Hello, you're listening to Better Known, where each episode a guest makes a series of recommendations of things which they think should be better known.
Our recommendations include interesting people, places, objects, stories, experiences, and ideas which our guest feels haven't had the exposure that they deserve.
The only conditions for discussion are that our guest loves it and thinks it merits your attention as well.My name is Ivan Wise and this week's guest on Better Known is Josie Lloyd.So you're a novelist and you co-host the Show Us Your Bits podcast.
What was the inspiration behind doing that?
The inspiration behind Cherish Your Bits was my friend Alice and I. Alice runs a jeweller in Brighton, well actually she's got stores nationally, called Posh Totty Designs and she was the original hand stamping jewellery company.
We came up with the idea of doing a podcast mainly because I'm very nosy and she wanted to know the stories behind jewellery because when she does hand stamping, people send in messages that they want written on their jewellery and she wants to know what does that mean?
Everybody puts on jewellery every morning, well women do, and it's part of their armour, and what are the stories behind it?Why are they putting those things on?
And people don't tend to talk about that, so it's just a different way in of talking to people.
And do you also, like me, use it as a chance to ask people questions that maybe, if you didn't have a podcast, would seem a bit rude?
Yes, being really nosy about other people's lives is fascinating.
So you've chosen six things to discuss.Your first choice is the Victorian writer Isabella Beaton, who was famous at the time for writing the book of household management.And his biography was written by previous podcast guest Catherine Hughes.
So why is Isabella Beaton's book still relevant today, do you think?
She came up with a lot of common sense advice for running a household.
And actually, we've all got all the stuff of running a household, which is still as stressful now as it was in the Victorian era, except that the Victorians had servants, as I keep telling my children.
I came across her book when I was clearing out my mum and dad's house.And my mum had a really, really old copy that was actually my grandmother's. But I've just written a cosy crime for the first time, it's my 22nd novel.
And I kind of thought, well, actually, it would be fun to use the heritage of Mrs. Beaton to create a character that kind of instills what we in popular culture think about Miss Beaton, which is that she was no-nonsense, knows how to run a household, knows how to get things done, practical person.
So I thought it would be quite fun to take that essence through into my character.
Yes.So your novel is called Miss Beaton's Murder Agency.So is she also a queen of household management?
Well, Miss Beaton, Alice Beaton, is a distant relative of the very famous Isabella Beaton.I mean, I hope I don't get sued by the Beaton estate.She runs the Good Household Management Agency.
So she runs a staffing agency in Knightsbridge, and she places elite staff in the uber-rich households of Knightsbridge and Country Piles.
Right.And so the origin story about Isabella Beaton, she, as you say, wrote about all these different topics, not just cooking, which I think people might have assumed, but also first aid and fashion and looking after animals.
But she herself had a very tragic life.I mean, very short life, dying at age 28.So it does make you wonder what else you might have gone on to achieve.
She was incredible.And actually, there's no real evidence that she even really liked cooking or anything or had even the time because she was married to her husband, who was actually quite a forward thinking guy and believed in sort of equal rights.
And she worked with him in the office and she was a publisher.But she was clever because she was the first person to write down the list of ingredients then the method of how to make something, and then the cost.
Because it was at a time when people were leaving the city and the middle classes had been formed and these women were running households and they were expected to know how to get a decent fish off a fishmonger.
how to order coal, but also how to raise the kids and how to cook a banquet for the husband when he came home with his boss at the weekend.And they didn't have a clue.
And so she laid it all out and kind of did a step-by-step guide about how to do it.But she herself, yeah, she died at 28, very tragically. And she had quite a difficult life, quite a few children and quite a few children that died.
But what a legacy, you know, her book was described by Arthur Conan Doyle.He described her book as having more sense per square inch than anything ever written by a man.
All right, so Isabella Beaton should be better known.Your second choice is how creative collaboration is a magical thing.So you've written a series of novels with your husband.How did that come about in the first place?
I was a novice little author who wrote my first book when I was about 26.
I was working in a sales promotion agency and I was writing the copy that was going on posters that were going to be put on the back of staff loo doors, urging staff to sell more Coca-Cola so that they could get a baseball cap.
And I suddenly thought, hang on a second, this is not my life.I want to be a novelist. Where has that dream gone?And so I jacked in the job and I wrote my first book, It Could Be You.
And I sent it in to a friend of mine who was a lowly tea girl at Random House who edited it.And eventually it got to an editor who said, well, this girl needs an agent and Vivian Shuster owes me a favour.
So I went into Curtis Brown to meet Vivian, who is Margaret Atwood's agent, Jilly Cooper's agent.I was completely totally green about the whole thing.And Emlyn was her assistant.So I said, so what do you do then?
She said, well, darling, darling, I'll get you a, I'll get you a book deal.Emlyn, make Josie some tea.Emlyn was working, he'd just done his first novel as well.So we were both in the same boat.We used to go out and go drinking together.
And one night, we were laughing about his love life and my love life and how the sexes didn't seem to be tallying up.He laughingly said, we should write this down.
The next morning I woke up with a terrible hangover and he rang me up from work and he said, do you remember what we were talking about last night?And I went, yes, yeah, let's do it.
So he went off down to Wales and he took with a whole load of mates and he got all of their worst stories about being bachelors and wrote a character called Jack.
The chapter ended at the point where Jack sees this girl in a nightclub and taps her on the shoulder and she turns round and we don't know anything about her. He gave me this chapter, and this is pre-Ivan, this is back in the last century.
So this is before internet, right?So it was on paper.So I cycled into the Haymarket, got this from Eminem, went to a cafe, sat down, hooted with laughter, thought it was hilarious.And then I went, right, rolled up my sleeves and decided to write Amy.
And I put in all my experience of my single girl's life in London. And then I gave the chapter back to Eminem.And when we put the two chapters together, we realized that we had comedy gold.It went bananas.We had a book auction.
There were eight publishers involved.And eventually we got this enormous deal from Random House.Straight away, we were on the front page of the Evening Standard.And we were signed up to write two books together.
But during this process, we kind of fell in love and we got together.
And it's odd, really, this is not more commonplace, because lots of films are written by pairs, lots of sitcoms, but you very rarely hear it with novels.
No, you do.And novelists are quite precious.And I always say it's a really great thing to have a collaboration.We've just finished our first novel that we've done.We did seven novels together, and then we've done loads of parodies together.
So when we had our children, we've done parodies of all the kids' books that we used to read to them.So we've done Going on a Bar Hunt, The Very Hungover Caterpillar, teenager who came to see.
But this is the first time we've written a novel together for a while.It's been really fun writing.And two heads are better than one.Writers Rooms work together in California.
All the stuff that we see on the telly has had many, many, many brains in it.And I think it's because people don't know how to not be precious about their words.And I think getting over that hump is something that people really need to embrace.
And so many people get stuck with their novels.And I think if you had a writing partner, it would be much easier.
Yeah, I mean, I think the advantages are really evident.I mean, you only have to write half the number of words for everything else.But what are the challenges?
I mean, there must be difficulties, even when it's someone you know very well, of actually, you don't always agree, or there are aspects where you want to do something different.But what are the big challenges, do you think?
I think one of the biggest, one of the biggest challenges is giving feedback.That never really gets any easier.I mean, I work quite often with first time novelists.And basically, if you ever give somebody your novel,
Unless they say, this is going to be the Booker Prize winner, anything other than that feels devastating.Right, so it's really important to know how to give and receive. feedback.
And actually, I'm very lucky in that my relationship with Emlyn was formed as a writing relationship first before we got together.I think if we'd been married and had children and then tried to write together, I think it might be a bit difficult.
So it's about laying down some ground rules, which I think really helps.So one of them is that you have to really don't give scrappy work. to another person.Make sure it's as good as you can possibly get it before you give it to somebody else.
The second thing is that you really need to plan what your story arc is and who's doing which bits.Because every time you write, other stuff happens and characters take on a life of their own and so the more you do it.
So I think it's a great thing and it's a magical thing because it's Something that you come up with together is something you could never, ever have come up with on your own.
So the idea that creative collaboration is a magical thing should be better known.Your third choice is how there's no perfect way to be a writer.Lots of people put off writing novels, but you got going in your mid-twenties, as you say.
So what was actually the thing that pushed you to get on with it in the first place?Was it that you just didn't enjoy your job or what really pushed you?
I think it's that I always wanted to be a writer.I think one of the greatest gifts that you can have in life is knowing what you want to do.And I was really aware that I hadn't been getting on with it.
I had this kind of notion that there was a proper writer.And during lockdown, it was tumbleweed.Creatively, I was just completely stymied.I couldn't do it.And I realized that actually, it was very important to me to see people
and actually that I needed people and to be doing other things in order to write.And I realized that I like writing on the hoof.
I will sit all day, like arsing around and trying to get the fluff out of my keyboard and just really doing useless things.And then just before I have to leave the house for a school pickup, for example,
out it will come, I'll get a tiny snippet, I'll get a tiny, tiny weeny bit of dialogue or a snippet of a scene and then it goes and I will type like really, really fast and out it will come.
Emlyn likes to perfect every sentence and then move on, whereas I like, I'm a big sort of splurger and then it's a get it right then get it right.So there is no right way to do it and I kind of think that quite often when I meet people
and they want to be a writer, they have this notion that they can't be because they can't be a certain way.But there is no right or wrong way to be creative.And if you want to have a go at writing, just start.
We put in so many barriers to our creativity, and I think that we need to set ourselves free.
And you've written so many novels now, 22, I think.Have certain things got easier over time, or is it always still the blank screen when you start, and it's always the same terror of, will I be able to fill it?
Oh, it's always the same terror.And also, how did I do that?It's a bit like there is a shape inside a giant bit of stone, and the writing is the chipping off of the stone.And you get to the last chapter, and the shape is revealed, and you go,
Ah, that, if only I'd known.If I'd known at the beginning, I'd have written it completely differently.
And you don't really know what your novel is going to, even if you've planned it, and even if you know what it's about, you don't actually know what it's actually like until it's in front of you, until you've got it out of the ether and onto the page.
So it's always a kind of massive shock.Ages ago, I did The Marathon and Never Again. Ivan, don't do it.Anyway, I did the marathon, but I realised very early on that I kind of completely got it.I thought, this is exactly the same as writing a novel.
You tell everyone you're doing it, you start off, you're all gung-ho, oh, look at me, I've started. And then you get to the middle and you go, what on earth have I done?What the hell am I doing here?This is horrendous.
And then you kind of see, then they kind of say the end is in sight and then it's just plodding.It's hard work to get to the end.And I was like, well, that's it.That's exactly the same as writing a novel.
Fortunately, I find sitting down and writing novels much easier than running marathons.So actually, I'll stick to that.
And you had this interesting insight where apparently you always write at the top of your document, you're free to write the worst junk in the world.So is that to silence your inner critic?Is that why you do that?
Years ago, I came across a fantastic book by a woman called Natalie Goldberg.She wrote a brilliant book called Writing Down the Bones.
She wanted to be a Buddhist and went to the kind of grandmaster and said, I can't sit still, my knees are killing me. And he said, well, if you want to get somewhere, make writing your practice.And she created a whole method of creative writing.
And actually, what she said was, in order to shut up the critic on your shoulder that goes, oh, you can't write that.And that's too bad.You know, I can't say that.Can I say that?Can't say that.Oh, that's rubbish.She devised writing practice rules.
So they are that you have to write really, really fast. and then eventually something will come out.You have no punctuation and spelling.You have no, you have to go for the Jack Lear.
If you have a, if you have a thought that's really scary, you have to just jump in and do it.And one of the things that she says is that you are free to write the worst crap in the world.That is very freeing and liberating.
I think we're always much more surprising to ourselves than we realise.
So the fact there's no perfect way to be a writer should be better known. You're listening to Better Known with my guest today, Josie Lloyd, who's been choosing a series of things which she thinks should be better known.
So far, we've had Isabella Beaton, how creative collaboration is a magical thing and that there's no perfect way to be a writer.
Now, we've talked very positively so far, but as well as things which should be better known, is there anything really famous you wish was much less well known?
Yes, Instagram and Instagram people who are taking pictures all the time. Ivan, I can't tell you how strange it was to go to Marrakesh a couple of weeks ago.It's our 25th wedding anniversary.
And we went to the Majorelle Gardens where Yves Saint Laurent had his wonderful workshop.And there was a huge queue of people, mainly girls in extraordinary dresses and kind of fashion, waiting to queue up and have these pictures taken.
I was looking at them thinking, why?Who cares?The tyranny of having to put images up needs to stop.
Okay, well, we'll do what we can.
Thanks, Ivan.I'll leave it with you.
Your next choice is Breast Cancer Awareness Month, which takes place in October each year.There are 55,000 new cases of breast cancer in the UK every year, and you yourself have had breast cancer.It must have been extremely unsettling for you.
What were you most taken aback by when you had breast cancer during the whole time?
I was a busy mum of three, doing everything, great career, very happy.And suddenly I was diagnosed with breast cancer, which sort of came out of the blue.And it really sort of felled me at the knees.I was really shocked.
And one of the things that I found the most difficult about it was the kind of sudden labelling, that suddenly I wasn't Josie, an author or writer or anything.All the things that I thought of myself was suddenly, oh, Josie, she's got cancer.
Mmm, she's got cancer.And also, I wasn't allowed to have a sense of humour.And I kind of, I make sense of the world by being funny about it.And of course, you can't, if you have a serious illness, you're not allowed to be funny about it.
People find that in very, very poor taste.So the whole thing was really shocking.And I just didn't know how to be.And I went to the school gates, and I saw another mum, Roz, and she said, Oh, you've got to come and keep fit.
I've got a group of women that are all going through cancer treatment, come and meet them.And I went, no, Ros, I am going under the sofa forthwith.She said, no, no, come down to the seafront and meet my gang of women.
So off I went and met this group of women. And it was a bit like being very, very, very heavily pregnant and meeting new mothers for the first time.It gave me all the gory stories about what was going to happen.
But they had this fabulous gallows humor.And I ended up running with them.And it was just a really wonderful experience to just be with a tribe of women who knew what was going through.And then a couple of weeks later, there was this guy down there.
And he said, so it's really wonderful you're doing the Brighton Marathon 10K. What, Ros?What?She said, oh, the Brighton Marathon 10K, didn't I tell you we were training for this?
So fast forward a few weeks and I'm running bald, I've lost all my hair, running through. And I start the race and very quickly I'm like, Oh, what on earth have I done?How on earth am I going to handle this?
And then runner after runner came up to me and went, I'm clear three years.I'm clear five years.Keep going.I'm clear.I'm clear.Keep going.Keep going.And this one woman ran with me.She said, they thought I was a goner.I was kind of like stage four.
you know they thought I was curtains and actually look at me now she had gorgeous hair and she was very fit and off she ran and on the very last turn of the race she'd waited for me she said hang on a sec I want to tell you something she said when I was at my lowest ebb I was in the Marsden and I had my hair up in a turban and this woman came up to me and said don't give up hope just know that your life will be better than ever the other side of cancer and this woman said but I
She said, I'm not sure about this.She said, no, no, no, I promise you, I had cancer, but my life is better than ever the other side.And I want you to have this.And this woman had taken off a little butterfly necklace that she'd given to this runner.
And this runner said, I've been wearing this necklace for three years, and I've now decided that this is the moment I'm going to pass it on.And I want this to be your little butterfly of hope.
And I want you to wear it and know that your life will be better than ever the other side of cancer.
So, I don't know her name, we just had a hug, we had some tears and I ran and I caught up with my gang and off we went over the finishing line and I had my little butterfly necklace on and of course, being a novelist, I'm like, well, that's a good start for a novel.
And also because I really wanted to make sense of the whole experience through reading a novel.And I couldn't find one that had a happy ending.I didn't want one that was about a mum dying with tubes up her nose in a hospital.
I wanted something that was positive and hopeful and honest.And so I wrote The Cancer Ladies Running Club as a result.My life is better than the other side of cancer, I can tell you.And I am patron of Lobular Breast Cancer UK.
Breast Cancer Awareness Month is partly about trying to give people hope and belief that things can get better and will get better in many cases.But there's also some details of it that maybe people don't know.So there's these two different types.
Yes, there are many subsets of cancer, of breast cancer, but there are mainly generally two types.So there's ductal, which is formed in your ducts, which forms a lump and are the, you know, the messaging around
breast cancer has been very much, are you looking for a lump?But lobular breast cancer grows in a different way.And it lacks a protein that ductile does.So it grows in a sort of straight line.And it grows kind of in a sort of spidery way.
So it's quite difficult to pick up on mammograms.And it doesn't form a lump.So what happens is that it forms, you know, you would be looking out for a little dimple, which is I had in the bottom of my breast or something just a
your breast tissue not looking right.So it's very important that people know they're normal.
So make sure every month you stand with your arms up in the mirror and you know what your breast looks like and you know what your breast tissue looks like and any change in that you need to go and have checked out.
This is a real thing that I'm very passionate about, about telling people about lobular breast cancer and making sure that people know that there's lots of help and support out there.
And presumably with Breast Cancer Awareness Month and also with your book, The Cancer Ladies Running Club, part of it is about giving people hope that things can improve and there is another side to it, but also of actually knowing what to do.
And obviously early detection is probably a very critical part of this.
Yeah, early detection is absolutely key and people get very nervous about thinking, oh, should I go to the doctor?Should I go and get it checked out?Nine times out of 10, it's completely fine.
I mean, boobs are strange things and they're lumpy and bumpy and they do different things in different hormonal stages of our lives anyway, but it is important to go and get checked out.We also have tackling great treatments in this country.
We're very lucky, you know, breast cancer is, you know, if it's detected, and it's detected early, it can be treated very, very effectively.
And actually, we are, we are being treated and people are surviving, and not just surviving, thriving very well the other side.
And do you encourage people if their way of talking about things is to make a joke of it?Do you encourage people to do that?
Yeah, I think talking about it in any way, shape or form possible is really important.In Australia, for example, when skin cancer is so prevalent in their kind of society, people talk about it all the time.
People are aware of the dangers of the sun and they talk about
skin cancer and they talk about it, it's sort of in their society, whereas we're very shy about talking about breast cancer, even though one in seven women get breast cancer, we all know somebody who's had breast cancer, we all know, probably know somebody who's died of breast cancer, we all know somebody who is going through breast cancer treatment, it's very prevalent and we need to talk about it.
All right, so breast cancer awareness month, should be better known. Your next choice is alternative options after breast cancer.
Some people, when they go through such a drawn out and physically unsettling experience, must find it quite surreal to come out the other side.Can you remember some of the mix of feelings you had when you had the all clear?
Yeah, takes a long time psychologically to get over it.
And also quite often, what happens is that you go back to normal, in inverted commas, and your hair's grown back, you're through the treatment, you've gone back to work, and then the psychological impact hits a bit.
And actually, if anybody's listening, and they know somebody who's gone through cancer treatment, you know, six to 12 months after, the treatment finishes can actually be the hardest and the toughest time.But there is a big thing around surgery.
Quite often women are offered surgery at the same time as breast cancer treatment.So say you have to have a mastectomy, they'll say we'll do surgery at the same time.And quite a lot of women take that option
at a time when they've been asked to make a decision that has really quite big and lasting physical impact, and they don't really realise what they're kind of signing up for.
And a lot of the surgery is really great, but some of the surgery really isn't great.And lots of women have left with a lot of scarring and a lot of uneven outcomes that really don't make them very happy.
Because we have brilliant technology, I had a prosthetic breast made, which is fantastic.So one of the most depressing things about coming out of breast cancer treatment when you have one breast, I decided not to have reconstruction.
But I was presented with the wall of boob.And you go in and you get from the NHS one boob.Bear in mind that it's flesh coloured, but white flesh coloured.
So if anybody with any different kind of skin tone slumped with this kind of unpleasant, quite nasty, saying that they have to wear in a pocket in a bra, which is the hitty.So all all nice underwear out the window.
And it's actually quite depressing and takes away your sexuality in a kind of way that I hadn't really figured.Anyway, I came across this company where you can have your existing boob 3D matched.
So they make you a boob that matches your remaining boob.It's made of material that kind of matches your chest wall because once you've had surgery you have a sort of bumpy chest wall and so it sits against your skin.
So it's a kind of external reconstruction and more people should know about it because it's a fantastic alternative to surgery.
And do you know why it's not offered to people more often then?
It's quite new technology.The way it's done is somebody scans you with an iPad.The graphics are amazing.So you see your kind of chest, the whole of your chest, but it should be available on the NHS.It would save the NHS so much money.
More and more when, as we get into 3D printing, I think these things are going to naturally become more accessible, but it should be known.
And there is something just slightly futuristic or even darkly comic about all of this.
I know, it's ridiculous.And I think it's a game changer.
OK, so alternative options after breast cancer should be better known.Your final choice is the daily Qigong, the ancient art of moving meditation.So how did you first get to hear about this routine?
Well, one of the things that happened when I got cancer was I realised that I had really put my own well-being, like so many of us do, down the bottom of my list. like so many of us are.And I came across Qigong, which is sort of the basis of Tai Chi.
We've all heard of Tai Chi.And it's a series of moving meditative movements.So I've always done a lot of yoga, but yoga is quite stretchy and quite difficult to do once you've had an operation when you're just recovering.Whereas Qigong, Qi being
energy or life force, gung bing practice.It's the art of trying to get your life force moving.And so, come rain, hail or shine, I am to be found out in my garden doing some moving meditation.And it's only kind of 15 minutes.
I think that it's really important that if you can, first thing in the morning, get up and get outside and do some kind of gentle exercise.
I also think so many of us jump out of bed and get straight into the hecticness of the day and look at our phones immediately or go down and start working immediately and actually if you go outside and you just look at the sky and you look at the leaves and you look at the grass and you take a breath to just be part
of the great nature around you.I think it's incredibly grounding.And the more you get to know it, the more it feels like a friend to me.And I found it life-changing in a way that nobody else would notice.My husband, my children, nobody would notice.
But for me, it's a really huge part of my wellness.
And have you encouraged friends and family to take up the routine as well?
Oh, yeah.I bang on it.Do they take any notice of me either?No, they don't. Hopefully, some lovely listener on your podcast might get, oh, that sounds like a good idea.It is a really good idea, but my husband and children don't agree.
But anyway, yes, I think it's wonderful.And, you know, you see people in China, you know, in the parks, people doing this lovely Tai Chi movements.And for longevity, it's a huge, it's a huge thing.
That's the final item on the list.So today we've had Isabella Beaton, how creative collaboration is a magical thing.How there is no perfect way to be a writer.
Breast Cancer Awareness Month, alternative options after breast cancer and the Daily Qigong. So out of these six choices, Josie, which one do you feel most strongly?Should be better though.
I mean, the qigong for sure.I mean, it's I think it's life changing.And I think that it underpins everything else, because without that, I can't be I can't be present enough to be creative.So it underpins everything.
So, yes, a little routine in the morning is the magical elixir of life.
Thank you very much to Josie Lloyd for her choices.We'll post links to all the topics discussed so you can decide for yourself whether they should indeed be better known.You can subscribe and listen to all our previous episodes at betterknown.co.uk.
My name is Ivan Wise and we look forward to talking to you again for the next episode of Better Known.
