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Mark Cavendish was the star of the presentation, which is kind of ironic because he's just, you know, he's retired.Well, that's my question.
Is he?Yeah.Or he's not going to be at the 2020-2025 tour?No.I don't know.That actually threw me off quite a bit when I saw him at the presentation.I was like, wait a second, tours?
He should not come.I should not do another interview.Come on, why?
Everybody welcome back to the move plus our new offseason weekly show i'm spencer martin i'm here with johan berniel i'm gonna We'll go over the 2025 tour de france route Which was just unveiled this week in paris a few other other news items and then we have listener questions for johan
Johan, right up top, the tour route was released 2021 days.Shocker takes place in France, which actually is is is, I guess, more rare than you think it is.
It was the first time since like 2020 that it has taken place entirely inside of France in the last five years.
Yeah, and you did a show on this with Lance and George earlier this week, so we'll try not to tread on the same topics, but I have a few questions for you about this route.It is very north of France heavy.
It's basically spends half the time in the north.They go down to the Massif Central for one stage.I believe that's stage 12. It's also odd because it's 10 days before the first rest day.And then the second week is incredibly short.
It's 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 days in the second week, basically.But the basic from stage 12 to 19 are almost all just brutal mountain stages.
And then you have this this actually kind of strange Come down stage on 20 and then the traditional pair Paris finish on stage 21 We're back because the Olympics are not clogging up Paris this year But what were your and I know a lot of people were saying?
Oh, it's hard.They made it hard said Tadej Pogacar can't win I don't think that that is gonna stop him after having watched the 2024 season But what were your initial takeaways from this route?
Well, as I said already on the move, you know, it's back to more a traditional start.I wouldn't say, you know, traditionally it was always, you know, a few flat, like the first week was flat for sprinters.
Then, you know, stage 8, 9, 10, you got into the mountains back in the days.It goes back to that a little bit.The difference is, though, that in that first week, there are some really tricky stages.
They're not decisive, depending on the wind, because, you know, if there's a lot of wind, there can be a lot of wind in that area.
It could be decisive for some people, but yeah, I'm surprised to see it's such a long minutes until stage 12, you know, stage 10 is, you know, a mountain stage, not a high mountain stage, but it's a mountain stage, but the real big mountain started stage 12.
So a lot can happen until then. And what I think is especially the stress and the nerves racing the first week on those roads in northern France, in Britannia, in Normandia, it's always tricky.
And there's great opportunities for punchers like van der Poel, like Van Aert, like normally in Alaphilippe.We'll see if they are in the Tour or not, maybe. But I liked the course and I can't see how this is anti-Balacar, you know what I mean?
Some people say, yeah, you know, it's the super long mountain stages and mountains, it's better for Wenger.I mean, yeah, it's good for him. You know, it's good for Prachar too.
So I personally think it's, you know, if looking right now, it's the same three guys we're going to see, Prachar, Jonas and Remco.Primoz, we don't know yet if he's going to participate or not, right?
Because he kind of said somewhere that he would look at focusing on the races where Tadej didn't race, which is not a bad idea, actually.
But yeah, you know, Pogacar also has announced his schedule more or less, you know, saying that he'll do some classics in the beginning of the season.I think he said Milan San Remo and Tour of Flanders for sure.
No Giro and then Dauphiné as a lead up to the Tour de France.So a traditional preparation for the Tour, which I'm in favor of.So yeah, I mean,
It's, it's, it's as usual, Spencer, there's a lot of debate of, okay, this is good for this guy, for this guy.It's the strongest guy who wins and the guy who has the strongest team.
And, uh, you know, of course you can have any bad luck, but if everything goes okay, we're going to see these three riders with three strong teams around them, fighting it out for, uh, for the win.
Yeah, I mean, my first thought looking at it, but first of all, I thought of you because there's only two stages over 200 kilometers.So right there, it's like, oh, man, Johan's not going to like this, these these weak kids these days.
But it is kind of an interesting because it is traditional kind of, you know, it's like this traditional Jean-Marie LeBlanc start.
and then it's like Prudhomme in the second half where it's like it's short explosive mountain stages from basically stage 12 to stage 19, which is fun.I think the craziest stage is stage 13, 11 kilometer time trial.
basically, just a summit finish, just by yourself.It's the para it's the para good finish at the Alcatraz.
It's up the call the parachute and then you take the deviation to pay to the airport.It's it's pure uphill.I think it's two kilometers flat and then nine kilometers uphill.
And that is what you said, like the strongest rider is going to win.To me, that really makes it the strongest rider is going to win.
Because even if, you know, if you remember in 2020, Tadej Pogacar got caught out in the crosswinds, I believe that was stage seven, loses significant time.I think his quote after the stage was like, yeah, it's not a, not a big deal.
I'll make that time up later.
And he didn't really get caught out.He had a mechanical just before it broke. Okay.
But anyways, he lost, he lost time.And then on the pay the suit on that same climb with the time trial is, uh, he took, uh, he took back a minute, I think.
Yeah.Yeah.And I remember at the time I thought, why are they giving him this time?And you go back and watch it.He might've just been going too hard for those guys to follow.
He was flying, but that, that is like an insurance policy, policy stage 13, because imagine like, just imagine the vault of this year.Ben O'Connor takes that time.Imagine Pogacar's at that race.
he just blows up that gap that O'Connor has in that 11 kilometer time trial.I mean, that is a steep, hard climb, steep finish.
And if you're by yourself, I have to imagine that you're going to lose more time than if it was a group finish on the same finish.Also, this is the same finish.Remember Brandon McNulty was pacing
exactly gotcha yeah i think that was what gives you an idea of how steep it is you know so obviously it was after a long mountain stage but um yeah i mean we all remember those those images where mcnulty was pacing and then uh i think jonas attacked and then pogacar counter-attacked and he won the stage and then we all know this these images when uh
Who was it?Uh, the Dutch guy on quickstep sprinter, uh, Bruno.Well, no Jacobs.
Jacobson fighting to make the time cut.And for the people who, uh, have a really long memory, this Altiport is, uh, famous for featuring in one of the James Bond movies.Um, there's some scenes, uh, being filmed there on that Altiport.
I mean, it's kind of terrifying.I didn't quite realize you could take planes off and land them on a runway that steep.I don't want to do that, actually, at any point in my life.But they so they continue on.
There's a lot of debate of Vontou as part of the Alps, not part of the Alps.I think technically, geologically, it is part of the Alps.It appears to be separate.That's what I was reading this week.It looks separate when you're there.It is.
You have a summit finish on Vaughn too.So yeah, like that's going to help the strongest rider.Like that's not some gimmicky finish.
So if you've gotten time in this first week, you get, unless you're a really good climber, you're sending that time back.And then you have stage 18, 5,500 meters of climbing. What is that in feet that is that's like 18,000 feet something like that.
Yeah 18,000 150 feet of vertical gain finishes It's a little confusing Courchevel cold a lot lows you see that you think it's the same cold a lot lows that they finished on in 2020 and 2023 when we've been to go really really put a lot of time into
Pagacar, actually in 2023, they went over the top, finished in the town of Courchevel, I believe, or at least around it.I think you said they're climbing the other side of that.So the side that they descended.
Yeah, I think from I mean, at first sight, I think they go up Courchevel and then in Courchevel, they keep going.They keep going.It's basically a path they made, they paved to connect two valleys.
Um, and so that's, that's, it's, it's from the other side, but it's, it's unbelievably hard.Um, you know, it's, it's, it's a super hard stage.Some people say it's the queen stage.I think the, the stage to Laplandia, uh, is that stage 19 Laplandia?
Yeah.So the next day is to Laplandia.I think that's also a really, really hard stage.In my opinion, that's actually the hardest stage.Um, but, uh, but Hey, listen, there's plenty of climbing.Um, I think there's more or less the same amount of,
elevation, 52,000 meters or something as this year's Tour de France.I think this year was 53,000, if I'm not mistaken, at the Tour de France.
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I think it's really balanced.I like it.As we said on the move show, I think the only thing that's missing for me is a team time trial.I'd love to see that again.But other than that, there's something for everyone.
There's not a whole lot of opportunities or guaranteed opportunities for sprints. Some of those stages that you think might be a sprint are tricky at the end.Some sprinters may make it.
For example, Pedersen has a few chances where other sprinters can't make it.But I think for sprinters, it's not an ideal to the France.
Yeah, I yeah, that is true.
I mean like leal the first stage probably will be a sprint Yeah, the neck the next bang on sprint stage like stage three finishes in Dunkirk that but like these are tricky roads you know you get to the north of the country a lot of crosswinds and
really tricky roads.I could even think of Calais, what was that, two, three years ago, where you'd look at it and you'd think that's absolutely a sprint stage.Wout van Aert flies off the front and solos to the wind.
I mean, that's just like sums up the north of France right there.You could get a lot of funky stage finishes.
My big question for you, I actually am quite excited about this because it's almost like a bunch of little one day classics scattered throughout the first 10, 11 stages.Is Pogacar contesting these stage wins?Oh, for sure.
and so he could have like a nice little tally of time bonuses built up by the time you get to the first rest day there's some stages i mean there's some stages for punchers like bernard van der poel and we'll see if on the pool goes to the tour or not we don't know yet i mean he has he has kind of hinted towards focusing on
for the try to be world champion mountain bike, uh, next year, not going to be easy.
Um, but, uh, so that would depend, I mean, he could still do part of the tour and then, and then, uh, kind of pull out, uh, after the first rest day or something, that would also be a possibility.If I would be him, I would do that.Um, but, um,
But there's a few, you know, in the first seven, eight days, there's two stages or three stages where Pogacar will try to win the stage and get bonuses, for sure.
Like stage seven, Mude Bretagne.I think Vanderpoel won last time they were there.Was that two, three years ago?
and took the yellow jersey in honor of his grandfather, who had just passed away, Ramon Pulidoro.That stage is still fresh in my mind, and I still consider that as one of the most incredible performances I've seen in the last decade.
Because what Van der Poel did there was unbelievable.The first time they went over Moody Brittania, he attacked. took the bonification seconds.There was bonification.
Uh, and then he got back in a real back in and then he attacked again and won the stage.That was the only way he could actually get the Jersey from all the Philippe who had won the day before.
And yeah, that was incredible.And his first tour just right out of the gate.And that's a, that's a climb that really suits Pagacar does not suit Vinigo or Evenepoel. Stage five time trial, 33 kilometer individual time trial.
I haven't looked at like the actual map, but the profile looks quite flat.To me, that could be a lot like, what was that stage seven this year?
Like it's those guys, Pogacar, Vindigo, Evenepoel, they're all so fast at the time trial, especially when they're fit.So, I mean, maybe Evenepoel gets a little bit of time there.
I mean, this is, we're going back to the problem, Remco Evenepoel's problem. let's say he gets 15 seconds on Pagacar, where else is he getting time on him?
You know, he can take a little bit of time in a flat time trial, at least this year, and then he loses at the mountains.
So if he wants to win, he's either got to like hope that something happens or dramatically improve his climbing while not losing any time trial ability.So it's a pretty tough task.Yeah, definitely.Yeah.
And like, so stage 19, you mentioned that to La Plana, 130 kilometers.That's not very far.You know, that's not long.That's going to be a really hard stage.
Like even just, the more I look at this route, when I first looked at the map a few weeks ago, I was like, Oh man, I don't know.It's kind of a weird, it just like felt like we were going back in time.Like we spent half the time in the North.
One day in the Massey Centrale, this does not feel like an exciting tour, but the more you look at this route, it's actually quite, they're quite good at creating these routes that can kind of marry history with modern explosive stages.
Just another thing on stage 18, like, oh, being too hard for Pogacar.I looked up stage 15 of the Giro this last year, where Pogacar crushed everybody. It's 222 kilometers, so significantly longer.5,700, 5,700, basically 5,700 meters of climbing.
So more climbing than stage 18 of the tour this year or this coming year.So I think he's pretty good at hard stages.
I just wanted to make a little parenthesis, you know, because we're talking about, OK, 4,500, 4,800, 5,000 meters. I did some research, right?
And, uh, I don't want to sound like the old cranky ex cyclist who said, you know, well, back in the days, you know, but, uh, everything has changed.No shades.Stages are shorter.Uh, guys goes a lot faster.
Um, the gearing is a lot different, but I went back and did some research, you know, the tour de France of 1992.Stage 12 finish in Sestriere, 254 kilometers.We can see it on the profile here. 7,000 meters of vertical.
Claudio Capricci won the stage in seven hours, 44 minutes.7,000 meters, of course, it is extreme, but I do remember I did some tours, 6,000 meters was, I mean, long stages, but It happened.
And then, you know, while I was looking at this, and this is for people who I found this journal of mine, and I took a picture of it.So this is a picture here of, I think, my second tour de France.
I didn't do the 92 tour de France, but anyway, the gearing back in those days. If you look here, you see stage 16 to Alpe d'Huez, short stage. Um, 39, 22, uh, was my gearing in the blue circle.
Uh, and, uh, the stage afterwards to, uh, more Z with Juplan at the end in the Alps, like there was three mountains, 255 kilometers.Uh, I wrote 39, 23, and I made a little comment.22 would have been better.
Um, you know, I mean, to show you how things have changed, you know, we obviously went a lot slower.
Um, I think the maximum we had available back then in days was 25, but it was like, I don't know if it was, was, was a mental thing, but you know, like you, you didn't want to have to. take a 25 because that was like bad.
If you would have a 25, you were going slow, really slow, which is actually stupid because it would have been a lot better.But in our minds, it was like, okay, 39, 23, that's the gearing, and that's what you use.
And if you have the power, you can move that and you're gonna be okay.So, I mean, nowadays, if you would say nowadays, 39, 23 guys, that's what you get. mentally, they would not be able to start the race.
Because, you know, nowadays they're riding with 30, 32, sometimes 34 in the back.
You know, this is insane.What you're saying is crazy.I mean, a lot of people, there's a lot of noise made about like, how is Pogacar going so fast in these climbs?He's beating all these records.
You know, I was thinking at the time, like, I'm surprised he's not beating them by more based on what you're saying.Like it's,
it's almost impossible to even ride the climbs with the gearing that you're describing, let alone what your tire pressure was at.
I'm sure it was one thing that people forget, you know, like imagine to have these gears like 3923.Okay.So let's say there's a 255 kilometer stage with three months for mountains.Uh, Those are the gears you had.
So you had to like the first time, the second time, the third time you had to go over those climbs with those gears.Imagine the muscle tiredness you had already on it.
Now you can use your perfect ideal gears and on the last climb, but with the small gears they have, they're able to save their legs, you know, on the, on the climbs before the last time, which of course is going to have a huge impact on the speed on the last clients.
And your bike was probably really heavy in your cranks for like one 80 mil.
That was steel bikes, steel bike, and, uh, no one 75 cranks.But anyways, the bikes were probably nine kilos.I would say, uh, back then, uh, skinny tires.So, you know, down to down tube shifters.
I mean, even we were talking about this just personally off the record, like the handlebar widths recently, you know, my new Ventum. I feel very fast on it.It is objectively very fast.I go back to my old road bike.
I almost feel like I can't ride it because my handlebars are so wide and that it has to make a big difference in speed.And that just has happened in the last few years.
Yeah.Yeah.I remember I was always the 42 center, center, the center, the handlebars.And, and, you know, then back in the days there was this belief that you know, you actually had to try to look for the mountain stages.
Some people would get wider handlebars because, you know, the wider you were, your, your, your, your, your thorax was more open and to be able to breathe better, which of course makes no sense at all.
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Yeah.How could that science be wrong?It makes perfect sense.I'm even, I'm not trying to remember when these tiny teacup gears became popular.Do you remember stage 15, 2010 Giro d'Italia finishes atop Monte Zoncolan.Ivan Basso wins.
Cadel Evans, very strong at that race, finishes a minute 19 down because he was on probably similar gearing to what you're describing.
I don't think so.I think back then already, you know, I remember everything started to change when the, when the compact system came, you know, like basically 50, 34.Okay.
You know, so then they have the mid compact too, which is like 52, 36.
Yeah.So, I mean, if you have a 34 in the front and you have a, you know, 28, 30 in the back, you know, it's fine.
You know, you can go up everywhere. Do you remember when Contador started putting the really low-end SRAM cassette on?Because they didn't make the high-end cassette that was really big.He was basically putting like a beginner's cassette on his rear
basically for his rear gearing, because he could get like a 34.And it blew everyone's mind.They're like, no way, like, can a derailleur even handle that?And it could, you know, and it helps a lot.But people almost like laughed at it.
They're like, what's wrong?Why would you need that gear?That was the wrong way to think apparently.
I remember when one little story, Spencer, when now we're talking about gears, you know, very young professional, I think it was my second year professional.I was on a small team and we went to the Tour of Switzerland.
We were invited to the Tour of Switzerland and we had no equipment, we had nothing.We were a poor little team, super honored we could go to the Tour of Switzerland.I had never in my life seen a mountain pass like that before.
And so I remember I went to the team director and I asked for a cassette with the 25. And he was, you know, he was a champion, an ex-champion, you know, had been world champion.He had won the Vuelta.
He had been, he finished third in the Tour de France.So I looked up to this person, right?And so, and his answer was, what are you thinking of using a 25?Do you think this is a mountain bike race?
Now later, I found out that the reason why he didn't want to give me a 25 is that we were so poor that our team only had two cassettes with a 25, which he had to give to the sprinters to make it over the climb.
It's funny you take something like that so seriously.And it's like, you know, yeah, I just lied because we didn't have enough cassettes.Sorry, Johan.Yeah.
So if anyone says stage 18 is the I saw printed after the reveal, this is the hardest stage in tour history.Clearly, it's not true.That's not possible.
And also, they might have let you and Lance design this route, because seven mountain stages, I'm counting the time trial because it's a mountain stage, and seven summit finishes.So there's no downhill finishes.
No downhill finishes anywhere to be seen.
I don't know.I'm OK with it.It definitely favors Pogacar, whoever's stronger Pogacar.
Also, you know, well, it kind of evens out a little bit because let's not forget Jonas lost considerable time.
That's true.That's true.2023 and 2024.Sorry.So. You know, obviously, we don't know if mentally he still had some consequences of his bad crash in April that could have been a factor in his downhill skills.
You know, he really didn't have the confidence that he usually has because he's, you know, he's usually pretty good in the downhills.
And it's hard to imagine now, but this could be a really close race.You know, if they're both healthy and fit, I know I tallied up without time bonuses, like the difference in their tours.
Like if you imagine every tour they've raced against each other since 2021 is one tour.They're within like four seconds of each other over four years.
So there's a good chance this is close and that could make the difference as you say, because he lost a decent amount of time on this descent in 2024. Yeah.Also, what was I going to say?I totally blanked, but the, okay.
So this is what I'm going to say at, at the tour presentation, like no stars, I think it's because there was a Singapore criterium.They're all there.
Well, most of them are on holiday.
And yeah, Mark Cavendish was the star of the presentation, which is kind of ironic because he just, you know, he's retired.
Well, that's my question.Is he?Yeah.Or he's not, he's not going to be at the 2020, 2025 tour?No. I don't know that maybe that actually threw me off quite a bit when I saw him at the presentation.I was like, wait a second tours.
He should not come.I should not do another year, man.Come on.Why?You know, that's it, man.He's you know, he has the record now.It's nothing to be gained, nothing to be gained, you know, unless unless he just doesn't want to be at home too long.
But hey. If I'm Mark Cavendish and I don't like to be at home too long, I would find other ways than riding the Tour de France at this point in his life.
We know someone who's an expert in never being at home, always on the road.I guess he could get the yellow jersey stage one. And then this, I'm just making the case.
If I was trying to commit some yellow Jersey stage one, if he wins and then they're going back to Paris.So that's an act, an extra sprint stage.I agree.
He should not do this, that that would be crazy, but he's not going to, he's not going to, I think I was just, I think this is just a game of him.
You know, I think he said, we'll see or something or let's see, or yeah, I think this is a game he's playing with the media.There's no way he's going to come back another year.
And the last thing I'll say about this tour you look at it on the map the first thing you're thinking of if you're a staff member Well, I mean even for the riders.
It's me a lot of time in the team bus It's like I'm reading 3,000 kilometers of transfers, and it doesn't seem like there's not very many stages that are actually that close to each other
No, I mean, if you look at the map, they're all separate.
There's no almost, I mean, the beginning a little bit in the north, but there's almost no stages that are connected, you know, basically when you finish in one city and you start in the same city.Yeah.
Or even close, you know, there's a few really long transfers, but there's also a lot of small, I mean, if you look on the map, it seems small, but it's, you know, it's 120, 100.
It's always, you know, it's two hours in the bus before the stage, two hours in the bus after the stage, it's hard on the guys.
Yeah, I mean, here's just some of the transfers.200 kilometers from Dunkirk to Amens.That's stages 3 and 4.197 kilometers between stages 9 and 10.170 kilometers from stages 2 and 3.Like, that's... Those are brutal, brutal transfers.
Like, but yeah, I mean, my next question for you is heavy in the North.Like, do they wrote, like, is this like rotating crops?Like, oh, we'll, we'll not go to the North for two or three years.
Then there'll be a bunch of towns that want to pay us money to have a start and finish in that, in their town.
Actually, you know what?I don't know, Spencer.I don't know how it works.But obviously, it's the financial decisions.I don't know.I don't know.I think the north of France has obviously put in quite a bit of money.
to have, uh, because they're around there for like three, four days, right?
Yeah.They're basically in the, what's the region like?Oh, France or something.No, no, no.
Oh, North.No, no.Is it not?No.No.And I don't know.I don't know.Uh, I shouldn't know because it's close to Belgium.
It might actually be in French, French Flanders might be up there.
I mean, there are areas, there are actually areas in that, in that region that they speak, they speak Flemish, like a French Flemish, which is very strange, but it's, it's like French Flanders.
Yeah, I mean, we'll learn more about this when the tour starts.I need to go hunt around up there.I mean, there are two stages that start and finish in the same town, which you have to imagine costs a lot of money.You don't see that very often.
Like we saw it with Twa this year, but that must be a big check that they're writing. It's good for the city to, you know, brings a lot, a lot of economy to the city.It's, it's super, super busy those days.It's true.It's true.
Um, I've already booked my Airbnb or Lille.I'll be there.That's where everyone wants to be in the summer, right?Everyone goes to Lille for vacation.Not very pretty.
So moving on from the tour, we'll be obviously talking about this race a lot once 2025 kicks off, but. more things going on at INEOS.Their head trainer, personal trainer of Egan Bernal and Carlos Rodriguez leaving.He's a Basque person.
His name is, can you say his name really quick?Xavier Arteche. What's going on here?This seems, uh, well, it's just a purge going on, right?
Yeah.It's it's yeah.Everybody's leaving the ship.Uh, that's like, you know, the ship is sinking and sinking and everybody's jumping off. Um, I, you know, obviously it's, it's a snowball effect, right?
I think that, uh, a lot of guys, I mean, Arteche is there for a while already still when Brailsford was still there.I think he's probably hired by Brailsford, uh, close contact with Ellingworth.
You know, I think the fact that Ellingworth is leaving has an impact on, on, on also a lot of staff people. Um, and, uh, you know, highly qualified staff, people in cycling are in demand.
And there's a lot of other teams who, you know, are willing to, to pay decent contracts to these guys.You know, we saw Dan Bingham and his, uh, Aero assistant.Uh, I don't, I don't remember the name, but they're, they're leaving to the Red Bull.
I don't know where our patches would be going, but, you know, probably be probably be, uh, Red Bull or Visma or Movistar.Movistar could be, you know, that's back to his origin.You know, he's a Basque and it's his whole team.
I think Movistar recently has renewed the sponsorship for another four years.So that could be one of the potential.Anyways, I think it's telling to see that these people are leaving. And I don't know who they're going to replace them with.
You know, I mean, that's that's the thing we are.We saw already that in terms of hiring new writers, it's not been fantastic on Ineos.You know, there's there's been OK, they lose.I mean, they're losing.They're losing Narvaez.
The guys that are coming, there's Bob Jungels, and who else is there going there?There's one other guy that I think... Bob Jungels and... Anyway, the other new guys are not super, super big riders, you know?
Yeah.Well, I mean, I don't, did I miss this Axel Laurence?
Axel Laurence, yeah, Axel Laurence.That's a good guy.That's a good rider and that's a guy who will, who can win races, you know?
Uh, not saying that the other guys are not good riders, but at least this guy can win races, which is what they need, you know, but they're losing, you know, they're losing Ethan Hater, you know, these guys win races.
Yeah, that's the problem.Like, Narvaez, Hayter, those are probably two of their, I mean, Elia Viviani, in theory, a race winner, but hasn't been happening recently.
But Ethan Hayter and Narvaez, like, those are two of their probably most prolific winners that they have.I guess it's an odd thing, too, where the team might be, like, these people actually might be worth more split up.
So it's like, if you keep them together, I'm sure Ineos is thinking as we need to cut costs.All right, we're not going to pay these people more because the team's not doing well.
And so the head mechanic says, okay, I'm just going to leave and go work somewhere else.I'm probably going to get a pay raise.Head coach, the head trainer says, all right, I'm going to go somewhere else.I'll probably get a pay raise.
And Ineos probably isn't willing to give them pay raises because they're trying to cut costs, not actually increase costs.Yeah.
Well, I'm still a bit in the dark, you know, what's happening there.You know, now it's gone quiet around the whole Pitcock situation.We've seen, you know, some rumors that he might be staying now.I still can't see that happening actually.
So we'll see.I mean, what's clear is that right now in EOS, I mean, Team Sky from the early days, it's not the team, the benchmark anymore. And they're not even in the top three, not even in the top four, uh, of, of teams that people want to go to.
Um, anyway, they're, you know, people are leaving, but they have hired a lot of new people, new staff.Uh, they have hired new writers.They're, they're maxed out on 30 writers.So,
It seems to look like they want to keep going because normally new riders will not sign for one year.They will sign for minimum two years, right?So 25 and 26 looks like they're going to be teaming nails.What happened to Tim Kerrison?
Do you remember when he left the old head coach?Yeah, I don't know where he went. They should bring him back.Get, get Tim Garrison back the good old days.
Um, did you want to say via Benelux corner over here, uh, the Belgian cycling speaking of me, you know, I just want to make a little side jump towards, uh, Belgian cycling.
Uh, the same thing seems to be happening there.I don't know what the reason is, but you know, we've already said in another episode that. The head coach Sven van Turnhout has decided to stop his collaboration with Belgian Cycling.
He's looking for something else, probably going to go to a big WorldTour team, most likely Red Bull Bora, not confirmed yet, but then
And, uh, you know, following up on that, I just, I saw that, uh, the coach of track cycling in Belgium, Kenny, the kid has also decided to quit his position.Uh, no explanation given, but it's his decision.
Um, the technical director of, uh, of Belgian cycling, uh, who was the guy who was coordinating all the performance people, uh, is leaving Belgian cycling and actually goes to Sudak quick step.
to be coordinating the whole performance sector of Suzhou QuickStep. maybe at the request of Remco Evenepoel.It seems that they had a good relationship during the last few years.
And then the fourth one, the national coach for mountain bike, Philippe Meraghe, has not been renewed his contract.To me, it looks like it's a financial issue that I'm surprised because, you know,
The Belgian Federation has been quite successful in the last decade in terms of, you know, medals and world championships, Olympic games.So I don't know what's going on, but it's kind of, you know, everybody's leaving, leaving their position there.
So I'm going to try to find out exactly what's happening, but I'm surprised to see that.
Yeah, I mean, remember this thing with the they stopped doing bonuses.This is a story last week.I mean, there must be some financial angle, because as you said, the performance has been the best in the world.It has to be just some sort of
crunch there.Before we go into questions, Lorena Wiebes, did you want to talk about her third World Gravel Championships track World Championships?Pretty impressive.
Unbelievable.I mean, I think it's, it's, it's, you know, people have not really paid attention to it, but Lorena Wiebes, what a star, you know?So she finishes third in the World Championship Gravel, which is a week after the World Championships
on the road in Zurich, right?So third in the world championship is gravel straight from there.
She goes to the last stage rates, uh, international stage rates in Holland and in the Netherlands, um, wins three stages herself, and then helps win Lotte Kopecky the last stage that Kopecky needed to win to win the GC and wins.
So she's Kopecky wins and she wins because Lorena, we was just pulls her brakes and she just passes her at the last moment.Finishes that race.
Two days later, big surprise, I see Lorena Wiebes at the start of the World Championships on the track in the scratch race.So safe to say, zero preparation for the track.
But she comes from the World Championships road to the World Championships gravel to the road. Starts the scratch race against all the specialists in the world.World championship.She wins the world championship.She's world champion on the velodrome.
A couple of days later, another surprise, she shows up at the start of a high level cyclocross race in the Netherlands.
It's a night race, it's called Woerden, won by, I don't remember who won, the rider from Trek, I forgot her name now, the Dutch champion cyclocross. And she finishes seventh in the cyclocross race.
So she goes from one discipline to the other, to the track, and then back to cyclocross.I mean, I've never seen something like that.In two weeks time, she's been on the highest level in the world in four different disciplines.
It's really mind-blowing.
I mean, the end of the CMOC Ladies Tour, I don't know if I fully absorbed this at the time, she had to lead Capecchi out in the final sprint, make sure she doesn't win, make sure Capecchi does win, because Capecchi needed that four-second time bonus over second place to take the overall by two seconds.
That's very hard to do, extremely hard to do.I kind of wonder about Wiebes, like, you know, we talk so much about Capecchi, so much about Vollering, I'm just looking at the win rankings. This is in 2024.Wiebes wins 22 races.That's a lot.Wow.
That's almost like Pogacar, Pataki level.Kopecky 16, Vollering 15.So by wins, she's the most dominant rider in the sport.Obviously, she's helped because she's a sprinter.You can rack up a lot of wins that way.
The thing I wonder about, but this shows us why it's not so easy.Like, is she going to totally change women's cycling?Like, eventually, will teams just be like, what is the point of going to the line in any race?Like, should we just
Should everyone else be racing to make sure that it is not a sprint, that it's a small group finish?She wasn't beaten in the first two stages in the Tour de France.Yeah, that is.
I was hoping you wouldn't mention that because then that's exactly the reason why you would say, well, let's take it to the line.Who knows?We could beat her because it worked for those teams.Yeah. But I mean, she's so versatile.
Just, just listening to you say that it shows you why it's pretty difficult to get in front of her.
And the thing is, Spencer, I watched the, I watched the scratch race, uh, the world championships, the way she won that race was unbelievable, unbelievable.
Like she went to the front with, you know, in these, and that's a really, that's a specialty, you know, that the track racing is a different, it's a different discipline.
It's completely different, you know, different bikes, fixed gears, different, you know, different way of pedaling.She just was unbelievable.She won that like fingers in the nose.
And the races are like a few minutes long, you know, it's quite different from what you're doing all year long.Well, let's get into some listener questions.This one's really interesting.
It's actually, I've been thinking about this myself from Kendrick Kendrick in Chattanooga.How long does it take the ASO to come up with the route for the tour?If the tour concludes at the end of July and they announced the following
And if the ends in July and they announced at the end of October, does that mean they plan the tour in just three months?
I would think they would have to be working at least a year in advance because they have to coordinate with all the different towns and government.Or does the tour have so much money they bring in?
Does the tour bring in so much money they can do whatever they want?I'd assume, yeah, that it takes a year at least to plan.
Yeah, it's already decided where it's going to start next year and even the year after.No, I mean, you know, 26 and 27. Yeah, yeah.And then I guess they do work a year ahead for sure.
Um, and it's, you know, it's also, it's, it's a balance act between, you know, the bidding and, uh, what they want on the terrain.
Um, but no, I mean, obviously not, uh, it's not like the tour finishes and then in the next three months, they decide what the course is going to be.
It's, it's a year in advance for, I would say the fine tuning of the stages, but way before that already that is decided.
I assume they have, like, there's probably someone in a car, right, driving around, like, right now, like, looking at potential routes.
I mean, it is, when you start thinking about how granular you have to get, like, it's actually quite interesting, or finding, the thing I'm always fascinated about is finding climbs, you know, like, the Giro and the Vuelta are really good at this, like, let's, they must hear rumors, like, this climb is really hard, like, all right, we gotta go check it out and see if this is gonna be good for the race, and they have to, like, literally go out and drive it,
Well, the Tour de France is not the same, you know, there's not a lot of experiments in the Tour, you know, usually they go to the places where they've been before. There's exceptions, but the Vuelta is different.The Vuelta is like, okay, let's see.
Oh, there's a climb there.I just heard they paved the cattle path where the goats used to go up.
No, they find ridiculous, the most ridiculous climb.That doesn't happen in the Tour de France, ever.
The tour also has the benefit of, there's so many races in France that they can even just copy and paste parts of, like, I feel like almost every road they do, there's a regional race that probably uses that road.
So they could just, they don't have to do as much like home brewing as maybe the Vuelta does.I, I'd assume, you know, there's a lot of talk of like, oh, this is a Pagacar stopping route.And it was the same thing with Lance.
It was always like, they're trying to make it so Lance can't win, but do they even, They probably have the route locked in by the time the tour finishes, right?Like there's not a lot of wiggle room there.
Question 2 Can you comment on how much bike choice affected the tour?Pogacar seemed to ride a more aero bike with deeper section wheels on the mountain stages compared to Vindigo who seemed to ride a climbing bike with lighter, less aero wheels.
Since Pogacar seemed to gain some of his time on the less steep sections of the climbs where aero should make more of a difference, would Vindigo benefit from using a more aero bike?
This is something I was wondering about too, because not just Pogacar, every rider on UAE rides the same bike and wheels every day of the year.They never switch wheels, which goes like Visma definitely switches wheels based on stages.
But I've been curious to ask you this as well, Johan.
Well, well, first of all, I don't think there's that much difference between bikes at the highest level. It's often a choice.People like the way this bike handles better.In UAE, actually, I think they only use one model bike, a road bike.
Visma has the choice between the aero bike and the climbing bike.I didn't realize that they're always using the same section wheels.
What, what, like, is it like height, like, like 60 or 50 or they're pretty deep.I don't think there's 60, maybe 50.Yeah.
But yeah, just next time you see, like, next time you see a race, just like every UAE rider seems to be on exactly the same bike and wheels.No, like all the, actually I'm surprised the bike industry doesn't give them more crap about that.
Cause you know, there's all these like, Oh, you gotta have five bikes with different sets of wheels, it's like, well, Pogacar races the same bike and the same wheels every day of the year, no matter what race he's in.
I mean, I think the Pogacar of 2024 didn't really matter which bike he was racing.Yeah.I would also say on that, I think there's no, there's, it will, I don't think it will come down at that level of sophistication in the equipment.
I don't think there's any reason why a guy has lost or won a race because of the equipment.Let's put it that way.Maybe time trials is different.
There's a big difference between different brands and time trial bikes. I would say though, if like go back and watch the Pyrenees stages from this year, Pogacar definitely got an aero advantage just on drafting.
Like he was in the wheels a lot because, you know, Vindigo probably thought I have to, I have to do something here if I want to win the tour.And he was letting Taddei sit on his wheel a ton, which does give you a huge aero advantage.Yeah.
And George thinks that that, uh, what was that?It was the Morzine stage at the 2023 tour.George Hincapie thinks that the deeper section wheels mess Pagacar up on that descent, but I don't know if that's true or not.Which one was that?
I remember when Carlos Rodriguez won.Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.Yeah.Giubbana.
Which I mean, when you do run details like that in the mountains, actually the same climb, I, I, I mentioned the stage 255 kilometers in the 91 tour de France.Um, I don't think so.
I think, you know, what I saw, what I saw, I mean, didn't mess him up because. First of all, he could stay perfectly with Jonas, but Pogacar was definitely not the same rider and he was not great in any descent.
Actually, I had the impression that Jonas was a bit better in the descents than today in the 2033 Tour de France.Now, when you're in that zone of everything works or nothing seems to work, it has an impact on the climbing, but also on the descents.
Yeah.I mean, yeah.And also, so I do, I do agree with you.I thought Pogacar was the weaker to center in 2023, then to go weaker to center in 2024.What did they both have in common?
They both had bad crashes that spring, you know, and I don't know if that's probably mental and also physical.Like you just don't have the same comfort on the bike perhaps as the other rider.So yeah, don't. Do you want to descend fast?
Don't have a bad crash like two months before the tour that you have to come back from.Next question.I'm a wreck.This is David and Hoboken, New Jersey.I'm a recreational cyclist.
When I ride in a group or solo, I'm lit up like a Christmas tree to ensure I'm visible to car traffic, mainly a rear red taillight and front white light.In all the videos I see of pros training,
Uh, either as a team solo or just a few of the riders, they never have lights on their bikes, even when riding in heavy traffic.Why is this?Hmm.I have a theory.
I mean, most of the riders, uh, well, first of all, first of all, you know, don't compare professional cyclists with recreational riders because most professional cyclists, the, whether they go train in groups of small groups of, they usually have a following car behind them or.
In the worst case, a motorbike that is with them, with assistance, with spare wheels or drinks, food, whatever.I do see, however, a lot of riders with backlights.Front lights, probably not so much.
Um, and also it depends in the area where you're training.
Of course, you know, it's, uh, riding and riding bikes in the U S is not the same as riding bikes in Europe for the simple reason that, um, in the U S car drivers are not as used to cyclists in, in, on the roads.
And they are, you know, they, they can't estimate, uh, the distance or the speed a cyclist. gets close to your car.In Europe, it's different.
Europe is, and then depends in which parts of Europe, but if you see Belgium, Holland, Italy, France, Spain, I would say drivers are used to cyclists.I'm not saying that they are always respecting them, but it's different.It's different.
But I see most of the riders over here have at least a flashing backlight when they're riding in traffic.
Yeah, I would recommend that.
And I think what's happening here is David is maybe seeing a like photo shoots, you know, like if you're seeing videos of them, it's probably that's preset and they're going to, they're going to take all this stuff off their bike that doesn't look good.
But you'd be surprised when you see pros training, like they have all the ugly stuff on their bikes that we have, you know, like frame bags and things like that.Um, just because they're useful.And then, as you say, Johan, I think.
that there's a difference in the US and Europe.But I mean, I bought a backlight that I saw Wout van Aert using, the Garmin Varia, because I go, if Wout's using it, it's got to be good.And it is a great rear backlight to have.
So don't if you see... With the radar that kind of alerts you when...
super helpful.And yeah, and as you say, a lot of these guys have follow cars.So at least when they're doing serious training.
So you really don't want to, even if you see them on certain roads, like I've gone to some areas that like Remco Evanapoles uses a training camp.And I've thought like, Ooh, these main roads are pretty busy.I don't know if I would ride on here.
You got to remember, he probably has a follow car.So don't always do what they do.It's make sure you're taking care of your own safety.Look lamer than them because they're probably
Also having lights on the back of their bikes when they're training by themselves last question This is for Johan besides the obvious improvements.This is from Rad from Cape Town.I wish I was in Cape Town.
I'm jealous besides the obvious improvements in nutrition training and equipment What's the biggest change you've seen in the modern era of cycling?
Specifically have you seen an evolution in team tactics or is cycling fundamentally the same sport that it has always been hmm
Actually, I haven't seen an improvement in team tactics.Um, quite on the contrary, I think secondary in modern cycling and cycling is, is a lot more based now on performance and knowing exactly what they can do for such an amount of time.
Uh, you know, back in the days, uh, we didn't have that information.We, we, we didn't, we didn't know exactly.Okay.This rider can do this for such an amount of time. We didn't have the tools to measure it.So I think tactics have become secondary.
They're still necessary and sometimes mistakes are being made tactically that could prevent certain outcomes that they don't want. Um, but I think it's, uh, you know, it's, it's first of all, the bikes, the bikes, uh, have improved tremendously.
You know, I've saw, I saw somewhere.
Um, somebody who did all the calculations and put everything into, uh, you know, all the stats and he came to the conclusion that nowadays bikes compared to the bikes of late nineties, early two thousands, uh, or 16% faster, 16%.That's.
That's huge, 16%.Nutrition, we've talked about it.It's day and night.It's become one of the most important aspects of performance.And it's huge.
I mean, if you look at, for example, the Ironman last weekend, nutrition is the most focused aspect of that sport right now. Training, of course, has changed.
Back in the days, training was based on experience from other riders, not so much science behind.That has changed a lot.And then the psychological aspect, the mental.I mean, nowadays, every team, every cyclist has a mental coach.
If you would have said this 20 years ago, you would have been considered weak or soft.Do you need a mental coach?You're not a tough guy, right?The mental aspect of high performance and elite sport is super important.It's one of the most important.
And I think that has changed a lot too.So other than that, I think that's about it.
I agree with you, I do think team tactics have gotten worse, like think of Ayuso on the Galibier, like that's not happening on a Johan Verniel team.You have someone hiding in the back.
I know, I know, but you know what?I mean, it didn't have a, okay, you can say, well, you know, it's bullshit what he does, but it ultimately didn't have any effect on the outcome of Pogacar and UAE. but what he did there or not, not do it.
I mean, it didn't look good, but, and I, I, I, I didn't like it, but it had no, it wouldn't have made any difference.
Well, in retrospect, he could have stolen his teammates bike, could have stolen Pogacar's bikes to probably still would have been fine.Like he didn't real, none of that actually made any difference in retrospect.
I guess one thing I've maybe started to notice is the point, you know, there's so much pressure on points now.
I do feel like that changes the calculus a lot of times, like people will slot into racing for second, third, like think of even Lombardia, Kofidis, I think it was one, Izaguirre was second or third.
You know, it gets like 400 UCI points for that performance, which that's a lot.Like if you scored a thousand in a year, you would be one of the highest earning points riders on a team.
So he's getting half of that in one race, and that's really valuable for the team to stay in the world tour.I do think that's probably changed the way people race more than we think.
You see a lot of riders now fighting for 10th place, 15th place.Every single point counts.
That has changed, for sure.Do you see the double sprinter now maybe more than you used to?Also, yeah.Do you have anything else, Johan, before we take off?
I think we've covered a lot, for sure.There's a few things that we left out, but we'll carry it over.
We'll be back next week. And if you want your questions answered, send them to info at we do team.And we will get those on the next show if we have room.Well, thanks so much, Johan.And we will talk soon.
