Nicole Tini, thanks for being here today.
You're a documentary filmmaker, you have a production company, Tini Motion Pictures, love that name, and have recently partnered with our friends at ESPN 30 for 30 to produce, to host, to star in a podcast that deals with, among other things, the idea of extreme endurance racing.
Where does your relationship with running start?
I started running as a little kiddo.I wanted to be on a sports team because a lot of my friends were like basketball, soccer, and I was not good at any of those sports.I was very, very clumsy, always running into things and I still am.
But running was a sport that I could do and that I was good at and that made me feel At home in my body?Right, running.
What it means to you, both spiritually and physically, is a huge part of your 30 for 30.
As I ran, my lungs tingled, heart surged, and my heightened senses reminded me that I was alive.No matter what was going on in my life, running put my body in poetry with my mind. When I do long-distance running, I don't listen to music usually.
Sometimes I call friends and family, but oftentimes I'm just listening to my breath and feeling the ground beneath me.
But how did you go from running to racing, Nicole?
I got into racing, like many people, after a breakup.That was around 10 years ago that I really started to get addicted to racing.And yeah, I haven't stopped since. I just wanted to run more and more.My first big race was a half marathon.
And so after I did a half marathon as an adult, I was like, OK, maybe I'm ready to take a bite off the big one, the marathon.And then after a marathon, I couldn't help but wonder, could I go further?
And I started reading books about running and joining running clubs.And a lot of people on my running club were talking about this one book, Born to Run by Christopher McDougall.
A lot of people that have heard of it might know it as the book that inspired those weird toe shoes that you sometimes see people wearing while running. What caught my attention in the book was something different.
The author talks about how humans are one of the world's best long-distance runners, and that if the distance is long enough, technically we could outrun almost any animal.And when I originally read that, I was completely floored.
Like, that did not compute And he specifically mentions one animal, a horse.I was like, how can a person beat a horse?Could I beat a horse?It just kind of planted itself as a seed in the back of my mind.
So, Nicole, you said that this book planted the seed in your mind. that maybe you could race a horse, but there's a big difference between imagining you could and actually doing it.Are you trying to say that you raced a horse?
Hey, happy Halloween.Have we got a treat for you. I guarantee you haven't heard a story quite like this.
Nicole Tini, documentary filmmaker and creator, host, and executive producer of the 30 for 30 podcast, Girl v. Horse, brings us an inspiring story days before the New York City Marathon.
She breaks down the surprising history of humans facing animals in contests of endurance and shares her own personal quest to accomplish the unthinkable, defeating a literal horse in a race. I'm Michelle Steele in for Clinton Yates.
It's Thursday, October 31st.This is ESPN Daily.
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So, Nicole, this puts the title of your 30 for 30 podcast into a whole new perspective for me.Girl v. Horse.I had no idea that you actually raced a horse.
When I was told this by the producers that this is what we were going to talk about, my literal reaction was, what?Is this a thing?
Please tell us.Is this a thing?So actually, humans have been racing horses for centuries.
There's Gaelic lore about a goddess named Matcha who raced a bunch of the king's horses after her husband made some sort of like bar bet that his wife was faster than horses and she had to outrun the king's horses in order to save his life.
In this book called Born to Run, there's talk about the endurance running hypothesis, which is a scientific theory by the paleontologist Dr. Daniel Lieberman.In that theory, he says that humans evolved to outrun animals.
If you want to be a carnivore, you better be able to run.You pick an animal, the bigger the better, and you chase it in the heat.
Before we invented tools, we needed a way to get protein for our brains.The humans run for food to stay alive, while the animal sprints in desperation to save its life.For both, survival is at stake.
These chases can last up to eight hours, but most persistence hunters catch up to their prey within three to five hours.Curiously, that's about how long it takes most people to complete a marathon, including me.
And the reason why we're able to outrun animals actually comes down to our physiology, the way that our bodies are made. our short toes, our head stabilizing shoulders, the fact that we have two feet.
But the biggest contributor to us being able to outrun animals, it's our sweat.
Sweat.We are the world's best spreaders.No animal can sweat as well as human beings.
Sweating is something that I can do.There aren't many other animals that can sweat, or at least not very well.But a major exception?None other than the horse.
It's our ability to thermoregulate and being one of the world's best sweaters, we're actually able to cool down a lot faster than most other animals.We have really great sweat.It's very watery.Our viscosity is perfect for dumping heat and
There's only really a couple of their animals that sweat and one of them happens to actually be the horse.So in some senses they're a great competitor. Are there other people out there who have raced horses?
There are other people who have raced horses.There's two modern human versus horse races that are happening today, but this tradition goes back much further.In the 1800s, there was a guy named Foster Powell that
did a long walk between two destinations and he covered like 100 something miles and it just kind of wowed the world and people were like oh can I go further than him in a day and these races started popping up all over the place and it got so big that this long distance walking and long distance running sport grew a name called pedestrianism and it got
to the point where these races were held in large stadiums like Madison Square Garden.
Like these were the spectator sports to watch before football and soccer came around and eventually people got kind of tired of just watching humans run around a track and they needed something to kind of keep it exciting and
You know, one person bets another person, well, I bet I could go faster than your horse and we'll put your money where your mouth is.And horses entered the picture.And that is what captured the public for a long time.People couldn't get enough.
So much so that once the 1950s came around, one racer even appeared on the very popular game show called To Tell the Truth.
All right panel, Ido Romanoli ran in the longest race 157 miles.There were seven runners competing in the race.Three of them were men and the other four were horses.Do the horses have to assume a kneeling starting position?The answer is nay nay.
Did that knowledge of the history of this sport sort of affect your decision to race a horse or sort of how you want to race a horse?
So when I talked to Dr. Lieberman, I asked him, well, if I wanted to outrun a quadruped, so a quadruped is a four-legged animal, how could I do it?What would be my advantages?
So since sweating is one of our superpowers, if you will, having it be in the heat was one thing that I was looking for in my race.Definitely a long distance because I'm not going to outrun a cheetah or a horse in the short run.
If you've seen like the Kentucky Derby, like there's no way that I was going to run a horse in that short distance.So the race had to be a long distance, around 50 miles.And in the history, actually it's quite sad.
A lot of the horses were not properly trained or they were pushed beyond their limits.So horses died in some of those historical races.
And in fact, some people actually got injured too because there was a lot of money on the line and they were like, Oh, you know, if I beat this horse, I could win a lot of money.So I wanted everybody to be trained adequately prepared for the race.
And then I wanted to make sure that there were safety measures. for the horses in the race.
I can only imagine the number of obstacles that come to mind over the course of a 50-mile-long race.Of course, the body just physically being able to compete in something like this.
In the podcast, though, you discover another big obstacle that was affecting your ability to run.What did you learn about your own body that interfered with your quest?
So I mentioned earlier that I had this idea to race against a horse when I originally read about the endurance running hypothesis in Born to Run, but it was just a seed at that time.
I didn't end up fully deciding like, okay, now I want to race a horse until I had a tragic, surprising health scare and diagnosis that kind of threw my entire life off course.
I was supposed to run my second marathon, the New York City Marathon, in 2018, but And one day, I was with my mom, just a regular old day, and I got really sleepy and kind of out of nowhere.And I was like, Oh, I'm going to sit down and take a nap.
And I'm not a nap person, so it was actually kind of weird.Suddenly, I woke up in an ambulance and I was covered in blood.And I found out that I'd had a seizure.
From that point on, I started having more and more seizures, and they were just out of nowhere.And I was diagnosed with epilepsy.We had trouble finding a treatment, so that meant that I was having uncontrolled seizures.
And because the seizures were unpredictable, It meant that I couldn't necessarily be alone safely because we didn't know when they were going to happen.And that extended to not being able to go out for a run by myself whenever I felt like it.
So I effectively stopped running.And running for me was the one thing that kind of got me through tough stuff.So I needed something to kind of like give me hope.
For me to believe in myself that I could outrun a horse was just the sort of absurdity that I needed to kind of get me through a difficult time.I mean, there was a couple things that kept me going.
One was just having that goal of like, I need to be a horse.I have to be just one horse. And focusing on it actually was what sort of relieved my mind to thinking about, when am I going to find a treatment?Why am I having seizures still?
Or when am I going to get better?My parents were really there for me in a time when I really needed someone.And there was one person in particular who was really there for me. and that was my girlfriend Marielle.She was such a support to me.
She even started getting into running during the process and she kind of got hooked.I created a monster and we do races together now like We're doing the New York City Marathon here in a few days.
I'm curious about how you found a race because you wanted to be the sole runner alongside the horses, right?Why was that important to you?
There are actually a couple of human versus horse races happening today.There's man against horse in Prescott, Arizona.And I actually went to the man against horse race, scoping it out, trying to see like, is this the race for me?
And I gotta say the energy was amazing.It was super fun and it was very cool.But my goal of racing against horse wasn't to kind of go back into like the high-octane race hype, you know, gun goes off and like a storm of runners and you're competing.
That I love and was doing before the epilepsy.What I wanted in that moment was to come to terms with like my own battles on the inside, my own inner horses, if you will, and to prove to myself that I could do it.
And I wanted to kind of bring back that tranquil experience that I felt running alone before the epilepsy.And so the tone I wanted was to just kind of be out there by myself with the horses
So after calling so many horse rides, like hundreds of endurance rides, there was a horse race that finally said yes.And that race was called Ride Like the Wind and it took place in Kansas.
How did you train for running 50 milers?And with the caveat that you're also running against horses, did that affect what you did to train?
So starting out, I'd kind of lost my fitness and I had to begin to run again.So after I got like, okay, I have a strong base and I'm able to like run a solid amount.
I brought on an ultra running coach named Sarah Scazzaro and she was absolutely amazing and she knows the ins and outs of okay your body needs like
this much time to recover and if we're getting to have you peak at this day, you'll be ready by this day.There's a whole science to it.
And there's also like kind of funny things that you have to train for that you're I don't think I would have realized I had to train for unless I had her.And one of those unusual things that you have to train for an ultramarathon is your gut.
You have to be able to digest food while also still continuing to run.Ultra running is essentially an eating contest.
So it's who can fuel the best for the longest.
There's a reason why runners call it fuel and not food.When your body runs out of energy mid run, runners call it hitting the wall. To prevent it, I need about a hundred calories every half hour.
And I need to train my digestion on this weird alien-like substance that is appropriately called goo.Ugh, pure sugar.But Sarah says that's not the only thing that I have to do to prepare.
Inevitably, something is going to come up during your race.Gear is going to malfunction.There's going to be a terrain you weren't, you know, oh wow, that's a shocker.You know, like you can't control some of them.
But if you can control the controllables and then also have experiences that force you to adapt, then you're just more resilient and durable come race day.
Control the controllables.Remember that.
When you listen to Girl v. Horse, which I encourage our audience to go and do, you talk about this idea of average pace versus average effort.That was part of the technique that you needed to develop to do this.But what does that mean?
So when I've trained for marathons in the past, I've always been like, okay, this is how many minutes I need my miles to be.And that would mean sometimes I'd have to go a lot faster and get out of breath.And other times I'd be like, I'm coasting.
But for a race this long, you really kind of have to save some of your energy and keep a reserve.So my coach taught me to focus on average effort.
So that means sometimes if I was going up a hill, like I was going to take a lot longer out, my pace was going to be slower.The old pedestrians, those long distance six day runners, they had races called
as you go, where you could run or you could walk, just whatever you needed to do to get to the end.And I think that's true for ultramarathons today and that was true for me.
So I really loved that phrase that she taught me, average effort versus average pace.And I've, yeah, kind of tried to take that and apply it to my day-to-day life too.
What got you through this training period more generally?Like, it had to be arduous.
Yeah, it was tough.I think one of the hardest things about a long-distance race isn't always the race, it's the training.Because you're day in, day out, going out there for long runs, pushing your body,
And there were times where I just felt like I can't do this.And with the encouragement of my girlfriend, Marielle, with my coach.
Every individual goes through that at a point where you're like, I don't know if I'm cut out for this.Am I getting any better?But bad runs don't last forever.It's the consistency and the continuity showing up, you will find a breakthrough.
And just that goal of like, I've said I'm going to beat a horse, I'm going to beat a horse, kind of pushed me and I just kept going little by little by little. Tomorrow I fly out to Kansas where it is finally determined.Can I actually beat a horse?
But after five years of preparation, I am ready.With epilepsy, my body betrayed me.The seizures, haunting visions, the complete lack of control.
I might not be able to erase epilepsy, but in this race, this is one place where my mind can push my body and push it to the extreme.I want to prove that I still have agency, that I'm strong physically and mentally.
So not only am I going to run an ultramarathon, but I am going to outrun a horse.
Coming up, can the girl outrun a horse?
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Okay, Nicole, it's the morning of the race.Girl v. Horse is happening.Can you paint a picture for us at the scene?
So, I arrived on the scene, like, six-something in the morning, and it was kind of foggy.The sun was still starting to emerge.You could hear horses everywhere, neighing and, like, clomping around.
And there were 18 horses and riders that I was competing against that day, but I was the only competitor on two feet.And as I stood around these 18 horses, I was like, oh my gosh, how am I going to beat these horses?
And I just reminded myself, you only have to beat one horse. The night before the big race, there was a pre-ride meeting.And that's when I introduced myself to the group so the riders weren't like, who is this person on the trail?
We do have a runner here today.She's going to run with the 50 Mile Horses.Where are you, Nicole?Nicole flew here for this ride from New York City. to beat one of the horses.
Some of them were like, you go girl, you can do it.A couple of people were like, I don't know, these are the fastest horses in the country.I'm not sure if you can beat any of them.And on top of that, like you could get trampled.
So there was a bit of a like heart skip moment where you're like, oh man, like, I want to beat horses, but I also don't want to like die on the trail, get trampled.But I felt ready, you know, I had prepared myself.I was mentally and physically ready.
And having trained for so long to have my body physically ready to actually be able to go the distance. I start out just a bit after the 18 horses, and a little hot.I'm excited.For now, it's just me, the trail, and my phone.
So, less than five minutes in.Feeling good, like, okay, now maybe this can happen.
So, actually passed my first horse.
My very first horse.I'm no longer in last place.One down, 17 to go.
One mile, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10 miles.
Nicole, there's a part of the series that really interests me, stuck with me as a matter of fact.You're about eight miles from the end of the race.
It's all starting to kind of lose meaning when someone actually tells you there's only two horses behind you and you can actually hear them start to gain on you.
Yeah, about at that point I was just physically so beat. And I'd been training for this for years and looking forward to it for years and it pulled me through.
the epilepsy and in that moment when I hear the final two horses behind me gaining on me and not sure if I'm gonna beat any horses and still having eight miles left I just kind of my heart dropped and I was like what am I doing this for after all of this if I can't even beat one single freaking horse
The futility of it all is starting to set in.Beating the damn horses, 50 miles.I have put so much goddamn weight into that finish line, but it is literally just a picnic table. Nothing special on its own.Crossing it isn't going to change anything.
At the end of the day, I'll still have epilepsy.The trail after the finish continues, just like after this race, my epilepsy continues.The finish line is just an imaginary concept.I've spent years of my life training, dragging Marielle into this,
And for what?A failed, self-involved stunt.I look behind me.The two remaining horses are right there.This is it.I've lost.I kind of in that moment thought about, well, this in some ways is kind of like a a ritual of sorts.
All of this behind me has had meaning because of what I was looking forward to, which was that finish line.So even though it's just this kind of made up thing, it's still something that kind of gave me meaning in the past.
And so that's what makes it meaningful.Just the idea of kind of creating our own meaning. And like rituals in and of themselves don't necessarily always have particular meaning on their own, but we infuse them with meaning.
And for me, crossing that finish line was something that I realized for me was going to be a moment when I wanted to view my own epilepsy differently.
You know, in this moment where you are contemplating what this all means and the possibility that maybe you won't beat any of the horses, one of the riders actually asks if you want to tail.What is that?
Can you explain to our audience what that means?
Yeah, I'd never heard of tailing before either.So apparently it's when you grab a hold of the horse's tail and the horse starts running and the horse kind of pulls you along while you're running.So I was going much faster than I would have
just running by myself because every step I was kind of swinging through the air like twice the length that just my own body could thrust me.So it was this totally wild crazy experience because first off
to get there behind the horse holding the tail, you have to literally walk behind a horse, which is that thing that people say, don't ever stand behind the horse.
We have to stand behind the horse, grab the tail, which is awfully close to those kickers, and just kind of trust, okay, this horse, I hope it doesn't kick me.I hold the tail tighter and together we run through the dust.Our legs are moving as one.
My feet lift in the air.Every step is lighter.I'm faster with the horse than I am alone.
All right, not to spoil the end of Girl v. Horse, but we can't keep those listeners who have stuck with us to this point in suspense.I have to ask, how did your quest, your goal to defeat a horse in a literal race, actually come to an end?
Those two horses that I tailed passed me. and kept going.I was like, oh man, I've lost and kind of had to come to terms with the fact that like, okay, this was bigger than just me trying to beat a horse.So I kept going.
And by the time I got to the end, my parents and Marielle, my girlfriend, now wife, and a bunch of other writers and volunteers kind of made this makeshift finish line for me using caution tape. So I just broke through like, like you see on TV.
But the most exciting part was after I passed through that finish line, they were like, you beat eight horses.What?I know.I was like, how?What?I couldn't believe it.Eight? real life horses.I crossed the finish line before eight real horses.
I know I had said to myself as I was eight miles away, like, oh, it doesn't matter if I beat any horses, you know, come to terms with it, blah, blah, blah.But I mean, I really wanted to beat a horse.
So crossing the finish line and beating a horse, like, I was pretty darn happy.
So the day you outran not one, not two, but eight horses, Nicole, was roughly a year and a half ago.How's your life changed, if at all?You know, obviously, you were able to make this amazing podcast, and it's a phenomenal ending to this series.
But what did you sort of take away from the whole experience?
On the other side of the race, I feel like I've kind of come to terms with my epilepsy.I've sort of accepted it and it kind of showed me a different side of my body.So the epilepsy kind of made me feel like, is this my body?Am I at home on my body?
Does my body suck?And being able to finished 50 miles and beat eight horses showed me, well, okay, you know, maybe it doesn't suck after all, like maybe my body can do some things.
So it kind of gave me a fresh appreciation for what A, the human body can do and B, sort of restored my feeling of wholeness in my own body. It was a dream of mine and I accomplished it.
And I think that also gave me confidence in ways that I didn't believe possible.I mean, you know, you set out with a goal and you're like, I don't know, can I do this?
You know, and then being able to get there with the help of friends and family makes me think like, oh, you know, things things are possible.They're freaking hard.But, you know, sometimes things Sometimes things are possible.
Well, listen, congratulations, Nicole.This truly was one of the craziest, wackiest athletic achievements I've ever heard of, but you did it.
Congrats.Thanks.And thanks to my friends and family.And thanks to those horses.Thank you to the horses for being slower.
You can listen to Nicole's incredible story, Girl v. Horse, anywhere you listen to podcasts.Just search 30 for 30 podcasts in your favorite podcast player.I'm Michelle Steele.This has been ESPN Daily.We'll talk to you tomorrow.
