Welcome to Brutally Anna, a podcast about finding love, losing love, and all the things we think about but don't talk about enough.
I'm your host Anna Kai, aka maybe both across social media, here to remind you that life can be beautiful even when it's freaking brutal.
So our guest today is very special to me, Lindsey Metzlar of We Met at Acme, because over a year ago, Lindsey's podcast was actually the first podcast I ever guested on.
And since 2017, Lindsey has been unpacking historically taboo topics on dating, intimacy, and relationships.
One of my favorite fun facts about Lindsey is that she started her podcast after being dumped by her ex-boyfriend on her birthday, which is so rude, and we'll get into that later. But now she's one of the leading voices in dating and relationships.
Lindsay, thanks so much for being here.Thank you for having me.You're so meant to have a podcast.Just that intro was amazing.You know what?
I'm doing my best not to crap my pants right now in the presence of, you know, an OG dating and relationship podcaster, but I appreciate that.Thank you so much.You're great.
So, you know, I want to first talk to you about your relationship with Steven, which is your husband, if you don't follow Lindsay.There was a really interesting quote about you in Today, where you said you learn a lot about life from your guests.
And you said, in particular, from Jared Matthew Wise, he told you that you should never ask a guy to define the relationship.You should lay it out as a conversation.Like, here's what you can expect from me, and here's what I expect from you.
And I feel like, and I'm sure you get this all the time, one of the questions I get the most is like, how do I broach the subject of what are we, right?Everything's going well, but I don't want to rock the boat.
So how did you bring it up with Steven in the beginning stages?Great question.
And I was so lucky because by then I had my podcast and I was using my podcast as like a means to communicate with him without actually communicating.
Wait, that's hilarious because it kind of reminds me, remember like the away messages we used to throw up?Yes, exactly.
And you used to communicate with the guys and if you guys are Gen Z, you won't know, but he used to throw up like emo away messages.
Like something corporate quotes, like Constantine and love you.Right.That was fully me.I was talking about on my podcast how like I
you know was seeing this guy and like I'm you know I I think I I don't think I said like I'm ready to define things but you know between the poll questions I put up on my Instagram stories and the podcast like there was clear proof that I was ready to take that next step but podcast and Instagram aside we were having open conversations and I think because I had just come out of a recent relationship when I started dating Steven I had to kind of
make it clear that I was ready to take that next step, which is a unique circumstance.
Did you communicate with him like, hey, I just got out of a relationship.I want to take things slow because he probably also didn't want to pressure you.
Yeah, a little bit in the beginning.And then once I was ready, I was like, the signs were clear, you know.
Was he stalking every single story of yours and watching everything in the beginning?The funniest part is he's not on Instagram.I feel like, is your husband on Instagram?I feel like even if he is, he's like not active. He's not.
He's got like a weird burner account now that he created specifically just to follow me because he was like, I should probably see what you're doing given that this is like, you know, 80% of your life now.Right, right.But yeah, no, he's not on.
Which, as you know, is the best. So good.
But his friends would screenshot poll questions and send them to him.I remember one specifically, I was like, is it a red flag if the guy that you're dating still goes to Mykonos with his friends on like a boys trip?
Oh my God, did he just come back from Mykonos?
He literally was planning to go to Mykonos in like a few weeks.And all of his friends obviously screenshotted it, sent it to him.And they were like, what the, can I curse on this?Yeah.They were like, what the fuck, bro?Like, what's up with this girl?
They were like, she's the red flag.But how old was he at the time?Like 29.So it wasn't that much of a red flag looking back.He was single.
Yeah, he was single, whatever.He could have said the same thing about you if you were going somewhere. 100%.Did he ask you about it or did he just kind of... Was this like a conversation after you got married?He's like, oh, remember that?
Well, this is something I've been harboring for years.No, no, no.
He brought it up on like our next date.He was like, he was like, my friend screenshotted that you put up this poll or something.You know, it was like very, the communication was always very open, which is like a necessary green flag.
Right.And was that like always the way from the beginning?Like, was there an immediate comfort?Do you believe in love at first sight or? Was it like a chemistry at first sight?
I feel like for women, love at first sight is harder, and I'm curious what you think about that, because we don't just care about looks.
You know what?I believe—I don't believe in love at first sight, not so much.
I agree with that, but only because I feel like I have been like, and you have too, through the gauntlet of dating in New York City, and I have fallen in love at first sight because the first date—you know, we've all had those eight-hour dates where
You meet the guy for drinks, and then you're vibing, and then you go to dinner, and then you go for more drinks, and then you go to the hookah bar after, and you're like, I met my husband.And then you never hear from them again.
And so it's like, for me, it's like, I've had so many situations, or like, the guy that I was like, this guy is amazing.And then six weeks later, he's like, I'm not ready after like love bombing you.
for so long, and so I, by the time I met my husband, did not believe in love at first sight, because I was like, I have been burned way too many times, so even though we have such great chemistry, we need to see if there's longevity there.
So was that the same with you?
Same kind of thing, but I will say I did have intrigue at first sight.Okay.
And you know, and I don't know if this is a Libra thing, because we're both Libras, by the way, or just a female intuition thing, but any time I've been in the same orbit as someone,
And I've said to myself, like, this is not the end of me and this person.Even if it's like a friendship thing, I've been right.Like I've seen that person has come back into my life again and whatever.
And when I saw Stephen, when we ran into each other on New Year's, which is how we like re-found each other.I knew that there was going to be, he was going to be in my life.Like I just knew it was a feeling.
It wasn't like, oh my God, I'm in love with him.I'm going to, I like need to, you know, that's it.I was like, this is something.
This is going to be, yeah. If it's not marriage, at least it's going to be something longer term.Yeah.Do you believe in soulmates then?
Or is it more like, hey, you were in the right place, right time because, you know, you were a little bit older and you had, again, dated a lot of the wrong men.You were already somewhat established in your career.And so it feels like.
It was like a natural step.
I do think that he is like on that level, but I wouldn't, I don't think that anyone has one soulmate.I think we have multiple soulmates.Like our soulmates can be our best friends and can be like our sisters and can be all of those things.
So I just, I just like, I'm wary about saying, yes, you have one soulmate because people get so like down on themselves if they don't find that one person.I think you can make many people you're the one, you know what I mean?
But not many, but like a handful of people in this world.And I think Steven was one of my soulmates and I'm so glad that I you know, he is like my one, he's like my person, but I don't think like the stars were destined, you know what I'm saying?
I think what happens with women especially is like we put too much pressure on ourselves to have like the one, which there is the one if you're into monogamy and traditional.Totally.
There's always those people that are like, what about the polyamorous people?I'm like, I'm not talking to you because that's not me. I'm talking about monogamy and traditional relationships.
But I feel like I historically have used the one, oh my God, the chemistry was insane, I'll never have this again, to stay in a dysfunctional relationship.Because it's like, this is fate, we're meant to work it out.
I'll never feel this way about anyone else, and that's just not the case.Rest in peace the years I spent trying to fix men, because I was like, I'm never gonna feel like this about somebody else, and lo and behold, I did, and it was better.Exactly.
So wait, your ex that dumped you on your birthday, can we talk a little bit about that?Why your birthday?Like, literally talk about, like, terrible timing.
Horrible.Part of me is like, is it karma because I once broke up with someone on Valentine's Day?That's so much better.I'm sorry.
Also, it was because he didn't do anything.Like, he didn't get me flowers, nothing.So he deserved that.That was, like, a long time coming.
That was also probably the straw that broke the camel's back glass.Oh, it was?It was the straw. And he was just a doofus about holidays.You've been like, OK, it's fine.Exactly.You were like, you already did not give a shit about me.
And you couldn't even freaking get a box of CVS chocolates.Literally.Yes.
The birthday thing, it was actually like even sadder than you think, because he had like thought that we had broken up two days before my birthday.Why?And it was a miscommunication. And I didn't realize that we were broken up.
So I woke up on my birthday thinking I had a boyfriend and I got a text from my quote unquote boyfriend and he was like, happy birthday, Lindsay. And I was like, what?
Because it was so formal almost.Yeah.
I was like, wait, what is going on?
You could just tell.Women just know.Men would be like, oh, great.They text me happy birthday.Probably go on their merry way and be like, have a girlfriend or boyfriend for the next month.
And you were like... I was like, no, no, no.I mean, can you imagine if you are in a relationship with someone and they text you happy birthday, Anna?
I don't even know when the last time my husband referred to me by my name.Exactly.Like if Stephen was like, hey, I need to talk to you, Lindsay, you'd be like, are you dying?Exactly.
I'd be like, let me call my lawyer.Like, it's over.It's not going to be a lot.Like, yeah, literally.
Fully.So scary.Okay.So did you immediately call him?
I immediately called him and I was like, what was that text?And he was like, basically, like, I thought we broke up two days ago.And I was like, what?
I must have missed that because that is the most mortifying thing that's like ever happened in my life.
finding out about the breakup in real time.
It was terrible.And then we broke up again, like for real.
Wait, but I'm curious, why did he think you guys broke up two days before your birthday?
I have no idea.We had a conversation about like, and he had made some comment like, do you really think that this is long term or something?
And I was like, yeah. But, like, he thought that he had, like, laid his feelings out on the table.But this is a perfect example of, like, listen to what the guy says.Because men are very literal.
They are not having hidden messages or trying to be challenged when they're, like, I don't think it's going to work out.They're not throwing up holes on their Instagram.
Like, when they're like, I don't think this is long term, you don't say, yeah, yeah, you do.You know, you don't say, oh, he's just being silly.Like, he should live in the moment.No, he told you.
Yeah.Well, I mean, I think women and myself included are like champions at gaslighting ourselves.Yeah, it's true.It's like, well, he said this, but I think what he really means, no, no, he meant... No, he said it.He said it.
He's not ready for a relationship.And he genuinely means that.Totally.And it could mean that he's not ready for a relationship in general, or he's just not ready for one with you.And he knows that.Exactly.
And that was the biggest like... awakening for me that I was like, holy shit, I actually know nothing about dating.I'm mortified by myself.Let's get this podcast going.
How long were you with him for?
not that long.It was one of those like three-month, four-monthers that like are more difficult than the longer ones because they're so quick and like you don't really get to see the bad sides of them so it's harder to move on, you know?
You're in the honeymoon phase.I always like I talked to my husband about how some of the like most traumatizing relationships I had were like the one that I can think of all the time and I talk about it was six weeks.
It was six weeks, but it's like you're in the honeymoon phase where you're still like putting this person on a pedestal.
And when it ends, you're like, wait, I never brought you off of that and I never saw your humanity and it probably wouldn't have worked out anyways.
Whereas if you're two years in and things just don't work out because you realize this is not going to lead to marriage, you're like, I already know you have some really weird habit in bed or you smell or you don't wear deodorant.
True story, I did date a guy who did not wear deodorant. ever because he didn't think he needed it.And trust me, he did.So yes, that was the thing.No, exactly.Because I just didn't know enough of the bad.
So that's why it was like, you know, it was harder.So you were like, you know, most people go do yoga or they go on a retreat.You're like, I'm going to start a podcast.Why?Totally.
I did it because at the time there were really no dating podcasts. And I needed something.I needed some solace.I needed some sort of communication with friends that was lighthearted around this terrible thing that was dating in New York City.
And I felt like there had to be other women going through the same thing. things that I was going through.And I had watched Sex and the City front to back 100 million times.So I wasn't getting anything out of that anymore.
And so I just started talking to friends about dating, and the rest was like history.
That's great.And do you think that guy that you dated for three months listens to We Met at Acme or knows anything about where you are now and how basically you're like a star because he was a moron? You know, he probably has before, but who knows?
Who knows?Yeah, who knows?I know.It's so interesting because I've never—I don't have an ex that's in the public eye.
I always think it'd be—and I've certainly been the asshole, too, as I'm sure, you know, we've all been the bad guy and the good guy in the breakup.But I'm like, it would be really interesting if I broke up.I was the one to initiate a breakup.
And then that guy, because of our breakup, went on and had his massive blow up and became the president of the United States.Imagine if your ex was Barack Obama.
Well, but that's how people probably feel about you who dated you.They are probably getting served your TikTok content and your content in general and being like, I fumbled the bag.
Or they don't because I historically dated men without social media. So people ask me all the time, they're like, do you think your ex-chads are watching?And I'm like, no, because I think my ex-chads are all 85 years old at heart.
Like they all like, these guys are like barely even, they were like barely even using Facebook, right?
That's so interesting.Wait, let's unpack that.Why do you think you dated people who weren't on social media? And you ended up marrying someone who's not on social media.
Every single long-term relationship I've ever had, not including, you know, the whatever, the situationships, but even the guys that I like really fell for, all never had social media.
And it wasn't necessarily an age thing, though that does play into it because we're solidly millennials.But like, if you go like my, bless you, my husband is like an elder millennial, that era of people.
They were barely using Facebook because it just wasn't a thing when they were in college.It was like toward the end.So my first boyfriend in high school is our age and he just never had Instagram.
I've always been more attracted to men who are just a little bit probably more of like an I don't know, old soul is kind of an overused term, but maybe something like that.
Whereas I have girlfriends who are like, I need to be with a guy who wants to hike Machu Picchu and wants to go to Izu and Coachella, and I never was into that.I was like, it's too much.
Have you always been into guys that are, because Steven seems quite mature.I mean, he's not old, but he seems quite mature.He doesn't really use social media.
He definitely is, but I guess I was so intrigued by that because I only ever dated guys who were on social media before him, just because it's honestly hard to find someone that isn't.
And also, yeah, I just feel like more, like more, more guys are on social than aren't.Yeah.And they also like all the people I dated before Steven were You know, I'm not going to generalize and say trash, but they weren't great.
Exactly, we'll call them Chads.And they were all on social media like doing annoying social media things.So that always adds a layer to annoyance in your relationship.
You know, I'm sure you get a million DMs, like I get two, that are like, he's liking photos of other girls.And I'm like, thank God.Like, I don't have to think about this.But also, like, I wouldn't care if he did.
This is a common question.Should I care that the guy I just started dating follows naked women on Instagram?And I honestly would not care.My husband had like a social media account that he was following other people.
Did he follow some models and everything?Absolutely. care, not at all.And I am not a particularly like gracious person.I think I can be petty as fuck.So it's not like to say like, oh, I'm just like above that.
It's just a feeling like I'm sure with Steven, it's like if you're with the right guy, I'm like, it's not like you have horse blinders on to everyone else.It's not like, oh, you know, I'm I found my person.No one else is attractive.
I mean, I'm sure you and I, we see men and we're like, wow, you're really hot. What I've built is better, but like, go you, you know, and I think the same with my husband.I'm like, on his bachelor party, I was like, go talk to women, you know?
Exactly.I'm so happy that you said that.And it actually makes me think of another TikTok that just like went viral.I went on this girl, Kelsey Kreppel's podcast, who she's great.
And we talked about how it's not normal to have crushes when you're in a relationship.Of course it's normal to think someone's hot, but if you have like a deep crush on someone else, that's not normal.If you're fantasizing about it.Yeah, exactly.
Like you can be flirty with someone in like a whatever. and you can think someone's attractive, but to have like an actual crush is a red flag.And what you said about your husband, what's his name again?
Okay.So about Dave, when he's on his bachelor party and you're like, go talk to girls.That's exactly how I felt and feel about Steven.I'm like, oh, like someone thinks you're cute.Like go talk to her.
Like, why not?It's almost great.It's fun.
Like, I could not be less worried.
But with any, basically any guy in the past, more or less, it was always a concern to me what Instagram photos they were liking, what this that because in general, I didn't have the trust for them that I do for Steven.
And so that's always like a, you know, a flag going off that that person's not right for you.I think if they are liking photos and it upsets you, is it really the photos that upsets you?
Or is it the fact that if that girl turned around and said, I want to fuck you, your husband would fuck me?
They would say yes, right.It's a feeling you get from people.And I think that's the thing.It's not so much about the social media.It is about everything they're giving you off of social media, and then the social media validates it, right?Exactly.
And so, you know, my husband, I think like a couple years into our relationship, he like got banned from, you know how like Instagram will just like suspend random accounts?He's like, oh yeah, I lost that account.And I was like, oh, are you sad?
Because you like you followed all these people.And it wasn't just women.It was like, you know, one of his favorite podcasts, like bussing with the boys. And he's like, not really.He's like, I'll just create another one.
And now he follows like two people and one of them is me and the other one is us and with the boys.
And he doesn't care.But having said that, if you're a woman listening and you are like, that's a boundary for me that he cannot like a photo, then like then that's okay too.
You know, it's just like you know what works for you and what doesn't.
And there will be men that feel the same way.Like I've met men who like draw a hard line in the sand with what they feel is cheating.You like someone else's photo that you find attractive.Like that's a, you know, slight version of cheating.
I don't, you know?Fidelity is such an interesting topic.Do you listen to Esther Perel?I do.I love her.Love her.Because I think she has such an interesting take on, like, why people cheat.And I've always said to
Dave, I don't expect us to cheat on one another, but I think there's a huge difference between, like, cheating before marriage and then cheating when you're 20 years into a marriage and shit has hit the fan and, like, you know, maybe you're going through financial troubles because I've seen that with, like, my parents' friends.
No way should you get married to somebody who cheats on you before marriage.
Yeah.I mean, that's insane.But 10, 15 years in, I don't know how we're all going to feel when we're that married for that long.Right.Like you should do a check-in and be like, are we still happy?
You said before that you were like, if you were the other woman when you were dating, you would have gone to tell that woman, hey, your boyfriend reached out to me, right?
Because it's like girl code, which I think is very brave, by the way, because I think that's awesome.But also I watched too much Dateline and like, what if she like comes back and like tries to murder you?Oh, that's so funny.
No, I would only say that if I was unknowingly the other woman and then I found out.Like not if I like made a choice to be that.You know what I'm saying?And I've done that before.
Like I had a guy like bamboozle me and I told his girlfriend and they were about to get engaged.
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And she was like, oh my God, thank you so much.And then I had another situation more recently where I wasn't in it at all, thank God.I wasn't the other person, this, that.I was already, I think, married to Steven.
And someone reached out to me and they told me they were the other woman in my friend's relationship.Oh, because they like follow you and they know who you're friends with.
Exactly.And they couldn't get in touch with my friend because she's private on Instagram.But you are you.And they told me and I was like, oh my God, what do I do?
And I actually called her sister who I'm closer with and I was like, what should I do with this information?Right.And she was also about to get engaged.Like planned.Everything planned.Ring was bought.Did you know the guy? Had you spent time with him?
No, I never met him, but I knew that they didn't like him already.Like the family didn't really love him.
So it wasn't totally out of left field.I think it's always like interesting when it's like, oh my God, we had no idea he seemed like the most amazing guy.That's horrifying to me because I'm like, that's sociopathic behavior.
But that happens too.But anyway, so I ended up telling her and she was so grateful.
Okay, so the two experiences you've had, they've both been happy to find out.Totally.I mean, I've heard of situations where they don't want to know.It's almost like, hey, they kind of deep-seated in their hearts, like new already.
I feel like you can tell when there's a person who doesn't want to know.And there are people like that.And those people should marry people who cheat.
That's true, because you know what?I always think about it.There are men who cheat and women who cheat, quite frankly, and they end up married with kids and like sometimes they're happy, you know?Totally.
It's like everyone—and maybe that's where— Maybe they have an open relationship.Exactly. polyamory comes into play.
It's like, you know what, if monogamy and traditional marriage is not for you, you should figure out a space that is for you instead of trying to lie about who you are.
On a much lesser scale, I feel like I was dating all the wrong guys in New York City because I was trying to be the girl I wasn't.I was trying to be the cool girl.I don't care.I'll hook up with men, whatever.
And it's like you're just lying about who you are and you're attracting the wrong person. Right?With Steven it's like, did you guys talk about cheating?
Was it like a, you know, because I feel like it's sort of a conversation you bring up early on to see where people stand.
I actually feel the opposite.I don't think that you bring it up.I think that when you bring up, if you were someone that was cheated on.Yes.And you bring it up. It's the same thing as if Dave has like a hot assistant.Right.
And let's say his assistant's name is Cindy.And you're always like, oh, Cindy's so attractive.Are you sure you're not attractive to her?Cindy looks so good.It kind of makes me nervous that Cindy's your assistant.
like you're always bringing it up, then it literally puts the idea in his head, oh, Cindy is hot.Cindy's my hot assistant.I never even thought about her like that.Men are so simple.So simple, right?
And so if you are in a relationship with a man, it's like the beginning stages and you're like, so my last three boyfriends cheated on me.So I need you to know that like that's not something that I'm okay with.
You're the type of girl that I could possibly cheat on.I wonder, why do these guys cheat on you?What did you do?And I'm not saying that all men are sinister and evil and think like this, but it's planting a seed that doesn't need to be planted.
Right.We never talked about cheating.I think cheating came up, like, maybe a year into us dating when I put an episode out about my past cheating trauma.And he was like, oh, I didn't even, like, realize, you know, this so-and-so cheated on you.
And I was like, yeah, they were trash.Like, it was in high school, whatever.Right.And then moved it along.I never needed to have, like, a tell-all with him about
idiots that I dated in the past and how they treated me because that's not the standard that I have now.Was he in New York for a while before he met you?
Yeah, Boston and then New York.So like in major cities.I feel like men go through this dating process in our 20s in the cities unscathed.They're like, yeah, I haven't met the right person yet, but it's been fine.I've just been living my life.
Like, was he very similar to that?Or was he like, no, I had a long term relationship.Like it was really terrible.
Like, you know, he had a long term relationship and it was four years and then they broke up when he had just started business school. And then he was single for six years.And he was literally just like living his best life.
What was Dave's situation when you met?
Very similar.He was in a relationship for a year and a half, two years.He said it never really got that serious.Like never moved in together.And they broke up when she brought up
moving in together because he was like, this is just, you know, he didn't see it long term.Yeah.He was like, there was nothing wrong with her, but I just kind of felt like this wasn't it.
And then he was single for four and a half years, dating, you know, trying to date, but just never because, again, I think men are raised differently.They're not like, hey, I have to be with somebody in order to feel valuable.
So he wasn't in a rush, even though he was 34 when I met him.And so I'm sure he was like, my parents had kind of given up on me because they're from a different era.They don't realize 34 in New York City is like 25 for a man.
So it was a very similar situation.Yeah, that's really interesting.
During him being single for the six years, he would go out on dates with girls and like sometimes they'd be good dates and then he would never ask them on a second date.
And I knew that because I knew some of his girlfriends and like they would tell me this. because I actually knew Steven from back in the day because he went to high school with one of my best friends from college.So I had heard this about him.
And then I did this thing, which I feel like you'll totally love, where when someone told, like, when the mutual girlfriend told me that, I was like, oh shit, like, you know, that's really scary to hear, right?
Because you hear that and you're like, what if we go on this great first date and then- I never hear from him.I never hear from him again.And I'm just one of these- Which happens all the time in New York City.
And I'm just one of these girls that he doesn't see.
So right before our first date, because I had like forced him to come to one of my mixers and we were flirting at the mixer, I said to him, instead of being like, I heard you never ask girls on a second date, I said, listen to this reframe.Gosh.
I said like, I'm going to mess it up.But it was basically the switch of like, I heard that you never get second dates. Or something like that.Like basically, I heard that the girls never want to go out with you after the first date.Kind of brilliant.
So what are you doing wrong kind of thing.Yeah.I heard you've never made it to a second date.Exactly.What's wrong with you?Exactly.What do I need to know?
Exactly.Instead of being like, I heard you're not into girls after first date.It sounds so much more confident. You know, and I think that's a huge part of why we ended up together.Do you remember what he said?I think he was like, oh, who said that?
You know, like he was like upset.He was pissed.I think he even went up to the friend because she was at that event and she was like, what the fuck?And he was like, what the fuck?
Fragile male ego.That's hilarious.That's interesting.So wait, so you're Jewish, right?But you're not like, you're not extremely religious.Not extremely religious.
Is Stephen Jewish?He is, yeah. Was that important to you?No, it wasn't important at all.And basically every guy I dated before him wasn't Jewish.And it's not that I'm like mad that Steven's Jewish too.
Like, trust me, it makes my life a lot easier, right?And I always knew that my life would be easier if I ended up with someone with the same religious background as me, with any religion really.I feel like that's the case, right?
Like it's just easy if you both happen to have the same religion.And culture too.
It's not just a religion.It's like how you were raised and like not having to explain yourself almost.
And I just felt like there were like a lot of the Jewish men that I had dated were not falling under my type. And it wasn't like the fact that they were Jewish.
It was just like, you know, like they were mama's boys or like they were, we were like too similar.
Like the stereotype or something.
Exactly.Yeah.And my last relationship before Steven, he wasn't Jewish and he,
like he was a great guy, but he lacked this kind of like warmness that I felt was the cultural part of being Jewish too, like this ability to just talk, have a conversation with anyone, like to schmooze with anyone, as they say.
And when I met Steven, it was truly just a bonus that he was the same religion, but him being Jewish also And it led to a level of understanding.His family immediately felt closer to me when I met them.
I often felt like a lot of these non-Jewish families, and of course everyone's different, but the ones that, you know, my exes were in, the moms were like a little colder.There wasn't like, it just wasn't, it just didn't feel homey to me.
Well, I think what is interesting about Jewish culture, because I'm Chinese, I've always thought that Jewish and Chinese culture are very similar.Very similar.We're very family oriented, right?It's all about the family unit.
And it's kind of like you don't operate, your life doesn't operate in a vacuum.Your life operates like as a part of your family.And I just find like my Jewish friends, understand how close I am with my parents.
That's not to say, like, non-Jewish people have distant relationships.There's just a little bit more of an intergenerational connection, and so maybe that's what you were feeling.Your parents are still in the city, right?
Yeah, so it's like you probably see them more than the average 30-something.Right, and I want someone to understand that. Yeah, and they're not like, why are you always going home?Why are you always calling your mom for everything?
You know, and it's just like, this is just the way I grew up.Totally.I have girlfriends who are Asian who are like, I would never date a guy that is not from my background.How important do you think that is?
I actually don't think it's important.I have tons of friends in interfaith relationships.I actually have a friend who's Chinese and she's with, like, just, you know, your typical white guy who doesn't understand it at all.
And it did take her a long time to introduce him to her mom.Her dad passed away, but she was very hesitant about it.Her family is very traditional. And he's not even Jewish, and sometimes I feel like it's almost better when it's a Chinese person.
Yeah, because there's at least something.We were all persecuted for something at some stage.Exactly, exactly.
And you know what?It worked out, and they're getting married.And it's like a bunch of my other couple friends, like I, you know, I have two friends who are Muslim who are with Jews. It just, it's about your connection.
That's an interesting dynamic.
Very interesting.That's really, especially in this day and age.
Yeah.And you know what?It's about your dynamic, your understanding of one another, and I think at the end of the day, it's about what it's always about, where the guy has to like the girl a little bit more.
I so agree with that.I feel like because of the way we're hardwired, you know, hunter-gatherer, all that stuff, men have to feel like they can't afford to lose you in order to keep you, right?
Whereas they feel like if they feel like they can do better, they will go do better.
And I feel like I was in a lot of relationships like that, where it was like, I knew they liked me, they were into me and everything, but I always just felt like they were possibly looking for an upgrade.
And, you know, when I'm sure you met Steven, you were like, wow, this guy thinks I'm like God's gift to man. You sort of need that, you know?You need it.
Your man has to feel so lucky to have you.Right.He has to literally wake up every day and kiss the ground that you walk on because he is so grateful.And of course you should feel so lucky to have him.
Right.But he's luckier.He's luckier.
And I think – but here's the other thing is I also think that sometimes women take this because I've seen friends take this bit of advice and think, well, I should date a guy – and I did this in my early 20s – I should date a guy that will never leave me because I am so unattracted to him.
I couldn't care – No. I know, but I did that.I dated men that I was like, okay, I am almost in a way like I, you know, so out of your league that like, I know you'll never leave me.That's the guy that cheats, actually.Yes, I know.
That's the guy that is like, wow, I did this.Now I can do more.Exactly.Yes.So it's so funny.I know somebody from high school who married a guy who had, like, no family, was, like, you know, had a really, really dysfunctional family system growing up.
He was heavily obese and had struggled with his weight all through his life, and they met and got married, and she had a great family unit.They, I think, paid for his gastric bypass surgery. He lost a ton of weight.Oh God, I'm so mad already.
And then he cheated on her and left her after he lost like 150 pounds.Disgusting behavior.And like after her family adopted him into the family, he had nothing.Isn't that insane?That's horrific and that's why we do not fall for potential ladies.
Breaking the fourth wall here.
You should not fall for a guy or commit to somebody only because you feel like they're safe.One of the guys I lived with and I was like, I'm with you because I know you would never leave me.
And what had happened was, and I think this is a good piece of advice for everybody, like if I were to go back in time and tell my ex this, because he was actually a great guy, but like I should not have been in a relationship with him as long as I did.
I actually, I went on a date with this guy, my ex, like we were three dates in and I was like, I'm not feeling it. And I told him, I was like, hey, I think you're great, but I just don't – it's like friend chemistry.And he was like, totally cool.
Let's be friends.And I was 24 when I met him, so I was like, yeah, let's be friends.I no longer believe that you can be friends with somebody that you've started off dating, right?Of course.But we started being friends.
Obviously his intent was to change that friendship into more, and it did.And I feel like I let myself be convinced into being with him because he was a great guy.Because, you know, sometimes it's tough.
You're like, wait, I'm not attracted to you, but you're like such a good guy.And we talked about this on your podcast.Just because he's a good guy doesn't mean he's the right guy.And I ended up wasting a lot of our time.When you knew at day three.
Yeah, exactly.Like, I broke up with you.And the same thing for women.It's like, you know, he broke up with me, but then he kind of came back because he was bored or he couldn't find any better.
The next woman, you know, it's like, I wish I could go back in time and tell that guy, it's like, I wish you did not try and convince me to like you because you could have been spending that time finding a woman who was just over the moon for you.
Totally.And that's why I love my 90-10 rule, which is like 90% security, 10% insecurity.
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You need to have that.If you're 100% secure, not 100% secure, but 100% positive that this guy's never going to get anyone else, never going to leave you, always going to be on the couch, terrible.
Well, here's the thing, it's like you are so, for those of you who don't know, Lindsay just had a baby, and you're a mom now.
And like, I have heard that from all my mom friends, like, shit gets real and unromantic when you bring a child into the picture.Like, marriage actually doesn't change that much.We got married and I was like, it was just a piece of paper.
Like, nothing changed.We still live our hot, sexy lives.Like, we can go out to dinner whenever we want, stay out as late as we want. How do you keep that kind of mystique alive?Because you always say you have to be forever dating your partner, right?
That's one of your, I think, gems.How do you continue dating in the midst of all this, in the midst of poopy diapers?Totally.
And it is hard.And I will say, if you are in a couple and you guys already have some issues, do not bring a baby into your relationship.Do not.Because you have to be so solid before you have a baby.It is crazy.
because it will test the shit out of your relationship.And you will like all of a sudden bicker about things that like, you know, it just happens.It's just the natural progression.
And especially in the newborn phase where we're in now, like we are in it and we're going to get out of it and we're going to be sexier again. And like we're still sexy sometimes, right?But last night was a perfect example.
We went on a date night for the first time since we started with our nanny.And it was like the first time that we were out, the two of us.And of course we're checking the monitor like most of the date.
And I'm like, are we going to be doing this every time we have a date night?Because then like why are we going on a date night?You know what I mean?Exactly. Like we were laughing and we were like, for a little bit, yeah, we are.
That's just what it is.But I think, you know, you just have to like block, not like block the baby out, like pretend they don't exist, but like when you're actually having the physical act of sex, like you cannot be thinking about your baby.
Like you have to be thinking about your partner, you know, you just have to.
And it's like presence, right?It's like how people are saying, like, be present when you're with friends or whatever.Be present with your husband.
And I think so many people take each other for granted once they get into a very comfortable relationships phase or once they get married or once they have a kid that it's like you're no longer present.
And then people like ten years that are like, why don't we talk anymore?It's because we don't know how to sit together without looking at our phones and being like, oh, what's going on?Exactly.
Yeah.Stay present with your partner.
If you can afford childcare, use that to your advantage to do things that still make you feel sexy and feel like yourself, like going to a workout class or getting a facial or your husband going to the gym or whatever it is that still makes you feel good and feel like yourself.
Do you guys have, like now that you have a nanny, I know this is all very new, so are you trying to incorporate weekly date nights on a schedule or is it more just like, let's just see how this goes? Totally.Let's just see how it goes.
I am not into the scheduled weekly date night.I think that's unsexy.And I have friends that do it, and it works for them.And there's no hate for that.If it works for you, amazing.And if it's so hard to find a night, then that's what you need.
You need to have that night, right?And it's important to you.For us, if something comes up, we'll go and like we'll run with it, but we're not scheduling those things.You're both more spontaneous.Exactly.
And especially when it comes to sex, like I cannot be scheduling that shit.Yeah.Well, here's the thing.It's like, and I wanted to talk to you about this because you've talked about this a lot, but I'm curious to talk to you one on one.
You went through IBF and I'm sure to get to that point, you were not going through IVF because you were young when you started trying to have a kid.
And so I've heard from my friends who've had babies, like when you start trying, it is incredibly unsexy because you do have to have sex on a schedule because there's basically two days a month that women can get pregnant.
And so it's like always funny.It's like, oh, you know, when people get accidentally pregnant, it's like they just happen to have sex on those two days.What was that?Did you guys like definitively start trying or were you just like, I'm
I'm just gonna get off birth control and let's see.
It's like we started being like, I'm gonna get off birth control.And then, like, very quickly, I was like, okay, like, what's, let's, like, figure this out, you know, it was a little different.
You weren't getting your period.Because I wasn't getting my period.
And so you knew kind of something was wrong.I knew something was wrong, but it was funny because every time I didn't get my period, like, that month, I was like, I'm pregnant.Like, I, like, was so delusional and, like, positive.
I was like, oh, it's just because I'm pregnant.It's not because I'm like, you know. something's wrong with me."That's so optimistic, I love that.Right?So delusionally optimistic.
And then eventually we actually ended up doing these trigger shots, which trigger ovulation, then you have to have sex in a little window.So I would literally be like, get hard, let's go.And he was like, do you realize that that's not how it works?
That is not how it works.
You're like pulling a Pornhub, like, look at this.No, fully.
Fully.I'm like, please go do something and then come back hard.Like, I cannot. This is not my problem.It's yours.Like, I'm ready.You need to be ready.And it just was so not hot.
I know, and that's so rough.
So I never want to do that again.
I know, I know.Well, I mean, it's too soon to ask about the second kid, but are you?
No, no, it's not too soon.For me, like, I'm an open book, but yeah, we definitely want another one, maybe three, God willing, that the second one works.So we'll see, but we're not, like, doing it anytime soon.
Okay.Right, right.Yeah.No, you're like, let me just keep one alive first and then figure it out.I've had girlfriends who say IVF was like fine, you know, I've had girlfriends say IVF was worse than pregnancy.
What was your whole process with that like?
My egg retrieval was, was really painful for me because I have PCOS.I had this thing called OHSS, which is like over hyper like stimulation and I had, um,
like too many eggs, but that doesn't mean like good eggs, you know, just like an over production.
Because with PCOS, it's like, it's like, that's what it is.It's it's like too much production of eggs.And so I ended up getting so like large from
that whole process that I was swollen and in a lot of pain and like could barely walk after, that was the hardest part of IVF.Everything else was fine and like standard.I was fine with the shots, like the shots on my butt were even fine.
I mean, they were annoying, but I got used to them eventually.Okay.So it was more like the side effects of like everything you were struggling with.Is the PCOS what caused your infertility?
Because I don't know too much about like, and I will at some point because Dave and I are talking about, you know, starting a family.And it's like, you don't know you have problems until you You don't.I don't know how it's going to go.
I do know I have a very, very regular period.That's great.But I also remember you saying on a podcast, you were saying that like I've been on birth control since I was like 15 because your mom was pretty like forward thinking.
So it's like you never knew.I never knew. what would have been the norm and I've never really been on birth control for a few years here and there.
That is amazing and you are in such a good setup to start a family if you want to do that and when you're ready.For me and for anyone who wants to have a family, if you don't have a regular period that is something you need to look into.
And if you don't know if you have a regular period, you should go off birth control and, you know, use protection another way for at least a few months to find out if you do.Like, that's the most important thing and my biggest piece of advice.
And I have so many women who have reached out to me being like, I never cared that my period was irregular and thank God, like, I heard your story and I went in and like, I have X, Y, and Z and now I know.Okay.
And so I feel like it's so important to just check yourself out.
Do you think, because I feel like there's like this new sort of, and it could be like a conspiracy theory, like school of thought that likes being on birth control for too long.
Because I feel like our generation of women were like the first generation to really be on birth control for like 15 years.And now we're all at the age where we're trying to get pregnant and start families.
Do you think that affects your ability to, you know, get pregnant when you want to be because your body is just so accustomed to being like a barren desert for 15 years?
Literally.I don't know if it actually does.And I had a woman come on my podcast who's a hormone expert and she said it does.And then I had a fertility doctor come on my podcast and she said it doesn't.
And so there's so much information out there and you have to take what you want with a grain of salt, whether you want to believe a doctor or a hormone expert, an endocrinologist, whatever it is.
But I personally don't think that birth control was the reason.I think that maybe it didn't help, but I think it was masking.It was just a mask.It was masking the real issue.
I think probably the real reason that so many people have PCS nowadays is whatever we put in our bodies, which I'm not stopping anytime soon.
I love you, Diet Coke, and I love you, Chicken Fingers. Well, it's the same conversation around why are so many young people getting cancer these days?Most recently, like Olivia Munn got breast cancer at 40.That's very young.
Yeah, they just changed the age that we have to check ourselves out for breast cancer.We were talking about this.I was on a brand trip in France a couple weeks ago, and I was eating fruit there, and I was like, why does this fruit taste so good?
So much better.Everything's better there. I literally, people were like, oh, what was the best thing you ate in France?Because I'd never gone, right?And I had not spent much time in Europe prior to doing this job.
And people had always talked about the food in Europe, and I was like, I don't really get it.
I was like, I feel like we have pretty good – you know, I was like, New York City has the best food in the world, which I still kind of – you know, we have great food here.But I literally was like, the best thing I ate in France was a strawberry.
And it was so small.I was like, what are these tiny strawberries?Because they haven't been genetically modified.They haven't had all these hormones pumped into them to make them, you know, not like spotty.
And I was like, this is the sweetest thing I have ever tasted.And I was like, we are dying from our food, even our dogs.You know, it's like, I am crazy.I now cook for our dog.
She does not eat any dog food other than a few like treats here and there because I think the reason why dogs have such a, especially Goldens and everything, they have such a high recurrence of cancer is because, sorry guys, I'm not trying to shame any dog moms because I realize this is like not practical for most people, but kibble is like, you know, I think the advent of these fresh food dog companies is like, because kibble, like imagine eating like burnt pellets your entire life as a human.
That's so sad. So, you know, and we're surprised that our dogs are prematurely like getting cancer at eight.I'm like, what's in kibble?Right.
No, that's a good point.And you're going to be a really good mom mom if you are someone who is already looking into that as a dog mom.I'm going to be neurotic.
It's really that's actually what I'm scared about.Like, how do you feel like?And because you've talked so openly about mental health and everything, but how do you feel
about mental health now that you're a mom, because it's not just you worrying about you.You have this thing that I assume you're like, I would give my life for you right now.Like, how is it?
I just feel like, you know, people either go one of two ways.They're like, I'm a mess all the time.Or they're like, you know what, honestly, there's so much to worry about that I just feel so zen because what am I gonna do?
Yeah, I feel very zen, honestly.Like, I feel like I've had to give up control and just be like, it's gonna be okay.And actually, it's my husband who has the anxiety when it comes to being a parent.Yeah.Really?
And was it the opposite when you guys before were parents?Like you were maybe the more anxious one.Yeah.And he was a little more chill.Yeah.
I mean, I never really, like since getting sober, I feel like my anxiety went away, which is like a whole other conversation.But I wasn't anxious, but I was definitely the more like type A control freak, like needed to be in charge.Right.
And now I'm just like, yeah, he's going to be OK.He'll be fine.You know?
mom intuition almost.Has it put everything into perspective for you?Like the things you were freaking out before and things that concerned you like maybe don't concern you as much anymore because you're like, it could be worse.
Yeah, like that.And then also you just You have a lot of once you become a mom, you understand, you know, other friends of yours who are moms, too.Right.
And like I used to not be selfish, but like not understand why someone needed to eat dinner at a certain time when we would meet up with like a couple for dinner.And now I couldn't be more understanding about it because I get it.
And sometimes you just need to go through that to get it.And I think also what I went through with like a traumatic birth situation with a C-section, that zenned me the fuck out. Because I was like, I literally went through hell.
Like I just have this perfect angel baby now.And like,
He's fine.It's a miracle.Thank God.I mean, like you went through so much to get to him and it's like you're fine now.I want to switch gears a little bit because you brought this up and I actually am four months sober now.Oh my God.Congratulations.
Thank you.And I'm so interested to talk to you about your sobriety because I think what happens a lot is women, you know, I hear so often that I can't date right now because I'm working on myself.
You know, I'm not the best version of myself that I want to be.And I need to figure out who that is before I dive into a relationship with somebody else, which sounds all fine and dandy and reasonable.
When you were getting sober, you were addicted to weed.So it wasn't so much alcohol, right?You were like, marijuana was like my Achilles heel because it was calming down your anxiety.But you gave up everything.Like, why not just give up weed?
The reason that I decided everything all at once is because it's like when you have an addictive personality or you're addicted to something and you stop it, you could transfer that addiction to something else.
So when I gave up weed, I could have kept drinking, but then I would have probably started drinking more.Or I could have like kept, I don't know,
I'm trying to think of something that I did but not that much of, like maybe taking like a Xanax every now and then.I probably like never did that, but let's say that I did that, then I would probably start doing that more.
Like I would need another crutch. And I was like, why do that?I also associated alcohol with weed and weed with alcohol.Well, they go hand in hand.Exactly.
I would never go out and drink and not smoke a joint at the end of the night to wind down and go to bed.And so I was like, why quit just one thing when none of this is serving me?Did you just go cold turkey?Cold turkey, yeah.
What did you do? Cold turkey, but I for me it was never I've never actually Like loved alcohol.Uh-huh.
I never got to a point where I ever actually enjoyed the taste of it I just loved how it made me feel because um, and I I went to nyu and like this was before fentanyl was a thing.
Thank god because I was It's not a joke, but it's like thank god fentanyl wasn't a thing when we were in college and everything because it's like I Experimented a lot.There's a lot of other things other than
alcohol and like that stuff could have killed me.But I remember I don't have an addictive personality to alcohol or drugs or anything.
I've tried a lot of very very addictive substances and it's never been like I was like okay that's fine I could take it or leave it.
So I'm lucky in that sense because they do think it is like very genetic like that is a gene sometimes that you're addicted addicted to something.
But what was happening for me was like right around Christmas, you know, everyone's drinking and there's so much going on.And I was like, I don't feel good.I feel anxious.It's like the hang anxiety the next day.I already have anxiety.I just
went on medication like a month ago and it's like changed my life.And, you know, I was like, this is just not helping at all.And so, and it's not adding to my life, like I was already married.And so I was like, let me just stop.
And I had done that before in my 20s when I was single and dating.I had gone, I went sober for like 10 months.
I wish I could say it was because like I was trying to be like the best version of me, but no, of course I dated a guy who was sober and vegan and I went sober and vegan because I was like, I don't know who I am.
Why don't I just adopt your personality?"But it actually was great.I remember our relationship did not last 10 months.
the sobriety was like the best part to come out of that relationship because they realized, oh, you can be social, you can have fun, and not be drunk off your face.
And I remember listening to one of your podcast episodes, you did your wedding sober, obviously, and you're like, I actually can't even imagine what that weekend would have looked like if I was drinking.Cannot even imagine.
I mean, I was still drinking when we got married, but I did not drink that much because there's just too much going, there's like no time almost to like get wasted at your wedding.I mean, yeah.
So it's like you've been so fully present in your life, I guess.So were you single when you first decided to quit everything cold turkey or were you in a relationship?
I was in a relationship and I definitely give credit to that partner because it was, it would have been really hard for me to get sober and be single.
And I have so much respect for anyone who does get sober when they're single because it's really hard because you really have to put dating on pause for like a year.
So that's interesting.So you would say probably like it is not necessary to be single to enact like great change in your life.No, no, never.I don't think
you shouldn't it's easier right like but it shouldn't you being single shouldn't be the only reason that you change you can change regardless.
Do you feel like because I feel like sometimes women do this they're like tired of dating and they almost use like I'm working on myself as an excuse to stop putting themselves out there because they're like you know what if I just keep working on myself
Then I have an excuse not to keep swiping because I'm just so tired.Yeah.And men do that too.And it is exactly that, an excuse.Yeah.And it's like, you know what?It's like you can become a better version of yourself while you're with somebody else.
And it's like, I feel like that all the time.Like I'm married now.That doesn't mean I just am now stagnant at 33.Right.
Exactly.You should always be working on yourself, learning and growing.And yeah, you can't just like stop.
Yeah, so you can date and you can work on yourself at the same time.Totally.Okay, so you're a huge advocate for mental health, as we've talked about.You recorded a session with a therapist.
What age did you realize that mental health was like a thing for you?Because I have girlfriends who are blessed with literally, they don't have anxiety.They think logically about everything.
I am not one of these people, and I remember when it started happening because I was a kid and I was like fairly carefree, and then the genetics like set in. So at what age were you like, something's going on?
For me, it was about 23.At 23 was when I started seeing a therapist for the first time.Right after you graduated college.Exactly.And I feel like that's when shit gets real for most people too.
Right.Was it, were you diagnosed with anything or was it just more like, I just can't handle my life right now?
Yeah, I was definitely diagnosed with depression because I had just been dumped for the first time and fired for the first time in like the same week. and I was still living with my parents.So that's a recipe for depression if I've ever heard one.
And you know what, it's so weird, I feel like the younger you are, the more you feel like you're supposed to have it together.
You're like, I'm 23, I graduated from college, I should know what the rest of my life looks like, and literally nothing is working out right now.So you're like, I'm depressed.Are you still with the same therapist?
No, I'm not, but she was wonderful for that time in my life, and she actually referred me to another therapist, and I was seeing two therapists at once. Oh.For a hot second there.Wait, why?
So she was like a psychotherapist, like a typical regular therapist, and the other therapist was for DBT, dialectical behavioral therapy. I don't even know what that is.Wait.Actually, I think it was CBT.No, but they're very similar.
Cognitive behavioral therapy.They're very similar.They're very, yes.And she suggested having an action-based therapist who gave me a plan of do these things.Because I didn't want to go on an antidepressant.I just wanted to work through it in therapy.
And so that's why she suggested CBT.And so I end up staying with my CBT therapist. ending with the original one.
And I'm still with her to this day.Oh, you're still with her.Okay.Have you experienced any?I mean, I have so many friends who have experienced a lot of hormonal stuff after having their first child.Postpartum is very real.How's that been for you?
Because you're in it right now.
So in it.I feel very lucky to not have had Like most of the postpartum symptoms, I definitely had a little rage at my husband, but that's, I don't even know if that's a postpartum thing.
You might have just been underslept, honestly.Exactly, exactly.
That was just a lack of sleep.I think a lot of things contributed to it.I think breastfeeding was helpful. I think having a baby nurse was very helpful as well.
I think most women can't afford someone to live with them and help them with their baby when they first have a child.And I feel so grateful that we were able to do that.And by the way, you can do that with your mom.
You can do that with another person that you trust and don't have to pay.But having an extra set of hands really, I think, kept me in a good headspace.And I could see how not having that person would have maybe made me spiral into a postpartum.
And I think also a really great supportive husband.I think it was like a combination of a lot of things that helped me.And now After stopping breastfeeding, I went on birth control, which I think regulated my hormones as someone with PCOS.
So I think that I'm doing all the right things, hopefully, to not experience this.But who knows?I still could, you know?Can you get it so long after?
I think you can get it up to a year postpartum.Oh, really?Okay.Well, that's great.I'm glad you're in a good place right now.And it's like, you know what?It's nice because
There are things you can do and I feel like so often women are taught that like, you know, you just have to do everything on your own and like you can if you have the means to find help, you should get help.That doesn't make you any less of a mom.
It's just like, this is what I need to stay sane.
It takes a village, people.Do not be ashamed to ask for help.
In all aspects of life.Totally. Do you feel like, because you are so career driven, do you feel like your priorities have shifted since having Zachary?
Because I think I meet people from two schools of thought where they're like, they have a kid and they're like, I love my career just as much.I love my kid more, obviously, but like, this is just going to run concurrently.
And then I have friends who I was like, they're going to like rule the world one day.And then they have a kid.They're like, you know what?I just don't care about my career anymore.
Where are you?I still very much care about my career.And I love my son, of course, more than my career.But the most fulfilling days for me are when there is a career win and like a Zachary win.Right.
And I think and like, obviously, that's not every day, of course.And that's very rare.Some days, unfortunately, there's one person.
One person's going to win or both people are going to lose.But it's really special to me to be able to support, like, to help to support my family and also have this wonderful child and hopefully more.
And I just can't imagine myself ever having the thought of like, now I'm done.You're going to work forever, you think?
Yeah.God willing.God willing.Yeah.That's awesome.And I think it's like, I think for those of us in this space,
it's so hard to get into this space too that it's like for me at least I'm like I can't imagine ever voluntarily letting it go like you're gonna have to take my career from my like cold dead hands because it's like do you know what I had to do to get here like how much rejection and we've talked about this before like
And you had no one paving the path for you.Like you were the OG like dating podcast.
So it's like, you know, I remember you saying when I came on your podcast, it was like the people in your life were like, why are you talking about your private life?And like, you probably think about that now and you're like, thank God.
Like, I don't.Do you just did you just not feel the cringe or were you like, I feel it, but I don't care.
I actually didn't feel it because it's just talking into a microphone.Like it wasn't, this was way before it was like anything was on camera too.So I was just like talking into the abyss.
I literally did not think anyone was going to be listening to it.
I guess it's also the expectation too now.It's like back then you were like, you were probably like, I just need an outlet.This is like a creative hobby.It's like a kid taking a painting.
Right.Like I didn't think anyone actually was going to listen.So I didn't really care.And then like it just got probably cringier and cringier.
Did people say stuff to you, like, in your community?Were they like, what are you doing?Or was it more just like you felt it?
No, everyone was like, oh, my God, I'm so happy that you just talked about, like, getting dumped on your birthday because I got dumped on mine.Or, oh, my God, like, you talked about having a lot of discharge.Like, I have a lot of discharge.
You know, like, just people love honesty and vulnerability.
It's like, oh, I thought I was the only one, but thank you.Exactly.Thank you.I really personally believe that, like, success and rejection are two sides of the same coin. And that if you can get through the rejection, you can find your success.
And that I know a couple instances in my life where I'm like, I'm so glad I got rejected by this man or this opportunity so that I could be here.
Do you have a moment in your life that you were like, that changed everything for me other than getting dumped that we all know about?
Oh, I'm so happy I got fired at 23 from that job.Why is that?So happy.Because if not, I would be in the music industry right now, which is so different.Wait, what kind of, what were you doing?Like publishing?I was A&R, music publishing.
Yeah, I would not be a happy camper, I don't think.
Yeah.Also, I don't know if that industry's doing, like, amazingly well.
Yeah, it's very cutthroat, too.It's very cutthroat.
Why did they fire you?Do you know?Oh, do I know?I don't even know if I'm allowed to talk about this.I've definitely – I mentioned it on my podcast before, but I fucked up a really big meeting for my boss with a major celebrity.
I probably dropped the name on my podcast, but I feel – I don't know.You don't have to.Don't worry.Yeah, a major celebrity.I sent him to Soho House instead of to his office where the meeting was.
Although, honestly, that sort of seems like not a fireable offense to me.
Oh, it was bad.I mean, the very famous celebrity was waiting for him with her mom.
But like you're 23, I don't know.I feel like people need grace.
I wouldn't hire a 23-year-old assistant who has no idea what she's doing and it's her first job out of college if my stakes were that high.
Also, what were you getting paid?It's like, were you getting paid to not make mistakes?Pennies.It's okay.I have grace and sympathy for 23-year-old Lindsay, but thank God because we all needed you here and not coordinating people's schedules in music.
Wait, have you talked to this massive celebrity since then?The massive celebrity and I never spoke, but I've spoken to the ex-boss.
I would love it if one day you have.Actually, the massive celebrity walked in on me peeing once.True story.
Ironically, at a Soho house. Life is funny like that.Life is funny.Yeah, into us all.But I only realized it was her after she walked in and I didn't obviously say anything.I wasn't going to come after her.
One of these days I would love it if you would have this unnamed massive celebrity on your podcast.I'm manifesting that, for sure.
I don't even know who this is, but I would love that because it's like, I'm so sorry I'm the reason you went to Soho House.I wonder if she'll remember that, if it was kind of an oops-enough moment where she would remember.
She would, because she still works with my ex-boss today.
Yeah.Okay.Have you had your ex boss on the podcast?
No.I probably should.You should.I probably should.He's still single.
Ooh, that's a lot to unpack.You fired me at 23.I have a family now.Okay, that's for a later episode.Thank you.
So to all the 23-year-olds out there, if you've just been fired and it was actually kind of your fault, there is hope because look at Lindsay now.She's living the dream.Thank you so, so much.Thank you so much for having me.This was so fun.
This was awesome.Thank you.
