and Kate about her recent piece, "The Truth About Organic Milk," which details how cows are suffering on even the most humane dairy farms; why raising cows in herds on pasture isn't always enough; the pros and cons of being so strict about antibiotics; and yet, although organic farms aren’t perfect, they’re still way better than “conventional” (i.e. industrial) farms.

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Atlantic staff writer Annie Lowrey talks to Mark and Kate about her recent piece, "The Truth About Organic Milk," which details how cows are suffering on even the most humane dairy farms; why raising cows in herds on pasture isn't always enough; the pros and cons of being so strict about antibiotics; and yet, although organic farms aren’t perfect, they’re still way better than “conventional” (i.e. industrial) farms.

Subscribe to Food with Mark Bittman on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you like to listen, and please help us grow by leaving us a 5 star review on Apple Podcasts.

Follow Mark on Twitter at @bittman, and on Facebook and Ins