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So Mikhail and I are trying to record these next two episodes of Hermes Historia.But it's been a little while.We both have had a ton of stuff going on.And I am trying to move across the country.
And then there's extenuating circumstances in my life that I'm not prepared to yet announce on mic.But basically, I'm losing my whole damn mind.And so this is the introduction. This is Hermes Historia while we find our footing.
It's still free anyway, until we figure out also the subscription that's coming.So keep enjoying these Hermes Historia episodes.And yeah, Makila, why don't you, why don't you take it away?What are we talking about today?
Hi, so because it's spooky season, I had to pick spooky topics.
I would have been offended if you didn't.
You might have been fired.That might have been the thing that did it.
I know.Originally, I was going to do something else for this first one, and then I decided I was going to do that next month instead.So here we are.I support this.Yeah, I know.I like the spookiness too, as you know.No.Just a little bit. Just a touch.
So for this first one, we're going to talk about Greek funerary practices.Oh, hell yes.Yes.So these practices, they have, yeah.
See, okay.This is the problem is I immediately want to like jump in with like a joke question.Um, and so I'm going to, I want you to tell the listeners just how, how important the coins on the eyelids were.Cause it,
Every movie from the ancient Greek world, everything would lead us to believe that the only way to pass into the underworld is to have coins placed over your eyelids.
So tell us all about that incredibly accurate portrayal of the ancient Greek funerary practices, Michaela.
You know, of all my research into Greek funerary practices, And all of my schooling, I have never actually once encountered coins with corpses.
Great.It's because it's on the eyes in the movies. Thank you very much.Yeah, or in the mouth.Right, yeah, in the mouth.But either way, it's, you know, that coin to pay the ferryman.Maybe one person did it and someone got, I don't know.
They wrote it into like three myths.And so the Western culture then decided that that was the only way they did anything.
All right.We, you know, we dug them up, didn't find any coins.And they were like, these are all mistakes then, I guess.
It's not a big part.Yeah.
Got it.So tell us about the real one.
So, um, it's changed a lot throughout all of, uh, sort of like, yeah, it's, um, it bounces around in a way that I find really interesting where there doesn't seem to be like an actual consistency to what the proper practices are.
There wasn't consistency on if inhumation, which is actual burial of the body in the ground, or cremation was preferred.They really just seemed to change based on preference throughout time.
I feel like it'd be a lot about how easy, how practical it is too, right? cremation is expensive.Yeah.Well, and, and also like if, if your land isn't easy to be buried in too, like, you know, there's, there's so many different things going on.
So yeah, it makes sense if they're just kind of like, what can we do at any given time?
Yeah.And it just, I didn't mean like, even if we look at like Mycenae, for example, we have the grave circles where people were buried bodies completely in the ground.And then we get other areas where it's like, Oh, they're being cremated.
it's within a relatively short time frame.So it's just not consistent in a way that I think is comfortable to us. I kinda like that, I don't know why.
So- I mean, I like it, because it just seems practical.And to me, I mean, everything I love with Ancient Greece is that it predates all the Christian stuff that we've been led to believe is the way to do things.
And I like that it's just like, no, so long as the body was honored in some way, we've done our duty, the person is gone.There's not so much pressure placed upon the survivors.
Yeah, throw grandpa in the hole.It's fine.
I mean, we said goodbye.And then we honor and appreciate grandpa.And then we throw him in the hole.
Yeah, exactly.It's fine.So through all these periods, various grave goods are put in the graves too.This is relatively common.We see marking of the graves either done with like marble or stone stelae.
Sometimes they're marked with just pots, just a real big, nice looking pot, put it there. That's where someone is buried.
Well, it's a show of gratitude regardless, right?
Yeah.Yeah.It's just the way they did it.Mourning always accompanied death.Mourning was a big deal, actually.
Oh, yeah.That makes it into the myths.
Yeah.So we have these three components for funerary practices.We have the mourning processes, the actual burial, and then the way the graves are marked.So immediately after death, someone perishes for one reason or another.
The most ideal case, at home, hopefully.Not, what am I writing?And not being poked by the dangerous end of a spear on the battlefield.And the prosthesis.
I mean, yeah, that's a preference.
Yeah, I mean, you know, at least then you can do the burial stuff right.Yeah.If you're at home versus on the battlefield.
And your family is there.
Yeah, it's nice.So after the death, the prosthesis, or literally just the laying out, begins. It would be done on a beer of some sort.A beer is just like a bed.And apparently the body would be positioned so that the feet face towards the door.
Like, this is the way we go.Go this way.Don't stay in the home.Go out this way.Because dead bodies, no matter how much we love them, the person who once inhabited them, loved the person who was once in them, were very polluting.
So you didn't want these things to stick around. in your home.The first thing that would be done after the laying out is that the people who attended to the body would then close the eyes and mouth.
The attendants were typically women in the most ideal of cases, it didn't have to be.If you don't have any women in your family, somebody still has to do it.If you're on the battlefield, someone still has to do it.
It sounds like it would be just like the carers. Yeah, and women often are that role in antiquity.They are the ones who take care of the domestic sphere, which includes death.That's part of it.It happens in the family.
Well, it makes me think of in the Iliad too, because, I mean, the people I'm thinking of just like, you know, the, the important deaths and the people I most associate with, like any kind of practices or, or caring is like Nestor and then the like actual healers, like Machaon.
And I forget the other one, like, you know, you have these roles where there aren't women, but they're like, there are the carers that are sort of assigned.
Yeah.Yeah.And even in the Iliad at the end, when, um, with Hector's funeral, we have, Helen, Andromache, and Hecuba, who are the ones who are leading it and taking charge and how it processes.
It's just women are responsible for the family in antiquity.That's their primary role.My good son, get off the desk.
That was a cat.Let's just make that clear.
There's no video, Michaela.My good son, get off my desk.
He's just in front of my screen.I can't see anything. So there is some indication from panaches, which I think we talked about last month.They're basically just terracotta flat pieces of art that have images on them.
So panaches from the 7th and 6th centuries, that there could have been a linen cloth that would be used, that would be strapped underneath the chin and then behind the head in order to keep the jaw shut.
We don't have any archeological evidence for this because linen, of course, doesn't survive.We do, though, have gold bands from Mycenae that could have served the same purpose, which I find interesting.
So the body would be washed and cleaned, preferably with water from a running source, as that was seen as better.And then it would be anointed with oil and clothed in an edema or a red or white robe.
Aromatic plants would be laid out on the beer with the body. And then the body would eventually be covered with the sheet called an epiblema.Like I said, dead bodies are very polluting to the environment.
So any sort of cleansing or purifying acts were important.
Well, and the herbs and stuff is all about the smell, right?
And just to the listeners, that's where the myth of Hades and Minthe is coming in, is purely that there was this association with mint because it's so aromatic and it would just be like, it would be the best or one of the best things to cover up the smell of a dead body.
And then so they just this sort of like after effect because it's not really surviving in any kind of you know, real mythos.It's just sort of in like Pausanias is like, someone told me this thing once.
And so it's just an interesting connection to to make.And also people love to hear about Hades.And we love Hades and Minthe.So Lore Olympus forever.
And so that same water that would be used, well, the same water from the same source, they would also be available in the household and people who would come visit.
after the death could dip plants into the water and then like sprinkle it about them as a way to purify themselves when they were leaving the space because that space is still, no matter what you do to try to keep it cleansed in the moment when the body is still there, it's still considered polluted.
So when you leave, you gotta cleanse yourself and, you know, sprinkle yourself with a little bit of water from a twig and you're fine.Off you go.And then the final thing that would be done to the body
is that it would be decorated with any sort of jewelry, plants, clothing, anything to make it nice.
This is something we do too.So question about that, because it stood out to me.I mean, the Mycenaeans are sort of the one-off, but they weren't providing them with loads of riches, right?It wasn't like the Egyptians.
There was much more of a practicality.They would be given a couple of things to show gratitude, but people wouldn't be like, tossing their entire wealth into the tombs, right?
I mean, again, the Mycenaeans, I think, did, to an extent, for a time period, at least.But, like, beyond that?
I think it would depend on your social class and what you have to give.
Right.You know?But then, so it's still this kind of same thing.You'd be giving kind of what you can rather than, like, everything you have.
Exactly.And it would be more about, you know, giving the stuff that was important to the person.
And sort of like because there's a sense that that stays with them in the Roman world.One thing I remember from school is we see a lot of mirrors being given to women in the Etruscan world, I think in the Roman world as well and in the Greek world.
And even in going all the way back to like Cycladic culture in the Bronze Age is we see these essentially bronze mirrors given in burial contexts. we deduce that usually it's women, we can't actually tell.
I've been watching a lot of Bones lately and the amount of times this woman's like, this is a 35 year old man.I'm like, you can't tell that.
Well, and it's like the mirrors thing being women is again, is more that longstanding.It's like the association. Yeah, it's like, all the ladies would look at the mirror more than men.So of course, these are women.
It's like, no, you could say like, you know, well, it's a person with the mirror, but it just Yeah, it reminds me of like, when they'll find to got to corpses, like embracing and they're like, either, you know, their roommates or there has to be male and female.
Yeah. Or if they find a body that has weapons with them and they automatically assume it has to be a warrior, it has to be a man.And then they actually spend time with the bones and they're like, actually, this is probably female.
It's like, yeah, women can have knives too.And in fact, maybe we should let women have knives a little bit more.
It's not a threat.It's a promise.So after the initial preparations of the body immediately after death, the next big thing is mourning and lamentation. And this was a big deal.
Big, big.This is like one of the only things I know about funeral practices.
Yes.So the way the people who survive react is so much more important than some of the rituals that need to be done, which is hilarious.So interesting.
And we also, fun fact, have so many images, especially from like the geometric period of fun pottery of people mourning. And it's really cool to see.
And so many scenes in tragedy.Yes.We have so many.And the, you know, I mean, the Iliad for sure, the Homeric text broadly, but like just this idea of like the wailing and the tearing at your hair and like all that is so iconically important.
Yeah.It's just that is how you mourn. You don't mourn through just crying and having an emotional break.You mourn by tearing your hair out and beating your head and scratching your nails down your face.It is a very physical thing.
I kind of like it because it feels more accurate to what mourning feels like and what grief feels like.It is such a vivid depiction of what you're going through when you have loss.I love that they just allowed this to happen.
I mean, technically it was supposed to be women who were doing this, really, mostly.
But Achilles shows us that it wasn't always.
Because Achilles was the bottom.
You're not wrong.I know.But Aeschylus would say you are.
Ah, yeah, Aeschylus can go away.So men would also be depicted on the vases.So we get the images of women on the vases beating at their heads and ripping their hair, but we also get images of men.
Often they would be in procession with ritual gestures.And then interestingly, there was also this idea of they would come to the bodies and they would call the deceased by their name.And it was like,
It was a very intimate, it was seen as a very intimate thing to do.It's like a way to emotionally connect with the deceased for the last time.So I find that interesting where they're also asking men to have this emotional connection with the body.
And it's like, you go up to them, you speak into their ear, you say whatever you have to say, you call them by their name.
It's kind of sweet.It's interesting.Yeah.It's very personal in a nice way.Yeah.
Yeah. during mourning, not only would there be the very obvious displays of mourning, there'd also be singing, wailing, flute playing, grief was encouraged to be expressed.
And the extent that mourning and grief was expected to be displayed could be a whole, honestly, like a whole episode by itself.
Like I want, I want, I want if there's a scholar out there who works on mourning and grief and antiquity, send us a message because it is wild the extent to mourning is like important and dramatic too, which is, you know, it's the Greeks.
They were a dramatic bunch and I appreciate them for that.The inventors of theater were dramatic people?You know, I know it's a wild thing to say, but this is the conclusions I've come to.
They're not at all dramatic now.No, not at all.No.
I have sarcastic sarcastic.
Okay.I missed that.I was just like, that's a wild thing to say.
Greek people are iconic.Like they're there.It's just the most Greek.I fucking love it.
It makes me very happy.So after the morning, well, it's during the morning, but after the initial period of the body being in the home, you have the ekphora or the funeral procession, Greek religion, They love a procession.They love a parade.
That's on pottery everywhere.It's like if they can have any excuse for a procession, they will do it.And that's fair.So they do it with the dead body.
So after the period time of Solon in Athens, this would take place on the third day after death, probably to ensure that the body's actually dead. Don't bury someone alive.
They learn pretty quickly.
In earlier time periods, it was quite the affair.So it could be large crowds of people accompanying the deceased to the grave, wailing and grieving the whole way.People would know that someone had died.
It was like just you have screaming women in the street.It's like, okay, someone's died.And there's also like an indication that like before people died, they would hire women to grieve for them at their funeral possession.
I mean, I could just, you know, you just throw some money around and pay 20 women to when you die to just scream in the streets.
Because like, I mean, especially for like a, you know, like highborn Athenian man who's like really concerned with that.Like, what if no one did like you got to prepare?Yep.
It makes them look important.A little more important than they perhaps were.
Humans have always wanted to look more important than they are.Oh my god, yeah.
For eternity.It's fair.Let them live.So after Solon, though, he restricted this level of extravagance.I think he really was just trying to have it so that the funeral procession was really just the family. And to cut back on conspicuous consumption.
We see this pop up all the time in antiquity.Sort of ways to cut back on rich people showing how rich they are.And it never works.
We should encourage them to spend more money is what I think we should do.
We should encourage them to give more money and become less rich.
Yep.Spend the money.Yeah.Don't.But on people. Give them tax breaks.They can pay.The Greeks did this, and the Romans did this, too.Get a really rich person to pay for us all to have a holiday.
I think about this all the time, because I'm making decent money, and I'm not trying to dodge taxes, even though our taxes pay for the bombing of children.
And then I think about Gale and the Westons of it all, and I'm probably paying the same amount, if not more, in taxes than fucking those people.Yeah.Yeah.
So there isn't many depictions of processions on vases.They do appear, but it doesn't seem to be as exciting as the actual dead body on a bed and people screaming around it.
That's so interesting, because I feel like there's a ton of wedding processions on pottery.Yes.Yeah.
Yeah, and I guess maybe more like festival processions, but yeah, not funerary.That's interesting.
Not as many funerary.Lots of dead people, but when we do see them, We often usually just see a body being wheeled out with chariots and mourners surrounding it, women tearing at their hair and screaming.
And the procession would lead from the entrance of the family home to where the body would either be buried or cremated.So the preference, I said this earlier, the preference for inhumation and cremation, it swings back and forth so wildly.
It's like you really there is no good pattern for it.
So there just like isn't a preference, really?
Yeah, it just it just kind of I think it's more like what's in trend is how I see it and how that changes throughout time like that happens with us as well.
Cremation is always expensive.And when we talk about cremation and antiquity, it is not cremation as we have it now.Like cremation now is we have ovens that can get hot enough that it can burn through bone.Yeah.And then
also what they do, I don't know if you know this, but after a body is cremated, they also go in and smash up any leftover bits.They will smash the shit out of grandma's bones so it becomes ash.
Because honestly, who wants to be given a bag and then it's like, oh, cool.I don't want a chunky bag of remains.Why do I see a bone?You don't want to see the bone.However, in antiquity, you would be seeing the bones.
There's no way to get a fire hot enough to burn bones to ash genetically easily.And they're not going to go in and start beating the shit out of grandma after they're dead because that for them would be very bad.
This is why people don't know that we do that now. And now I'm broadcasting it.
Well, I mean, I'm sure they're like, the key is that you just don't want to know that it happened to your family member, right?
Yeah.You don't need to know that.
Exactly.Um, so when bodies were cremated, it would be ash and bones.Um, and then you kind of just put them in a pot and you put a little lid on it and you're like, ta-da, that's how it is.So we get some really interesting things.
There's a, there's a burial, um, That was from Athens from the archaic period, I want to say.Oh my God.I'm trying to remember the dates for this burial early.So earlier it's coming out of the iron age.
Um, it's called the rich Athenian lady because she was rich, but she was cremated and put in a pot.Um, and we have all her bones and interesting.We also found fetal bones.So she was either pregnant at the time of death or a.
had given birth and her and the child did survive.
So it's, you know, fun.We get, we still get information from cremations is I guess what I'm trying to say.
Yeah.Um, it's fun for people like us.It's fine.
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I just, cause you said Athens to you, like, I just want everyone to know if you go to Athens, you really need to go to the Kerameikos ancient cemetery site.It's like one of the ones that's included in like the combo ticket.
If you just spend the extra little bit with the Acropolis and you get access to all the sites.Kerameikos is amazing.It's mostly just like this big park with a bunch of ruins, but really incredible funerary stuff.And also really great wildlife.
It's one of my favorite places to go for wildlife.If you go in September, I'm willing to bet you will see tortoises trying to fuck.I'm not joking.You'll see tortoises regardless.But in September, I have learned they are fucking.
They got stuff going on then.They do.
I have seen more attempted, not actual attempted threesomes, but like literally fights between two males over one female.
I have seen that like five times between the Agora and Karameikos just over the months of September, like a couple of years in a row. Anyway, sorry.Karamajkos is amazing.
Yeah, the nice thing about Karamajkos as well is you can see the the base of the Diplion Gate, which is pretty fun.Yes.Yeah, I like that.
No, historically, it's really, it's a great site.And it's just beautiful.And it's really under understated.
Yes, because graveyards would be outside of the city.So yeah, outside of the city walls originally.And as time grew on, it kind of We enveloped it.I find that really interesting when you look at Mycenae though, because Grave Circle A is inside.
And I believe we've even found, if I'm remembering correctly, there are other Mycenaean sites where they have some of their grave areas are inside the city walls.And Grave Circle A, it was there before the walls were built.
So they purposely built the wall to include this grave circle.
And that's really interesting because all throughout antiquity, otherwise, in the archaic, classical, Hellenistic, Roman period beyond, you would never have a burial site within the city limits.It would always be outside.
To go back to the Karameikos thing too, because the Dipilon Gate or the wall, the reason it's there is that it was on the outside and then the Persians attacked and in a pinch, it's the Themistoclean Wall, also called that, right?Yes.
So like Themistocles, like in a pinch was like, we have to and they like used pieces of other graves to build this wall quickly because they were like fucked.
And so, yeah, it's really interesting because it is like this awkward wall that's like right in the middle of an ancient cemetery because all of these different things led up to that.It's very cool.
So when it comes to inhumation and earlier periods, bodies were usually simply placed into the ground, wrapped in a shroud, sometimes on a bed of leaves.
Later there are coffins, but it doesn't really seem to be a requirement I really think you could kind of just throw a body in a hole if you so wished Yeah, I think it means Sorry, it's interesting.
They just feel like they really were kind of, you know They just didn't as soon as the person was gone.
They were gone and I yeah You treat the body with respect, but I get Culturally we have different understandings of what that looks like for them.
Like when I say throw it in a hole, I don't literally think they were just going to like roll it into the hole.
They were kind to it, but it just didn't matter whether it was in a coffin or not.
Yeah.And coffins were expensive.Yeah.And, you know, it really depends on what you have, what you can afford.And there are other things that are a little bit more important to pay for, maybe in some ways.And
it's just about what is available to each individual family, which I guess is true for now, even in a lot of ways.
I just feel like there's a higher expectation of like, you know, you're doing wrong if you can't afford like a ton of stuff.
And I mean, maybe it was like that back then too, but I like seeing this idea of like, hopefully they, you know, they were going kind of within their means in order to honor the dead.
And I think it's going to be different to compare, um, comparing a, like, urban site to more of a rural site.Urban sites, you are more likely to, I would think, want to have a bit more of a show going on.
There's a lot of people there who could see, so you want to put on a bit of an extravagance compared to a rural site, especially if you're really in an area where it's maybe just you, extended family, and a few other people.
You're more likely to go bury them somewhere close by and really simple because It's just about what works for the family.If a cremated body would still also be buried, they did not keep the cremations like we do.
There is no grandma on the mantle in ancient Greece.Grandma is in the pot in the ground.She's not sticking around.They don't want a dead body in their home longer than they need it to be.Respect. It's fair.To each their own.
There's a polluting, but there's a pollution aspect to it.You know, death is polluting at the end of the day.Even, you know, killing of animals is, I mean, they sometimes kill dogs to purify an area, which I don't appreciate.
No, they also, they'll bury dogs in cemeteries because they love them so much.So.
Oh, Margarita.I miss her. Margarita is Latin, it means pearl.But there is a gravestelle, I want to say it's from the south of France, but I could be very wrong.
There is a gravestelle to a little white dog named Margarita, that someone left talking about how much They loved her and she would sit on their lap and all these things.There's another one that gets me.
I don't know where the other one was found, but on it, these are Roman ones too, because apparently those are the ones that stick in my mind.
But there's a grave stelae to a dog that says, I carried you here today, just as I carried you into my home the first time when you were a baby.And I was like, oh God. So we've always felt this way about our dogs.This is good to know.
But you know, that's fine.So yeah, so cremated remains would still be buried.This is still important.People would then leave all sorts of offerings with the deceased individuals.
This would include jewelry, precious metals and stones, pottery, weapons, terracotta wares.Goes on and on and on.There's literally no limit.Just leave what you can, I guess.
It has been noted that often there were more grave goods found with bodies that were cremated, interestingly.I think it has to do with wealth.
Cremation is more expensive.I don't think it is nowadays, actually.I think actual burial is more expensive.
I would assume so, yeah.Logistically, cremation is more expensive.
I know where I'm going to be buried.
Yeah, it's on Saltspring Island.You have a tomb picked out?No, I'm going to pay for it eventually because when I die, I don't want my people to have to pay for it. But it's a natural, it's a natural graveyard.
They will literally just throw your body into a hole.Oh, that's what I want.Yeah.Yeah.Yeah.Let me feed the earth.I want to be warm food.And Salt Spring's a lovely place.Oh, it's great.I love Salt Spring.
I know I've already visited the cemetery because it's me.I like cemeteries.It's fine.It's not weird.It's normal.So likely at the tomb, there was some sort of ceremony that would mark the end of it all. relatives pouring a libation of sort.
Libations were incredibly popular for death or anything related to deceased bodies or anything chthonic because they were easy to get into the ground.
Yeah, you're like feeding the earth with it.
Yeah, exactly.There are even some Greek and Roman tombs.This is really fun.Greek and Roman tombs that have pipes that lead from the earth to where the body is, so you could directly pour libation in and it would go straight to their body.
They're just giving them like wine straight to the corpse.Oh, I respect that so much.
Just throw a little bit of olive oil down there.It's important.Grave can be marked with a number of things.You know, large pot, marble stelae.Stelae often could have a number of scenes on it.There was no sort of canon for what was best.
but often the focus of it seemed to be on the person who was buried themselves.
Picturing some from Karamajkos.
Yeah.So we see young men in military contexts or, you know, sometimes they'll even have like a wound on them and there's the indication of this is the wound that killed them.Um, or in sport contexts, um, there's birthing scenes.
There is that's, I did a whole project on birth and antiquity and how I got my depictions were from Stella. Yes, there are so many scenes of women giving birth on stelae.That's what took them out.Yeah, happens.Women and men with their families.
So often the deceased would be like sitting down and then their family would be standing around them.Young girls would be depicted in wedding clothing.So we get that sense that they didn't actually get to get to this point in their life.
Yeah.So it's sort of like a little They get to have it in the next life or in whatever happens next.
And I really enjoy the thing I love about these stelae and what they depict is I really enjoy that the focus is on the individual and not some larger religious context.Like I said, I love graveyards.If you ever in Italy, go to an Italian graveyard.
It is amazing.They will have on the gravestones, they will have a picture of the person.
Oh yeah, yeah, I've seen that.I went to a cemetery in the south of France in this little town called Pezenas, but we just happened by it when I was there a few years ago.And yeah, it was also incredible.
Just like the history over, you know, in Europe as compared to the colonial cemeteries here.
I just really enjoy being able to walk around, I mean, I love walking around cemeteries.
To the listeners also, before Mikaela and I knew each other, we lived on, when I, for the first year that I was back in BC and like the year that I started the podcast, we lived on opposite ends of this like enormous cemetery in Vancouver.
Like I lived at the South end and she lived at the North end, but like otherwise, like basically, it was really cute.Yeah.That's really insane.And I used to smoke weed in that cemetery like every evening. I used to walk the pugs.
But I was a little satellite one because there's a satellite one south of 41st.Yep.And that's the one that was really close to my house.So yeah, that was the one right off 33rd.There we go.Oh, but yeah, no niche Vancouver to you all.
They'll know it if they're from there.Pleasant.I was sure of it away.I mean, we don't but neither of us still live there.Yeah.
You know, I don't live there anymore. Both of us.It could have been better.It could have been worse.At least there was a graveyard.That's so true.There's no graveyards by me now and I yearn for the grave.I really do.Graves.
So after burial, at least in the classical period, there is the paradipnot or the final funeral banquet.The wake, I guess. And it would sort of, it would close out all the ceremonies around death.
Because when you are doing all these ceremonies around death, your life is in a different state, right?You're not, life isn't as normal.You are in mourning.You know, we have our mourning periods.
A person, a widow will wear a black dress for a year or something.I don't know what the rules are.But this Paradipnan would close it off.
It would be held in the household of the deceased and it was a way for all the relatives to come together one last time and show support for each other.And as like I said, an official way to mark going back to life as normal.
I don't know enough about a Jewish tradition to say this confidently, but it sounds more like something out of, like I read a novel once that was like about sitting Shiva, which I don't know enough about, but again, but it just like sounds to me more like, which makes sense.
Cause the, you know, the religion is coming from a similar time period.Um, but yeah, it sounds, it sounds more similar to that than kind of anything that I ever experienced in a pseudo Christian quote unquote upbringing.
And it's really interesting, these meals are really important.
And you see people actually will like, because you're still supposed to throughout the year, do certain ceremonies on certain days from like, after the death, like on, you know, the third day is when you actually bury and then like, the 19th day, you do something and then so on so forth for a full year.
And people would also continuously throughout time, you're supposed to still take care of the grave.And this is often like the women of the family would go to the grave and take care of it, clean it up, leave some sort of offering, make it pretty.
They tie little like fillets, little ribbons on things because they love doing that.That was a ritual thing.
And also you would continue to remember your family by going to them and they would like share meals with the deceased person in the sense that they would like eat a meal at the grave.
And in the Roman period, we have grave sites where there's literally, the ancient Greeks, in moments, they ate their meals on beds, laying down. not sitting upright.So you can go to Greek.It's not messy at all.
The popcorn I find in my bed just from a little bit of snacking and these people are lounging and eating.
I know.I know.It's wild.I mean, it was like kind of at like an incline, but like still like a little more like a chaise lounge.
I feel like yeah, imagery.
Yeah.But there's like Roman graves you can find that have these beds built into the front of them.So your family could come back, clean it off.They all lay down and they have a meal.
And it was like you were sharing your deceased family member in with the meal for another time again.And you keep going.
Kind of like Dia de los Muertos where every year you're still remembering the people who have come before and who are no longer here with us.
Not to bring it down, but just throughout this conversation, I've just been reminded that we're about a week off from when I found out that my childhood slash teenage, a year off a year from when I yeah, my childhood slash teenage best friend I was completely estranged with and it's the most terrible story.
But and also she was my spookiest friend.We would have gone to the Ross Bay Cemetery.That's something that got cut out earlier. Um, but anyway, she died about a year ago and I, thank you.I'm really sorry for remembering that.
I'm laughing because it's the most, I mean, she died like a month before then Lupin did.So I just, the most fucked up experiences of my life, not least.Oh, you know, like the, the details in any case.
Yeah.Yeah.I mean, it began the year that was the year.But yeah, no, but it's honestly even like talking about that, though, is nice to have this reminder.
Like, I'm appreciating that I'm being reminded that it's been almost a year just by this conversation.You know, it's yeah. It is.
I think it's important.It's one of those things where, you know, we see this in antiquity, like that this was so important for them then, and it's still important now.
It's one of those things I love where it's that human, the humanness that kind of spans across time where you see, this is so important for us.
Remembering the people who we were close to who are no longer here or who came before us like this is, it is a very human thing to feel super connected to that and to not want to let go of that or forget it. and to just keep it around.
Like I have things, like I have my grandparents' wedding photo up in the room and you know, they're both passed away now, but I get to see them every day.
I wear my Nokomis, my grandmother, on my mom's side, I wear her wedding ring and wedding, I can speak, wedding ring and engagement ring, I wear that. And it's just a way I can keep her close to me.
And then I also, you know this, I have my two necklaces that I wear.I'm not wearing them today, but I have these two necklaces I wear.And the one of them has the ashes of my dog Zero in it.
And then the other one has the ashes of my other dog Zoe in it.Some of them, it's just, I get to keep them close at hand.And I think it's a, it's an important thing.You know, also sometimes grandma ends up in the closet, which is,
something some family members will get.
I mean, I have such complicated feelings about this because I didn't get Lupin's ashes because I was so emotional because it was like one of those times where I tried and tried and tried and then at 1130 at night we had to rush him to the hospital and an hour later I had to make the choice and they're like, do you want?
And I was like, I don't.The idea of him coming back like that was going to kill me.
And so I have like such complicated feelings because I don't have those and now I'm like I don't want I wouldn't have wanted the whole thing because I that it feels like too much pressure and it's also like I don't need like he's gone.
Oh, I'm scared of the idea of the shelf of ashes.You know what I mean?Like I'm like, I have so many animals.I have to at some point. choose who's staying and who's going.
Well yeah and so I'm just like okay I'm like I'm okay that I didn't get it but one thing I did do and so hearing you talk about your jewelry and and you know what if any listeners have suggestions for this Jenny Williamson of course sent me one and gave me the idea but it was like a very expensive American and I would just love to have if there's a Canadian option for someone like this but I kept
Lupin's Whiskers in a way that was very unhinged during his lifetime.
Oh, I do it with Qrow, too.
I have a jar of Qrow's Whiskers.But Lupin's were like... four inches or five inches long.They're the longest.I've never seen a cat with longer whiskers than him.They would stand out.They're big and long and curly.
And so I have an enormous number of his whiskers.And so I want to get something like that made, some piece of jewelry with, I mean, honestly, the volume of whiskers I have, I could make a tiny cat.But jewelry would be great.
And I've already started keeping squids for the same reason.But it is nice.Yeah, it's nice to have that.
connection like yeah and I think it would it's a nice reminder and I've been thinking about this a lot but I don't I'm trying not to like I don't have you know on and off mental health but um like I just think that it is a really great reminder of like the importance of just like general humanity and uh and respect for the dead and
what is happening in the world right now is the exact opposite of that, like not least all of the mass murdering of innocent people, but particularly also like, you know, if you can justify the mass murdering, which is I know people can, I cannot.
But like the treatment afterwards even, you know, like refugee camps where people are completely burned to ashes or the image that came out of the hospital that Israel recently bombed where a person burned alive with the ICU or with the
um thing still in his arm um anyway so i just i think we need to go back to this idea that like humans are fucking humans and yep and like you know say what you want about war um this isn't one it's an extermination but it say what you want about war but like the respect for human decency and like the yeah we're all kind of forgetting that everyone is fucking human right now no matter um you know what color their skin is or whether
Whether that what they follow what they do in life it is there is and like but we're all human yeah can we can we just like and like I mean ceasefire now everything like that's it needs so much more than a ceasefire but like just a little bit of of human fucking empathy to recognize
That's somebody's real human being.
Yeah.That's how they do it.Yeah.Mother, sister, mother.Yeah.Father, grandfather.Like somebody loves that person.
How would like just just put yourself in that position.Yeah.
But we've reached this point where they're just so dehumanized that like that.That's like the basic step is like first off, Palestinians and Lebanese people are human.
and just stop, there's no argument.No, they're human, period.Let's just state the fact.Anyways, sorry.We waited to the end, guys.Light screaming.You're welcome.All the love.
Yay, death.Yay, natural death that is then honored by the humans around.Yes.Because we're all human and deserve- Take grandma out of the closet.Yes. Out of the Safeway plastic bag, put her somewhere good.That, my friends, was Hermes Historia.
No, but for real, we didn't fully get to say it because we recorded the first two up front, but this is, I think, going to be really fun.To the listeners, we're going to get Makayla a better microphone.I promise.I'm so sorry.
No, and I'm so sorry because I should have done it already. I only have this mic for gaming.You're going to get one, but I'm in the process of preparing for a move that is going to take seven to eight days of driving.
Also, a thing that I will announce publicly once I get there, the crazy, ridiculous, ridiculous, ridiculous thing I did. And I'll come hang out at your place.No one will be surprised.Yeah.In any case.
So, you know, there's a lot going on, but we will be upping the quality, particularly once we're charging for this.We're still working on the details of the subscription, mostly because we're going to try to be doing everything on our own.
And it's going to be really great going forward.So. Until then, you get these free ones and we're finding our stride.If you're listening on Spotify, comment because a bunch of people commented on the first two and it made me so excited.
Mikayla's making a face, but I know she loves it.She just is like me seven years ago when I had trouble taking any kind of I mean, I'm still not great.Yeah, just give me seven years.But yeah, I have a lot of experience on her, so we'll get there.
I don't know if I need to read any credits, but you're on with me.So obviously, this was written by Makayla, because you just heard her read it.
It's me.It is.Makayla Penglish.Makayla, do you have?
Yeah.You do.Makayla Penglish, you exist.Do you have a catchphrase for the end of this episode? Do you want to sign off?I'm Liv, and I won't say my catchphrase because this is Mikaela's episode.
I'm Mikaela, and I love this shit.Is that what we're doing?
I was just putting you on the spot and trying to make you come up with one.
Give me a couple weeks to make me think.I'm not that creative.That one worked for now.
You think that mine was creative and not just the first thing that came out of my mouth?Do you think that?
So mine's going to be, I love this shit with a question mark.
Honestly, that's how we got this entire fucking podcast.The title, first thing that came to my mind.The tagline, first thing that came to my mind.Somebody messaged me and they were like, I like it.
And I was like, I guess I'm going to do it every time.Beautiful.You're all welcome.Great.
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Let's Talk About Myths, Baby! Greek & Roman Mythology Retold
