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This episode contains adult language, references to suicide, and descriptions of domestic violence.
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It was a cool Friday night in 2008.The crowd rose to their feet as the teams ran out onto the football field at North Florida Christian School.Kevin Longshore stood near the corner of the field, excited to be back for his high school reunion.
The majority of our class is down near the end zone, talking, catching up, reminiscing.
It had been 20 years since he'd graduated, and he still knew some of the group well.Others, he hadn't seen since school.But there was one person absent that day who wasn't far from his mind.His old football teammate, Mike Williams.
It was mainly his laugh.He would tell a joke, and he'd tell it loud enough that everybody in the room could hear it, because he was just that kind of guy.He was a funny dude.
Kevin scanned the stands, his memories flooding back, when something caught his attention.There, less than 200 feet away, were two more old classmates.It was Brian and Denise.
They graduated high school with us, but they're literally 50 yards away and want nothing to do with us.
In truth, few alumni from North Florida Christian were eager to interact with them either.By that time, eight years after Mike's disappearance, the whispers about Brian and Denise were hard to avoid.
There was a lot of things being said about them behind their back at this reunion.
Earlier that year, I had published an article about the insurance fraud investigation into Mike's disappearance.It had sparked new interest in the case.
— There was just a lot of speculation about, what if?What if it's not coincidence that she ends up with a million-dollar insurance policy?What if it's not coincidence that Brian sold it to him?
— But as far as Kevin saw it, nothing at all had been proven.Far from it.In fact, he felt bad for Denise and Brian.
Brian and Denise were obviously together.I had assumed that Brian was also grieving.And the two of them just ended up together.I never gave it any more thought than that.
So seeing Brian and Denise at the football game, Kevin decided he was going to reach out.
Told my two buddies that, screw this, I'm going to go over there and talk to them.If they don't want to come talk to me, I'll go talk to them.And the three of us walked over and we were going to try to be friendly to Brian and Denise.
The couple was sitting at the bottom of the bleachers, not far from them.
And I see his appearance.He's muddy.He's got this long, scraggly beard.He looked like he hadn't shaved or trimmed a beard in several weeks.He just looked rough.So I said, dang, Brian, you look like you just came out of the woods and shot somebody.
shot somebody in the woods.
Kevin's friends looked at him with wide eyes.In no way, shape or form was I even thinking anything inappropriate.I was not accusing him of anything.Mike wasn't even on my mind.
But the words were already out of his mouth.It must have felt like an eternity before Brian responded.
He just kind of smiled and laughed and nodded his head.And I said, well, if y'all don't know, we do have a 20-year reunion over here, and all of your classmates are over here if you want to come say hello.
Denise and Brian smiled politely and said OK.But Kevin could tell the couple had no intention of joining him.As Kevin walked back to his section, his friend turned to him.
He says, I cannot believe that you said that to Brian. And that was literally the last time I ever said anything to either one of them.
Brian and Denise were increasingly isolated, and not just in the stands of that high school football game.Around the big, small town of Tallahassee, people were gossiping about them pretty much everywhere.
The only people they could turn to, who could truly understand what they were going through, who could offer an escape from the whispers and darting glances, was one another.But even that was about to change.
From Wondery, I'm Jennifer Portman, and this is Over My Dead Body, Gone Hunting. This is episode four.Did you say any prayers?It was a December afternoon in 2007, seven years since Mike had gone missing.
Brian's ex-wife, Kathy, sat in her car in front of the printing shop where she worked. She glanced around the parking lot as a man and a woman came up and handed her a tiny microphone.They were plainclothes officers.
Um, do you want to just stick this right in the center of your bra?All right, which way should go up?It doesn't matter.It doesn't matter?Yeah.Okay.
Ah!A couple days had passed since she reached out to law enforcement.
She called us and said, hey, Brian wants to meet me.
Investigator Tully Sparkman had spoken to her.He was the state attorney's office investigator who'd taken over the Mike Williams case.
And that's when we asked, would you be willing to meet with him and wear a wire?
Kathy had already been helping law enforcement.She was the one who told them Brian wasn't with her the morning Mike went missing.Investigator Sparkman knew there'd been plenty of false dons in this case over the years.
But he was hoping this new meeting with Brian could be the breakthrough they'd been waiting for for so long.— Say any prayers?
— Uh-huh.Have you?— I say a prayer every morning.I say a prayer, and I got a couple different things I ask for, and one of them is, solve this case and find Mike's body.
— I say one pretty close to that.I said, I say one pretty close to that.
With her microphone attached, Kathy drove down the street and pulled into a McDonald's parking lot.She'd agreed to meet Brian there at 2.30 p.m.Investigator Sparkman and the others parked their cars close by to watch and listen.
Kathy got out of her car and waited. And then, there he was.
Brian wanted Kathy to come with him to the courthouse and go through the metal detector.
Investigator Sparkman didn't like the sound of any of it.
We were thinking, all right, that can't happen.And we were trying to figure out, all right, get somebody down to the courthouse and talk to the bailiffs and make sure they turn the metal detectors off.
But Kathy had other ideas.
I don't need to walk through a metal detector.Do you?
Well, then we don't have to talk.I mean, if you don't trust me, then we don't have to talk.You're the one who wants to talk.This is all very mission impossible.I don't understand what's going on.
I want to go to the courthouse, and I want us to go through the metal detectors at the courthouse.
No, I'm not.You could be wearing something.I mean, I could be, and that way we'll both know that we're on the up and up. You don't trust me.I don't trust you.I mean, this is life and death stuff.
I'm protecting myself, and you should view it as protecting yourself unless you have something to hide.
Well, I don't have anything to hide, but I don't understand why you're acting like this.
Because I'm the main suspect in a murder case, Kathy.
It was like someone had tipped Brian off.Or maybe he was just paranoid and happened to be right.But then Brian switched gears.
Where?Anywhere.Where is anywhere?
They'd get one.Brian was suggesting they go somewhere with less surveillance.A nearby lake.Investigator Sparkman listened on, powerless.
And you're thinking, don't do it.This happens.We're going to have to go in to step in, because the last thing you want is her to be with the guy, off by themselves, and her having no protection.
But Kathy said yes.They got in their own cars and headed off, Kathy in front. Tali and the other officers fell in behind them.She started giving the heads up to the cops through her microphone.
OK, so I guess y'all heard all that.And he's following me to Lake Ella.And I hope that's OK.I think he's trying to see if my lips are moving in the car.He's like pretty sure that there's cops here, which he's right.
They pulled over at the lake near a restaurant, the old-time country buffet.Brian got out and walked up to Kathy's car.He finally got to what was on his mind.
I don't know.Why did you come?
Their son, Stafford.He was still in elementary school.
This life is gonna be ruined, and I think you're the only person who can help me avoid that.
Can I ask you a couple questions?
When is everybody saying that I should have at your granny's?
Brian was asking Kathy about the day Mike went missing.He'd said he was at Kathy's grandmother's that day.But Kathy had told detectives that wasn't true.
I know what I remember.I don't know what anybody else has said.
I thought we rode it again.
Well, then maybe you're the one with the bad memory.
It seemed like Brian was trying to figure out how much Kathy had told law enforcement.
You can't even tell me when I showed up, supposedly.
Why am I having to tell you that?I'm not comfortable with that.Why don't you know?
Because I don't remember.If I thought it had been important, or if I thought I should have known, I guess I would have written it all down.But no, I didn't.I didn't think, oh, you know what?I'm going to find out later today that Mike has disappeared.
And in five years, the cops are going to think I did it.I better write down everything I did today.
If you don't remember, then that's your problem.I know what I remember, and I don't like that.
I don't like you just saying you conveniently don't remember.
Because that's awfully convenient.I'm gonna go.Cathy's patience had run out.I'm going to the church.Their practice starts at 3.30.I'll see you over there, but I'm not talking about this around the kids.
With that, she rolled up her window and drove off.A few minutes later, when she was sure she wasn't being followed, Kathy turned into another parking lot.She pulled in alongside investigator Sparkman's unmarked car.
Bryan didn't confess anything.But investigator Sparkman had learned something important.Bryan was scared.Scared that the police had found the hole in his alibi.
He's got 15 hours that we don't know anything about.And there's nothing, you know, there's nothing concrete there.There's nothing evidential.You know, it's just 15 hours.You say, I was out duck hunting here at this time.
But when you're coming back and you're trying to recreate a narrative with your ex-wife on where you were during that time so that you can cover, there must be something in there that's scaring him.
In a quiet suburb, a community is shattered by the death of a beloved wife and mother.But this tragic loss of life quickly turns into something even darker.Her husband had tried to hire a hitman on the dark web to kill her.
And she wasn't the only target. Because buried in the depths of the internet is The Kill List.A cache of chilling documents containing names, photos, addresses and specific instructions for people's murders.
This podcast is the true story of how I ended up in a race against time to warn those whose lives were in danger. And it turns out, convincing a total stranger someone wants them dead is not easy.
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The late 2000s weren't exactly an easy time for Brian and Denise.They were isolated from their old classmates.They were being written about in the press for possible insurance fraud.And Brian believed he was being bugged by law enforcement.
But through it all, Brian and Denise tried to lead a normal life together. At Four Oaks Community Church, they developed a new community of friends where they often spoke of their love of God and their renewed sense of purpose.
Denise wrote to Brian about their new faith a few years after Mike died.I'm so proud of you following God like this.It's so incredible to me that you have come so far in such a short amount of time.We both have.
Our hearts are completely different, and I'm so thankful to God for that.They built a blended family, creating a home where Denise's daughter Ansley and Brian's son Stafford could grow up together.
Brian coached cub and Little League baseball, while Denise volunteered on school committees. But a few years later, in 2012, the strain was beginning to show.
Investigators, like Tully Sparkman, weren't necessarily any closer to cracking the case, but they'd continued to approach Brian and Denise's family and friends, questioning them again about everything that had happened around the time of Mike's disappearance.
Cheryl Williams was still picketing out in front of Brian and Denise's church, demanding action in Mike's case.The whispers had never stopped.Behind the scenes, Brian's paranoia was getting worse.He kept track of Denise's emails and texts.
He monitored her credit card spending.He even logged how much TV she was watching. The upright guy who was involved in Four Oaks Community Church was receding.And the controlling, erratic, threatening Brian was becoming ever more present.
One sunny afternoon, Denise and her friend, Blythe Newsome, were sitting on the grass next to the tennis courts at North Florida Christian.Both their daughters were on the tennis team.
It was the perfect time in between their busy schedules to catch up.
We'd, you know, talk about marriage and whatever, and she would say she's not happy and it's hard.
Blythe had been at both of Denise's weddings. After Micah died, Blythe was one of the few friends who was genuinely glad Denise found somebody new, even if it was Brian.But now Denise seemed miserable.
Her talking about how controlling he was, and there was just no way, there was no way out. Denise sounded almost defeated.This lively, happy girl that I'd grown up with, who had now become a mom and a widow, and now she was a wife again.
I mean, her sparkle was gone.She felt trapped.
Blythe tried to remind Denise that she could leave Brian.That was an option. Denise wasn't sure.It was about more than her and Brian now.
There was also his son Stafford.And she really did love him.And so there was going to be a disruption of Stafford and Ainsley.So many of us know you try and stay together for the kids.
Blythe also knew how Denise's conservative Christian family saw divorce.
Our parents had been beautiful examples of, you get through the ups and downs of marriage, and we were really taught that you really try and work through it and try and stick it out.And I really think that's what she was trying to do.
The Blythes saw that Denise wasn't just reluctant to get divorced.She was afraid.He wasn't going to let anything like that happen.I mean, it was going to be her with him or nobody.He wasn't going to let her go.
Denise opted for a compromise of sorts.She didn't divorce Brian, but she kicked him out of the house and told him he wasn't welcome to come back.Brian moved in with his parents and began to spiral.Gone was God-fearing Brian.
Replacing him was a Mr. Hyde of uninhibited urges, what Brian would later call a, quote, sex addiction.He would watch hours upon hours of porn.Then, when that lost its appeal, he'd seek out prostitutes. He wrote in his diary, I hate myself.
I hate what I've done with my life.And what is ironic and crazy is my method of coping with all this hate makes me hate myself more. One afternoon, Brian's teenage son, Stafford, found photos on Brian's phone showing Brian with prostitutes.
Stafford lost it and declared he was moving in with his mom, Kathy.Brian's spiral only deepened.Finally, Denise decided she needed to take the final step.She filed for divorce. It was a Friday morning, a year later, in August 2016.
All week it had been raining, and the thunderstorms started early that day.At 9 a.m., Denise headed out the front door of the stately brick home she and Mike bought together all those years before.She hopped into her gold Chevy Suburban.
So then I pulled out on the Mississippi Road.She grabbed her phone and dialed her sister, like she did every morning. As she waited for her to pick up, she glanced in her rearview mirror.She froze.
The vision started appearing in my mirror.I just started screaming.There was someone in the car.This person starts climbing out of the very back, and I couldn't tell at first. who it was, and he pulled my face pretty hard.
And he goes, you know, he's cussing, you know, give me the fucking phone.You're going to go up to the roundabout.You will turn here.You will turn here.
Denise recognized the voice.It was her own husband, Brian Winchester.
He's like, you're going to do what I say. And, um, or I'm going to hurt you.And then I said, what do you mean hurt me?That's when Brian showed her what he had in his hand.
He pulled out a gun, like a gun, not a hunting gun, but like a gun that he would kill someone with.I could feel it in the ribs. And he just shoved it there.And he said, do it, turn here.
The gun jammed hard into her side as she tried to keep the car under control.Brian told her to take the next turn into the parking lot of a drugstore.
And he was like, turn here, turn here.And he took the wheel and was trying to force it to turn.And I don't know how, but I just, like, took the wheel back.And I parked right at the front door.So, like, the kid was right there.
Brian locked the doors and pulled her seat belt tight. He held the gun between his legs, pointing it at her.
He's screaming and I'm just like shaking and he's telling me to stop crying that people are going to notice because people were coming in and out the whole time.Well, fine.He just kept saying, I just want to talk to you.Talk to me.
I just want to talk to you.So then I was just like, what do you want to talk about?
For the next hour, Denise listened as Brian begged her not to divorce him.
He told me that he had nothing else to live for. And then he wanted to kill himself.So I said, where did you get this gun?And he said, I bought it to kill myself.I think he was going to do it right there.
But Denise could see Brian wasn't pointing the gun at himself.I said, are you planning on, you know, ending both of our lives today?Denise needed to find a way to calm things down.
I was just kind of agreeing with whatever he was saying. And I was like, I know that you love me.And so he said, I've lost my son.I've lost you.I'm not going to live for.And I was like, O'Brien, you're the only one who can change.
Turn back to the Lord, she told him.Live by God's rules.And so, but the gun's still right there.And I'm just like, what are you doing?Why are you doing this?And he's like, what am I doing?And it's like he kind of woke up.Like, what am I doing?
Denise figured Brian should talk to someone, someone other than her.
I said, I don't want you arrested.I just want to get past this.This can be a rock bottom.And I was like, listen, let me take you.Let's go to your dad's office.We're going to talk to your dad.We're going to get through this.We, I kept saying we.
So then he called his dad from his cell phone, his dad was speaker.And he said, I'm going to a meeting at 11. Then Brian said, well, call me when you get out.I need to talk to you.And he said, OK.And he hung up.And I said, Brian, let me go to work.
Let me go to work.Show my face.People are going to wonder where I'm at.You call me at work, and then I'll come out and meet with you and your dad.I will not call the police.I promised a billion times that I wouldn't call the police.
And I said, and I'll meet you out there, and we'll talk about this.
Brian agreed to the plan.They had been sitting for nearly an hour in that CVS parking lot. Finally, Denise was beginning to see a way out.She pulled the car out, and Brian directed her back to where his truck was parked, just across from her house.
Before he got out, Brian started collecting his things.
He went from the seat to the back row and put his knees there and started pulling stuff out of the back. and shoving it into a backpack.And I saw sheets, I want to say plastic, it really was plastic.
Then he had a bottle, which it was like the spray with the big nozzle.
I would call it a bleach bottle.It dawned on Denise, a plastic sheet and cleaners.The kind of thing you might use to clean up blood from a crime scene.
When I saw the bleach, I was like, I look like I just kind of lost, like I kind of lost it.
And then he starts crying.Brian must have been able to see the look on Denise's face.He kept repeating himself.What have I done?
And what have I done?It's too late for us. I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry.And then he opened the door himself, and he got out, and he shut the door.She saw him one more time that morning.
He pulled up next to me at the line at Capitol Circle, rolled his window down, and he said, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry, and was crying.And I said, I know, and he turned right to headboard, and then I went on.
Once Brian was out of sight, she did something she'd promised him she'd never do. Something she hadn't done during her entire relationship with Brian.She went to the sheriff's office.
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Dave McCraney still had his cup of morning coffee in his hand when the phone rang.It was Denise.He knew her well.He was married to her younger sister.But he also happened to be a police officer, which was why Denise was calling.
She was crying and sobbing, but Dave could understand enough to realize something serious had happened.He told her to get to the sheriff's office right now. It was Dave's day off, but he jumped in the car and headed that way.
Dave never worked the Mike Williams case because he was a family member.But he always had his suspicions that Brian had something to do with it.And now, hearing that Brian held Denise at gunpoint that morning, it only reinforced those suspicions.
When he arrived at the sheriff's office, Denise had already walked two deputies through what happened. Dave agreed to go into the interrogation room and talk with her, too.
When Denise started talking to the deputies, she'd seem wired, like the adrenaline rush of her terrifying kidnapping hadn't yet worn off. Now, talking to her cop brother-in-law Dave, she seemed exhausted.
But Denise still didn't seem quite ready to admit to herself what had just happened.She told Dave that Brian said he was planning just to kill himself.
She didn't seem to want to think about why Brian had taken along the plastic sheet and the cleaners.Dave knew exactly why they were there.
Denise, he was going to kill you.And for whatever reason, he lived through with it.He brought that stuff using the coverage tracks.And I'm sorry.You know that I love you.And I would never let anything happen to you.
But I'm not going to sit here and sugarcoat stuff.You did the right thing by calling me, but Denise, he was going to kill you.
Denise was crying now, shaking her head, wiping tears away from her eyes. Dave was going to try to push Denise out of her denial.He told her Brian had controlled her, that he had ruined her life.
And not just that, Dave was going to try to use this chance to get Denise to finally reveal what had gone on between Brian and Mike.
I know, Denise.He did it.And you know exactly what I'm talking about.I don't think you did anything ever whatsoever to be held dead over your head forever. And he was gonna do it again.He wasn't just killing himself, Denise.
He was gonna kill you so that you couldn't talk about him later.That is the truth.
Dave hunched over real close.This wasn't a typical interview with a random suspect.This was family.Denise kept wiping tears from under her glasses, kept shaking her head, kept taking in what Dave was saying.
She reached for a tissue from a box on the table.
I've talked to everybody I know over the years, for 15 years, about how and what we could do.15 years ago, he walked in and told you you'd done something.
I don't think he would kill me.Dave tried again.This time, more direct.Back then about what?
I never had any reason to believe that he would do that.I mean, I never would have believed.
Do you remember the time you went to Atlanta when you had a boyfriend up there and he showed up with a gun?
Chuck Bunker, the boyfriend Brian chased off.Denise nodded, but her mood seemed to be shifting.
What makes you think he wouldn't do something like that?
I guess because, not now, but he And obviously this doesn't... He loves the Lord.He was a Christian.That's why I married him.
Denise held her hands in her lap.Her tears had stopped.She was regaining her composure.
She kept talking about how, even after everything that had happened in their relationship, everything that had happened that day, she couldn't believe Brian would hurt her.And certainly, she couldn't believe that he would have done anything to Mike.
I know I keep telling you about it, but I'm telling you, you killed Mike. And he did it for you because he wanted you.And I know that's hard, and I know it hurts.But by God, I'm telling you, that's what happened.He didn't care about you.
He didn't care about Ainsley.He only cares about himself.He made Mike disappear, and he was going to make you disappear today.And you have got to get that in your head.I'm telling you.
I don't think you had anything to do with it, but he held that over you.And I'm sure at some point he told you something. And I'm not trying to get you in trouble, because I don't think you did anything, Denise.
But I'm telling you, you killed Mike, and he was going to kill you if you go away.You need to hear that, and you need to hear it a lot.You were going to die today.You got lucky.
Denise was swinging back and forth.One minute she was trying to defend Brian, trying to rationalize his actions.The next, Denise would collapse into sobs, seem genuinely terrified.
Dave was trying to keep her in that place, to get her to admit that Brian had always been capable of horrible violence.
Think about the man who brought something to bury you with, who brought plastic, who brought bleach to cover his tracks.Why doesn't it make sense?He's nuts.He killed your husband.
Okay, if he is nuts, that crazy, then again, I can't have an officer live with me 24-7. I can't, I'm about to save.
Dave followed Denise's logic.They needed to put Brian away for a long time.And a restraining order wasn't a permanent solution.But something else would be.
If he goes to prison for murder, you'll never see him again.He killed Mike.And he buried Mike where no one could ever find him.That is the truth.
I'm wondering if you're thinking of the same place today that he buried Mike, because he's done it before.You have to wrap your mind around it, Denise.That is what he has done, and he's willing to do it again.He is going to kill you.
Dave stopped for a moment, and they sat there in silence.Was Denise finally going to do it? Finally going to decide that opening up to law enforcement was safer than living in a world where Brian could be a free man?But she pulled herself back.
Whenever Dave seemed like he was going to get the confession he wanted, it was like some instinct kicked in in Denise.No matter what, no matter the costs, don't talk about what happened to Mike. Dave and Denise had been talking for over an hour.
He had seen Denise was terrified, but he hadn't gotten what he wanted.He got up, told her he'd go check on things, and left the room.A few minutes later, another investigator walked in.Mike Devaney.
For the last six years, Special Agent Devaney had been trying to solve the disappearance of Mike Williams.When he received the call that Denise Williams was at the sheriff's office, he raced over immediately.What were the chances?
A leading suspect in a murder investigation had walked into a sheriff's office of her own accord.Agent Devaney didn't waste any time before cutting straight to the point.
Where do you think Mike's buried?
Oh, I have no idea.Any speculation on that?On where he's buried?Buried.
I mean, I believe... You don't really believe he died on the lake?
Why?I just always hung up.That's what I believe.Denise was back in defensive mode.Her tears were gone.She was alert, parrying everything Agent Devaney threw at her.
Why do you think Mike perished in the lake? I just... He didn't die in Lake Seminole, okay?
I don't... That's what I've always believed.That's what I believe.
I've never been proven anything different.
I don't... Well, is there any proof he... If he would have perished in that lake, he would have been found.Okay?There's never been a person that has fallen or whatever That's just what I believe.Agent Devaney wasn't getting anywhere.
Right.But I guess right now, I need to focus on this and what happened this morning.And I want to get this restraining order done by 5 o'clock.And I want, I mean, I want me and my daughter to be safe.
And that's what... Well, there's no doubt that Brian's going to be located and put in jail.
But Agent Devaney told her to consider. What would happen when law enforcement questioned Brian?Denise had made it clear she wasn't going to tell investigators what happened to Mike.But Brian might make a different choice.
What if he starts talking about the past?Way in the past?
I don't know.I have no idea what he's going to say.
Yeah.What if he starts talking about the disappearance of Mike?
I hope he admits this morning.I hope he admits what he did. If they ask him about Mike, I have no idea.I mean, we'll see.
While they spoke, sheriff's deputies pulled up in a commercial park in the north part of Tallahassee.At nearly four in the afternoon, law enforcement watched as a man exited the building and walked towards a truck.
Before he could get in, officers jumped out of their vehicles and confronted him.Brian Winchester was under arrest and charged with kidnapping, aggravated assault, and armed burglary.The Mike Williams case now hinged on one big question.
Would Brian refuse to talk about what happened to Mike, just like Denise?Or would he decide he was cornered and do whatever it took to save himself?
He wants to pay me $50,000 cash for him to go free.
That's on the next episode of Over My Dead Body, Gone Hunting. From Wondery, this is episode four of six of Over My Dead Body, Gone Hunting, a series about the extremes of love and betrayal.
Over My Dead Body, Gone Hunting is hosted by me, Jennifer Portman.This series is written and reported by Eric Barton.Producer is Denise Chan.Senior producer is Russell Finch.Story editor is Eric Benson.Consulting producer is me, Jennifer Portman.
Production assistance by Evangeline Barras.Sound design and mixing by Michelle Macklem. Music supervisor is Scott Velasquez for Friesan Sync.Fact-checking by Annika Robbins.Senior managing producer is Lata Pandya.
Managing producer is Olivia Weber, and coordinating producer is Heather Beloga.Executive producers are George Lavender, Marshall Louis, and Jen Sargent for Wondery.
