ecution has called witnesses, including star witness Caroline Ellison, and the defense has cross-examined. There have been dramatic, emotional moments, a secret recording and laughter in the overflow rooms. Lidia Jean has been in court, and Michael has been on book tour. In this episode they catch each other up. Michael is curious how the characters he got to know while reporting his book have come off in court.

This conversation was recorded on October 14.

Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com

To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus.

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Week 2 of Sam Bankman-Fried’s trial is in the books. The prosecution has called witnesses, including star witness Caroline Ellison, and the defense has cross-examined. There have been dramatic, emotional moments, a secret recording and laughter in the overflow rooms. Lidia Jean has been in court, and Michael has been on book tour. In this episode they catch each other up. Michael is curious how the characters he got to know while reporting his book have come off in court.

This conversation was recorded on October 14.

Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com

To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in