Has the Dune Fan the ability to balance between opposing canonicities?
He could be a podcast host.
He was a podcast host in one incarnation, Miles.
Do you really want him scripting episodes so young?
It is necessary, Miles.Deadly necessary.
You almost passed out right between those two words, didn't you?
Taras is under a lot of stress right now.Okay.
Yeah.She just got out of a Ocean's One survival, you know, rescue mission. Welcome to Gamjabar, your guide to the iconic world of Dune.
We'll be exploring the themes, philosophies, and characters found in the sandy depths of this vast universe, from Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and TV.My name is Leo. And my name's Zaboo.
And we are still reading Heretics of Dune.Yep.Yep.Still working through it.Still working through it.Although today was a lot of fun.I really enjoyed these chapters.I do think every episode is fun, but these chapters in particular were a lot of fun.
Yeah.It was a nice change of pace.
Yeah. Well, before we get into today's reading, folks, we have to take care of some housekeeping.You know the drill.Beginning with our spoiler warning.
As always, today's episode will contain no spoilers beyond the pages and books we've covered thus far.So as long as you've kept up with the reading, you're good to go today.
Indeed. Now, of course, a huge shout out to our Kwisatz Haderach level patrons, Rob Silver, Daniel Dion, Roman Caballo, Jonathan Lambert, and C.R.Spruill.
Gentlemen, if you were on an Ixian no ship highliner something Above our planet we Abu and I absolutely would get on a ship Just the two of us to come up to save you from whoever's standing behind the curtain That's right waiting
We'd be prepared for violence for sure for you come fully armed and loaded.
Yeah fully armed all of our arms Not leaving any of them behind two of them to each Okay, that's four total two total would be bonkers What do you think both of us lose one
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Okay, housekeeping out of the way.Y'all know the drill for these book club episodes.We will begin with a summary of today's chapters.
And then, today, we're gonna be diving into a couple of very thick, I would say, spicy, thick, dummy thick, Spice Boys-size takeaways. And because the takeaways are so big, we didn't have enough time to put some morsels in the oven.
So we're skipping morsels today.It's OK.
Means more morsels for another episode.
That's right.That's right.OK, so let's take a quick break as always.But don't go anywhere, folks.When we come back, we're getting into today's reading.
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Welcome back, everybody.Hope you enjoyed your break.Let's talk about it.Let's get started with our chapter summaries, which kicks off with chapter 10.Now, in our first chapter today, we join a now 15-year-old Duncan Idaho in the Gammu Keep.
He's hanging by the forbidden window, chilling, breathing in that sweet Gammu air. And we're given some insight into his growing frustrations with yeah, I don't know his whole life so far everything.Yeah the whole all of it
Now, during his time here at the Keep, Duncan has grown increasingly resentful and hateful of Shuang Yu and the Bene Gesserit, always reminding himself that he is not one of them and that their schemes and their methods are not his.
This really jumped out at me, especially when Lucilla is pushing him to understand like, no, religion is a means of energy and controlling people through religion.This is how we get things done.
In his distaste, I see echoes of who Duncan has always been throughout all of Dune.He's the one who doesn't love the propagandists.He's the one that sees God Emperor Leto's rule and says, this is wrong, and I do not approve of this.
It's a very true to Duncan moment and reaction, even though this Duncan is not awoken yet.
Right.It's very on brand.
Now, we also learn here that Duncan's Gola nature is disturbing to him.He has these sort of like ghosts of memories, these impressions.He knows the names of trees based on their smells that aren't in the books in the libraries.
And it's like, how do you do that?How do you know that?Yeah, it's very Jason Bourne, you know?How do I know how to load a gun? Yeah, exactly.The feeling of not belonging in his body.This is like sense memories that aren't his.
It's an impossibility, but it's something he's dealing with in a moment-to-moment basis.It's really, yeah, reading about it, I'm like, oh yeah, thank God I'm not a Gola.Probably.Thank goodness.
And he even has, he describes this kind of moment staring at a blank wall where he almost visualized a woman that he's never known.And he kind of assumes, oh, maybe this is my original biological mother.Like, I'm not sure.
But he talks about being drawn to this person and thinking that perhaps she is his mother.Right.
She's special in some way.Yeah.And he certainly assumes that It's his biological mother.I will say I was skeptical at first.I didn't want to take his assumption at face value.Right.Considering how little Duncan knows about his own goal in nature.
Right.And I did a bit of cross referencing because I was like, OK, if that's not his mother. Maybe the other person this Duncan is having like dreamlike visions of is Alia, the woman that he loved and was married to in Children of Dune.
And so I went back and checked, but Alia in Messiah and Children of Dune is described as having an oval face with bronze hair.And this woman that he's visualizing is described with a round face.
Amber hair, so I don't think it's Alia and perhaps we can just take Duncan's Assumption at face value that it's his mother Yeah, this feels like the sort of detail that would be so juicy to like uncover through investigative Journalism right but it is tough because we're given so little I think you're right.
It's either.Yeah, this is his biological mother or we don't know or yeah, we don't know yet.
All of this is to say, this woman, this vision and the smell of the forest and these memories that are not his memories are deeply upsetting and disturbing to him.A lot of questions he doesn't have answers for.
In this chapter, we also learn for the first time about something called an Ixian probe.
And the drug shere, S-H-E-R-E. And Gyasa gives us a very helpful bit of exposition.Quote, an Ixian probe can raid the mind even of a dead person.Shear is a drug that protects you from the probe.End quote.Straight off of Frank Herbert's napkin.
He was like, I just, I came up with something.Let me write this down word for word.One of the few times Frank just explains how something works. And man, yeah, the Ixians are out here just not respecting anything, you know?Truly.
I mean, that feels like crossing a line.
Forcibly getting information from a corpse.
Seemingly feels like an intrusion of like the human condition in a way that feels so icky and so inappropriate.And yet the Ixians that are doing it.
Yeah, and they're always the ones to push the envelope, aren't they?I'll also say this very much changes the dynamic in this universe of plans within plans.
You used to not be able to just like blindly kill someone because you might need to get information from them in order to
you know, I don't know, find out where the house atomics are or find out where that next spice shipments going or whatever, right?
Like, oh, yeah, you had to be a little bit more restrained in your acts of political violence because you don't want to lose Intel or like valuable information in this like very information driven universe.
And between face dancers who can like mind read you even after like the moment of your death and the Ixians who can now do the same.
We have a universe where anyone can kind of be killed willy-nilly at any moment, even if they have like the secret launch codes, because there are now multiple ways to get that information out of their brain, even after they've been killed, which is really a rising of the stakes and should very much prime us to be prepared for anything.
Certainly.It changes the chessboard dramatically.
For sure. So this chapter, this first chapter, wraps up on a meeting between Xuanyu and Lucilla about Duncan, about the Gola.And in short, all of the pretenses dropped.These two women are clearly planting their flags.
Lucilla's not making a secret of it.She's like, I'm here to enact everything Terraza wants me to do.And Xuanyu's like, cool, because I've been fucking sabotaging the Ghola this whole time, which actually gives more
depth to this understanding of Duncan's disquiet and his hatred of the Bene Gesserit and his distrust of the Order.All of this is Shuang Yu's doing, allowing him to see their behaviors as supernatural.
And Lucilla's coming in going, who the fuck told him it's supernatural?I mean, we're social engineers.We're not witches.Like, what is it?What's happening?And Shuang Yu's like, oops, did I do that? Oops, I shouldn't have worn my black pointy head.
I've been boiling a lot of cauldrons, I guess oops, you know So fucking goofy, but it's interesting and in this conversation we do see that they are on opposite sides of this divide that's growing within the sisterhood and To be fair to shuang you although she is doing a lot of cauldron boiling She brings up a good point here
The Tleilaxu made this gola, and they updated his genetic information so that he reacts as quickly as people in this far future year, so that he's not an older model, as Muneo called him in God Emperor of Dune.
And yeah, why are we trusting fully that the Tleilaxu are on the level with everything, right? And although the Bene Gesserit, they've done all their testing that they can, and they've tried to make sure, there's always that possibility.
So Shuang Yu is being hesitant.And again, her hesitancy is built on a platform of, look at what happened to the Bene Gesserit when we got too grand with our plans.We flew too close to the sun.Our wax wings melted fucking twice.Exactly.
And here you are making some wax wings. Right.
As much as we rag on Xuanyu, her hesitation is warranted.
And is frankly, kind of the more reasonable way to go about treating Agola, given everything that has happened to the Bene Gesserit to this point.Yeah, man, why are we not more worried about this?And given the relationship we have with the Tleilaxu,
Why do we think any product they provide us is safe to use?All of those are very valid questions, and I do want to give Xuanyu credit where credit is due.Totally.People should be raising these questions.
Yeah.Now their meeting ends with two revelations, as we sort of talked about.One, Shuang Yu has been intentionally sabotaging Duncan's training.But Lucilla is like, listen, we're all good.I'm taking over.I'm teaching him everything.
We're not going to do the Spice Agony, but I'm teaching everything else. We're going to give him everything.And that's how he's going to be loyal to me.That's how he's going to love me, is because I'm going to deny him nothing.
And also, by the way, giving him more spice starting now.
And Shuang Yi was like, you bastard!
To your point, I'm sure for Shuang Yu, this is like to the T, the pattern of, okay, now we do more spice and then they're going to have a spice act and then it's going to be the whole fucking tyrant again.So that is where their meeting ends.
Yeah.Pretty blunt and straightforward with each other at this point.None of that subtlety that we saw in the first chapter of the book.All right.Moving on to chapter 11.
In our next chapter here, we return to Rackus and learn more about Shiana's time among the priesthood and their struggles in comprehending her holiness.I loved this chapter.This was so fun.
So there are a number of things about this holy child that have the priests absolutely stumped and genuinely angered.For example, she keeps calling the worm which we know is Shai-Halud.Shaitan!The devil!She's calling God the devil.Yeah.Love that.
Absolutely throws them for a loop.Yeah.She has also forced them to stop human sacrifices.Like, what the fuck?We can't just take peasants out to the desert and feed them to Shai-Halud anymore? That's rude.
And on top of that, she is just like constantly speaking heresy, and in particular speaking out against the priests.At one point in the chapter, Tamalain reports that priests have been murdered because of some things she has spoken out loud.
Like, the temperature on Rackus is definitely shifting.Even High Priest Tuic, who devoutly believes in Shianna, is beginning to waver.
And the folks around him, in particular, his closest advisors like Styros, are pretty openly beginning to question what this girl could mean in the context of their religion.Right.
And there's actually quite a bit more to say about that, the priesthood's reaction, Shianna's place in it as a false prophet, which we'll get to later in the takeaways.So put a pin in that idea for now, dear listener.
We're going to circle back to it later.For now, continuing with the chapter, Tamalain, who we learn is the commanding sister on Rakesh, is basically clued in about everything that's happening with Shianna and the priests.And she is having a ball.
She is loving this. It's the best reality TV you could watch.
Big old dune popcorn bucket just living.Only eating two kernels at a time because of that design.But like, you know, having a great time.
Having a great time.Yeah.And why Tamaline is having a great time is because all of this, everything she's watching go down, fits neatly into Benny Jezret plans.
And Shiana's presence and her actions have actually created a ripe atmosphere on Rackus for the Sisterhood to come in and start doing their tampering and for their plans to bear fruit.Yeah.
We get this really pointed quote here that basically lays that out. Quote the sisterhood artists in mythology Possessed on Rackus a ready-made energy to be subtly amplified and directed end quote It's so cool.
I mean, it's tag being out in the wings for ages and like the Bene Gesserit is no longer just like let's cultivate mythology.It's like they're just Setting up the raw materials so that at any time they can kick something into action Yes
I also loved the description of the sisterhood as artists of mythology.That's so cool.Such fun wordplay there.Now, as expected, Shiana one day goes to the priests and demands to be taken back out to where her former village used to be.
She goes there, she confronts the worms, and this soon becomes a pattern.She continuously demands to be taken out to the desert.She continuously
Faces off against the worms the worms never respond to her clearly, but she is working through her trauma out here you know she is working through the wild and unexpected path her life has taken and the loss that she has experienced and Clearly she blames shaitan the worm for a lot of this all of her questions of course and all of her visits are recorded in brilliant 4k HDR and
for everyone to watch and try and suss out, and it's truly causing havoc among the priesthood, to Tamalane's utter delight.Now, the other interesting note we get in this chapter is that Shiana's legend among the common folk is growing.
And it's growing so much that it's actually causing quite a seismic shift in the culture of Rakis.
Quote, Tamalane reported profound changes moving through Rackus as people everywhere on the planet began praying to Shiana instead of to Shaitan or even to Shai-Halud.End quote.
Nuts.That's a huge change.And it's easy to understand why the priesthood would see this happen among the common folk and be like, what the fuck is happening?Yeah.Red flags everywhere.
Now chapter 11 wraps up as a gleeful Tamalane reports back to the sisterhood.She's been reporting all throughout the chapter and her final report says that everything is going to plan.The ducks are in a row.
Dear sisters, when are you sending that gola?We're ready over here. and that's where the chapter ends.
I wanted to note that I loved, personally, loved the tone of this entire chapter, especially on a reread, because it's just absolutely hilarious how much Tamalane is enjoying all of this.
She's watching the priests twist themselves into knots over Shiana, bend over backwards, try and justify this and make sense of that.And she's sitting over here like, these fucking idiots.This is so fun to watch.
And I think on top of that, like the extra subtext here is that the Bene Gesserit are watching everything, everything, every single thing.
They're like Tuak blew his nose like four times yesterday.Like, cool.Yeah.Don't need to know that, but glad we do.
Right.And that's sort of like an unspoken part of this chapter.Tamaline is just getting reports on everything that's happening around Shiana and the priests.Right.
Not only does she have informants like the woman at the start of the chapter who like recites word for word using trance memory and interaction for her, she has informants seated among the priesthood, but she also clearly just has like
full-on, like, 4K footage that she can watch in her Apple Vision Pro at her leisure, and it's good enough that she can, like, zoom in on Tuik's face during a conversation and, like, read the subtleties on his face.
I kind of got a chuckle out of that part of it as well.Like, the Bene Gesserit are out here watergating the shit out of everyone on Rakis.It's hilarious.
Yeah, we also see a lot of the bureaucracy.Another thing that's not really addressed directly is the bureaucracy of the priesthood, where the person at the top, Tuuk, who is treated with this holy reverence, no one can go against him directly.
They're still quietly like, should we fucking kill Tuuk?At one point, Styros and some of the other advisors are like, should we? kill Tuuk?And they decide not to.And we see in Tuuk, his urge is not necessarily to change that much.
His driving instinct is to think about and talk about.He's the one who wants to eat some weed gummies and stay up all night and talk about stuff. And Styros is like, yeah, but what are we going to fucking do?Like, can we bug her?
Can we put recording equipment on her?Can we?And Tuuk's like, but what would God think of that?So we see this, like, inability to act implicit within the priesthood.
Confronted with the sort of events that have happened, right?
Right.And the sycophants, for example, that surround Tuik, just all the yes men that he has around him.He gives very Pope vibes, right?He's like the mouthpiece of God.And you don't question Tuik's interpretation because
he speaks with Shai-Halud's voice.Yeah.That's a great point.We get little hints to the bureaucracy and honestly, like the inept bureaucracy of the priesthood and why a child who has this ability would totally throw them into disarray.
Yeah.It's really interesting.There's also more to say about it, but as you mentioned, we're going to cover some of this in the takeaways.
So that is where we'll wrap up chapter 11.Yes. Chapter 12, our final chapter today, is... What a rush.Oh, what a fun chapter.We are on a rescue mission with Miles Teg Bashar for the Bene Gesserit.
Now, Teg is on his way to a guild transport, and it's one that has like Ixian navigation systems, but it's got a guild member and he's on his way to meet with Tarazza, who's like, yeah, come on by.Let's have a chat.
And he's like, something doesn't fucking smell right.She's in trouble.I have to be prepared for anything.He's going through this whole like, I guess I'm gonna have to fight.And we failed because like, this is the time for violence, I guess.
And we see throughout this chapter, a fascinating glimpse into the powers of Teg's mind, basically, like the computational horsepower of a Mentat Bashar. as he's given two things and then figures all of the rest out by himself.
Then he's like, oh, there are armed people from the scattering on this ship and they're the ones keeping us, keeping you here, basically.The jumps are unreal, but we get a sense of this is the power of an experienced Mentat Bashar.
who can maybe fill in those blanks without too much trouble.
Right.I also wanted to comment just on Frank's writing here as well.Exposition is a very tough thing to do, right?Like bad exposition will very much stand out even to an average like moviegoer or book reader, right?
Like bad exposition is always bad and always stands out to everyone.Totally.Yeah.And what a brilliant way here to do exposition.
We are inside, Miles takes his head while he is figuring something out, and while he logics through all of this, it also doubles as a very fun way to do an exposition dump.
Here's what the Tleilaxu are up to, this is why they're doing it, here's the political situation, let me connect these dots.
And so he has to lay out the spreadsheet of this finance report, and we get to see the finance report without someone being like, Here is the finance report.Sell one.
You know, it's such a smart way to do exposition that only an experienced writer, which Frank would be at this time in his career, would be able to pull off in such a beautiful, fun, subtle way.
You know, this is what elevates storytelling from your average or middling or even just your good stuff to your truly, truly excellent work.
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.I also think like, this shows us, it's very easy, I think to write.I shouldn't say it's very easy, but it's easier to write a story that has lots of players and different politics and things.
If you just kind of forget each actor's agency and what they're trying to accomplish and why they would do the things they do.You can just have them show up where they need to show up to keep the plot moving forward.
These little moments also serve for me as a reader as a chance to take a step back and remind myself like, oh yeah, no, this universe is operating with a little bit of consistency and internal logic.
Each of these parties has something that they want.He has that bit about how the Tleilaxu wouldn't willy-nilly throw away the Bene Gesserit alliance because the Bene Gesserit takes so much spice from them. So, it's like, oh, okay, yeah.
So, no matter what we hear from Woff, right, Master of Masters, although they think of the Bene Gesserit as Powinda, they're not going to, like, toss that allegiance away because they're still very useful.
And that, to your point, is not given to us in, like, awkward, paragraph-long exposition, Brian, at the beginning of the chapter.Instead, it's wrapped into a character-driven moment.That makes perfect sense.
Yeah.For anyone who's interested in becoming a better writer, studying scenes like this is how you do it.
You know, this is how you realize a character driven scene where a character is doing something that totally makes sense for them in that moment in the story and also builds a very tense, like sort of rescue mission can also operate as a fun way to do exposition delivery for the reader without it feeling forced and ham-fisted.
I really appreciated that.So I wanted to call that out.Frank. doing the work here.
Yes, in mere seconds, Teg figures it all out. There are, yes, Mother Superior Tarazza is captive, and there's like a pair of shoes sticking out from the curtain over there, and that guy's from the scattering.
So he marches over, pulls back the curtain.Guy's like, ah, ah, you're so tall.Although the guy's tall, too.Did you catch that?The guy's almost as tall as Tag.Right.
And Tag is a giant man.He's like six, seven.
Six, seven.What are these tall scattering people? But nevertheless, although he is pretty tall, Teg and Terraza dig into this poor man who is not paid enough to be on the receiving end of this conversation.
And basically, Teg's like, oh, by the way, I just greenlit this whole ship being blown up.So, you know, act quickly.Let us go or we all die. And the guy's like, you're bluffing?Uh, you wouldn't kill the Reverend Mother Superior?
And Tag's fully like, Teraze was a pleasure serving, honor to serve with you.
The fucking show these two are putting on.
She's like, you know, trusted you would Tag.Pleasure serving with you too.They high five.It's like, oh shit.Okay.Maybe they're not bluffing.Pretty good.
This is honestly such a funny and entertaining interaction, and Tag and Terraza just dominate the situation.
We also get a sense that this is not only for this poor guy to get Terraza out of this sticky situation, but it's also sending a very clear signal to whoever is listening, presumably an honored matre or like a member of the honored matre who's on the ship somewhere.
Quote, You have just witnessed the performance of a Mentat Bashar, which I doubt could be equaled in your universe.Think of that if you consider going against Burzmali, a man trained by this Mentat." Sheesh!Absolutely wild.
Also because that is delivered within the like, yeah, I mean, yeah, you can kill me.That's fine.I just want to point out, you underestimated this guy, who in a matter of seconds figured out everything.
And now imagine him piloting a warship and commanding an army set on destroying you.
You're gonna lose. So all of this to say, the agent buckles just caves comically and allows them to leave the ship.He's like, OK, fine, get out of here.I don't want to die.I don't want everyone to die.Sure.
And this leads to probably one of the funniest moments in the book so far, where Taraz's party is summoned and tags like, sorry, before we rush out of here, I know that there's like a timer counting down to all of us dying.
Your names and he like meets them one at a time shakes their hands.Yeah.Oh, I saw you at the uh, at the the gala like two years ago at the christmas party.How is your how's your sister?
She's doing well She's doing well.That's good.New house.Wow.That's great.Yeah.Yeah.Okay.
Anyway, great to meet you.
The fucking agents in the background like come on, man This guy's a sociopath And this is great.Quote, as they left, Teg turned to the uniformed stranger.One must always observe the niceties, Teg said.Otherwise, we are less than human.And quote.
What a line. it's so anime it's so anime also this poor guy who i guess he's probably also at like gunpoint you know from the honored matre but he's like Oh, yeah, we're coming back from the scattering.These people are all like old fashioned.
They weren't adventuring out there in the universe.He gets back and he's confronted by Teg, who's like this towering, brilliant man who just like destroys all of his leverage.
And then it's like, no, no, there's still time to talk about their sister's new house and like everything, because otherwise we're barbarians.Anyway.Yeah.Have a great rest of your day, friend.Oh my god.So good.
It's so good.It's a scene straight out of like Jojo.
Yeah, Jojo's Bizarre Adventure.A hundred percent.That is the tone.Or it's like the James Bond moment, right?Where James Bond kind of winks to the villain as he's leaving with the ticking bomb in the background.
It's so fun.And this is also a moment that I can see that Frank was having fun writing this whole thing. Well, this chapter ends as Tarazza reveals that getting captured was part of the plan.Teg's like, how the fuck did you get captured?
She's like, Teg, don't be stupid.I got captured on purpose.Like, that was the goal.And she knew it would save her.She's like, I knew you'd save us.It's fine.If you didn't, if we all got blown up, Burzmali was nearby to help out, right?
Burzmali was available on call right there, able to help out in a no ship, presumably.
As they make their way down to Gammu on a lighter, Tarazza puts on this kind of big show of like, oh yeah, Teg, your loyalty, your brilliance, everything you did was so excellent.And Teg's like, okay.Clearly not words of affirmation, Teg.
He's like, okay, this is a little strange, a little uncomfortable.Right, right.
He's an actions guy, you know?
Yeah, he's quality time.Acts of service.Acts of service, yeah.Oh my god, acts of service for sure.But he realizes, again, he's a clever dude. he realizes that all of this is intended for the sisters who are part of Terraza's entourage, basically.
This is a show to be like, I need you all to understand who and why Teg is so important to us and why he's here. And finally, Terraza drops just the most incredible bit of news, I think, to everybody in the ship.It's time.It's time.It's too early.
I know, but it's time.The Gola has to be awakened.ASAP.We got to get it done.
Yeah, what a set of chapters.It's just wild and whiplash from the like stagnation of the Shiana chapter to the just thrilling sudden like James Bond episode of Tag and Tarazza on this ship.It's so much fun.
Yeah.Yeah.A nice change of pace from the two people in a room talking that we've had for most of the chapters thus far.Love to see a little rescue mission.
Three people in a room talking.It's crazy.We call that a threesome.Call this a menage a chat?Menage a talk? Well, we are going to get into some takeaways, some meaty, thick, triple C, thick takeaways.But first, we're going to take a quick break.
So don't go anywhere, dear listener.When we're back, we're going to talk about Shiana, the false prophet.Right after this.
Welcome back, folks.Let's dive into our Triple C Dummy Thick Spicy Boy Wormy takeaways today.Yeah.We got two of them for you, starting with Shiana the False Prophet.
So for this first takeaway, we wanted to take a moment to explore how Shianna's presence has thrown the Church of the Divided God into disarray, right?
We watched it all chapter long, Tamalane giggling the entire time, watching Shianna sow doubt and chaos among the priesthood.
The first thing I wanted to bring up here is this interesting contrast in the way the locals are reacting to the arrival between Shianna, the Holy Child, throwing the church into disarray, and the Fremen from the earlier books receiving Paul-Muad'Dib, the Lisan al-Gaib.
Both prophets coming into the situation, but the reaction to each prophet is dramatically different.If you sort of cut to the core of it, the thing that I think is probably the main differentiator between those two situations is the Bene Gesserit.
Bene Gesserit actions and intentions behind Paul versus behind Shianna.With Paul, as we know, the Bene Gesserit spent generations laying the groundwork for Paul's potential arrival and for Paul's holiness and his rise as Messiah.
Ultimately, of course, we know that backfired on them.Whereas here, in heretics, the Bene Gesserit are taking a much more backseat approach.
For now, Tamalane is simply observing and reporting, and watching Shiana stir the pot, rather than getting directly involved.Seemingly, they're gearing up to get involved, but so far, they're just watching everything take place.
It's an interesting contrast between those two, I think.
Yeah.And I think the contrast continues into a couple of other dimensions as well.If we're looking in Dune, the Fremen accepted Paul pretty easily, right?
The groundwork had been laid, the legend of the Lisan al-Gaib, and even outside of minor hitches here and there, like Jameis challenging him and going, fuck this, he's not the Lisan al-Gaib.
Outside of that, especially after The Cave of Birds, right, that whole show he puts on with Stilgar.
He very quickly rose to power.Like, even with the time skip that Villeneuve left out of the movie, it's only two years that he went from being a stranger to the Fremen to being the like, anointed leader of every Fremen on the planet. Right?
It's pretty nuts.Granted, Paul, partially because of his Bene Gesserit training and especially once he had been through the spice coma, he knew everything that needed to be said.He had the groundwork laid for him by the Missionaria Protectiva.
He, right, knew their ways as if born to them.
You've seen that guy put on a still suit?My God.Slip style?The heels?My goodness.How'd he do that? I had to learn that from the Prima strategy guide on putting on a stillsuit.
And it also helps that Paul played a huge role in helping them overthrow their oppressors, right?Like the Harkonnens were 80 years of oppression and brutality.
Right.He was the catalyst.He like almost gave them the initiative to strike back because up until that point, seemingly it's just a stalemate situation.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.And I think this also then contributes to them being way more likely to follow someone.
with that kind of shared enemy, or that perception of, oh, the status quo of the galaxy where we're having to like bribe smugglers to keep the guild weather satellites away from our desert.That is annoying.
And Paul's like, you know, it's also annoying the whole rest of it, you want to topple everything.And they're like, Oh my god, did we just become best friends.So for sure, there was that piece of the puzzle, right?
Where Paul and the Fremen, they kind of came together, they had a common goal, right?This is not the same as Shiana.No one really even knows what her goals are.
The priesthood is struggling to even identify their own goals, because it just seems like they've been in this holding pattern.So there isn't as much of that catalytic relationship, right?
I mean, in heretics, Tuak and the priesthood are literally struggling to understand her at all.
They're like, we have this new Messiah delivered to us by God as we see it, and she's just spouting heresy all the time.
Ooh, this is going differently than we were hoping. Completely.
And I think personally, as you were talking about this sort of like maybe juxtaposing the two prophets, I agree that the Bene Gesserit and how the Bene Gesserit are handling it and how involved they're getting, that is for sure one piece of the puzzle.
But I think what really sticks out to me is how established the religion and the form of the religion is. as being one of the biggest differences, right?Like the priesthood is in power.They are the oppressors.
They are, effectively, as the Harkonnens were and as the Imperium was to the Fremen, right?
So much so that Shiana is seen as like a dirty desert child who, as far as I can tell, is fitting into the form of the Fremen, the people of Muad'Dib, the people of Leto II, the people of God.
And yet the priesthood subjugates them and kills them and sacrifices them.So they are the system of power in contrast to the Fremen, right?
Yeah, absolutely.And I think that is an interesting contrast there.The Fremen are the underdogs, whereas the priesthood and heretics are, as you stated, the people in power.They are the ruling class.
And I think that changes the dynamic, of course, right?Because as we know, a huge theme in the Dune Saga, something that Frank is trying to really get across and keeps hammering home.
White savior stories. Uh-huh.
Yeah, white saviors are good heroes.
Yeah, every good give everything to the hero the guy the charismatic leader everything.
That's right Did I understand getting those Imagine walking away from doing it being like yeah, that's Well, that's like people watching three seasons of the boys and being like Homelander's a good guy.
Oh It's like exactly right.I'm sorry.Did you miss the first episode?
Did you miss this whole season where he was fucking a Nazi?
Yeah, I think that was maybe a subtle clue that he's not on the right side of things Yeah, the boys as many things and I love the boys
Anyway, power is a corrupting force.That's a big theme that Frank has hammered home for many, many books now.And the priesthood are clearly the people in power.
And thus, anyone who questions their religious beliefs, like Shiana is doing quite openly and brazenly, is also, by extension, questioning their power and authority. the thing that they don't want to lose grasp on.
And that is going to rebound and corrupt the religious beliefs, right?
Like, no matter how sound their belief system might be, if people are questioning it, and if Shianna is rallying the masses to push against them, they're going to do whatever it takes to hold on to power, whether God said to do so or not.
Obviously, they are struggling with how much of that to do, right?How much do we push the boundaries of religious belief?How much do we believe in Shianna, this false prophet or this prophet to them?
And how much do we have to tiptoe to keep our power?Styros, literally out here wondering if it's time to deliver Tuig, the high priest, the voice of Shai-Hulud who cannot be questioned. to the worm in the desert, you know?
He's entertaining.Translated to whatever it is.He's entertaining those thoughts, which is wild.But he's entertaining them because power, of course, is a corrupting force.
And when you look at it through that lens, not just through a religious lens, but through a political lens, it puts a lot of Dromund and Styros' doubts and actions in context.
It explains why they would be hesitant and resistant for the status quo to change. and for it to change at the behest of, as you stated, like a, like a dirty child from the desert?She played with scorpions as a child?
Right.So it's really interesting to see how power and politics and religion are all sort of butting heads here among the priesthood.And that's a big reason why there's so much chaos and confusion among them.
Yeah, it's so fascinating.It's one of those things, especially after reading and talking about foundation, we see there are certain patterns that within a population cannot be repeated multiple times.And the idea of a Fremen or desert prophet
happening, and then upending these power dynamics and stuff.And now the people in power are those who believe in that Fremen prophet.Well, now a new prophet is coming along from the desert.
And not that it's not working, but that it's not at all happening the same way, the same way that like, yeah, it took Hover Mallow to recognize religion is not how you expand once religion has already been used to expand to a certain point.
It becomes economics, money is my religion, that whole thing. So the idea that the priests expect almost another Muad'Dib to happen, not that they are because I think they've lost that bit of history after the tyrant.
But still, it's almost like they expected this child to be delivered by God to help bolster the religion.When in fact, the child is acting more like the prophet from Children of Dune going, you're all evil.Fuck you all.
You know, and so, yes, exactly.Very much in that same pattern, right?Shiana just skipped the Paul part and got right to the prophet.
Yeah. Leah what a good parallel because think of Aaliyah and her struggling with her religious and political power Yeah, being like I can't fucking kill the preacher because that's gonna be a bad look the optics aren't good They're same thing, right?
They said Styros suggested priestess Shiana should have a fatal accident Right, and it's created by and then they have to walk that back cuz they're like fuck that'll be such a joke It was a prank
Yeah, that's a really excellent connection there.Very preacher energy coming from Shiana.And it's unexpected, you're right.Like, they expected a prophet from God to come in and hype them up, you know?
For their prophet to come in and be like, you're too weak, man, he's got the biggest dick in the world.Styros, my guy, he can do a 360 180 kickflip.No scope, oh shit.No scope, oh my god, you should see this guy in COD, bro.
Yeah, Styros has a G Fuel sponsorship.
And Shiana's showing up and is not the hype man they expected from the prophet to be.The religious expectations are absolutely out of touch with the reality of who and what Shiana actually is.
Now, speaking of religious expectations, I did want to circle back on that as well, because while, yes, one factor is Bene Gesserit tampering, Another factor is politics and power.
Religion is still playing a huge role here as well in how the priesthood is reacting to Shianna as a prophet or a false prophet. I did a little bit of research because I was curious what other religions say about false prophets.
And for many of them, like, the idea of prophets is not relevant.Like, in Hinduism, there really is no such thing as a prophet.But in Christianity, of course, prophets play a significant role.And in Islam, prophets play a significant role.
They, in fact, share many prophets.Same with Judaism. And when you look into those religions, there are many warnings against false prophets and what to do if you come across a false prophet and how to judge one.
For example, in Christianity, from my research, it was often repeated that. the Bible advises everyone to judge their teachers and their preachers and anyone claiming to be a prophet, not by their words, but by the fruits of their actions.
The things that they do and what fruits that bears.Pretty sound advice, I'd say.I agree.
And of course, in Islam, the whole issue of modern-day false prophets is a bit of a non-starter, because Islam established that the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, is the last one.
And there will not be any other prophets until the return of Jesus, the same thing that Christianity believes.Islam believes that as well.
So Islam sort of covered their ground there when it comes to false prophets, but the same warnings against false teachers or false preachers is the same as in Christianity, right?Don't listen to just their words, listen to their actions.
Do they align with their words and do they align with the word of God? That's the advice that can be found in modern day religions when it comes to false prophets.In Dune, and for the priesthood here, it's a little more ambiguous.
Lato II clearly left much more confusing instructions.Or, of course, as we know, many of Lato's journals have actually been kept under lock and key.They've been hidden away by researchers or the Bene Gesserit or other powers that be.
And the stuff that is out there has been called into question.We talked about an epigraph, I believe, just in the last episode, an epigraph in this very book where a scholar is questioning why Latow would extend his life and become a worm.
And he doesn't believe Latow's own words in the journal and Latow's own justifications for that choice.He's calling that into question.
Words are cheap. All of that wrapped up together also helps us understand why the priesthood is so confounded by Shianna and don't quite know how to handle this.Is she a prophet?Is she a false prophet?How do we test her?Should we test her?
Will that make God mad?How delicately should we test her?What does she mean when she asks the worm whether she should retaliate against the priests?Like all of this is throwing them into disarray because
Laytotu's instructions were perhaps less clear than the Quran saying, yeah, no, he's the last one.None, nobody else after this is going to be a prophet.So don't worry about it.
And what's interesting is even Styros, despite being one of the most vocal doubters in this chapter of Shiana, finds himself waffling back and forth. Quote, even if we remove this thorn, God may visit us with an even more terrible intrusion, he said.
And he warned, the oldest books say that a little child shall lead us, end quote.
It is so fascinating to hear someone high up in the priestly order to say God may visit us with an intrusion, an inconvenience, ugh, how upsetting. that God should deem to mess up our plans.
It is clear that this is an organization of power and control, and their ultimate goal is to maintain that.
you know, as you're talking, from an outside perspective, so much, I listened to a lot of early Bible and like the Old Testament debates and scholars talking about what different passages mean and all that.
And from the perspective of people wrote this to maintain social order and power for themselves, Yeah.So much of it just makes sense.And I think people just recognize that.It's like, oh, yeah.
I mean, it's a little bit more obvious in faiths like Mormonism, where you had Joseph Smith, his wife was talking back to him all the time, and he's like, give me one second, goes away, comes back, goes, God told me that you're not allowed to do that anymore.
And the woman's like, okay, well, if God said it, and like that being so on the nose of a means of making sure that things basically stay the way they are.
and how dangerous it would be if people started talking through what exactly the words were using and getting into semantic debates and stuff.
So let's just ignore the way that people talk, and then let's focus on how they act, and whether or not how they act is in line with what I've told you God demands.
And if they're acting in a way that God demands they don't, then they shouldn't be trusted, and they shouldn't be.Like, they're clearly sinners or whatever.They're part of the out group, and you shouldn't consider them too closely.
And it's like, wow, what a great system of checks and balances to make sure that people don't leave, basically, or don't doubt.
Naturally, I treat that somewhat cynically, but I think that's also just because we see some examples, I think that we can all agree, are not so great these days, different faiths.
But on a more kind of, I don't know, optimistic level, there is also a benefit to saying for those people who need to feel as though they are being observed and held accountable for their actions, even when no one else is there to see them act.
That is a useful force to have. And then for a lot of people, it's also community and it's being belonging and all that.
And so I don't mean to decry all of religion, but I can absolutely see where Frank would be coming from writing this organization to be the way it is.It makes perfect sense to me, at least.
Yep. I mean, a lot of religion is written and God's word is conveniently spoken to really maintain like an internal stability and status quo.Many religions encourage people to have as many kids as possible within that religion.
And I've always found that to be like very culty, you know, like populate more of the world with more of us and indoctrinate them from childhood to be more of us.We want you to do that.And in fact, it's sinful if you don't.Okay, bro.
I gotta say I've worked as a singer in a number of Christian churches and like watching a baby Baptized and then the parents being told by the guy who's in charge of the congregation going Do you promise to help this child fight against Satan for their entire life?
I'm like chill dog.The kid doesn't even know how to walk like give the kid a chance to walk around a bit before you you know,
He can't swing a sword in the final battle of heaven and hell.Goddamn, he's a baby!
He's a baby!He doesn't even know how to hold up his head yet.You're right.
It's that sort of like, have as many kids propagate because if we are having more kids on average than the people of that faith over there, in a hundred years, the scales are just going to tip in our favor without us really having to do that much.
But at the end of the day, You know, raise your kids how you want.Just give them a chance.Give them a chance to hold their head up before you start putting them into a faith.Maybe that's a hot take.I don't mean to come for you Baptist folks.
Yeah, that's how we feel about it.But I think we've always been pretty openly skeptical about religion on this podcast and Dune, of course, challenges and tackles many of those religious ideas all throughout.
So yeah, it's not like we're reading.We share our opinions about religious texts, adding our skepticism.It's a deeply skeptic text.
So getting back to Shiana and Paul and comparing these prophets from the various eras of Dune, what are we to make of it?And taking a step back, looking at it all in context of Dune's themes and Frank's messages, what are we to make of it?
And I think one way that we could approach answering this question is looking at the way that the priests are written as these kind of like bureaucratic, aloof, bumbling fools, kind of out of touch with what's going on in the streets, right?
Really only going out among the populace when they need to grab some blood sacrifices for Shihud.It makes it clear that they are in the wrong.We can see that Frank is not writing them to be sympathetic.
Now there is obviously some commentary here about religious corruption and the thirst to hold on to power.This is exactly what we were just talking about.
And it's also clear in all of this that Frank wants us to be skeptical of religious institutions and beliefs, because again, maybe the initial concept, maybe the initial catalyst that led to this organization is ambiguous or is open to interpretation.
And then you have people saying, it's not ambiguous.I have the answers.I'm in control.I'm in charge.Being skeptical of that person who so confidently declares that they're the one in charge, Not a bad idea.
Clearly, that's something that was on Frank's mind as he's writing all of this.And these are all themes.This is not new to Dune Heretics, although Dune Heretics definitely puts it in the foreground a little bit.
This is all stuff that Frank has written about at length, and lessons that Leto was talking about basically continuously in God Emperor of Dune, attempting to teach humanity not to trust these sorts of organizations.
Exactly.Interpretation and corruption are always going to ultimately be the rot at the core of an institution, especially one that's thousands of years old and believes in a God that hasn't been around for almost 2,000 years.That's going to happen.
And I think Frank has always been warning us about that and is just continuing to be more and more explicit about it here in Heretics.
Now I do want to take one second before we move on to our second takeaway and just address something that y'all might have been feeling with the Shiana chapters in particular.
And that is something that Apu and I, you and I were talking about this, I think like four days ago, five days ago, this feeling of like, good Lord, something happened.
The Shiana chapters are interesting and they're fun, especially with like Telamain enjoying the show and the talks of killing Tuic.And there's a lot of interesting stuff happening, but there's also not a lot happening, period.
Like there's a sort of stagnation that's happening in these Shiana chapters.It's kind of just been Shiana and the priesthood not really getting along for the last three chapters.
And I think if you as a listener are feeling that same sense of like, another Shiana chapter, I feel like nothing's going to happen.And then the chapter ends and you go, yeah, not a lot happened, called it.I think you are not alone in that feeling.
And I think this is not a coincidence. that that feeling that you have, if you have that feeling, is the same feeling as Tuuk and Styros and the priesthood.That is a feeling they have as well.This feeling of, I want things to happen.
I want things to change.It's kind of just chilling and we're having our conversations.We're talking about who we should kill, who we shouldn't kill.Haven't decided on anybody.Oh my God, can something please happen?
And I think as we move forward in the book, and I think the same thing about that Tleilaxu chapter, if you have those uncomfortable feelings, I think Frank is a good enough writer at this point where I encourage everyone to do what I'm trying to do, which is this second time I'm reading the book to investigate those uncomfortable feelings and go, is this meant to align me with some character in the scene, in the setting, right?
Am I seeing the Tleilaxu with this like terrible bias that I see the Bene Gesserit has because of all these previous books and should I re-examine that?
Am I anxious for something to happen because nothing is truly happening and that's how the priesthood is feeling as well?
I think it's hard to say at this point, but I do think that Frank is maturing as a writer in this book, and I think that that is something he has already used in this book, and I'll be interested to see if it's something he continues to use.
for sure.I just wanted to validate anybody who's feeling anxious with these Shiana chapters because nothing's happening.Same.And probably that's on purpose on Frank's part because that's the vibe.That's everyone wants something to happen on Rakis.
The priesthood have a child of God and nothing good has happened yet. and they're anxious and they're antsy.So if at any point you feel that, just wanted to acknowledge it and say, let's engage with that feeling intentionally, you know?
Right, right.We're watching paint dry, but the room is going to look spectacular once it's dried.
Yeah.Or we're reading a chapter.
It's part of the process.
We're reading about a character watching paint dry.We're going, I am bored.And it's like, yeah, so is the character.
Yeah.Yeah. Okay, wow, so that wraps up our enormous first takeaway.Believe it or not, folks, we were still only talking about the first takeaway.Let's take a breather.
Let's collect ourselves and get ready for almost an equally huge second takeaway, which we'll get to right after the break.
Welcome back, everybody.Hope you enjoyed your break.Let's get into our second takeaway today.
Let's do it.Our second takeaway is all about Miles Tagg, baby.
Okay, so for this takeaway, we're going to explore this really interesting dichotomy in Miles Tagg and what it could mean for his character, for the Bene Gesserit at large, and of course, the themes of the Dune Saga.
So consider this thought that Teg has as he's approaching the guild transport in the chapter today.Quote, if we cannot adjust our differences peacefully, we are less than human.End quote.So.Whoa.Yeah.Powerful statement.Powerful statement.
What an unequivocal condemnation of violence. from the best military leader the Bene Gesserit has ever had in their history.That is powerful stuff.
And that is so interesting that Teg, a military man, would hold this belief so near and dear to his heart.And in fact, we get the sense that avoiding combat might be somewhat of a hallmark for Teg in his career.
Because when an attendant brings him to Terraza, we get this quote.
Quote all seemed serene and ordinary the attendant properly deferential toward the Bashar I was a Treg commander at undo you the attendant said naming one of the almost battles where tag had prevailed and Quotes the fact that there are enough of them to just be like oh, yeah, that was an almost battle Didn't ever get to bloodshed and tag prevailed
Yeah, big stuff.And Teg, in fact, was very good at avoiding conflict.And it was one of his redeeming qualities.Super fascinating stuff.I mean, Teg's restraint here against violence, despite being a lifelong military man, is admirable.
And it shows us that some of Leto's lessons have made their way into humanity's consciousness. Church of the Divided God maybe didn't take great notes, but the Benny Jezzard and Teg were taking great notes.
Yeah, and they're not throwing out the baby with the bathwater, right?
Like they're very actively going, you know, the tyrant is a piece of shit in a lot of ways, but taught us some good lessons, and we're taking some pages from his playbook, for sure.
Exactly, exactly.I mean, think back to God Emperor of Dune. Leto, constantly frustrated about armies and militaries and that military mindset in those conversations he's always having with Duncan.
Because Duncan, of course, the very sort of old-fashioned military man, can't wrap his mind around Leto's new-fangled Gen Z ideas. Yeah.
Here's a quote, for example, from God Emperor of Dune quote, they believe that by risking death, they pay the price of any violent behavior against enemies of their own choosing.They have the invader mentality.
Just one example.One example of dozens in God Emperor of Dune where Lato and, you know, oftentimes Frank is railing against armies.And it's this like sort of disdain for the military mindset and the warnings against falling prey to it.
that Leto spent 3,500 years trying to teach humanity.And it's clear that the Bene Gesserit and Miles Teg in particular have taken those lessons to heart.
Yeah, it's also, you know, Frank always writes characters who are very obviously sympathetic characters that we are kind of intended to align with.
And that Teg is such a sympathetic character that we're clearly really encouraged to root for every step of the way, right?Doesn't like chair dogs, Great choice.
Also the fact that he's taken these lessons and taken them seriously and is clearly embodying them over a long and storied career.Yeah, it's a pretty notable plaque for him to have on his wall.
And just in case you're not picking up what Frank is putting down, Terraza literally outlines this a little bit later in that chapter with Teg, right? We get this quote, quote, we like to settle the most passionate situations off the battlefield.
I must admit, we have the tyrant to thank for that attitude.I don't suppose you've ever thought of yourself as a product of the tyrant's conditioning, Miles, but you are, end quote.There it is.Spelled it out for us.He accepts that.
He's like, yeah, okay. And she is talking, of course, about the Bene Gesserit, but of course, we know that Teg, his whole life is shaped by the Bene Gesserit.
His mother was a reverend mother and taught him, and his whole career is under the servitude of the Bene Gesserit and is defined by things that they've taught him.
Now Tarazza also goes on to compliment Teg's ability to empathize with both sides of a conflict in a way that makes him both endearing and at times disarming, which is very powerful.
Quote, you really feel things the way the enemy feels them, Terraza said.That is what I mean.And of course, when you're in that mental frame, there is no enemy for you, end quote.
Yeah, that idea of understanding and empathizing where people come from, and understanding what they want, and understanding what their goals are, as a prime condition for disarming the conflict and resolving it peacefully.
Huge, and enlightened for sure.Also, again, can't stop thinking about anime, very much reminds me of Vinland Saga. Thorfinn's father, Thor's, you know, you have no enemies.No one has enemies.
It's all made up.But the themes of Vinland Saga are actually super relevant to what we're talking about here.Just this idea that like. Obviously Viking culture, very aggro, very toxic man wage war.And Lato basically is like, bro, stop.
No one's your enemy.This is all made up and there is a way to not do this.
And especially, I think, like, contrasting what Tarazza is saying, in that mental frame, there is no enemy for you, with the quote I read earlier from God Emperor of Dune, Leto saying that people in the military think that they are justified in any violent behavior against an enemy of their choosing.
You know, they are deciding that other group is my enemy, and I'm justified in any violent actions against them.
Teg, on the other hand, gets into a mental state where he empathizes so fully that he doesn't see them as the enemy and thus can perhaps take a diplomatic approach before resorting to violence.Now, what I found interesting, I did some homework.
Throughout writing this section of the script, I kept calling Teg and Tarazza and the Bene Gesserit pacifists.I wrote that a number of times throughout the script in the first draft. And then I was kind of like, well, I don't know.
Let me do some homework on pacifism, because maybe I'm not using that correctly.And it turns out I wasn't.You can't really call Tag and the Bene Gesserit, like, true pacifists as we define it today.
Because the Bene Gesserit haven't abolished war altogether.Teg has certainly fought in conflicts and battles.He has not refrained from any violence of any sort.And in fact, he will resort to violence when it is necessary.
We see that in the chapter today where he literally starts the countdown to blow the fucking guilt transport up.So if push comes to shove, Teg will do what he needs to, but he will always be diplomacy first.
And obviously, that's a very admirable approach.I don't know that any reasonable person would be like, no, that's dumb.You should blow the ship up first.
But I also want to acknowledge that, once again, we are getting a very one-sided Bene Gesserit viewpoint here.We are getting Terraza saying, oh, well, the Bene Gesserit, we always are diplomacy first.
We like to settle our conflicts off the battlefield. aren't we so good?
And I just want to acknowledge that, I don't know, maybe an outsider like the Tleilaxu or an Honored Matre, the people who are perhaps on the receiving end of a Bene Gesserit sword, might quibble with how admirable and good and taking the high road the Bene Gesserit are.
Always a matter of perspective there, but I think we can objectively say that the Bene Gesserit.Aren't resorting to like casual and callous violence the way we're almost seeing the priesthood.
Casually offer sacrifices casually suppress the populace and. take away their water, that sort of thing.They are just doing that as a means of control.
The Bene Gesserit would much rather come to the negotiating table first before resorting to more extreme measures.
Yeah, well, I think the Bene Gesserit have also, over their 30,000 years of activity, have learned a more sustainable and repeatable way of being in control of things.
Like, even wracking my brain, going back to the era of like, Mohaim, and Jessica, and Irulan, and Winsissia, and like, none of those people, like Winsissia sent a couple of tigers to kill some kids, but like,
They weren't really out here doing literally diabolical shit.
I mean, Irulan was poisoning Chani.
Yeah, but like not killing.
We're not going to call that diabolical?Yeah, that is, that is, that is.
Because like the priesthood is subjugating the people in monstrous ways and killing them and taking their lives, treating them as less than human.
it seems to me like members of the Bene Gesserit are always so much more surgical than that, or they're enough in the background behind powerful enough individuals in the Imperium, they don't need to get that involved, where Shaddam was just doing what Mohayim needed him to do, without her having to get her hands dirty, you know?
Right, right.Totally, totally.So I think they're not resorting to callous and casual forms of violence because they have learned long ago that that is not the way to stay in power or to stay above the sort of resultant turmoil, right?
Like, they have survived multiple cullings of political powers and imperial powers because they keep themselves as much as is possible above the fold whenever they can.
Yeah.And certainly I think there's some hairs worth splitting here about like, okay, maybe you're not getting your hands dirty, but if you're the reason people are getting their hands dirty, like how culpable are you here?
How much of the guilt kind of like falls on you?Yeah.And to sort of hand wave that away as the Bene Gesserit is certainly interesting, you know, we're seeing how they see themselves.
That is such a good point, because it's true, right?Like, when Paul is talking to Stilgar, he talks about Hitler killing millions, and Stilgar is like, wow, he must have been a great fighter.He wasn't involved directly.
And Stilgar going, I don't understand.
Right, so he wasn't a good fighter?What are you saying?He couldn't throw hands?
I don't understand.But I think you're right.It's like the Bene Gesserit might say, oh, we're more sophisticated than that.And then you go, didn't you cause a rebellion that led to like thousands of people dying on that planet last week?
And they're like, well, yeah, but like, we didn't do it ourselves.Like, I think you're right, like this is implicit Bene Gesserit propaganda in just how they see themselves, above the barbaric means.
But they're also letting Tuach and the other priests torture a populace and not doing anything to help.So I think you're right.
I think there is implicit here a bias that we should always remind ourselves of, even as Terraza makes it sound like the Bene Gesserit's above reproach.
But at the same time, I think like two things can be true and it is still admirable that they've taken Lato's lessons to heart about the military mindset and that they at least nominally are taking this diplomacy first approach and that they would in fact train and breed and prepare
Miles Tegg to be one of their greatest Bashars, because he is someone who can be so empathetic, because he can avoid conflict more often than he can win conflict.And so I think all of that is still admirable.And it's the preferable approach.
Again, as I stated earlier, I think any reasonable person would agree.
Now, to wrap up the takeaway, I think thematically, just sort of zooming out and getting meta about it, like all of this very much in line with the themes we've talked about over the course of this podcast and over the course of our book club series of the first five books so far.
Frank has always been hammering these themes home. And what I find so interesting is every time I remember that Frank lived through the Cold War and witnessed it firsthand, so much of Dune suddenly fucking makes sense.
Like, of course, Frank wouldn't be an outright pacifist, probably, but he would be against all-out warfare, considering mutually assured destruction would mean the end of the human race.
And you have no choice but to take a diplomacy first and empathetic approach, because the other approach is literal apocalypse.
So a lot of the themes that we continue to see in the Dune universe and in these books, for me at least, tie back to the Cold War era and the historical era that Frank grew up in and witnessed firsthand.
Yeah, it's really good context.In the same thing that when we're talking about like religion and politics, knowing Frank's background, knowing from the perspective he was writing, helps.
And it helps to remember the historical context for all of this, for sure.
Well, that's our episode.Good.
Heavens, another one in the bag, the one in the box of chair dogs. For our next episode, dear listener, got some homework for you.
Make sure you've read through chapter 15 or to the end of the chapter that ends on the sentence, quote, we will not give those fools another opportunity to lose you, end quote.
Yeah, spicy.Those idiots, those fools, those, I don't know, dimwitted donkeys.I said full chested the other day, an idiom that does not exist.And it's so funny to me because I was editing the episode and I was like, wait, this isn't a thing.
No, no one says this.They're just chewing on their shoelaces.And I said that so confidently and it sounds good. is not a saying.So anyway, those fools, those shoelace chewing fools.
Right.Well, now it is a thing because we're going to make it a thing.We're making a thing.Folks, before we let you go, we're going to stop chewing on our shoelaces and we're going to remind you of a couple of ways to support us and keep in touch.
Starting, of course, with the two best ways to support this show and help us continue.One, become a patron.Patreon.com.com.Jabbar.Ad-free episodes, behind-the-scenes live streams, early access to book clubs, and so much more.
Go check it out and support us at whatever level you can.It really helps.And of course, the number two best way to support us is to check out our merch store. Com2BarShop.com.
We've got some great merch there with custom designed art, and we'd love for you to check it out.All of those links will be in the show notes for your convenience and for your mouses to clickety-click-clack on.
Yeah.And also we love to hear from you.So email us, gamjabarpodcast.gmail.com.That's the email address.I know you can't believe it, but it's true.Trust me.Send us your thoughts, your questions, biographies of your pets.
If you're going to get a pet soon, what are you, where are you looking?All that, whatever it is, tell us.Gamjabarpodcast.gmail.com.We love to hear from you.It's the best.We do.
We respond in at least two years. Mm-hmm no longer than two years so far so far We'll see
Well, friends, there is no real ending.It's just the place where you stop the recording.But this podcast is always one step beyond logic.So help spread the word of Muad'Dib and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.
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