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Hello, this is Let's Talk About Myths, baby!And I am your host, Liv.Here with... well, it's spooky, obviously, but it's also a compilation of past spooky.I...
I'm still in the process or rather far deeper into the process of preparing to move my entire life from Victoria to Toronto which like for reasonable countries sounds like a thing that you can just like do.
But for mine it means driving seven days or maybe eight depending on how long it takes us to get through some mountains. And so, you know, you know, I didn't have time to write another episode and I am.Yeah.So here we are.Here we are.
These are some of my favorite moments from past episodes from Spooky Season, both conversations and narrative. I don't need to convince you all how much I love spooky season, so here's just some of my favorite moments so you can enjoy them again.
But before we get right into that, I need you to submit your questions for the next Q&A episode.It's going to be in November, but I need to record it, like, soon.
because this podcast microphone has got to get packed ASAP, and it's not going to come out for, you know, a while.So please submit your questions at missbaby.com slash questions.
I would love to answer anything and everything you've got for the next Q&A episode, so please do that as soon as possible, because I don't know when I'm going to record, but... It'll be soon.
And until then, sit back, enjoy just some more of the best of the best of spooky season. The best spooky is mythological spooky.
But yeah, Jason's father, essentially when she's rejuvenating him, so basically he's about to die when they eventually get back there, he's about to die.So they're like, oh, you know what?Might as well save him.
So Jason begs Medea, like, hey, can you just save my dad, please?And she's like, well, Hecate wouldn't allow that.So now we've got Hecate's turning her back on her.So not only is Cupid like, no, I'm washing my hands.
Even Hecate is like, uh-uh, this is not for me. And she still does it.She's like, you know what, Hecate won't allow it, but I'm going to do it anyways.
So we've got this woman now who not only transcends the gods, but also transcends like moral authority and mortal authority because she's eventually, as we know, she doesn't listen to Jason anyways.
She doesn't care what Jason thinks eventually because she ends up killing her kids.So we end up with Medea who's neither human nor supernatural, but something else and something more terrifying because of that.
it's almost along the lines of seeing Medea as this fully formed character who we started off with as a young girl falling in love and by the end she is this this thing almost not even like characterized as a person because of the way that Ovid kind of displaces her from what we thought we knew
I love that.So I've definitely read the Medea sections in Metamorphoses, but it was a while ago now.
So the only thing that I can remember like really distinctly though, and I remember I like was talking about this once and it's like the thing I know specifically is from Ovid and no one else is that moment
when she either it's for the potion for Jason's father or or the when she's like about to kill the other king.President Peleus with like his daughters and everything like she rides around like the whole world on her dragon chariot and it's like the
most badass moment of anything ever like she goes everywhere and it's like I'm just riding on my dragons like just getting whatever potions I need so I always thought of her as like awesome from that but I'm realizing I don't actually remember any of like the actual characterization of her I just remember her riding around her dragon chariot
But that part is also so interesting because when you look at what Ovid says while she's traveling, she's basically, you know, lads torturing Greece through Greece.That's literally what's about to happen.
She like stops off and goes over all of these places and If you read it, he's actually mentioning places where things of either very disastrous forbidden love, ultimate monstrosity, or references to other uses of magic occur.
So, like, and some of these references are only found in Ovid, either because, you know, we don't have any, you know, sources back from the ancient world that tell these stories or because they're his own inventions.
So he's literally, as she's riding around on that chariot, he's literally saying, you know, look at all of these stories and references I can make up of utter monstrosity and think of Medea, because Medea is worse and she's my creation here.
So it's kind of like comparing and uniting all of those parts of the Mediterranean through her otherness and marginalization.
And we get this view of Medea, who is not only, you know, at that point, at the height of her monstrosity, literally, because she's like in the sky, but also because she's literally like, this is the point where she's murdered multiple people.
She's got so much blood on her hands, they're just red now. So we've got this view of Madea.
And then we've also got these like little anecdotes here and there, which are like stories of, oh, you know, oh, you know, do you not remember that story of like this person killing another person?Yeah.OK, let's move on to the next one.
And there's like 30 different references to different people and places in that little section.I have to reread this again.
I'm like, oh, my God, how do I not remember this?
I can't wait. It's so, so fun.
And one of my favourite references that he makes throughout the entirety of Medea's story, because there are a lot of other ones to Circe, because it kind of links Book 7 and Book 14, which, funnily enough, are seven books apart exactly.
So you've got two different halves of the Met.You've got one witch for each half.And that's almost like it's too much.We can't put any more witches. in this book, because that's just too much monstrosity.
So, you've got these two witches, equal distance apart, both very similar to each other, both the descendants of Helios, both able to wield magic, described as ethnically other, described as, you know, kind of close to the gods, but still very, very distant.
And you've got them on both halves of these stories, and one very firmly set in Greece, and the other actually quite close to Rome.So the location of Circe in Ovid's Met is actually in Sicily.So that itself is trippy.
Yeah, like they're making her Greek by making it like Magna Graeca, but then also like explicitly not.
So it's kind of like this, this closeness to Roan, but also it's like, OK, it's a father and us distance that, you know, we can we can breathe a little bit, but it's still terrifying because it's like she's no longer in this mythical island that we don't know about.
She's in Sicily.She can get to us.And that's the terrifying thing.
It's so interesting how he does that, because like, obviously, he's guiding us closer and closer towards the end of the book to, you know, actual history and Julius Caesar and Augustus.But in order to do that, he has to get closer to Rome.
He has to get closer to where the reader is and and real life and bring such a mythical character who's so terrifying. so close to Rome really makes those tensions between closeness and farness and marginalization and colonialization really pop.
The first thing you notice when you start looking at and specifically comparing witches in Greek myth to witches in Roman stories is the visual conjured between the two. In Greek myth, our famous witches are women like Circe, Medea, and Hecate.
They're powerful.Incredibly powerful.And important, if sometimes for the wrong reasons.They are goddesses, aside from Medea, though she is still divine, a descendant of gods.And they are, we are to believe, beautiful.
This might not be explicit for, say, Hecate, but it certainly is for Circe and Medea.They're beautiful and seductive and powerful.They are, in a word, awesome. And then, the Roman.
I won't dive too deep into the varied witches from Roman stories, but if you're curious then listen back to the episode I aired last year about Roman witches with my guest Maxwell Paul.That's where all of this started becoming really obvious to me.
Because Roman witches, well, not all of them, and typically appearing in poetry rather than explicit mythology like the Greek, are horrible. They're usually old, bent and broken and ugly, just crones.They're weird and gross.
They're always looking for a man or boys.And again, using weird and gross means.They're caricatures, often jokes to be laughed at, not goddesses capable of great and powerful things.
So when that's the general consensus on Roman witches in literature, then how does someone like Ovid handle two explicitly powerful witches whose stories are based in ancient Greece, where the very idea of witches and witchcraft is so explicitly different?
Well, today that's what we're going to look at.Enter Medea. I'm not going to recap the whole story of Medea, I can only assume you've listened to at least one of my many episodes on her.
A very simple reminder, she meets Jason in her homeland in the east, where the sun rises from, in Colchis.There she falls in love with him, though it is at the hands of Hera via Aphrodite and Eros or Cupid. It is divine love.
And it has to be because Jason is the worst.And so she leaves Colchis with him, returning to Greece where all of her wildest and murderiest shit goes down.
And of course, it's spooky season, so all the murderiest shit is exactly what we're concerned with today.
There are endless variations of what exactly happens when Jason and Medea arrive back in Yolkis after getting that famous golden fleece of theirs. Eulchis is the city where Jason is from, and so in these variations, is Jason's father already dead?
Is he still alive and very old and nearly dead?Do they kill Peleus, the king of Eulchis, who sent Jason on the quest in the first place?Or if they do kill Peleus, is it Medea who does it?Or is it Jason?
Seriously, it's like every author from Ancient Greece had a different take on this moment.It's wild.
But the version that Ovid goes with here is… well, it's not unique to Ovid, but oh oh oh does he elaborate on it and make Medea more witchy than we could ever imagine her to be.
See, the story Ovid chooses is that when Medea and Jason arrive back in Eulchis, Jason's father, whose name I hate trying to pronounce but is something like Eason, is very, very old, and Jason is worried about him.
He asks Medea to restore his father's youth.He even goes so far as to ask her to take some of his own years away in order to give them to his father. Medea, though, has a better idea.
She tells Jason that with Hecate's magic, she should be able to restore youth to his father without taking any of his years away.She is that powerful.
The ancient Greek versions of this bit are minimal, basically we just know that Medea restored some youth to Jason's father.Ovid though?Ovid does what Ovid does best.Drama.So Medea says, quote,
Now I have need of juices to renew the life of an old man, so that he can regain his youth, the years that he knew first.I know that you will help me.It is plain.The stars are glittering and not in vain.
Drawn by the yoked-winged dragons, a chariot is now at hand. Yeah.This is the moment I referenced in my conversation with Antonia because it's what stands out to me most.
Ovid has Medea hop in her dragon-drawn chariot and fly over the whole of the Greek world in search of ingredients. And yeah, this is entirely an invention by Ovid.
He likely took the existence of a dragon chariot from Euripides' play, but otherwise, this is all him.And boy, is it a saga to really emphasize not only Medea's power, but also the general magic of it all.
Medea flies all over, picking up ingredients along the way, with little references peppered throughout.Like the herb she pulled that gave new life, which Ovid says was, quote, not yet well known for what it did to Glaucus.
Which, yeah, we'll get to that.Just the very scent of this powerful herb sloughed off the years from the dragons pulling Medea's chariot.That's how powerful it was.
When she returns home to Eolkus, she builds an altar, but she very intentionally builds it on the other side of the home's threshold, not within it.That's important.That and she builds two altars actually, one to Hecate and one to Hebe, youth.
When everything's prepared, she begins to perform her spells, calling to the gods of the underworld, quote, the monarch of the shades and she whom he had stolen as his bride, his dark realms queen.
What a badass way to describe Hades and Persephone, even if it has a little unfortunate reminder of their origins.Medea continues with her magic, with Ovid describing everything she does in great detail.
So many bits and pieces just laying out Jason's father as though he's already dead, forcing everyone else to leave her alone so they can't witness the magic itself.
Then, when everyone's gone, the real magic starts, and Medea is described as being disheveled like a main ad.She soaks torches in blood, lighting them and purifying the body while her potions bubble away nearby.
The potion itself is a medley, the herbs she found in Greece in Thessaly, and quote, stones from the far east and sands the ocean washed up on the beach, and hoarfrost gathered when the moon was full, and filthy wings, flesh still attached, of screech owls, together with the guts of a werewolf which has the power to change its savage snout and show a human face.
Where did she find the guts of a werewolf?It also has the liver of a stag, the skin of Libyan snakes, and the head and beak of a 90-year-old crow.And then she is immediately referred to as a barbarian.
that Medea's potion is spelled out so distinctly, featuring ingredients from foreign places, from the east, and Libya, and beyond, and animals that would not normally be sacrificed, or would even be revered at times, like snakes, before she's even immediately referred to as a barbarian?
None of this is coincidental.In fact, it's exactly what Antonia is studying. Medea is being depicted as explicitly foreign, using explicitly foreign means to restore life to Jason's father.
She is a barbarian, not a Greek, or in this case, not a Greek and not a Roman.She is Other, both in terms of her origins and the means by which she's working with this magic.
She may not be a Roman witch in the way they're usually depicted, old and gross and frankly just weird, but she is very much othered and foreign and scary.
And the scary is just beginning, because once Medea's potion is ready, she slits Jason's father's throat and watches as all of his blood drains from his body.
And then she replaces his blood with the bubbling and horribly disturbing, probably smelled horrific, potion. Of course, this is not the only instance of Medea using incredibly descriptive and disturbing magic.
She does something similar, if much more murderous, to the king of Yolkis who sent Jason off in the first place, Pellaeus.But there she uses her wild and foreign barbarian magic to have Pellaeus's own daughters murder him, tear him to pieces.
There, surprisingly, Ovid isn't as detailed.He's much more concerned with her actual gathering of ingredients, her travels themselves.Still, I am trying to fit Ovid's descriptions of both Medea and Cersei into this episode, so we must move forward.
Soon enough you'll hear me recite the whole of it on the podcast, just a few more books of Ovid's metamorphoses to go.So, up next in Medea's Ovidian run is to flee from Eulchis after the death of the king Peleus.
Obviously she can't stay there, and so in the traditional mythology, after this moment she travels to Corinth with Jason where they live, at least for a while, quite happily.
Here, though, Ovid presents us with another wildly elaborate and invented journey of Medea.
Now, geographically, Iolkis is in Thessaly, which is northern-ish part of Greece, or at least it's north of Corinth, where Jason and Medea will eventually end up, in order for them to keep on with the more famous aspects of their story, all the business from Euripides' play.
Corinth is the town just beyond the Isthmus, the piece of land that connects the Peloponnesian peninsula to mainland Greece.
I'm telling you this because, while the two aren't particularly far apart, especially if you're riding in a dragon-drawn chariot like the badass queen witch that you are, and yet, Medea's journey takes her all the fuck over.
And this is where she gets an overhead view of so many famous moments of transformation, as recounted by Ovid.
Medea first flies over Mount Pelion and then Mount Othrys, where we're told a man named Karambas was saved from the deluge sent by the gods.
Next, she makes her way across the whole of the Aegean, flying over a city in Anatolia, modern Turkey, called Pitani, where she saw a dragon that had been transformed to stone.
Then Ida, by Troy, where we're told Bacchus hid as a stag, and she saw where Paris was buried under the sands of Troy.She saw where Hecuba had been transformed by Hecate, becoming one of the goddess's terrifying dogs.
She saw the island of Kos and the city of Euripolis where, quote, women sprouted horns while Hercules and his invading ranks withdrew.This is a city where Heracles landed once, in a storm, but was mistaken for a pirate and attacked.
Do I understand the reference of women spreading horns?No.That feels very Ovid.But the list goes on.Next, he speaks of the Telkanese, the people mentioned in Friday's episode.These are a group famous for magic wizardry.
Ovid says they, quote, were submerged by Jove because their gaze infected anything they saw, despising them.Jove called on Neptune's aid and drowned them all within his brother's waves.
Next, Medea saw the vale where the young boy, Cichnus, was transformed into a swan.Next, she saw an island sacred to Leto, Latona in the Latin, where a king and queen had been transformed into birds.
And after that, she saw Mount Kylene where, quote, fate would have depraved Menefron mate with his own mother, the incestuous way of wild beasts.
So yeah, that's a story I hadn't heard before, and it seems to be mostly here in Ovid and other late Roman sources as simply a very gross and disturbing aside.It's lovely.
Continuing on, Medea looked down and saw the river god Cephasis, whose grandson had been transformed by Apollo.And so the river god wept as Medea looked down on him.
And she saw another distraught father, Eumelus, whose children had been transformed into birds for their crimes. And with a last look at the traumas of Earth, Medea reached Corinth.Medea's journey to Corinth is fascinating.
First, it's entirely Ovid-invented, and it's clearly being used as a way of providing an overview, literally, of a bunch of other transformation stories that Ovid wants to include but clearly doesn't have enough narrative to actually fit them in.
I feel you, Ovid. Sometimes there just isn't enough story to be told.But this is his way around it, featuring these minor reference points.
They're all about either magic or trauma, the gods transforming people as punishment, and Medea, a woman who's just committed multiple murders, looking down at these traumas from above. It's really interesting.
Generally Ovid's Metamorphoses is interesting in its own right, if only because it was intentionally written.For the most part, the mythological sources from Ancient Greece weren't written intentionally.
I talk about it all the time, but they were oral storytelling traditions that were eventually, in some form or another, put into written words so that they survive for us today.
but they typically weren't written with any kind of intent or narrative structure in mind.So we end up with a kind of mishmash of everything.Some stories have all the detail in the world and others have like half a sentence.
Meanwhile, Ovid is the opposite.This was a written book.Written as a book, an epic poem, a story, retelling stories of transformation.
It's mostly inspired by Greek myth, but there are also so many moments like the ones I've just listed where it might be Ovid inventing something entirely, or he might have been working off of a source we no longer have, but either way he was expanding upon and changing the stories to fit his intended narrative.
Medea specifically is a great example of this.
Both of the moments of her flying over the Greek world in her dragon-drawn chariot are almost certainly invented by Ovid, and absolutely he invented her seeing all those transformations below, because that's the whole point of his book.
Anyway, it's beautiful and weird, and this Medea is something special.She's a murderous witch, yes, and far more witchy than her Greek tradition.
Far more about the bubble bubble toil and trouble of it all, the witch cackling over her potion, feeding horrifying ingredients into it, and then tossing in entire human bodies.That's Ovid's Medea.
But Ovid's Medea also takes a tour of the Greek world in her chariot, just kind of watching.Ovid's Medea contains multitudes.But what about Ovid's Circe?
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They came from every quarter and flitted round the trench with a strange kind of screaming sound that made me turn pale with fear.
When I saw them coming I told the men to be quick and flay the carcasses of the two dead sheep and make burnt offerings of them, and at the same time to repeat prayers to Hades and to Persephone,
But I sat where I was with my sword drawn and would not let the poor feckless ghosts come near the blood till Tiresias should have answered my questions.
The first ghost that came was that of my comrade Elpenor, for he had not yet been laid beneath the earth.We had left his body unwaked and unburied in Cersei's house, for we had too much else to do.I was very sorry for him and cried when I saw him.
Elpenor, said I, how did you come down here into this gloom and darkness?You have got here on foot quicker than I have with my ship. Sir, he answered with a groan, it was all bad luck and my own unspeakable drunkenness.
I was lying asleep on the top of Cersei's house and never thought of coming down again by the great staircase but fell right off the roof and broke my neck.So my soul came down to the House of Hades.
And now I beseech you, by all those whom you have left behind, although they are not here, by your wife, by the father who brought you up when you were a child, and by Telemachus, who is the one hope of your house, do what I shall now ask you.
I know that when you leave this limbo you will again hold your ship for the Aeion Island.Do not go thence leaving me, unwaked and unburied, behind you, or I may bring heaven's anger upon you.
But burn me with whatever armour I have, build a barrow for me on the sea shore that may tell people in days to come what a poor unlucky fellow I was, and plant over my grave the oar I used to row with. when I was yet alive and with my mess-mates.
And I said, my poor fellow, I will do all that you have asked of me.
Thus then did we sit and hold sad talk with one another, I on the one side of the trench with my sword held over the blood, and the ghost of my comrade saying all this to me from the other side.
Then came the ghost of my dead mother Anticlea, daughter to Otilicus, I had left her alive when I set out for Troy and was moved to tears when I saw her.
But even so, for all my sorrow I would not let her come near the blood till I had asked my questions of Tiresias. Then came also the ghost of Theban Tiresias, with his golden scepter in his hand.
He knew me, and said, Odysseus, noble son of Laertes, why, poor man, have you left the light of day and come down to visit the dead in this sad place?
Stand back from the trench and withdraw your sword that I may drink of the blood and answer your questions truly. So I drew back and sheathed my sword, whereon, when he had drank of the blood, he began with his prophecy.
"'You want to know,' said he, "'about your return home, "'but Heaven will make this hard for you."'I do not think you will escape the eye of Poseidon, "'who still nurses his bitter grudge against you "'for having blinded his son.
"'Still, after much suffering, you may get home "'if you can restrain yourself and your companions "'when your ship reaches the Thranakian island, "'where you will find the sheep and the cattle "'belonging to the sun, "'who sees and gives ear to everything.
If you leave those flocks unharmed and think of nothing but of getting home, you may yet, after much hardship, reach Ithaca.But if you harm them, then I forewarn you of the destruction, both of your ship and of your men.
Even though you may yourself escape, you will return in bad plight after losing all your men, and in another man's ship and you will find trouble in your house which will be overrun by high-handed people who are devouring your substance under the pretext of paying court and making presents to your wife.
When you get home, you will take your revenge on these suitors, and after you have killed them by force or fraud in your own house, you may take a well-made oar and carry it on and on, till you come to a country where the people have never heard of the sea and do not even mix salt with their food, nor do they know anything about ships and oars that are the wings of a ship.
I will give you this certain token which cannot escape your notice.A wayfarer will meet you and will say it must be a winnowing shovel that you should have gotten upon your shoulder.
On this you must fix the oar in the ground and sacrifice a ram, a bull, and a boar to Poseidon.Then go home and offer hecatombs to all the gods in heaven and one after the other.
As for yourself, death shall come to you from the sea and your life shall ebb away very gently when you are full of years and peace of mind and your people shall bless you.All that I have said will come true.
This, I answered, must be as it may please heaven.But tell me and tell me true.I see my poor mother's ghost close by us.She is sitting by the blood without saying a word, and though I am her own son, she does not remember me and speak to me.
Tell me, sir, how I can make her know me. That, said he, I can soon do.Any ghost that you let taste of the blood will talk with you like a reasonable being.But if you do not let them have any blood, they will go away again.
On this the ghost of Tiresias went back to the house of Hades, for his prophesying had now been spoken.But I sat still where I was until my mother came up and tasted the blood.
Then she knew me at once and spoke fondly to me, saying, My son, how did you come down to this abode of darkness while you are still alive?
It is a hard thing for the living to see these places, for between us and them there are great and terrible waters, and there is Oceanus which no man can cross on foot, but he must have a good ship to take him.
Are you all this time trying to find your way home from Troy, and have you never yet got back to Ithaca, nor seen your wife in your own house? Mother, said I, I was forced to come here to consult the ghost of the Theban prophet Tiresias.
I have never yet been near the Achaean land, nor set foot on my native country, and I have had nothing but one long series of misfortunes from the very first day that I set out with Agamemnon for Ilias, the land of noble steeds, to fight the Trojans.
But tell me, and tell me true, in what way did you die?Did you have a long illness, or did heaven vouchsafe you a gentle, easy passage to eternity?Tell me also about my father, and the son whom I left behind me.
Is my property still in their hands, or has someone else got hold of it, who thinks that I shall not return to claim it? Tell me again what my wife intends doing, and in what mind she is.
Does she live with my son and guard my estate securely, or has she made the best match she could and married again?"
My mother answered, Your wife still remains in your house, but she is in great distress of mind and spends her whole time in tears, both night and day.
No one as yet has got possession of your fine property, and Telemachus still holds your lands undisturbed. He has to entertain largely, as of course he must, considering his position as a magistrate, and how everyone invites him.
Your father remains at his old place in the country and never goes near the town.He has no comfortable bed nor bedding.
In the winter he sleeps on the floor in front of the fire with the men and goes about all in rags, but in summer, when the warm weather comes on again, He lies out in the vineyard on a bed of vine leaves, thrown anyhow upon the ground.
He grieves continually about your never having come home and suffers more and more as he grows older. As for my own end, it was in this way.
Heaven did not take me swiftly and painlessly in my own house, nor was I attacked by any illness, such as those that generally wear people out and kill them.
But my longing to know what you were doing and the force of my affection for you, this is what was the death of me. Then I tried to find some way of embracing my poor mother's ghost.
Thrice I sprang towards her and tried to clasp her in my arms, but each time she flitted from my embrace as it were a dream or a phantom.And being touched to the quick, I said to her, mother, why do you not stay still when I would embrace you?
If we could throw our arms around one another, we might find sad comfort in the sharing of our sorrows, even in the house of Hades. Does Persephone want to lay a still further load of grief upon me by mocking me with a phantom only?
My son, she answered, most ill-fated of all mankind, it is not Persephone that is beguiling you, but all people are like this when they are dead.The sinews no longer hold the flesh and bones together.
These perish in the fierceness of consuming fire as soon as life have left the body, and the soul flits away as though it were a dream.
Now, however, go back to the light of day as soon as you can and note all these things that you may tell them to your wife hereafter. Thus did we converse, and then Persephone sent up the ghosts of the wives and daughters of the most famous men.
They gathered in crowds about the blood, and I considered how I might question them severally.In the end, I deemed that it would be best to draw the keen black blade that hung by my sturdy thigh, and keep them all from drinking the blood at once.
So they came up one after the other, and each one, as I questioned her, told me her race and lineage. The first I saw was Tyro.She was daughter of Salmonius and wife of Cretheus, the son of Aeolus.
She fell in love with the river Anippeus, who is much the most beautiful river in the whole world.Once when she was taking a walk by his side, as usual, Poseidon
Disguised as her lover lay with her at the mouth of the river, and a huge blue wave arched itself like a mountain over them to hide both woman and God, whereon he loosed her virgin girdle and laid her in a deep slumber.
when the god had accomplished the deed of love.He took her hand in his own and said, "'Tira, rejoice in all good will.The embraces of the gods are not fruitless, and you will have fine twins about this time, twelve months.Take great care of them.
I am Poseidon, so now go home, but hold your tongue and do not tell anyone.'" Then he dived under the sea, and she, in due course, bore Peleus and Nellius, who both of them served Jove with all their might.
Peleus was a great breeder of sheep and lived in Aeolcus, but the other lived in Pelos.The rest of her children were by Cretheus, namely Ison, Phares, and Amithion, who was a mighty warrior and a charioteer.
Next to her I saw Antiope, daughter of Asopus, who could boast of having slept in the arms of even Jove himself, and who bore him two sons, Amphion and Zethus.
These founded Thebes with its seven gates and built a wall all around it, for strong though they were they could not hold Thebes till they had walled it.
Then I saw Alcmene, the wife of Amphitryon, who also bore to Zeus indomitable Heracles, and Megara, who was daughter to great king Creon and married the redoubtable son of Amphitryon.
I also saw fair Epicaste, Jocasta, mother of king Oedipodes, Oedipus, whose awful lot it was to marry her own son without suspecting it.
He married her after killing his father, but the gods proclaimed the whole story to the world, whereon he remained king of Thebes in great grief, for the spite of the gods that had borne him.
But Epicasty went to the house of the mighty jailer Hades, having hanged herself for grief, and the avenging spirits haunted him, as for an outraged mother, to his ruin bitterly thereafter.
Then I saw Cloris, whom Nellius married for her beauty, having given priceless presents for her.She was the youngest daughter to Amphion, son of Eacis and king of Minion, Orchomenos, and was queen in Pylos.
She bore Nestor, Chromius, and Periclaiminus, and she also bore that marvelously lovely woman Pyro. who was wooed by all the country round.
But Nellius would only give her to him, who should raid the cattle of Iphicles from the grazing grounds of Phylacae.And this was a hard task.The only man who would undertake to raid them was a certain excellent seer.
But the will of heaven was against him, for the rangers of the cattle caught him and put him in prison,
Nevertheless, when a full year had passed and the same season came round again, Iphicles set him at liberty after he had expounded all the oracles of heaven.Thus, then, was the will of Zeus accomplished.
And I saw Leta, the wife of Tyndareus, who bore him two famous sons, Castor, breaker of horses, and Polydeuces, the mighty boxer.
Both these heroes are lying under the earth, though they are still alive, for by a special dispensation of Zeus, they die and come to life again, each one of them every other day throughout all time, and they have the high rank of gods.
After I saw Ifimidiah, wife of Elias, who boasted the embrace of Poseidon.She bore two sons, Otus and Ephialtes, but both were short-lived.They were the finest children that were ever born in this world and the best-looking.
Orion only accepted, for at nine years old they were nine fathoms high and measured nine cubits round the chest.
They threatened to make war with the gods at Olympus and tried to set Mount Ossa on the top of Mount Olympus and Mount Pelion on the top of Ossa, that they might scale heaven itself.
And they would have done it too if they had been grown up, but Apollo, son of Leto, killed both of them before they had got so much as a sign of hair upon their cheeks or chin.
Then I saw Phaedra, and Procris, and Faer Iriadne, daughter of the magician Minos, whom Theseus was carrying off from Crete to Athens, but he did not enjoy her, for before he could do so, Artemis killed her in the island of Dya, on account of what Dionysus had said against her.
I also saw Myra, and Clymene, and hateful Erypheli, who sold her own husband for gold.
To Molinui, fumigation from aromatics, I call, Molinui, saffron-veiled Turini, Who from Persephone dread, venerable queen, Mixed with Zeus' cronion, arose near where Coquitus' mournful river flows, When, under Pluton's semblance, Zeus divine deceived With guileful art's dark Persephone,
Two-bodied from Pluton, dark from Zeus, ethereal bright.Men by night inspire When seen in spectred forms, with terrors dire.Now darkly visible, involved in night, Perspicuous now they meet the fearful sight.
Chthonian queen, expel wherever found The soul's mad fears to earth's remotest bound, With holy aspect on our incense shine, And bless thy mystics and thy rites divine.
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Let's talk about Persephone.Again, because gods know I've talked about her before, but there's always more to learn, more sources to look at, more nuance to dive into.
Especially with a woman like the dread goddess of the underworld, one I know is most, if not a huge swath, of your favorites.Persephone.
The idea of Persephone as Goddess of the Dead, Dread Queen of the Underworld, Wife of Hades, comes from as far back as Homer.
What this means is that, in the very earliest mythology that survives for us today, Persephone is not only the Queen of the Underworld and Goddess of the Dead, but she is always just as powerful as her husband, Hades.
In the Odyssey, you might remember, it's Persephone who allows Odysseus to interact with that realm of the dead, to speak with those who have already passed on, to learn from them.It's Persephone who controls the dead, even as far back as Homer.
Meanwhile, what's equally interesting is that Homer doesn't ever actually note that this Persephone, this queen of the dead and wife of Hades, is also the daughter of Demeter.She's mentioned as the daughter of Zeus once, but not Demeter explicitly.
That isn't to say that she wasn't understood to be Demeter's daughter at this time or even in those sources when this was all being developed, it's just possible it doesn't come up.It's usually the father who's referenced anyway.
Still, it's interesting to note these little variations.Of course, by the time of Hesiod and his Theogony, Persephone as Queen of the Underworld is absolutely the same Persephone as Kore, her other name, daughter of Demeter.
Now Cori is Persephone's alternate name, her original name maybe?Because it means maiden, it means girl.She is a girl, a maiden, until she's abducted by Hades and brought beneath the earth.
And then she is very much Persephone, a name which means bringer of death.Fucking badass.
And speaking of that husband, as I've told you in past episodes, the story of their marriage comes almost entirely from the Homeric Hymn to Demeter, one of the most beautiful and heartbreaking pieces of ancient literature that we have.
There are only a handful of Homeric Hymns that are long, like this one, that give us deep and detailed insights into these origins of the gods.
This hymn tells the story from Demeter's point of view, but it's also the only POV we have, and so it's the one I personally work off of.I say that because every time I dive into the story of Persephone and Hades it gets… contentious. I get it.
People love this couple.They see this as romantic.So you have every right to do that, to see it in whatever way you choose.No judgment.But I'm just here to bring you the sources that exist.And they are not kind to this relationship.
Hades abducts Persephone.He opens up the earth beneath her feet and he grabs her, snatches her, throwing her into his chariot and bringing her beneath the earth while she screams out in terror.
There, beneath the earth, in this underworld, he assaults her and makes her his wife. All of this, though, while tragic and horrifying, is sanctioned by Persephone's father, Zeus, and thus, technically speaking, it is totally above board.It is legal.
It is a legal marriage that they have. Demeter, though, spends years in search of her daughter and causes the whole of the Earth to fall fallow in her sadness.
Finally, she convinces Zeus to let her see her daughter, and in the end the compromise is that Persephone can spend half the year in the world of the living as goddess of spring with her mother Demeter, and half the year in the underworld as goddess of the dead with her husband Hades.
This, as every version will tell you, is understood to be why the Earth has seasons.
I've told the story in way more detail in my episode on Persephone and Demeter, so I'm not going into all the details now, but one thing I have learned recently, thanks to Dr. Ellie McEnroberts, whose name will come up often in this episode, is that Persephone is very likely under the earth, in the underworld, with her husband, in the summer, not in the winter as is usually described in the stories.
It may seem like the earth is sad in the winter, that this is when Demeter is in mourning, missing her daughter, but in fact in Greece it's when everything has a chance to grow, only to be harvested in the springtime before the world gets too hot for much else to grow.
Ellie did a wonderful TikTok on this, which is how I learned it, so I've linked to her TikTok in this episode's description if you want to learn more or just so so much more about Persephone and the underworld broadly.Ellie is your person.
For all your sakes though, I won't dwell on the origins of Persephone and Hades' relationship.Instead, let's look at their time as a married couple. These two have an interesting role in the mythology.
They are both a vital part of it and basically have no stories of their own.The only detailed story featuring the couple as main characters is that Homer came to Demeter, and even still that's mostly about Demeter.
And yet they appear in countless, and I mean countless, other myths. And that is simply because if you're traveling to the world of the dead, you're going to encounter Hades and Persephone.So they're in the Odyssey.
Or rather, Persephone is, as I mentioned earlier.They're in the story of Orpheus and Eurydice.They're in Heracles' story of stealing Cerberus.
Persephone, of course, features heavily in Theseus's absurd attempt to abduct her alongside his shittiest friend Pirithous.
In that case, Persephone wasn't having any of that shit and punished them by strapping them to chairs in the underworld and just leaving them there.
Anytime anyone has dealings with the dead, or the world of the dead, the underworld itself, anytime anyone completes a katabasis, that is, a descent to the underworld, there's Persephone, sitting in her throne alongside Hades, rocking that life as dread goddess of the dead.
But stories?Yeah, they're not really in any stories.Which, frankly, is fascinating in itself.It's another case of priorities, you know?
Like, in the wider realm of oral storytelling, featuring stories taking place heavily in the world of the dead, or featuring as main characters the gods of the dead, that just wasn't a priority.
People were concerned with the living, with the world of their own, where the heroes and gods interact with living mortals. A catabass is here or there is great, but a detailed story entirely set in the underworld?It's much less fun.
So instead we're left with loads of little details, anecdotes featuring our girl Persephone.She's come up in countless episodes of mine, but we don't really have much that just features her, specifically.
Of course, there is also the Eleusinian mysteries to contend with.While we don't necessarily have extensive stories from those mysteries, Persephone featured heavily.
However, those stories are for another day, a whole series when I have the ability and time to go into full-blown obsessive research mode.Until then, this is the Persephone that we have outside of that mystery cult.
She and Hades live in their realm of the dead, ruling over the deceased, and briefly interacting with the living when they dare to enter that realm.What do we know about their relationship in the traditional mythology of Ancient Greece?
They are childless.Unlike most of the Olympian couples, other than maybe Aphrodite and Hephaestus, these two don't have any children between them.This is, you might imagine, closely related to the whole death thing.
When you're the king and queen of the dead, there isn't a lot of life to be had.And when Persephone is up on Earth, giving life, acting as goddess of spring, Hades is nowhere to be found.And so they live as a childless couple.
Frankly, it's one of the only things I personally like about them as a couple.Live that childless life, rock on, Persephone.Except, okay, fine, except I know many of you are just screaming a name at me right now, just yelling it with all your souls.
Because like I said, in that traditional realm of Greek myth, these two have no kids.But as I taught you so recently, there's a whole other realm of weird, very non-traditional Greek mythology.Those damned Orphics. Fucking Orphics, man.
Just screwing with everything we think we know about Greek myth.Screwing with everything I think I know about Greek myth, specifically.Because everything I just told you about how Persephone and Hades are famous for not having any children at all?
Toss that out of your brains, because I'm about to share the Orphic variation.The story of their daughter, Melinui.That's right.I finally said it outside of the opening of this podcast.Melinui.
Molinui is absolutely fascinating, but for reasons I have yet to figure out fully myself.Because here's the thing about Molinui.She is really, barely, barely in the mythology at all, let alone that it's just Orphic.Like, at all.
I will get into what exists about her, don't worry, but first I want to try to comprehend her now.
I don't- I don't dive into pagan worship on this show because it's a minefield that I'm just not prepared to get into, so to be clear I'm not talking about modern Hellenistic worship in this case, just the general idea of millenui.
When I tweeted asking for spooky season suggestions, I had probably like at least 5 people suggest I cover millenui.
And so when I saw her name mentioned so many times by my followers I thought holy shit like what have I been missing that I've barely heard this name before? I got 5 people suggesting I cover her for spooky season and I've never heard of her.
So I went looking.Theoi.com, my life source, is nearly blank.She's so missing from ancient sources that they have nothing on her.
Then I decided I wanted to use her on a TikTok, but discovered I couldn't find a single ancient visual representation of her or anything other than modern illustrations.But there were so many modern illustrations of her.
So now I'm fascinated by where is she appearing in pop culture or something that people online are so aware of her, but when the ancient sources are almost non-existent?Fucking fascinating.Did I look into it further?
No, I was too busy looking for ancient stuff on her, but I'm intrigued.Still, I am me, so I stick to ancient sources.And what are those ancient sources? Well, there is one.One.And that's this Orphic hymn that I read to you at the top of this episode.
That appears to be basically it for Milinui.I think her name appears on like a tablet somewhere.That's it.There's some interpretation that we can get into though, into this hymn, and we can learn a bit more about her that way.But still, it's Orphic.
So thank the fucking gods I've already explained the realm of Orphism to you all.So let's just talk about Milinui and how she is Orphic as hell.
Milinui was a goddess, or a nymph of the underworld, whose job it was to bring nightmares and madness upon the people of Earth.
She has some interesting similarities to the Erenaways, the Furies, and she is most importantly, though, a daughter of Persephone. Because remember, it is only in the Orphic tradition that Persephone ever has any children.
In the traditional widespread of mythology of Ancient Greece, she is, she completely is childless.Whereas in the Orphic, she has Molinui and Zagreus.
Again, that she is childless in the traditional mythology really makes sense because when you're the king and queen of the dead, you're not particularly ready to be bringing life into the world. But then, Melinui is different.
She is this daughter of Persephone and Zeus, but also Hades.Yeah.So the thing about the Orphic tradition, too, is how much they loved a good duality.And incest.They loved incest a lot. I think they saw it differently, I won't try to explain it.
But this duality is what we're most concerned with here.In the Orphic tradition, Hades and Zeus get conflated.
They become a kind of singular god who inhabits both the world of the dead and that of the living, with the differences between the two gods manifesting depending on where he's ruling at any given time.
The Orphic tradition was a lot less concerned with stories in the way that we think of Greek mythology, and much more about conceptualizing, like, greater, bigger ideas.
If you're doing the family tree math here, too, this does mean that Persephone, in the Orphic tradition, is married to her father-uncle, and also has a child with that same father-uncle that is both father and uncle, and, of course, as I always like to remind you, Hades is her uncle on both sides.
Because what did I say about the incest? Melinui was born on the banks of the Cocytus River, the River of Wailing, in the depths of the Underworld.
We honestly though know so little about her beyond where she was born, there, in the Underworld, and who she's the daughter of.But being the daughter of this dual Hades-Zeus character means that she embodied both sides of that, or those gods?
That she had influences from both the world of the living and that of the dead. This is sometimes translated in a way that is super problematic now.
It's translated as her physicality having both white and black skin, which is majorly ick because it's explicitly linking dark skin to evil in a way that ancient Greek did not. but the translations do.
I wanted to bring it up because it is inherent to translations more recently but also farther back.It's not from the ancient sources.
More newer appropriate translations have her as a dual goddess inhabiting the lightness of Olympus and the physical darkness of the underworld with nothing to do with her skin tone or color.
I actually adjusted my reading at the beginning of this episode to reflect this cuz we're not here to perpetuate something like that.That translation was from like the 18th century so you just know that dude was putting racism into it.
In lighter news, what else do we know about Molinui?Well, there are theories that maybe she was a kind of representation of Hecate, or that she facilitated some movement to the underworld, kind of like Hermes, except
Because she's explicitly linked to nightmares, this adds a kind of nefarious quality to her.But besides that, there really is nothing.She's the subject of this one Orphic hymn which doesn't really tell a story, just makes some statements about her.
It's frustrating, yes, but as I've said so many times before, it's also what makes Greek myth so utterly fascinating.Like, what did they think about Melinui that we don't know?Did she appear in stuff that wasn't Orphic that we don't have?
What about her broadly is lost?Was she more important than we think?Was she featured in more stories?Or was she like so many minor deities?Deities where really all we know about them is the basics of the role they played in the world.
Like Nike, or Hypnos, these gods that are just concepts more than characters.Regardless of all these wild questions, Melanie Wee is pretty damn spooky and badass, just bringing nightmares wherever she goes.Even with how little we know about her.
And it was talking about a temple to Hades in Ellis.
The cult at Ellis.Yeah.Yes.
So I desperately want to hear more about that because I read that and was like, holy shit, like this is a wild little passage to be reading.
Well, I mean, like I can't really tell you more than is in the passage.Fair.It's a temple which is opened once a year.
and only the priest is allowed to enter because going in to the Temple of Hades is going in to Hades itself and you cannot like continually die.
The thing that I find the most interesting about that passage, it is in Pausanias and it's the only time that Pausanias calls Hades Hades and not Pluton.
And I think that's really interesting because I think perhaps it indicates that this is a very old cult, that it is very stable.
in its practice and which kind of makes sense right when you only have one person really who is doing the majority of the participation and handing that on to the next person there's not even over large amounts of time there's not really a lot of space for innovation and even where there is innovation
it's not necessarily something which is considered change because you're talking about one person kind of handing on to the next person to the next person to the next person.
And I don't think that Pausanias says this but in my mind it's a hereditary cult.I think that that like maybe is like my own head canon. for it, but it makes sense to me.
But yeah, I think it kind of shows that this is like a very old, sacred practice.And of course, there is the link too, with the Necromancian at Ellis.On the river Acheron, obvious links to the Acheron of the underworld.
I didn't know there was a real Acheron.
There is.It is in Ellis.Oh my gosh.And in a little town called Thesprontia, I want to say, and there's a temple complex there or a building complex there that kind of seems to indicate
a movement around in which you know it has been theorized and I have a couple of times given papers about this using a guided meditation at the start and actually it's the
the passage that I use for this is the passage that's right at the front of my Underworld Gods book about the necromantic experience.You go in, you are given like into a very low light situation, perhaps even dark, for several days.
The only other person that you come in contact with is the priest who brings you food and drink.You can hear from inside the building complex, you can hear the running water.You're given foods that have mild toxicity, perhaps
that might facilitate hallucination.At some point the priest decides that you're ready to go on to the next step, brings you inside a tiny lamb, I was about to say a tiny sheep and I remembered there's a real word for that, a lamb.
You take the lamb in, you dig a pit, you sacrifice the lamb, drain the blood into the pit, which I hope is kind of recalling... Did you see my face?A Christian sort of sacrificial lamb blood pit. Immediately I was like, Odysseus does this?Yeah.
And various sort of other things, perhaps honey.And then you burn incense or something else.It seems unlikely that you would butcher and burn the lamb, but there is an idea of something that creates smoke.
which obviously when you're in an enclosed space is very overwhelming. at some point around this time you are either given or you pick up some stones of some kind.
As you keep walking around there's a point in which you have to kind of throw the stones as you, I assume obviously we've got no evidence for this, but like pray and do various kind of other things and then you get into the main chamber of the building complex
in which you present your question to the dead, whoever it is that you have tried to call up.
Now this is all obviously like a reconstruction based on like the archaeological evidence of things being found in places and like burning on the buildings and things like that but what's really interesting about this is there's the same kind of
a pulley like large crane pulley structure behind the almost a false wall as you would have behind the stage at the theatre.
So you know one suggestion has been that perhaps the priest like facilitates your oracular experience with the dead by like sending ghosts, wooden ghosts down for you to talk to.
I am appreciative, I guess.My brain is trying to say things.I did a thing over the past couple weeks, which was irresponsible and a little bit ridiculous.
It was planned and booked before I decided to move across the country and uproot mine and a friend's life.And so, you know, but I'm going to have to announce it.I'm going to make a whole big show out of it.
So I won't say it yet, but it's leading to a lot of ridiculous brain fog.Or rather, just I feel like a new mom only with no children anywhere near me.Thank God.Let's Taco Miss Baby is written and produced by me, Liv Albert.
Mikaela Pengawish is the Hermes to My Olympians, the producer.Select music in this episode was by Luke Chaos.You heard our next episode of Hermes Historia yesterday, and you have another one coming next week while we
Smooth out how we're running these before I get Makayla a better microphone.All that stuff is to come.The podcast is part of the iHeart Podcast network.Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Sign up for the new newsletter at missbaby.com slash newsletter.I will be keeping everyone up to date with loads of new and exciting things there. I am Liv and I love this shit.Truly.Especially when it's spooky.
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Let's Talk About Myths, Baby! Greek & Roman Mythology Retold
