Hi, everyone.I am Blaine Alexander, and we are talking Dateline.I'm here today with Andrea Canning.Hi, Andrea.Hey, Blaine.So this episode is called The Night of the Nor'easter.
If you haven't seen it, it's the episode right below this one on your Dateline podcast feed. So you can go there, listen to it, or stream it on Peacock, and then come right back here.
So for this episode of Talking Dateline, Andrea has an extra clip that didn't make it into the show.Then Dateline producer Sue Simpson will join me to answer some of your social media questions about the episode.
But here's a quick recap of the story.The trial of Karen Reed in Canton, Massachusetts was among the biggest and most divisive cases of 2024.
She's accused of killing her boyfriend, John O'Keefe, a Boston police officer, by drunkenly backing her car into him on a snowy January night in 2022.
Now, Andrea takes us through Reed's trial this summer, which ended in a hung jury, and what to know before Reed's retrial in January. Okay, Andrea, let's talk Dateline.Let's do it.
Okay, so there were so many things about this story that stood out to me.I think one of them, though, is the fact that we hear so much from Karen Reed herself and really up top in the story.
And I think, I mean, it's rare that we actually get to hear from a suspect, the person on trial, as much as we do in this episode, right?
Yeah, it was interesting because usually defendants don't do interviews before trial.It's very rare.In this case, they just wanted to lay it all out there.That was clearly part of the strategy for the defense was to be like, look, this is our truth.
We're going to put it out there.Karen has nothing to hide.
She really didn't hold back.There wasn't much that was timid about her or anything.I mean, she was just so emphatic in maintaining her innocence.
Yeah, she's an intelligent woman.Well spoken.And that strategy was, let's just show all of our cards.Did it work or not?We don't know.Yeah, but certainly has garnered a lot of interest.
And also just when you look at the social media aspect of it, and just how much attention it got before the trial even started. You know, all the people talking about it on X and on TikTok.And I mean, it was everywhere.
And that was what was crazy, too, that not only people were talking about it, but they actually came to town to witness this trial, right, from like Australia, New Zealand.
I mean, what do you think it was that really spoke to people and drove people to be so interested in this case?
I think some people saw Karen as sort of this wounded bird, you know, that she had been wrongly accused.They believed that there was a cover-up.
And I think that people just decided, like, this is a cause we want to be a part of, that, you know, Karen Reed shouldn't be here.And so it just caught fire.
I mean, people were out there wearing t-shirts, and the fact that they were so kind of like divided amongst each other, that there were two camps that felt very strongly.
I mean, when you think about cases like this, have you seen something like this before?Oh, I mean, you know, like OJ, you know?
Yeah, like that level, right?Yeah, like if you go back, maybe not as big, of course, but you really hadn't seen anything in a while that was this big. But I feel like we're noticing more and more though that through social media, word is spreading.
I mean, if you look at even a story that I did that was dubbed the Black Swan in Florida of a woman who was accused of killing her husband, even that one had a lot of social media influence and people showing up to court.
Not as much as Karen Reed, but it shows you that it sort of feels like this new thing that's happening.Absolutely.Yeah, where people are getting involved.
Especially when you have the presence of vloggers and people who are covering them.And that brings us to Turtle Boy.
Yeah.Turtle Boy, this activist slash, I don't know, journalist, influencer, you know, Turtle Boy really got people fired up.
He was so interesting to me.One, what do you think was his interest in all of this?I mean, he really jumped in and just kind of got all in on the story.
Because I think he latched on to the alleged corruption that Karen Reed and her team have said was a big part of this.Of course, the people at the party, the law enforcement, they all deny that they had anything to do with John O'Keefe's death.
But that's Turtle Boy's thing, right, is exposing, like, wrongdoing, corruption, going after the establishment, if you will.And so I think he saw that was happening here. in his eyes and, you know, made it his big cause.
And ironic because he's in legal trouble himself now, right?Yeah.Turtle Boy was charged with witness intimidation.He is pleaded not guilty.
One other thing that really kind of stood out to me about this story, Andrea, was the behind the scenes.You and your team really got a chance to follow the defense along as they were kind of getting ready for trial. Walk me through that.
What was that like?Because that's also rare access that we don't usually get.
Yeah, and that's more of a Sue Simpson question and Marianne Haggerty.Marianne is the booking producer.They really worked hard on this case.Sue was on the Dateline True Crime Weekly podcast saying how, you know, she was
waiting outside of court, like, as early as midnight with her soccer chair, trying to get a seat in the tiny courtroom.And everyone wanted to be there.Everyone wanted to be there.So, I mean, they just worked, they worked hard.And it's like that.
When you go to these trials and you're there for long periods of time, you see people in the bathroom, you see people in the courtroom, you see people in the parking lot.You really get to know people. Yeah, it evolves because these trials are long.
Alan Jackson.I mean, as soon as he was introduced in your story, I said, oh, he's going to be he's going to be interesting.There was one thing that he said.I think you asked, OK, coming from L.A.and coming into the small town, do you tread lightly?
He said, I never tread lightly.I tread towards the truth.Right.
Yes.Yes.OK, here we go. Obviously, there's going to be family members that he's going to rub them the wrong way.There's going to be different feelings about him and his personality, but you can't argue that he is a strong attorney.
He knows what he's doing.Okay.
When we get back, Andrea is going to share a podcast-exclusive clip from an interview with one of John O'Keefe's family members. Let's talk about the trial.I think that there were a number of big moments.
Obviously, Michael Proctor reading his messages on the stand about Karen Reed.That was wild.That was wild.
Who saw that coming?I just think so unprofessional.Whether he did anything shady or not, I don't know, as far as meddling with the investigation.He denies, obviously, that he did anything wrong.
However, I think we can all agree that those text messages were way off base.
Yeah.And I think that, you know, we do so many stories where there's either great police work, shoddy police work, whatever it may be, or errors or whatever.
But this one just seemed like such an unforced error that really kind of undermines the trust that, you know, that flows through the rest of the investigation.
And like, don't put it in text messages. Can I say it blows my mind in 2024 how many people don't know that lesson?That text messages, what you search on your phone, that can be found, that will be found.
Especially law enforcement.Speaking of that point, let's talk about that Google search, Jen McCabe's Google search.
How close long to die in the cold, how long to die in the cold, right?Yeah, that was crazy.
It was, and I thought it was so interesting because, of course, up to a certain point in the story, I'm watching and I'm like, oh, clearly, if you Google that, clearly you're involved.
But then when her explanation came back and she said, no, Karen told me to Google that.We Googled that together when we found him in the cold.I said, oh, that kind of makes sense too, right?
Well, and everyone thinks that it's a tech device, right?It doesn't get things wrong.But I can tell you this.I still have my really old Hotmail account. from like 1997, like I just have it.Does it still work?It works.Oh yeah, it works.
But it has the wrong time on it.Like I see the time is wrong.And so that makes me think like it could happen.But it certainly added an interesting twist to the story.Where is Michael Proctor now?He has been suspended without pay.
You know, I wonder, just from covering a trial, you talk about how long these trials are.
Obviously, you're invested in it, our producers are invested in it, and you think, okay, it's building, building, building to something, and then there's a hung jury and it's a mistrial.
What is it like in that moment when you just kind of get that and it's all over with no resolution?
Well, because, yeah, like everyone's on pins and needles and then, oh. you know, it's just deflated, right?Like immediately, and it's bad for the family.
It's sort of like, in some ways, the defendants can see it as like a mini victory, that they weren't found guilty, but then it's, you know, there's still the dark cloud hanging over their head.It's hard on everyone.
And then the prosecution has to make the decision, do we do this all over again?It's costly.It takes a lot of time.You put the family through it all over again. So those are really tricky, I think, for all involved.
I do want to talk about our victim, John O'Keefe.This episode did a really, really good job of really kind of bringing him out because there was so much interest in this trial.You know, some could argue that he kind of got lost in the shuffle.
And I think that watching your episode, we got a chance to learn who he was.I mean, watching him do the puppet thing with his niece and nephew and eating the marshmallows, which is so sweet.Talk to me a little bit more about what you found out.
I know that you spoke with his family member, Beth, but... Also a childhood best friend.
Yeah, for me, sort of all I needed to know about John O'Keefe was he's a bachelor Boston police officer living in the city.He loses his sister, loses his brother-in-law in a very short time frame.And what does he do?
He gives up his city life, moves into the house, his sister's house, and raises his niece and nephew, that just says so much about someone's character.I mean, wow.
Right.It was so striking.And then to see how much they clearly cared about him and how much he cared about them.I mean, I think that was just a beautiful thing.
Yeah.Those poor children too, by the way.I mean, to lose their parents and then him.I mean, can you imagine?How many times does that have to happen?Oh, I felt for them so much.It's heartbreaking.It's absolutely heartbreaking. Where are they now?
They're being raised by a family member?They're being raised by a family, yeah.And they do have such a wonderful family, and that helps a lot that they're surrounded by love and people who understand their grief and how hard this is.
And so that's the silver lining is that they have so many people who love them.
Sure.Yeah.But no, I thought you just did a beautiful job of just telling us who John was and showing us that too.Well, let's bring in some of that extra sound.
We have a podcast exclusive clip with Andrea's interview with Beth, one of John O'Keefe's family members.This was her first time speaking to the media since John's death.Let's listen.
What's that like as that's sinking in that they think Karen did this?They think Karen ran John over.
Only word that can come to mind is just complete shock.It's just something you don't ever anticipate.
To think that this is, this is someone I know, you know, I've spent time with, you know, and the hardest part is as well is that, you know, Johnny died on Saturday and then Karen is arrested on Tuesday night and they're at court on Wednesday.
There is zero time to grieve, you know, and even in the two and a half years since January 29th, they still haven't had time to grieve because of everything that we've been through.
It's always the next thing, and the next thing, and the next thing.
Exactly.You know, the hardest thing as well is that there's media there, and I understand it.You know, he's a Boston police officer, and again, a big story in the news, but more so than a Boston police officer, he was
a son, a brother, an uncle, a friend.
I could feel the pain in her voice.I mean, I really could.And I think it's almost kind of like a two-prong thing is kind of she laid out.One, it's hard enough to lose a loved one, just period.
But then two, when you add in the added layer of this story almost kind of taking a life of its own and becoming something that's about not necessarily their family member, not necessarily about John, but there are so many other layers to it.
I could see how that could be doubly painful for them.
Yeah, we're so grateful that Beth did the show.The family has been very quiet, done very few interviews.And so for her to come on and be so well-spoken and to bring John to life, to really, they know him better than anyone.
Thank you so much for talking Dateline with me.We had a lot to talk about, Andrea.We sure did.After the break, I'm going to be joined by Dateline producer Sue Simpson to answer viewer and listener questions about the show from social media.
Okay, welcome back.I am here with Dateline producer, Sue Simpson, who's joined me today to answer some of your social media questions about this episode.Sue, thank you so much for being here.I'm so glad to talk to you.It's a pleasure.
Okay, so this first one is a little unusual because it's not from a viewer.So every Friday, as you know, a member of that night's story team posts extra information about the episode from the at Dateline NBC PROD, NBC producer account.
And one of the very first posts on the producer account sent during the show was a shout out to you.Huge kudos to our tenacious producer, Sue.
Since there were only 10 media seats in the courtroom, she was outside of Norfolk County Superior Court every single day in line at 1 a.m.for weeks to ensure that Dateline would have a spot inside to do our reporting.
So again, kudos to you because that's not easy.
Well, you know, it wasn't easy, Blaine, but as you know, you get into a routine, right?I mean, first of all, I wouldn't be doing this job if I didn't want to do the best thing I could.Right.So I'm competitive.Ten seats.
I'm going to be one of those ten seats.But, you know, it this was not planned.It was a situation where the courtroom was changed.
just a few weeks before the trial, going from a very large one to a smaller one, the process was like nothing I've ever experienced.
But that was my question all along, is that with all of the intense interest in this, why such a small courtroom?
Well, let me tell you why exactly, the reasons for the small courtroom.The defense filed a motion a few weeks before the trial was due to start saying, Have you studied this?
At least half of the jurors cannot see the face of the witness if the witness sits in the stand in the big courtroom.And the defense said, we can't have that.So the judge deliberated and decided that, well, we've got to move to another courtroom.
And the only one they had free there was a smaller one.That's why it happened.
Wow, that's fascinating.Mary Brown at Mary Brown ATL-1. Ask the question, which is an interesting one.She says, was the bar sued for over-serving, referring to the two bars where Karen Reed and John O'Keefe went on the night of his death?
Good question.The O'Keefe family has filed a wrongful death lawsuit.They've sued the two bars that Karen and John went to that night, and they allege that the bars negligently served an intoxicated person.
Now, Karen told us in her interview that she did not feel As Dennis put it, legless at all.She felt fine.Yes, she'd had drinks, but she felt fine.
We learned in the course of the trial, of course, from the prosecutors who said that they had evidence showing she consumed nine alcoholic drinks.But Karen told us she felt fine.
Another question that I think a lot of people ask, this is from Sandy Bright Colvin, and Sandy asks, why not just go up to the door?
Another good question, actually, because people are really parsing out the important details here, right?Karen did tell us that she waited in the car for a couple of reasons.One, she didn't know these people well, she said.
These were people John knew. you know, she asked him to go in and take a look and see, are they really welcome here?Because she told us when they pulled up to the house, she felt it was kind of dark.
But so her inclination was not to go in because these were not people she felt 100% comfortable with.
Very interesting.Okay.This next one is from Amy and she asks, and this is something that brings in those messages, the text messages that we heard on the stand from Michael Proctor.As a woman and a mother,
straight disgust and concern that there is a cultural issue of misogyny within the ranks of the Massachusetts State Police.
I mean, I can't tell you how shocked everybody in the courtroom was, journalists, everyone, when these text messages were read out.
I can't speak, obviously, to the culture in the Massachusetts State Police, but I can say that when those stories came out about what he had texted, even the governor was talking about it, saying, you know, this is totally inappropriate, this is wrong.
I do have to emphasize this was on his personal cell.It doesn't excuse what he said in any way.But these were text messages that he didn't think would ever see the light of day.One chain was with old
friends of his and another text chain included actually his supervisor.But again, I'm not going to comment on it because when we tried to talk to the Massachusetts State Police, which we did on a number of occasions, they declined to speak to us.
So I guess we can only judge their reaction by the fact that Michael Proctor was suspended as soon as the mistrial was declared.
Sure, sure. Okay, let me take you to another question.I love this comment from Keith Warhola on Facebook.Keith says, I enjoyed the team reporting of Andrea Canning and Dennis Murphy together.Well done.I have to say I agree with that.
I loved having some Dennis in there and Andrea.That was something, I mean, we never see that, but it was really like a very fancy two for one special.
It was a terrific team effort.As you know, any Dateline story is a team effort, right?But it's because, you know, we started so long ago.We started in March 2023 with a big, long sit-down for hours and hours interview with Karen Reed.
And then, of course, Andrea took over as the trial was starting, and Andrea just dove into it.So, yeah, it was quite something to see the two of them together, and we loved it, too.
And then this one from Lauren Katie on Facebook.Dateline, this needs a part two.This story has so many layers.So, of course, we know that there is more to come.Talk to us about your next step in reporting this case.
And how are you getting ready for the retrial?
There's so much to do. First of all, the date for the retrial has been set, January 27th, 2025.There's been a new prosecutor who's been assigned to oversee the case, Assistant DA Hank Brennan, and he's already making moves.
He's let us know that he wants to interview, for instance, Karen Reed's dad. He also has filed with the court to get another examination of the electronics of Karen's car.He thinks that very important aspects of it may have been missed.
But very importantly, another aspect of it that we're following closely is that the defense heard, they say, from five jurors after the mistrial was declared.
And these five jurors told the defense, look, the jurors were unanimous on two of the charges, one of them most significantly being murder two, murder in the second degree. We unanimously agree that Karen Reid was not guilty on those two charges.
So the defense filed motions saying we think those two charges should be thrown out.The defense made that argument before the judge.The prosecution argued against it and the judge denied the defense motion.So it has now gone.
to the Supreme Court in Massachusetts, which is known as the Supreme Judicial Court.Oral arguments from both sides are going to be made before the SJC next month.So we'll see what happens.
That's one of the things that could possibly delay a retrial starting in January.So we'll wait and see what happens there.
We're going to be watching, and we know that our viewers will be watching, too.Obviously, I'm a Dateline newbie, and I think that one of my favorite parts about this and just getting to dive in completely is talking to the viewers.
I mean, hearing these social media comments and just knowing that every Friday night there's a whole community that comes together has been fantastic, and they've really kept us on our toes, too.
Yeah, you're right.We love that communities and that kind of meeting place on social media every Friday night.Absolutely.It's a special place to be.
We love it.All right, Sue, thank you so much.I really appreciated talking Dateline with you.Thanks, Blaine, and welcome to Dateline.We are so happy to have you.Thank you, Sue.Thank you so much.I'm so happy to be here.
Well, that's our Talking Dateline for this week.And remember, if you have any questions for us about stories or about Dateline, you can always reach us 24-7 on social media at DatelineNBC.
Also, be sure to check out Keith's new Dateline original podcast, The Man in the Black Mask.It's the story of a rising young director shooting a frightening film about a serial killer in a hockey mask.
But when a man goes missing near the set, a real-life horror story unfolds. The first three episodes are available right now wherever you get your podcasts.
Episode four drops on Thursday, which is the same day that Dateline Premium subscribers can binge the full series ad-free.Again, thanks so much for listening, and we'll see you Fridays on Dateline on NBC.
