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We'll tinker with it.We'll toy with it.We'll do enough to kind of tee hee hee and believe me, I'll doodle just to lighten the topic.I'll throw stupid, silly jokes out.
I'll keep it irreverent and light because we all have to laugh at the absurdity of it.And then we're going to flip the script pretty fast from what could be dour and morbid, which, I mean, let's be honest, it is.It ultimately sucks.
And then, but move that fast into, okay, and so now what do you feel motivated to do with your time?
So that you don't end up getting to the end and feeling like maybe you didn't do it justice, or that you have those deathbed regrets, which to me is, I think my biggest fear, I mean, other than spiders.
Today, we have Jodi Wellman on the show.Jodi is an author, executive coach, and an expert on resiliency.In this episode, we discuss her very interesting book, You Only Die Once, how to make it to the end with no regrets.
The title of the book basically sums up what we discussed in this episode.I really hope this episode inspires you to make the most of what you have and live your life fully and meaningfully.
I really adore Jodi and I'm so glad I finally got her on the show.So I now bring you Jodi Wellman.Jodi Wellman, welcome to the Psychology Podcast.
God, very confident.I'm overly thrilled to be here with you.
Yeah, I'm thrilled to have you here and to finally talk to you and congratulations on your new book called You Only Die Once.Very clever.How to make it to the end with no regrets.Wow.
You know, there's research showing that people's last name correlates with their profession.So like shoemakers tend to be more likely to make shoes.
People with the word well in their last name tend to be more likely to become psychologists or coaches. I don't know.Did you always feel like a calling to help with wellness?
And do you also like men?I'm trying to figure out the well men part.
The combo.I just feel grateful that I did not fall for a guy whose last name was Sickman because that would have been probably not good for my career to be Jody Sickman.But I like how you know that obscure research.Only you would know that.
That's true, that's true.Maybe, maybe.Yeah, so I am generally interested.Have you always been interested in death maybe?Or wellness?What's the theme that runs through your life?
Well, I would say wellness was the theme that was obvious on the outside because I felt like that was less weird to show.
So I spent the first 17 years of my career in the health and wellness field, like running health clubs, and that was the whole other career.And then getting into like leadership development and coaching.
So that's all about, and then positive psychology, wellbeing, raw.But the undercurrent was always this little topic of mortality where I was like,
I'm fascinated by, and all I want to do is read about and talk about, and then scream it from the mountains, this idea about, we're totally going to die, and maybe we should get on with living.
But that was not as easy to talk about until I hope I found a way to do it and not turn everybody off.So it was always like the duality between well-being, let's live like we mean it, and then also, yeah, because it's going to end.
What do you do with people who can't wait to die? I thought, let's just dive right into the deep end.I feel like there are so many people who have your attitude, but what about those who are like, I've had enough of this shit.
Like an overly positive acceptance towards death.Well, you know, they don't come out of the woodwork too much in my world.Like, for example, on Instagram, everybody's just so lovely and happy.Every now and then you get that attitude.
Like I put a question out once, like, what age do you want to die?I realized I was totally fishing for the crazies. And most people were honest, like, oh, I think 80 would be a good life.
Or when I, the most common answer was like up until I could no longer look after myself.Only at the end did stuff emerge where there were people that are like, yesterday, couldn't I be gone?
And so fortunately I'm not like in any kind of therapeutic space around that.And so it's just, to me, it's sad, interesting.
Like could even they benefit from reading your book?
Oh, what a good question.My hope would be yes.Because the point of it isn't so much about death, death, death.It's death, death, and then live in all caps.And then keep living, right?
It's helping people live more fully, right?Yeah.Now you have a master's of applied positive psychology from Penn.That's where I first met you.And you were an assistant instructor, or you still are?You are right now an assistant instructor.
in the master's program and you're a trainer in the world around resilience program.Amazing.So yeah, so you have a lot of expertise in resilience and wellness, thriving, coaching.
You're a certified coach with 25 years of corporate leadership experience. So, like when you coach people, is this idea of carpe diem or memento mori an important central concept in your coaching?
Good cue.Well, the answer is yes. Yes, with an asterisk, right?So that would be my agenda.
And if I was, I mean, I guess as you teach in like your coaching programs, like if I'm coming at it with, let me tell you, here's the curriculum, it would be probably like the worst shittiest coach in the world.
However, while I don't do a lot of one-on-one anymore, it's mostly in groups.And when I was doing it one-on-one, You know, I think maybe I'm attracted to clients and then they would find me because of the spirit of, I want to get on with it.
I'm scared.I want more out of my life, but I'm not really sure how, or I get a sense like, am I squandering my time?So sometimes those were the questions and qualities that would maybe attract people into knowing what I did.
And then I'd be like, well, then let's dive in and go there rather than them talking about some other topic and me being like, Let's talk about the fact that you're temporary.I wouldn't spring it on them, you know what I mean?
But absolutely thematically, I feel like we cannot go there.
Yeah.I mean, the existential humanist psychologist Irvin Yalom certainly wrote a lot about this.Did you read Staring into the Sun?
Yeah, it's one of my favorite books.And he has a whole therapy around it, so why not having a whole coaching around it?
I think that's fair.Yeah, as long as they know they're signing up for it.
Why are we always talking about the Grim Reaper in our sessions?I mean, I love the idea of it.
Yeah.So what is Memento Mori?
Old Latin phrase, remember we must die.Doesn't it just stir the cockles of your heart?
Yeah.Yeah.I mean, I think that at various points in our lives, we have different realizations of that.
Yeah.Yeah.And what I notice is that most of us intentionally don't, I guess, now that you say that, right?Yeah.
We often keep it away from our consciousness.
Right.And I don't blame us for doing that.We want to be safe.We want to have a good day, not a totally freaking morbid day.But, you know, I think because you've studied this and you've actually been... I don't know.
Some people want a freaking morbid day.I just had a whole episode on the science of morbid curiosity.
Some people love that stuff.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.I totally get it.
But I know what you mean.
Yeah. the, for the gen pop, you know, we're, we're kind of like, how do I just like, like scrape by today and have it be okay?Yeah.
And that's the thing that I find the most kind of sizzly is that, okay, yeah, we want to live with more intention and meaning and feel good about our lives.And funny enough, it's exactly by doing the thing you don't think you want to do.
Like let's scratch the surface and maybe go deeper on the fact that you're a ticking time bomb.And it's interesting.
Yeah, I'm sorry, let me interrupt you.You're taking time, Bob.Well, I mean, it's just like, can you enjoy something knowing it's going to come to an end?And then there's some deep philosophical questions there that no one's ever fully answered.
But would you enjoy something if you thought, if you knew it would never end?Can you?
My answer is a very aggressive belief in no.So, can I ask first, what do you think?You can lead the witness here, but what do you think?
No, I think that having an ending is what gives something a meaning.Yeah.
We're singing from the same songbook.Yeah.Yeah.
That same operatic songbook.Sorry, Mike.That was like the best part of my day.I love it.That is the tune of We Don't Think We Need It.That's the theme song.
The fact that we're finite and when we pay attention to it, so, you know, temporal scarcities like the psychology science way of putting it, that any resource that is temporary, we value it more.
Okay, and we can apply that scarcity heuristic to our lives.And it's only when, for most of us, we pay attention to the fact that, and in my world, I count how many Mondays I have left.So I've got 1,810 as of this week.
And if I didn't do that math, I'm like, this is my freaking day job and I need to do that math, remind myself every Monday and get recentered and go, oh yeah, because I'm taking it for granted.
That's assuming that you live to what age?
That gets me to 83 as a woman, average age.Okay, yeah, yeah.Yeah.
It doesn't seem like a lot when you put it that way.
Why do you propose that we count our Mondays?Why not our Fridays?
Great question.Okay, if we knew we had 4,000 Fridays, it all just sounds easy and fun.And I want life to be great and easy and fun, but it doesn't let us reflect enough because this is slam dunk.
And Monday though, in comparison, allows us to do this visceral, like, how do I feel about my week ahead? Am I dreading going and doing the thing I'm supposed to be doing if I'm still working or whatnot?
And so it's just this way of looking at does another week of your life excite you, allure you, depress you?Insert adjective here.
Yeah, no, it's fair enough and some people have put these posters on their wall that show and yeah, I know that Tim Urban has one.
Yeah, I got one off his Wait But Why site and it's funny, I gave those to a business group I was leading years ago as the coach for the holiday season.
I rolled them all up and put little scrolls on them and gave them out and strangely, nobody was interested.It was like, thanks for the turnoff.
Oh, yeah.So people consider this kind of talk kind of a downer a little bit.Yeah.So, I mean, in a lot of ways, your whole message is like, this is not a downer.
I mean, by the way, we're going to release this episode on Halloween.Can we do that, Mike?I don't know.I'm just saying that out loud.We can try.Can we try?Try.But yeah, it might not happen.But anyway, this feels like a very...
So a big point here is that your message is not a downer, right?Like we need to think about life differently.We need to think about death differently.
Yes.Yes.Thank you for grabbing onto that because we'll tinker with it.We'll toy with it.We'll do enough to kind of tee hee hee.And believe me, like I'll doodle just to lighten the topic.I'll throw stupid, silly jokes out.
I'll keep it irreverent and light because we all have to laugh at the absurdity of it.And then we're going to flip the script pretty fast. from what could be dour and morbid, which, I mean, let's be honest, it is.It ultimately sucks.
But move that fast into, okay, and so now what do you feel motivated to do with your time?
So that you don't end up getting to the end and feeling like maybe you didn't do it justice, or that you have those deathbed regrets, which to me is, I think my biggest fear, I mean, other than spiders.
Oh, I don't like spiders.Yes, the whole deathbed regret thing.What are the things that people regret the most on their deathbed?
The biggest thing statistically would be two categories first and foremost, the way my brain works.I think y'all stills too. We've got regrets of omission and commission, just like our good old fashioned sins.
And so we think that we are going to be plagued by the regrets about the stupid decisions we made, the things we did and wished we hadn't.Turns out that stuff, we tend to find a way to rationalize, which thank God it's good.
So those choices, let's just set them aside because they don't really matter.
And now let's focus on the regrets of omission, which are those paths not taken, like the dreams we had for ourselves that we wondered about, like, what if I'd gone to that school?Or what if I'd applied for that big job?Or what if I'd asked her out?
Or whatever the thing is that you kind of wonder, and we always could have been happy if we'd moved to Phoenix, or I don't know, whatever the thing is you're wondering about.The thing that you're curious and the thing that you didn't take action on.
I call them coulda, shoulda, wouldas.
And so then they further burrow down and you know Dan Pink's work and the American Regret Project studies talk about how, you know, many of us will regret things around relational issues like connection regrets, like I wished I hadn't lost touch with so-and-so, I wish I'd kept my relationships up.
So that's a big category.And then there would be foundational regrets, like, I wished I'd done the work.I wished I'd gone and spent more time in school or gotten a better footing in my job or whatnot.
And goals, like I wished I had gone for the marathon that I wanted to do or started my Etsy business and making pillows or whatever the thing is that you deign to do.
So really the unrealization of one's highest potential.
Is that it?Like self-actualization?
I think it is.And it's like, as our friend Irv Yalom says, like the unlived life.And that, those words just like every time I say them or write them, they grip me in the right way of like, imagine having that sense of an unlived life.
And like, we're not going to reach all of our, I'm curious what you think about this.Cause like, Well, I have an opinion about bucket lists, too, and I want to hear yours.
But like a list of dreams, a list of notions and things that would be cool to do during our 4,000 Mondays.Yay.We know we're not going to get to do every single thing because, well, time is just not going to allow for it.
But the things that matter, like back to the deathbed regret exercise, if you can accurately pinpoint and go, holy crap, like if tonight was the night and I was just like, I was minutes away from perishing, what would I be actually kicking myself that I didn't take action on?
What would that be? And so now I have two questions for you.One, can I get, like, what would be, is there anything that you would think, I always wanted to do this thing, whether it's a big thing or a tiny little thing or a way of being?
It's a delightful question and it's a really good thought experiment.My mind tends to always work counter to what normal people would respond to things.
And so therefore, I love your anticipated answer.
I just feel like if I knew that this was it, I would want to just crawl up in my bed and read a good book.I think I'd want to maximize my pleasure for the next- Yeah, 12 hours or whatnot.
And just mentally prepare for the situation.
Right.Well, part of the answer is I love your answer, by the way, because- Really?Oh my gosh. Cause I feel like everyone else would be like, I'd start that non-profit.
You know what I mean?Like, I feel like that's the normal answer that people give or, all right, tell that girl I like her, you know, and just like calm down.Like I'd rather just meditate for the, for the two hours.
Yeah.Well, introverts unite because I would also be like, how could I get the coziest blanket and get so cozy and just like, yeah.
And maybe snuggle up with someone though.
Yeah.I believe there's room for others. Parents, if your child has a learning and thinking difference, like ADHD or dyslexia, you might be wondering how to support them in school and beyond.
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This show is sponsored by BetterHelp.I'd like to take a moment to give a big shout out to my parents for their unconditional love and support of me.This month is all about gratitude.
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We're not on our deathbed.
And we're not doing the exercise because I like the other thought experiment of like, if you knew, I think that if you had a year to live is still kind of bullshit because it's not an accurate way to really look at and go, what do I want to do with my life?
But that's why I like to pick an obscure number, like 16 years from today, you're done.Because now at least we're kind of sizing it a little more.
But if you did imagine, if you were gone tonight, what would you regret?I call them pre-grets, and I know it's a hokey name, but it's this idea about these are regrets in the making that we're not dead yet, so we still have a chance to get out there.
And if you would think, oh man, I always wanted to learn how to speak Spanish, well, go download the app thing.Or if you wanted to go and start reading to kids at the library, go do that.Like there's still time.That's the good news.
It's like, you don't have to wait anymore.Why are we waiting?
Yeah.Do you wake up in the morning and be like,
Holy cow!I'm alive today!Is that you, like, every day?
It is, although I hope I don't sound like a Disney character when I say that.But I do wake up generally quite ecstatic that I am still here.
I'm like, oh shit, I have to do this shit again. I'm joking, I'm joking.That's the contrary, me making that joke.I'm glad you appreciate it and you take it the right way.So look, you talk about living a squander-free life.What does that mean?
Oh, I love talking about squanderliciousness or not.And I feel the need to put an asterisk on it too because when I talk about this sort of mission to live a squander-free life, I think people then go to the extreme and say, okay, if it's the
Anti-squander life, it means I'm out booking all the trips, I'm at all the restaurants, I'm doing all the things, all the things that look good on social media, and I'm already exhausted even just naming four of them.And no, no, no.
You know, that's why I talk about living an astonishingly alive life.It's relative to what you want, right?It could involve the glass of wine and a book.Yay!Or it could involve going out and going to a gala or going on a yacht trip or whatever.
And so squandering is when we know
that we kind of want to be doing more, but we're either playing it small if that matters to us, or that we are like literally wasting our time so that we find that all of a sudden it's like, how did it get to be the end of September?
And I have no idea what happened because all my days were just these monotonous blurs merging into each other.So it's the idea of squandering without being intentional and concrete and say, hey, you know what would be cool?
How would I feel alive this weekend?Oh, that's one thing I could do.I could browse through that bookstore. Or, I could go and have brunch with a friend or whatever the thing is you choose to do.
So, it's plugging into life rather than letting it kind of carry us down that stream.Because, you know, we could just answer our emails and live a life of doing that, but we haven't really lived.Does that make sense?
It does, it does.I like your way of being.And what was your master's thesis about?This topic, right?
Called Memento Mori.Yeah.
And how was it received by your colleagues at MAP?
Yeah, it was received well.In fact, it was through some of the faculty there that I believe that the encouragement was to go for it.I was a little bit fearful as a pleaser, like, I don't want to buck the system of positive psychology.
But as we know, positive psychology embraces all of it, the light, the dark, the everything, right?It's about being resilient and making the most of life. Yeah.And so, fortunately, the idea is like, yeah, go explore the idea of death.
There's a really warm, friendly place for it in positive psychology and humanistic psychology and existential psychology.I mean, we all play together nicely, right?
We in the world of psychology.
Yeah, no, but for sure.Yeah, no, wonderful.I mean, it was such a unique thesis.Related a little bit to David Yeadon's master's thesis that he did at Penn, which was on the good death.
I didn't even know about it.Yeah, yeah.
We should have him.No, stop it. You're funny.Yours is very unique and different, but it just relates.And maybe we can get you a copy of David's thesis.But no, it's a very, you are very sui generis.You're very unique, you know?
What was the word you used?I don't know if I said it right.
One of a kind.You're one of a kind.Thank you.Aladdin for one of a kind.There is a lot of research on languishing and even your phrases and your phrasing.I mean, you have a unique spin.You're Jody Wellman.
Like when I think of Jody Wellman, I think of something very unique within the space of psychology.So you talk about how to undead our lives.But isn't that really just how do we get out of the languishing state into a state of flourishing?
Yes, and Mr. Improv?I think the answer is yes.And the mechanism is one that is one that I sometimes lament, but obviously have embraced.So it's that it's yes, and we need the nudge. we need the Grim Reaper to take his scythe and just gently tap you.
The way to get out of languishing, whatever we determine, the way to get out of squander land, or whatever it is that we're doing, is that I have found, and I'll confirmation bias the crap out of finding the research that I need in order to bolster the fact that
You know, yes, we need the negative in order to sometimes we need that motivational nudge.But like, most of us are not that motivated or have that much self-initiative to like, go make our lives full of flourishment.
And so we have to actually go, like, yeah, I've only got this many hours left in your way of wording it.Or I've only got- How many Mondays?1,810 Mondays left.On average, yeah.
And so that is the unfortunate, but I think necessary nudge in order to get out of language land.
Amazing.Ryan Holiday talks about this too.He wears his Memento Mori medallion all the time on his Instagram posts.You know what I'm talking about?I do.Yeah.Yeah.Yeah.
So there are others talking about this as well, which must feel good to kind of not feel like the soul traveler along this message.I mean, Stoics.
Stoics talked a lot about this.Absolutely.Yeah.I've been inspired by- Not just Ryan Holiday, but by Stoics.Yes, exactly.Ryan Holiday invented Stoicism.
I'm joking, Ryan.I'm joking.We'll give him a trauma stoic coin, though.I love it.He's great.Ryan's great.Yes.
And there have been so many really great thinkers, whether they're philosophers or psychologists from the days of old, you know, a lot of your kind of old, like, role models in the day.Yeah.Poets.I mean, literature.
Like, there's so many things in the humanities that are – we've been fascinated by the fact that we're going to die for as long as we've been alive.
And it's high time to continue to use that to our advantage rather than have it be something that we want to avoid.Because most people would rather head for the hills.
Yeah, but it's like the hills are coming.There's nowhere to run.Those hills will kill you.The grim reaper is coming. This is dark.This is dark.It doesn't matter where you go.
But some people are trying, like Jeff Bezos, a big article came out that he's trying to live forever.He's trying to put all his billions of dollars into living forever.
You saw that? Yeah.And same thing with Brian Johnson.Oh, yeah.Brian Johnson's, yeah.Pajilions.
He's drinking vampire blood over there.
Yes.I mean, whatever gets you through the night, pal.And back to your original question about, do you want to live forever? that it does sound a bit to me like torture.
It does sound like torture because it's this idea that would we ever really make anything happen?Or that to me actually feels like a recipe for just a squanderous existence.
Because it's that, would I, do I really want to go and study that thing in school?You know what?I'll do it in like 13,000 more years.Or do I want to go and initiate this relationship with somebody?Yeah, you know what?
I'll catch them the next time around in like 38,000 years.There's no real impetus.Do you feel the power of a deadline too?
I do.Oh, I work best under deadlines.I'll probably get most of my work done on my deathbed. I'll get my best work done.I'm good.I'm good with deadlines.Why are habits dangerous?No one says that.
You know, you're not going to get like, what's his name on this show?You know, one of these habit guys, they're all guys.They're all guys.
I was thinking of James Clear.He probably never thinks about death.He's probably just always thinking about the next goal.Do you know what I'm saying?
I do.I do.Yeah, I have bones to pick.Very polite bones to pick.But I would say, Habits, I believe, are the recipe for vitality disaster.It's a bold statement, right?I just came up with it.
But I think that when we succumb to habits and routines, just like related, that's when we go through the motions of life.And even those words about going through the motions, Like, okay, sometimes that's relieving.Like, I'm not a complete idiot.
I recognize that sometimes we need to tune out and not be ever present and ever savoring every moment that we're brushing our teeth.Like, life is complicated, so let's take your chill pill.
Like, sometimes that's when a routine will just help pacify us and just get through, oh, look at you.However, if we want to be happy,
What I do believe is that we need to abandon some of those routines where we've become, we know this, we've become- We need to be, we need to integrate both of these.Integrate, okay.
Some people are too happy.Okay.They need to chill.
They need to chill, okay.Do you know what I'm saying?Well, according to the voice- I'm happy, are you happy?
It's like, shut the fuck up.
But that's the voice you gave me in my morning wake up.I'm gonna have to recalibrate that voice.
That's my general... It's your general happy, happy.
For anyone who's above zero.Right.
They need to calm down.Well, the robotinizing of how we become these highly functioning zombies.Yes, we want to function, but most of us could agree that at the end of a week or a month or maybe even it's a whole freaking year where we're like,
I think I just, again, got swept up in the current of life.I'm going to be careful in saying, do I have anything to show for it?Because that also sounds like it's extrinsic.Like I have to show you on Instagram all the things I did this weekend?No.
But it's about breaking up your routine sometimes.
in a in the way that works for you to feel more alive like then all this is in service of finding more aliveness so what it might mean is if you know vitality vitality if you have the same route you take to work or the same exact
workout or the same exact date night or whatever it is, because we click into these patterns just to be convenient.It's the way we're wired, most of us.What about just shaking it up?
Throw a wrench in it, not in a way that's going to make you feel anxious.Do you think it's symbolic that our flame is out?Do you think that it's dead?I think that you rigged this.You purposely chose- I've never seen that happen before.
This is perfect.Have you ever seen that happen before?
Yeah, I think that candle was on its last legs.
I think it's amazing.Yeah, it's good.I think it's actually like, this is practicing death.
Appropriate, appropriate.
You know?Yeah, it's appropriate.Yeah, so be careful of routines.They'll rob you of aliveness, and next thing you know, you're in your grave.
Well, because you invented all this language, like we have dead zones in our life.You really like this theme, theme of death.I've gone a little far.No, but it's creative. I'm into it.I'm into it.I'm super into weird shit.I love that stuff.
So yeah, like, you know, I love it.You call it, you know, like you say, you need to diagnose the dead zones in your life.Yeah.
Yeah.And this I realized too, positive psychology practitioner, former coach, it's like, yeah, okay.There's a time and a place to identify things in your life that are currently working. Yeah, obviously do more of those things.
Like, you know, amplify what's good.Yes.Also, I do think it's helpful to really have that sort of diagnosis about like, where have I flatlined in my life?And you know how we have all these domains in life, right?
So, like, there's your career, there's your social life, there is your, like, personal growth area. fun and recreation, romance, you know, you name it, right?
When you are able to kind of look at each section and diagnose and go, you know, things are generally okay over here, that's fine.Or like, that's kind of, I'm okay to not address that one right now, but whoa, this one, like maybe it's recreation.
Like it's dead on arrival, like I really need to work on this area.
That's the helpful part about self-awareness is like really zeroing in because you can have a general sense of back to languishing or just a general sense of meh with life where you don't like, I don't know, something's missing or I think I want something more.
Or is this all there is or all the other existential winners?And so sometimes you just have to laser in and be like, oh, if it's recreation, well, then what's the thing you could do?Like pick up a hobby again.
What would that look like if you try that this weekend?
Is it OK to just be in moods?Is it OK to have moods of dead?Like you always have to feel pressure to like be happy. Like, what if you have a day where you're like, I'm dead today.Can you ever just allow yourself to just do it?
I think so.I think it's the human condition.In fact, I think that's what's so beautiful about appreciating what the good days because they're contrasted to the bad days.
You don't have to be astonishingly alive every day, right?
No.I feel also that that it is exhausting.It's tiring.It's also unsustainable, even if you kind of think you get there.So when I talk about like the opposite quadrant and what the work I do of the dead zone, you know, it is being astonishingly alive.
And I think that it's a really big freaking sandbox, like big area where you could be like any quadrant, right?Like you could be at the top right edge of it, maxing it out.Okay, well, hold on for that ride.Good on you.
But like for most of us, we're just going to kind of land over here.And sometimes we're going to dance around the others.And like, welcome at all, right?
Yes.Yeah, welcome at all.And yeah, I'm very Buddhist about that.For sure.I'm more Buddhist than stoic. But I do see some benefits to psoriasis for sure.Can we get a zoom in on your tattoo?Which is an hourglass.
It's the skull.I don't know how this is going to happen.I could walk up to a camera if you'd like. Okay.Melissa Nunez, she designed my logo, 4,000 Mondays with the sun setting.And so she did this one as well.
And I got this the week that I recorded the audio book for my book, because I wanted it to forever commemorate it on my skin and remind myself.
Wow, it's amazing that you have that reminder on your body.I'm so interested in all this amazing coaching work you do.I've got interest in coaching recently.
You say that some of your most motivated clients are those that have had a near-death experience.And I'm really interested in the science of near-death experiences because Abraham Maslow
talks about, what's the phrase he used, the second life or something like that.Yeah, post-mortem life, he calls it the post-mortem life.
I would have learned maybe through your book in Transcend or somewhere else about his heart attack.And he has a quote that, I'd be a better person if I had memorized, but just that it's riveting, right?
This idea of like, this river of my life will never be the same.It's so beautiful now.And acknowledging like, my life is just not the same now.How could I see like almost how exquisite it is without seeing death and experiencing the almostness of it?
Very broadly paraphrasing. Mr. Maslow.So I am also fascinated and I have envy for people who have had a brush with death because this is the thing I take most serious.And the idea that you can have even more of a sense of that awakening
Like that, I know, who is it?I don't think it was Yellum, but someone else had said the roar of awakening.I just love that phrase.I love the notion of it.
And so then I just think, okay, well, what's the next best thing other than, remember that movie Flatliners?Yes.We're dating ourselves here, but other than trying to. rig death and then come back.
I do remember that, yeah.
Yeah.A safer way to do it, I guess, is just to research things they know to be true and maybe try and live from that.And I've just found it fascinating.Like, I know a recent guest here on your show was Mike Gervais on fear of other people's opinions.
Yes.And that, to me, is one of the best gifts ever that I try to learn about vicariously from people who've had a brush with death.Because once they've kind of come back from being like- They have no fucks to give.Exactly. Yeah.
I must've had a near-death experience that I didn't know about.I have zero fucks to give.
Well, hang on.This is like a newish thing?
I used to be a people pleaser.What happened?Maybe I had something I don't know about.
Well, we need to do some sort of testing.We need to find out.I think just age.
I got to my 40s and I'm like, come on.I can't waste my time like this.
Right.Why do I care anymore about saying yes to that thing or answering that email?
Why should I care about what people think of me who I don't even like?That's what I'm saying.Well said.
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I tell the story in my book about this woman Shay in Palm Springs.She runs a non-profit for cancer survivors of breast cancer.And she was going through 22 weeks in a row of her chemotherapy.
And she had a blank journal and she drew a circle and that I have affectionately of course now called Shay's circle.And she said she was really intentional.
She's like, I'm going to come out of this thing and my life's going to be so much better in the following ways.And she wrote about the things she wanted in her life inside the circle.
And that included people and ways of being and I don't know, activities.And then maybe more poignantly and like interestingly, she had a crap ton of stuff outside the circle. like people that were kind of toxic.
Like, I don't think I need to make time for you, even though I may be related to you or whatnot.Or for her, it was being a pleaser, which is why I remember this.She's like, I don't need to say yes to your committee.
I don't need to be obliged to do that thing.I've seen the brink of death.And she doesn't talk like this, but I now know I don't have to do this because I'm going to live this special, precious life.She called it getting a second chance.
Let's all pretend that we have been given the postmortem life and a fresh second chance today to be like, if I just got out of the hospital, and this is the exercise I do with myself regularly.
If I was in a coma and I came out of the hospital and I came home, what's the stuff that I would really prioritize and what's the stuff that I would just be like, oh, it just doesn't matter anymore.
Including maybe other people's opinions or including tasks or including the toiling things we don't really, we're wasting our time on.I'd want to go pursue some dreams, you know?Yeah.
Oh, yeah.Yeah.I mean, this is an inspiring conversation.It's not a downer.
This is what Grim Reaper can do for us.
It's not a downer.Yeah.Yeah.I mean, no, it's what Jody Wellman.Are you the Grim Reaper?I hope not.I'm his PR man. I don't know how I feel about that.I hope I have many years to go.Can you just confirm that that is true?Oh, no.
I'm too neurotic for that.Just say yes.
Oh, we're arranging extra Mondays for you as a result of this conversation.
Oh, you've scored at least two Mondays.
Which is many Mondays from now, right?
Oh, yeah.Oh, yeah.Oh, yeah.
Um, what what's I'm like, what are we believing that you're part of the groomer?I like I wouldn't like put it past you.Um, what's what?Okay.What's a really realistic way for people with busy lives to incorporate these ideas into their lives?
I mean, what can they do?I mean, people are going crazy these days with work.
Yeah, I'm glad you asked it because I love the idea.Okay, so I'll go like in two directions.One is just going to be always, always, always my real kind of rah-rah for just like start counting your Mondays.
Like let that be the baseline of your memento mori practice.You don't have to get tattoos.You don't have to just count your Mondays and keep the countdown timer.Poof.Okay, good.That's done.Okay.
Now, this idea about living an astonishingly alive life without it breaking the bank or like the time that you are already time starved, you don't have enough time and or maybe even quite frankly the inclination.
I love so much that the life worth living for most of us is this deliberate sprinkling in and then the accumulation of stuff that is just usually sweet and simple.And it's often like free, which I mean that works, free is affordable.
So I love this exercise that I'll do with groups or people where it's like write out 30 things that make you happy, that bring you joy, however you want to define it.
We could split hairs over joy, fulfillment, meaning, whatever, but just what lights you up, what makes you feel alive in even the teeniest, tiniest way.And they need to be attainable things.You can't just say like, well, when I'm
on a cruise in the Mediterranean, like that's a little bit extreme.Don't not do that.But for most people, the things that they will write down are things that are so extraordinarily accessible in our days that we just don't make time for. right?
So a woman I met this morning, she was like, I'm going to get my daughter from her school today.I'm going to take her to the playground.
And she goes, I don't know why, but I always had this idea, like I wanted to be the kind of mom that brought a book to the playground.
And I'm doing that today for the first time ever, because she just goes and sits and she's like, I guess I'm a good mom.I sometimes watch my kid, which I guess is important.But she's like, I just scroll or whatever.I'm just sort of sitting aimlessly.
she's bringing a book and that for her is just going to be this, again, free.Again, she's already at the park with her kid, why not immerse herself?
And in her instance, it's just going to be this fiction book where she's going to read part of a chapter.And that's just going to make that 20 minute increment of her life that much better than if she had just maybe zoned out.
And maybe zoning out for some of us back to squandering is like, that's the thing you might need in that moment.But what about those special things where it's like,
taking the dog for a walk or being conscious and like sitting outside and having your coffee or like, can I be nosy?Like what are some little tiny little sweet things that you just, you can't explain it.
You don't have to explain it, but it just brings you little bits of joy.
No, they are pretty small things.It doesn't take much to bring me joy.In fact, the big things overwhelm me.But no, definitely drinking good coffee, definitely.On a rainy, thunderous day, thunderous, is that a word?
Thunderful, thunderful, do you know what I'm saying?
Yeah, a day where there's a lot of thunder and rain.I love just snuggling up in my bed and reading a good, It's like a logical novel.Like little things like that, I feel like make my life worth living.Was I supposed to say something grandiose?
That is the exact perfect answer.And it's also still a little contingent.The weather needs to be thundery, but maybe it's seizing it when that comes, right?It's like knowing the things that make you feel alive.
And that's another thing, you know, I'll ask groups like, what makes you feel most alive?And that can be an intimidating question.So sometimes it's just, what are some of the, The most alive thing is a little bit different.
So when I give a keynote talk, I feel very alive. I have maybe 3,000 people in a room listening to me, and I'm able to express my passion for my life's purpose and get instant feedback.There's something so live-feeling about that.I make up words.
I do verbal jujitsu because my brain's not functioning properly. But yeah.Does that make sense?The kind of aliveness?Oh, totally.Or teaching class.Yeah.
Yeah.Well, you're- Mentoring students.
Oh, yeah.I go on and on and on.
So, like, these are your, like, alive spots.And I'm already making an assumption that your life is already, fortunately, you know, sprinkled with a lot of those moments when you get to feel alive.
But maybe there's an aha, like, for me, it's also speaking.And so it's like, well, how do we rig our lives, quite frankly? we're all into hacks or whatever, like, okay, this is a freaking game.
How do we just make it so it's just that much better and alive while we're here?So for me, it's like, okay, more talking on the stage.
And for you, maybe I'm going to put words in your mouth, but just by way of example, it could be like, I need to make sure I'm consciously mentoring
three students or people in this period of time rather than just one, because I love it so much, like why am I not doing more of it?It's tuning into that stuff to say what makes you alive and how often are you doing it?Because you know what's sad?
And this is the part that I think is just partly the way we get swept up in the current of life is that many people, when I ask this question, they'll identify something that they just haven't done in a while. You know, it's often creative pursuits.
I know you're super creative.Thank you.People will talk about, oh, it's like when I'm painting, or you'll appreciate this one even more.I did a workshop last year where a guy was like, it was the whole team.
And he's like, the number one thing, of course, he was willing to answer.He goes, doing improv.And the group was like, oh, wow, really, Ben?And I'm like, wow, great.When was the last time you did it?
And just let this answer do the thing it did for me too.He said, oh, it's been like 10 years.And I just, I feel overwhelmed with this idea like we have life stuffed inside us.
And the fact that it's been a decade since this guy's done a thing that makes him feel most alive.
Yeah, that's a good point.
You know, what a travesty.And that, to me, is an example of not wanting to get to the end with all these coulda, shoulda, wouldas, which is how my mom died that I saw.And this notion of, we still have time to do the improv or to go and glass blow.
Well, in that case, can you just tell your friend, the Grim Reaper, to just chill?Can you give this to the Grim Reaper for me?
No, wait, no, wait, because if he chilled, it would make the problem worse.And you know this.You know this more than most of us because of all your research in the areas you're so, you know, multidisciplined.
Like you, you know, if Grim Reaper was like, I'm taking a break.I'm on a sabbatical.We would not do the thing.Party!Right.We would not.We would not live it up.You know what we would do?
We would continue to take it for granted.
we would squander.That therein lies, I think, the problem, right?Is that we live a life that, like, was Nietzsche, like, man is the only animal who has to be encouraged to live.And we have dreams and hopes.
And I think many of us are just, quite frankly, scared to press the go button.
Yes.I, and, yes, and, I think What do I think?I hate the idea that you're squandering your life if you're not always fully alive.I think that the purpose of life is to experience it.And I think people can be too hard on themselves.
that if they're not at every moment like serving a greater purpose, they're squandering their life.And I guess it's a little bit of a pet peeve of mine.How do you reconcile that?
We're so spot on together.This is back to that relativity of what Astonishingly Alive means to each person.I see.And I look at it like in the two quadrants, right?So two axes that make quadrants, like living wider with vitality.
So more of a hedonic kind of alignment to well-being and then deeper with meaning, more of the eudaimonic.
And we're going to have some people, you know, could really care less about the deeper meaningful stuff and it's all like rock on party and vice versa.
It could be more important to some people where they're like, I just want to volunteer at the church and I don't really care about going out or whatever the thing is.
based on each person's needs, I think that where all this nets out, I believe, is are you experiencing your life to the degree to which you feel good about it versus the niggling?Because I think we all have that inner knowing.I know I do.
Because as a kind of homebody introvert, like my default is going to be back under that blanket on the couch, right?And I have to be the one to remind myself to live very regularly.And I actually get prescriptive about it.
knowing, okay, I need to be social in this dose each month, do a new thing this much each month, go to a restaurant this much each month.And that to me is like, I'll always recalibrate it.
But I think that in between all that is an example of like all sorts of rest, which I don't call languishing.I call that like, I love my life in those moments.And I also know I love it when I also incorporate a little bit more.
So I think each one of us needs to do that honest work and say, Do you have the niggling that, oh, you know what?I don't think I'm really participating in my life as much as I know I would thrive if I was doing more of.
Yeah.For an article I want to write.
I'll tell you as soon as I write it.Okay, here we go.Here's the title.Okay.Don't confuse languishing for rest. No one's written that yet.It needs to be written.You bring up so many good points and your book is wonderful.
And I just want to congratulate you on it because look, I know how much the book means to you.I know how much work you've put into it. I've seen that firsthand.And I know how passionate you are about these ideas.
And I have nothing but positive, like I'm rooting for you energy.So I just want to end the interview by saying that I'm definitely rooting for you to live your best life.
Oh, thank you.You're rooting for me with my wake up in the morning Disney voice energy.Yes.I'm alive. I love it.
Thank you.Maybe more people could use that voice in their head.
Yeah, we actually need that, like the Elmo button or whatever the thing.We need you in the morning just to press that as maybe the alarm to wake up to.Yeah.But thank you for your kind words.
Thank you for being on my show.
I appreciate it.Time well spent.
This podcast is supported by BetterHelp, offering licensed therapists you can connect with via video, phone, or chat.Here's BetterHelp Head of Clinical Operations, Hesu Jo, discussing who can benefit from therapy.
I think a lot of people think that you're supposed to be going to therapy once you're like having panic attacks every day.
But before you get to that point, I think once you start even noticing that you feel a little bit off and you can't maintain this harmony that you once had in relationships, That could be a sign that maybe you want to go talk to somebody.
There's always a benefit in talking to someone because we can all benefit from improved insight about ourselves and who we are and how we behave with other people.
So if you're human, that's like a good indicator that you could benefit from talking to somebody.
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