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Hey weirdos, I'm Ash.And I'm Elena.And this is a sickly movie.
This is a We Both Have COVID recording.Morbid.This episode brought to you by the Rona.This episode brought to you by germs.Yeah, so we just came off of my little mini book tour and we came home with a present. And the present was death.COVID.
Yeah, so this is, we're recording in two separate places, which we haven't done in a long, long, long, long time.
It's giving like pandemic 2020 days.Yeah.When I like lived with Drew.Well, I lived with you for a little bit.
But then I went to live with Drew and we had to Zoomination record. I'm working on my home office, but it's not quite done yet.
You know, we do what we can do here.We just.We weren't going to not give you this episode.Are you kidding me?Fuck that.
Never would we say no episode.We did wait a day. That accent was good.Sorry.
That was good.How dare you not acknowledge that?That was really good.But we did wait a day to record it.We were going to record it yesterday, but yesterday I literally was not among the living.
Yeah, my COVID's not bad.Like I came up positive and I was like, wow, that's weird.I feel like pretty fine.
Yeah, you're the asymptomatic bitch.
I've never had COVID asymptomatic, so that's cool.
It's weird.It's weird to have an asymptomatic.
Yeah, because I feel fine, but I'm not allowed to go anywhere.
You, on the other hand, Elena FaceTimed me yesterday, and I'm usually one to make people feel better.I think I, Mikey, it was me, Mikey, and Elena FaceTiming, and I audibly gasped when she answered.She went, oh my gosh.
I've never seen you look so sick.I was the sickest I've ever been yesterday.I feel still terrible today, but I feel much better than I did yesterday.
You look a million times better.When I opened the Zoom, I said, there she is.Thank God, that's the sister I know.It was scary shit we were working with yesterday.
It was real rough.Yeah, but it's okay. But you know what?Here we are.I'm rallying.I'm in a place called space.Yeah.
So what we what we're doing for you today is we did so I covered the DeFeo murders last time, which were horrific and terrible and tragic.
And we gave you a little bit of the how, you know, his lawyer, William Weber, there was claiming that there was voices that were telling him to do it in the house.It's a little sneaky peeky into what was to come.
William Weber really, he's really the mastermind behind the at least the nugget that made this happen.And today we're going to cover the Amityville horror conspiracy.Oh, man.
It's a conspiracy because for a long, long time, it was considered true, like completely true. I grew up thinking this was like real, real as fuck.And the thing is, I think there's truths in there, but it has been exaggerated to such a degree.
Like they didn't just go into this thinking like, let's make a crazy horror story and we'll pass it off as true.They took it into such a place that I was like, how would you ever think no one would question some of these things?
The bleeding walls is where they lost me.Even as a young youth, I was like, I've never seen that.
Yeah.And it's like, and what's crazier is I think we covered a case.It was like a case.Of course I can't recall where it was.Oh, I know exactly what you're talking about.
The house bled.It's literally called the bleeding house.My dad sent it to me.I think it was a Patreon episode.
Yeah.We're going to, then you know what?Maybe we'll revive it again because.
It's a very interesting one because that one I kind of believe.
That actually, okay, so I said they lost me with the bleeding walls because Amityville did, but I completely believed this other couple with the bleeding walls.Because their walls were, I think they were bleeding less intensely.Yeah, I think so.
It's all about the level of blood with which you get.
There's a few things in this story that you just say, you took it too far.You took it too far.And in the end, we'll see what happens here.And we'll see the possible reasons for this going the way it went.But again, exactly.
But again, I think that given what happened in this house, There's got to be something going on in there, for sure.Yeah, I'm sure there's like leftover residual bad energy.So let's start off in 1975, shall we?I love the 70s, so we fucking shall.
Let's go. Newlyweds George and Kathy Lutz started looking for a home for themselves in Kathy's three kids from a previous marriage.Lovely.She had Daniel, who was nine years old, Christopher, seven years old, and Melissa, five years old.
Little youths, little youths, little babies.
George needed to stay in the Long Island area because he was the owner of a Long Island surveying company, so really that was the only criteria that was like non-negotiable was that they needed to stay in the area.Okay.
Other than that, they really, other things they had on the list of like things they were really looking for was they really wanted to be on the water and they also needed the house to fall into their budget of $30,000 to $50,000.
Was that a lot for back then?Yeah, like well it wasn't a lot, but it was house money back then, you know?Like that was, right now we look at that and we go, holy shit.I'm like, I don't even think you could buy like a used vehicle for that.
No, probably not now, but in 1975 you could definitely buy a house.Get a nice waterfront property.Could you conceivably get the Amityville house?No.Yeah, no.Which is interesting.So, and again, remember that's their budget.
$30,000 to $50,000 was where they had to stay.So by the time they decided to check out the little town of Amityville, George and Kathy had actually already seen about 60 or so homes in their price range.Damn.
Yeah.You guys got to pick one.
Yeah, I say this all the time because I have one of my children has my husband's inability to make a decision where they get like paralysis about deciding about things.And I always tell her, I'm like, you could look forever for the right thing.
And you'll never find it.You'll never, because you'll always be thinking that there's something else out there that's better than this one thing that you chose.You got to make a decision and you got to stand strong in your decision.
It's like wedding dress shopping.Once you find the one, stop looking. Stop looking.That's your best advice that you gave me.
Yeah, because you'll always keep thinking there's something just a little bit better that you haven't seen yet.
And if you have that mindset, you're going to just keep finding that something better, and then you're just going to drive yourself insane.
Yeah, and you'll never be happy with what you choose.
So it seems like that's what happened to George and Kath here.
Yeah, I'm like, you guys got to stop. But none of these other homes were really singing to them enough for them to even consider putting in an offer.So they hadn't even put in an offer.
Because of this, George really didn't have high hopes, wink wink, nudge nudge, because they had that sign out there that said high hopes.He didn't really have high hopes when he called the Conklin Realty office in Massapequa Park
But the realtor on the other end of the line, Edith Evans, told George that, you know what, you're in luck because a new house just came on the market.And it is a little outside of your price range, but it really meets your other needs.
And I think you should at least look at it. Now interesting that it's out of their price range because it seems like that was one of their like main things was they were not coming out of that budget.They really couldn't.
So like why even look at this one if it's outside of your price range?Oh sometimes it's just fun. But it's not, because you can't afford it.So it's like you're just looking at something.It's really terrible, but also fun.
Yeah, but it's like you can't have it.So the house at 112 Ocean Avenue, does that address sound familiar from last episode?It did seem to meet the Lutz's needs, and then some, really.It was an old Dutch colonial.
It had a massive yard, an enclosed porch with a wet bar.It had a heated swimming pool.Oh, motherfucker. right?It had more than enough room for the kids and it was on the water and even had a dock and a boathouse.
Damn, I didn't realize it had a boathouse too.Oh yeah, the DeFeos were very, very wealthy.I guess so.Now, of course, as Edith Evans had already warned them, it was out of their price range at $80,000.Remember, Their budget is between $30 and $50.
It's like more than double their price range.Yeah, I was like, why even bother looking at this?Yeah, that's not a great real estate agent.No, that's way outside of your price range.
But there was no denying that it was an absolutely beautiful property and exactly what they were looking for when they set out to buy a house.So they had to consider it.All right.
When Edith told George the price over the phone, they expected to find it, you know,
in badly need of repair, to be honest, or have some other expensive defect, because although that was way out of their price range, it was much lower than what that house was worth.It sounds like it.Yeah, when they saw it, they were like, What?
Like this is $80,000.It's fucking massive.It's got a boathouse.It's got all the shit.
That's when you ask who died here.
Exactly.Exactly.And he was even coming furnished.Wow.Oh, that's when you absolutely ask who died there.Because what's even crazier is it had been on the market for nearly a year and no one had put in offers on it.
Okay, that's when... No, I'm just kidding.No, that's when you say... There's many red flags being thrown up here.
It's like the TikTok guy running around with the giant red flags.
Yes.If it seems too good to be true, it might be too good to be true.
So when George asked about, you know, the relatively low asking price and, you know, the lack of interest for about a year on this thing, the realtor, you know what, she didn't, I got to give it to her, she didn't bother to dance around the reality of the situation.
She wasn't like, well, you know, she was like, yeah. So in November of this year, 24, or of last year, excuse me, 24-year-old Ronald DeFeo Jr.
had snapped one night when room by room shooting and killing all six members of his family with a .35 caliber rifle, including small children.
She was like, so that's why.
I would have ran for the fucking hills.
I would have gone, okay, well, we're looking at house number 62 today.Yeah, you know what?
And she even let them know that at the trial, DeFeo's lawyer said that the young man was insane when he committed the murders and for months that he had been hearing voices in the house telling him to kill.
And, you know, there was all the tales in the town, like, you know, everybody had their own little, like, myths and legends about the house, now that the house is what made them do it.
Everyone in New York, and perhaps even the entire country at this point, had heard of the murders, so she was like, this, you know, this is the house.You're gonna hear about it.You definitely know the house.
She actually, she was like, it was actually strange to her that they didn't recognize the house, because it was everywhere. And if you guys remember, the original Amityville house has those very iconic windows that look like eyes.
They're not there anymore.The new owners have since taken them out so that it will not be as recognizable, which good for them. But yeah, she was like, you know, it's like very iconic looking house.
I'm actually surprised that you've never seen this and that you didn't know what you were walking into, to be quite honest.
And what's even wilder is if either of the Lutzes had been paying close attention when they walked through the house, they would have noticed there was a scarring in bullet holes that remained from the murders.
Yeah.Fuck that.There was even some faint chalk outlines from the ongoing investigation into the murders still in the house.Yeah.
You gotta run.And meanwhile, they're like, where do we sign?
Yeah, like, that's it.So to Edith's complete surprise, George and Kathy insisted the Holmes' recent tragic and gruesome events, quote, weren't something that would bother them when it came to choosing a house.Which, like, OK.
I'm like, so what does bother you?What's on your note?What's on your call list?
What's your like boundary line?Non-negotiables.Do you have them?And here's the thing.I can understand like the new owners of this house, like the owners now.
yeah you know so much time has gone by that's the thing i can understand there's a little bit of distance you know like it's it's history history has happened in that house it's tragic awful history but yes it's history
But to do it within like the same year, I feel like that's like, I don't know, I feel like the energy, because you and I have said it, walking into, you know, the S.K.
Pierce mansion and especially walking into the Lizzie Borden house, the Lizzie Borden house has an energy you can't describe.And that was how long ago?Hundreds of years ago at this point.
hundreds yeah so it's like i don't understand how this house within that year didn't have the most dark and heavy energy i'm sure it did and i feel like it had to do you think like obviously we're gonna get there and in the story where it kind of comes out that they were big fakers do you think they were looking for something like this and they they knew about the amityville horror
I don't even think they were looking.I think it was just a happy accident that they were able to, and I think once they, I think they knew when they went into this house what it was.Okay.
Like, I don't think they were, they were ignorant to the fact that this was the DeFeo house.
yeah I just like with all the news coverage and everything and having been so soon yeah and they were in New York I just don't buy it yeah they're in New York I mean come on yeah that's the thing I mean maybe I'm wrong maybe they didn't know but they definitely rolled with it that's for sure I can't say it's something I would do no but I'm huge on energy so
Yeah.Now, they told Edith, you know, it's not a problem.They said neither of them were particularly religious.They weren't really believers in the paranormal.
So the murders, while very tragic and upsetting, they just said it was kind of just historical fact at this point.It was like historical fact within the year.
Despite being astronomically outside of their budget, they couldn't deny that the house was a bargain for what it was.And it was exactly what they were looking for.
So George and Kathy put in an offer at the asking price, plus they added an additional $400 for the furniture.Wow.I know, which was accepted by the seller.
And on December 13, just weeks after Ronald DeFeo was convicted for the murder of his entire family in that house, George, Kathy, and the kids moved into the Amityville house, setting into motion a chain of events that would forever change not only the Lutzes' lives, but the entire town of Amityville,
I know they're probably like, fuck off.
Yeah, Amityville is literally like, fuck you Lutzes.
Because like we said, it's like a really nice area.It is.
It's like a quiet coastal town.Yeah, it's a little seaside town.Like very cute, very sweet, very very cutesy cutesy.And this was not part of that vibe.
Now, as George, Kathy, and a small collection of friends were unloading the trailer and moving things into the house, the couple's priest, Reverend Ralph Pecoraro, arrived to bless the house.
Even though they said they weren't religious?
Thank you.Because so neither George nor Kathy considered themselves particularly religious.They did attend church on a fairly regular basis, and the Reverend, according to them, had been helpful to them when they were getting married.
He had been part of their whole marriage process, which to me... Is religious.If you have a priest on call, like your priest on call, you are somewhat religious.
Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know, but I'm like, I don't have a priest on call, and I consider myself not religious. Same.But I feel like if you've got a priest, there's a little nugget of religion in there.
If you have one, if you have a priest on call, if a priest helped you throughout your wedding process and then a priest is coming to bless your house that you just bought.
You're religious.You're religious. And that's fine.Yeah, there's nothing wrong with that.Like, do you.
It's just weird to say you're not when you very clearly are.That's part of the strangeness of the Lutzes and it gets even stranger when it comes to this priest.I bet, I bet. Yeah.
So, you know, of course they said they were going to have their priest, even though they're not religious, come bless their new home.Like, why wouldn't they?
And, you know, according to them, Reverend Pecoraro was more than happy to bless their new home.But when the day finally came,
According to all the reports, he couldn't shake this feeling of just like yuckiness, like unease that had been with him since he'd woken up that morning.
Well, yeah, you know that you're going to a house where a family was just brutalized.I mean, that'll do it.
Like I would wake up feeling a little funky as well.The same. He said the feeling stuck with him through his lunch appointment with friends, but he was still there when he, you know, when they pulled in the driveway, he arrived.
He just decided, you know, I'm going to go and I'm going to do it.So he knocked on the front door.They let him in.
He went room to room conducting the blessing ritual, which included like, you know, flicking holy water around and, you know, uttering prayers kind of thing.Like everything we've seen of like somebody blessing something, you know.Sure.
The ritual was one he'd conducted a billion times for parishioners over the years.Like, this is a very normal thing that people do.So he'd done it a ton of times.It was almost like muscle memory at this point, you know what I mean?
It's a very, he knows how to do it.He's got a lot of experience.But he said this time was different because when he entered one of the rooms upstairs, which he later learned was John and Mark DeFeo's room, the one they shared together.
he flicked the holy water, started saying the prayer, and all of a sudden from behind him, he heard a deep voice of a man clearly say, get out.I would leave.
Yeah, I mean, I think that's very thing.
Yeah, I think that's, I mean, this person is telling you get out.I think it's time to get out.Bye.I would leave.You don't need to ask me twice.You don't need to say it twice.So
It startled him, so he whirled around, not knowing what to expect, but no one was there.So he was like, oh.So he left that room immediately and quickly finished blessing the other rooms of the house, because he was there to do a job.
So he's like, I'm going to finish it.And he's like, and obviously this house needs the blessing, because that just happened.So then he all but ran downstairs towards the door.And George and Kathy thanked him for coming.
And they were like, oh, do you want to stay for dinner?But he was like, no, thank you.I have other plans by.And he just left. The priest said, fuck that.He said, absolutely not.Good luck.
So as they walked out to the car, the Reverend mentioned that he'd recently learned the house had been where the notorious DeFeo murders happened.And to his surprise, he said, George just said, yeah, like we knew it when we bought the house.
Like, it's fine.He's like, that's why we figured it was such a bargain.So it worked out for us.And he was like,
oh he said two thumbs up yeah that's totally fine we knew that so they just kind of chatted for a bit about the tragedy before pecoraro got in his car and left without telling them what had just happened in the bedroom upstairs so he didn't say it to him you gotta tell people when that shit kind of happens you gotta let him know you know just for good measure
Now according to George and Kathy Lutz, things started happening almost immediately after they moved into the house and had it blessed.
On November 19th, or excuse me, December 19th, George was woken up at 3.15 in the morning by a very loud knocking at the front door.
So he was like, why the fuck is someone at our house in the middle of the night?And why are they knocking like that?And he sat there and kind of listened for a minute. And then he was like, wait, it's not coming from the front door.
But he said it was coming from somewhere off to his left in the bedroom, like he couldn't figure it out, like somewhere else in the house.So he got out of bed and he started investigating the rooms on the second floor.
And he assumed one of the kids was up like making noise or something.But he checked and all the kids were asleep.
So he had just entered the sewing room, which was across from the main bedroom, which was this room, the sewing room was John and Mark DeFeo's bedroom.And he said as he was in there looking around, something outside on the lawn caught his eye.
So from the window upstairs, George could see that something was moving outside by the boathouse.He said it looked like a person, but like also not a person. It was vaguely the shape of a man, but he couldn't tell any features.He was pretty far away.
So he called out of the window, hey, who's there?No, call the police.And the commotion caught the attention of Harry, the family's dog, who started trailing the shadow through the yard because he was like, I'm going to fuck you up.
So George, George called out again and this time instructed Harry, go get him. But the dog was on a leash, like it was tied up, so he couldn't get as far as the figure was.
So George went downstairs to investigate further, but after a few minutes he was like, I can't find it.Whatever it was is gone.So he tried to go back to sleep, but he honestly couldn't go back to sleep.
He was just laying in bed worrying about whether he made a mistake buying this house, essentially.
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You're welcome.This is literally when I always have issues here.At this point, I'm calling the National Guard and being like, there's a shadow figure outside of my, but like, fuck that.I'm never going back to sleep.Yeah.
It's not happening.When that whole thing happened where it was like three or four o'clock in the morning and it was like the middle of a blizzard and I talk about it on Assembly Safe Ad if you guys listen to the ads.
I got like a knock on the door between like three or four in the morning and it happened like consecutively until like 6 a.m.I called the fucking police.Hell yeah.And they checked out the area and they found nothing but footprints.
How fucking terrifying is that?I hate that so much.I bought a SimpliSafe the very next day, baby.Hell yeah, fuck that shit.But yeah, like why would you not call someone?
That's the thing, like you're not, and this is, I mean, it's 1975, so I was gonna be like, get a fucking security system.I don't know how badass they were back then, so.
I mean, at least it's something.I mean, you have a dog.
Did they even have them back then?At least you have a dog.Dogs will fuck people up.That's true.Especially when he was able to say, go get him, and Harry was off to business, you know.To be able to be in a place of sickum boy, I'm obsessed.Oh, yeah.
It's the best.We already have Sid and Blanche on like, they're the sweetest pups.And then when we say, get it, they'll fuck you up.They'll get it.They're bigums.It's a nice feeling.They were going to fuck up a coyote the other night.
I was like, don't do that.Come back in.Yeah, no, we don't need that.No, we made them come back in because we're like, do not attack a coyote.But they had zero fear.They were like, fuck that.
That's their family.They're looking out for you.
Those are my bitches right there, literally.Quite literally, yep.Quite literally.But when he said he just like went back upstairs and tried to go back to sleep, I was like, no.
Also, how do you go back to sleep after that?Like, I don't know.
And he didn't.I mean, he was definitely up all night.But it's like, you have three kids in the house.There's no way I could sleep after that.Yeah, no.
So in the days after that, there was obvious tension that started forming in the house that Kathy couldn't explain.She said from the moment she had introduced George to her kids, because he's their stepfather, they had all gotten along very well.
They loved him.He loved them.Since they got married, they had on their own volition started calling him dad.It was a good fit. But ever since they moved into the house, George's appreciation for the children, we'll say, had been wearing thin.
And he'd started losing his temper with them a lot.And he'd never, ever done this before, according to Kathy.Had he lived with children before?
he had I guess they had been together a lot like you know they had he had never lost his temper like or shown an inclination that he would lose his temper I'm like them neither did some of my stepdads until we lived with them that's so awful but well and he started referring to them as brats
to her, which he never did.Like he never did that.I'd square the fuck up.Oh, that's that's the thing.So and then he called them misbehaved monsters who wouldn't listen.He called them unruly children who much must be severely punished.Oh, baby.
Baby, when I tell you this man would be in fucking orbit at this point, I'd be like, get the fuck out of my family.Get the fuck out of my house.Yeah.
I'd be like, you can go live with the shadow man.Bye.
Yeah.You go live in the boathouse, sir.Like, see you later.Yeah.No, your kids come first.Yeah.Like, fuck that.You know that talking shit about your kids?Yeah. No.
You know the sound it's Christopher Walken on TikTok when he says, you're talking to my guy all wrong.Do it again, I'll stab you in the face with a soldering iron.That's you.That's my energy.
So when it comes to the kids, you're talking to my guy all wrong.Now, again, though, they recognize that this was a big change in behavior. So much, it wasn't like a change like, oh, I guess he's just getting used to living with kids.
It was like, who is this man?Like, unrecognizable.Yeah, an unrecognizable man.Even George started to notice a change in everyone's personality, especially his.
And author Jay Anson, who wrote a book on this subject that we'll link in the show notes, he said it was not a big thing, just little bits and pieces here and there.
So it was like, it was a big change in his personality, but it was like it would come in small bits. You know, like it wasn't an overall change.It would suddenly like start rolling out.
Yeah Like there was that big it was like big chunks of changes I should say like a big change in his personality with the kids.So that happens all at once Okay, but nothing nothing really else.So he's still the same George other than that
But then a few days later, he was always very meticulous when it came to his hygiene.He was a very clean man.He kept himself together.We respect that.But he stopped.Yeah.
But then a few days later, not only is he being shitty about the kids, but now he's being shitty about the kids and irritable.And he's also not shaving or showering every day. And he would go days without going into his work, like his office.
He's irritable, he smells bad, and he's getting lazy.
Yes.That's no bueno.Get out of here.So before they moved in, George had planned to move his office into the house.But now that they were all moved in and unpacked, he just abandoned that plan.He just wasn't doing anything.
Now George wasn't the only one experiencing strange shit in the house or like you know a change.Kathy was also starting to experience things but she was starting to see and feel things that were like off-putting.
Now a few days before Christmas Kathy was standing in the kitchen writing out a list of gifts that they still needed to buy for people when she felt someone or something according to her come up from behind and embrace her.
Now, she wasn't startled.She said she weirdly felt comforted by the presence.Huh.And she said it seemed to reach out and take her hand very gently and gave it a soft pat like her mother used to do when she was young.Oh, wow.
So that's kind of beautiful. I know, I'm like, was that like, you know, the mom?Maybe.Was that Mrs. DeFeo?
Or don't some people, I don't want to get there before you do, but don't some people think that there's a portal?
So maybe her mom passed through or something?
Yeah, there you go.Who knows?So the illusion though was broken by the sound of Chris calling from the other room, screaming for his mom to come upstairs.
So the boys were in the upstairs bathroom looking down at the toilet bowl and Kathy looked in and saw that the bowl was entirely black.
Like it had been painted black.
Almost.Like that's how black it was.So she flushed the toilet several times, but it stayed.
So she was like, I'm confused about this because I just scrubbed the bathroom a few days earlier.Everything was spotless.The toilet did not look like this.She was like, what the fuck?
From down the hall, Kathy could hear her other son, Danny, yelling for her to come quick to the other bathroom.Danny was in the bathroom off of his parents' bedroom to get cleaning supplies to try to help clean that toilet bowl.
But when he went inside, he saw that that one was completely black, too, and it was emitting a foul odor.
Maybe you got a septic problem.
That's what I'm saying.So the stench was so bad that it forced them out into the hall and they started yelling for George, who noticed the smell as soon as he got to the second floor landing.It was that bad.Gross.
So they ran from room to room opening all the windows.But when Kathy got into the sewing room, which again was John and Mark DeFeo's bedroom, she was stunned to find that both the windows were covered with black house flies.
And it wasn't like a few flies.It was like covered.Ew.Now, it's not crazy for a New England home to have problems with flies.Yeah.Like, we all can confirm that.We all get flies.
Even if you're the cleanest house in the world during the summer, you're gonna get flies.But not that many.
Not to like cover all your windows.
Well, and also, remember, this is the dead of winter. Oh, right, this is December, right?You shouldn't be having a problem with flies.They're pretty dormant in the winter.And like, dead.Yeah, like, and dead.And like, not alive.Yeah.
So things escalated from there.Within a few days, five-year-old Melissa began frequently mentioning that she had a new friend named Jody. And Kathy asked her daughter one afternoon, is that one of your new dolls?And she said, no, Jody's a pig.
He's my friend.No one can see him but me.
the way my entire body just got covered in goosebumps.That's when you throw the whole kid away.You say, you know what?You are such a little sweetheart, but we have two others who are also pretty great, so I gotta give you the boot, babe.
You know what?You've ran out your welcome here.So one evening, as George was putting Melissa to bed, she started talking about Jodi.And George was like, oh, okay, where did your friend go?And she said, he'll be right back.
He had to go outside for a minute. So like Kathy, George was assuming that Jodi, you know, was Melissa's new imaginary friend, which is an alarming for kids to create, especially at that age.
And they'll get very like serious about their imaginary friends.They'll tell you where they are, what they're doing.Like you're sitting on my new friend, you know, like that kind of thing.
Luke Skywalker back in the day.
My boy.Yeah, your boy, exactly.Naughty Martha.I had naughty Martha who did all the things that I did.That you did not do.But that's, so it's like, it's weird and alarming when it happens, but also not because you're like, this is a kid thing.
It's a very normal stage of development.
Yeah.So at this point, George and Kathy are both thinking that Jodi's a new pig friend that she's got.Sure. But that night, after he tucked her into bed, Melissa all of a sudden said, there he is, Daddy, and pointed towards the window.
And he was like, oh, OK.So he's like, I'm going to look.So when he turns to look, he said he saw two fiery red eyes staring at him through the second floor window.Bye.Bye.And she said, that's Jody.He wants to come in.
I'd say he has to sleep outside tonight, unfortunately.Yeah, he has to sleep outside forever.Eternity.That's just weird.Yeah, he's a pig.He likes it out there.Yeah.And she was not afraid of Jodi.That's the thing.Like there was no fear.
She was excited.Well, kids learn to be afraid.There's Jodi.
Yeah.There's my boy Jodi.Yeah.My little pig friend.He wants to come in.Let my guy in.
Let my guy in.You're talking to my guy all wrong. So he was like, okay, no.So he was like, I'm going to say goodnight.He'll find his way in, I guess.Bye.
So over the course of their time in the house, the attacks on the Lutzes, you know, went from unseen forces.And then all of a sudden, and that you can almost like believe that there was energy.
there was energy that maybe they were hearing things, maybe you could see something out of the corner of your eye, like that kind of thing.If they had just stuck with that, I would have been like, probably.Yeah.Yeah.A hundred percent.
Like I probably would have believed that.Yes.But then it started, and even this, it like the ephemeral stuff, like going from like smelling foul odors kind of thing.Like I, even that I can get.
I believe in that because I feel like there's like science behind that.
Yeah, and it's like, you can even go with the infestation of flies and the disembodied voices, that kind of stuff.You're like, I believe that that could have probably happened.And then it started getting physically assaultive.
And this is where I'm out.This is where I get.And it's not because I don't believe that you can be physically assaulted.In the way that they were.Okay. I don't know though.
So I don't know a lot about the ways that they were physically assaulted.I know like the big things in the case, like the bleeding walls and the flies and the priest and all that.
I told I agree with you I believe you could be physically assaulted but I'm interested to hear how they were.
So one evening everyone's asleep and they claim to have been woken up by knocking sounds that quickly escalated to the point that it was so crazy that the windows cracked and the doors were blown off the hinges.Okay.
Unless it's a hurricane.I don't know if I believe you.
Yeah, like Lutz's you really had me going for a minute there. You lost me here.
It's the windows cracking.
I would believe that a door got blown open because like I've seen that shit.Oh, no, it didn't get blown open.It got blown off the hinges.
Yeah.Like, oh, you tell me a door got blown open?For sure.Yes.Absolutely.Off the hinges.Blown off the hinges?No hurricane in sight?No.Nah.Yeah.So also, so that happened.And then
even though George is slowly sinking into becoming a feral human being at this point, he's also finding himself constantly freezing in the house, like could not get warm, and he would spend hours every day just sitting in front of the fire trying to get warm.
I don't like that at all.
Yeah, so This next one is the one where I say, well, if the door is blown off the hinges and the windows cracking didn't make you go, huh, then I feel like this one probably should.Okay, let's go, girls.
So, one night in January, when they were sleeping, Kathy and George, you know, were suddenly woken up because Kathy was lifted off the bed by an unseen force, and George watched her be carried off into the direction
she can't even get through it she said she said i'm not there i'm just picturing watching john be like bye oh no that's silly that's silly goo shit i just can't so she got carried off in the direction of the closet in the closet they had not found a use for this closet apparently yet
It's a closet in there, I don't know you should use it as a closet put your shoes in there, I guess So, oh, I'm crying.Um, so I don't know what happened here.Apparently she's got it.She got
carried off to the closet and the next day, so apparently they dropped her and she was fine.The next day, George went over to investigate said closet because his wife was carried off into the wild blue yonder over there.
So he was like, I should see what's going on over there.
I love that there's no additional detail of that night.She got carried over to the closet and then the next morning he went to check it out.I'm like, what about the in-between time? Did she get up off the floor?Did you help her?
Did you stay the night there?Did she get picked up again?They did.Was she yelling?I need so much more detail.They stayed the night there.Was she scared?Was she crying?I would cry probably.I would cry.
Did you just go back into your bed after that and you're like, whoa, that was crazy.What a ride. Hello?
I was watching Scooby-Doo last night and that is giving major Scooby-Doo vibes.
All I want to hear is them pulling the mask off of somebody in the closet.You meddling kids.Or just when they run really quickly.I want to hear that with the vision of Kathy being pulled away.
That for some reason the vision of that just like sent me.No that's good.I could not stop laughing.That's good shit.
And he goes and investigates the closet and he found that just beyond it was a hidden room that didn't appear on any of the plans or blueprints that he'd seen when he'd went to the Amityville Historical Society.I would be over the moon.
I'd be psyched.You have a hidden room.How fucking fun is that?I'm out here trying to convince John to add a hidden room onto our house.I think you should.Yeah, I want one.And it could be a speakeasy.It's my dream.That's my dream.
I should have a hidden room.Hello, I need more room for activities.That's one of my goals in life is to have a hidden room.Do it like behind your bookshelf.
right like you pull a book and a door opens and then it's just like a room i don't even know what that room is for they do that shit on like weird like home shows all the time i think you should do it i want to so we're going to convince john of that oh yeah i'll be over soon
So I'm like, so what was the like reason for all this?So like she got carried over to that closet.Was that like the demons or the ghosties just being like, guys, check it out.You have a cool hidden room back here.
Let me tell you, if I was a ghost living in that house, I'd be like, um, you haven't discovered this yet.Check this out.Do something.There's so much you could do with this. so much room for activities.
But do you do you carry the wife over there in the middle of the night?
Now I do.Now that I have that idea and I'm bringing it to the afterlife with me.Yeah because I mean you are gonna get somebody's attention that way.I mean it'd probably be like way more clunky than this experience sounds because I'm not like
i'm not like a power lifter yeah you know but maybe you will be yeah oh maybe i'll get that skill i i just feel like hop on piggyback on over to this hidden room yeah here we go i just want to show you something real quick yeah so that happened but throughout their ordeal the lutz's kept quiet about what was happening in the house they weren't telling people i wouldn't i'd be on the national news that's what i'm saying they didn't want the you know reputation of crazy people you know these weird people just moved into the neighborhood and now they're creating a hoax shenanigans got it
But to be honest, just letting you know, if you have weird shit happening in your house, and we live in the same neighborhood, and you want to tell me... Tell me everything.Tell me, because I'm not.You're going to be awesome to me.
Come and knock on our door.
We've been waiting for you.
So a few weeks after moving in they turned to the Amityville Historical Society in the hope that they could maybe provide them some information about the house or the lake because they know about the DeFeo thing obviously but they were like you know what did anything else happen here which I was also like
Do you need anything else?I don't know.Like I feel like that'll do it in my opinion.Yeah.So it took a few days, but eventually someone from the society got back to them.
And what they said was that apparently the house, it seemed, sat on land once used by the Shinnecock tribe. and it was used as, quote, an enclosure for the sick, mad and the dying.Oh.
The society member noted that while they may have used it as like kind of like a holding place area, the Shinnecox didn't use the area as a burial ground.
They didn't use that area as a burial ground because, quote, they believed it to be infested with demons.
Now this is something, this would give me pause.
Is there, do you know if that's been like backed up, if that's like the truth? We'll get there.Good question.
So further legends, because of course you're not just going to get this one thing.There's lots of chitchat about this land, about the house, there's all kinds of stuff.So further legends told of the Lutz's property once being home to John Ketchum.
who was a former member of Salem, Massachusetts, who'd been forced out of the state for practicing witchcraft.Well, shit.Ketchum relocated to Long Island and set up a residence allegedly just a few hundred feet from where the Lutzes now lived.
And supposedly, he continued practicing witchcraft and devil worship.Okay.So we all collectively can say, that's bullshit.Not real.Yeah. There is no, there's no nothing to say that this is the truth.
He did have to leave Salem, Massachusetts for a lot.There is like things about him going to Long Island.Uh, but what we do know is that he was not, um, doing devil worship and all that shit.
And, uh, there's also like, according to some of the accounts, John Ketchum was buried somewhere on the Northeast corner of the Lutz's property.There's nothing to indicate that at all.Okay.Uh,
The discovery of this information was obviously scary to the Lutzes, but it didn't really help them, nor didn't help them.It just kind of explained maybe everything that was going on, like maybe the land itself is evil, which would make more sense.
Yeah.So the Lutzes' terrifying ordeal finally came to a head. on January 13th, 1976.So this was not a long period of time.
Because remember, they moved in towards the end of December.By this point, the attacks were constant.
They ranged from disembodied voices to being pushed by unseen hands, to finally what we all know, according to them, seeing blood oozing from the walls.
hearing the sound of, and one of my favorites was they would hear the sounds of what they described as a full marching band in the living room.
Marching band.That's a good one.It's a good one.And after discussing the matter at length, George and Kathy decided it would be in everyone's best interest if they got the fuck out of the house, maybe just for a while, maybe for good.
I love that they were like, we're not sure.Yeah, they were like, you know what?So they made arrangements to stay with Kathy's mother in near Babylon, New York.So they were like, you know what?We'll stay with Kathy's mom, see what we can do.
Oh, so my portal theory is wrong because her mom's alive.Yeah, she is. So that morning, Kathy and George packed the kids and Harry into their van and prepared to leave.But George started to turn the key to the ignition and the van stalled.Oh no.
So he got out and opened the hood, hoping he could fix whatever was stopping them from leaving.And as he stood in front of the car, leaning under the hood, a big gust of wind forced the hood down and he barely managed to avoid being hit by it.
That's crazy.That's crazy.So just moments later thunder sounded in the near distance and the wind picked up to hurricane speed.Shut the fuck up, no it didn't.Which forced them out of the car and back into the house just as the power went out.
A wild series of events. So, despite the 20 degree temperature and rain and sleet battering the house, inside it was nearly 90 degrees and felt as though it was getting hotter by the second.
The storm ended a few hours later, but it was still, the power was off for the rest of the day. And at 6 p.m.the next day, George went down to check the boiler, which was off.
And when he came back upstairs, he saw what appeared to be a dark-colored blob working its way towards the living room and towards Kathy and the children.And I was like, don't worry, that's just my sleep paralysis demon.He's fine. He just hangs out.
Don't worry about it.But several hours later, it was clear that they wouldn't be able to leave the house until the next morning.
So Kathy and George put the kids to bed and yeah, but they put the kids to bed in their bed and they fell asleep on chairs in the bedroom.Okay.So they were all in the same bed.I get that.
Now, a short time later, the heat in the house broke dramatically and the temperature just started to plummet.
now somehow even with all that was going on inside and outside the house they all managed to fall asleep in that room no incorrect at 3 15 a.m same time he had woken up before george was woken up again by the sound of a full marching band in the living room downstairs what's like what do they think the marching band story is that's what i wonder because i'm like where are they from who does that go back to yeah
like a marching band yeah i don't know about that but this time the noise was accompanied by a bunch of unintelligible voices like they couldn't tell what they were talking about but just voices okay it was a whole it's like the victrola party at the smedeker house bitch i love a victrola party yeah victrola parties everywhere that's but this one's like worse i guess so
And honestly, for the first time, things got a little worse here because George could hear the band, or whatever it was, start to climb the stairs towards the bedroom.He said, parties in here.I said, oh no.
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Now the sound of the band signaled what would be the worst and ultimately final assault on the Lutz family in that house.Uh-oh.Because moments later lightning started flashing in the bedroom, the bed frame started shaking.Wait, wait.
You passed that like it was nothing.
lightning flashed inside the bedroom?
Well lightning didn't hit in the bedroom it like flashed in the bed like the bedrooms like outside of the bedroom lightnings flashing.
I thought you meant lightning was happening inside the room and I said you can't just graze past that.
You can't just walk past that.We gotta talk about that for a minute.I wouldn't have been shocked if they said that happened.We'll know me.By this point, everyone was awake, but George found that he couldn't move.
He was having sleep paralysis and could feel what he thought were hooves stepping all over him.Nay. Nay.
That's my only response.Nay, nay.
Nay.He said they were walking across his body to get to his family.
And soon the whole house was shaking like it was going to come down around them.I mean, that probably would be good.Honestly, see you later.So it took all the strength he had, but George finally managed to break his paralysis, getting himself up.
He grabbed his children and Kathy.They ran towards the door. But when they got to the landing, George heard Danny cry out that there was something in his room.And he told George, it's a monster.He doesn't have any face.
I'd say that's fine because we're leaving anyway.
I'd be like, that's cool.Leave him be.Now, when he looked up, George saw an enormous hooded figure dressed in white standing near the stairs.The thing pointed at them. And George knew this was it.He had to get his family out.This is the last second.
He had to get everyone out or they were going to die.What if he just wanted to have a dance off?
And he was just like, your turn, your family.Let's see what you got.Do you have a whole marching band behind you?I don't think so.I think he was trying to see what their step team was all about.
Yeah.He was trying to see if they had what it took to be America's next top dancer. Yeah, he was like, step up, Lutz family.I think that's what was happening.And you know what?
That's why no one ever had a problem with this house again because they were like winners and they just like left.They were like, all right, we're the winners.That's the thing.
So he ran his family down the stairs, managed to rip open the door, push the kids out, then Kathy, Harry, and himself.And once they were all in the van, he jammed the key in the ignition and the engine turned over.He was able to start the ignition.
So they just wanted to have one last party.
Yeah, they were like, stay another night.You didn't tell us you were leaving.So he flies out of there, tore down the driveway onto Ocean Avenue. Ocean Avenue where I used to sit and talk with you.I can't believe it's the first time we did that.
i know i can't that's really that's sad that's my first concert oh i loved that song yellow card forever so they were finally free of the house whatever had happened in there and they would never go back there again yeah i wouldn't either they wouldn't even go back there when they were investigating they refused to well it's for the plot i was gonna say it's for the plot like i wouldn't go back either so if that if all of that actually did happen to me yeah where we know it didn't just add to the story like and then we never stepped foot back in the scary house
So just a few weeks after fleeing their home, George and Kathy were at a party.
I took a sip of my drink at the worst time because you almost just got a straight up spit take.They were just at a party.I'm sorry and maybe this is just me.I don't even have kids yet.
If my kids were almost demonically possessed and like taken away from me by demons, I don't think I'd be hitting up a party like weeks later and leaving them with anyone.
I don't think my kids would ever let me leave them alone.And I wouldn't leave them.Like not alone.I mean like even with like a babysitter like they would my kids would just want to be with me 24-7.Yeah and and vice versa.
Because like I know me as a kid if that happened to me I'd be like you're never leaving my side mom and dad.Literally never.We're sleeping in the same room forever like The fuck are you celebrating?I mean, getting out of there, I guess.
Well, they were at a party in Amityville where they happened to meet William Weber, the lawyer of recently convicted killer Ronald DeFeo.Shut the fuck up.Now... Weber was a local so it is entirely possible that this was a purely coincidental meeting.
Yeah maybe.It's strange that they met but like it's it's not that strange because like they did all in the same community.And like we said it is a smaller community.Exactly.
So Weber had always maintained that DeFeo was mentally ill and he had been hearing command hallucinations in the weeks leading up to the murder of his family.
So when George and Kathy mentioned where they had been living and the cost for them leaving that house, he was so interested.Because remember, he's also in the middle of trying to get appeals for his clients.
So this was a delicious little nugget of information for him. With DeFeo's conviction less than two months behind them, Weber had already started planning the appeals.Of course.So he said, demonic infestation?What?Tell me everything.
Paranormal attack?Tell me it all.He said, have a seat. Exactly, so in mid-February, Weber actually organized a press conference for himself and the Lutzes.Shut up.
Yup, and during that press conference, he announced, based on certain facts relayed to us by George and Kathy Lutz and certain physical evidence brought to our attention, we are considering a motion for a new trial.
So Weber didn't provide any details there.He just strongly indicated that the very strong force that had driven the Lutzes out of the house could have been to blame for motivating DiFeo to kill.
That's fucked up.It's like, you're literally blaming a house for this guy just being a piece of shit.
Yeah, no, I don't like that.And I don't like that the Lutzes were like, yeah, let us help you do that.
Let's do this.Now, contrary to what they would later claim, George and Kathy Lutz minimized the extent of their supposed paranormal experience, denying having seen human shapes, flying objects, and hearing any wailing noises or, you know, whatever.
In fact, the most George would say was that they experienced psychic phenomenon that he could not describe that persuaded him and his family to suddenly move out because of concern for our personal safety as a family. Okay.
Now on advice from their new legal counsel, William Weber, neither George nor Kathy would elaborate on the details.So they very much downplayed it for the press at first.They made it vague to make people more interested.
Now the press conference gathered a lot of attention from the New York media and generated a lot of rumors about the Lutzes and their supposedly haunted house.
this kind of helped them.
Well, it's like when somebody puts up, like back in the day when people would put up a Facebook status like, in the worst mood, don't ask me why.
Yes.Then everybody asks why.Everyone's theorizing what it's about.Yes.
Now, it obviously was not very often around town that a seemingly reasonable couple was holding a press conference to announce they'd experienced psychic phenomenon to such an extent that they'd been forced out of their new home.
Wouldn't it be sick if that actually did happen more often?I know, I'd be so interested about that.Yeah, you could like hold town meetings and shit.
Yeah, now among those who took interest in their story was a local news channel, Channel 5, who wanted to do an investigative story on the house and the Lutzes' experience.
George agreed to allow the news channel to enter the house, but he said he and his family would not be joining the investigation.I bet.
A few weeks later, the news team arranged to film the investigation at the Lutz's house, and it was going to be led by a notorious husband and wife psychic investigative team.
I was going to guess Ned and Maureen.Oh, close.Yeah, our friends Ed and Lorraine had their fingers all up in here. This is one of the ones they're most well-known for, actually.
On the night of the investigation, the Warrens arrived at the house with a number of other individuals from their inner circle.That included a lot of psychics that would help with the seance.
As they moved from room to room, Lorraine used her, you know, abilities to try to sense the presence of any evil entities that dwelled in the house, which I was like, I don't really think we need Lorraine's abilities to see that.
I think we can look at history.
Yeah.Almost immediately, Lorraine stated that she felt the presence of a negative entity right from the bowels of the earth.Wow.And she said, this is the entity that was threatening you and likely convinced DeFeo to kill his family.
which I was like, Lorraine, shut the fuck up.Are you really sitting here trying to take away the fact that Ronald DeFeo Jr.is a piece of shit who murdered his entire family because he's a piece of shit?A piece of shit.
A piece of shit.That's the thing, it's just like, When they go to like the Snedeker house and they go to like these other houses, like sure, it's kind of fun, I get it, like spooky, you're just living your life, I love ghost hunting, I get it.
Absolutely.When it involves a murder, like directly.A mass family annihilation.Like multiple children died in their own homes while they were maybe sleeping. step away from that.Don't touch that.
And don't be sitting here trying to say that Ronald DeFeo Jr.only did it because this demon from this house convinced him to.Like don't take the responsibility off of him.
It's also just kind of stupid.I mean it's just stupid to claim that when the history is very clear of like they had a bad relationship.He and his family didn't have a great relationship.
And he was not completely in his right mind all the time.No, exactly.Like on the day of the murder he wasn't.Yeah, he had shown that he could be violent.
He had shown that he, you know, I mean he sounds like he had grown up in an environment that kind of helped with that violence.And it's like, we just, to take the, I just don't like the taking responsibility off of him here.
And doing it to kind of further your own fucking agenda, which is exactly what she was doing.
And that's why people think, that's why Ed and Lorraine have the black mark on them that they do, because this kind of shit, like you want to do fun ghosty ghosty shit, but sure, go right ahead. This kind of stuff just rubs me the wrong fucking way.
You just don't touch that.And it shows that they're scammers.It shows that they will go to the ends of the earth to push their own shit.
And it's like, what are you trying to do?Get this guy off for murder?That's the other problem.
is that this just happened, Lorraine.It's not like you're doing this now.Yeah, it's not like you're doing this now in like 2024 when the guy's dead and it's all over.Even that would annoy me because it would be taking responsibility off of him.
But you're doing it within the first year that he has been convicted and that it happened and that he is in the appeals process where they are using the idea that he was mentally ill or insane or that there was some unseen force in the house making him do it.
It's just not cool. No.So during one of the several seances conducted in the house that night, one of the psychics accompanying the Warrens claimed to, quote, feel personally threatened by a shadow being.
And the entire team concluded a demonic spirit possessed the house, and they recommended an exorcism.Of course.And did they contact the archdiocese?Of course they do.They always contact the archdiocese, except they don't.
So the couple also took a bunch of time-lapse photos at various points around the house.And in one of the photos taken at the base of the stairs, it is a creepy photo.It's a very famous photo.I don't even know if I've seen it.
There appears to be a child who can clearly be seen standing in the doorway leading to an adjacent room.I hate that.
The Warrens claimed that this was evidence of paranormal activity and claimed the photo captured the ghost of John DeFeo, who was the youngest one. whose spirit, they believe, was still trapped in the house.Oh, fuck.It's a scary photo.
That's horrifying.I think it's a hard one to figure out what happened there, like what kid that is.
That is probably one of the scariest pictures I've ever seen in my life.I can feel the hair on my legs just standing up.
yeah it's that one's definitely a scary one i'm like i hope i closed out of that because i don't want to like open my phone and have that be there i know right fuck that i do think though um that it has been debunked that photo it's very clear
I think it was um one of the Warren's team they figured out um I think it might have been like his name is like Paul something I think is what they think it was uh either way it's a pretty scary photo just as like I could see why people were fooled for a long time I probably would have been.
I just was.So see there you go that's I mean that's the That's the wild thing about the Warrens is they definitely, they're able to get you at first, and then you're like, oh, fuck you.
So while the Warrens have been most, like the biggest names associated with the Amityville haunting, and they are very much associated with it, like it's like hand in hand.It's like them and the Conjuring kind of thing.
They were merely one of several paranormal investigators who were attracted to the house by that press conference.Like they weren't the only ones. Their involvement in the case kind of ends when that investigation with Channel 5 ended.
Like, they didn't really stick around longer.They obviously discussed the incident and the story many, many more times in their career.Like, they didn't use it as, like, the pinpoint kind of, like, goalpost thing.
But they kind of, they peaced out after that Channel 5 investigation.Like, they got their fake photo and they were like, all right, bye.
that's interesting so the warrens investigation was followed by another investigation by hans holzer i've heard of which hans holzer i think when we were with mikey and dave watching uh haunting yeah that's that show which we had so much fun watching so much hilarious hans holzer was in a couple of the things and i said i think i believe everything this man has to say because his name is hans holzer and he just makes sense
He's a supposedly skeptical paranormal investigator who, unlike the Warrens, was guided by a more scientific method of inquiry, which I can appreciate.
Accompanied by nominally famous psychic Ethel Johnson Myers, I don't know if you've heard that name.I have.
Holzer suggested that the Lutz's house had been built on an ancient Shinnecock Indian burial ground, that's the quote, and was haunted by the angry spirit of Chief Rolling Thunder.
I feel like that borders on racism when they go the burial ground route.
Yeah.I think it's just that they don't have proof of that.There's also, they don't have proof of that at all.
And they also were told by the historical society that like allegedly that these, um, the indigenous people would not bury their dead on that ground because it was thought of as like cursed.
Yeah, so they were told that it wasn't and now this guy's saying it was.
Yeah, I take it back when I said I believe everything Hans has to say.
Yeah.So he also examined many of the photographs from the original DeFeo crime scene, including several photos of the bullet holes in the walls.And he said he saw mysterious halos appear around the bullets.OK.You're like, no, Hans.
From William Weber's perspective, the Lutz's story was one that was worthy of being told, of course.Oh, yeah.You know, he just wants to get it out, you know?No other reason at all.No.Which is really important.
Just, you know, he just was entertained by it.It has nothing to do with his ongoing court case.No, of course not.Why would you even think that, guys?
So in March 1976, less than a month after the press conference, he presented the Lutzes with a book contract with publisher Mars and Burton.Bullshit.
Under the terms of the contract, Weber, Mars, and Burton and George and Kathy Lutz would receive 12% shares of the profits. Well, Paul Hoffman, the book's proposed author, would receive 40%.
That percentage sucks.I would not do that for 12%.Yeah.So Kathy and George were like, well, you know what?He's been supportive of us, so let's just go with it.So they signed the contract and let's go.
Damn, you didn't even fucking negotiate a better percentage.No. Now, just a few weeks after signing the contract with William Weber, George and Kathy met Tam Mossman, who was an editor with Prentice Hall Publishing.
They told Mossman about the deal with Weber, and he was like, yeah, he might be offering you free legal advice, but he also offered you a really bad book deal.
I'm like, is somebody around?I'm like, yeah.
So since the contract technically hadn't been finalized, I guess they hadn't signed it.I should have said that they agreed to the contract and signed it.There was still time to back out of the deal.No John Hancocks.
Mossman suggested that they pursue their own author and sell the story on their terms.So a few days later, he introduced them to his friend, author Jay Anson, who I mentioned before.
It sounds like they just didn't realize how lucrative this could be and when they did they were like, fuck yeah.That's literally what happened.Yeah.
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So Jay Anson at the time was working on a documentary about the making of the 1973 horror film The Exorcist.Hey!
Unlike the deal with Weber, which, you know, gave a lot of individuals a lot of money for doing nothing, Anson suggested that he work with the Lutzes to tell their story for an even split of the profits. That's a much better book deal.
Much better deal.So days later, the Lutzes ended their contract with Weber, their proposed one, and eventually signed a new contract with Anson.
By then, however, Weber and Hoffman had signed contracts with Good Housekeeping and New York Sunday News for articles about the Lutzes' experience in the house, one appearing in July 1976, the other in July 1977.
As a result, the Lutzes ended up suing Weber and Hoffman in civil court for invasion of privacy, seeking $4.5 million in damages.
You're going to have to show me those damages.$4.5 million.You weren't even worth that before.Are the damages in the room with us?That's what the judge said.
The judge said, hello?Can you point to the damages?No.That's insane.Well, and Hoffman and Weber countersued, alleging breach of contract and fraud.So maybe they did sign, actually.And they requested $2 million in damages.
which they now probably could have accounted for.Exactly.So eventually, the court did dismiss George and Kathy Lutz's suit against Weber and Hoffman.But by then, Anson's book had been published and had quickly become very, very successful.
The book would actually go on to sell more than 10 million copies worldwide.Fucking A. And it spawned the hit adaptation and film, the 1979 Amityville Horror.You know, I've never seen it.It's wild.
And it had seven direct sequels, as well as dozens of unofficial films, which- Just ask Caleb.Our boy Caleb is currently just bushwhacking his way through right now.He's chest deep in Amityville sequels. He's always, and he's not happy about it.
He embarks on a journey that he didn't know all about. You know, Caleb is a completionist.He does not like to half-ass things.So once he starts something, he's going to finish it.He's a balls to the wall kind of guy.
So if you, yeah, he's really going for it.Uh, cause as soon, you can now use the Amityville name to like, it's now open to you.So that's why people use it to sell movies.Yeah.It's like, cause you can't copyright a town name or something like that.
Yeah.It's like, it's, you can just, you can use it.So it's like people use it. The publication of Anson's book and all the films were a financial boon for the Lutz family.Of course.
But with the success and attention came a little bit of scrutiny, I would say, that would eventually uncover some inconsistencies and cracks in the story.Mm-hmm.
So the cover of Jay Anson's book, The Amityville Horror, that's what it's like, his is the original, includes quite a bold subtitle, A True Story. So this is implying that this is a nonfiction book.
In fact, I mean, it was that claim that really was the success and the legacy of the books and films for Amityville.Of course.Creating a myth that even today, nearly 50 years later, a lot of people believe is a totally true story.
but it's also understood that when an author adapts a supposedly true story for a book or a movie there will be elements woven in for you know the sake of readability and continuity you know like fictional elements some artistic license.
That's why it always says like based on a true story.Exactly that's what it needs to say but there's just said a true story.
The problem with Anson's book, however, was that it included so many unbelievable and outrageous claims that it wasn't long before a lot of people wanted to see the evidence and support, you know, they were like, show me what makes this a completely true story because I don't know.
Now, The Amityville Horror was released in mid-September of 1977, and within a few months, journalists and skeptics around the world started flooding Anson's publisher, Prentice Hall Incorporated, with requests ranging from the whereabouts of the Lutzes, or Ralph Pecoraro, the Reverend, to the existence of evidence directly contradicting the claims made by the book.
They were like, we want it all.
In an article for Newsday published in November that year, investigative journalists took matters into their own hands when representatives from Prentice Hall refused to respond to requests for any of this or any questions.
Among the discoveries that were made were The local Catholic diocese, quote, denied that psychic incidents and conversations, including clerical officials cited in the book, ever took place.
The Catholic Church is like, leave us the fuck out of your hauntings.The Catholic Church is like, get the Warrens away from, get our, get our name out of your dirty mouths.
they're doing like they're putting the warrens in the freezer they're like we will engage in witchcraft stop we're gonna engage in the dark arts here just to get you to shut the fuck up about us i bind you warrens they also found out that neighbors and former and current residents of the house denied multiple key points of the story including the amityville historical society denying
that there was any evidence of the land having been used by the Shinnecock tribe, whose ancestral land was quite a bit further east.
Like, yikes, that you guys were like, let's throw some indigenous shit in there because that's spooky.Like, Whoa, you didn't think someone was gonna check up on that?
That makes you look like such a fucking douchebag.
And to use the Amityville Historical Society's name too, they're gonna be like, no.Like you don't think they're gonna come forward and be like, no fucker, that's our literal job.That's shitty to do.
Especially to like Indigenous communities.And what's funnier, because remember, they claimed that while they were in the house, they went to the Historical Society and joined them to find out what was going on.Or nor.
A representative from the Historical Society confirmed that the Lutzes did join the Historical Society, but not until January 25th, 1976, which was a few weeks after they fled the house.
and a few weeks after was when they met William Weber and started discussing all of this shit.So I'm sure there was discussion of why don't you join the Historical Society and find out some shit.Ew.
And then if you don't find out what you want, just lie about it.
Just make it up.That's fucked up.Yeah.Also, like I think you just said, you didn't think anyone was going to check up on that?That's the thing.Like, come on.That always happens with people who lie, though.You're like,
You didn't think anyone was going to look into that?
And that like the society that you literally mentioned by name isn't going to be like, no?Yeah, why wouldn't you just say like, according to unnamed sources?If you're going to lie, do it better.But you named a society.Yikes.Like, damn.
Now, at least two paranormal investigation groups declined to investigate the house at the Lutz's requests, quote, because of commercial promotion or lack of observable data.
So they were like, no, it was very clear that they wanted to make this a thing, so we wouldn't investigate, which I was like, good integrity on that.I love an integrity.I do too, I love an integrity.That's what I look for.
Now, the new owners of the home, Barbara and James Cromartie, I hope I said their name right, also spoke out, holding their own press conference to defend the reputation of their home and the memory of the DeFeo family.Nice.
Barbara told the group at the press conference, the house isn't haunted.It's beautiful and we love it.
The Cromerities were particularly critical of Anson's book and the Lutzes, telling reporters that their claims have drawn thousands of curious onlookers to drive by the house and even come onto the property.
That's really fucked up.Don't go onto somebody else's property.
No.And Barbara said it was ridiculous and tragic for the surviving members of the DeFeo family and for the town.Yeah.They were made into ghouls.Right.And it's true.
Now, Jay Anson, the author, defended the book in the assertion that it was a true story.He said, the way I approached the story, I left myself out of it.I did it as a reporter so that by the end of the book, you believe or you don't believe.
These are the facts.This is what happened to the family.This is what happened to the priests.
Now the problem with Anson and the Lutz's position there, that he just said, that readers could make up their own minds about what happened, that strongly suggests that he was not working with facts.
But instead he was working with subjective experiences that are notoriously difficult to prove or disprove.Which is why you cannot put a true story on the cover. If it was a true story, you say, this is truth.Yeah, I'm just reporting facts.
And I can back it all up.But instead, he's saying, you either believe it or you don't.Oof.Okay, I don't believe it.Okay, I don't.So there's that.
Now, in fact, as Newsday pointed out, quote, differences between the Lutz version of events and ascertainable facts crop up in the book from start to finish.
When Newsday reporters spoke to the Lutz's neighbors on Ocean Avenue, all of them denied noticing anything unusual happening in the house.
One neighbor said, if they did have problems, you'd think they would have come over and make some mention to the neighbors.
In fact, James Mullally, who purchased the Lutz's former home after they moved to Amityville, visited the family at the new house a few weeks after they had moved in, by which time the book claimed they were under very heavy supernatural attack at this point.
But James Mullally recalled that George and Kathy happily gave him a tour of their new house.At no time did they say anything.At no time did anything seem out of the ordinary.
And likewise, when the Cromerity family moved in a few months after the Lutzes fled, they found nothing out of the ordinary.
And there was no signs that the house had sustained any damage on the inside, which, remember, they're claiming that doors blew off hinges.It was crumbling around.Shit's going crazy.Yeah.
Well, it would have been impossible to verify the Lutz's story of their experience since, you know, you can't verify someone's personal experience.
There were a large number of people supposedly consulted during their stay in the house who could be and often were followed up with by reporters.
In one of the book's most notorious moments, George Lutz describes seeing his daughter's imaginary friend Jodi through a window.And when he went outside to investigate, he said he found a trail of hoof tracks left in the snow.
Now, according to George, he called the police and he said Sergeant Pat Camaroto was dispatched to the house.Sergeant Camaroto, on the other hand, told the reporter that story was, quote, absolutely false.
I was never on the property from the time of the DeFeo murder investigation until after the Lutzes left.
You can't lie about the police, they have logs.You can't, they have logs.Like a low?
Like you named some poor guy in this, like what the fuck?And an officer of the law?Of the law?You're kidding.
Look, also, the weather report indicated there was no snow on the ground when George claimed to have found the tracks in the snow, nor had there been any snow on the ground the week prior.George. George!Honey.
You gotta look at weather reports, my guy.
Oof.Almost happier that he didn't, though.Like, damn!Big old yikes.In another of the novel's most memorable moments, Reverend Pecoraro hears that disembodied voice tell him to get out while he's blessing the house.
In fact, Pecoraro's involvement in the story was one of the aspects that lent the story a lot of credibility.That he's a priest, he's coming and saying this is happening.
Yet, when he was called to testify in the Lutzes' suit against Weber, Pecoraro stated, quote, his only contact relating to this case was a telephone call from the Lutzes regarding their psychic experiences.What?
Now, contrary to their repeated claims and those made in the Amityville Horror, Reverend Pecoraro never went to bless the Lutzes' house. I feel duped.According to Pecoraro, he referred George Lutz to the local parish, St.
Martin of Tours, and suggested they speak with the priest there, but he said, but, quote, the Lutzes neither called nor ever attended mass.Well, yeah, because remember, they weren't fucking religious.
Oh, and the claim that the priest, this is the priest that helped them when they were getting married?Debunked.They were married July 4th, 1975.And during questioning, George answered later that they met the priest July 14th, 1975.
And Kathy said they met him July 30th, 1975 over the phone.Y'all don't even remember your fucking wedding date?And then he said, no, no, I've only had contact with them over the phone.
What?Yeah.Guys, what are we doing here?So they couldn't even get the date right.Do you think that, because like, I mean, they left the house, like, do you think they got in over their heads?
I know exactly what happened here and I'll tell you.Okay.So the most damning discovery I would say made during this time came from one of the book's original architects, William Weber. who told People magazine in 1979, I know this book is a hoax.
We created this story over many bottles of wine that George Lutz was drinking.We were creating something that the public wanted to hear.
Oh no.So I'd say that.He said we were creating something that the public wanted to hear and allegedly it could have helped my client.
Exactly.According to Weber, the Lutzes created the story in an effort to get out of deep financial trouble.
Because they bought a house that was like double their fucking price range.
Because the house was a bargain at $80,000 for what it was. But like you said, it was almost twice the average home price at the time and twice what the Lutzes could afford.
Ma always says, a sale is not a sale if you can't afford it.
Exactly.And their mortgage wasn't their only expense.They also owned a car, a motorcycle, and two boats. What the fuck do you need two boats for?I'm saying, the boats are fucking expensive.Yeah.
Along with the typical expenses that come from raising three children.
That's the other thing, you have three hooligans running around.
Yeah, three little hooligans.They're expensive.Super expensive. I would not pass two boats, I'm sorry.What?Hell no!In simplest terms, the Lutzes were living a lifestyle well beyond their means.
And it didn't take long to realize they couldn't fucking afford all of it. And that's why it's so strange that they decided to take this house on when they knew they couldn't afford that mortgage.
So I think they went into this knowing what they could do.I wonder, because once they found out it was the DeFeo house, I wonder if they said, well, we could turn this into something.I think they knew it was the DeFeo house.I don't know.
But like you said, they lived in New York.
Yeah, it's strange that they didn't know.
This was national news.It wasn't just like a little thing that happened in New York.
Yeah. Now, the book deal with Anson and the movie adaptation that followed were very lucrative, obviously, but the Lutzes didn't plan on things going badly between them and their original partners or the possibility that they were going to be sued.
That's why you don't fuck people over in contracts.
Exactly.Contracts shouldn't be fucked around with. So, in fact, it was Weber's frustration and animosity that led him to expose the story in the first place because they fucked him over.And he continued to do so in the years that followed.
And... I'm sorry.Isn't it just funny?Like, they fucked him over in a contract and he was like, okay. He said, hold my beer.He said, I'll bind my time and then I'm going to ruin your whole life.In 1988, in fact, so he's still going.
This was in 1970 something.He's in 1988 still.Hold a grudge.Hold a fucking grudge.It's like that lady on TikTok. Oh, I feel that deep in my bones.
Know that I will be that person who has a grudgery in the afterlife and I will take on other people's grudges for fun.I'm working the counter.I'm petty as fuck.I got, we got this.
Together we are building a grudgery.
I would be William Webber in this scenario.Me too.1988, a decade later, I'm still pissed.I'm still fucking you over.
I got something to say.He said, I'll burn it to the ground.Burn it all.
So in 1988, like years later, he appears on the show, A Current Affair, where he elaborates.He said, we took the real life incidents and transposed them.In other words, it was a hoax.
He's still, I love it, 1980, he's like, did I say it loud enough for the people in the back?It wasn't real.It was a hoax.
So the Amityville hoax would be the subject of many court cases in the decades since its publication, most having to do with money, but none as surprising as Ronald DeFeo's 1992 attempt to use the claims as the basis for a petition for a new trial, which is the shitty part of what came out of this.
I can't.Luckily it didn't work because by that time DeFeo had served 15 years of his life sentence, but he believed the exposure of the Amityville hoax entitled him to a new criminal trial.He said, William Weber gave me no choice.
He told me I had to do this.He told me there would be a lot of money from book rights and a movie.He would have me out in a couple years and I would come into all that money.The whole thing was a con, except for the crime. I mean, yeah.
We laugh about William Weber being petty as fuck about the Lutzes, but he was really shitty when it came to the DeFeo case, because he was trying to get him out on that.Yeah, which is not cool. which fuck that.
So the legacy of the Lutzes and the Amityville Horror, and like I said in the first episode with the DeFeos, it didn't work.He didn't get his new shit.
But the legacy of the Lutzes and the Amityville Horror has persisted for nearly 50 years and it has led to countless debates about fact, fiction, what is real, what isn't.
What tends to get lost in all of that though is the story about Amityville, the town itself. Like, it's kind of taken on a life of its own, the myth of Amityville.And it, like we said, it's a seaside town.It's a small place.It's a nice place.
And it's really disrupted life for the residents there.Because people can't tell fact or fiction, too. Absolutely.
While Anson, the Lutzes, and Ed and Lorraine Warren made millions from their supposedly quote-unquote true story, people like Barbara and James Cromerity, who owned the house and the residents of Amityville, had to contend with thousands of people and paranormal enthusiasts descending on their town every year.
Yeah, that's annoying.It's kind of like Salem during Halloween.I was just going to say, yeah.People forget that people live there. and that that's their home.
And it's, I think it would be one thing if people, you know, just like went past by, like that would be something.But people act a fool around like Halloween and they act a fool around paranormal stuff.
It's like, go if you want to go and be respectful like to Salem, obviously.But like leave people's personal properties alone.
Yeah, that's the thing.Like you just got to be, you got to be cool about it, man.
You want to drive past the house, I get that.I probably want to drive past it too.
Don't be all like uncool.
Drive by, look at it, move on.
Yeah, but don't be weird.Don't disrupt people's lives.You know, it's not cool.I don't know when this episode comes out because I never know where we are in space and time.Sometime in October.
It's in October, so if you're going to Salem this month or any time really, because remember people live there, but especially during the Halloween months when it's really crazy there, that's cool.People don't mind.
I don't live there, but people don't mind. just be respectful to people who live there.
It's a really cool place, it's a really historical place, it's got a lot of heavy history, and people live there year-round and have their kids there, they have families there, so just be cool, that's all.Just don't act a fool.Don't be all uncool.
Don't be all uncool, as Luanne says.The Countess.Because you wanna be able to go there every year, and if it continues the way it has been, they're gonna be like, fuck y'all.Yeah, they're gonna shut that shit down.I wouldn't blame them.
I wouldn't either. So last summer, apparently, and this was in 1977, Barbara told reporters, Barbara Careri, the owner of the house, said last summer 5,000 people trumped through here.
They left trash everywhere and even had picnics on the neighbor's lawns, which if you're that kind of person, fuck you.Like you got to get it together.
What are you doing having a picnic on someone's fucking lawn?
Also, if you're one of those kind of people, which you're not if you're listening to the show, because none of our listeners are stupid.No, you're all great.
But if you know someone that's like that, you got to tell them to go to BJ's and get themselves the family pack of fucking shame.
because you have no – I didn't know what you were going to tell these people to buy.
You have no shame.If you are – and you need some.Like you need a healthy amount of human shame.Buy shame in bulk.Where you don't sit on someone's lawn and have a picnic.
Like that – you should – when you don't have shame to that degree, you're bordering on not being a human.And you need to go fix that.
If you can't call your mom or like somebody you love and tell them what you did that day, don't do that.Yeah.Don't do that thing.Good call.
Now, despite all the claims of supernatural assaults and documentation of hoaxes and an endless parade of tourists, the house at 112 Ocean Avenue still stands.And it's as marketable as ever.
Some of the subsequent owners went as far as to renovate, removing the, you know, they finally removed the home's iconic Dutch windows to make it less recognizable to tourists.Because they did.They became the iconic windows.They looked like eyes.
Yeah, and other owners embrace the history and celebrated its place in horror history.Like, you know, you never know who you're going to get living there.It's kind of like the house on Elm Street, the house from Nightmare on Elm Street.
That house has had several owners over the years.The newest owner, does not embrace its place in our history.Please fuck off.
Which that's a place, there's a difference between a mass murder happening in a place, a real mass murder, and a real hoax happening in one place.I feel like that's a place where It's just they got a different vibe.
But if you're buying the Elm Street house, you know what you're buying.You're buying the house from Nightmare on Elm Street.Come on.Come on.You gotta know.You gotta know.But I won't get into that.
If people are just driving by, cool.People taking like a quick pic, I get it.
People on your lawn, kick them off.No, nobody should be going on your property.That's not, no matter what you're doing.
But if they're near your property, like come on.
But you got to embrace that one a little bit.Not on property, I'm saying.Off property.But that's the thing.With all these kind of houses and places, you're going to get people who embrace the kookiness and the wildness and the horror stuff.
You're going to get some people who aren't as comfortable with it.And you need to respect regardless.People's boundaries are important.Yeah.
Now, in January 2023, the former Tofeo murder house sold for $1.5 million, which was a 1,775% increase from what George and Kathy Lutz paid in 1977.
Pretty good increase.I don't know how the newest owners feel about it, so I think the safest thing is to assume they do not like the attention of that house and to leave them be and let them live.
I like that. I like that.
But everybody so far who has lived in that house has claimed that that house is not haunted in the way that it has been portrayed.
And it's been 50 years, so like 50 plus years.
I think we're going on 60. Maybe people have experienced little things here and there I wouldn't be shocked by any means but they have not you know heard marching bands and been carried off into closets and such.
I want to know whose idea it was to add the marching band because that's just.That's that's that's overzealous.It is and the big figure pointing that's my favorite visual that I created for myself.Yeah just.
I just picture him like pointing and then when they didn't like start dancing like he just gets on the ground and starts doing like a coffee grinder move.
Yeah he's like oh okay it's my turn then.
Okay let me show you how it's done.
Fine.This is how we do it on the other side.
He's like all right it's gonna cost you in judging but let's go.
oh man so that is the story of the amityville hoax what a tale what a tale it's when you really look at it like overarching view it is really shitty what they did it's very shitty it's like super shitty and they did it for their own personal gain which is very shitty yeah and when you think about like um i forget who said it but somebody was like they're still like defeo family members and you turned them into ghouls like
That's fucked up.They banked off of the DeFeo tragedy, which is a horrific tragedy.I mean, we covered it in the first episode, how bad that was.That was a horrific, horrific family annihilation.And it still has unanswered pieces of that.
Like, there's so much mystery surrounding that in and of itself.They banked on that.And they also banked on a fictional burial ground scenario.Yeah, which is so fucked up.I hate that.
Yeah.And it's like, I don't.And then they threw, like, John Ketchum into there.
yeah they they really just ran in so many different directions like damn you just dipped your fingers in the Salem witch trials too like you really grabbed it's like the trifecta of fucked up for real are you indigenous burial ground uh-huh actual family annihilation and the Salem witch trials you just grabbed all three and threw them in the story just tragedies everywhere yeah
oof so yeah that's wild it is a wild tale but it's spooky season so we got more fucking crazy ass tales coming your way we do and i hope you're enjoying them and being horrified by them yeah i have like a murder mansion next i think there's a poltergeist coming down the pike oh yeah we got it all yeah and then guys hang real tight because following all of this the next couple episodes you're getting jerry brudos
Oh no.So that one's gonna take us right back into the depths of hell.It's just gonna make you feel real weird about putting your shoes on in the morning.It sure will.I hate it.Look him up everybody if you don't know who he is and anticipate that.
Yeah we also have some special guests that are gonna be upcoming.We're really excited about that.We have a lot of cool stuff coming down the pike.We do.I'm excited.And before our spooky season commences,
we're doing something a little extra fun for the listener tale yes but stay tuned for that because we we got some stuff in the works because that one falls on halloween right it falls yeah that one falls on halloween yes so who knows who knows you might see what we have up our sleeve who knows oh i'm so excited i'm very excited i can't wait
So yeah, with all that being said, we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird.
But not so weird that you take an entire family's tragedy and so many other tragedies throughout history and turn them into a book for your own personal gain.I just think that's a little bit shitty. Yeah, it's not cool.Yeah, just don't lie.
Like, if you experience something haunted, go off.Go crazy.That's exciting.But if you're gonna lie about it, you're just a fucking squid.It's true.No one likes a squid.No.
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In the upcoming episode of Killer Psyche, we will be diving deep into the unfolding case of accused Gilgo Beach serial killer Rex Huerman.Huerman is awaiting trial for the murder of three women, with many more victims still being linked to him.
Now, a recently released tell-all bail application goes into unusual details and links to keep him locked away, revealing shocking updates about the case.
Listen as we take a closer look into the newly revealed evidence and charges, bringing new insight into what we already know about the case and what may have motivated him.Follow Killer Psyche on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.
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