Welcome to the Reboot Chronicles, connecting you to the world's top leaders and CEOs rebooting their organizations and themselves with revealing stories to help you prosper in unprecedented times.
I'm your host, Dean Tobias, and as a serial CEO who's led dozens of companies that created thousands of jobs and billions in revenue, my passion is uncovering powerful lessons that can inspire you to reboot your organization, your career, and your life.
Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts or at rebootchronicles.com. If you think you've got a plan, it's time to reboot it.Here to unpack it all with me on The Reboot Chronicles is Liz Ryan.
Like me, she's a former Fortune 500 C-Sweeter and thought leader, writing thousands of articles for Forbes, Bloomberg, Kiplinger, and Yahoo.
And a CEO of Human Workplace, a three million member group, she is focused on helping people like many of us navigate today's messed up job markets.Liz, good to see you.
Hey, thanks, Dean.Glad to be here.
What's the biggest threat to job seekers today?Those that are out there trying to find something.
That's a really good question.I would say that it's two pronged.One is that the recruiting process, Dean, has been, as you know, degrading over the years.
I haven't been a sitting HR chief for a minute, and it was a kind of a reasonable process pretty fast when I left, not just in our firm, but most of them.Now it's a disaster.So you have to have the,
girded loins to get through a very dysfunctional process and the mindset that not all these companies even deserve you, but only a few, and you've got to find those.
Then the other piece of that in the broken recruiting process is the way that job candidates have been taught to get a job, which is also got awful.
The process, how we write a resume, what a resume looks like, how we write a LinkedIn profile, how we use LinkedIn, pretty much how to interview.Every single day I see horrible advice online about how to interview how to think about your job.
It's very disempowering.And that's actually the reason I started writing career advice 25 years ago.It's because I wanted to tell people, you know, a more empowering and more honest and more accurate view of actually what it takes to get a job.
You know, it's like they're working from a rule book, what do people call it?A playbook from the 80s.You're right.I mean, I get very amazed every day, hundreds of them.And yeah, I don't know who's coaching these folks.
So we'll jump into that a little bit later, too.I want to talk about tools I could use.But what about the folks that are, a lot of people, when I read the open, it was, they're like, that's exactly where I am.
I'm either afraid of getting laid off, or I already have, especially a lot of the tech workers, which usually kept me happy. economy going.So what advice would you give someone who's going through a layoff right now?
Yeah.If someone's being laid off, you know what?It's the same advice for everybody, Dean.If you are not laid off, if you have been laid off, it's collect yourself.Hard to do when you're in a panic mode, of course.
If you job hunt out of panic, if you job hunt out of, I have to get a job immediately, you are not in your power and you're not gonna get a job that deserves you, honestly.
You have to get a little bit back if you have even a week that you can give yourself to say, I am significant.I have fantastic experience.I don't want just any job.I have choices.I have options.And remember,
How lucky your next employer will be to have you on board.It's going to change the whole shape and tenor and tone of your job search.And then you're going to zero in on what kind of job you want.So you're not just spraying out.
I can do this, this, this, this, this, this, and 40 things.Your majesty brand yourself like marketer for the job you want and then go forward.
Yeah, there is obviously, especially someone who's the breadwinner, there's obviously a panic situation.I think branding yourself is important.What are the most important things to do there?
I mean, what are some tips of how can someone mid-level kind of career rebrand themselves for what's coming?
You mentioned it, Dean.We're still stuck in this 1980s, 70s, 60s, 50s mindset of everything I've ever done, everything I'm capable of doing, it's going right on my resume and let them pick what they want, which version of me they want.
But that's not marketing. Every marketer has to have their target audience member in mind, and they have to address that person or that group of people directly, that ideal buyer.And it's exactly the same with job seekers.
You have to decide what job you want, not just brand yourself for every job you could perform.And when you do that and you have that clarity, your brand is a million times stronger.
I teach a resume approach that uses a human voice, conversational tone and stories.And people get to show, not just talk about, but show what they've already done and what they want to do next.
Stories are definitely helpful, the kind of pump and dump everything you've ever done on a, oh gosh, I'm even guilty of that, actually, if I look at some old resumes.As a receiver of the CVs, it's overwhelming.Sorry, how can I put this?
It's overwhelming, and most of it is irrelevant, and that which is irrelevant is aversive.We don't care, and we don't want to know about it.The classic example would be someone leaving the military who is, their
Their need, their assignment at that stage is to brand themselves for a civilian audience, assuming that's where they're headed.
But they're still pulling in all the jargon and all the terms from the military, which is to a civilian hiring manager, it's like next.And it's the same when you're changing industries, changing functions.
And even if you're staying in the same industry and function, what's not relevant is bad.Get it out of your resume.
Yeah, it's like brand yourself and speak their language and make it more of a targeted approach, which people don't like because it's more work for them.
It is more work, but it's it's it's a design project, just like designing a house or a Broadway show.All the work is up front.The other thing, Dean, for folks to do absolutely positively do this.
Go through your resume and your LinkedIn profile and take out the jargon.Results oriented professional proven track record of success.
motivated self-starter that is direct, it's garbage, it doesn't speak for you, and it sucks the power out of your resume and the life and the specificity.
You want to show on the page enough about your work in context that a hiring manager or recruiter can see you in their mind's eye doing your magic, bringing your brilliance, get rid of that kudzu, you know, sort of choking the life out of your brand and your story.
Those of you there in the South, kudzu's the weed.So you're absolutely right.If I had a dollar for every resume that says proven track record in, oh shoot, I'm talking about myself here.Yeah, you and I'd be rich, rich, rich.
I'm working on this new book, The Reboot, and it's about the revolutionary times ahead.It's not just about your wheelhouse, but how people can prepare themselves
kind of at the center of this hybrid corporate entrepreneurial gig, AI enthused in ecosystems.That's kind of where it's a part of it is going and love to get your thoughts on how, what should people do now?
That was the mechanics, but what should they do now to prepare themselves skillset wise?
No, you're right.You're right.You're right. It's mindset, Dean.I couldn't agree with you more.You know, my world, when I was a little girl, my dad had the same job from long before I was born when he graduated from college until he retired.
That was it.That was most of the dads I knew.Most of the moms didn't work back then.And, um, I never thought about my job, my dad changing jobs.Neither did he.It wasn't even a topic.
And when I started working in the 80s, he said, you know, I just got to tell you something, it's all changing.
I see the Harbingers, like it's changing in my company, in all the companies, it's no longer, here's this, my grandfather started the company, and now it's in the Fortune 500, and it's all wonderful, and our team, and you know, I'm watching my employees' children grow up, and it's all very lovely and beautiful.
I have a letter still that my father's boss sent my mother when I was born, and I'm the sixth kid in our family. And it said, dear Barb, congratulations on the birth of little Elizabeth and la, la, la, la, la, la.That's how it used to be.
It was like we were all part of this clan of this family went to their Christmas parties.Now it's financial, it's financial.
You and I are not part of that except in so far as we can add value in a very specific way so we all have to shift our mindset out of that cradle to grave era and see ourselves as CEOs of our own businesses which we are but it's hard to grab the reins now it's
what can i do at this job that will grow my confidence my contacts my credibility my resume fodder for the next job and i have to be focused on that next job as much as i'm focused on this job pleasing your manager is no longer the brass ring now it's getting stronger
getting stronger and growing your mindset to say i'm ready to leave i'm gonna stay ready to leave any job and actively interviewing every single year if i love my job if i hate my job i'm interviewing i'm keeping my network active and i have an entrepreneurial mindset if not a side business which i really recommend.
Yeah, well, maybe I'll include you in the book, because you're singing out of the same song sheet.You mentioned too many things there.So confidence, context, credibility, it's so important.
But the other thing you mentioned is the thing that anyone that reads my articles and listens to the podcast, we make a lot of fun of certain industries, because most of them have boiled it down to three companies.
It's an oligopoly, whether it's hotels or airlines or tech companies.And it's making what you just said propel itself even faster. Entrepreneurial economy aside, that's still percolating, but it doesn't, it pales in terms of the number of jobs.
Jobs are no longer the thing.A job is just a way to get paid.Whether you work for yourself or work for a company is a clerical detail.You cannot think of yourself as a person who needs to be employed.That is death.That will kill you.
You have to have an entrepreneurial mindset.That's why I recommend to people that
when they're settled when they have a little maslow management kind of thing i got i got some money coming and i got a list start your own business start a side business gonna grow your muscles like nothing can do inside the corporate or institutional world it's completely different.
Sense of self sense of identity. Ability to negotiate, ability to strategize, and ability to spot pain around you that you can solve, which is the key.Used to be I have these skills.Nobody cares about skills.What kind of problem can you solve for me?
Yeah, we call that the pains and gains of kellogg, which is a well-known model.But, you know, when I look at, or looked at positions back in the day, I looked at, you know, am I going to be happy here?Can I get a sense of purpose?
Is it something I'm passionate about?And, and usually the answer was no, not all the time.So I came up with this little formula, like, am I going to do this for fun, for money or for impact?
And what I found is if I could check off two of those on the next gig, that's enough because purpose and passion is really fleeting.
And there's a lot of people that are just completely unsatisfied in whatever they're doing, their career, but they're not worried about getting laid off.
They're just like, they're either just, you know, they're, they're not engaged or they're just braindead about the company and they just start. One book calls it bullshit jobs.
There's just a whole group of people out there that are, I don't know if they're fed up, but they're just numb to it all.
What advice would you give leaders about re-engaging their audience, especially in the multi-national companies that are so large?
Well, the first thing I would say is that person who's in that job and they're numb, they're hurting themselves.That is not a win.Staying in a job where your brain is not engaged and you are not plugged into your power source is terrible for you.
It's terrible for you.It's going to hurt you. In every single way, emotionally, physically, and commercially, financially, the next time you have to be energized, it's gonna be a little elusive.That is not a win.Used to be coasting was a thing.
I'll just coast, coasting.
Yeah, that wasn't such a dirty word, you're right.
But for CEOs, I love to talk to CEOs who want to engage with their teams and make the workplace more vibrant, more human.I mean, the name of my company is Human Workplace Consulting and Coaching Firm.
And of course, this is where all the good stuff is, all the innovation, all the collaboration comes when there is that fizz and that voltage running through the place.But the reason that voltage dies, disappears is because
CEOs and other leaders can be hard to hear this, but they go into fear.They go into fear and say, you know what?It's all about the bottom line.
And no employee ever got excited about your bottom line or your financial security for your family or even the viability of the firm.That is a fear thing.You can get somebody to care in the short term,
But in the long term, they're going to do the prudent and correct thing, which is look out for themselves and leave you.
And before they leave you physically and quit, they're going to leave you emotionally and mentally, and they're going to check out.And so when there's low engagement, it means that people are looking beyond you.
You've become a runway to their actual destination.You have to work hard if you want to get them back.
That was proven out in The Great Resignation, which was many ridiculous things happened over the last four or five years. Let's just dig in on the oligopoly comment, which is it doesn't matter who it is.We can pick on AWS, dozens of companies.
I've talked to the CEOs.On some days, I agree with them about this back-to-the-office stuff.And on other days, I'm like, well, you need to be a situational leader and not ruin your workforce.So what advice are you giving these big dogs now?
There's two ways to do anything.There's two ways to play golf.There's two ways to make an omelet.There's two ways to go to work.There's two ways to run a company.One is driven by trust and hope in the future and belief in yourself.
And the other one is through fear.Sometime in the distant past, I assume before they built the pyramids in Egypt, somebody figured out that fear is a powerful motivator.
in the short term if you can enforce it you can keep people afraid you can make them do things.
Grudging compliance but it's the thing you need done still happens way too many organizations are run almost completely by fear and we see that with you mentioned AWS unit. of Amazon ordering people back to the office five days a week.
Even folks who were working from home for years before COVID.It's just pure fear.It says, I mean, a lot of it is financial.It's incentives that they won't get from their state or city government if they don't have people physically working.
But basically it's very cynical move, not to mention unethical. Because it says, I don't care about your life.I don't care about the carbon footprint.
I don't care about the fact that workplace violence only happens at work, doesn't happen in your living room.I don't care about any of it.I don't care about your needs, your situation, children coming in from school three in the afternoon and
giving you a hug and then going in their room to do their homework.I don't care about any of that.
And this bullshit thing, Dean, that we're going to get more collaboration and more culture when people are in the office, forcibly, forcibly in the office.
Or innovation, I think is the word too.
You're going to get innovation from people who are adults and who know where their voltage is and it isn't with you.
And you force them and you think, oh, at the water tap, a water cooler will have organic, nothing is organic in fear and pain, then it's prison.
They don't have water coolers.There's no more water coolers either.It's very transactional.You're right.
It's insulting.You hire smart people and then you don't literally even treat them like adults.That makes Jack Welsh look like a reasonable guy.That's just nonsense.That's just nonsense.
Let's switch over to my favorite topic, social media.So I help a lot of our producers and Kellogg students kind of jack up their LinkedIn profile to better position them and get out of the jargon nonsense you're talking about.
What are some tips that you would give people in this strange economy?
Because you hear the headlines are like, all these jobs are unfilled, but most people I know are having a hard time because there's literally millions of people on LinkedIn looking for gigs.I don't want to bash LinkedIn too much here, but it's,
It's kind of trying to be a one-stop shop, and I don't think it's being very effective.But how do they, more importantly, how do the listeners bust through that?And maybe- That's it.
You said it.Bust through.Bust through the noise.Bust through the fog. Decide, decide, decide, choose.Have the courage to say, I'm not going to try to do everything that I could conceivably do.
I liken it to pushing a cart, a wheelbarrow down the street that says, I have pears and plums and pomegranates and apples.Anybody want any of this stuff?It's the worst way to job hunt.You have to decide.
You've got to have a point on the arrow and it's got to be sharp.And it says, I am a digital marketer who specializes in making small
natural food products companies bigger and getting to national prominence you have to be specific if you need to change course you'll change course but most of the resumes and the linkedin profiles that i see are fear-based.
They're coming out of, I don't know if anybody will hire me, so I'm casting as wide a net as possible.And that's the opposite of branding.It's the opposite of marketing.It just doesn't work.
So there's a piece of this, which there are millions of jobs unfilled, but there's a piece of this, which is the brokenness of the recruiting system.
And then there's a piece, which is the brokenness of the job search process, as most people have understood it and the way that it's still being taught today.But it is mindset.It's like dating, Dean.
You don't go on a first date with someone you don't know to try to please them.You never even met them yet.You go to learn more, and you have to take the same approach, consulting approach, to every interview.I don't care if you like me or not.
I care if I like you.I care if this assignment is meaty enough to even attract me.
That is so far from what happens on an interview.That's just the opposite.You're right.
People go hat in hand, unfortunately, but we've been trained to be Hermione Granger, to be please your majesty.I mean, I've hired 10,000 people with my teammates back in Chicago.
The first 10 minutes is trying to get somebody out of that state they were trained into to just be there like, Like it's an oral exam and they can get a passing grade at the end.It doesn't work that way.
Have to get past that and talk about the real stuff.Now, of course, I don't blame the candidates.The recruiting process is beyond broken.I just put a post on Facebook last night.What's the goofiest interview question you've ever been asked?
That thread will never end.It's just ridiculous.I've got some zingers for you.
I can't repeat one of them. So do we still need a CV?I tell most of my people I'm mentoring, like, just make your LinkedIn profile great because people are lazy and that's all they're looking at.And I know it's bad advice, but.
Do people really need it?If it's a contact that's recommending you, sure, LinkedIn is plenty.But if you're actually applying for jobs or you're working with recruiters, they're going to want the savings.
You need the doc.You need the doc, yeah.One page, five pages.I've had one recruiter tell me, hey, listen, you've got a lot of experience, a lot of CEO jobs.You need to put every one of them on there.And I'm like, that's four pages.He's like, yeah.
No, they don't know what they're talking about.I'm like, come on, four pages?No way.
No, the more senior you are, the fewer words you need.Think about Winston Churchill, right?He did everything.Statesman and Prime Minister, all this stuff.Here's his resume.I got Britain successfully through World War II.Boom.Mic drop.We're done.
The more you list, the less impressive you are.That is literally the case.It's not about more words.You create an archetype.You figure out what that archetype is.Where are you going?
Not where you've been, where you've been in forms, but where are you going?And then it's a very simple thing.You want to have them understand who you're coming to the party as.Are you Captain Jack Sparrow or SpongeBob SquarePants?
You know, Barbie, what's the archetype where you see yourself heading into your next job?More words can only hurt your resume.
Yeah, I like the Churchill reference.So you probably dropped the cigar, not the mic, but- There you go.Are too many people braggadocious as well?
Well, yes, and once again, no hate.They've been trained to be.
Some recruiters tell them to write that.No, that's exactly right.Pride in what you've done.I'm like, yeah, but you're showing off here.You had a team of 100 people.So using the word I, I don't know, is that really the right thing?
No, no, no.I is not bragging.It's your descriptor.You're going to use the word I. It's your principal branding document.I am an IT project manager who specializes in implementing, what, financial applications for trading firms, specific.
But I is your story.Yeah.I'm speaking to you like a human being.What you're not going to do is say, I am savvy, strategic, seasoned, insightful. Fearful people praise themselves, Dean.We knew this when we were 9, 10, 11 years old.
The kid on the playground who says, well, you know, my dad... That's a fearful kid. And so when we have, when we stand in our own feet and we know who we are, we don't brag.We never compare ourselves to anybody.We don't use praising adjectives.
We don't make our LinkedIn headline, former Apple, former Google.Oh, you think Google wants that?
What about the ex Google headlines?It's like, that's a badge of honor.
Or Harvard, in the headline, you think Harvard wants to graduate people for whom Harvard is the high point of their life?That's the last thing they want.
So we're getting rid of all that old bad advice that says brag, and praise yourself, and list all this stuff, and I'm a disruptor.What? No, I'm a guru.Sweetheart, if you are, let other people say that about you.
You're not going to say it about yourself.That's so cringe.That's a low power strategy.
I was going to call you a guru when you're opening, but I cut that.
You're allowed to.You're allowed to.I'm not.I'm not.
I can say it for me, because Inc.Magazine called me that.Here you go.It is a little embarrassing.Hey, listen.What was the biggest reboot of your life?What was the big challenge you had to overcome?What can people learn from that?
I know you've got stories.
Biggest challenge I had to overcome.I'm six out of eight kids, Irish Catholic family. The 100% of self-esteem, acknowledgement, everything was related to accomplishment.It was all related to accomplishment.
You accomplish something, then you have worth.If you don't accomplish something, and probably something new every week, then you really don't rate.
So I was programmed like it's accomplishment, accomplishment, get the best grades, get teacher's pet, National Honor Society, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it took me years to realize that accomplishment is the booby prize.
You just hit somebody else's yardsticks.Yay.You know, you did a great score on the GMAT or whatever.Yay.Like, so what?What do you want?I had to stop and say, I am on the wrong road here.I'm in the corporate world.
I mean, you got promoted, promoted, promoted.Yay. For who?That's lame.I'm still going to be dead in 50 years.What am I going to do with the time?How am I going to make my art?How am I going to help people?
How am I going to leave some mark on some people that might do the same thing themselves?That was the biggest shocker when I realized I am in the wrong, wrong headspace and I have to change it and hopefully help other people change it too.
That happened when my company was sold. And a company that I worked for, I love that job and I love my coworkers and my CEO has every right to say I'm done.So the company and I had to decide what to do next.
And I, I, I said, I can't, I can't do that again.That's, you know, I can't.
It's interesting, you just brought up, you triggered something in me.
There's people that are very competitive, so there's a competitiveness spirit, which is good in the outside, whatever, corporate world, actually in the marketplace, the more market-facing people.
But what really they suffer from, and I have in the past, is comparativeness, so comparing yourself to everything else.And that seems to, I mean, when I was listening to you, that seems to really impact people.
It's like, John is here, I am here, not necessarily in the same company, but just in life.Speak the truth, Dean.That must be holding people back.
You speak the truth.It starts in infancy.How soon did your baby start walking?Oh, he's a little slow.
I'm one of seven, so I get what you're saying.I get what you're up to.
Okay, we're kind of in the same zone.
Act like the middle child sometimes.
Yep, yep, middle to the edge.
I'm a Libra, I help everybody, all that nonsense.
Enough about me, it's like, I think a lot of people, that comparativeness, if that's a word, is very stifling for people and it's not helping them reboot and do what you just said, which is, you need to consider all these other jobs now, the world has changed, move on.
I've been stuck like that.That's how Reboot was started, quite frankly.It was more about a company, but now it's about yourself.
Rock on.COVID helped.COVID was obviously an unbelievable tragedy and it's still going on, but one way it kind of helped a lot of people is they said, what am I doing?Why am I trying to like, this job could go away.
And as you said, layoffs are rampant now.So why don't I please myself?And that requires me to stop and ask a really hard question.What do I want in this lifetime?What
Do i really want yeah should be great to have cooler phone cooler car but that it can't be it.What do i care about what do i want for myself these are deep questions and they type right into our careers.
So what would you give your twenty two year old self advice on now are people coming out of you know our our schools and colleges entering the workforce maybe they're working on their second gig maybe they join the wrong company in the first place and i did.
Yeah, what's the best advice we can give them at this point?
Yeah, I would say, sweetie, this is your Aunt Liz talking to you.You are going to hear a lot of nonsense.You're going to hear some wisdom.You're going to have some mentors.
You're going to have some anti-mentors, and you're going to grow your little flame.You have a flame inside you, and your job is to nurture it and grow it. and learn to trust your gut and that flame will grow.
People are gonna have lofty titles, VP, director, oh, you're so lucky they even glance in your direction.They're a normal human being like everyone else.If they speak what feels true to you and it's real, then follow them.
And if they don't, let them go.People will try to dim your flame.People will be intimidated by your flame.Even at age 22, it happens all the time. You have nobody to be intimidated by.No one has that much control over you.
If you don't like a job, you can leave.If you don't like a career path, you can change it.You are the director and star of your movie.Nobody gets to make the decisions but you.But that also means, my darling, you have to make the decisions.
Yeah, I love that.The maker of your own flame.By the way, what is an anti-mentor?
Anti-mentor is a person who takes you under their wing in order to dominate you and suck the juice out of you.
Anti-mentor is a person who is energetically upset, rattled by your obvious talent and tries to keep it and bottle it for themselves and work on your self-confidence and knock you down.And it happens unfortunately every day.
Yeah, that's kind of sad.Hey, one last thing before you go.I'm a big believer in performance reviews kind of suck.What do you tell companies to do now?
Oh, this is a very popular topic right now, Dean.That's a genius question. Um, and thank you again for having me on the podcast.Performance reviews are part of the old fear and control.It's very important once a year for us to tell you you're good.
You suck.You're halfway in between.It has nothing to do with business in, in a real business.And, and the purest form of that would be a startup of some kind.
Real business all they care about is the business that's it they don't care about hierarchy they don't care about titles they don't care about performance reviews they wouldn't dream of stopping the action the forward momentum to say well let's tell you how you did secondly in the world we never stop and look back and say let's look at the whole year and decide whether it was good battery
It's way too complex and multifaceted, and it doesn't help anyone.So I tell them junk the grading aspect of the performance review.Decide what to pay people based on what does that job pay in the outside world now.
And for some people, it's 2.5% more than it paid last year, just based on supply and demand.For some people, it's 10%, 12% more than it paid last year.That's reality, baby.And we have to live in that world.
then you plan, you strategize, you brainstorm, you come together and you find a melding of the minds and that's it.There is no grading, there are no excellent, that's ridiculous, that's Catholic school nonsense, we don't do that anymore.
I like it, kind of comes back to my, are you having fun, are you making money, are you making an impact?
That's it, what else, what are we gonna talk about?
Somebody ordered lunch, let's go.
Exactly.Appreciate it.You've been listening to Liz Ryan.Check her out.She's got a great following on LinkedIn, about 3 million LinkedIn users.I'm going to find out how to do that after we hang up here.This is Dean Tobias with the Reboot Chronicles.
I want to thank you for joining us and we'll see you soon.
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