Hello there, my name is Dr. Neil Butchery, food historian and chef, and welcome back to the British Food History Podcast. Today is a very exciting day because we are tackling a very important topic.Crisps.Their history, their place in food culture.
I think you're going to enjoy it a lot.As usual, news of events etc at the end.But a couple of headlines.And before we begin properly.A huge thank you to everyone who came to the Halloween Zoom event with Alessandra Pino.
Where we discussed monsters in literature and their meals.As well as some real life monstrous meals.And we're thinking perhaps it may become a bit of an annual event, who knows.
Also, big congratulations to listener Nancy Desmond, who won my prize draw for subscribers and donators, a copy of both Need to Know and The Philosophy of Puddings, my two new books, will be posted off to you.
Now don't worry, non-subscribers, I'm not leaving you out.I appreciate everybody who listens.You all know that. And everyone is doing such a great job, by the way, at making the podcast ever more popular.
So there's going to be another similar competition in a couple of episodes time that is open to everyone.
And I'll tell you news later of an in-person Manchester talk, a free online talk on the history of puddings, some pudding workshops, signed books, and a brand new blog post.So that's your heads up. All right, let's focus back on today's episode.
Well, today I'm speaking to food writer and journalist Natalie Whittle about the iconic snack food that is the humble crisp.Natalie's book Crunch An Ode To Crisps was published last month, October 2024 by Faber and Faber.
And as you will soon find out, it fired off many food memories for me, having been a crisp glutton my entire life.We talk about The North American origins of the crisp.The excitement of discovering the crisps of other countries.
Iconic brands like Walker's and Tato.And most importantly, what the best flavour is.Amongst many other things.I'll be back at the end with news and info regarding this week's Easter eggs.But now, crisps with Natalie Whittle.
Welcome to the podcast, Natalie.You're very welcome.
Great to be here, Neil.Thank you for inviting me on.
Oh, well, congratulations on your book, Crunch, An Ode to Crisps.Where to begin with?It's one of those things, I'm a big Crisp fan, by the way.So when I found out about this book, I just thought, oh, this is amazing.
And I also thought, why the heck have I not thought about covering this topic before?But it's one of those things where the everyday things that you don't think about are often the most exciting or surprising things that you might write about.
Well, I don't want to immediately take us down a rabbit hole, but a fun fact for you.
I was testing out Amazon's AI, Rufus, the other day, and I asked him a question about my book, and he immediately came up with a sort of like a vague, oh, I can't tell you too much about this book because I haven't read it because I'm an AI, but many books have been written about crisps.
and he credited you as the author of the book about Chris.So somewhere out there, cosmically, you have already written a book about Chris.
In the universe where I did have the idea.
Yeah, I can tell you the title if you like.
The Crispmakers by Neil Buttery.This book provides a detailed look at the crisp industry through interviews with company founders and employees.I thought that was uncanny.That is very strange.
And I suddenly had a panic because I put so much research into this book.I thought, how could I not know that this book exists? but it was a glitch.
That's so funny.Luckily, another book hasn't been written on Crisp.It's funny, I mean, we get this all the time with food history.People don't really think it's worth writing about food, maybe because it's so, I don't know, transitory or something.
It's not around for very long.It's not the same as architecture or fine arts, even though that much effort might go into it.And I guess people maybe might think that even more so with
snacks that are literally thrown away in their packets, you know, people might think it's not worth writing about.What made you decide to write the book in the first place?
Well, I think you're absolutely right.People do have a sort of variety of opinions about what makes a good nonfiction topic.
I suppose for me, this one was like, it was really something that started with the very basic sort of writing principle, you know, write about what you know and what you love.
I'm not ashamed to admit, I unraveled this subject rather than kind of began sort of knowing that I'm going to take, I'm going to take on a sort of
battle in World War II, something where you think, you know that there's a kind of body of archival material already out there.
It was a tricky one to sort of put together because the more I tried to sort of organise, you know, how will I write about crisps as a national British story and how that sort of became part of how we think of ourselves.
It sort of became sort of ever more mysterious, you know, potatoes weren't what I thought they were, our British heritage
heritage and sort of our pride of business in business of acumen in Chris, that wasn't really what I thought it was going to be either.
It was much harder than I thought it was going to be to sort of tell this kind of what seemed like a very familiar story of Brits being obsessed with Chris.
We are the sort of the only nation who goes nuts for hundreds of different flavors and varieties.That's kind of not true either.So yeah, it was that kind of investigation
I think when it comes to crisps, maybe not just in the UK, like you say, maybe other countries too, but it's something that people are very opinionated about.You know, what's the best flavor crisp?What's the correct way of making a crisp sandwich?
Which I'm assuming is pretty British actually, the crisp sandwich.
There's a Pennsylvania branch of the crisp sandwich debate.So we can come to that, but yeah, Ireland, Pennsylvania, Britain, we are the main people who worry about this.
Well, I really like the beginning of your book where you kind of set the scene for your own passion about crisps and the description that you make of going over to France and getting so excited about the French crisps and how different they are to the British crisps.
Oh, thank you.Well, I mean, I have that sort of locked in my head as a, I suppose, a life-changing moment.It was this little campsite in Brittany Me and my sisters were quite young at the time, and this was also one of our first trips abroad.
Again, classic 80s thing, sort of go on a camping holiday to France.Just this kind of giant red sack they have.Inexplicably, they didn't have kind of, you know, child appropriate tiny packets.
It was all these sort of huge cash and carry sized affairs. which we thought was wonderful.
But diving into them, I kind of, I think I was a bit enraptured by, I mean, obviously, it's the same, same idea, but there was something notably different going on.And I remember feeling that this was a kind of triumph of some sort to have discovered
a different way with crisps.And it is funny because, I mean, there were loads of other brilliant French foods that we got to try on the same trip, but it just wasn't quite the gear change that the crisps.
No, it's funny, one thing that I really identified with you, as they say these days, reading the book, was going to a new country and immediately not going to the nice bistro or restaurant or whatever around the corner, it's going down the supermarket.
to look at all the different flavours of crisps, plus other things.But I distinctly remember that.I lived in America for a couple of years and I was so excited about going to see what crisps were going to be there.
And I was slightly disappointed, I have to say.I was expecting there to be more choice than Britain.Although I must admit, I went back a couple of years ago and they've sorted themselves out now.There's a rich variety of crisp flavours in America.
But I still think we're making them as sort of more interesting, or maybe even just plain old eccentric.Why do you think we'll just go for the crazy flavours?
I mean, I don't think they're crazy, I think they're great, but outside looking in, I think Worcester sauce flavoured crisps and prawn cocktail flavoured crisps, it's nuts really, isn't it?
I mean, yes and no, I'd say to that, because I think if you look at Lay's in Asia, the variety of flavours that they have going on there really makes us look like really very unimaginative amateurs, to be honest.
They have played around with all sorts of savoury flavours that we wouldn't even dare to sort of go near.I think, you know, things like
crab and salted fish and lots of things that I think in part sort of remind you that you know obviously from region to region there are sort of things that you kind of are accustomed to. through a sort of inter-generational food style, I suppose.
But then seasonal flavours as well, like there's a sort of flat lemon tree somewhere in the south of Japan that has a kind of crisp that sort of comes into a special edition. to honour the harvest.
Not only do you get a lot of variety elsewhere, you get something that's something that we don't do so much of, which is seasonal in a way that, you know, food ideally should be seasonal.
I suppose we do a lot of more, which I think is really different and perhaps isn't something you find elsewhere, is to be playful with it and to be quite
nudge nudge or making a little kind of wink or a nod to something that's going on in the news or in historical sort of milestone like Coronation Chicken, Warcliffe did that for Michelle, you kind of get this sort of bogus stuff that is going on in sort of hip restaurants in London, you will get picked up by
supermarket-owned brands here.And I think it's quite fun because it's not straight down the line like, oh, we must do what restaurants are doing.It's kind of like this sort of shadow thing going on where it's poking fun on it.
Yeah, it's demeaning it, but in a very fun and knowing way, isn't it, I suppose.
This happened a bit with Prawn Cocktail, you know, when Prawn Cocktail was all the rage in the 70s as this sort of la-di-da, get out the demned glassware for your Mary Rose kind of presentation.
Yeah, shred that iceberg.
And Prawn Cocktail Chris sort of like came alongside that sort of idea.There is a sort of a bit of a joke, I don't know if I go so far as to call it a sort of of a satire.It was sort of like, well, yeah, satire is probably the best word.
Yeah, well of themselves to sort of present these dishes.But here it is in a packet for 49p.Yeah.
And of course, we've all forgotten about prawn cocktails in real life, but it's been fully absorbed into the crisp culture of the country.It's very strange.That's remained.It must be one of the top 10 favorite crisp flavors.
Certainly when we were kids, I would say it's a kid's favorite flavor, at least a kid of our, we're of similar vintage, I think.
I think we are, yeah. I suppose the thing about prawn cocktail is that it's a tiny bit, I think the powdered formula is a tiny bit more sugary.And that is actually why that row blew up.
Around the EU directive on something to do with artificial sweeteners in foods.And by joining in the sort of EU regimen, we were going to potentially lose our ability to to have that nice kind of sweet sour cocktail.
Leading to Boris Johnson and others kind of kicking up a fuss about almost nothing.But yeah, it is definitely a childhood favorite.
Oh, could I ask you also, during the 18 months, 24 months it took you to write the book, were crisps basically tax deductible for you as research for the whole time?
I'm very glad you're the first person to ask me this.
Well, as a fellow food writer and things like that, you know, these are the things that I think about.It'd be amazing.Essentially got free crisps.
Yeah.Well, I didn't, I didn't get any free crisps.I didn't want to kind of go down that road and, um, you know, be asking for free crisps, but I will be putting crisps on my, um, next tax return.
Very important.I mean, you're the world's leading expert on crisps.
Your words, not mine.I think this is the other thing.
Well, you're the only person to have written one, a book on it, I mean, so.
The thing about The Crisp World that's kind of fascinating and very frustrating about at the same time is that a lot of the expertise is kind of kept really, really far behind the factory doors. Part of that is for a good reason.
You know, there's quite a lot of industrial espionage.People between the different companies, they want to know which equipment is being used, what their trend forecasters are looking at.And so there's a value to that secrecy.
The flip side of it is that you don't often get experts on crisps, of which there are sort of, particularly at Walker's, which is a real sort of
you know, work there for life type of place, you don't often get these people pushed forward as the sort of voice of a brand in a way that actually lots of other food companies have started to kind of cotton on to.
Yes, the human side of things.
The human side of it, yeah, exactly.So that is a bit of a shame about the crisp industry as a whole.There are some pretty fiendish minds that work on the new crisp.
Well, I didn't realize what a cutthroat world it was, especially over flavors and things like that.It was quite amazing.
In fact, one of the things I found quite depressing, and I think I should have, or even did realize it subconsciously, and I guess it's what you were getting at.I mean, you know, we've got Big Tobacco.
We've got big sugar and there's kind of a big crisp because, you know, we eat so much of the stuff, so many packets of the stuff.There's two main ingredients, crisps and oil.
So you think, okay, well that's fine, it's crisps and oil, but it's just such vast amounts of them.And the way they've got to be so, I mean, it's one of those things where you sit down, I mean, how much does a packet of crisps cost now?
About 85p or something for a packet of McCoys? That's my go-to.
Yeah, to a pound, I think, if it's an individual packet.
Yeah, you just think, how can that be?85p, and everyone who's handled this crisp and the contents up until me have made a profit.How can that be?
I think it doesn't necessarily work as breaking it down from what the packet costs and to think of it that way.I think at each stage, people sort of make sure that their business can withstand prices they're paid.
I think one thing that did really surprise me is how onerous potato farming itself has become.Having spoken to a few potato farmers, I think
it became clearer that actually, well, one of them put it to me this way, that actually, that they are more in a position to pick and choose, you know, they could be growing potatoes for a chipper like McCain's or fresh potatoes for supermarket bags.
They don't have to grow potatoes for the crisp makers. Given that there are these very, very finicky potatoes that have to grow and they've had terrible troubles with the droughts and over the past few years.
There are bits of the potato, bits of the potato sort of chain, the crisp chain that could break down so that actually it would have to have a significant, it would have to be reflected in a significant jump in the price of a crisp packet rather than something which actually has, investors have always liked crisp because they're, they've been seen as inflation proof.
They don't actually go up in huge jumps over time.But you know,
if climate change kind of went to pot faster than we think it is going to, and if customers started to say, actually, I don't, I don't want, I don't want to exacerbate this problem by eating from a, you know, foil plastic bag.
And so on, you can sort of imagine different things that could break down, might have to be sort of bringing in all of our potatoes from Egypt or
or something like that, you know, that kind of expense, that would then be frightening in what you would end up paying for.
We've looked at your origin story a bit, but do we know what the origin story of crisps are?How precise can we be?I mean, in my experience, you usually can't be very precise looking at the origins of foods, but what did you uncover?
Well, Neil, I uncovered a couple of yarns.
Oh yeah, there's always a few yarns.
Yarns and some myths.Some urban myths and quite a few blind alleys, I must say.Yeah, I pictured myself sort of leafing through these handily organized national archives and the like, and it really didn't turn out that way.
British crisp history sort of starts after the First World War.
more or less kind of agreed as when it started as an industry, but the Potato Crisp itself is much earlier sort of 1860s America and an upstate New York resort, a fancy sort of place for the rich to sort of summer and play golf and go sailing, Saratoga Springs,
where, again, you know, myths and legends, there was supposed to be a chef at this restaurant, Moon Lake House, who, for one reason or another, came up with these delicious salted fried potato slices, and then word spread and everyone wanted them.
I think the thing that really surprised me about that was that crisps took off in a commercial way, because they were really fashionable in this slightly sort of Gatsby setting where it was fancy, expensive hotels.
And I think that really took me down one of the toughest parts of the research process, which is going through
the Chronicling America's newspaper archive online, trying to sort of find out how they spread from Saratoga to become a national product in America, which I sort of explain in detail in the book, so I won't go overboard now, but I suppose it was very much for a long time, you know, that they were the chic thing, you know, potato crisps were found on Saratoga crisps, as they were called for a while.
be found on all the sort of fancy hotel tables.And I thought of something kind of quite poignant in a way about that to sort of imagine how tastes change and how sort of entranced we are at certain times by what we think is fashionable.
that aspirational pull, always coming down, wherever it may be, chocolate, tea, other exotics like crisps.
There has to be so much sort of streamlining and business deals done behind doors, people buying each other out, getting monopolies, all this stuff to create something that used to be just like you say, they're just the upper crust are eating and suddenly it becomes,
Well, not bog standard, but, you know, I think it's fair to say that everybody from all walks of life enjoys a crisp.It's become a democratic food, if anything, I suppose.
It's democratic, but it's definitely tribal.Like, I think, get flavour preferences in different parts of the UK. salt and vinegar is very popular in Scotland, for example.There are sort of divides.
I thought it was interesting when I was reading the paperwork that the Competitionism Market Authority put together for the proposed takeover of Piper's Crisps by Walkers.
And they sort of gave it the green light in the end, because I suppose that the fear was that this is going to actually pretty much create a potential monopoly.But PepsiCo said, oh, no, no, you know, we want
what we want, what we don't have, what we want is a premium, premium, like a very fancy crisp.
And the CMA said in their sort of their briefing on it that actually they thought that people wouldn't really cross over between high, you know, high and low crisp sector.
So if you started off with posh Chris, you weren't, they said, you know, you were less likely to sort of go back in the other direction.
So I think they're democratic, but maybe there is a sort of slight thing of, you might stick more than you realise, even, I think that's probably true of my own Chris Chase a bit.
Yeah, no, I see what you mean.Everyone's eating crisps, but they're all being eaten in very different ways by different people.I'm surprised salt and vinegar are most popular in Scotland.
I would have guessed, assumed, I think I'm just probably projecting, because I like to think of myself as a salt and vinegar crisp aficionado.So I assumed salt and vinegar was very much English.
I don't know why, it's because, like I say, I'm projecting because I'm from England and I like salt and vinegar crisps. Do you know what England's favourite crisp flavour is off the top of your head?
I think it's cheese and onion.Oh, okay.Salt and vinegar, I guess.
It sort of makes sense to think of it as an English thing with, you know, the inspiration from, a supposed inspiration, again, sort of like the fish and chip shop and you're sort of taking your hearty everyday sort of British classics.
Roast chicken obviously used to be a lot more popular as a crisp flavour than it is now. but taking those as a minor suggestion really for what crisps could become.
How did Walkers, do you think, get so big?They are the sort of, I don't know, what's the equivalent?The Silver Spoon or the Tate and Lyle, whatever, of crisp companies.
How did they just, because your description of how Walkers got started, it's just so nice.You got these chaps driving around in their trucks with their nice suits on, and it's all very personable at first.And they go from that,
to just massive conglomerate within actually quite a short amount of time really.
That that really struck me as well that it was basically so right after the um second world war walkers got going in a tiny butcher in Leicester that's a kind of a bit of a business rescue pivot sort of like oh my goodness how are we going to survive sort of maneuver because of meat rationing really sort of
putting a crimp on the main business.And then they stayed kind of quite a sort of local brand really for decades.
The 1980s, which is the period when you mentioned the hauliers being issued these, well, not even being issued, being measured up by a tailor.Three bespoke Burton suits.That was the last era of
Walkers as a sort of familial, I think is the word you used as well, as a kind of, yeah, as a personable brand to work within, I suppose.
I think not to sort of comment on the culture there now particularly, but in terms of the size that the business dwelled to.
What happened really was that PepsiCo bought Walkers in 89 and they did it for quite a surprising reason because they wanted to plant
a strategic crisp fortress somewhere in what was now going to be in a few years, a bigger EU and to have a kind of, yeah, a place from which to sort of try and capture that market.
Very cleverly worked out chess move.
Yeah, I mean, it was really, I think, I mean, the other thing that happened, which Martin Glenn, who was the CEO for a long time, he wrote about in his book, he called the best job in the world or something, something like that.
He, he sort of said, you know, he was quite frank about it, that when he joined, Hawkers had a great product, but it wasn't a brand.It wasn't a kind of great brand.It wasn't actually a nationally known brand.
And so it's a bit depressing to sort of say that this is the answer to why it became so big, but advertising was a massive part of it. they really got themselves some really cracking advertising.
And then they were talking about how the adverts for the different, you know, there were KP, Golden Wonder.
You know, talking about the differences between the adverts.So there was a lot that that did really to sort of give them a leg up in terms of how much coverage they would get in the supermarkets as well.So I think they really did something strategic.
And then as PepsiCo, is as a brand sort of very ambitious about what it could achieve.
It is a bit of a sort of strange one to think of Walkers as this great British brand, which is actually in some ways been very, very culturally sort of influenced by a different kind of, different to previous owners, different in terms of actually ambition and drive of like, let's actually make this go great guns.
But I was actually, I was astounded, but again, thinking about it, I shouldn't have been, but astounded at the amount of effort and work that went into getting Doritos in.Because I was in the thick of that.
I remember it all happening, I'm being very excited.I'm buying a lot of cool original flavor Doritos.I was a total sucker for any of this kind of stuff.Absolutely.And then, yeah. I absolutely did, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Branigans were my favourite, but I think they're an Irish company.I think they're still hanging on in there, but they did a brilliant... They're not now, tragically.No.
They did ham and pineapple and it was delicious.
Yeah, Branigans, that is tragic, but they're not around anymore.
I guess that's what happens when you get the Coca-Cola company of crisps roll, rolling into everything.It's a cynical world we live in of crisps and snacks and soda pops, isn't it?That's what it's become.
They have a kind of a work ethic for new products, which is pretty astounding.The Doritos project in the 90s, it kind of did, it did make me chuckle actually sort of hearing
from one of the people who was on the team at the time, sort of how it played out.Again, this comes back to ambition.
They'd launched Doritos in the UK whenever it was in the mid-90s, and they immediately turned it into a sort of few hundred million pound product.But back at the pentagon of snacks, as they call it.
They were still thinking, you know, what's wrong with Britain?Why isn't this a bigger deal?There must be something wrong with, you know, the way that they're making it.
So they sort of put together a sort of squat team, squat team is that what we call it?A squat team.And from the development and sort of factories,
Coventry and Leicester had sent them on a road trip to the sort of key tortilla workshops and factories in the US and they sort of were there with their notebooks trying to sort of do their best to get a sort of a week-long degree in tortillas.
And then came back and there was sort of fears like doing all nighters in the factory trying to, trying to get something that the Americans would would sign off on as as an improvement and finally they did.
Again, yeah, I suppose that that sort of that level of commitment, I think, is definitely part of why it's such a massive brand.
But I guess the devil's in the detail with crisps and Doritos.If you've got a two or three ingredient food, any tiny mistake or irregularity is just going to be so obvious to people eating it.
Whether there's too much flavour on it, not enough flavour on it, whether it's the right colour, like you were saying, whether it's the right, whether it's the right shape.
One thing that you bring up in the book, all the potatoes have got to be really round and of a certain size and it occurred to me of course, yeah you never get, are you rare, you some, sometimes, I remember as a kid it'd be very exciting when you pulled out a giant crisp and that'd be quite exciting.
But they're all actually pretty uniform.And all these little things that I just hadn't thought about.You mentioned, is it in France or maybe continental Europe, they go for white crisps, whereas we kind of go for sort of a yellowish crisp.
It was fascinating.It really was.
It was all an eye opener to me as well.I think the white crisps in Europe, that's kind of like usually a result of kind of extra de-starching before they're fried. and you get these nice sort of wafer-y end results.
And I do really like that style of crisp.It makes me think instantly of a holiday, a wafer-y crisp, a little kind of stubby sort of French supermarket beer or something.Again, it comes back to the potatoes.
Americans do like much paler crisps, or so I'm told.Yeah, we need our potatoes to be in good order.
Yes, we absolutely do.We're pernickety.It's one of those things, isn't it, where if everything's going fine, you don't notice.You know, it's one of those tasks that, you know, you're never going to have people give me the thumbs up.
They're just going to give you a thumbs down when something goes wrong.It's hard.It's hard.It's like running any kind of hospitality.You know, if everything's running smoothly, no one notices.That's the trick.That's a trick to pull.
We've talked about walkers for quite a while but we have to mention Tato.
I mean they're out of all the Chris brands of the British Isles I would say that they're the most iconic, surely.
I think they've got the best mascots.
They've definitely got the best mascot.They are quite an underrated crisp.I suppose what is also true of brands that they're not always just making for their own label, you know, Tato also make loads of crisps for other people as well.
So we've got a lot of crisps to thank them for.Cheese and Onion Crisp was their big moment in the fifties in Dublin.Really two men, two men and a dog above a shop.
not quite that, but you know, it was a very sort of spitting sawdust set up to begin with.And they cracked a cheese and onion powdering.And then they really sort of flew from there.
And American investors started sort of coming in and eventually, quite quickly, they were taken over.So in Dublin itself, they're really, really very far from being the only game in town.
There's a Christmas festival there, actually, which I went to, which I wrote about in the book. And there were all these kind of like this sort of chat that was going on at this festival about which crisps were better.
It was quite funny because it's just like, didn't follow any of it was Manhattan's, which I think are great actually.I haven't heard of them before, but that's the sort of classic pub crisp.And I really like Keogh's as well.
Don't know if you've come across that.
No, I've not come across those.
Oh, that's an excellent, very crumbly crisp with a bit of the skin on. It's extra sort of crunchy and crumbly at the edges.It's delicious.
I do like it when they keep the skins on.Was it Smith's Crisps in Britain that had the jackets still on?Is that one of their things?I don't know what I'm talking about now.I can just remember them.
I've got all the different adverts conjured up as I was reading the book.It really did bring a lot of memories back, being a Crisp fan and a kid of very much of the TV generation. Love those ads.
Right, I've got some quick fire crisp questions for you if you want to give yourself a quick shake.We'll start with an easy one.What's the best crisp flavour?
I used to like the cheesy ones by Seabrook, I remember as a kid.
The best crisp that I've had in the past few years is by a Breton brand called Le Bret.
And it's Jura cheese flavoured.Oh my goodness.So amazing.I mean, I'm a massive, massive cheese person, quite apart from crisps. So I just think like the depth of flavor that you get from cheese itself.
Yes.It's not the chemicals that make you think of those flavors.It's actually the flavors themselves, the real stuff.
It's not just like, oh, let's, yeah, knock together some compounds in a sort of very impressive food science-y way.But, you know, when you actually kind of get massive blocks of cheese,
and drive them down, turn them into a powder, put them on a grater.I don't think you can beat it, personally.
That's a good, unexpected answer.I was expecting you to say prawn cocktail.
Prawn cocktail is up there for me.I also think, again, classic, you can't beat it.I think cheese and onion has to be, I think, that's a longevity choice.
Well, I think for the sort of cheese and onion and salt and vinegar, I mean, they're so, they go back, not quite to, you know, the absolute origin point of crisp, but they've been around for so long now, they just seem so, I mean, I think as a kid, I really thought salt and vinegar was pretty boring, but now I absolutely love them and it's the flavor I go for every time now, almost.
Yeah, I want to know what your favorite brand is.
Okay, so my favorite salt and vinegar crisps are Sea Salt and Chardonnay Vinegar. No, Sainsbury's.Sainsbury's own extra special range or whatever they call them are the best salt and vinegar.Yeah.
Co-op do a similar one.It's a total banger.Yeah.
They're just on the edge being too salty and being too acidic.They're fantastic.What's the worst flavour crisp?
I'm not too keen on any sort of beef.
It's just always so dry.I can't really get on board with it.
I like most crisps, but the ones that I really, I turn, I've only really, oh my God, it's me.The ones I've only ever really turned my nose apart are the, it was a full English breakfast and it was very eggy.
It was a definite eggy, sulfurous, no, I can't remember what brand it was.Was it Walker's that did a full English breakfast?It was just a limited edition thing.Anyway, it was horrible.Didn't like that one.
Oh, well, have you tried the Torres fried egg?
No, I've been put off by the full English one.Are they okay?
I think they're kind of, Probably, they would probably be enhanced by some other like Spanish things around them.On their own, I immediately start thinking of other greater crisps.They're very sulfuric and- That's the thing, isn't it?
Yeah, dehydrating, almost instantly dehydrating.
What crisp flavor or crisp flavors do you think should be brought back from obscurity?Is there any that you really miss?
I do have a bit of a yen for the Walker's Worcester sauce.
Yeah, agreed.I really used to like those.
Yeah.Again, it was that sort of tanginess.It was slightly sort of indefinable, slightly mysterious crisp.And I think others have given it a shot with more gastropubby sort of makeovers, but I would like to see that come back.What would yours be?
Cheese and you know, Ringo's. There was something, it was just put a lot of, quite a lot of the flavor on it.
So it was quite full on and it's very, I think it's very fake cheesy flavored, but you know, my eight year old me just used to think it was absolutely, absolutely fantastic.So I'll probably go that, very low brow choice.
No, but I think any, any crisp that really does lard on the flavor as well, I'm all for.
Well, I remember one time buying, they cost 5p, the really cheap crisps, and I remember getting, they were ball-shaped, and I remember being very excited when I pulled out a ball of pure flavor.
All my Christmases had come at once until I tried to eat it.And then it was like battery acid.But honestly, reading that book just brought back so many memories, stuff I hadn't thought about for like 40 years.It was so good to read.
Oh, I'm really glad it brought those memories back for you.I think that is a weird kind of quality that crisps have.I suppose it's, I mean, not unique to
to crisps in the food world, but lots of people have really, really specific memories, detailed specific memories of crisp encounters, like your kind of, you know, your one off flavour ball, or where they were, or, you know, a certain time when something happened or family ritual that sort of revolved around crisps.
But it's kind of nice hearing other people share their memories.
I mean, well, I'm going to have to stop talking to you because, I mean, there's loads of other things that just keep popping to my head.I'm not even going to get started on scampi fries.I love scampi fries.
It's been really good fun talking to you about the history of crisps.Like I say, it's brought back lots of memories.So thank you very much.
Thank you.And, yeah, I'm going to order some Sainsbury's sea salt chardonnay.
Thank you very much Natalie. Now were any food memories fired off for you, listening to our conversation?I bet there were.If you've got any comments, questions or queries, please let me know.Were we wrong about the best flavour?
And do you have a long gone crisp flavour or brand that you still hanker over?Please contact me, email neil at britishfoodhistory.com or find me on social media.
I'm on Twitter and Blue Sky, at neilbuttery or Instagram at threads as dr, that's d r, underscore neil, underscore buttery.
or post on the British Food History Facebook discussion page at facebook.com forward slash groups forward slash British Food History.Now there are three Easter eggs associated with this episode.
We look at the importance of the potato in British and world cuisine which I excised not because it wasn't interesting, no, but because we had so much to say about crisps.But I have made a note to do an episode on potatoes.
There's the full cut of our chat about farming potatoes for crisp companies as well and two quick fire questions that I had to take out for time.What is the most mediocre crisp flavour and are Pringles crisps?
I'm sure you all have opinions over those questions too.My mediocre crisp choice shocked Natalie. So there you go.Easter eggs are for my monthly £3 subscribers.
If you would like to become a £3 subscriber and access those Easter eggs, as well as extra blog posts and a monthly newsletter, please visit the website britishfoodhistory.com and go to the support the blog and podcast tab.
You can also gift me with a virtual coffee or pint if you fancy. And everything I receive goes into making more content.In fact, there's gonna be news about that later on in the season.Subscribers always get first dibs on any new events.
So if you want to get your place at my free online talk in December before everybody else. And before they all go, which they usually do by the way, why not become a subscriber?This brings me on to my news.Okay, yes, let's talk about upcoming events.
There's a tab of upcoming events on the website now, don't forget.Although I have to admit, and I apologize, I forgot to update it last episode.But I shall be doing this coming week, honest.
Now, there's a pudding workshop at the Museum of Royal Worcester, 23rd of November.I will be running it.It's an adult one.We're going to be making a Georgian plum pudding, drinking some nice mulled cider.
And as the puddings cook, I shall be giving everybody a food history tour of the museum.There's a link in the show notes.
On Friday 6th of December I'm giving that in-person talk, I mentioned it a few episodes ago now, at Manchester Central Library on the history of pies and puddings.
I'm going to bring some of my antique cooking implements with me and hopefully, although this hasn't been completely okayed yet, hopefully have some of the antiquarian books to show you from the library's collection.
Keep an eye out for the online talk on the history of puddings. It's not live on Eventbrite yet, but it will be soon.So look out on social media and the website.The talk is going to be on Tuesday, December 17th.
And as you know, it will be the £3 a month subscribers who get the chance to book their places first. What's next?Oh yes, signed books.
If you fancy a signed copy of any of my books, so whether it's my two new ones, Need to Know, or The Philosophy of Puddings, or the award-winning Before Mrs. Beaton, and A Dark History of Sugar, I can post them off to you with a nice little message.
Perfect for Christmas.Drop me an email if you want to order any.Postage and packing might be a problem outside of the UK, but I'll see what I can do about that. There's going to be a new tab appearing on the website with more details.
And I'm going to tell you more about that next time.Lastly, there's a new blog post.Very much inspired by my conversation with Sophie Grigson and her mum two episodes ago.My recipe for Singing Hinnies.
An Northumbrian griddle cake beloved by Jane and by me.Right, it is time to go.Thank you very much for listening.I shall see you very soon.Cheerio.
