Content warning.Today's episode contains discussion about the murder of two girls as well as topics like rape and suicide.
I want to say this was another day in the Richard Allen trial, of course.Yes.
And I'm going to say that unless the defense pulls some pretty good surprises out of their hats, unless they come up with something rip roaring that's really legally sound, I will I will
Yesterday and today would prove to be the two most important and significant days in this trial, unless that happens.So we have a lot to talk about, but I think we have some business to take care of first.
Yes.My name is Anya Kane.I'm a journalist.
And I'm Kevin Greenlee.I'm an attorney.And this is The Murder Sheet.We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.We're The Murder Sheet.
And this is The Delphi Murders, Richard Allen on trial, day 12.The phone calls.
I think we have some housekeeping to take care of before we get to it.
Absolutely.I would like to send a sincere and just very grateful thanks to Michelle Jensen, a wonderful Murder Sheet lifesaver slash line sitter who helped us out last night.Thank you so much, Michelle.
It was so nice to meet you and we just really appreciate you.
She was really delightful.I enjoyed talking with her.
And I noticed that when we were talking with her this morning before going into court, I think there was a special glint in her eye when she found out about the two-timers wing of the Murder Sheet Lifesavers.
So I have a feeling we might hear her name being thanked again sooner rather than later.
The whole thing sounds like you're starting a cult.I don't love that, but I guess I don't really have the energy to argue with you, so I guess here we go.I see a glint in your eye.
You're like, I don't know what's going on, folks, but we're just going to move along.
I also wanted to quickly mention something else.You know, in life, you always tend to notice the people who can do things you can't do.
And, you know, certainly there have been a couple of occasions during our coverage of the trial where we've had to stand in line all night.Now, thanks to the lifesavers, we don't have to do that.But I still look like I've stood in line all night.
If you just run into me somewhere, I look like I've stood in line all night.
There was one occasion when we did have some lifesavers, and I arrived looking, I thought, really refreshed, and a veteran Indianapolis journalist, a trained observer, said, Kevin, you look like you've slept on a park bench.
I think you look very cute.
So I always look kind of rumpled, and so I've always been impressed. The security personnel inside the courtroom, these are the people who are protecting Richard Allen.They're protecting all of us in the courtroom.
A very important, crucial job, and I imagine a very high-pressure job.And despite this, they have immaculate haircuts, and they're wearing great suits.They look like a million dollars all the time. I can never look that good.
And then on top of that, today is Halloween.And for those of us who have been in this courtroom, we're working so hard, we kind of forget about the outside world and things like Halloween.
And the security personnel, they did something really kind of nice and subtle that it took you a few minutes to notice.But for today, all of them were wearing orange shirts with their suits.
Yeah, I really like that.Very festive.
So they're protecting us, they're giving us a reason to smile, and they look great doing it.
And then I think Bodhi the bailiff had a bright orange tie on.So like, I was kind of like, wow, everyone's doing a lot of orange today.And then I was like, oh my gosh, holiday.So this is kind of a nice, nice thing.
And those fellows are all, you know, they're very nice.And I think them and the bailiffs and certainly the deputies that we kind of have to interact with as we go in, you know, they're all doing their jobs.
And I think they can be seem a little intimidating, but I've enjoyed saying hi to them and they seem like very nice people.So shout out to them.
They don't really seem like very nice people.They are very nice.
Well, yeah, they are very nice people.I'm just I'm sorry.I'm just I'm just tired.But I think it just it's something that, you know, I think a lot of people get like, oh, my gosh, they're going to yell at us.
But, you know, they really only yell at people when they're not doing what they're supposed to be doing.And generally, they're just kind of there to make sure that nobody's rushing up to the jury or, you know, they're trying to coordinate everyone.
And I just appreciate them.
Yes, they're all great.And of course, also protecting our Richard Allen, of course.
So we had our little bit of housekeeping and Judge Gold and the attorneys in the case, they had some housekeeping to take care of before they got down to business.So the day started with some of that.
Prosecutor Nick McClellan talked about an affidavit from Don Stevens that he wanted admitted into evidence and It was not on the exhibit list, but the defense has had this affidavit.I'm not really sure where this Don Stevens affidavit concerns.
I have no idea.I was so confused.But, you know, I guess that's part of the course.And then there were a number of photos of Richard Allen.
Yeah, so apparently when they did the extraction of Richard Allen's phone, they extracted four pictures of Richard Allen, and there's no dates attached to them, but it's believed that these pictures, obviously since they showed him not in prison,
These pictures were taken prior to his arrest, so the prosecution indicated they'd want them to be admitted so the jury would see what Richard Allen looked like at the time he was arrested.
And the defense had some concerns because we don't even know what day or in time these pictures were taken and we can't date them.
Right.So they were they were talking about basically they said that Christopher Cecil of the Indiana State Police, of course, he's sort of their I guess their technology expert in general.
He said that he could eventually get the dates, but not in time for our purposes here.So that was that was something that was mentioned.
And then we started to get into more of the substance of what the day would be about.
Prosecutor McClellan discussed the fact that he would be playing some phone calls that Richard Allen made while he was incarcerated, both to his mother and to his wife.
And the defense was upset because a couple of those phone calls that they would be playing today were made on the same day as an earlier phone call that Richard Allen made to his, I believe, his mother?
Mother and a stepfather, so Janice and Marvin Allen.
And the defense argued that this earlier call needed to be played to give proper context, because apparently in this earlier call, Richard Allen said something to the effect of, oh, I don't know how much longer I can be lucid.And so they took this.
Is Richard Allen basically predicting, oh, pretty soon I'm going to go crazy and start saying wild things?
You know, like a psychotic person does.Not really.I'm being sarcastic here, obviously.
Yeah, it's difficult to imagine a situation where a person predicts, oh, I'm going to lose lucidity soon, so don't be paying attention to what I have to say.
And so they argued, if you're going to play those other calls, you need to play this call, too, to have a complete record.And McClellan said, well, what needs to be complete is each individual call.We're not editing the calls.
We're going to play each call starting from the time it is made. and ending at the time the call ends.We don't necessarily have to play every single call.
And he said, if you take this argument from the defense seriously, you'd have to literally play every single phone call Richard Allen ever made while he was incarcerated.And Gull seemed very receptive to that argument.
She told defense attorney Rosie, you know, your argument would be better if the prosecution were playing incomplete calls, but they're not. But she did compliment him a bit in a backhanded way because she referred to his argument as a novel argument.
Isn't that basically lawyer or judge speak for that's stupid but creative?
Yeah, so it's kind of a backhanded compliment.
Yeah, like good try.His argument seemed like totally just ridiculous to me personally.
But I mean, I can understand why they made it, because it sounds like that first call from that night was a lot more favorable to Richard Allen, where he's, you know, saying, you know, he's not saying incriminating things at that point.
But it's it's it just sort of it's not like they're It's not like McClelland and his team are splicing out comments from the calls and saying, like, I did it.And then it turns out he's saying, well, I don't think I did, but maybe I did it.
It just seemed ridiculous.
So I want to say, Anya, of course, this particular discussion took place outside the presence of the jury, so it didn't affect them.
But I think it affected me a bit because when he was talking about Richard Allen was predicting he's going to lose lucidity before he makes these other calls,
I was expecting when we heard these other calls that Richard Allen would sound ranty and kind of crazy and what have you.Is that what your expectation was?
That is what my expectation was.And I was thinking about that with Rosie's comments in mind, like, wow, he's saying he's going to lose lucidity.
Now, again, that doesn't really sound like something that a person actually dealing with psychosis would necessarily say.But I don't know.
Let's let's give them the benefit of the doubt and say it is so I would expect something where someone's all over the place and really disorganized in their thinking perhaps and very much, you know, like maybe highly emotional maybe kind of ranting maybe this or that or Or maybe not even that maybe just like kind of all over the place, right?
Like, you know, like your jump you're happy one minute sad, you know, I was expecting something a bit different than
Now, without getting into the substance of these calls, which we'll get to in a few moments, what did we get in terms of his tone?
I would say in one, he was crying.So that was something we can discuss separately.In most of these, I would describe him as calm, maybe a bit somber, a bit muted, but calm and Somebody who was almost just having a conversation.
They were very I was struck by how conversational they were So it would be something like this and we'll read more quotes and whatnot, but I you know, Kevin I committed a murder tell everyone I love them and thanks for sending the birthday card, you know, like exactly not like, you know, not
Not like ranting, not raving, not just kind of like, I want you to know I did this.I'm trying to tell you that.You're not really listening.But, you know, oh, it was really great to hear from you.
Like having almost a normal conversation just about something really abnormal.So it really wasn't what I was expecting.
Yeah, I'm on that page too.And we'll talk about the substance in a second, but another thing I wanted to mention is yesterday we talked about the, or whenever it was, we talked about the interviews he did with police.
And we had a lot of disclaimers about voice analysis and all of this, but we said to us, especially in the interview he did with Carroll County investigators, he sounded like bridge guy.
In these calls, all of the previous disclaimers obviously still apply.
But I mean, let's talk about the sound of his voice.
The disclaimers being, it's just our opinion and you don't have to agree.And we're, these are bad audio in terms of what was on Liberty's phone is kind of, it's only a few words and you can't determine from anything from that.But that being said,
This was the voice of bridge guy.
Yeah.I'm sorry.I can't unhear.I can't unhear it.I can't unhear it.It's it's it's it's it's striking.It's.Yeah.I don't know what to say in these videos and these tapes I should say in these tapes.I was gobsmacked.
to the point where there's an opening in each one because it's on a recorded line from a prison where they talk about like you have a call from Ricky and that just him saying Ricky alone.I just I got chills like it.
Yeah, I was shocked by how similar it sounded to the recording of Bridge Guy.Our wonderful sponsor, Via Hemp, is offering our listeners a terrific, affordable deal on premium hemp products, just in time for the holidays.
If you're 21 and up, treat yourself to 15% off with our exclusive code, msheet, at viahemp.com.That's V-I-I-A H-E-M-P.com.
Via Hemp has served over half a million customers, delivering on USA Farmed lab-tested and certified hemp products that can fit easily into your budget.
They craft gummies, vapes, topicals, and drops that fit each mood and goal, from relaxing to getting productive to catching better sleep.
If you're looking for premium hemp THC gummies, they've got products ranging from zero milligrams to 100 milligrams.You can microdose or really dive in.
And if THC is not your thing, they've got a lot of terrific zero THC products that can help with energy, focus, and sleep.
For instance, Viya's Grapefruit Flowstate Gummies have CBG and CBD in them.They're THC-free.I really dig them because they help me get creative and productive.
I was able to work hard without getting super stressed about it, and I feel so accomplished at the end of the day.
This holiday season, gift yourself some peace of mind.If you're over 21, head to viahemp.com and use the code MSHEET to receive 15% off.That's V-I-I-A hemp.com and use code MSHEET at checkout.Please support our show and tell them we sent you.
Enhance your every day with Viya.This holiday season, enhance your every day with Viya. Let's talk about one sponsor we are really excited about, The Silver Linings Handbook with Jason Blair.
If you've listened to our show, you've heard from Jason.He's always got excellent insights on true crime.Well, he's also got a wonderful weekly podcast that's all about fascinating conversations with inspiring people.
The thing about Jason is that he is one of the most compassionate and interesting people we know, which definitely helps him out on the interviewing front.
Listening to the Silver Lannings handbook feels like sitting around a campfire with interesting storytellers.You get into topics like the criminal justice system, spirituality, and mental health.
And the big through line is it's all thoughtful and human-centric.
We've so enjoyed getting to go on the Silver Linings Handbook to talk about true crime.Jason always makes us believe in the bright side of true crime, and I always end up endlessly quoting him afterwards.
These talks are just so engaging, as well as being completely unscripted and authentic.
Jason is a person whose experiences with loss and failure have helped him rebuild and shape into the empathetic, kind person we know and love.
And that is ultimately what The Silver Linings Handbook is all about, growing together, understanding one another, and moving forward with greater compassion.
Subscribe to The Silver Linings Handbook wherever you listen to podcasts.
Yeah, it was shocking.It was shocking.Even more so than in the interviews we watched the other day.
I think he sounded very, very similar to Bridge Guy in the Carroll County one.In the ISP one, it seemed to be a better recording system and he didn't sound as similar to me.There were glimpses of it, but it wasn't as similar.
But on these calls, he sounds very much like Bridge Guy.Like chillingly, disturbingly so.
Yes.And I looked around and there were people in the audience who were gobsmacked.
It was.It was.Yeah.So when to get those two things out there.
That's not evidence.It's not evidence.They're not going to be bringing in, you know, voice analysts.That's just not going to happen.But it's something that we are noting and we are allowed to say because we are observers here and it is our opinion.
Yes, and that's not based on any scientific analysis, because again... We are human beings with ears.
That's all it's based on.
And people who do voice analysis would say you need a lot more words than guys down the hill.
It is just our subjective opinion, but it is based on... We both have listened to the guys down the hill thing many, many, many, many times.
As have all of you, I'm sure.
As have all of you, I'm sure.And I will tell you that in my opinion, this sounded exactly like Bridge Guy.
And I would say that is also my opinion.Yes.To make that clear, it's not just Anya, it's also me.
Well, so shall we go through Master Trooper Brian Harshman's testimony?
Yes, so the person who was to be introducing this material is Master Trooper Brian Harchman of the Indiana State Police.
He was presented for the prosecution by Prosecutor Nick McCleland, and he discussed how after Richard Allen was arrested, he began having lots of outside communications, as people in that situation do.
You can have telephone calls, you can do video chats, sometimes you can send texts, and all of these are monitored.
In fact, jumping ahead just a little bit, I can tell you that in every single recording we heard today of a phone call, there was a voice at the beginning of the call saying, this call is being monitored.
So he, Richard Allen's been making a lot of calls.In fact, Harshman said that he's made, I think, about 700 calls.And Brian Harshman, it has fallen to him to be the phone guy.
Yeah, he called himself the phone guy.And he joined the Delphi investigation in April 2020. He said, quote, it became evident pretty quickly that there was a large volume of communications to his family and to others, end quote.
And then also, quote, I sort of anointed myself as the person who would keep track of his communications, end quote.
So in other words, he is listening to every call Richard Allen makes.
He said that about like most of them were 30 minutes, about some were less than five and some were between five and 30.But he said 30 minutes was kind of more of where these were around.
He said he's listened to every single call, and at some point he also went through and re-listened to all of them, and there are some calls that he listened to multiple times, and all told, he says he has spent hundreds of hours on this endeavor.
And he said in these calls, Richard Allen has made a number of confessions and incriminating statements.
You want to go over these calls as they came up?
Let's go over the calls.The first call is this November 14th, 2022.Is that what you have in your notes?
Yeah.To his wife, Kathy Allen.And this one for me, I'm struggling because I wrote it down.Some people heard one thing, other people heard others.
This was difficult to follow in fairness because Richard Allen and I believe Kathy Allen in this one were crying.Is that, is that fair to say?
Yes, they were both weeping.This isn't too long after the arrest.The arrest was, what, October 26th?This is November 14th, so a little over two weeks later.Two and a half weeks.
So the debate is about whether, so I guess, well, why don't we read what we have and then we'll talk about where the debate came in?Because I'm going to, frustratingly, my handwriting is very bad and I cannot read the last word that I wrote.
And that's kind of where it all comes down to.So do you want to go over the quote?
Do you want to just start with that quote and then we're going to cover the rest of the call?
So quote, if this becomes too much for you, call the detectives and I'll tell them anything they want to either know or hear.So that one little word changes the context quite a bit, doesn't it?
So if you say if they tell them they want to hear, then you could say basically, well, he might falsely confess to something he didn't do because that's what they want to hear.If it's what they want to know, then
Maybe you have information that they want to know, and you're going to be giving that to them.To me, I'm just going to say my impression of that call was perhaps more ambivalent.I think it just sounded like some upset people talking.
And I could see it being kind of in the category of things like, you're depressed because this happened, and you don't want your family to be dealing with this anymore.So you're almost like, well, maybe I'll just give up.
And to me, the debate about the word there Yeah, I think that's important to know.And I'd love to get that cleared up at some point.But it's one of those things where I'm not quite.
You know, it was just kind of like if that if that was alone, I'd be like, well, it's kind of ambiguous.I don't know.What did you think?
Yeah, I had in my notes, tell them what I know.Okay.
So you had no, some people had here, but I think.
Yeah, so I don't know what to think.Different people heard different things.I'm not a thousand percent positive, so I wouldn't go to the wall on that.This is, as you've said, this is not one of the most more damaging phone calls.
No, but it, you know, I mean, it kind of gets us started.And it also gives us a baseline of how he sounds when he's really upset.
Yes. I want to read some of the other things he said in this call.Again, he's talking to his wife, Kathy.He says, I love you so much.I don't want you to worry about me.All I do is worry about you.Kathy says, you need to hang in there, okay?
He's crying.He says, let everyone know how much I love them.I'm sorry, I'm sorry. He, uh, I can't help you.I can't tell you things to make you feel better.I'm sorry, baby.I'm sorry, baby.Just one more thing.I fucked up for you.Uh, I love you so much.
I wish I could see you, baby.I'll see you in the next life.All right.Take care of the family.Is that what was in your notes?
Yeah, I also have something about he's they're talking about moving him and is like somebody she said something about I again this is hard to hear but something about maybe she was really difficult to understand she is also crying something that they don't want you to move.
And he's like, no.And he's she says, they're afraid for you.And then I thought it was weird this moment.He had like he had been crying.He sounded very upset.But he suddenly kind of took on a very flat, more calm affect and just said, OK.
So that was kind of I mean, that was the only thing that stood out to me.But of course, you know, when you're in a conversation, things are shifting, whatever.I definitely felt again, this one was more ambiguous.
And it seemed like even if he said something to the effect of, you know, something like, I'll tell them what they want to know, it just was one of those ones I was kind of like, there was a lot of crosstalk, a lot of back and forth, a lot of crying.
It was just a little bit more ambiguous.
The next conversation was on April 2nd, 2023.This is a conversation between Richard Allen and his mother, Janice.I had a little bit easier time understanding this one, and I tried to write as quickly as I could, which may not be fast enough.
Do you want me to read my notes, or do you want to start with your notes?
Generally, it was a talk about religion.
Yeah, jump in if I miss anything.Richard Allen says to his mother, good morning.I've been trying to get a hold of Kathy.Of course, this is his wife.I was curious to see if I could get through to you.
Janice responds by making a comment about how the weather has been bad.There's been a lot of bad storms.I think she's suggesting maybe that has something to do with the phone issues.Richard Allen says, well, we had some hail here.
If you talk to Kathy, tell her, I'm okay.Are you going to church?Janice says, my friend and I started going after I wrecked my van.
She talks about to a church in Peru, Indiana.
Yeah, she's going to church that long.Yes, going to a church in Peru.Richard Allen starts crying.He says, that's good to hear.And Janice says, yeah, I wouldn't make it through this without church and religion.
And Richard Allen says, did Kathy tell you I accepted the Lord Jesus as my savior?When he does that, he quickly turns off the crying.
And she says, oh, that's so wonderful.And she said, God's really been important to me.God's really important to me now.
And when Richard Allen shrugs off his crying, he says, I will try to get hold of Kathy before I go to sleep.He says, I've got a family that's always going to love me no matter what.
We're all going to be back together eventually, maybe when we're together in heaven.
And you were just paraphrasing for this, because I think some of my quotes are a little bit different, but I think you're kind of reading more of a paraphrase, just to clarify, right?
I have them in quotation marks, but maybe I am just paraphrasing.
Yeah, I think you're paraphrasing a little bit.I think, you know, there's like, he says, God's really important to me right now.I thought that was kind of an interesting thing.I think, how was his affect to you before he, you know,
I guess to me- He talks about a Bible that Kathy sent him, and he indicates some sort of confusion about it because he says, the Bible she got me doesn't even say Holy Bible on the front.On the front, it just says the message.
Dr. Frank gave her that Bible.I wanted her to thank Dr. Frank for saving my life by giving her the Bible, and he is crying. and Janice says something like she was trying to see if one of the lawyers could get that to you.
She says she loves him, and Richard Allen says, love you too, muff.What did you want to talk about?
Yeah, to me, I wanted to, no, you nailed that at the end.That was what I had exactly in my notes with the Dr. Frank element.There's a whole thing in here where when they're talking about the weather, Janice is mentioning tornadoes.
It is the most casual thing.I feel like I've been part of those conversations where you're just kind of like, oh yeah, we had hail.Oh yeah, we had some tornadoes down here.Crazy storm, right?Yeah.I mean, it was so casual. Janice sounds so normal.
And then Alan himself, it's like you.I feel like to a certain degree, if you were listening in on this and you had no idea the context, you just think it was a mother and son sort of catching up for a minute.Is that fair to say?
Yeah, it was.It was bizarre.
His his he goes through mood shifts on these calls seemingly very quickly.And, you know, that's not mean some people that's just the way they are.But he'll be talking and then suddenly he'll be crying.
It seemed to mean a lot to him about the religious angle coming up.And he was really struck by the fact that she was going to church and seemed really happy about it.Like they all need God.And that really resonated with him seemingly.
And this kind of fits in with the timeline of him becoming more interested in religion around March 21st, 2023.And I feel like, yeah, you could definitely hear that in his voice that that's that's hitting for him.
And that he's connecting with his wife, seemingly, who's sending him a Bible and his mother, who's going to church now.
I remember he talked about, like, and I think in Dr. Walla's testimony, she said that he said his parents were not churchgoers as he grew up.And so it's like,
This is something the Allens are connecting over now, seemingly in this phone calls, the kind of turning to faith, turning to religion.And he seems to be kind of in the center of that.
One thing they don't connect on is he seems to want to make incriminating statements to unburden himself, and they are not interested in hearing it.Let's talk about a call that exemplifies this.
This is a call from April 3rd, 2023, a call from Richard Allen to his wife, Kathy. This is the gist of it.Richard Allen says to his wife, I want to apologize to you.I did it.You know I did it.I killed Abby and Libby.She says, you didn't?
He says, yes, I did.I don't know why.She says, no, you didn't.You're not feeling well.They've messed up your meds.He says, maybe I did it.I think I did it.She says, no, you didn't. She said, is there a way to talk to dad?
She says, there's something wrong.They're screwing with you there.I know you didn't.He says, I think I did.She says, no, you didn't.Why would you say that?They're screwing with you.He says, I want to apologize to the families.
And at this point, she's crying so much, it's hard to understand, at least for me.So that's all I got.How does that compare with your?
I had all of that, except I had, is there a way to, I thought they said Brad instead of dad.
OK, that makes more sense.Brad the lawyer, Brad Rosie.Is there a way to talk to Brad?
Yeah, way to talk to Brad.And he then he goes on.I think I did.And, you know, it's again, I'm not I'm not really hearing what she's saying in response, but like because I did it, it's what he's saying.
And she she she starts telling him, just don't talk anymore.And I don't know whether she hung up at a certain point, but the call ends sort of abruptly. And yeah.
So this is where we see the start of sort of him telling this to his family and getting their reactions to the information he is providing them.
Yes.And as you said, this may be slightly paraphrased because these calls are happening and we're just trying to write down as much of it as we can.
Yeah.If we don't get this perfect, we're really sorry.We're trying to just give you, but mostly they're hopefully, you know, you can keep that in mind.But hopefully they're mostly just important because.
You're getting the gist of it and we tried to write as exact notes as possible but sometimes Kevin will have something different some things I'll have something different and It's a little bit hard to determine who's correct without seeing the transcript in front of us, right?
Which we don't have in this case where I thought I heard the word dad and Anya heard Brad.She's almost certainly correct
And there's also a bunch of stuff where I have it and Kevin's like, no, that's not what I heard.And I'm like, oh, wait, that makes more sense.So we're just, you know, we're trying to work together.It's actually nice.
Some of the folks in the audience will kind of pool together at times and we'll all be like, OK, did you hear this?Was I totally off base?And that's kind of helpful.But, you know, can't do that for Nestle, every single word.
So the next one was May 10th, 2023.And this was another
This is a call to Kathy Allen from Richard Allen.She says, hello, are you there?It's good to hear your voice.
She says she's supposed to be meeting Brad Rosey at a gas station to find something.
And then Richard Allen replies, are you OK?She says, yeah. what's going on.He says, I think maybe I've lost my mind.She says, we've all lost our minds at this point.And Richard Allen says, so I can trust Baldwin and Rosie?
She says, yes, they're your lawyers.She says, and then Richard Allen says, I need to tell you something. And Kathy Allen's like, are you sure you want to do that over the phone?And Richard Allen says, I need you to know I did this.
And Kathy Allen says, what?No, there's no way.Richard Allen says, do you still love me?Kathy Allen says, I still love you, but you haven't done anything. Richard Allen says, I'm definitely going to lose my mind now.
Kathy Allen says, I'm supposed to be meeting Brad.Richard Allen says, I'm just trying to be at peace with this.I had a dream, I need to let you go, and I have to let you know I did it.She says, you didn't, there's no way, there's no way.
And I said, don't be talking about negative things And then I kind of can't read my own handwriting.And then, yeah.But I, that thing about I want to let you know I did this.
And... What do you think about the relationship between him?It's bizarre, frankly.Between him and his wife.
I mean, listen, we don't know inside their marriage.We don't know them as people. even when you do know a couple, it can be hard to decipher inside of a marriage because there's a lot of unique nuances there.
So, I mean, I'm not going to weigh in too much, but we're only getting a glimpse of the iceberg here.The iceberg is weird and the iceberg is strange.There's an odd dynamic at play here.
I felt like when we saw the tape of the interview he did with Holman, you know, he was very, outwardly sort of the dominant one in a way, because he's basically telling her what to think.I know you know I didn't do this.
It felt like a very manipulative conversation, if I'm being totally honest.Like, it wasn't like a lot of, hey, do you have questions?I'll explain it to you.It was a lot of like, here's what you're going to do.You know, you know me.
You know I wouldn't do this.It was just like, I don't know.It just it struck me as odd.I think it struck a couple other people who saw it as odd.But, you know, it's an odd situation for a couple to be in.So I kind of get it on some level.
Um, with this, there also seems to be, as we're going to talk about, I think, kind of a different power plays and manipulativeness going on, um, on both sides almost, I would say, because she's really trying to get him to shut up and he's really trying to get her to accept what he's saying, which is that he did this.
It's important to him, or at least it seems important to him, that she understand that he did this terrible thing and that she still loves him.
He wants to know, will you still love me even if I'm a child murderer?And what she keeps on basically saying is refusing to accept that premise.So it's like, but that makes him more agitated because he wants to know, no, no, no.Like,
I think he wants more than just a profession of love.He wants unconditional love.
And I think in my notes, when I say, like, he says, I did this, and she says, no, you didn't, she actually says it several times, like, no, you didn't, no, you didn't, no, you didn't.And that's like the extent of the reply.
And it's almost like a conversation.I don't mean this to be insulting, but it's almost like a conversation with a toddler.This is not a reasoned discussion.She's just saying, no, you didn't, no, you didn't, no, you didn't.
And what I don't understand is, like, I get that she's trying to get him not to talk, but, like, hang up, you know what I mean?That would be a way to deal with it.
And it seems like she may have in a few instances, but the damage had already been done at that point.But yeah, it's not a reasoned conversation.It's like, it's kind of like plugging your ears and saying, like, I can't hear you almost.
you know, the he he's not he in the same time.He's not offering any specifics of the crimes here.These are you know, he's just saying I did it.
I want you to like he's just trying to convince her almost so she could accept that she's refusing to accept that and in fact, she's also giving him sort of an out and this will go over this more even later because it comes up again and again, but one thing that she and later Janice Allen pick up on
is no, the only reason you're even saying that is because they're messing with your meds, they're messing with your food.And I was just really curious, where'd they get that from?
That's a good question.Speculate amongst yourselves.
And I also want to give, to be completely fair to Kathy Allen, when she's saying, don't be saying these things, it's actually pretty decent advice because surely by this point, Baldwin and Rosie have let her know that all of these phone calls are being recorded.
And so she must know that anything he says that is of an incriminating nature is going to be heard by law enforcement and might end up being played in court someday, as, of course, it was today.
I mean, she's trying to protect her husband.You know, she's basically trying to shut him down before he hurts himself with these statements.But he is insistent.
And in a way, in a way, it almost felt like a reverse of the sort of the interview that we saw that Alan did with Jerry Holman.You know, Holman sort of using
anger or kind of pushing him rhetorically as a tool in order to kind of elicit a reaction as a detective.That's what he's trained to do.
And in this, it's almost like Kathy Allen is trying to almost convince him to stop talking and to accept the fact that he's being brainwashed or drugged or whatnot. You know, but she's instead of anger.
She's she's um, she's kind of confronting him with her emotions, which is sadness upset Grief to a certain extent so it but she's definitely pushing him hard frankly to to drop it Stop doing this and just accept that he's an innocent man He's very calm.
He's has this, you know, normal flat affect where he's kind of like I gotta tell you this, it's serious, it's solemn, but he's trying to push her in the opposite direction of like, can you hear me out?I did this, let's talk about it almost.
And I feel, not to make light of this, but I feel there's been more emotion in my voice when I tell you, oh, I forgot to take the frozen duck out for dinner and so we won't be able to eat it.He just seems very, very calm.
Yeah, I it's hard to it's and she's very emotional.I mean which which would which is more Understandable given the circumstances.It's it's very odd.
Their whole dynamic is is a bit strange because I don't know like I feel like It's it's interesting that she double down so much.But, you know, I mean, it's like anything.
If you feel you know somebody and you feel like you know that they're not capable of something, I think it can be very difficult to hear anything else, even when they are telling that to you.
Let's do the next phone call from May 10th, 2023.Again, this is Richard Allen and Kathy Allen.Richard Allen says, hey, it's me.I need to know if you still love me.She says, yes, dear.
He says, and everyone else will as well, honey, because I may have to spend the rest of my life here.She's crying.Richard Allen says, I just got to know that everyone is still going to love me. She continues to cry.
He says, I must have missed something there.
I wrote down, he is so flat.And I underlined it.His voice was so flat here.And then he starts saying, it's true.
It's true, honey.And she says, no, it's not.
I just hope you still love me, he says.If I get the electric chair or the death penalty, she says it's not going to happen.
I thought she said, I'm not gonna let that happen.
And he says, if it does, if it does happen, will you be there for me?She's crying, and Richard Allen says, it's okay, honey, I did it, I did it.She's crying.Richard Allen says, I killed Abby and Libby.And she says, no, you didn't, stop saying it.
Richard Allen says, I know I should let you go.She says, we're going to be back together. Uh, he says, uh, love me no matter what.Will you always love me?And, uh, I guess that's all I have.
She said, she said, quote, please stop talking.And then the call ended abruptly.She also said in there, I think she, he, I think he said at one point, I cannot stop.
I don't know whether he was referring to like killing kids or, you know, talking or whatever.And.
She said at one point this isn't right Yeah, this is like one thing I noticed about the calls is that in the beginning, you know, they were much more Like the first one was was rough because they're crying together But then like the first one is like, you know starts out normal and sort of devolves But she sounds like excited to hear from him and whatever but over time you can tell her affect has changed because it's more
reserved even fearful because it's like She's probably been briefed by the attorneys that these calls could really hurt him and she's getting these calls and it's like what do you do?
do you screen your incarcerated husband's call and Leave him alone, or do you take it and risk him?damaging his case even further that seems to be a calculus that has kind of I
been going on here to a certain extent, and she gets very, very upset when he's saying these things.But the call still endures long enough for him to say them, so the damage is done.
Yes.The next call was supposed to be a May 17, 2023 call between Richard Allen and his mother, Janice.The prosecution, for whatever reason, has been plagued with technical problems.Oh, yeah.
This has been the biggest problem for the prosecution, the state side.
They started playing what was supposed to be a call between Richard Allen and his mother, and it was Richard Allen and his wife talking about whether or not it'd be okay for her to get rid of some of his golf clubs.
And Prosecutor McClelland said, oh, a mistake has been made.He took responsibility for it.And he said, we'll figure it out.But in the meantime, let's go on to the next call.
which was June 5th, 2023, and this one was to Kathy Allen again.
And it started out with some very kind of bland small talk.If I understood it correctly, it seemed as if someone had put some money in Richard Allen's commissary account and he wasn't sure who did it.
I know he certainly has a rabid online fan base, for lack of a better word.I wouldn't be, it's not terribly shocking that when those people did that.And she was encouraging him to like use it to get like snacks or something.
To get coffee.She said, we need to get you coffee almost.I don't know if that's a lot impressive, but she also, he kind of expressed some skepticism, like I'll do it even though I don't know where this is coming from.
Like, you know, kind of concerned about that.
She says, Lord, what a mess.He says, I feel like I've lost my mind and gone to hell.Kathy Allen says, well, we're kind of living that right now.And then he just abruptly says, you know that I done it, right?
And Kathy Allen says, I don't want to talk about that.I want to have a good conversation. He says something about being in a frustrating spot right now.Nobody will talk to me or be honest with me.
They're probably afraid they'll hurt my feelings or something, is what I have.Is that what you have?
Yeah, I just don't feel like anybody's gonna be honest with me anymore.I don't have the frustrated part, but I wrote down frustrated, but I don't have anything else.But yeah, I mean, like, yeah.
you get the sense that people are not necessarily talking to him as much as they once were.Over concerns as to what happened in the previous calls, I imagine.
Yeah, that's just speculation on our part.
Obviously, but it's like... And then they talk a bit about getting a chaplain.The chaplain is helping him to... She kind of indicates that religion still could be helpful.Did he say something like...
Was he almost questioning her about the Holy Bible?There was some, alluding back to the conversation with his mother, Janice, it was like he didn't believe it was a Bible at first, because it just said the message.
And then I thought he almost apologized here for asking so many questions about that, for questioning her about it.
For whatever reason, that's not in my notes.
Yeah, I could be wrong.There was some discussion of questions about the Holy Bible.And yeah, it's interesting that she says she just wants to have a positive conversation with him. Because before, she was like, this is negative.I don't know.
What do you think about their dynamic?I gave you my opinion.
It's really, really unhealthy and not good.
Well, I guess you're more blunt than I am today.
You hate to judge other people's relationships.You hate to judge marriages that you're not in.
As I've said, if you listen to this program or our sister program, Mystery to Me, you might jump to some sort of conclusions about our relationship that may or may not be true.You really cannot understand a relationship unless you're a part of it.
But with all of those disclaimers stated, I'll also add that I'm not a marriage therapist.I have not studied that.I'm not a therapist of any kind.
Well, you sound like you're doing foundational questions on the stand.
But with all of that, just based on my experience as a human being who's lived many more years than I care to admit to, this seems deeply unhealthy.
I'm just going to say this, and this is something that, again, I only say this as a recovering alcoholic myself, but one thing that you can get in substance abuse situations is people enabling others.
And yeah, I have some questions about sort of their dynamic after hearing this.It just, I guess like for me personally, maybe I'm just a curious person.
I mean, I would be devastated if you were accused of some horrific crime or I imagine anyone would be if the spouse that they love was.And so that can be very disorienting.
And, you know, you feel like you're on quicksand suddenly because everything you thought you trusted is out the window.
But so I certainly have empathy here.But at the same time, If you were trying to tell me something that badly, I would listen, or I would at least be curious about it.I think it would gnaw at me.
You know, this person wants to tell me something that's important to them, and then I think at that point, you know, I wouldn't want to necessarily have that conversation over the phone where it could be recorded, but I would certainly be very interested in learning what that is so I can make a decision based on that.
Because if somebody tells me some story about how awful they are and it's like obviously nonsense because it doesn't fit anything, then I can maybe dismiss it and say, well, this is something where it's just they're dealing with something.
But if it's something more than that, then I can. assess it and make a decision.
And you also have to take into account, in my mind, if your spouse or someone you love does something as horrible as take the lives of two innocent young children, you owe something not only to your spouse, but you owe something to the greater community and the world.
And you certainly owe something to the families of the dead.
Yeah, I don't.I don't.Yeah, I don't believe in standing by predators.
And that's something that you have to kind of figure out for yourself about whether you're standing by an innocent man, you know, who's being wrongfully accused or if you're standing by a predator.But but certainly I certainly would.
I think a lot of people would be a little bit more curious than this.And I guess it sounds like from what we've heard about some of Richard Allen's background is that he had a history of some pretty
awful behavior, frankly, threatening suicide, waving a gun around and sticking it in his mouth.You know, this is a man with some pretty severe issues.
And I think that combined with the substance abuse that she knew about because he says that she took care of him through the bouts of alcoholism where he was less functioning.
You know, I think that certainly none of that makes you a child killer, but it's certainly I don't know.There's some red flags there, I guess.
To say the least.Next call, June 11th, 2023.Again, it's between Richard Allen and his wife, Kathy.In my notes, it starts rather abruptly with Richard Allen saying, I did it.
No, yeah.Hello.Hi.I did it.Pause.Kathy.
Kathy.What?And then he says again, I did it.Silence.He says, I did it.Or do you still love me? She says, why do you say it?
She says, yes, dear, but you didn't do it.And then he said, why do you say that?And she said, why do you say it?
She said, I don't want, he says, I don't want to upset you.She says, she's already upset.He says, I'm sorry, I don't know what I'm doing.I feel like I've lost my mind.Kathy Allen says, you can't call me and talk like this, okay?
And she said that with some acid in her voice.
He says, I'm so sorry, baby.I didn't want to do this.Honey, I'm sorry.You're not going to do anything to yourself, are you?I'm probably going to have to kill myself now.You don't have anything to do with it.Why are you so mad at me?
She says, I'm not mad, I'm upset.He says, I can't tell you what's been going through my mind.I feel like I'm already in hell.I don't understand what's going on.She says, neither do I. He says, I guess I'm just going to have to stop calling you.
She's really crying.Yeah, can't call me if you're going to talk like that.And then he says, if I'm going to talk like what?And the call ends.
So we're getting to the point where there's not even any sort of, in this kind of call, there's not even any like sort of light talk about anything.It's just, he's almost like trying to blindside her in the beginning with like, I did it.
Like, you know what I mean?Like he's not, he's not, there's no preamble anymore.He's just hitting her with it and it's going off the rails.
He's acknowledging that she's getting upset and he seems to be backing off when he's realizing that she's upset about what he's saying because it's like, you know, well, I'm losing my mind and you know, like.
I think it is such a bizarre moment.He is in, he's incarcerated and charged with the murder of two young girls.And he is asking his wife, like, why are you mad at me?That seemed bizarre and, uh, saying, oh, you're not going to hurt yourself.
I'm going to kill myself is like he wants her to, I guess, demonstrate what he perceives as her love for him by telling him not to do that.Yes.It seems very manipulative.
It was highly manipulative.Yeah.Like, oh, she's crying.Oh, are you going to do anything to yourself?And she's like, no.And he's like, well, I'll probably have to do something myself.It's not not quite in such a flippant tone.
And he's getting very somber, very solemn.But, um, It's a manipulative tactic.
It's a way to control people when you are threatening that and essentially looking for their attention and affirmation and all of that in order to, you know, it felt very manipulative.I mean, I just
And it's like, you know, and yeah, I mean, not only not only has it come out in this trial that, you know, he's accused of killing these two young girls.We all knew that.
But there were also discussions in some of the bizarre things he said about cheating on her, you know, being unfaithful, possibly some sort of history around sexual molestation that he's claiming.
I think in any situation, there'd be plenty for a spouse to be upset about.
And then what's more, then, he's putting her in a position where he's calling her and abruptly telling her these things, which puts her in an impossible place.Because on the one hand, is she not going to talk to him?Is she going to blow him off?
Or the other hand, is she going to hear him and that may possibly seal his fate then? didn't seem to be a lot of empathy.
I mean, he's constantly saying, sorry, sorry, sorry, babe, whatever, but it's not, there doesn't seem to be any acknowledgement of real harm done.
Yeah, he's entirely focused on his needs and what he needs, especially in the short term.And what he needs in the short term is for his wife to say, no matter what terrible things you've done, I accept that you did them and I still love you.
That's what he needs and he's not stopping to consider what that does to her emotionally and he's also not stopping to consider that me doing this in this way on the phone is also going to damage me down the line.Not a good long-term thinker.
No, not at all.And in addition to that, it's just interesting because the turn to religion kind of preempting all of this, you know, it's, you know, part of Christianity is forgiving, forgiving others, seeking forgiveness for one's own sins.
And, you know, in some way trying to receive absolution from that to a certain extent.And I don't know what specific denomination Richard Allen would have considered him as a part of at this time.
So, I mean, there's different specifics depending on that.But, yeah, it's just interesting.It doesn't seem to be
You know, seemed to be someone who who did express at times sympathy for the families, the girls and express remorse around what he did to the girls and what he did to them.But.
What he says he did to them.
What he says he did to them.But it's like, I don't know.It definitely is a lot of focus internally about a lot of it seems to come down to.
And it's interesting that Kathy is the one who sent him the Bible and seemingly the one who encouraged him to use religion as a way to cope with his circumstances and seek God and seek, you know, finding his faith.
it's interesting that he's almost using then some of that, which almost more as a lever to get her to give him what he wants, which is her absolution, you know, if he, if he did it.Yeah.So I just find that odd.
It's almost like he's using that as kind of a way to talk to her about it.I don't know.Or he found it sincerely and is trying to seek absolution.I don't know.
I mean, I can't, I can't know, but it's just a lot, a lot of it just seems to stem from this family dynamic.
So at the moment, we were now done with the recordings of phone calls.There'll be another one a bit later.
And McCleland is asking some questions in direct examination of Master Trooper Brian Harshman, who had the unenviable job of listening to all these recordings.
And he asked Harshman, by listening to all these recordings, have you gotten a sense of Richard Allen's speech patterns and demeanor?
And after the defense made an objection that was overruled, Harshman indicated that Richard Allen seemed calm, subdued, and solemn.His rate of speech in these calls is His rate of speech and his tone is very similar to when he speaks to them.
He seems very placid.He does not seem to be under duress in any way.
Yeah, these conversations just sounded like normal conversations.If you remove the words and put other words in, it was the same tone and cadence.It could be about something normal.
If mine is Kathy crying, you know, it that was what was so striking about them, how normal and banal they were.And even like things like, I don't know, there was one I think the last one they did, we haven't gone into yet.
They had such a banal ending.It was just like so bizarre. But, you know, I mean, yeah.And he's basically saying, like, I listened to all these calls.Some of the some of the ones where he doesn't confess sound very similar.
It's not like he's overtly in a very meaningful outward way, behaving really abnormally and then doing this, because I think if that were the case, you could really make a case for like, well, listen, maybe he's having some kind of specific episode right now.
Look, he's speaking rapidly, he's yelling, he's showing all these different emotions.
Yeah, you're saying in a very clear way what I was struggling to say earlier, which is that there's no tone of upset, there's no signs of duress when he's saying these extraordinary things.
He is talking in the same tone and manner as when he's talking to them about anything else.
We heard just a few moments of a conversation about golf clubs by accident, and his tone in talking about the golf clubs was the same as his tone in talking about confessing to the murder of Abby and Libby.
And it reminds me back again to the other day when it was like, you know, Holman's grilling him.You know, I know you did this.No, I didn't.No, I didn't.And then Kathy comes in and it's the same tone.It's the, I know, you know, I didn't do this.
It's just like, it's weird.I mean, this is odd.You know, people, people might have a flat affect though.So, I mean, I'm not reading that much into it, but it's something to note because it's, It's odd.It's it's unusual.
I think it's it's definitely remarkable.But it's also it's not evidence.I just we're just observing things and telling them to you.And some of that's going to be our opinion.
But I guess I was I was expecting something a bit different from these tapes.
So after this, Master Harshman says that he, I believe in August of 2024, received or examined a report from Dr. Walla.
This is the report in which Dr. Walla records the statements Richard Allen made to her about his activities on February 13th, 2017. Namely that he visited his parents in the morning.He then went out and brought a six pack of beer.
He drank three of them and bundled up a bit and went to the trails where he lay in wait.He saw the girls.He followed them onto the bridge. He did something with his gun, and he believes that's when the bullet fell out.
He then ordered them down the hill, thinking they were a bit older than they were.His intent was to rape them, and then he saw a van, which scared him.Seeing the van caused him to cross the creek with the girls and slice their throats.
He wanted to be sure they were dead.He covered them with branches, and he made his way back to his own vehicle, carefully avoiding the trails.
And Harshman said that when he saw that in the report, the detail about the van stood out to him because he's obviously no one other than the killer would have seen that van.
And so that prompted him to investigate whether or not there could have been a van in that area.Do you want to talk about that a bit?
Yeah, first, though, I want to say something about the bullet, because you might be thinking, well, if the bullet fell out on the bridge, that doesn't make any sense.
But from speaking with some folks who knew firearms a lot better than I do, I think there might be some explanations for that.It seems like Bridge Guy racked the gun while he was on the bridge.
And then the question is, if he racks it again later on, that could cause something to happen in terms of an unspent round. So that's sort of how I interpreted that aspect of it.
Because, again, or you could say something falls out and is put in a pocket and drop.But I mean, I don't know if there's any evidence for that.It's just that's one wrinkle where I'm kind of like, I wonder how that is happening.
At this point, Harshman, it was really dim in the courtroom today, I think because it was a bit stormy out.It wasn't storming, but it was like cloudy outside at one point, so the skylight was less lit up.
So he had to break up his phone and like read his notes, like read something, read some of the exhibits, I think, with his like flashlight on his phone.So that was kind of funny.But other than that, it looks like
He said that he parked his vehicle at a nearby building, so that was kind of vague.
So what did Harshman do to investigate the van?
Well, let's see.He said, let me go back to where that is.He looked at, I mean, he was trying to dig in
to um so this is a gravel drive of course it's an access road that partially goes under the monad high bridge right right and he looked for reports um about like who might be on that road he found um you know, the home.
So that that's an access road that leads to one specific house where Brad Weber lives.He did a BMV check on Weber and found that he owned a 2000 Ford Econoline van that was white at the time.
And he looked at old reports that Weber did with other officers and he looked up his work history as well which had him on that day clocking in at 5 41 a.m and out at 202 p.m he worked at subaru and um
And then also Harshman looked at Google Maps in order to sort of like a couple of times at different times throughout the day and on several different days in order to get kind of a general sense of how long it would take Weber to get from Subaru to his house.
And that resulted in he believed in the afternoon it would take one about maybe 20 to 25 minutes more on the 24 25 side of things. And McClelland asked him, you know, were there reports that mentioned Weber's van?And he said, no.
What's the significance of that?
Well, if Richard Allen had access to his discovery.
So in other words, if it was mentioned in police reports, Richard Allen might have had access to those police reports and would have been able to include that detail in a phony confession.
But since it wasn't mentioned in police reports, Richard Allen did not have access to that detail, and so the fact that he would include it is an argument in favor of it being an actual confession.
Also, you know, I mean, I would argue that like, it seems hard to believe that Richard Allen was cobbling together some phony story because he was eating his discovery and like putting it in the toilet and doing all manner of things to it.
But even if he just had, you know, brief access to it, you could say that, well, maybe, maybe there's something there, but not in the reports and more so it's not public.Uh, there was no reports about it.
You know, it's not, it was, it was not scooped or anything.
So basically, Harshman explained how he did the investigation to establish that the driver of the van seen by Richard Allen, according to Richard Allen, was in fact Brad Weber.
I think at this point, they played again, they played the enhanced version of the complete Bridge Guy video.
So once again, everyone in the courtroom who had just heard all these phone calls with Richard Allen now heard again the voice of Bridge Guy saying, guys down the hill.
And McClelland asked Harshman the obvious question, and Harshman said with the voice of Bridge Guy is the voice of Richard Allen.
Yes. It sounded exactly like him to me.It's a minor thing, ultimately, because it is just an impression, and it's not evidence, but it was, I thought, pretty powerful.
Now, we got to Brad Rosie's cross-examination.
He opens he opened broad saying well there were 14,000 tips weren't many people's voices weren't many people tipped in as bridge guy many people's voices compared and Harshman's response was I don't know I joined this in 2020 you know, I'm not looking into all those tips and Yeah, they talked about
Brad Rosey asked, do you believe Brad Weber when he says he was the driver of that van?And Brian Harshman indicated he did.
And he indicated that Brad Weber being the driver of that van was supported by what Harshman referred to as the eyewitness account of Richard Allen.
Yeah.And he also asked him about, he asked him, did you review all the reports with Brad Weber?And he said he did.And then he asked specifically about ones with Agent Poole and somebody named Guti.
who Agent Poole, I believe, is an FBI agent who was assigned to the Delphi case for a time.
So it sounds to me, and correct me if I'm wrong, Kevin, or if you have a different thought, I suppose, we don't know if I'm wrong or right, but it sounds to me like, you know, what I'm hearing here is that there's going to be some report that the defense is going to bring up that calls into question, you know, what time he got home.
And the hint here is that Baldwin's, Andrew Baldwin, one of the defense attorneys, specifically mentioned Well, weren't you working on ATM machines that afternoon?So I'll be curious about this.
Is there something where he says something like, well, I may have gone to look at some ATM machines that day, but I don't think I did.Like what exactly is said?
You know, the most important thing is going to be what, what do, what does, you know, what do the earliest reports say?
Yeah, I would look at what the earliest reports say.Rosie also was saying, well, OK, so it takes 20 to 25 minutes for him to drive home.But who's to say he immediately went to his car?Maybe he stopped and talked to some of his buddies.
Maybe on the way home, he stopped by the gas station or ran a few errands, really trying to do everything they can to discredit or raise doubt about this van report because they know how bad it is for them and their cause.
He also started trying to bring up Brad Weber.He had a handgun.Wasn't he a suspect?And that was objected to.He asked Harshman, did you wonder if Brad Weber was involved after you put his van there at that time?And Harshman said no.
So there was a break at one point and then the cross resumed.But at one point, McClelland objected to him, to Brad Rosey talking about like, you know, what if what if I told you, you know, like that his his information was contradictory?
And McClelland said, quote, it miscarried.He's mischaracterizing what's in the report, end quote. Quote, if Brad Weber is not a credible human being, would your theory of that time, would your theory of the timeline change, end quote.
So it's interesting, it's, you know, it's certainly this defense team, it's like, it's obviously not enough to try to impeach or discredit Brad Weber, he's gotta become suspect number one, obviously, here. And I think that's interesting.
Um, and especially like, listen, I mean, we're not members of a jury.We can just tell you what we think.And what I think is that I've heard a year of, of, of Odinism.And I know that they are currently trying to get Odinism back into the case.
So suddenly acting like Brad Weber is, you know, the, uh, public enemy number one is just kind of like, okay,
Harshman told Rosie that he believes Richard Allen is still a person who needs to be watched for his safety.There was a discussion about whether or not Richard Allen poses a threat to others.
There was a reference to an incident in Westville where Richard Allen spat on a staff member and put a pin in this because the issue of whether or not
Richard Allen is possibly representing a threat to others, comes back to dominate the afternoon session in a really big way.
Harshman said that he thinks Richard Allen struggles to be alone because Richard Allen needs constant attention and he does whatever he thinks he needs to do to get that attention.
like banging on the wall with his head in order to get someone to come back to him and talk to him.At one point, Rosie just started talking.
And Prosecutor McLeelan finally just says, Your Honor, what's the question?And Judge Gold looks baffled and says, I don't know.And there was laughter in the courtroom.
I don't think even Rosie knew.
I don't think Rosie knew either.I mean, like, he just talks.Can I just say the part where he just started going at Harshman for doing his job?Like, you get alerts when he sends a message, don't you?
Yes, like you're tracking him, you know, really closely and you're listening to his calls.It was like, like, I get what he was trying to do.He's trying to say his prison conditions are so horrible because people are listening to his calls.But.
Well, we can talk about redirect later, but it yeah, it was just like, I don't know, I thought I had a heart.Harshman did a good job.He was just very, like, matter of fact, very.Very nonplussed, you know, just kind of like.
whatever, you know what I mean?But he had a good demeanor on the stand, I thought.
You're talking about redirect, so redirect begins after lunch by playing the call that kind of got lost in the technological problems earlier in the day.This is, was this May 17th, 2023?Is that the date, or is it March 17th?
My handwriting is very bad.What do you have?
We jumped ahead a lot, I think, but there was some stuff I might wanna go back to, This is interesting because this got this got spread all over online by certain individuals.
But at one time it was being put out there that because of statements made by the defense alluding to this, that Richard Allen was confessing to having shot the girls and done other things that certainly didn't happen.
This is a very so this is important because, again, Some folks, you know, even reported on this.You know, he was saying he shot them.
And listen, a big tell that you have a false confession on your hand is that false information is included in the confession.So I don't even know why Rosie brought this up, but he brings up, you know, didn't he say he shot the girls?
And Harshman comes back with, quote, that came from an inmate companion.There's no recording or video of him saying that, end quote. He also disagreed with Rosie's contention that there's falsehoods in the confessions. saying again.
So this is what I've been saying for a while, because I feel like that would have been an absolute gift to the defense for them to trot out and be blasting constantly.
It would be a great point for them to make because they could say, look, he's here staying.He's rambling and telling Kathy how he shot them.He know they weren't shot.He's just he's out of his mind and he's saying whatever.
And that would have been, to me, a huge win for them.But instead,
you know people who haven't covered this for a long time do not understand this but this defense team has a history of writing checks that bounce and this is one that bounced because some inmate companion going and like you know hearing you know like mishearing or maybe passing it along through the the prison grapevine
and getting a detail wrong is certainly significantly less good for the defense than something where it's coming from his own lips.So I felt it was important to say that.I thought it was funny at one point, Rosie started trying to get
make this a thing.Oh, the Weber end of the bridge.Did you catch that?You know, it's the Weber end of the bridge.Again, emphasizing Weber.
You know, he makes a big deal about, well, you know, how can anyone how could bridge guy who, again, it seems like half the time they're defending bridge guy as opposed to Allen, which is interesting.He talks about in the bridge in the video.
You know, how can that bridge guy have been lying in wait because he's walking on the bridge?We don't know who is lying in wait.
And it's like, okay, like, Harshman's like, quote, the girls walk past him, he could have been lying in wait, getting behind them.It's a pretty obvious point to make.
It's a pretty obvious point to make.
And then, you know, yeah, I just thought that was kinda, I just, like, why do they make points like that and then just, like, sound ridiculous and they can be explained away?And then, yeah, they talk about, I guess they go on, and we can kind of go.
back to recross, I think.Oh, and yeah, hard to handle in prison.
And then, this was interesting, Harshman said, in response to the questions about his bad behavior in prison, quote, I would direct you to talk to them about it because I think they have a different opinion.
That's about the prison staffers who've had to deal with this.
And again, put a pin in that.
Are we ready for this phone call?
So is this May 17th or March 17th?
Um, I believe this is May 17th.Oh, can I just read one more quote?Um, quote, this is about his behavior.Quote, he was banging his head on the wall because no one would talk to him and he was frustrated.
And then he became even, this is at the end of the quote, but paraphrasing, he became even more frustrated when no one would talk to him, even the, even despite the fact he was injuring himself by lightly tapping his head on the wall, which ultimately he did so much.
that he did hurt himself, and his face became swollen.
All right, so let's go to- So is this May 17th or March 17th?
Okay, this is the May 17th, 2023 call between Richard Allen and his mother, Janice Allen.Begins with Janice saying, hi, hello.Richard Allen says, I'm here.She says, how are you?He says, all right, I guess.She says, it's good to hear your voice.
Richard Allen replies to that by saying, did Kathy tell you I did it? Janice responds, well, we're not going to discuss this, OK?Are you here?He says, I'm still here.She says, we love you.You know that, don't you?He says, regardless.She says, yes.
He says, you know if Kathy's okay?Janice assures him that Kathy is okay.Richard Allen says, I've been worried you guys weren't going to love me because I said I did it.Janice says, Ricky, you're not in a good place, and we love you.
Just saying it doesn't mean you did it.He says, it does, and I did. She says, Rick, don't talk like this.They're just messing with you.I just know you don't have it in you to do something like this.
You say at some point, no, mom, they're not.
I have him replying to that by saying, Mom, I wouldn't tell you I did it if I didn't.She says, if they're messing with your meds, you would, but we're not going to talk about the case.
And Richard Allen says, so if I did it, so if I did do it, you wouldn't love me anymore?And she replies, I would always love you no matter what.Nothing will make me stop loving you. And that's the end of my notes.
She talks about letters she's written him every day, and he says, great, that's something else to share with my therapist.And then she remarks, oh, are they letting you see her again?And he indicates that they've been letting him see her every day.
And, um, he, they kind of like, all right, well, I'll let you go tell everyone else.I love them.That's where the, that's where the strangeness comes in for me.
Cause it's like all this weird discussion of, of this stuff and the back and forth, but then it's kind of like this normal ending of like, well, tell everyone I said, hi, you know, it's like, yeah.
What do you think, what do you make of the fact that both Janice Allen and Kathy Allen were repeating this idea that, you know, he was being drug brainwashed, whatever in prison, that was the reason that this was happening.
I guess everyone looks for a reason not to believe something you don't want to believe.And maybe someone raised that as a possibility.
I just find it interesting because I don't feel it's realistic.I don't think it's realistic.But also, I mean, well, listen, he was injected with Haldol sometimes because of his behavior.That's documented that that was brought up at trial.
But I think, you know, the lawyers on his side, the defense attorneys are certainly capable of making those arguments themselves about his prison conditions leading to this.
And I'd be really I'd be really interested in their portion of this trial now that now that it's there, you know, it's their time to present is their time to put on a case.What do they have to say about that?
Are they making specific allegations that they can kind of show and say, here's what was happening?They were doing this to this medication and throwing this in the mix and it was having this reaction in here. Because they're allowed to do that.
They can do that.You know, people who make arguments for them online seem to forget that or think that they just forgot.But there they can argue that they can put on experts.They can do all of it.And so.
That would be something to bring up and that would be something to certainly clarify.I just find it interesting that everyone was sort of in lockstep at this point.Basically ignore Richard because of this specific reason.
And I just wonder where it came from.
So then Harshman, as Anya mentioned, during the cross, Rosie tried to suggest it was very unusual for Richard Allen to be subject to this kind of monitoring of his calls, and Brian Harshman said, no, it's common for people who are incarcerated to be subject to this kind of monitoring.
And then they got to this issue of Richard Allen, whether or not he has been violent.
And as we all know, for the last couple of months, Richard Allen indicated he was very unhappy being in a prison that's within the Indiana Department of Corrections.
So back in early August, he was moved to a jail in Cass County, and we've been led to believe that this change is supposed to have been very, very good for him, and the conditions there are supposed to be so much better.
The question was asked, is he still having situations where he is violent even at Cass County Jail?And Harshman said, yes, there have been times where he has been violent there and needed to be restrained.
He said, well, as a matter of fact, just over our lunch break, I saw a video taken from Cass County Jail, and it showed Richard Allen screaming loudly, pounding on the door of his cell, and telling the guards he is going to fucking kill them.
And Nick McClellan wanted the jury to see this video.
Because Brad Rose the earlier had said, well, why don't we see the videos of Richard Allen calling his mother and wife?Because wouldn't that give us more context about these calls?And Nick McClellan at this point said, that's a great idea.
And also you're talking about him not being a threat to people.Let's watch a video of this. The defense, you will not be shocked to hear, was very unhappy with this idea.
There was a long sidebar with the noise machine, and Judge Gull came out and told the jury, guess what, you guys can have another break.
And she said, this video is 30 minutes long, it's not clear if the defense has seen it, they want to see it, so let's let them go see it. So they went to go watch it for 30 minutes.
We're all hanging out.We're all just wandering around the courtroom.
And I think it took them a little bit longer than 30 minutes.They came back finally looking very upset.
Oh, yeah.They did not look happy.
So just the description of the video that we have makes it sound not good for them, but whatever is actually on that video must be even worse because they look very, very, very unhappy.There's another sidebar.
We literally come back and they go on the record and then sidebar.
And so then at this point, Judge Gull says, OK, I'm going to go into my chambers.I'm going to watch this video.So she's gone for 30 minutes at least.And then I think there's like another sidebar.
There were so many sidebars today.
And so then the decision is made that at least for now, this video is not going to be shared.I'm not sure if that's a permanent decision, but at least for the moment, this video is not going to be seen by the jury.And again, when I...
Even after they got that decision, the defense attorneys looked very, very unhappy.
When they came back with Gull, or when Gull came back and they came back, I was certain it was in based on how unhappy the defense looked.
The defense looked miserable.
even after they won the point.So that makes me wonder maybe it's not permanent, because they look so unhappy.They look so, so unhappy.
What the heck is in this video?
Whatever is in this video, I don't want to speculate.
It's probably pretty bad.
You all are welcome to speculate.It must be really, really bad, because they seemed very, very determined not to let this video be seen by the jury.
Yeah, and the fact that the, you know, I would have, you know, they won the point.So you'd like come back in like, okay, yeah, we did it.No, that was not the vibe.Another question is, why the heck would Rosie ask that question?
Have they just not been paying attention to what they're their client is doing.
Yeah, why bring up, oh, let's watch videos.Why bring up, oh, he's been an angel in prison.He only hurts himself when he's rolling around in his own feces.
At Westville, you know, or prison, you know.But if he's been, you know, frankly doing stuff that he shouldn't be doing at Cass County, then that would be something for them to monitor so that then they don't get into a situation.
And by this time, they should know that he is a difficult client to deal with because he has been, frankly, the star prosecution witness this whole time.You know, a large portion of the case is stuff that he has handed to the state.
And this appears from the outside, at least, to be yet another thing that he's doing that is making it very difficult for these attorneys to defend him.
So then the jury was brought back in and pretty quickly we got to, oh, Nick McLean wanted to bring out a fact well worth bringing out, which is that, yeah, all phone calls are monitored except for calls from attorneys.
And then we had a handful of juror questions.
Yeah.And Rosie Rest said no recross.
That was interesting to me.
Your question, in your experience, Trooper Harshman, are people generally held before trial, mostly in jail or in prisons?And of course, the answer is jail.
There was some confusion, seemingly, with dates.Before May 2nd, 2023, did you hear any confessions from him?And McClellan had clarified that the confessions go back to April.
April 3rd was the first phone call confession.
Do you know how many vans traveled down Brad Weber's driveway?And no, it's a harsh move, it is a private drive.
And Brad Weber is the only house that it really leads to.And then another one asked about the private drive and like, how many vans were on the drive?And you know, the answer is we don't know.And what was the other one?
Oh, kind of describing it's like a dirt, There's like one other exit from Weber's property is like a dirt trail around a cornfield.And yeah.
After this, the judge announced her decision on Richard Allen's Google search history.It was admitted and it was shared with the jury, but at least as we left the courtroom, it hadn't been made available to the press.And after that. the state rested.
So the prosecution's case is done and now it's time for the defense to step up.And so what's interesting here, a number of things are interesting, but one thing, it's fun.
I use fun in a very loose way apparently, but it is interesting to see people change roles because so far we've seen the prosecution have the burden of putting on witnesses and presenting witnesses.
while the defense gets to try to poke holes in the things those witnesses say.
So now the tables turn, and it's the defense that has the responsibility to put on witnesses and get the jury to believe them, and it is the prosecution that gets to cross-examine them. So that is interesting.
I think we were all very, very interested to see how the defense would begin their case.Because generally, you know, you'd like to start with pretty strong witnesses.Didn't the prosecution start with family members of the victims?
Yeah, it was very powerful and emotional testimony and it kind of set the scene up for who these girls were and generally what happened to them because they were all able to recount what happened that day that they went missing and then them being found murdered.
So it was very powerful.It's not necessarily like the center of the case, but it's sort of a kind of something that brings you into it and makes you realize how important this is.And I think That's what you would expect.
So the first witness that the defense called is a 30-year-old Cheyenne Mill.And I want to say something about her, which is that very early on in her testimony, Judge Gull grew Upset seems like too strong of a word.
She grew concerned because it appeared as if Cheyenne was basically reading her testimony from notes she had in front of her.
So she had those notes taken away and that seemed to have perturbed or annoyed Cheyenne because she mentioned it a few other times in the course of her testimony.
And I think it's interesting because at other points in her testimony, she would be referring to things that happened like seven years ago.Like, oh, seven years ago, I don't think the police called me back as quickly as I think they should have.
And that seemed to irk her.She seemed to be a person who has a lot of things that irk her.
Well, yeah, this was this was this was a choice.OK, let's talk about what she she testified to as far as what she was doing.February 13th, 2017.Again, first witness for the defense. Yeah.
Well, can we just say, like, the state's theory of the crime is that the phones, the phone of Libby, Libby German's phone stops moving at, I believe, 232?Yeah.Is that right?Stops moving, never moves again.So the girls are dead by 232.
They're abducted around 213.And this is a brief attack that, you know, abduction, crossing the creek, abduction, being startled by the van, crossing the creek, murder.The phone is not moving.So 232.
So if you have a witness come out and say, listen, I was there on the bridge around like 2.20, 2.30, I heard nothing, I saw nothing.That would be a pretty big deal.
Cheyenne says that she thinks she probably got to the Monon High Bridge about 10 to 3.
Well, first of all, first she started, this is where I was like, whoa.
I think she parked at the parking lot, at the Mears lot, maybe around 10 to 3.
Well, at first she was saying, I got there at 2.15, and I was like, whoa, okay, what are we doing?This could be interesting. But it became clear that she was mistaken.
She and her friend Shelby Hicks had been hanging out at France Park, which is east of Delphi, and then they decided, it's a beautiful day out, let's go to the Monon Trail as well and go to the Monon High Bridge.
And she thinks she parks around 10 to 3.She gets a call from her boyfriend at 312 at a time.She was on the trails.So she's on the trails and she's on the bridge well after 3 p.m.at which time.
crime, if you believe the state's theory, has already occurred.
And it's hard for me to see the value of having a witness testify who arrives at the crime scene after the crime has been completed and who doesn't seem to have noticed anything that would help us understand the crime.
But what's also especially bizarre about this is that we've been hinted at by the defense that their theory is that the girls were in fact abducted in a vehicle and driven away via the access road.So how does this help that either?
Because they're already gone by the point that she gets there, according to the defense's theory. Right?So basically, this was a complete waste of time.
I don't know why we needed, she didn't witness anything of value, and she's talking about things, oh, she goes to the end of the bridge, steps into the woods, and urinates.
Yeah, she talked a lot about, there was a lot of discussion about her and her friend relieving themselves in the woods and smoking cigarettes on the first platform, but let's break it all down.
And there's pictures of them that they took on the bridge.
I don't know why the defense called her, honestly.
I don't understand why they called her.It's really not for the first witness.
A reporter near me said the same thing.They were just like, what was the point of that?
So for the first witness, especially, I think if I had to read between the lines, this is more of a thing about criticizing the investigation, the way it was handled.
I don't know if this is the person I would have picked for that or for my first witness.
So this is, okay, so they talk about how they walked from the Mears connection, where they parked, they parked across from the Mears farm, and they go to the trail and they passed, a man and first they passed a man and then also a man and a woman.
So she described the man as overweight and he did not respond when she said hello.She did not provide a description of the man other than that he was overweight.And she said she knew the man and the woman
They were both on the first platform of the Monon High Bridge.The woman was Shelby Duncan and the man was Daniel Pearson.And they were having some sort of conversation.She said hello to Duncan because she knew her.
And then she and Hicks kept walking by.And, you know, she they they went across the bridge and she described it as, you know, it's a it's a scary bridge, blah, blah, blah.
let's see, and they take, they get to the end of the bridge and then, you know, relieve themselves nearby, then walk back and took pictures as they went.So they took pictures on their Snapchat.One of the Snapchats is
at 3.49pm, and at that point they'd sort of made it towards the end of the bridge once more, and there's different photos. They show, like, the bridge and, you know, the timing.
And then there's also an important picture, or I guess important is relative here, but of Duncan's feet dangling off the first platform of the bridge at 355.
And she said they stayed there long enough to smoke two cigarettes each, kind of just hanging out, enjoying the weather, such and such.
So that last picture of the bridge, I think you indicated it was taken at 355.So I think that's like a minute before Sarah Carbaugh spots the Muddy and Bloody Man.
So part of me was wondering, OK, well, maybe they drove off at a time where they should have also seen Muddy and Bloody Man.Maybe this is an answer to Sarah Carbaugh.But no, because they're literally on the bridge at that point. So like, OK.
And then we kind of get to I think what is the more of the.So Ms.Mill had, you know, seemingly a lot of issues with how this was handled investigatively.She complained early on that the initial dispatcher she so she.
She was made aware that the girls had disappeared via Facebook when someone commented on her photo.And then she called in saying, hey, I was at the trails that day.And she described the dispatcher as, quote, very disrespectful, very rude, end quote.
And she gets very, very animated whenever she is talking about her issues with the investigation and how they've affected her.
the dispatcher was rude and the police didn't call her back for two weeks.
And I think the police were pretty busy.
Well, OK, well, we'll get to that.But, you know, we're here.This is a situation like I understand feeling frustrated.You know, people want to help.They want they want to be taken seriously and have their information assessed.
So I understand maybe having some of those emotions.I guess, you know, she noted that they didn't hear anything unusual when they were up there.Nothing out of the ordinary.No screaming, no weirdness.They didn't see anything.They saw no one.
So with that in mind, it doesn't really surprise me that Like, it's good data to have that, right?It's good data to say, you know, OK, there were a bunch of people there more of towards 3 p.m.to 4 p.m., that kind of area.
That could be interesting because if there's a lot of people there in that time frame, that kind of supports the idea that the murders had already happened.
Yeah, whatever it happened, it happened.It's it's done.Nothing's happening in the area.No one's hearing anything.So I think that's helpful data to have.And I think it's it's good that she called it in.
But from the perspective of like assigning a detective to that, it's just it's like negative information.It's more of like what didn't happen as opposed to something interesting that they saw.So two weeks later,
They, you know, a police officer meets her at Indiana Beach in a parking lot, and she complained that he only talked to her for a short period about her experience, and then... left and yeah.
At some point she mentions on Facebook that she was there and so then people on Facebook she says doxter in cross-examination Stacey Diener one of the prosecutors made the obvious point that the people harassing her and doxing her were not law enforcement but just people on social media.
And I believe I believe her.I mean, this is something that happened to a lot of people in the Delphi case.And my heart goes out to her.She said people are targeting her children.That's awful.And I imagine that was incredibly traumatic and upsetting.
It's not fair that a lot of people who just happened to be there that day or have some sort of mild connection to the case have been harassed and hounded. And I've been the subject of abuse online.It's like a mob mentality.
And I've seen it again and again.It's not fair.And that's not right what she went through.And so like that is horrible and disgusting.
And then in recross examination, she added, I guess, the defense team to the list of people she complained about because earlier she'd had to give a deposition to Rosie.
And she said, well, I only knew about that deposition because, thankfully, Stacey Diener of the prosecutor's office called me.So she seems an odd choice for the defense at all, let alone as a first witness.Do you want to talk about
She also said the police officer she talked to was trying to antagonize her because her boyfriend was in jail at the time.
It just seemed like there seemed to be a lot of personal issues coming out in the forefront here, which I don't feel made for a particularly compelling witness.
Let me ask you this first jury question, this first jury question.The first jury question of their first witness is, did you see or hear any vehicles under the bridge?And the defense witness says, well, there's no road under the bridge.
It's just water.And of course, the defense's whole theory is there was, in fact, a road under there that, yeah.
Well, there is an access road that goes under the bridge.And, you know, I mean, Yeah, that's not exactly a super observant statement to make.And I understand that because that's probably something I'd miss.
I'm not necessarily like always miss observant, especially if I'm just like enjoying nature or something.But again, it just didn't feel like this
Witness really had much to add and it just seemed like almost like she really wanted to be helpful and wanted to get involved But I think the road to hell is paved with such intentions I think this is a case where a lot of people have wanted to be involved and then maybe feel a bit resentful when their theory isn't Accepted or their information is not considered important and I get that it's a human instinct but it just was very palpable on the stand today, and it just didn't feel
You know, it almost felt like kind of a callback to the Sarah Carbon testimony, except that she made it clear she really didn't want to be involved.She was also highly emotional and a bit combative.
But in this case, it was just like she didn't see anything.And by all accounts, and I mean all, I mean the defense, too. nothing would have been happening.
Because, again, isn't the defense's contention that the fact that Abby's, the fact that Libby's phone wasn't moving an indicator that they were in a vehicle?So if the phone stops moving at 232, they're in a car.They're gone.
And I'm taking the defense theory seriously here just to explain, like, why do we need to hear from Cheyenne Mill at this point?And the fact that she didn't even know that there was an access road indicates that I don't know.
It's like, that is the defense's whole theory.They asked her how long it took her to get across the bridge.She indicated that maybe like about 10 minutes because it's treacherous.
So the second defense witness of their entire case is Teresa, is it Liebert?Is that how you pronounce her?She was presented by Andrew Baldwin.I want to choose words carefully here.This was very awkward for a few reasons, one of which Ms.
Liebert talked incredibly softly.
You could, this was the quietest witness we've had by far.You could barely hear her.I could barely hear her.I could see everyone slowly leaning up in their seats.I was thinking, there were a couple of seats open in front of us.
I was thinking, like, do we risk it and just move up a row?But I didn't want to get yelled at by the judge, so we stayed put.And I just, I can't emphasize how awkward this was because
Baldwin, to his credit, was very patient and, and, you know, was very much trying to kind of coax information out of her and seemed to be having a very difficult time getting her to raise her voice or provide some of the information that he clearly wanted.
And it also seemed unfortunate.She says, so she lives on 625 North or 625 West.I'm not sure.West, I think. And she lives near the Weber residence, which is on a connecting road, this access road we've heard all about.She's lived there for 48 years.
He had her come up to a map and say, can you pinpoint on here where Brad Weber's residence is?And she couldn't do it. And that didn't really lend a lot of confidence in her as a witness or what she had to say because I think
This is a witness who's lived there for 48 years, and listen, people can have situations, and we don't know what's going on in her life and whatnot, and it's not a personal criticism.
It's just when you have a witness like this, it really helps to be able to show, okay, they know where everything is and what's going on, and they're on the ball here.
She seemed very confused, and in the heart of her testimony, is that on February 13th, 2017, at around 8.30 a.m., she's coming home, and there's a few other houses on her street, and you know how in some neighborhoods,
instead of having a mailbox at every house, they'll have like a little section in the neighborhood where there's like three or four mailboxes.And that apparently is the case here.
And at 8.30 in the morning, she sees a stranger near the mailboxes, does not get a good look at him, but is convinced he is a stranger.And she told law enforcement what she saw.And I make the obvious point
This happens at 8.30 in the morning and it was about 2.13, so close to six hours later when the girls were abducted a short distance away.And I'm not sure there is any reason whatsoever to connect those two incidents.
You have to separate in true crime and in police investigation and frankly in defense work, criminal defense work, the signal from the noise and
That means focusing on the most important things rather than things that just might be some, you know, maybe you don't recognize.Maybe, you know, Kevin, if you shave your beard off, maybe a neighbor might look at it and say, who's that guy?
Oh, oh, it's Kevin.But maybe if they're just driving by really quickly, they're like, I don't know. You know, there's all sorts of things that could happen.Someone's visiting a relative.Someone's just going for a walk like there's.
And when it's something that's like maybe if it's something that's really close in time to the incident that you're looking at, maybe that takes on a new significance because there's that temporal proximity.But in this case.
Hours later, no description that she gave to the court.It's just like, she didn't describe and she wasn't like, he looks like this or that.She indicated it was a very, very brief thing where she just saw him.
And like, again, like there's just awkward moments, like when she was at the map, she like, Baldwin at one point had to literally physically move her by the shoulders in order to position her for the jury.Do you remember that?
I do.She seemed very, very confused.
It just felt like it was just a weird... It felt like it wasn't appropriate for her to be there.It felt, I felt bad for her.
Yeah, I did too.I just, it just, I don't know.It was like, what are they doing here?Like, like what, like to tell us that she saw a man that she cannot describe and thinks she didn't recognize at 8.30 AM?
Prosecutor, uh, Jim Luttrell.
did the cross-examination, and he did it very, very gently.He said, you know, later that afternoon, around 4 p.m., some girls knocked on your door looking for someone.Do you remember that?She said no.
And then he was like, well, I will make sure I understand this.This person by the mailboxes, you never saw him before or since, and you never saw his face and can't really describe him.And she says, yeah, that's correct.
And then he just takes a breath and says, well, thank you for coming in.I have nothing further.
Yeah, he was really, it was very, I mean, honestly, it was like a very nice,
It was very gentle, very gentlemanly, but also somehow the most devastating thing for the defense, because it was essentially like this isn't even worth going into on an extensive cross examination.That's what he was saying.
You know, I like there's no point in basically ripping apart this lady who like doesn't seem to have much to offer here, but is also just a human being and is, you know, probably trying to do what she thinks is the right thing.
It was just like, like, what, what were they thinking?
The jury question, there was only one.I thought it also was quietly devastating.The jury question was, well, you know, there was no school that day, so couldn't it be possible that this person you saw was just a high school kid?And she said no.
And that was it, that was it. It was a very, very, very, very underwhelming start for the defense.
So this was the last witness of the day, and then the jury was dismissed, and then Andrew Baldwin stood before the judge and said, you know, we've asked to bring odinism back in.Can you tell us soon whether or not we can do that?
Because we need to figure out a strategy.We need to chart a way forward.
Can I just say something about that?
That kind of paints a picture of a defense in disarray, and certainly these two, as your opening witnesses, seem to confirm that.What'd you want to say?
Odinism was thrown out over the summer, correct?
They've had since the summer to ask for a continuance, which given the fact that they put so much work into Odinism, I would have understood. and or figure out something.But.
Why are they essentially acting like they're suddenly rudderless in the middle of trial.They chose to go to trial at this point.They chose not to continue.They chose to go full steam ahead.When they knew Odin is and wasn't in.
So it's like suddenly look oh we are sure about Odin is like were they banking on that that she would change her mind after that disastrous three day hearing.
Session where it was basically just ripped apart in front of everyone like I'm Odin ism is not a good theory.They don't even seem to friggin understand like the basics of what Odin ism even is
And so and they had they had nothing.And so the fact that this is ending with them being like, so we don't really know what to what they like.Their client deserves a robust defense.And if he wants one, if he wants one.But here's the thing.
I mean, we're here and, you know, they've been alluding to this, you know, car situation where they're abducted in a car.So fine, whatever.That's that's something that they can build something around, whatever.But
Why why act like then like we need to know about odonism because we don't you know we don't know how we're going to go for.
I mean I don't know it just struck me as a really odd comment and it just didn't fit any of the information we know which is that again this has been out for a while.They were supposed to have figured something else out or ask for a continuance.
Yeah. So the first witness says, well, I was there later.I didn't see anything shocking.And the second witness is, well, six hours earlier, uh, I saw someone that I can't really describe and who knows.
So it, yeah, it's, it's a surprisingly underwhelming beginning for this defense team, but, uh, I mean, they're just beginning, so maybe they're pulling something out.
As the carpenter said, we've only just begun.
He said, well, we do have a couple of witnesses we can call for tomorrow.So I don't know what they're going to do.But yeah.
I don't know why you'd call these witnesses at all.Like at all. Neither of them added anything.It was a bad start, let alone be your starting block.
There's certain people that maybe you look into, you depose, and then you say, all right, well, thank you for coming in, like Luttrell did.You don't, I don't know.
If the goal is to confuse the jury, well, some of those questions indicated a level of skepticism that I would be upset about if I were on the defense team. But you never know.
I mean, maybe again, everyone keeps saying, well, throw enough at the wall, see what sticks.Yeah, I guess so.
But, you know, it helps to have some forethought and to maybe mix up some concoctions that you know are going to probably stick at least a little bit.So.
Yeah, I think we're done.All right.Thanks, everyone, for listening.
And I have a feeling that tomorrow someone else will be joining that two-timer wing.All right.Thanks.Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet.
If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail dot com.If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.
If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet.If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet.
We very much appreciate any support.
Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at KevinTG.com.
If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet Discussion Group on Facebook.We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much.
We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages.Thanks again for listening. Thanks so much for sticking around to the end of this Murder Sheet episode.
Just as a quick post-roll ad, we wanted to tell you again about our friend Jason Blair's wonderful Silver Linings Handbook.This show is phenomenal.
Whether you are interested in true crime, the criminal justice system, law, mental health, stories of marginalized people, overcoming tragedy, well-being, like he does it all. This is a show for you.
He has so many different conversations with interesting people, people whose loved ones have gone missing, other podcasters in the true crime space, just interesting people with interesting life experiences.
And Jason's gift, I think, is just being an incredibly empathetic and compassionate interviewer, where he's really letting his guests tell their stories and asking really interesting questions along the way, guiding those conversations forward.
I would liken it to like you're kind of almost sitting down with friends and sort of just hearing these fascinating tales that you wouldn't get otherwise, because he just has that ability as an interviewer to tease it out and really make it interesting for his audience.
On a personal level, Jason is frankly a great guy.He's been a really good friend to us.And so it's fun to be able to hit a button on my phone and get a little dose of Jason talking to people whenever I want.It's a really terrific show.
We really recommend it highly.
Yeah, I think our audience will like it.And you've already met Jason if you listen consistently to our show.He's been on our show a couple times.We've been on his show.He's a terrific guest.
I say this in one of our ads about him, but I literally always am like, oh yeah, I remember when Jason said this.That really resonated.I do quote him in conversations sometimes because he really has a good grasp of different
She quotes him to me all the time.
I do.I'm like, remember when Jason said this?That was so right.So, I mean, I think if we're doing that, I think, and you like us, I think you should give it a shot.Give it a try.I think you'll really enjoy it.
And again, he does a range of different topics, but they all kind of have the similar theme of compassion, of overcoming suffering, of dealing with suffering, of mental health, wellness, things like that.
There's kind of a common through line of compassion and empathy there that I think we find very nice and We work on a lot of stories that can be very tough and we try to bring compassion and empathy to it.
But this is something that almost can be like if you're kind of feeling a little burned out by true crime, I think this is kind of the life affirming stuff that can be nice to listen to in a podcast.
It's compassionate, it's affirming, but I also want to emphasize it's smart.Jason is a very intelligent, articulate person.This is a smart show, but it's an accessible show.I think you'll all really enjoy it.
Yeah, and he's got a great community that he's building.So we're really excited to be a part of that.We're fans of the show.We love it.And we would strongly encourage you all to check it out.Download some episodes, listen.
I think you'll understand what we're talking about once you do.But anyways, you can listen to The Silver Linings Handbook wherever you listen to podcasts.
Wherever you listen to podcasts.Very easy to find.Absolutely.
