Hello and welcome to the AnxietyRx podcast, a show created by an anxiety specialist and neuroscientist, me, that offers unique, practical, and actionable advice to help you understand what anxiety truly is and exactly what you can do to empower yourself to resolve it.
I'm your host, Dr. Russell Kennedy, an MD who suffered with crippling anxiety for 30 plus years, and traditional therapy from psychiatrists and psychologists really didn't help me feel better.And I also didn't like being on psych meds.
In 2013, after burning out and leaving medical practice, I came to the conclusion that if I was ever going to heal my anxiety, I would have to do it myself.And that's exactly what I did.
Drawing from experiences with psychedelics and holistic healing and combining those modalities with my scientific academic background in medicine, neuroscience, and developmental psychology.
Here on the Anxiety Arcs podcast, I offer a distinctly non-traditional and non-medical approach to understanding and healing anxiety.
So despite the fact I'm trained as a physician, in no way is what I say and suggest to be construed as medical advice because none of the ways I use to resolve anxiety has anything to do with traditional allopathic medicine.
From my own healing, I've created a distinctly non-traditional understanding and approach that helps thousands of people from all over the world understand and relieve their chronic anxiety.So if you're ready, let's get into today's episode.
Welcome to the AnxietyRx podcast.I'm your host, Dr. Russell Kennedy, as you might know already.I'm an MD who suffered with critical, horrible anxiety for so long in my life.And I finally found a way to heal it and then share it with someone else.
So I created a book called the AnxietyRx book and the AnxietyRx podcast, and I'm having trouble speaking today so far, but I'm sure I'll get it out.Today I have with me Catherine from Calgary, fellow Canadian, eh?How's it going?How's it going, eh?
Good, very good.Bright and sunny here.
So yeah, well, and I'm in Victoria.So we're just slowly starting to go into that winter that you and I were talking about before, you know, cause you lived on the island for a while.So it gets pretty gray here from November to March.
And, and I think it can really affect people's mental health too.So I wanted to ask you, Catherine, so, so what's your kind of anxiety story?Like how did it affect you?
Yeah, my story, I guess I know I was born really nervous and shy and kind of quiet and sensitive and all of that.And we had like a really good upbringing, solid background, like with my parents happy.
I don't remember any abuse or getting in trouble or anything like that.We did tons of camping all over BC and Alaska, even drove down to the States. Everything was really good and just being shy and timid.Mom put me into a lot of events.
She got me in piano and ballet and swimming and all that because she knew myself and my sister were really, really timid.So, I mean, really good upbringing.
I've done therapy to see if there was, I did EMDR to see if there was anything to pull out of that time and there just really wasn't anything.Then lo and behold, when I was 12, my dad got sick and he was sick for over a year.
and they didn't know what was wrong with him.And eventually it turned out it was cancer.So he got diagnosed with cancer in November of 1985.And then he died in March of 1986.
So really fast, a long time ago.And yeah, and you know, and we, we carried on just solid, You know, mom was really good and she held everything together and she was, you know, everyone's friend.All my friends liked her.I had a great high school year.
My sister, she did well with her school.I dove into piano music and finished my diploma really at a young age.And yeah, it seems, seems fine.Great high school year and everything.
And then it just started creeping in, the anxiety started creeping in when I started having performance anxiety with, you know, so many piano exams and recitals and competitions and stuff.And then, okay, so I didn't want much to that.
And then it just sort of really creeped in even more in my early twenties when I started teaching piano.I just started getting it really bad in the day.But then I guess I had it prior to that because we, we laugh about it, but
Every single morning when I was in grade seven, I vomited every single morning before I went to school.
That's a clue.Yeah, sure.
And now I realize that was like we didn't know that that was anxiety because we didn't label things.So back in the day, right, there were no terms for it.
So, yeah, they creeped in in my 20s and just got really bad and progressively worse and worse and worse.So, yeah.
I'm curious, did you guys do much repair for your father's death?Did you talk about it much?I guess you have one sister, is that the idea?
So did you talk about it much?Because that's what I find so much with children.It's not so much the trauma, although death of a father is a massive trauma, but it's just the repair.
If there's repair there, it tends to ameliorate some of the symptoms.But if you just sort of go on and it's not really addressed, that alarm stays in your body.
Yeah, definitely.There is that for sure.Yeah.No, not a lot of repair.I mean, little bits and pieces here and there, but.
And back then too, it wasn't, you know, it wasn't as, as, as forefront it is now, you know, that we need to, you know, process these traumas in order that the kids don't.So, you know, back then it was kind of like, you know, stiff upper lip, move on.
That's too bad.Kind of keep going kind of thing, which it sounds like your family did.
And we were very strong and we, we had support from other uncles and family member too, which was really good.And cousins that took us to expo 86 and, you know, that summer, you know, so it was, no, we had support that way too.
It's just, I think it's the times, like you say, like therapy wasn't really out there and mom was solid.So I didn't, you know, she was there, she stayed at home.
She kept the finances together, she kept everything together and she had a lot of her own stress too. through her parents and her family.And now that I'm older, I found out, you know, she had major anxiety.
As often happens, you know, I have so many people that contact me and say, Can you, can you talk to my 12 year old son or my 13 year old daughter or whatever, she's really anxious.
And it's like, well, first, I'm going to talk to you, because that's probably where it's coming from, right?Like the kids, our kids are so sensitive, you know, even my own granddaughter, Avielle, and my daughter, Leandra,
You know, Avielle's very, very sensitive.She has another little boy, Angus, who's not quite as sensitive, but still, but Avielle's very sensitive.
So when Leandra goes through a bit of an anxious patch, Avielle goes through a bit of an anxious patch, too, because the kids are just, they're such sponges, you know?
So you must have been reading your mother, I'm sure, you know, because you have that affect, like you have that empathic kind of nature to you.So I'm sure you were kind of reading the energy.Are you the oldest?
No, I'm the youngest.There's only 18 months between the two of us.
Okay.So that's, that's like my brother and I were very, very close in age.We're only 16 months apart and that kind of stuff.But Scott's much more resilient than I am.He wasn't born as sensitive as I am. my brother.
And so I think that had definitely something to do with it.
So I was just writing a post for Instagram today about, you know, if you grow up in a sort of a traumatic environment, when you're born sensitive, it's just, you know, you're destined to have some kind of anxiety, depression, eating disorder, OCD, all this kind of stuff.
And just the repair, how the repair is so important.And especially for kids now, like, and we're just not getting that same kind of connection with our kids anymore.
You know, their screens, they're not really as connected as we were when we were younger.And even though back in the day, there wasn't a whole lot of focus on like therapy and repair and that kind of stuff.
But there was this innate sense of connection that we all had back then. You know, and now I think the kids, you know, there's more, there's more academic stuff out there.
Like, okay, anti-bullying, like today, September 30th, like we're really talking about the Indigenous communities and, and that kind of thing.
There's a lot more awareness out there, but it's just, it's just that feeling thing that just that, that connection, that feeling of connection.And then I look at the States, you know, and all the division down there and stuff and,
And my mentor in developmental psychology, Gordon Neufeld, used to say that, or still does, that all anxiety is separation anxiety.And then I add on there, and it's mostly separation from yourself.
So how did you kind of, you know, what did you do to treat yourself early on?Because we all try and treat ourselves early on.
Yeah, psychiatry. Yeah, it was okay.I get to a point and then it'd be time to move on.And then I made some major changes in my life.I had a major, major change where I moved from BC to Alberta.That would be a big change.That is a big change.
It was a bit of a culture shock, especially winter.And I got to my first winter and yeah, just throughout the years kind of kept changing a lot and had some pretty good careers in that.
been doing pretty fine, but then just a general sense since my early 30s, I guess, just a general anxiety, waking up with it daily, generalized anxiety disorder, you know, I guess it was associated depression and for over 20 years.
And it's spiked lately because I've been going back to teaching piano.So there is some sort of trigger with the music and the memories of Maple Ridge.So it doesn't make any sense, but I guess as you say, it doesn't.
Well, it doesn't.Yeah.I mean, in our brains, you know, we have the amygdala, of course, and everybody knows about the amygdala.
There's also a part of our brain called the insula, which is kind of like the way station between body to mind and mind to body.And there is this theory that we create these emotional signatures of trauma and they're coupled to certain things.
So for you, it might be coupled to music.So at the time that you went through all this stuff, music was, you know, kind of forefront in your life.So we kind of mesh these things together.So we make these associations.
It's like people that go on the bus and have a panic attack.And then they say, well, it must be the bus.So I'm never going on buses again.So we couple these things and it's the same thing.Like, where were you on 9-11?
You know, we remember these things because whenever there's an emotional upheaval in our lives, we get into this sort of super memory thing.We lock in, like everyone knows where they were at 9-11.
So it is one of those things that we couple these things.And then when we come back into them, like as you come back into music, it will bring back that bodily sensation.Because so much of what trauma is and what anxiety is, is this bodily sensation.
We think it's the thoughts of our mind. because that's the most forefront.That's the easiest dependent on, Oh, I worried about my taxes.So that's why I'm anxious.
It's like, no, your body was anxious before and your mind started looking for something and your taxes were like the most forefront, you know?
So we get this confirmation bias and we just, and we all have our frequent flyers, you know, some people have health anxiety, some people, social anxiety, that kind of, so we all have our frequent flyers.
And for you, it sounds like, you know, kind of teaching piano.
Yeah, it is.And it's, it's odd, because it doesn't make sense.Well, it doesn't, I guess it does make sense, because it triggers everything.And, and my amygdala gets fired up.And every day, it turns out fine.So yeah, you know,
But if you're emotionally sensitive, which you clearly are, and you're a musician as well, you know, those things, there's a reason why musicians typically are more, quote unquote, volatile emotionally than the general population, right?
Because I think that we do feel things. in a different way.We're more sort of, I hate to use lateralization so much, but we're more right brain, we're more feeling based.
And our thoughts are there, but they don't soothe us that much because we start treating the thoughts as kind of an emotional signature of pain that we get used to thinking negatively, is basically what I'm saying.
And in a way, you know, if you look at the way the brain is structured, when you make the uncertain a little more certain, which is what we do with worry, when you worry about something, you make it appear more certain, you get a little hit of dopamine in your brain.
So you get kind of, oh, I'm on the right track because we don't do anything unless there's a reward.So we actually get rewarded for worrying and we get addicted to worry.
And that's, you know, one of the things that I have a really hard time with helping people heal from anxiety is when they first start releasing that need to worry.
You know, I had a patient say to me, you know, Dr. Kennedy, I feel worried when I'm not worrying, right?There is that sense that, okay, I should be hypervigilant.I should be worrying.
I should be keeping this in the foreground so that I can protect myself from it.But Brene Brown talks about that too.
Like no matter how many times you practice this stuff, it really doesn't make much difference when it actually, if it actually happens and it rarely happens.So what kind of things have helped you?
Oh, well, definitely the MBRX, like with the Yoga Nidra, like the other girls were talking about too, like it's unbelievable.And the resistance one, the resistance meditation.Yeah, those two are just amazing.
Finding my alarm, don't really have a problem with that.It's pretty right front and center.
Where do you find your alarm?
It's usually right here.And then sometimes goes, lately it's been going down to my solar plexus, but I guess that's your chest area, right?
Yeah, yeah.I like hearing the fact that it's changing because when people tell me that their alarm is changing either in intensity or place or character or whatever, it's a sign that things are starting to move in there.
Because our alarm tends to lock us in the same position.And that's what I was talking about, the insula and the emotional signature of alarm.We usually feel it the same way every time.And because we are so used to going into our thoughts,
we pull ourselves away from this awareness of where this is in our body.
And every time we feel this, even if we're not aware of it, we automatically skip up into our thoughts to try and, you know, the worry gives us a bit of dopamine and it distracts us from this pain.
Because I always say that anxiety is basically a separation of your adult self from your child self. and from your mind, from your body.So if we can pull those together, and then the resistance that you mentioned is so much of our pain is resisting.
And I heard someone say a long time ago, it's like when you resist something, you hold onto it tighter.And it's like, no, you're trying to actually let it pass through you.And when you resist it, you can't let it pass through you.
So hard.So hard to do that.I was doing that this morning and it actually worked and then I just lied there totally calm.
And then my brain wanted to scramble on hold on to something, you know, and that's it, you know, saying, you know, just not not attaching a thought to it, to any of that stuff is so important.
And yeah, it's probably the biggest piece gather.I keep interrupting.But it's probably the biggest piece is that is learning that okay, this is this alarm feeling in my body.I don't like it.It's uncomfortable.
But if I can learn that I actually have power, not to go up into and as as Danielle was saying, she starves the future world. Yeah, so did I. I thought I wrote it down and I've used it since then.So you're kind of starving the worries.
But the thing is, when you start starving the worries, because the worries have been such a, you know, kind of a foundation for us since we were children, we feel uncomfortable leaving something that gave us the illusion of safety.
So that's why it's so hard when you start, when I, when my people start feeling better, it's like there's a crescendo in anxiety because the ego is just trying to pull you back into this place where it perceives that you were safer.
Worrying all the time when clearly we know that's not the case, but when you're a child and worry is your only sort of distraction and safety, it's going to, it's going to take a while before that sort of fades away.
And that's why I did the yoga Nidra and the resistance meditations and stuff.So we get into that unconscious place.
Yeah, absolutely.Yeah.And I think I'm at that crescendo towards the end because it's fierce right now.Oh, yeah, there's a lot of stuff going on, but there's always a lot of stuff going on in your life, right?So it never goes away.
But the connection and the other thing too, like I was just blown away with your work and seeing that trauma is, you know, kind of the root of being a sensitive child and trauma in your childhood to anxiety.
It just blew me away because, I mean, before I started reading all this stuff before, I just assumed it was inherited, genetic, and not being negative, but just something that I had to learn to live with because, you know, my grandparents
you know, family have suffered from it for generations.So I didn't even know until like I saw, read some Gabor Mate and then I saw like you popped up in the feed and I'm like, Oh my God, is this related to my dad dying?
Like my friends, of course it is, but like, doesn't, you know, didn't make sense at the time, but now like, yeah, I never thought of it that way prior to two years ago, you know, and I've done CBT and I did do EMDR.I really did like EMDR.
It did help desensitize me.I can actually talk about what happened now without getting too upset.So that's a good thing.
Yeah, I mean, I think EMDR and most of the studies do show that EMDR is most effective when there's like a single event, like a death of a parent or something like that.
Whereas if you are, say you have an alcoholic parent or an abusive parent, whatever, and it's chronic, EMDR doesn't seem to be as effective for those chronic things, but it does seem to be quite effective for those sort of punctate, those immediate
sort of events that happen in your life.It does seem to help with that.But if it's a chronic thing, EMDR is less effective.
I don't want to piss off all the EMDR people out there, but that seems to be the kind of a through line that I've seen a lot is that is that if it's a specific event, EMDR seems to be quite helpful.
If it's a chronic event, like so many of us with anxiety had chronic events, it's not as effective for sure.But what I'm excited about is that you have the new book, which is great.I mean- Yeah, I have it.
I've been listening to it.I'm on chapter, I don't know, I've got a couple hours left, so yeah.Okay, so you're up on- The Present Body Moment, chapter 97.
Oh, you're way up there.So what do you think of it compared to the first book?
Oh, really good.Like really clean, really easy to understand.Not that the other one wasn't, but it's clear, it's concise, it's clean.It gives you practical steps and it's not clouded.Like you can just, I don't know.
And it's kind of not in layman's terms, but it's, you can understand it, but yet there's the science backing to it too, which I always made me feel better too, that there is science to this.You know, I was searching for,
something but sure you know that always makes the person feel better too but no just easy to follow and understand and all the steps and the ABCs and breaking it down yeah
Yeah, like the first book I kind of wrote out of my head, right?So I have a lot of my personal stories in there.And then since I wrote the first book, I've been on like 250 podcasts and I've been writing a lot.
So I've been able to really refine the message.Like the theory is exactly the same, but the message I think is just stronger.And then I put the anxiety toolkit in the front, which is the sort of the seven or eight things that I found in my, you know,
career of treating people with anxiety, the stuff that worked the best, that had the most effect.Because I wanted to give some people some tools because when we do go through the book, we do kind of go into stuff that wasn't kind in your past.
When you start looking at the things and you start really saying, oh, this is really what the root cause of it was. And sometimes I'll have people that say, you know, my parents were amazing.They're still together and that kind of thing.
And I said, well, ask your parents if you had a separation from them, you know, and so often they'll come back and say, oh, I was in an incubator for the first two weeks, or my parents took my older brother on a vacation and left me behind, you know, with the grandparents, you know, and for a sensitive child, like that's all it takes sometimes to just, you know, I'm talking about your nervous system and how it sort of
gets honed into protection rather than growth.And so often that's what happens to us with anxiety.And a lot of us with anxiety go into this sort of counterphobic mode where we just attack whatever was bothering us.
But it doesn't really help us heal because we're constantly sticking a knife in that wound and we're not actually giving ourselves the repair that we need at the time.
So one of the things that I would do with you is I would sort of take you back to that, you know, was it 12?You were 12 when your dad passed away?
13, I diagnosed when I was 12.
So, you know, I would take you back to that, you know, 12, 13 year old girl and just have a conversation with her, find where she is in your body, which is probably the alarm that's in your chest, you know, put your hand over it, connect with her.
And, you know, you don't have to stay in it for very long, but it's just showing that younger version of yourself that you're okay now.
Because there is this theory that when we get traumatized as children, part of us stays locked in that particular age for the rest of our lives.And I think this part of the insular cortex and the amygdala, there is neuroscience behind this.
And what you were saying earlier is it does make people feel better to know that there's a science-based explanation for this.And they're not a freak.Because I thought, you know, this is the way I am forever.I'm never going to get any better.
This is just the way my life's going to be.This is a life sentence.
And you say your brain will support that if that's what you think.
Yeah, it'll fight.And the other thing I find with anxious people is they're usually quite smart and usually quite talented.
Because if you go into the brain gym of rumination since you've been like 5, 6, 10, 12 years old, you're going to get pretty good at thinking. Right.To the point where you get so good at thinking that you kind of leave feeling behind.
And then when you leave feeling behind, it'll find a way of bubbling up to the surface.It's like whack-a-mole, like it's going to come up.And often that's what will happen.
And usually it's kind of, you know, thirties, forties, that's when things happen.You get into your first divorce, all this kind of stuff, because all the childhood stuff starts coming up.Right.And I just see that so, so commonly.
I'm curious, what grade of piano did you get to?
The whole thing?Yeah.Yeah.That's a challenge.
Yeah.That's it.That's a big deal.
It's on the wall behind me.Nice.I only framed it this year, though.I finished it 30 years ago, but I framed it this year.It was all wrinkled and crumpled up.
So what has helped from MBRX, you were saying, like what has kind of
Well, the, I mean, listening to your podcast regularly just is soothing.I don't know why, but it just is calming and just your different guests and that.And then I, like I say, the Yoga Nidra, the resistance yoga, the ABCs, all of that.
I mean, paired with what else has helped me the last couple of years too, is I've been going to the gym, which I haven't done before either.So I, not like I love it, but I do it. And you can feel your brain shift like halfway through the workout.
You can feel it.I can feel it going down another track.Like talk about that, like the, the tracks and the snow and whatnot, like you can feel it changing.I don't know.And I, my chest is deeply buried, so.
Yeah, I was listening to Dr. Kelly McGonigal the other day and she was talking about how the muscles, the contraction of the muscles actually release some sort of chemical.They don't know exactly what it is, but it just promotes well-being.
So this was the first kind of inclination that just contracting your muscles just on a regular basis provides you with this sort of healthy humor, I guess, in the body.You know, the old term of humor being fluid-based.
that creates this sort of well-being sense in us.So it's more than just exercise.There is something actually physiological and maybe neurohormonal or neurochemical that actually, from contraction of your muscles, that helps you just feel
more grounded.And I think it gets us more into our body because like I said, anxiety is a separation of your mind from your body.
So if you can create this sort of connection with your body, you're starting to sort of build that sort of wholeness that wasn't there before. Because we get very good.We anxious people.I mean, for 40, 50 years, I was great at living in my head.
I mean, I could write books, I could finish medical school, I could do all this sort of stuff.But the feeling part is where life really is.And I found that my life has gone by so quickly because I've been in my head most of the time.
And that's probably one of the things that I'm most sort of, you know, kind of sad about is that I wish I had discovered this stuff.
Like I always say, I wish I had, I'd found me when I was in my twenties, you know, like I, I wish I knew this sort of alarm in the body theory when I was younger and started connecting with my body when I was younger, as opposed to just trying to fix it with my mind.
Because it does give you the illusion, like CBT does give you the illusion that you're feeling better.
But like we were talking about before we started kind of taping today, is that, you know, CBT is a very cognitive, I mean, it's in the name, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy.
It's very cognitive, and the part of your brain that's cognitive, prefrontal cortex and somatosensory cortex and all that kind of stuff, doesn't really respond to the feeling state that we need to get us out of it.
So if CBT is held in this sort of cognitive framework in our brain, and then when we get into survival physiology, we shut off the cognitive framework in favor of the emotional framework, it's going to leave us when we need it the most.
So it's going to help you feel better.But I spent thousands of dollars on CBT and it did help me for the short term, but a year later, it was all gone.
Yeah, I can see it coming in at times when you need it, it would work, but when you're in that state, you just, you can't, no, you can't go there at all.
And I think that's it.It's just being able to, you know, you have to practice it, like anything, like even the ABCs and the yoga nidras and the meditation, you do have to practice them.But what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to
create the conscious structure to change the unconscious, these programs that have been sitting in you for, you know, since you were a child.Yeah.So that's why the book is repetitive.And it's like one of the criticisms of the book online.
It's like, well, the book's repetitive.Like, of course, I wrote it that way, because I can change your, I can change your cognitive mind like that. But I can't, I have to change these unconscious structures.And we do that by repetition.
So I tell different stories and I create, I come at it in like 40 different ways to kind of, but at the end of the book, my hope is that the book is kind of an experience.
So at the end of the book, you're like, I completely can look at my anxiety as a version of my younger self. as opposed to just knowing that I feel it, like I really feel that this is the issue.
And then when you're actually getting at the correct root cause of the problem, you start making progress.But if you don't, if you're just sort of treating your thoughts, you don't really get at the root cause.
Yeah.And the meditations do that.They really do the repetition and that, and they're just, they're so calming and it can totally change my mind state going into that.It's like the cold plunge and going to the gym and all those things.I don't know.
I find they do that too.Are you going to add more meditations on there?
I am.I'm actually doing another one.You know, you know what I'm working on right now?Like when I go to the gym, I listen to these motivational recordings, right?
So it's like, you gotta get up at 4.30 in the morning, half an hour before you go to bed and work, work, work.You know, I don't believe in any of them, but I do notice that when I listen to them, I stay at the gym longer.
I do like 12 reps instead of 10.So I thought, I wondered, if this might work for anxiety, because there is this, you know, when you're anxious, there is this frozenness about it, right?
So I'm creating this thing right now, and I've been working on this script now for almost three months, but it's coming soon, where I talk about, you know, kind of in a motivating way, not this like, not that quite, but just like, okay, you know, you have to decide not to be a victim.
You really have to decide not to be a victim.And how we do that is we stand up, we move, we go forward, we lean into, we get on the balls of our feet.
When we're facing a tough situation, you know, I have a client right now who's going through a divorce with her husband. And it's like, she looks at him like Goliath.And it's like, no, no, no, no, you're not a victim here, right?
Because if we look at life as a victim, we're gonna create the same neurochemicals as a victim, and we're just gonna confirm all these negative thoughts about ourselves.
So even just creating this feeling in our body that we're strong, even they did a study, I think it was at one of the New York universities, about doing the Superman pose, where people would stand up, put their hands on their hips and puff their chest out.
And they felt just so much more powerful and they were much more likely to be able to go into a talk to a group of people or a tough conversation or whatever, because you're creating these, you know, neuropeptides and hormones that actually focus on being in control rather than this default state that we anxious people get into of being victims, which basically just cycles on itself, right?
So this is, you know, I'm glad that you brought this up because I've been working on this for, I don't know if anybody else has ever done anything like this.So it's really important for me to kind of get in there and listen.
Because I noticed, like I said, when I go to the gym, if I listen to these things that are motivating and direct, it's like, you've got to do this and you've got to do that.Not that mine is like that, but it's kind of like, hey, stop being a victim.
Right.Recognize when you're a victim, you know, lean, lean in, like lean into stuff.Don't, don't withdraw from it.And I've listened to, I made a couple of like beta versions of it and it's pretty good.
It's pretty good, but I've got a little perfectionist streak in me.So it's like, ah, I could do this better.I could do that better.
But within the next month, I'll make you the, I'll make you the, the thing that I will put it out within the next month.So I'm glad I'm talking to you today.Cause I, I work best on a deadline.If I don't have a deadline, I just procrastinate.
No, and so that's what's got other ones, hundreds and hundreds of times and I'm not even bored of them.And like, like your other lady said to you, I do fall asleep most of the time too, but I mean, that's good.And you know, so that's great.
Well, it's just creating a sense of safety in your system, and I think that's one of the reasons why people wake up with anxiety, and I was talking about this before, is that your body is completely relaxed, and sometimes being relaxed when you're younger wasn't safe, because we keep this, especially as children, we keep this idea of being hypervigilant.
We need to be hypervigilant.So when your oligopontine nucleus in the brainstem shuts off your muscle function and paralyzes your muscles, they completely relax.
So when you wake up into this completely relaxed body, it can be shocking, especially if you don't trust safety.That's one of the things in the book is that when it's not safe to feel safe.
So when we don't feel safe feeling safe, it's almost impossible to heal.So creating this unconscious safety is so important in the global healing from it.
So that you can have this place where you do feel safe, you do feel like, I am in charge, I'm not a victim, I can move forward.And then that feeds on itself.
You know, what I say in the book hundreds of times, you know, whatever you focus on, you get more of.
So if you focus on not being a victim, if you focus on moving towards your challenges and doing so with faith that things will be okay, because 99 times out of 100 they are anyway.We just focus on the worst case scenario.
So it's just really being in this place of, okay, can I change my
my physiology, because I often say it's much more effective to change your body physiology, to change your psychology, than it is to try and change your psychology to make your body feel better.
Yeah, that would be impossible.That would be really hard, yeah.
So how are you with teaching now?
Well, I've been doing it for three years.I had a 14-year break. And I think during that 14-year break, my anxiety wasn't that bad.I mean, it was there in the mornings, but it wasn't that bad.But at the same time, my mom has a major decline right now.
So my mom has dementia.And that's when I started teaching again.So I think it just like all this sort of meshed together kind of layered stuff.So I'm anxious every day before. But I do it, so I don't know.
It was like me with stand-up, right?So every time I would go on stage, I would feel anxious.But I noticed that there was a different anxiety feeling from stand-up than there was from just generalized anxiety.
Like they were quantitatively, they were very different.Yeah.They were in the same kind of field and that kind of thing.But, you know, so how did you, how do you get to the point now where you feel more comfortable with teaching? Or have you?
Well, I go to the gym in the morning and then I just don't give myself lots of time to think about it.That's the part because you're waiting all day.
And then it's not until three o'clock when everyone's coming home from work is when you're starting, right?So it's not waiting all day.If I could dive into it first thing in the morning.
No problem.Right.But yeah, it doesn't work that way, which is fine.But the gym helps because I have a really good trainer.She's really, really tough.
So it makes a difference.So what I would, what I would do is like find that alarm in your system throughout the day and just put your hand over it and breathe into it and kind of
you know, you're kind of reassuring that little 12, 13 year old that she's okay.Because you really are digging up the same kind of helpless feeling that you had when you know, you lost your dad.
So I don't want to trigger you or anything like that.But it's like, we do, we do need to get into that same feeling, get into that same ballpark with that feeling.And then just put, you know, put your hand over it, breathe into it.
just show yourself that you're okay.And it's not showing adult Catherine that you're okay, it's showing child Catherine that she's okay.And then over the course of time, you kind of couple with that younger version of yourself.
Because like I said, there is this separation between our adult self and our child self.And what I say often is that the child doesn't trust the adult in us because we've left them alone for so long.
And the adult doesn't want to go back to the child because the child holds all their pain, right?So there is this sort of glue that kind of, maybe not the right term, but it keeps us separated.It keeps us stuck apart from ourselves.
And not that you can jump into, you know, younger you, you know, lost dad, you kind of thing immediately and for any length of time.But you can start feeling that and allowing it to metabolize in a way now that maybe you didn't get back then.
Because my sense is that that's still what's driving your, your kind of teaching anxiety, like it's still there.
And if you can find a way of kind of connecting with that younger version of you, and just showing her that she's okay, you know, that we're safe.Even in the middle of a lesson, you know, just sort of putting your hand over that area.
There's an actor, I think his name is Pascal.And if you see him, I think he was in Game of Thrones or something like that.And if you see him on the red carpet, he's always got his hand over his solar plexus.And then he talks about that.
He says, like, I just put my hand over my anxiety.And then I take it one step further.And it's like, you know, I'll bet you that's little Pascal.I bet you that's the younger version of himself.
And I know that sounds kind of woo and flaky and stuff, but I was in every type of therapy for 40 years and nothing really helped me until I started working with this sort of sensation of alarm that's in my system.
That's really what, you know, and allowing that to metabolize.
And that's what I was saying earlier about when people tell me that their alarm is starting to change in character or intensity or location, that's a great sign for me because it means that things are starting to shift.
They're starting to get out of that old locked pattern of protection.
Good, because mine definitely shifted.Yeah, that definitely made that shift too.It's almost like a performance anxiety too.
So once you get going, it changes into excitement, like a lot of musicians will say that too, right?
You take that energy and it goes into excitement. But there's definitely some triggers there.
It's learning how at noon when you're having your lunch not to start dreading the three o'clock appointments.It's just like, okay, how can I, like I said before, how can I lean into this?
Because in a way, when we get these things, we do get on our heels, we do get a bit victim-y. And then, of course, that just creates victim physiology with, of course, victim psychology, and the whole thing just cycles on itself.
So it's learning, in a way, is sort of teaching yourself, no, this is good.
And getting into a felt sense of what it feels like after a session, you know, when things have gone well and things are good, like really settling into that sensation, like rather than just, okay, I'm going to go make dinner right now.
It's like, can I sit there after they've left for like just five minutes going,
you know, that went well or that didn't go well or whatever, but I'm still here just feeling like what it's like to have that sensation, you know, to have the session done with and feeling good about it.
Because so often we don't focus on the good, we just focus on the absence of the bad.
Oh, the one little thing that went wrong.
Exactly.Yeah.Oh, yeah.Oh, that's and that's especially for teachers, you know, especially for teachers.It's so because we want to do the best job that we can.And it's so hard when we notice that we don't do something right.
I was like that with stand up, you know, like, I do really well for the 20 minutes and there'd be like, two minutes in there.It's like a new joke didn't work that well.And I'd focus on that part, as opposed to focusing.
Yeah, but now I'm much better at focusing on the good.Like when you're at the gym, like how does your body feel when you leave the gym?Like really feel it, really allow yourself to sit in the car before you come home.
Just really like, that was really good.
Game changer.Huge, huge.That and your work.
Yeah, because you start teaching yourself.Oh, you know, it's safe actually to feel good.Because sometimes when we're children, it wasn't safe to feel good.There was all sorts of conflict in feeling good.
You know, I mean, when your situation is like, there's a specific thing, but for a lot of people that I deal with, it was like they would have like abusive parents or alcoholic parents or whatever, you know, it was chronic, you know, and it wasn't safe to feel good.
It wasn't, you know, they were always waiting for the other shoe to drop. So it's a matter of getting then in the alarm.But I want to hear a little bit more about the difference between the first book and the second book.
Because when you do something, and I wrote that first book five years ago, published four years ago, wrote it five years ago, and you always look back and you go, oh, that was crap.
I did read the first book to make the second book and I was like, Oh, I didn't want to say it that way.I wanted to say it this way.And it just gave me this brilliant chance of doing that.
But without and what we were just saying about when focusing on the negative, right, like focusing on the negative of the first book, I was like, Oh, But everything you did five years ago wasn't as good as you do.
Oh, yeah, it is.The first book was like is a huge eye opener to someone who's never been introduced to any of those concepts.You're just right.You're blown away with that.Like, I don't there's no other books out there like that.Right.
But with your concepts and ideas and that.So and your tireless work on the subject, because we've read, you know, the feel good books and all the different ones to CBT and all that. So that one, that kind of just blows you away.
I just find this one's just really clean and concise and just kind of to the point and easy to read, easy to follow.I have to go back through it and take notes on it.I'm just kind of doing a general listen the first time.
And then it's like, you need to do these steps.You need to do A, B, C, D, E, whatever.You have to do these steps.
And you have to practice it.And you referenced like the Mel Robbins and the 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, because I follow her a lot too.I mean, those things all work.So it's a collaboration of that too.But yeah, I like it better than, well, you know.
Did you come across the Darth Vader impression yet?
Okay, maybe not.No, you know, you would have heard it.You would have heard it for sure.It's it's it's my I think it's my favorite funniest part of the book.So you probably haven't got you haven't got got there quite yet.So.
So it's like, that's what I try and do is I try and add some humor into like a fairly heavy subject.
You know, when you're talking about the wounding that we had as children and that kind of thing, like trying to add some humor into that just to break it up a little bit.
Because it is intense and it does sort of lock us into those old, you know, kind of coupling behaviors where, you know, we've locked into this feeling of discomfort and felt it so often that it's familiar.
And because it's familiar, we just unconsciously keep reproducing it over and over and over again in this kind of futile attempt to make ourselves feel better.But really it's just a familiar feeling.It's not a good one.
No.And it's definitely familiar.Yeah. Yes, it's interesting, but no, I find that, yeah, I like the blue too.I don't know.I like it.
Yeah.When the, when the, when the publishers asked me, it's like, are you, are you, you know, handcuffed to that cover?It's like, I like the cover, you know, cause I made it and I like the squiggles in it and all that kind of stuff.
And then, and then this book called Unwinding Anxiety came out and basically covered the, you know, copied the cover, like almost.
completely the same and like, Hey, this is my cover, you know, and, and then four more books have been, have come out called, been called anxiety RX.
So, and I guess there, I have no, you know, I have no recourse with that as far as that kind of stuff goes, but you know, it's a, it's a sense of flattery.
You know, you must be on the right track if, if four people are covering you and copying your title and that kind of thing too.
Absolutely.Nope.It is.Absolutely.
So what do you think, if you had to say, was the most impactful part?I think we talked earlier on about separating the feeling in your body from the thoughts of your mind, right?I think that's such a critical point in the whole thing.
It's like feeling that discomfort in your body and just starving the thoughts. You know, as Danielle was saying, like starving the thoughts for attention.And I, you know, the little mantra that I use is sensation without explanation, right?
So you just feel the sensation of it without the constant need to explain what's going on.
And then you acclimatize to that sense, you know, Bessel van der Kolk in The Body Keeps the Score says, you know, we're not teaching people how to get rid of their anxiety.
We're teaching people to acclimatize to that sense of alarm, he doesn't call it that, but I call it that, in their body so they don't have to compulsively go up into their thoughts and worry.
So what would you say has sort of helped you the most, you know, get out of this kind of anxious loop?
That's the huge part is not attaching a thought to it.When you wake up with that every morning, you race around and touch.And I was like trying to let it just kind of feel it throughout my body.And it's like, guess what?It went away.
I'm like, well, that's strange.And then your brain starts that. working up and like, no, we don't have to start working something up.And that's like sort of moving a lot too.
Not attaching a thought to it because my brain will just race until it finds something.And then I get stuck in the loop for the whole day and then I teach and my lessons go fine.Everything's fine.And then I'm done and everything's fine.
I've gotten these grooves and it's just stuck into my head.So.
Well, there is this part of our brain called the default mode network.And basically the default mode network is what your brain does when you're not actively doing something.
So there is a part within that, not to get too technical, called the posterior cingulate cortex.And the posterior cingulate cortex may be involved in self-referential thinking, like what we think about ourselves.
So this is what I write in the book like jabs, like judgment, abandonment, blame and shame.
So there is this place that when we're not doing something active, like not at work, not teaching, not doing something active, this default mode network gets lit up.
And if that default mode network has all these negative self-referential thoughts, that's when we're not doing something, we will default into the groove of worry. So it's really interesting to see how that default networks works.
And so this is what mindfulness does.
Mindfulness brings you into the present moment, makes you do something, even if you're basically just trying to do nothing, it still activates your brain and it pulls you out of that default state when the default state is really grooved into worry and rumination and negativity, especially negativity towards yourself.
So when we're not doing something specific, our brain will start defaulting into this sort of negative kind of fearful pattern.And it's just the way that our brains, our brains are wired to pay attention to the most negative experience in our system.
And it's trying to be able to understand, okay, can I, instead of going into this self-judgment, abandonment, blame and shame, can I go into this place of just physical connection with myself?
Not even thinking, not even saying, I'm a good person, people like me, whatever it is.
It's just going into this feeling of, okay, putting your hand over that area and kind of essentially saying to your younger self, hey, I'm with you, I'm here, I'm here.
And this is what I say a lot, is that that child in you may not trust you right away because you've been abandoning them for decades sometimes.But just keep going, just keep going.
And one of the things that I like doing is getting people to, I call it commiserate, which is kind of a negative word, but just saying to yourself, like, it must've been really hard for you.
Like for you, it would be, it must've been really hard for you when dad died. And just sort of seeing what she says.And knowing that this can really light you up, so you can sort of move away from it, breathe, that kind of thing.
You don't have to stay drenched in it, but it's just allowing yourself to feel it, even if it's just dipping your toe in and coming out, dipping your toe in and coming out.
Because that's how we use neuroplasticity to kind of start healing that part, instead of just kind of pushing it to the side when it flares up.Because it's like whack-a-mole, it'll always come back.
Oh, and it sure does.Absolutely.One thing I can count on, right?Until I get better.
Yes.Yes.So you're the first person to actually give me a little bit of feedback on the new book, which is great because it's only been out about 10 days now.And yeah, and I just like, I really put so much time.
I used to get into, I get into these things that Cynthia, my wife says, you know, you get into phases, writing phases where I'll get up at four 30 in the morning because I'm not a morning person, like not at all.Right.
I'll get up at 4.30 and I'll write from 4.30 till 10.30.Then I'll go right back to bed because I'm exhausted.But it's just there is all these ideas come up in my head.It's like, oh, I want to put this in there and I want to put that in there.
So I wanted to make it like when you say it's concise, I really love that because the one of the things about the first book was they say it kind of meanders around, which it does, you know, which it does.Yeah.
So but this one just being like, here it is.This is what I think this is what's going to help you.And that's why I wrote it in like 108 chapters is that
Short chapters is there this is what I think is gonna help you This is what I think is gonna understand and a lot of people will say have you know said to me?
There's so many aha moments in there that it's like I've highlighted more of the book than I have it And I love hearing stuff Yeah, it really is.
So is there anything you want to close with Catherine?It's been it's been great speaking with you and
Yeah, clean, concise.And I'm looking forward to reading again.I just want to say thank you.I mean, for all of your work and tireless energy and trying to help us out.
And, and yeah, and just putting that out here for us, because there's a lot of us and we don't tend to connect to each other.I don't know why, but no one talks about it.So yeah, it's hard to know.Like, I don't know.
Well, it's a great point too, because when you're struggling with anxiety, you do shut off this social engagement system, eye contact, tone of voice, positive voice, body language.
And I've talked to so many partners of people with anxiety and they say, you know, I just lose them.
But it's not our fault in a way is that we've shut off the connecting part of us because the anxiety, the alarm has actually put us into this evolutionary survival state.
And when you're in a survival state, you're not loving and caring and connected because you're in survival state. So that's it's such a great point is realizing that, you know, this is what I say to partners of people with anxiety.
It's not your fault.It's not, it's not something you're doing or not doing or whatever.It's just that when we get into these phases, we've shut off the part of us that actually allows us to connect because we're in fear.We're in alarm.
We're very good at appearing normal. You know, we're very good at appearing normal.I mean, I did stand up comedy, for God's sake.But it is one of those things where we're not all there.Like when we're in this anxiety place, we're not all there.
We're not able to connect, which and connection and love and connection is what you need the most to help you heal.And the worst part of anxiety and alarm is that it shuts off the very part of you that you need to heal.
And that's what I think my work does.And a lot of it is kind of selfish in a way, because it's, it's this is what I've had to do to heal myself. Because I went through all the psychiatry and psychology and I did EMDR and all that sort of stuff.
And it had some limited benefit for sure.But it's really understanding that it's this connection with your adult self and your child self and your mind and your body.That's really what allows you to connect to yourself and connect to other people.
And the more you connect with yourself and the more you connect with other people, the more you get into this place where you don't need the alarm anymore.Because the alarm was there to kind of protect you in the first place from,
ironically, the feeling of abandonment.So if you stop abandoning yourself and you start connecting with other people, the alarm goes away.
It does.And it absolutely does go away.And thank God, goodness, it goes away for long periods of time, and hopefully permanently, you know, with your tools and everything.
And I figure I'm at the stage of just obviously I haven't done any of the body work.So that's where I'm at stages doing the somatic besides going to the gym.
Yeah, and I think that's a start.I think one of the things about healing from this kind of thing is that it is a gradual process and it should be because if it is these rapid things, they don't last.
If you look at neurochemistry and neurophysiology, if you make a synapse and you practice it over and over and over again, it lasts.
But if you make a signups, it'll help you initially, but then you'll just forget it and it'll stop and you'll go back to where you were before.So it's really important to what I try and do is empower you to help heal yourself.
So you become your own connected person now that you so badly needed back then.And that takes practice and it takes a while before that childhoodness actually trust the adult to take care of them.
And I think that's what takes the most time in healing.
Yeah, slow.Like you said, you were saying just two steps forward, one step backwards.Yeah.
That's how it works.Because I think your system does test you.When you go into a period of stress, it will test you by firing up that alarm again.And then you just show it.It's like, no, you know, we're actually connected to ourselves.
We can breathe into this.We can stay with it.We can show the alarm in our system that it doesn't have to stay.It doesn't have to protect us anymore.The adult in us will start protecting us now.
We don't need this childlike alarm anymore to protect us anymore.And I think that's how we slowly kind of heal.
Yeah.No, absolutely.No.Thank you.
Well, that's going to do it for this episode of the AnxietyRx podcast.Thanks for joining me.As always, my goal is to make sure that you don't have to suffer with anxiety the way that I did.
That's why I wrote my book, AnxietyRx, now in its second edition and created my very affordable MBRX online program to help you heal from anxiety instead of just coping with it.I post episodes every week, so I'll be back.
