get it done when you get it done.The most important thing is the two of you.And I agree.
But I still snuck in a couple of hours here and a couple of hours there.And I wanted to get it to you.Why?Why? I think Dave Hollis is gonna help me answer that question.All right, here's your episode.Thanks for being patient.
Literally everything I do in my life is to live a life that most people can't relate to.
What, Rachel, will the pursuit of these dreams and the travel you do and the work that you do on stages, what will this do to our kids?
I have lost my older brother to suicide.I have found him.I've now lost a child.I lost a baby.I have gone through the most horrible situations in my life.Nothing was darker than that week.I wasn't talking and he was.So he talked a lot.
That's cheating.That is cheating.
Everybody was upset with me.Won't talk about what happened, and I believe that karma will take care of everyone who needs to be taken care of.
I got a lot of DMs asking questions about Heidi and I. We're not together.
I know it's a topic I haven't really talked about much.Dave and I are not together.
I will tell you this, you ain't got to do a stinking thing to be loved by God.He loves you just as you are, just as broken as you are.He loves you like he loves me.And it makes me cry because I need to be loved.
Dave and Rachel had announced their divorce in June of 2020. Their fan base wanted answers.They wanted to know what happened.And they wanted to know what happened for a variety of reasons.Obviously, there are those who are just interested.
It's the same reason why we pick up gossip magazines.Does anyone read magazines anymore?The same reason why we tune in to hear stories of breakup and heartache and things that are more salacious.We find it interesting.But this was different.
It was as if their fan base believed they deserved to know the details.And that was in part because, of course, Dave and Rachel had been hosting marriage conferences.They did a marriage podcast together.
A great deal of their content was centered around marriage and relationship tips.So many of their fans just felt like, well, wait a second. We've been taking your advice.
We've been doing what it is you've told us to do, and we believed you had a successful marriage.And now that it's suddenly over, don't we also kind of deserve to know then why?"
And then, of course, there were those who really felt that they had been scammed, lied to, that the Hollises had intentionally deceived their audience, betrayed them.
And then sometime in late June, as you recall, Dave's own Instagram post kind of seemed to imply that he too had been almost as surprised as the fan base.
In a podcast interview, Dave shared openly that he was grieving the loss of his marriage and grieving what he thought his marriage was.
the grief of what I thought was going to happen.And it wasn't until some time went by that I realized that I had been grieving something that wasn't real.
Dave, once he returned to his podcast, talked about the relationship.He talked openly about his pain.
And even though he had started dating Heidi Powell within months of their announcement of the divorce, and by the way, they were legally still married, Rachel also went on to start dating, but she kept her relationship under wraps.
Dave, although he seemed very happy with Heidi, was also more public about how painful and how grief-stricken he was around the divorce.Fans flocked to his Instagram stories.They started supporting him and showing up for him.
Rachel began pulling back in social media.She stopped showing the kids as much.Dave started showing the kids more. his fans became more connected with him and less so with Rachel.And it seemed obvious that in the divorce, followers had picked sides.
Here's Rachel on the Skinny Confidential Podcast.
Going through a divorce is brutal.I don't care.It's so awful and hard but what was so Unbelievable to me was like I could not fathom How many women attacked me?
For like how dare you you said till death do us part you made vows Nobody was upset with him But everybody was upset with me.
But do you think that's also in part because you guys had, you know, created a business where, you know, you're giving relationship advice.
Why aren't they mad at him?Right?
And if you listen to our relationship advice, if you listen to our podcast, we talked about problems all the time. Here's what we are struggling with.Here's this issue.
And we had very publicly said for five years, we had been working on something that ultimately would be the thing that destroyed us.Because I'm managing the pain of my children, all of this happening inside of COVID.So like, how do I move out?
I had never, and I met him when I was 18.I'd never been an adult by myself.I didn't, just, it was so much. And then it was also like, oh, all these people are super pissed because you're not an example of a good wife.
But as much as her fans or podcast hosts would pry and pry and dig, and YouTube channels would create content trying to figure out why ultimately Dave and Rachel ended their marriage, what was the thing that they were working on for five years, the thing that ultimately ended their marriage?
And then there were the breadcrumbs, Rachel saying that there was something ultimately that happened that left her feeling unsafe. unsafe in her own home.
So she left her marital home, she got her own apartment, but the children, the kids, and Dave stayed in the home.So were the children safe?What was this betrayal?Were fans really expecting them to
take full responsibility and say we scammed you, it was all a ruse for us to make a bunch of money.I don't think anyone really believes that.I don't think that the public truly believes that Rachel and Dave set out to deceive others.
But they were very angry that neither of them ever took responsibility for the impact Not the intent.We know, I think most people assume that their intent was good, but neither of them ever took responsibility for the impact.
And that's what people were craving.People were craving that one or both of them just admit that it had a major impact on the way many viewed their own relationship and their relationship and the trust that they put into this couple.
there's a big difference between your intention and your impact.But your impact is what you have to take responsibility for.
And it would seem that sentiment is exactly what their fans were looking for in this instance and many others that involved Rachel in the previous year and in the months to come.
And regardless of how you might feel, the public might feel, or fans might feel entitled to know the story, You have to have a level, in my opinion, a level of respect for someone who knows that they have to do something that's off-brand.
In other words, keep something private.Someone who had built their brand, allegedly, on sharing everything, and now she has information which could vindicate her, it would seem.Information that
Because she wasn't sharing it with the public, the public was growing angrier and more resentful of her.
There were lots of podcast titles that people assumed, implied that this was going to be the episode where Rachel finally shares what it was that ended the marriage.But to most people's disappointment, no one ever got the true details.
I felt like people kicking you when I was at one of my lowest points in my life.And the crazy thing was nobody knew the truth and still people don't know the truth.And they don't know the truth because I want to protect my children.
I'm not an investigative reporter.I mean, I feel like I am doing this project, but I am a mother and I, my heart, really is there for Rachel in this decision.I can't imagine having the strength to endure.I mean, we're not just talking social media.
Every major news outlet was coming for Rachel.She was internet and media fodder.People wanted to tear her down as quickly as they had built her up after Girl, Wash Your Face. As a mother, I deeply respect her decision.
And because of that, I will not be sharing information, even strong hypotheses about what that thing was, because frankly, it doesn't matter. We know that it related to a betrayal.
I'm of the opinion that the specific nature of that betrayal is kind of irrelevant to the story.I also deeply respect the public's desire get answers.And it's driven by our own natural, very human curiosity.It's not just that we are nosy.
The brain wants to find meaning in chaos.It's how we get closure.It's how we understand the unexpected.So when something happens that's, you know, shocking, like like a celebrity divorce or even a high profile suicide.
It disrupts our sense of normalcy and predictability in our own lives.And so we often will continually ask for more detail so that we can process and make sense of our own lives so we can
we can put together a picture that allows us to predict what might happen to ourselves and to others.
It's the same reason why whenever there's a couple who we all thought were perfect, or had the ideal marriage, or we idealized their relationship, and we learn that they are divorcing, we wanna know why.
Even if it's someone who hadn't shared all the details of their lives.Even when it's celebrities who otherwise keep things rather private. But it's important to understand how the tide had shifted.
The sentiment in social media, the sentiment of social change, it was around this time you started hearing so much everywhere about privilege.People were super divisive online.
And the enemy became influencers, especially influencers who were thought to be out of touch.And especially those who the public believed was curating their authenticity. And especially in social media, people were looking for those cracks.
They were looking for those signs.They were looking for an opportunity to figure out if, in fact, this person who we have all followed, this person with a million followers, this person with social clout, were they who they said they were?
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Rachel is dealing with the resentment of her audience, an audience who she believes she's dedicated her life to, while simultaneously going through an incredibly expensive and often divisive divorce.
Regardless of how initially they wanted to paint it in the media, we later learn it was very contentious. Dave wasn't the CEO, Rachel was.It was Rachel who had to show up with a strong face for her team.
It was Rachel who had to figure out how to pay back creditors and debtors and to pick up the pieces and the fallout of their
venues that have been cancelled, their events that have been cancelled, their joint opportunities like the fitness app and the many other business partnerships that Dave and Rachel had planned together.Rachel decides to move out of the family home
And it's never clear, she's never, that I could find discussed why that decision was made, why Dave was left in the house with the kids, but we know they split time between both Dave and Rachel.
It had to have felt as though her life was hemorrhaging from every angle.Her business, the events, her bank account, her home and life as she knew it, and her following.
Meanwhile, YouTube and Reddit threads dedicated to breaking apart and analyzing every single word that Rachel Hollis posted, every video that she created on TikTok and every move that she made became incredibly popular.
Media outlets quickly followed suit.Every major news outlet in America at some point ran stories about the end of their marriage.
And more often than not, because again, Rachel was not sharing the reasons why, oftentimes the stories, if not implicitly implied that she was the problem, that's definitely what many of the female readers took away from those stories.
Rachel describes herself at this time as feeling this overwhelming burden.
A burden from the public, a burden to keep the secret from her children, this burden to pay off her ex-husband, this burden to try to rebuild her business, this burden to apologize to her audience.Her internal anger was growing.
When something's under pressure, when something's squeezed, what is inside of it will come out.And I was so, so angry about having to hold all of this and had held all of this for so many years, that it was like someone poked.
It was the exact right thing of poking how I had help to be able to do all of these things and take care of four kids by myself. And that was just the straw that broke the camel's back.
But when we're in pain or when we have those emotions, your ego is gonna turn it into like, well, I'm gonna clap back at you.And if you put something out from a place of anger, you're gonna get anger back.
Rachel went live on Instagram and responded to, quote, a hater in her comments.And then she took to TikTok to retell the story.
Okay, yesterday I was doing a live stream and I mentioned that there's a sweet woman who comes to my house twice a week and cleans.She's my house cleaner.She cleans the toilets.Someone commented and said, you are privileged AF.
And I was like, you're right.I'm super freaking privileged, but also I worked my ass off to have the money to have someone come twice a week and clean my toilets.And I told her that, and then she said, well, you're unrelatable.
What is it about me that made you think, I want to be relatable?
Everything that you did, every part of your brand, every word that you spoke, every keynote that you gave, your brand was built on being relatable.
No, sis.Literally everything I do in my life is to live a life that most people can't relate to.Most people won't work this hard.Most people won't get up at 4 a.m.Most people won't fail publicly again and again just to reach the top of the mountain.
Literally every woman I admire in history was unrelatable.If my life is relatable to most people, I'm doing it wrong.
This TikTok quickly went viral and was just as quickly deleted.But of course, you can find it all over the internet.
And I have to tell you, it's worth taking a look at because you can really see how, at least it feels to me, like Rachel is very angry in this video.She's angry.She's angry with her followers.
She's angry in, this is my estimation, she's angry that she's been,
forced to show up, or at least she feels as though she's had to show up a certain way for people, and that she's been hiding who she really is, who she really is as someone who does not want to be relatable.
And if that was her new goal, well, she succeeded. By making a comment that she works so hard and wakes up at 4 a.m.and works harder than anybody else and that's why she is more successful than her cleaning lady really rubbed people the wrong way.
But that wasn't the worst of it. Because certainly there are plenty of people who wake up at 4am or at 3am and work longer days and work harder and don't have Rachel's success.So it isn't just about working hard or the failures.
Literally every woman I admire in history was unrelatable.If my life is relatable to most people, I'm doing it wrong.
that TikTok is now referred to as, quote, toilet gate.Immediately, Reddit threads exploded.And what people were most upset about was her caption.
She wrote Harriet Tubman, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Marie Curie, Oprah Winfrey, Amelia Earhart, Frida, Malala Yousafzai.I can't pronounce any of these names.And a bunch of other very remarkable women in history.
She says, dot, dot, dot, they're all unrelatable AF.Happy Women's History Month.She immediately came under fire.I mean, people were just outraged that she basically was insinuating that they were unrelatable just like her.
People were outraged that many of the women she referenced were marginalized or women of color.It felt like a bait and switch.
It felt like someone had shown up as this humble, relatable, hands-in-pocket, girl-next-door, the friend whose humor landed so well because she was self-deprecating. But now she's telling us, no, I am like Harriet Tubman.I am like Oprah Winfrey.
I am not relatable.And many people say that this particular TikTok is what shifted the tides in almost a 180 away from or against Rachel. The comments on her Instagram are just horrific.I mean, they're so angry.And Rachel goes dark on Instagram.
She goes dark on all platforms, doesn't post for almost a week.And then she posts a now-deleted first apology.Let me read that to you.I didn't respond to these things on Friday when I heard that people were upset.
Instead, I listened to my team instead of my gut. I listened when they told me not to respond, to let it blow over."
In the post, she also completely denies the fact that she was comparing herself in any way to the women who she referenced as being unrelatable.I mean, she's almost gaslighting people who made that assumption.
She said, it is ludicrous that you make the assumption, I'm comparing myself to these women simply because I mentioned them. Well, that apology made things worse.And within just a couple of hours, that post was deleted.
Blaming her staff for things like this, like the timing of her apology.She also blamed her staff when she was accused of plagiarizing quotes. oftentimes from black authors and leaders and not giving them credit.
And when called on the carpet for that, she claimed that it was her team that posted it instead of taking personal responsibility.That was a real learning lesson for me.
At that time, I was anyone in the space who was growing their following, who had a lot of followers, who had was also running a business like myself, a CEO, and also a content creator.There are many times where
The creation of content is so overwhelming, you need help.And there were times where I tried to outsource all of the content creation.
But when that happened with Rachel, it was a reminder to me that like every single word that's on my page that is being posted, even the way a video might be edited, I have to see it before it goes up, because it's a representation of me.
And ultimately, I am responsible.But the blaming of the team, becomes a theme with Rachel.In her second apology, Rachel wrote, I'm not going to do this perfectly.I'm going to speak from my heart.
I am so deeply sorry for the things that I said in my recent post and the hurt that I've caused in the past few days. It was a several carousel post.
She said, I know I've caused tremendous pain in the mentioning of prominent women, including several women of color whose struggles and achievements I can't possibly understand.
By talking about my own success, I diminished the struggles and the hard work of many people who work tirelessly every day.I disregarded the people whose hard work doesn't afford them financial security.
often due to inherently racist and biased systems.I did not allow a space for people to voice their anger, hurt, and disappointment, which caused even more pain.
I acknowledge my privilege and the advantage I have as a white woman, no matter how I grew up.
There are many things I would like to say to reiterate just how sorry I am, but the important thing for me to do now, something I should have already done, is honestly be quiet and listen.
I know I have disappointed many people, myself included, and I take full accountability.I'm so sorry. People just were, they didn't believe that these were really her words.The internet lives on and on.
So even though her previous post had been deleted, her fans and the people who were paying attention knew that her original post was probably her true sentiments.And this one read very much like it was crafted by a skilled PR professional.
This wasn't a small controversy.This was huge. In later podcast interviews, Rachel says it was her PR team that reached out to her while she was at Six Flags with her kids to let her know that she had a major crisis on her hands.
She explains that her PR team, who was helping her with a book at the time, told her not to respond to any comments.Not to respond to anything.But Rachel just couldn't take it.So that first response was in fact her words.
And it was in fact the PR team that crafted ultimately what Rachel posted as her apology. But many experts in crisis management believe it was too little, too late, and too many hypocrisies, too many contradictory statements had been made.
Rachel was angry with her audience, and her audience was angry with her. Fans immediately began asking for refunds for upcoming events that they had registered for.
People started canceling any business or support financially that they were giving to Rachel Hollis.And the cancellation continued to trickle down.
outside of Rachel, including anyone who was scheduled to speak at an upcoming event where Rachel might be at or an event that Rachel was hosting.
Customers and followers of other thought leaders, other business leaders, other digital marketers, other experts in personal development, their audiences started reaching out to those individuals and asking what their stance was on Rachel Hollis, demanding that they take a stance.
Ultimately, Rachel had to cancel countless events.
Sources that will remain anonymous have shared with me that many of these influencers, personal development leaders, thought leaders, speakers that she had lined up to appear at her events tried to reach out to her, tried to have conversations with her.
tried to, in fact, support her, understand what had happened.But Rachel wasn't responding.She wasn't returning text messages, phone calls, or emails.She took a break from social media and the podcast.
Later again in the podcast with the Skinny Confidential, listen to how Rachel described the impact of that experience.
I have lost my older brother to suicide.I have, I found him.I've now lost a child.I lost a baby actually the day that I was supposed to come and do this podcast the first time I had gone for an ultrasound and there was no heartbeat.
So that's why I didn't do this with you all the first time.Yeah.But I have gone through the most horrible situations in my life. Nothing was darker than that week.It was the darkest time of my entire life.
That's a lot to unpack.More devastating than finding her older brother after his suicide.More devastating than having to tell her children that She and their dad were getting a divorce.More devastating than losing a child.
How people viewed her, what people thought about her was more devastating than all of those things.And I don't mean in any way, shape or form to minimize the experiences she had. Not at all.I would never want that.I can't imagine it.I really can't.
But the things that she compares it to publicly, to say that it was more painful than those other things, I think gives us a very clear indication of what motivates, drives, and what is most important to Rachel Hollis.
And I don't think we should just brush past the comment that she made.Did you catch that?She said, it was more devastating than losing a child.
And she says in that interview, in fact, you know, I don't know if you guys know this, but I canceled on y'all last time because I went to get an ultrasound and there was no heartbeat with the baby.Now at that time, she was dating
the gentleman who she's still dating today.I'm going to leave his name out of this story because I don't think it relates.But again, here she is revealing something that's just so personal.
And we know that her current boyfriend, through her own admission, that's just not something she wants to share.But it seems in this instance, to serve her, or at least perhaps she believed it would.
I can understand canceling on a major podcast, you know, these two have a hugely popular podcast, The Skinny Confidential.And if she had to cancel an appearance, I can understand having to tell them that,
Privately maybe but to put it on the podcast and then to just quickly breeze past it and to explain beyond that again that the fallout and the controversy that ensued in the cancellation really that ensued after a
the Instagram live, after the TikTok, after her failed attempts at apologies and her failed attempts at truly taking responsibility, that that was more painful than all of those things is certainly very telling.
She explains, however, that the experience has transformed who she is.That today, she no longer feels controlled by or beholden to the comments of strangers on the internet.She certainly has boundaries in place, and I commend her for that.
Okay, ever since I started using oils to keep my skin very, very hydrated, like castor oil, etc., you know, I put it all over my body, and then I don't want to have to wash my hair the next day.
So even though I've been sleeping on a silk pillowcase, I'm like, how do I keep my hair completely off my shoulders, off my skin while I'm sleeping and I caved and I got a silk bonnet.
Do I feel a little bit like Little House on the Prairie when I put it on at night?Yes, I do.But hear me out.
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With this big giant scrunchie, I sometimes just put it on top of my head. It reduces frizz and tangles, prevents breakage.It's 100% mulberry silk, which means it's washable and hypoallergenic.
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Use code Shaleen for an additional 30% off. It's difficult.I can tell you firsthand.It's hard to read a lot of negative comments.
And the more comments you get, the more popularity you have, the more people who listen to a podcast, the more likely you are to have people who don't agree with you, people who have negative things to say, and sometimes people who just don't like you and they want to ruin your day.
It happens.And it is painful.So it is important to have boundaries up.I don't like to read that stuff.It gets to me too. but it comes with the territory. So you have to establish boundaries.You have to learn not to let it sink in.
Or you have to step away from social media.There is no way to prepare yourself for notoriety.You can't possibly know how it is you're going to deal with it and what it's going to feel like by simply trying to imagine it.
And for some, that notoriety, the fame, the followers, whether it's celebrity or a social media influencer or a content creator,
Some people, when they reach that level of notoriety and they weren't really prepared for it, or maybe never even wanted it for themselves, the scrutiny, the pressure, the opinions of others, and having to show up or feeling as though you have to show up as
what people want versus really being able to be who you are, that pressure becomes too much.
And every day we see content creators and influencers, people who've risen to sudden fame, announcing or sometimes not announcing, sometimes just disappearing, leaving social media, sometimes leaving behind a business, a brand.
And in the worst of cases, some of these people take their own lives. And while all of this is happening in Rachel's life, Dave's life begins to take on almost, from the outsider's perspective, a version of Groundhog's Day.
He's back in front of the camera with a woman who's a social media influencer with four kids. And fans almost feel as though they've watched this program before.They've seen this story.
Some of the characters' names are different, but so much of the plot feels the same. fans couldn't help but notice how many similarities there were in the relationship between Heidi and Dave and Rachel and Dave.
Well, except in this case, now oftentimes Dave sat on the opposite side that he used to sit on with Rachel and they were going live, showing up on each other's social media, in their stories, in their feed, sharing pictures and posts of
their blended families and talking about how how wonderful it was to have all of these people who got along and loved and supported each other.
Yeah, I mean like I sat on the back patio two times.Oh, I think it was when it was Mother's Day weekend.I was out here hanging out for Mother's Day weekend.Your two exes happened to have come in.We were having a business conversation of all things.
We were, right here on this patio.
Four of us hanging out right where you're sitting.And it was like, they're just, they're good dudes.They're good people. And as far as Rachel's concerned, it's so crazy.So she's been dating someone.
They just recently were using something of a question-asking game themselves that when she was done with the questions was like, hey, you should use this for you and Heidi to get to know each other better.It's an awesome thing.
And so everyone is interested. In everyone being happy, it doesn't mean that it's easy.I totally and completely agree.It's not always easy.There's always going to be little things.
And yet, this is like a thing that, hey, if you had to choose, wouldn't you choose to just try and root for everyone to be happy?I think we feel lucky for being inside of a situation where there's five human beings rooting for each other.
Dave and Heidi often shared photos and posts of each other showing the families blended together, Heidi with her two past exes and the children she had with them and now her relationship with Dave and his kids.
And there was just this sense that the next book that was likely in the works was how to co-parent and how to have a successful divorce.
Dave had left one relationship and now was immediately in what felt like a very similar situation to his past relationship.Now he's working on his physique.He's turning into a fitness person, transforming his physique.
the things he talks about, and his personality to support, perhaps, or maybe to conform to what it was he believed Heidi wanted him to be.I can't help but notice that Dave wants to do things with someone else.
If he's doing a video, he wants it to be with Noah.It's Noah and Dave's tea time.In fact, he would often do YouTube videos with their three, maybe four-year-old daughter at the time, Noah.
where he would film the two of them in Noah's bedroom at tea time, pretending to have tea and conversations and imparting with her some kind of life lesson.
Can we get to our topic of the day?Yeah.All right.Whoa, I got to teach you something.
You're going to clean your cup too?
Wow.Thank you for cleaning my cup. There's your cup.Why don't you call a special message from your dad, because I'm trying to drop some knowledge on you right now.You have to always be comfortable being you.
Don't worry about trying to make everybody happy.You know why?It's impossible to make everybody happy. You're leaving me hanging.Don't leave me hanging.Thank you.What's in our drink?Is it milk?Yeah.Oh.Cheers.
I really do hope and pray that someday she treasures those videos.We never know how our children are going to look back on childhood memories and how they process them and what role they play in their future.
It wasn't too many years ago that I just think it became the norm for people to use their children to get internet fame.
It was really common for YouTubers especially, family YouTubers, family vloggers, who would show every single thing that happened on YouTube. a camera rolling on these kids' most intimate private moments.
But in recent years, there's been a major shift.And I think we're going to see less and less of that.
And I think we're going to see, in not too many years, kids who have now come of age who really feel exploited by the things that their parents put on camera for the sake of views and likes and monetizing videos. It's so easy to judge in retrospect.
It's so easy for any of us who didn't do something to look back at others who did and go like, yeah, I would have never done that.
But think about some of the things you've probably posted on social media that your parents or the generation before you would never have posted because they were maybe more personal, something that you would only share with family,
But it's kind of the thing to do.It becomes the norm.And when your job, your business, relies on social media for traction, and I'm speaking for myself, this is true for me too, you look at what other people are doing that's getting traction,
And you think to yourself, okay, I guess that's what I should be doing too.And then the more it becomes the norm, like the more like everyone's doing this, then you see more and more people doing it.And then it just becomes the accepted norm.
and it wasn't just Heidi, and it wasn't just Noah that Dave was now filming content with.He also had a short-lived series with one of his sons named Ford.
The segment was called Ford for Thought, and typically, it was Dave and Ford, and Ford just sharing his random thoughts about different topics.It's pretty cute.
Hi, this is Ford for Thought, a show that I never thought I would do.
What is Ford for Thought?
Just where me and you just talk about all the random things in life that could be thought about.
Well, that sounds right.What are we going to talk about on the first episode of Ford for Thought?
In one episode, I guess in an effort to surprise Dave for Father's Day, Heidi films with Ford.In their conversation, they begin talking about like what kind of gifts you would get your father for Father's Day.
In this clip, Heidi is sharing with Ford some examples of some great things Dave had done for him. And in doing so, you can just see when you're watching the video that it's a very different experience for Ford than it is for Heidi.
And in fact, he is a very bright nine-year-old who kind of puts two and two together.
I remember seeing videos and pictures of your dad building that track himself.He had someone come over, a neighbor, and they were plowing that track.Do you remember that? Uh, I wasn't there for it.I got to see videos.
I wasn't here for it, but I got to see videos.
Wait, you guys were dating them?I don't know the beginning of your dating history.
I don't know if dating is the right word, but your dad and I were friends at that time.What did your dad love the most?Uh, you.
Then Heidi proceeds to ask for it on camera. if he sees his father cry a lot.
He's a little bit mushy.He's got a heart, you know?Does your dad cry a lot?
No.No?I've never seen him cry in my entire life.You've never seen him cry?Well, I think he like a little bit teared up when he admitted to us that my parents were getting divorced.Oh, yeah.
And then suddenly the episode of Ford for Thought that was supposed to be a Father's Day gift for Dave seems like the appropriate opportunity for Heidi to tell Ford the story of how Heidi and Dave met.
I have no clue about the story, how I met your dad.
No, I don't know.So a couple months after the divorce, your mom and dad talked about getting, and they were going through their divorce.Your dad invited me over, not invited me over.He invited me to a podcast.
So we were going to podcast about divorce because I had just gone through a divorce.I have Cash and Ruby and Maddox and Marley who had all been through the divorce.And so he had four kids, you being one of them.
And I had four kids that were all experiencing a really hard thing. that most of the world experiences called divorce.And so we were gonna film a podcast about it or record one.
But when I came over, your dad was sad and he was having a hard time and he cried a little bit.And so we've decided, that's why I asked if you've seen him crying.We decided not to record the podcast.
And instead we just talked about divorce and we became friends.That's how your dad and I met.What do you think about that?Sad.
And as awkward as that is, as hard as that is to listen to, in Ford's own words, as sad as that is to listen to, I also, if my kids had been that age around that time, I probably would have done this dumb s*** too.Because
It's confusing and I'm not excusing any of it because once you start to build your brand in social media, which everyone and anyone is doing who's got a brand to build.
I mean, if you're an entrepreneur, if you're someone who has something to offer the public, probably doing something in social media and trying to build
audience you're trying to build trust with people and so there's this belief that influencers and people who are on social media are the new vanguards of authenticity and transparency and You watch what other people are doing and you're thinking well, you know if this is how they're showing their lives this is how they're being genuine and
and creating connection in their platforms.And I guess this is what I'm supposed to be doing too, and I have nothing to hide.So it would make sense that a lot of influencers started bringing their kids. into their platforms.
And it's a way to build a closer connection with your followers and viewers who are also parents.And it's easy to think to yourself, to convince yourself, I'm not oversharing.I'm just being transparent.I'm being authentic.
And in this moment, I'm able to connect with other parents who might be going through something.
And then there's the positive vanity loop where you start getting more likes and more engagement because you've shown something with your child and the audience loves anything with kids.
And so naturally, we start seeing influencers do what I like to call performative parenting.And if you think about the difference between what male influencers post and what female influencers post, it's starkly different.
For the dude, he can pose on the jet.People love seeing him flying from city to city, doing appearances, taking 11 p.m.meetings.
But for the female entrepreneurs, they want to see content that leads us to believe you can be a great mom and be connected and all wear matching pajamas and also be a boss babe.Maybe we need to dig into performative parenting in another podcast.
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Go to shaleen.com forward slash midi, M I D I. The link will be in our show description, but just in case it's my name, shaleen.com. That way they'll know that I sent you and I'm so excited for you to try this.Back to Heidi.
This is not her child and it's certainly uncomfortable to hear and to listen to this very intimate conversation.One that's probably pretty honest from Ford's standpoint.And this is where things get muddy.
It's when there's more of a performance around being genuine than a reality.When people on social media and influencers etc are
They're really trying to maintain this delicate balance of like sharing every part of their lives in a way that feels very intimate.
It feels very honest, but maybe at the same time, they're also navigating their professional brand, their professional role.And it's a very paradoxical situation.It can challenge anybody to create this transparency.
when at the same time, it can result in a meticulously crafted persona.And then you see so many of these influencers start to break down because you can't fake who you are without it taking a toll on your mental state.In September of 2021,
Heidi and Dave do their first fitness challenge together.They're regularly showing up in social media and fans are beginning to notice an awkwardness, almost a desperation that they're really pushing hard to build these masterminds and
weekend retreats, these paid challenges, these paid fitness challenges, where Heidi often explains that Dave's gonna be a part of them too.You see Dave getting right back into the same place he was before, showing up as the sidekick, the Ed McMahon.
But he's growing weary, and you can sense it.And sometimes when he doesn't get it right, when his joke doesn't land, and it gets pointed out to him,
There's just a passive-aggressive exchange that we didn't hear or see when he was on camera with Rachel.
We got a new one last time, and the time before, and the time before.
If we ever do a canned food drive, though, we're ready.We're ready.
But it's not canned.It's aptly canned for a canned food drive.
Well, you know, I mean, I'll be honest.I'm not really ever going to do a canned food drive.It was more of a thing you say to get a laugh than it is a real thing.But now you've ruined it because I can't take it. All right.
But we're seeing it and we're hearing it now a lot more often.And you see this nervousness where Heidi's looking back and forth, looking back and forth, you know, from the camera to Dave.And she can sense that he's upset.
And now she's laughing awkwardly and trying to make sure that he's OK.And there's something in their body language that viewers definitely pick up on.There's something going on between the two of them.
There's an awkwardness that you just, you can hide in words, but in body language and eye contact and demeanor, it's almost impossible to cover it up.
Heidi's four kids in Arizona, Dave's four children in Texas, traveled back and forth with their parents to each respective partner's home.Followers began to speculate that the two would soon get engaged, or perhaps they were engaged.
But as quickly as those rumors began to circulate, new rumors would circulate that Heidi had broken up with Dave, and the status of their relationship became the number one question on the minds of their fans.
Are you both moving in together, what state?That's two questions.All right, so the question is, are you moving in together, what state?The answer is, we're going to go back and forth between Texas and Arizona for years.
As long as we have paper in the house.As long as we have to, yeah.Well, didn't that just stress you out with me saying that?No.I heard a deep sigh.
No.I heard.We're gonna do it for as long as we have to.
Who says you have to live in one house and with eight kids having a little bit of space has actually been a beautiful thing?Because another thing we've learned is parenting styles, like my kids have been raised for 16 years a certain way.
His kids have been raised 14 years a certain way.And so to try and blend that with eight right now, and we're 973 miles away, feels more challenging than giving a little bit of space and doing things when the time feels right.
That response and that video came as a real surprise to fans and followers.In that video Dave and Heidi were taking fans on a little tour of some of the upgrades and remodeling they were doing to the the former marital home of Heidi and Chris.
Remember Chris was Heidi's second husband.And at a certain point in the relationship between Dave Hollis and Heidi Powell, Heidi started referring to that home as our home, meaning the home of Dave and Heidi.
Shortly after the announcement of the divorce of Heidi Powell and Chris Powell, that home went on the market listed at 1.3 million.But shortly thereafter, internet sleuths Uncovered that the home had been purchased by a trust established by Dave.
And this video, wherein Heidi basically says, we need to stay apart a little longer and here's why, created quite a buzz in the Reddit and YouTube communities.Some were sad for Dave. Was this Heidi's way of saying they were taking a break?
And clearly they had talked about this before, but yet in that video you can hear and see that Dave's reaction, it's fresh, it's new.And that's why I think Heidi says, did that stress you out that I said that?
Maybe Dave wasn't ready for this to be public knowledge. Dave was no longer married to the woman who was filling arenas with 10,000 attendees.He was no longer the CEO of Hollis Co.
And like many of us, Dave closely believed his worth, his value, was tied to the amount of success that he could create.
I grew up with a really interesting relationship to achievement.Achievement in whatever form it would take. Was my access point to love.If I could score the most goals in soccer memorized the most verses and youth group get the best grades school.
I would be the recipient of love from those I created from the most.But the double edged part of that sword is that.
When you become an addict for love through achievement, if achievement is pulled away, if you have become in any way accustomed to feeling good about yourself because of the way that people respond to the things that you create, when that goes away, how do you feel about yourself?
From a financial standpoint, now Dave was relying on the income of his second book. And if you know much about how much money authors make from books, you know, that could have been pretty stressful.It was November of 2021.
And Dave had started down a path he knew very well.Launching his second book.
Now, an author who releases a book and really just wants to get the words out to the world, that's a very different scenario from an author who releases a book with the intention, with the need, with the goal, with the objective,
of selling a lot of books.That, in and of itself, is such a full-time, incredibly stressful commitment.
But when you've had a previous New York Times bestseller, as Dave did, and your now ex-wife has three New York Times bestsellers, coupled with the admission that you get your own self-worth from being the best, being number one, accomplishment and achievement,
I can only imagine what Dave must have been feeling.Many people will never know what truly goes into getting a book on the New York Times bestseller list.And it's, of course, never a guarantee.
But the amount of work, the amount of networking, the amount of appearances, the commitment that it takes financially, emotionally, and from a time perspective on the part of that author is something I do not wish on my worst enemy.
It's a reason why I'll never write another book so long as I live with that objective.
But when you define yourself and your self-worth based on that accomplishment and you couple that with the need financially to sell a lot of books, now it's not just about the title or the recognition.
Now these book sales matter financially and people weren't buying the book. As he often did, Dave took to Instagram and Facebook Live just as the sun was coming up one very early morning in November.He's clearly agitated.
He starts the live off letting viewers know that they need to buckle up.
Why do you follow me if you haven't bought my book?Why do you follow me?If you follow me and haven't bought my book, Unfollow me.
I would prefer to lose all of the people who are not interested in buying the thing that I have dedicated the last 18 months of my life to, that I have poured every single bit of my being into, than allow you to show up and breach our contract.
Because this is our contract. I will show up every single day for y'all.We're starting a book club on Wednesday.Wednesday, the third day of November.Third of November, right?
We're gonna start a book club and I am gonna get up every single day and I am going to hand you a 50 plus page PDF workbook for free. And some of you are just going to join the lives.That's cheating.That is cheating.I've written a book for you.
It is 18 American dollars.It is 18 American dollars.
Shortly after this live was posted, Heidi took to her Instagram stories and shared it, saying that this was the most passionate and real she had ever seen Dave Hollis. And some might call this passion.Others might hear desperation and anger.
But many viewers heard a dry mouth and a frantic energy that they hadn't heard from Dave before.Dave stays on this live for two hours.
It's called Built Through Courage.It's $18.We're going to start a book club on Wednesday.You're all invited. But you know who I only want to show up?
People that invested in themselves $18 worth, $18 worth, because I am 100% certain, I'm gonna wake somebody up in the Hollis house, it's so quiet here, please Dave, don't yell, $18.Let's get back to peace for a second, $18.
I'm just letting you know that I don't mind because it's my calling.This is my life.
Like, Dave, are you really gonna show up every day for 40 consecutive days and teach us for nearly an hour's worth of time, give us a free PDF workbook for just kicks?No, it's not kicks.I'm gonna do it because this is my calling.
I don't have a choice.I was brought here.
Those words, I don't have a choice, No one will know for sure what he meant by those words.Was he brought here and called to this place by God?Or is it that Dave didn't feel he had a choice because he was brought here by someone or something else?
Had Rachel brought him here? had social media led him to this place.viewers watched as he continued to melt down, repeating over and over that the book was only $18.and if you watch the entire live as i have, you can't help but feel like
Dave isn't making a case for the fact that his book is only $18.It's almost as if he's saying, I have given you, the viewer, and everyone around me, every piece of me.I've shown up not as myself and now all I'm asking is for some validation.
As the live continues, Dave gets more animated, more impassioned, and louder.Eventually, the kids begin to wake up and come out onto the patio where he's filming.One comes out in a dinosaur costume, desperate to get Dave's attention.
His youngest, Noah, makes an appearance in her pajamas. and tells her father that she wants him to make pancakes.Each time one of the kids interrupts, viewers encourage Dave to take a break from the live.Go spend time with your kids.
It looks like the kids are hungry.Maybe you should make Noah pancakes.And Dave is reading the comments.He's responding to the comments. Yet he continues to promote the book.And his desperation feels as though it's growing more and more intense.
As a parent who's ever had to make an important phone call or be live on Zoom during the pandemic, you know, our kids often have this sixth sense, this way of knowing that right now you need to be focused and you need for them to entertain themselves.
Dave just continues to remind viewers, the book is only $18.I need you to do this.
You can feel that Dave is struggling to balance a little bit of interaction with the kids, to stay calm and level-headed for his viewers, to share wisdom from the book, but at the same time, respond to comments and continually encourage people to buy the book.
The challenge of maintaining focus and composure is real.
The way that you end up having a relationship with yourself though ends up being it.Yep.Okay.All right.Now we're going to go.Now we're gonna go.Okay.Last time.Last one.I'm doing it one more time.I feel like I'm at the Jerry Lewis telethon.
I want so badly for Ed McMahon to still be alive because I want to tell him to go to a tote board.There is no tote board.This isn't even about totes.
I am interested more than anything in making sure that you don't miss an opportunity to have agency in your life and change it. This book is no joke.I know I have bias.I wrote it.Okay.I wrote it.I know I have bias.Yes.
We tell these people to buy this book real quick.No, don't.I don't want to use you to sell books.Hold on one sec.Stop.You had your two vitamins.I know this game.We are not playing the two more vitamins game.Two more vitamins and not till bedtime.
It is nine 14 in the am.You've got like 10 hours.
His daughter Noah repeatedly returns to Dave's side, asking again for pancakes. Eventually, Dave would say to Noah, get a life.And if you'll recall from a much earlier episode, Dave often used that phrase with the kids in jest.And viewers loved it.
They thought it was funny, relatable.But in a matter of hours of releasing this live, Dave had his own public relations nightmare on his hands.And people were brutal.
I was, I was in a season of struggling.I was really, I was struggling.
And I had a hard time, I had a hard time struggling and being motivational and inspirational and happy online because it felt like the thing that the audience was interested in me being. because it was disconnected from the truth of my experience.
There was dissonance between a smiley, happy, joking, let's go version of me and the way that I was feeling in the dark place that I found myself sitting in.
In episode eight, we'll understand much more about those very dark places that Dave Hollis found himself in the months leading up to his death in February of 2022. Well, I hope you enjoyed that.
If you want to hear more of the series, you can find it on Patreon.We will put a link in the show notes.It's patreon.com forward slash The Chalene Show.
If you like storytelling, and maybe you're not interested in knowing more about the Dave Hollis and Rachel Hollis story, I'm currently doing a series on Beachbody.It is currently, I think I'm on my seventh episode.
And you can also find that on Patreon as well. I like doing the storytelling and I do lots of other deep dives.Like I'm doing one on hibistrophilia and some other interesting takes.
Of course, that's where you can also find my fear of missing alcohol deep dive.All of that's over on Patreon.In the meantime, we'll be back on Friday with the normal Chalene Show stuff.
You know, we'll talk about longevity and health and beauty and all the things that help you to live a little longer and feel younger longer.I love you.I mean it.And I'll talk to you soon.
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