Welcome to the Big Careers, Small Children podcast.My name is Ferina Hefti.I believe that no one should have to choose between becoming a CEO and enjoying their young children.
For much too long, amazing people, like I'm sure you listening right now, have found themselves stuck on the career ladder when they have children.
and that leads to gender inequality in senior leadership because those people don't progress to senior leadership and the same stale, often male, middle-class people leading our organisations.
We must change this together and I hope that many of you listening right now will progress to the most senior leadership roles that you like, where you can make the decisions that make our world a better place.
Outside of the podcast, I am the CEO and founder of the social enterprise Leaders Plus.We exist to help working parents progress their careers to senior leadership in a way that works for you and for your families.
We have free events and resources on leadersplus.org where you can download helpful toolkits such as on returning from maternity leave, shared parental leave, securing a promotion, dealing with workload challenges or managing as a dual career couple.
We also have an award-winning fellowship community which is global for working parents who have big dreams for their careers but don't want to sacrifice their family.
You'll join an absolutely wonderful group of people, a very tight-knit supportive group of parents who have your back.
Together you'll explore what your career aspirations are and you'll get advice from senior leaders who are also working parents about how to achieve those aspirations.
You'll get new ideas to combine your hopes for your careers with your hope for your family and you are supported by people who are experiencing what you're experiencing yourself.
I'm really delighted that a larger majority of our fellows have made tangible changes following the programme, be that becoming more senior in their roles, working shorter hours, having better flexible working arrangements.
They always impress me so much with the courage that they instill in each other to do what is right for them without apologizing for having a family or apologizing for wanting that top job.Details are on leadersplus.org forward slash fellowship.
Today I'm talking to Tiffany Souder about routines to make it easier to combine a big career and young children, about how she built a huge company from the start, and also about how to enter networking spaces that you might not naturally be invited to.
For example, a room full of presidents, as she did. Enjoy the conversations.
Thank you for having me on.I'm looking forward to the conversation.I'm Tiffany Sauter, and I live in Indianapolis in the US.And I guess professionally, I started a marketing agency when I was 25 years old.My background is in finance.
And through a strange series of events, I found myself buying a small company at 25 and then spent the last almost 20 years building that agency into one of the largest in the Midwest. Today, I have a president who runs the day-to-day of that.
I've learned I'm a startup kind of leader and CEO.I'm good at the first 7 to 10 million, and then I really start to not enjoy the process and scale that needs to come.
And so I've put someone in place who's doing a great job and continues to build that business.My husband, he's also a firstborn.We're both firstborns in our family, and so kind of have this high-achieving
gene of wanting to do all the things in the world.So he was an Ivy League football player and has gone on to do lots of things in business and runs a company today that's owned by a family here in the United States.And we have four kids.
They're all girls, much to my surprise.And I had from 15 to 3 years old.So 15, 12, eight and almost four.So they're pretty far apart and I had one in my 20s, two in my 30s and one at 40.
So my friends tease me that I was a young mom with kids and now I am just a mom with young kids.
Very kind friends I can see.Can you share with me one thing you used to believe about combining a big career with young children that you don't subscribe to anymore?Oh, what a good question.
I think I used to believe that I was going to have to make sacrifices on things I cared about and loved.And I think I have learned that I don't actually have to sacrifice things I love to get to where I want to go.
That doesn't mean there is not sacrifice.And I have come to accept and I think almost enjoy that everybody in our family has to give some for my husband and I to both work outside of the home and have big careers.
And I am at peace with that because I think it's good for our kids to also feel at times and in seasons that they have to support us. And then it's not just a one-way street.
We're there to just make their life as simple as possible and give them everything they need.And it's like definitely a two-way street.And I love that our family feels like a team in that way.
Interesting.So that sounds Brilliant.But also it's very far from the reality in my house.And I'm just really interested in how do you feel you can push back to the needs of a four year old?And I'm saying this as someone who does try to push back
more often than not unsuccessfully, without you feeling that you are not a good enough mom.
So just to give you an example, my three-year-old and six-year-old, they're both very clear on how much time they want with mommy and how they want mommy to pay attention.And there are often times where I have to set boundaries to those needs.
And I've learned to feel okay about it, but I still always have that sense of guilt.And it sounds just speaking to you that maybe you don't have that so much anymore.And I'm just interested, is that true?And if yes, how do you do that?
Yeah, so you're right.I don't often feel guilt.And when I do, I look at it as, I guess I can answer this in a couple of ways.One is I think there's guilt that is real.
And that is our conscience, our intuition, trying to get our attention and speaking to us that we're doing something that's in violation of our values.I think that's productive guilt.
I think that's in our spirits and our souls and our sort of being as human beings.And I think that's really productive that sometimes we can get out in front of ourselves and make choices that aren't really serving who we want to become.
And that's a values violation. I think there's times when we feel guilt because we think we're supposed to or that we don't know what else to feel.And so we say, I must not necessarily be doing it right.And so I'm going to slip into this guilt mode.
And I had to work through this a lot because I, you know, like you, I just wanted to be great at all the things.And what I started to understand is I think if we're not in guilt, where can we be?
And I'm like, well, a balanced life to me is one where I am living in total alignment with my values, which is who I want to be, and my priorities, which is the good that I want to do in the world.
And what I found is that when I pursue my priorities at the expense of my values, that's when I feel guilty.
So for instance, you needing to record this podcast today means your kids can't sit on your lap, means that you can't spoon feed, cut somebody's food up, means that you can't go to the park right this moment, you can't put them in
Those are things you cannot do right this moment because you're choosing to record this podcast.
And this podcast is aligned with things that you want to happen in the world, things that you want to happen financially for your family, people you want to help.That is an important thing.
And I started to say to myself, I am a whole person with or without my kids.And I love my kids, and they are very important to me.And we do lots of things for our kids.But I need to stay whole in every season of my life.
As you know, you have a partner.If you are in a relationship and you are whole, that other person has a much easier time being in a relationship with you because they're not being asked to fix a bunch of stuff.
When we're in these intense parenting years, if I can be whole, then I do not accidentally create this codependent relationship with my kids.
When I still have purpose outside of whether they're, you know, doing great in school or they're not, then I can still have energy and capacity to be present for them.
And so what I have learned is that like, yeah, this morning I got in my car, I drove to work and I'm away from them.There will be some Places, I won't be able to drive them.They won't be able to go to the pool this afternoon.
There's things that won't be able to happen and that's okay because I Have defined for myself We have boundaries in place in our family things like my husband and I will both not travel overnight.I during the school year, during the week.
It's too hard on them.It's just too hard.And so no matter how fancy the opportunity, no matter where it's at, no matter how big it might be for one of us individually, we'll negotiate that.But that's just a value choice that we've made.
And I'm not going to pursue my priorities in a way that will violate that.When I do that, I feel very guilty because it sends the household into a spiral.It doesn't work very well.
And so I think when I look at a choice I've made and I ask myself, well, does it align with my values and does it align with my priorities?And one of my priorities right now is my second daughter really cares a lot about volleyball.
It takes a lot of our resources to help her pursue this goal that she has of playing in college.And so I have to organize my time in a way that supports that priority for her too.And so it's not just my things that get done. Interesting.
I really like this idea of give and take.I'm interested in the way that you come across.It sounds like you've got it together.
You even chose to have four kids, which is... I know many people aren't lucky enough to have that opportunity, but a lot of people would describe you, I'm sure, as a superhero for commanding such a stellar career with that many children.
And I was wondering whether you could share with our listeners what some of the tougher moments were, the moments that really taught you stuff about combining children with a career?Because you said before coming on, it's not always wonderful.
You know, I have learned, give a little backdrop, like my confidence and clarity is I have learned to own my choices.This is what I've picked.And so we are going to work to make the very best of it.
And had I chosen to stay home with the kids, it was an option, and we could have done that as a family.There would have been things that would have been hard in that world, too.There's guilt in that world, too.There's sacrifice in that world, too.
And so I just decided probably seven years ago I'm going to just pick it, and I'm going to love it, and we're going to do our dang best, and we're going to let it be enough.That's where I'm going to decide.
When I talk about the seasons that were really hard, you know, I talked just a moment ago about my husband and I both being away, and that being a choice that we have made for our family.
There were some seasons of us both being gone a lot that stretched our family to a place that was unsustainable.
And I had to admit, no matter how much money that brought us, no matter how much importance that brought my husband and I's career, we were sacrificing things that were really irreplaceable.Our marriage was pushed really far.
We got really distant from one another. You know, we were both going to where we were getting accolades and people were excited to see us, which was not at home.
It was in our work and in the boards we were serving on and the other organizations that we were part of.And so, you know, naturally you just start to, your whole life just moves to being logistics and kind of pleasantries.
And our relationship really lost any sense of fun, adventure and curiosity and prioritization.It was just like existing.I'm like, we both deserve better than this.And so we had to work to really define together what are our priorities?
Like what is every dollar worth saying yes to?Or is there a place in our family where we're going to pump the brakes and say, doesn't matter.We have to protect who we are as a family.
We have to protect our relationship because nobody's going to do that for us.
In every season, I ask each of my girls, and obviously our three-year-old, I have to intuit more of this than I do with the other three, what are 15, 12, and almost nine, is I ask them in every season, what are your priorities right now?
So that I can be a steward of those and they ask me the same thing so that they can be a steward of those.And I think that that has helped us as a family.
You know, when your kids are young, I would like go, I try to do like every parent volunteer opportunity, every field trip, every, you know, every time the classroom, every like read a book and like all this, I've tried to be at all of it.
And I was like killing myself. trying to be there for 100% of it.And my husband had such a great insight.He's like, why don't you ask each one of them what is most important to them?And I got very different answers from that.
My oldest never cared that I was on field trips.She didn't care.It was not important to her.She wanted me to come and have lunch with her.Like, you know, once a quarter or once a month or whatever it was.So it's like, okay.
And so I got in the habit of asking my kids, what is important to you?When do you feel good that I'm there?And when did you, when do you just not care?
Not because I don't want there to be a hundred percent of it, but I want to be there on the things that are important to you.And so we have, I think, created the habit of really good vocabulary around that.And
Even with my older kids, if we're driving carpool to a new facility or team, I will ask them, like, would you feel more confident if I took you because you haven't been to this building before?
Or would you rather show up with your friends because you feel more confident walking in with them?And just asking them, not putting on myself that I have to be at everything, but understanding for each kid in each season
What matters to you so that then I can prioritize accordingly and not try to hold myself accountable for having to be at?
Everything I'm using air quotes because that's I think when we put that as the standard That's when we start to feel all this guilt and like we're letting everybody down, but nobody expects that necessarily unless your kid says I don't feel confident taking the court unless you are in the stands mom and
Say, okay, let's talk about how we can make that happen.Is it that you want me there or is it that you want somebody who loves you in the stands?Would it be okay if your grandma was there sometimes?Would it be okay if our best friend was there?
Like, does it need to be me?Let's talk through this.Not because I don't want to, honey, but because I want to understand.I want you to feel confident when you take the court.
I want you to know that there's somebody in the audience that loves you with everything they are.
I want you to feel prepared for your moment of performance, but I also want to understand the boundaries of this so that I can set it up in a way that is sustainable for everything we're trying to do in our household.
And they might say, like, I feel good if a grandma's there or a grandparent is there.It's like, okay, so there might be three games in a 15-game season that I can't make because I have another commitment, because I need to be at a board meeting.
And so then we already have an agreement, hey, these three games, grandma's going to be in the stands. And it's going to be awesome and, you know, she'll probably take her for ice cream afterwards and it'll be even more fun if I wasn't there.
But that is a way that I think my kids don't feel surprised.I can feel like I am fulfilling what they need from me and I don't need to feel guilty for not being there because we all… kind of created the parameters together.Does that make sense?
It really does, and I'm so going to implement this.I wasn't expecting to come to a podcast where I'm getting lots of parenting advice, but that is exactly what was happening.I really think that is the thing.
We always talk about how employers shouldn't assume things of working parents, as in what they want, because some people do still want to travel the world and progress their careers, and they should stop making assumptions about what a working mom or dad wants.
And I think the same is true with our children, really.So that's a very, very powerful realization for me.Thank you.
A number of our listeners have been in touch with me over the years to say that they had children before they progressed their careers and they feel somewhat stuck and would like support to move their career forward alongside having balance, but they're disappointed that they can't join the Leaders Plus Fellowship because they don't have management responsibility yet.
And to address this conundrum, I'm really thrilled to let you know that we have now launched the Future Leaders Plus experience to address exactly this, to help individuals who don't have yet management responsibility, but want their careers to get unstuck, progress, but do so in a way that they can still be present with their families.
All the details are on leadersplus.org forward slash future leaders plus.The application deadline for that one is 26 November.
If you are in a leadership position and know of someone who perhaps had kids young and didn't progress but deserves to develop their career, let them know.I am interested about the four children question.
I have three so far and probably going to stay three.And that even three in the area where I live, Southeast London, is quite unusual.I don't know many other families with three.
So some families have one by choice or by nature, and some feel strongly that they want to have two children, but then most stop at three.I found that the jump from two to three was actually as challenging personally as going from one to two.
And I'm just interested in what routines have you put in place, if any, to manage four children and really big jobs, multiple big jobs at the same time?
So one of the things is that I'm very organized and I'm very comfortable asking for help.And I don't know the environment so much in London, but things like I don't do my laundry
And people think, oh, that's reserved for people who like live in palaces and have butlers, and it's like really not.
It's really pretty inexpensive to send your laundry out to a laundromat or there's a lot of different apps in America at least where like people will come kind of like food delivery, it's like laundry delivery, they come and pick it up.
And so I have created a lot of margin.As my husband and I have earned more money over the years, we have not so much amassed a bunch of stuff.
We don't have a vacation house, we don't have a boat, we don't have a lot of extra stuff, but we have taken a percentage of that and really funneled it into getting help so that we can continue to invest in our jobs and our people and have a really big family.
The other thing I will say that we've done, this is like a really simple routine that has helped kind of the clutter and chaos of the day when I'm making this really tactical and then we can talk more conceptual about having a big family.
But there's this thing I do called the morning wind up and evening wind down.
And if you think about walking the streets of London and it's in the middle of the night and you walk by the front of a restaurant, the restaurant has no signs of yesterday's service, right?There's not dirty plates on the tables.
There's not pots still on the, you know, it's like it's ready for the next day service, the next day's customer, and there's no evidence of today's service. So I tell my family, I don't want to see yesterday when I wake up in the morning.
And I kind of use that restaurant analogy of like, they're ready for all of the patrons that are going to come in the front door, all the food that is going to be made, all the business, all the celebrations, all the anniversaries, all the craziness.
And there's this peaceful, ready canvas for all of that energy to be able to take place on.And so I kind of run my household that same way, where in the evening we do this wind down
where literally it's getting the house kind of deescalated and put away for the next morning's activities.And so it's wiping down the counters, running the dishwasher, taking out the trash.
wiping down the cabinet fronts, you know, if something got spilled, sweeping the floor.And then we do a 10 minute, what I call pick and put.I set the timer and everybody picks something up and puts it away.
And if six of us do that for 10 minutes, that is an hour of pickup, an hour a day that we never even get to 10 minutes.You know, it's four or five minutes, everybody putting away a backpack, put away a toy, snap some Legos together.
And so by the time we go to bed, the whole routine takes maybe 15 minutes.Whoever's in kind of our central living area will help me do it.Again, kind of another teamwork aspect of our day.And we put the house down.
And that way, when we get up in the morning, we're ready for lunches to be packed, backpacks, all that kind of stuff.
And then in the morning, I have a list of things that, again, we kind of do very routinely, whether we're in the summer or we're in the school year.
So that cadence helps the most normal things and me not be like, oh my word, we haven't picked up for six days.Now it's gonna be this huge project and I'm starting to feel really frustrated because the space is really cluttery.
And so I have those little habits have helped us just keep, I feel like, good hygiene in our space and environment so that we have the most amount of energy for the stuff we wanna do, the extraordinary parts of our life.
And it's like, you know, just like working out sometimes is kind of annoying, but you feel better when you do it.It's the same thing with some of these simple routines.Some days I'm like, oh, I just like really don't have the energy for this.
But when I do it consistently, it makes living in our house a really light load. for any one of us so that we can kind of keep up.And we get our house cleaned.That's something that I outsourced kind of a few years ago as well.
But you could do the same thing with cleaning, where it's like you break it up into pieces and it just happens in a more routine way.
It depends, I guess, what type of person you are.But the more stuff in my life that I have systemized, the better.And it's amazing. My three-year-old actually really loves the Tidy Up song.I know all the Tidy Ups, and Tidy Up Roomba is my favorite.
And they actually did do it. strangely.They can do it at nursery, so clearly they can do it at home once.Sorry, this is not usually such a parenting forecast, but hopefully our listeners are enjoying the insight into our lives.
I'm going to ask you about the career progression element, because you built and grew companies really fast.I'm interested in
what you learned about, I guess, what key behaviors helped you to get to the growth, and especially key behaviors that you can't read up in a management book or by going on an MBA.
I guess what I'm trying to do here is I want this podcast to be the old boys club equivalent for people who want to progress their careers.
So is there anything that you've done that you think not enough people do that really helped you to get that growth in your career? Yes, it's a great question.
There's three things that come to mind.
One is, and I know most of your people listening are senior leaders, but I think one of the things that allowed me to have a lot of courage as an entrepreneur and someone who owned my own business was that I knew how to sell.
And I think everybody should know how to sell, whether you are actually going to ever sit in a full-time business development sales role or not.You're going to need to sell your idea.You're going to need to sell your company to potential investors.
And the confidence I had to take some risks because I knew I could go create more revenue if I had to.
I think allowed us to get back up a couple times when we had maybe delivered in a way that we weren't quite ready for yet, and our product wasn't quite ready for the market, and you've churned some clients.
You don't want that to happen, but being able to sell I think gave us more lives as a business to be able to figure some things out, really get an understanding of our market fit And I think it allowed me to have more courage with talent.
I was never beholden to like one customer or one salesperson that kind of owned me because I knew I could sell.So that would be very tactical. I'm sure other people on your podcast have talked about just the value of your relationships.
I have gotten, I think, a good habit of putting myself into networks and places where I don't know anyone, and I think it has allowed me to grow and our business to grow because I just have developed the muscle of knowing how to be the strange one.
You know, and being the one who, I wasn't born in the city.I, you know, I don't golf.I don't belong to the country club.My kids are not in the private schools, like they're public school kids.And so just figuring out how
to put yourself into the places where things are happening and that if you're not getting invited, which, you know, you ultimately get to the place where you're getting invited, but just like, how do you get yourself to the table?
And I joined a lot of different groups that I think taught me how to just create relationships.And, you know, the best way to get connected is to start with a help first mindset. ask people, what is the biggest thing that you are solving right now?
And is there anybody in my world, anything I know, anything I've learned that can help you?And that was kind of my way that I would norm into these organizations is like, how can I help you?
And then I would learn and I would understand their problems and I would learn how to connect people.And then before long, they would ask me, how could they help me?
And I would always have a problem in my pocket of like, this is the biggest thing that I'm trying to solve right now.And I think our egos can keep us sometimes from saying, the real hard thing you're trying to work on.
It's hard to say out loud, I think one of my largest clients is at risk right now and that would mean that I would need to lay some people off and I've never done that before.
Obviously, you don't want to televise that at a big networking meeting, but you start to learn who your trusted confidants are and really sharing those scary moments as a young entrepreneur. I think allowed me to grow faster than my age.
I want to hone in on that point about getting into spaces that you wouldn't naturally be automatically invited to.Can you share an example, perhaps, of a space that you did manage to get into and what you practically did?
Because what you're describing, I'm sure, is the worst nightmare of many of our more introvert listeners. So are you familiar with YPO?
No.It's called Young Presidents Organization.It's an international organization.And I think that's a place where our chapter in Indiana, there's about 110 members.And when I joined, there was only two other women.
And I was like 37 or something like that when I joined.So I was still pretty young.I don't know.I'm 44 now, but you know, I wasn't like, I felt pretty young.
And there were events I would go to where the only other women in the room were people who were like serving us, you know, because not everybody went to everything.
And so that was a circle where I had a client that felt like I could learn from being in that room, and he kind of let me know about it.But he didn't really go to stuff.He was just like, I think you could learn a lot here.
And I would say that was an organization where it took probably a year of renewed courage every time I went to something to be like, I am here to help other people.This is not about me.
If I take the attention off of myself and how I feel like I stand out and I don't fit, then that's how I'm going to act is like that I don't fit, that I stand out.But if I'm here to like
be generous, to learn people's stories and how I can help them, then that's how I'll show up is I'll show up in a way that is generous and helpful and I think be more authentically myself.
So that's a group where I ultimately got on the board and I created a lot of more, you know, when you work beside somebody, you start to get to know them better.
And that would be my biggest tip is if you're joining a group that you don't know anybody, See if there's a committee that you can serve on or an event that you can work the registration desk or like, you know, something silly.
But it gets you into a place where you have a shared experience no matter how simple with someone, which creates one familiar face the next time that you show up, you know, like, and that starts to grow.
And so I have just really learned if I'm trying to get into an organization, serve first. Volunteer.Work a thing.Give your time.See how you can be helpful.Donate $500.Like, you know what I mean?Like, whatever.
And if you serve first, then you will really learn the character of the group.And you'll start to, I think, in a year, 18 months, decide, is this something I want to really be a part of and keep leaning into?
Or do I want to go find a different organization that I think can kind of serve where I'm going better?So with YPO, I ended up getting on the board.
And then I ended up being in leadership, and it's been one of the most defining experiences of my career.But it was very scary at the beginning.
Now those people are all my friends, and it feels very normal, and I text them all the time, but it did not start that way.I did not know anybody. And I was really intimidated.And I was the only one that could tell me that I belonged in that room.
And I think if there are people listening, if you're intimidated, you are the only one that can tell you that you deserve to be in that room.
Thank you so much for sharing that.So honestly, just on a practical perspective, how did you make the time?Because that is extra investment, and I agree with all the things that you recommend.
And I really believe it's the right thing to do exactly what you did.I'm just aware that quite a lot of our listeners will already feel up against it.They might not with their workload and children.
And obviously those things, those committees are often in the evenings.Do you have any reflections about making that time and balancing where you say, yes, I'm going to invest and where you say, well, actually no, I'm saying no to this opportunity?
Well, there are seasons where I would only say yes to board meetings and things that fell in the workday.And so if it was at night, I would say I'm in a season right now where I do very little in the evenings because our kids are so involved.
When our kids were really little,
I did much more in the evenings because in home care, we had a nanny who came to our house, and so we would put our kids to bed really late, like 10 or 10.30, which sounds like child abuse, but it worked for us to be able to see them in the evenings because if I got home at 8 o'clock and they were going to bed at 7.30, I would never see them.
So what we did when our kids were young was I would leave the house early.I would not see them in the morning.That way there wasn't this tug of war of like mommy's leaving and this like kind of whole drama thing.
Even though I was confident in my choice, my mom heart just hated that. No matter how great your care is, it's just hard.So I would leave early, and a lot of times probably get two or three hours of work in before they even got up.
And so I didn't feel like I was missing anything.And then we would get home between 530 and 8 o'clock, kind of depending on what was going on that evening, and we would still have a lot of time with them.
So we shifted our family schedule and our kids' schedules to fit what worked for my husband and I. I think it's easier when they're young to do that.Now, you know, they have kids to get up for school and there's different things.
So we're much more, I'm much more protective of my evenings.
And there's times where, you know, finding things that meet, board meetings that meet during the day or committee meetings that are over lunch or just saying, Hey, I'd love to serve here, but can we change the access point so that I can be more involved?
Obviously you have more pull over that as it goes on. But I would do things like I would schedule one-to-one sometimes to be like with my people to be phone calls so that like my drive to where I was going, I was using that well.
And then I would like use my drive time back to where I was going.If it was 20 or 30 minutes, I would get, I was just really surgical in the way that my time was used so that it didn't make everything just get bigger.
Thank you so much for sharing. And I want to pick up on that sales and business development element, because that's a brilliant skill to have, and it sounds like you were a natural.
Is there something for people who are not a natural, but who will, if they're a CEO, will need to convince funders or investors eventually?Where would you start to become a brilliant salesperson?
I would say I have a lot of natural inclinations to it, Verena.I would agree with that.I'm outgoing.I like to talk.I'm bubbly.All those kinds of things are like stereotypically appended to salespeople.But I did not know how to strategically sell.
So I spent three years learning.I used the Sandler selling methodology is what I learned.There's a lot of good ones. And I would start by literally finding a podcast or finding a book or finding a cohort of salespeople.
They're very generous because they know the world goes round on relationships.And so find an amazing salesperson in your organization or your competitor.
in your church or your gym that you know just like that's how they make money is off of commission and off of selling things.
And ask them, meet with you every single month and teach you some stuff or who is a coach that they've used or what program did they learn from that maybe their company has purchased. And it is not that expensive, actually, to learn how to sell.
There are a lot of digital courses.There's a lot of free materials.The Sandler selling model, that's what I used.I hired a coach that I worked with, and that's what he taught me.
But if you're trying to convince your employer to do it, I would give yourself a quota.I would say, if you pay $3,000 for me to go through this, I will create this kind of value for the business.
Is it working with a sales rep and going out in the field with them for a couple?I don't know.I'm kind of making it up.But the value equation when you're talking about how to sell something, is pretty easy usually to figure out how you can do that.
Is it like if you're on the product team, is it that you'll start adding sales literature or pain bullet points to the way that the engineering team sends it to sales and marketing?
Maybe that doesn't mean you're selling something, but it does mean, hey, I can bring this mindset into what I'm doing.
If you're in leadership and you're wanting to learn selling, and that's a strategic part of you becoming more well-rounded, maybe you do spend a day a week in the field.
And you do take on a couple of customers because it's, for 18 months or 24 months, something that you want to learn.And the enterprise and you are going to be more valuable if you do that.So obviously that can't all be additive.
You need to strategically work towards that.But it is a very unsexy skill to say, like, learn how to sell.Like, knowing how to do AI prompts is a very sexy skill to talk about these days.Sales is a very old-fashioned idea.
But it is still, I think, the most important thing to know how to do.
I really agree.Thank you for demystifying that for us.We're coming towards the end of our podcast.If people want to connect with you, find out more about you, learn from you, where should they go?
Yeah, Instagram is a great place to kind of see inside of my world.I teach people, Verena, how to live a life of and.And so you talk about, you know, I'm a mom to a big family, and I'm a wife, and I'm an entrepreneur, and I'm a podcast host.
I have all these things I want to do.
You know, I live in a world of like hacks and tips and systems and how do I create processes for the most ordinary things in my life, laundry and food and logistics and cleaning, so that I have the most space for the extraordinary things that life has to offer.
So that is what I care about teaching today.I have a digital course called the Life of Anne Academy that teaches families how to do just that, kind of lifted the system out of our household and share it with other people.
But if you want to find me on Instagram, Tiffany Sauder, S-A-U-D-E-R, I'm sure we'll put links in show notes.
It's kind of a hub for a view into my own life of and and to get a read into some of the podcasts that are going live on my podcast called Scared Confident.
Wonderful.And if people listening would like to try one practical thing from your Instagram, what could it try out this week that takes less than five minutes?
I would start with the evening wind down and the morning wind up.I have a PDF that I can share that will kind of walk people how to do that themselves.
I would encourage you, get your family around your table and say, how do we take the five easiest things in our family, in our household, and make those something that we decide to do every single night?Take five minutes.
Each of us take one thing and start beginning to build that system of The counters being clean, the dishwasher being empty, and the trash being empty when you start the day.I think it's like such a life-giving practice.Sounds amazing.
My house will be much tidier and cleaner, I'm sure, by the end of this.It's been great to have you on the podcast, Tiffany.Thanks for having me, Brina. I really appreciate you listening.Thank you so much.And I always love to hear from our listeners.
If you want to connect with me on LinkedIn, just go to Ferina Hefti and I'd be delighted to hear your feedback and your suggestions. or just have you say hi.
Likewise, if you do feel passionately about gender equality and you want to support a female-led podcast, then please do leave a review and share it with a friend.
Just because, at the moment, podcasting is still a very, very male-dominated environment in most of the top-charging podcasts. led by men.
I really love all the people who've joined from the podcast our fellowship program and if you want to do the same then please head over to leadersplus.org forward slash fellowship in order to get access to a community of support to help you combine an ambitious career with young children together with people who have your back.
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