Welcome to the 34 Searcy Spa.
Welcome to Make Matriarchy Great Again. And welcome, everyone.Welcome, welcome to the 34 Circe Salon podcast, Make Matriarchy Great Again.Today, we are recording an episode in our Being a Bad Martha series.
And we are going to be talking about abortion.So content notice, if this is a subject that you would rather not hear about, skip to the next episode.We are talking today with Kimbob the Magnificent, Kimberly Rockwell.Welcome, Kimberly.
Say hello to our friends.
Hello, friends.Hello, listeners.I'm very excited for today's discussion.Should be a good time.
Absolutely.And Kimberly and I are joined with Kerry Stephanie and Tracy, who are generously sharing their time with us today to speak about their personal experience with abortion. So we're going to dive right in.
I have not had to have an abortion, although if it had been necessary, I would have.But our three friends here have.And so we wanted to talk a little bit about what that experience was like firsthand.
And then we'll talk a little bit about possibly where how they feel in the world today, and we'll just see where the conversation leads us.So, Keradwyn, Stephanie, Tracy, who would like to start?
I would, Carrie, I would like to start.Hi, how's everybody?I just want to say like, the first thing that occurred to me is like, what do we mean by abortion?And I tend to go to like the basic, well, are we talking about this or that or this?
And I don't want to get into like definitions, but I wanted to say like I've used the Plan B pill before and I was young and that was something that affected my body but didn't really throw me at all.
But I'd had also a medical abortion many years later, a couple decades later. For me, when I mean abortion, I also include medically induced miscarriage.
I include, in my mind, pregnancy prevention that should be available to women, in my opinion, of all kinds and all places.For me, the plan B
Counts for me to say like I get to choose whether I want to be pregnant or carry a baby Or give birth or adopt them out or whatever.
I want to do so That was occurred to me as the first thing to say like I mean when I mean abortion is a topic I mean control over my body
So I could tell my story a little bit.It's not the first time I've told my story.I've told my story to people who I know have also had abortions or had been thinking about it, decided not to.
People who were going to have an abortion ended up having a natural miscarriage instead.So it's not something that in my life has been really secret between women. and including my mother has heard stories.
There aren't certain people that get to know and certain people that don't get to know, so I'm very happy to be here where there's an actual forum where we can just say, yeah, let's talk about this because it's not shameful.
I can see from the inside, if you will, how it looks like on the outside to be shameful because I pay attention to the social message.
I was in a foreign country and the person that I got pregnant with he got I got pregnant He was in the United States and I was in another country and though it was an English-speaking country I felt really really really alone at the time and I was at an age where I thought gee, you know, I that all the options were open to my mind I could do
one thing or another.But at the time in the United States, there was no health care for me at my income level.And so for me, it was very clear that, you know, the man wasn't really going to be around and I didn't have any money.
And I was already on this grand adventure, traveling the world.And I just couldn't, you know, I just really couldn't.So there were several options in that country that I could avail myself of in certain ways.It took a lot of
work, but there he was sitting outside of a clinic in a foreign country and nobody was burning effigies outside of the clinic.I was just sitting there going, really?Really?Nobody's out here protesting just the fact that this clinic exists?
And it had a plaque on the on the outside and everything.It was just a regular row house with a plaque.And it was like, anybody could walk by and know that's an abortion clinic and nobody
was protesting, and I really, being from USA, I was just like, that's amazing.I mean, it's still, for me, it was sort of a harrowing experience, because I was not in my comfort zone.I didn't have friends that could help me.
I didn't have family members who could walk me in and walk me out.So mine might be a story of a little more trauma than another.But also, it was kind of easy, too, administratively.And judgmentally, there was no judgment.
I don't know if I have an addenda to that or a point, but that's kind of my story.I got the medical pill.
It took me three or four visits, and I wandered back into traveling, and it took me a while to get over the physical change and the decision-making part.I think the hardest part was the decision.
The easiest part was sort of the medical, although the very day of the abortion was not fun physically, and I can tell that later.But anyway, that's my story. That's my case I'm stating.
Thank you.Thank you for sharing.
It's interesting because you talk about no one outside protesting.The first time was so long ago.It was before people did that.So there was none of that experience when I was 16.The second time there was pamphlets given. But no, not a big deal.
Luckily, I'm old enough that it was so long ago that that wasn't part of the problem.But I would imagine it would be very difficult to deal with that.I'm glad I didn't have to.
Yeah.I come from a city in the South where I lived for almost a decade.And in the South, it was a very important thing not to be seen going to the clinic. Even in, you know, it was only 12 years ago, it seems people were still very upset.
Yeah, it was something that you didn't do publicly.
Tracy, want to talk a little bit about your experience?
Well, really, I was just a foolish young child who thought she was taking care of things, but clearly it did not do so well, effectively.But really, the decision wasn't hard for me.It was sad, but it wasn't hard.
The alternative had just so much weight to my life and so many other lives. that it was a very easy decision for me.But of course, sad and not taken lightly.The first time, I think, Kim, the worst thing was the guy's behavior was not ideal.
Oh, dear. I actually got to be with Tracy during during actually her entire surgical procedure, which I think is I think every 16 year old girl on the planet should sit in the room with her best friend as she's going through that.
But yeah, the guy basically didn't even show up to give us the ride he was supposed to.We had to call someone else to come get us from the clinic.It was it was really it was really sad.Very typical.It was such a a caricature of a situation.
Yeah.Definitely shows you that it was a right choice not to.
Yes.Yeah.Indication of what future behavior may have been like.
Oh, absolutely.I mean, I couldn't have had a more understanding partner who got me pregnant, but we were talking through Skype from a different country.And it was so interesting how little
I mean, he kind of rightly knew he didn't really have a whole lot of choice of what I did or didn't do.And he relinquished sort of any control, which is just verbally kind of like, well, I can't control what you do.
And but when he didn't give any opinion at all, or any seem to have any kind of emotional involvement at all, I that's what really that was hurt that hurt more than like, the idea that we weren't going to have a child, you know, that that wasn't the thing.
It was really? Where are you?Like, where are you?
Yeah, just disavowing any responsibility.
Just, you know, doing it in a way that he was trying to be sweet, but I don't think there's anything a man can do where you feel better.
I don't think that that's, I mean, unless you have a loving partner or husband or, you know, my, you know, some people I know had a husband and they were like, well, we're gonna do this with, you know, but
for my situation or many situations where it's like, well, I can't do anything about it and I'm a dude, so I don't know what you want from me kind of feeling.It's like, I think that's really hard.
I don't think it's ubiquitous, but I think it's the cliche that happens a lot.
That was the word I was looking for earlier, cliche.Yeah.Tracy, you mentioned the first time you were 16, Do you want to tell us any differences in your experience going through it a second time?
I think that, I mean, the second time was harder simply because I felt more foolish.I felt more responsible.I felt more I should have known better.But the situation was fairly the same.First was 16, second was 17, still very, very young.So, you know,
The decision kind of weighed the same in my mind.It was more just, I did not feel like I had behaved appropriately at that point since I let it happen again.
If I can jump in, I think that's such an interesting thought process that we have so imposed on women in this country.We've taken away so much of their bodily autonomy
that when something happens, they suddenly feel the need to bear full responsibility for their actions on it.And we've turned abortion into such an event, right, that it is, instead of just being healthcare,
instead of, you know, being something as simple and as accessible as going to a physician and getting a pill or, you know, insert thing here.It is like, and Tracy, I am so sorry that you ever felt this way.And Carrie, I am so sorry if
if you felt this way as well, that you think, oh, it's my fault.Oh, I did something so stupid.Oh, how could I let this happen?As opposed to, okay, this happened and I have options.And it's such a snapshot into our society
and how we teach people with uteruses to devalue themselves and only accept or only have responsibility when something is presented as being a mistake or the result of a lack of judgment.
So yeah, I think that's so interesting because I did not have that feeling at all.
So it's very interesting to hear that.
And again, I am so sorry that you ever felt that way because you were also a young woman and in a society where there are certain pressures and expectations put upon you and put upon your body, I'm sorry that you ever felt that you were foolish or had done something
something irresponsible as opposed to something that has just happened biologically for as long as these functions have existed.
Yeah, it was definitely society puts a lot of pressures on you that that that shape your opinions and your feelings and your reactions for sure not all very often not for the best.
And without knowing you at all, I will point out that 17 is really not that much older than 16.No.So the fact that you were a year older and should have known better, I think, is definitely something that we are told to believe.
But 17 is still so young, so young.
Yes, can I say to Stephanie that it feels too as if because such a pressure is put on female bodies in general, and not the power of birth control not being put toward men in such a weight, you know, in that way, that it becomes a biological thing that happens to you.
And obviously, you know, biologically happens to you, but becomes like not the man's own us to also take some credit, blame, you know, like participation in that after the fact.It's like, oh, whoops, we, you know, got pregnant.
And then all of a sudden, it's just like, no, that was you.
Yeah, it's very true, and even the language around that.
Because when people are in a committed relationship, and they are having a child together, and they decide to keep it for whatever reason, whether or not both of them are fully able to consent into that, they say, oh, we're pregnant.
But then the language around an unwanted pregnancy on the part of the male, and frequently we say, oh, well, he has such a bright future ahead of him.It then becomes, oh, you're pregnant.
You're absolutely right, that whole shift in blame and responsibility.And like you said, even down to things like birth control, people with uteruses having to take the pill.
And story after story after story of like, you know, condoms are really the only, you know, male birth control.And yet there's also this understanding that men will frequently pressure their partners into accepting them not wearing one.
And that then becomes just like a little oopsie.And then even after that, it's still the responsibility of the person with the uterus who got pregnant.Because they're like, well, you said that he could be without it.
And it's like, well, you don't know the situation, if that was actually something that they felt that they could fully consent to.
Right.And sometimes it's the margin of error quotient where you're you know, did we use protection?We were too drunk.Or like, did we, you know, did it slip?As in one of my cases, you know, you know, it's not 100% to have a condom solution alone.
And all is all the whatever you call that the percentage of error, you know, the margin of error for any given method, you know, I used to have a diaphragm.And I'd ask for a condom wearing as well.
And definitely for disease control condom all the time, right? So it becomes, you know, like, no, like the condoms slip off.You don't have another one.We're done.
You know, that kind of pressure that goes toward the female to just, oh, let's just keep continuing.You have some sort of birth control.You know, we're not talking about, you know, I could have caught a disease.You could catch one for me.
That discussion doesn't happen, you know, inches away from an orgasm.Right?Yeah.Yeah.Yeah.
None of us are thinking clearly at that moment.
And we shouldn't have to.We should be able to go into these situations being able to be fully vulnerable, right?
Because it is, you know, not to get too woo woo, but it is one of the most powerful creative energy exchanges that you can have with a person.
And so our society, removing the ability to be fully vulnerable in those moments is cutting off one of the most powerful intimacy exchanges you can have with somebody.And then you add on top of it, you know, lack of
aftercare as it were when it comes to you know access to abortion and and even the even feeling safe and being able to make the decision and even being safe and being able to have a reaction to a pregnancy that's not self-blaming because that's also an access right that's also an access that's been taken away from somebody is the ability to actually just exist
in the moment and make the right decisions for themselves in the moment without having shame or blame or regret or whatever tied into it.
Or if it's there, that it's something that's organic as opposed to something that has been imposed upon them based on somebody else's morals and that person's been dead for generations, right?
It reminds me of what we talked about in the virginity episode.
Stephanie, you made a good point about being there to take care of yourself, but we have historically put so much burden for all creatures' sexuality on the woman, so that even in that moment, you are not just responsible for your own sexual experience, but also for his, and responsible for the consequences of his sexual behavior, and even his sexual desire.
Yeah. and to prove that you're worthy of it.Because that's also a part of virginity, but it's also a part of pregnancy.Because for a wanted pregnancy, if you don't get pregnant, it means that you're not worthy.
And if you do get pregnant and they don't want it, that also means you're unworthy.You're always to blame.
Yeah, we get none of the choice and all of the responsibility.Yeah.
Yeah.Yeah. How horrifying.
Great living in patriarchy.It's the best.As a person who has not had a medical abortion, would any of you feel comfortable telling us what that process is like?
I'd be more than happy to talk about mine, because I've only had one abortion and it was a surgical abortion. And so full disclosure, my experience will be also slightly unique in that I have Lyme disease.
And so the experience is going to be different.And because I've had Lyme disease since I was a kid, my reproductive system developed with Lyme disease being a factor.
And also, I wake up in the middle of every single surgery I've ever done because it wasn't until my hysterectomy last year that they figured out that I had red in my hair.
What mine was like, so I was hooked up to an IV because I wanted to be put out because I was already, I think I was 29 at the time.No, no, I wasn't 29.What am I thinking?I was in my 30s.I was 32.That's how old I was.I was 32 years old.
And so they hooked me up to an IV.I had to sit in the waiting room. And so I was the last one of the day.So you go in, you lay down, the doctors are there and they put you under.
Now, I just want to give a trigger warning before I talk about this for anyone with medical trauma, anyone with like a history of rape or sexual assault.I'm just going to pause in case anybody in the room also needs to peace out.
So I woke up in the middle of mine.And, you know, after getting the ultrasound, the IV, everything else, I felt very comfortable with this group of people because I had an incredible medical team.
But I woke up in the middle of it and it was just it was the worst scraping, tearing, pulling feeling I've ever had in my life.Even worse than my gang rape.And
It it just like it was like my whole body was suddenly on fire and I woke up in the middle of it and was very triggering but I had an all-female team and The doctor was like, I'm so sorry.I just have to keep going.
So she just had to keep going while I was awake while the poor oh, I just forgot the word and
Thank you.And while the poor anesthesiologist, who was a very young woman, was literally running around the room scrambling, trying to get me to go back to sleep.And the doctor was incredible.And she was like, OK.
She was like, on the count of three, we're all going to scream together.She was like, I don't want you to hold this in your body.And so she's like, OK, 1, 2, 3.And we all screamed together.Oh, god. Yeah, like I'm getting emotional remembering it.
It was this like beautiful witchy ancient practice and I come from a long line of Scottish witches and so it is that shared screaming, shared grief, shared crying experience that I always crave in those moments and I had that.
And we just kept screaming together until I was finally out, which it took them a while because she was almost done.And then afterwards, again, we did not know I had Lyme disease at this time.We did not know I had adenomyosis at this time.
The aftercare was so painful.Again, it was some of the worst pain I've ever had. I can't take pain medication because of the Lyme disease.
The aftercare, it was just so much blood, which I was accustomed to because I had horrible periods from the adenomyosis, but it was the cramping.It was the cramping that went all the way down to your toes and up into your rib cage.
And it just, I couldn't walk.It was so painful.Oh, man.It was just awful.And part of it, I think, is getting it done when I was older.Part of it is the Lyme disease.Part of it was the adenomyosis.But I didn't regret it.
Like even in the moment, I was like, this is the best thing I ever did for myself as I'm like, clutching myself on the kitchen floor because I like, at one point, my legs just gave out.
Because I stupidly was like, I'm gonna go make myself something to eat.It sounds really scary.And Every surgery is nerve wracking, but I also had a lot of contributing factors into why it was so bad, if that makes sense.
And even with all of that, it was still like, hell yeah, high five, Steph. Way to go, Queen.Way to make those decisions for yourself.Yeah, I don't know if that answers your question of what that experience is like.
I did get mine done at Planned Parenthood, and they, of course, do the thing with the ultrasound.She was like, do you want to see it?
Having been sick my whole life, I'm always fascinated by what the inside of my body looks like, so I'm like, hell yeah. And so she showed me all the pictures and the ultrasounds and everything else.
And she was like, do you want to talk about how you're feeling?I was like, I'm feeling like this is like fucking crazy that this little shitter is causing so many issues and I'm ready to have it out.And she's like, okay, cool.And she high fived me.
Well, my experience was nowhere near as intense as that.That sounds scary and glad that it worked out good for you and that you were able to find happiness and, you know, appreciation for the outcome, despite that experience.
Despite the intensity of the medical experience.Yeah.Carrie, I want to give you a chance to jump in since you had raised your hand earlier.
Oh, God, no, I just, that story was fantastic to listen to in ways that I cannot, I don't know, describe without sounding ghoulish, because it is like the actual medical intensity that people are so afraid of, myself included.
I had more of the medical kind where they give you a pill to prepare your placenta to release, and then they give you a pill to actually expel it, and then they give you antibiotics so you don't get an infection, but they basically, you take
three appointments and the third appointment they finally give you the little pill in a little cup and they say, well, go home and be taken care of.
And I didn't have, like I said, a lot of people around me, but I had a gal with me because I was staying at her flat in the city and it was like,
Okay, well here I wonder how I want to see it was Sophocles who took the hemlock and killed himself I was like, how do you feel between gulping the pill down and An hour or two later when they expect a train to roll over top of you That was the interesting part for me was like, well, I'm expecting something to happen.
It's gonna be pretty significant and um, yeah, it was it was super painful and I I had not had the complications that you had, Stephanie.
I'd always had good periods and most okayness, except I've had an ovarian cyst rupture, and that was very close to this feeling.And so, you know, I don't know.I'd had migraine headaches my whole life.
I was like, yeah, what are you going to do to me, right?And then I was like, oh, this sucks. And it sucks in that way of like, yeah, I do.You're kind of rocking yourself going like, oh, holy God.And the whole time I did not regret it as a procedure.
I didn't regret it as a choice.But my friend, this is what I'm trying to get at, in that apartment was super triggered by that that I was going through.Reluctantly was ready to sort of be there for me because
They didn't have that much of a choice that moment, but said, yes, anyway, yeah, come on, come on to town.I know what you gotta do.And I says, oh, thank you so much.
I was sleeping on the floor and I had 102 fever and I was still going through this because it's the only chance I had before things got, you know, much more severe.I was at four to six weeks pregnant by that time, probably more close to four.
And I just said, let's get this, let's get this done, you know.But my friend, You know, pick me up off the floor and it's like, are you okay?And I understand.And I could tell by the way she said, I understand.
Um, something, she knew something about it and I won't project and say that she maybe has had her own abortion cause she didn't admit that at all.But I think there was something close to just being triggered.
And then the next morning she was like, you gotta leave.And so I was bleeding and, chilled and losing too much blood and not eating enough.
And I had to then leave the city, get on a bus and go to a different place and find a place to live while I had just gone through this.So my difficulty was more the circumstances, which had more to do with triggering other people.
And again, having to be responsible for my very being and my very welcome in a, in a, in a house or a place because it was triggering to the host.
I'm so sorry.That's awful.
It's amazing how people can turn things to themselves, no matter what is happening around them, and just be so unsupportive and cruel.Sorry.
Yeah.And we don't even teach each other how to create community around that kind of experience.I am so sorry you went through that.
I'm also so sorry that your flatmate went through that and that there was clearly something that had happened to them that forced them to be completely unable to provide a safe space for you and then cause trauma to you for you not to have a safe space while going through that horrible pain.
Yeah.Yeah.It was.Thank you very much for that. I have a contrasting story to that that's a little briefer.
I went to the place that I love to be, and I found a flatmate off of Gumtree, like the Craigslist, and I went into a situation where this complete stranger and a male person, I was acting weird, and that person was finally just, are you okay, and whatever, and I finally just decided to try to trust somebody and say it out loud.
Melissa was like, two days later.And I looked over and I said, well, I just had an abortion in London, so I don't know how I'm supposed to behave.And he just immediately softened and he goes, oh, why didn't you say so?
I wouldn't have said this and I wouldn't have said that.OK, no problem.And then he started buying me food and becoming that person that was bringing a safe space to me.And he was the host in the next apartment.So it was really interesting how
going from this contrast of this person I've already trusted who was triggered and then to this European person who was just like, oh, just an abortion?No biggie, except let's take care of you.
Oh, okay.I was going to say that's a very Scottish response.
Oh, but the Scottish women on the bus were so great.They were a pair of Scottish women on this bus I took from the first city and it was like, oh, you look
positively blue.Is it too cold?Is the air conditioning in the bus too cold?And they were like, get some sandwich meat, darling.
Yeah, that's very Scottish.
Oh, my goodness, Tracy, do you mind talking about the actual sort of the experience of the medical procedure itself?
Yeah, it was fairly mild.I mean, definitely a significant discomfort and significant discomfort for a couple of days after, but nothing compared to what we've heard here.Luckily, I was very regular.So it was early in the first trimester both times.
So it was a D&C process.And there's definitely discomfort and pain, but it was, both times it went very smoothly, very, you know, no, no big event, no big trauma.And, uh, within two days I was feeling pretty normal.
Um, I think that's the benefits of youth as well, right?Being 16 and 17, your body can handle a lot of things, um, that are much harder later on.
Did you have, um, did you have support from your family?
I did not tell my family.My mom is very Catholic, although I think she probably would have understood.But I didn't want to put that on her.
You're a much more private person.Yeah.And so, I mean, I didn't even know about the second one.And we were living together at the time.And because you're very good at kind of creating a safe space for yourself.And absolutely, I respect that.
Well, and that was because I was embarrassed of the second one.That's why it took a while to tell you about it.
I'm still so sad that you would feel that way.As Stephanie mentioned earlier, it's a shame that you were put in a position because of our culture, because of society, because of the way people are, that you ever had to feel that way.
I noticed that you weren't even given the option to be put asleep during your medical procedure the first time.I don't know about the second time, but you were required to be awake for the entire procedure.
Well, I think it was because it was so early.It was fairly simple and fairly quick, as you will remember. recall either time being offered the opportunity to be put to sleep, but I don't think I would have taken it anyhow.
But I think being so early, I think it is a much simpler process.So I think the procedure was just not as intense.
It could be after my pregnancy, I had to get the same surgery at DNC because there was part of the placenta still stuck to me.And that was a one month after labor.So I guess, again, it would be similarly early.
But they put me directly to sleep because I guess a mother of a newborn is somehow sacred and precious and has to be treated very specially, as opposed to a pregnant teenage girl who deserves to feel it all.
But yeah, I'm glad that I was asleep for mine.And the one thing I remember about yours is how incredibly loud it was.It was such a loud procedure.It was kind of traumatizing just to be in the room.
But also, yeah, you had just given birth.So your body had already been through quite a lot and probably didn't need to do this anymore.
I don't deserve any special... Yeah, I'm built to do that.I don't deserve any special treatment for that.
The only thing I can offer, and this, I don't know, maybe I'm being a conspiracy theorist, but when I Right before my hysterectomy, I had to get a uterine biopsy because they were worried that there may be cancer cells inside the uterus.
So they did this uterine biopsy, which involves them sticking a little scoop inside me and just taking out pieces of the uterine wall.And they did it entirely without any sort of anesthesia.
And it was the 30 most painful seconds I can remember in my life. And I think about the fact that they don't really, the medical institution as a whole does not really concern themselves with women's pain too much.And no, no.
And I would imagine that a procedure like an abortion, which is already so very charged with all kinds of overtones of shame and blame and all that sort of thing,
I really wonder how much work has been done to make that procedure as pain-free as possible.
Oh, I can tell you.Niente.Yeah.Nothing added.Zero.Zero.Nothing.
Yeah.I also had to get a uterine biopsy, and they also had to collect uterine fluid.It's horrible.Horrible.Yeah. It was very similar to my abortion.Yeah.
I had a cone biopsy once, which sounds a lot simpler than what you ladies have been through.And it was horrific.And yet they didn't even put a topical anesthetic on.
Yeah.What would have been the harm of just spraying a little topical anesthesia in there? Yeah, seriously.Nope.Just breathe through it, ladies.Breathe through it.Ooh, y'all.
Ooh.What I thought was crazy with my abortion was that they didn't use localized anesthetics when they were doing it.They just did the general anesthetic.And they were like, that's good.And they didn't believe me when I said, listen, I wake up.
So you may want to do both.And they were like, nah, nah, nah.
Nah, it'll be fine.You don't know your own body.It'll be fine.
And this is a group of women.
That's the thing.Even female doctors have been trained by the patriarchy and believe the mythology of women's bodies, even though intellectually and physically, they should know better.They still cling to that.
So that my cone biopsy was done by a female doctor.Some of the worst surgical experience I've had have been done by female doctors who should have known better.
Yeah, yeah.But you know, the standards of achievement are set by the male dominated industry.
So regardless of whether you're, you know, regardless of your gender, you are meeting, you have to meet those standards in order to be considered a good doctor.
Yeah.So may I give a shout out to my parents for a moment?And can we talk about what the experience of abortion is when you are actually raised with having no shame around it.
All right.Because I know what that reality looks like because I grew up with it.So I grew up with fiercely pro-choice parents, fiercely pro-choice.I went to pro-choice rallies as a baby, like while my mother was pregnant with me.
It is something that I was raised to be very active about was a person's right to choose and that people with uteruses should have bodily autonomy, that everybody should have bodily autonomy, but the discussion of course is around women and people with uteruses.
And so I grew up just surrounded by fierce pro-choice feminists.And I was also lucky enough to be, you know, in high school, a human shield for an abortion clinic for when people are walking up.
And I knew I was trained in how to deal with counter or to deal with protesters. and also to deal with counter protesters at rallies that we went to.
I wound up becoming a youth board member for the racing branch of the National Organization for Women because I was so involved in this.And I was also going to a Catholic high school at the time.Oh my goodness.Yeah.It went over so well.
It went over so well. And my parents made it very clear to us that if we got pregnant, it wasn't a big deal.And that if we wanted to get an abortion, they
ever since we were babies had a savings account set up where they would put money into it every paycheck so that if abortion became illegal or accessibility to a safe abortion was impossible they could fly us to the UK or to Europe to get an abortion and we'd have enough money for the procedure
if it costs anything, which over there, you know, doesn't because socialized healthcare systems are great.Um, and also pay for accommodation for as long as we needed for aftercare and all the medications.
So they, they so fully completely believed in this.And so we knew that.And when we became sexually active, there was no shame around it.And it was like, be safe, take care of your body.Don't let anyone pressure you.
Of course, that didn't work for me because You know, I was in a very abusive relationship at the time.And they were like, if you get pregnant, you have options.And we support you, whatever you want to do.And so I was always armed with this.
I, of course, was careful.I tried to take care of my body as best as I could.I am a rape survivor multiple times over.But when I did finally need an abortion, It was that situation where I was in a committed relationship.
It happened right before my husband and I were going to get married.And I had been sick for months, months.And we didn't know why.And I wasn't getting my period.
But my period, because of the adenomyosis, was so finicky that if I took vitamins, it would stop for a couple months.
So again because the Lyme disease because the the Lyme disease had so taxed my body that like things just didn't function how they were supposed to So I didn't know I was pregnant.
I just knew I was Horrendously ill and then it finally dawned on me one day and I took a test I thought I was pregnant and I turned to him and I said I'm getting an abortion and he's like, okay.I
And I called my parents and I was like, hey, mom, dad, I'm getting an abortion.My parents were like, good for you.We're so proud of you making those choices for yourself.And I was like, thanks.And they're like, do you want us to pay for it?
And my partner said, no, I want to pay for it.So I let my partner pay for it.
But my parents calculated how much an abortion cost and then donated multiple times what that was to the clinic where I was getting my abortion so that other people could have theirs for free.
Wow. incredibly fortunate to have grown up with that kind of fierceness around this issue because I didn't feel shame, I didn't feel fear, I didn't feel guilt, I didn't feel anything.
It was just like the grass is green, the sky is blue, and I have to get an abortion.And high-fiving myself along the way of being like, fuck yeah, queen, show up for yourself.Fuck yeah, make these good decisions.Fuck yeah, you did this.Hell yeah.
I was also able to carry that energy into the waiting room because I was the oldest person in that waiting room by years. by decades in some cases and they were these young scared women.
One young woman was in her 20s and she wasn't going to be put out and she had driven herself there and she was going to drive herself home and she said, I remember a nurse came in, it's like burning my brain and she was like, I'll be okay to drive myself home, right?
And then I can like go to work tomorrow. And the nurse was like, uh, I don't know.And so I went over and I was like, listen, I will pay for your Uber.
I will give you money for the Uber to come back the next day or however long you need to leave your car here.I will give you money so that you don't do this or we can drive you where you need to go."
And she was like, oh, oh no, I don't want to be a bother.I was like, no.I said, it's going to be more of a bother for you if you don't accept this.So I did.I gave her money.I paid for her Uber because it was just so horrifying.
And there were other young women in there.They didn't let any men in the back. And they were smart to do so, because there was a part of me that was like, oh, I really want my partner with me.
But it was smart, because a lot of these young women came with very abusive partners.And two of the young women were talking about how they were afraid.
I'm going to pause here in case anyone needs to take space, because I will be discussing potential sexual violence.There were two young women talking about how they were afraid.
of how they were going to keep their partners off of them after the abortion.And they were like, this is already so embarrassing.I'm already so humiliated.I don't know even how I'm going to tell my mom.I'm going to go to hell.
All this stuff, all this talk.They were just hyping each other up, and maybe the nosy bitch I am, I went over and I said, listen, do you need for me to call someone for you?I said, because this is unacceptable.
You should never have to feel pressured into having sex with your partner.I was like, your body is sacred to you and you only.
I said, there is no God in existence who should ever judge you for anything that you do, especially if it's something that you weren't able to fully consent into. And I wound up just being big sister to these girls for a while.
And some of the other young women joined in as well.And we just became like this love circle.
And I went to one of the nurses and I said, the young woman wants for you to call her mother because she's in an abusive situation and her partner's in the waiting room.And I did this with the young woman's permission.
And so the nurses were well-trained because they see this all the time.They were well-trained of how to handle it.
And they were able to remove the young man and they called the young woman's mom and she came and they let her in the back and the two of them had this really beautiful talk and cry with all of us there to support them.
And we had this big ass hug circle. I remember thinking to myself, dear God, if I hadn't fucking been here, if they had had an older woman who grew up without any shame or fear around this, what kind of situation would these girls have been in?
Because they were girls.They were teenagers. And it's just so horrifying to me.
Every single time I hear about these things or I find myself in situations where people are talking to me about their experiences or I'm in the experience that I was in, because I know what it looks like to grow up
I know what it feels like to grow up in a situation where there is no shame or fear, and it's beautiful.It's what we should all have.
Amen to that.Karen, Gwen, and Tracy, do you have any thoughts on that?
I was just going to say, those girls were very lucky to have you there, and I think that was very, very fortunate for them that they got that kind of support and direction and guidance.
Makes you wonder if we should all be volunteering some of our time down at some of these places to help these young women out.
Yeah, it's also an age thing that as we grow older, we do learn painfully sometimes, but we do learn that we get to ask for things for ourselves.
And very young women, even if they come from the best backgrounds possible, the world around them is telling them that that's not acceptable.So intergenerational relationships between women in our society need to be fostered for so many reasons.
And this is just one of them.
Word. Absolutely.We have a shortage of that, of women acting as mentors to other women, of women having relationships with each other at all.
Yeah.Yeah.But Carrie, I wanted to give you space to, uh, to respond to what Stephanie was saying.
Well, just big time props to, um, being able to, Stephanie being able to like intake the support that you got to be able to digest that, get through the things you've said you've gotten through.
I just want to be able to just sit here and witness you for a second because it just sounds like a humongous facility for healing that you are.That just gives me heart.
Thank you.That's really nice.
I do feel, though, with that background and with the things that I've experienced through myself and secondhand through friends, I do feel that it is my place when I'm in situations like that to step up and say something.
And part of that is the, you know, being a multi-generational witch, right, where we're taught that we're the heart center.
Part of it is definitely as I get older, there's the feeling of nurturing and responsibility and creating space for the people around me.But I also think it's being a Neuro Spicy Aries where it's like, why the fuck wouldn't I?
I'm always the person who speaks up.I'm the Debbie Downer of the group where everyone's like, just don't say anything.
We're definitely two of a kind.
But we do, we do like we were saying, Tracy, that's an interesting, that's an interesting, like, actionable thing moving forward for us, right?Because, you know, doing the podcast is certainly part of that.
intergenerational community building and mentorship and sacred space building.That is one of the most important parts of matriarchy that just got so cut out, especially with the doubling down of rugged individualism.
It's isolating people from each other.It's othering the generations, right?Because how many times are generations at war with each other?And in situations like this with abortion, that should be something that is not emotionally charged.
And it's okay that people have an emotionally charged reaction. Like that's not the problem.The problem is the society that creates the environment in which somebody has an emotionally charged reaction.
But for something that should be far more accepted and where people should be allowed to have real reactions instead of the reactions that are imposed upon them.
Which, of course, doesn't allow for true healing of the event itself because then you have to separate societal reactions versus your own personal feelings around it.
Yeah, like how do we figure out how to create those intergenerational relationships? You know, I, I mentor 12 year olds with writing, but they're 12 year olds who are going through stuff.
And so they're selected for this program because they're processing things.
And, and I've tried to figure out in that space, how can I be a space where they feel that they can talk about these things in a way that's also being understanding of their religious background, their cultural background, you know,
their age, although I think that we can talk about this stuff at any age and the idea that, you know, we're imposing, oh, they're too young to talk about it is part of the problem.
Well, I think part of the reason that the genesis for this series being about Martha on the podcast is because not only with abortion, but with pretty much everything having to do with the sort of events that can happen to women's bodies.
We, we think of that as a shameful thing, and as a society we don't want to discuss that kind of thing out in the open.I mean I think of even like commercials for menstruation products.
the liquid that they pour on the maxi pads to show you how good they absorb is blue.Because God forbid, we should for a moment have to be reminded that women bleed down there.
A couple of years ago, one of the companies, and I wish I could remember which one it was, was pouring red liquid for the first time.And I jumped up and yelled and applauded the TV.I was so excited to see red liquid on a maxi pad.
On a maxi pad in public.Yeah.Yeah.I mean, so many things about women's bodies are considered dirty and shameful and shouldn't be talked about in public.And that materially impacts our health.
and our understanding of our own bodies, and our ability to recognize when something is wrong, because we don't know the way it's supposed to be.We don't get to talk about that.
I mean, they say that it takes, what, seven doctor's visits before women are diagnosed with, oh, and now, of course, the name of it just flew right out of my head.Endometriosis, there you go.
you know, how long did you suffer, Stephanie, with dentamiosis before you were actually diagnosed?
Yeah, I was 42.Yeah.My first period put me in the hospital.
And you know, the answer you get is, well, you know, some some women just bleed heavier than others.
Yeah, we Yeah, this is the systems inside the bodies of people with uteruses are the reason the human race can continue.And yet we have so little interest in really understanding those processes.
I don't know if I've ever said this in a group here before, but there's a neurological difference between men's pain and women's pain.
And I'm going to shortcut that and say there is a biological switch that women can turn on to buffer the pain that we feel. And men don't have that.Biological males don't have that.
So when you have men complaining about their complaints as well, louder and harder and more directly, because they feel it and they just they have no buffer and they're just like, well, you know. This hurts.
Of course, the doctors listen to them because they're men.When we say we have pain, they don't listen to us at all.They don't believe it because there's this sort of maybe sense that women don't complain as much about pain.Am I wrong?
What's what's what's your take on that, everybody?
I I was I was going through kidney failure because of a severed ureter during a botched surgery, and it took them six weeks.I almost lost my kidney. to diagnose the fact that I had lost my ureter and that my kidney was in failure.
And when they finally got it during the entire process, they were kind of rolling their eyes at me and saying, well, some women just don't or not women.Some people just don't handle the pain of surgery very well.
By the time they got a urologist involved and got the right test and finally found out that I was in fact completely in kidney failure with a severed ureter, his response was, Oh, well, you didn't, that would be really painful.
A man would have been screaming in the, you know, in the emergency room with that, that's why we didn't diagnose you, you weren't showing enough pain.
Like a man wouldn't have had to have been screaming, he would have just had to have said the words, I'm in pain, and you would have run all the tests.Yes, yeah.And so I'm, I, that still sticks.I'm still really actively angry about that.
And it's been 12 years.Understandably so.
Yeah, exactly.Exactly.Yeah.Well, Do we have any thoughts left unsaid about this topic?Anyone want to add any thoughts to the discussion?
Burn down the patriarchy.
Yes, that too.That too.Go for it, Carrie.
I have just sort of a buffering spiritually moment for myself when I was deciding to have an abortion was very much in the psychic realms and the energies that I feel in that psychic metaphysics.
And part of my decision-making was to go into the spirit world and ask, is there a soul in my body or not, before I made the decision.And I got the answer from my guides and so on that there wasn't.
And so that was when I said, OK, let me do an incantation and make sure that that soul does not come.And trust me, because I'm going to have an abortion. disavowing ceremony.
And I feel like that did the trick for anything I might have felt about the decision because I had to close the door.Because for me, there were a lot of factors and a lot of decision making, it was really convoluted.
And then it was like, Oh, is there somebody actually here that I'm going to be getting rid of?Or can I just close the door so they don't come in?
But it was really, I just want to throw that in for some reason that the decision making process is fascinating to me. There were several different ways to make that decision.I'd be interested to hear anybody else's decision making, like nuggets.
That was incredible.Thank you so much for sharing that, Carrie.Thank you.
It's really beautiful that you open that space for yourself, but also open that space to your guides for you to be able to hear and have it validated what was the right decision for you.It's really rad.
It's nice.Nice.Yeah.Yeah.And, um, Tracy, do you have any final thoughts?
No, I just appreciate you guys including me in this.I think it was very interesting conversation.I learned a ton and I think hopefully it will be helpful to, to others who are, to see this choice as a more honest and natural one.
Thank you.Thank you all for coming. sharing your stories and sharing your thoughts.
Just, you know, my my closing thoughts, I guess would be that just like each of these three women made up their minds in their own way, and did this procedure in the way that was best for their lives, and for their circumstances.
they made the best choices they had available to them at the time, that that needs to be something that women have access to and are allowed to do for themselves.
And any system of government or organized religion that tries to get in the way of that is doing damage to women. and I cannot stress hard enough, should not be acceptable.
I want to thank everyone for coming in and being willing to be so honest with your experience, both physically, emotionally, psychically.
I think everybody, this topic needs to stop being a forbidden hidden topic, because the less we talk about it, the more power it has to be some kind of grand, huge event and some big, forbidden, scary topic.
And it shouldn't be any more scary than going to the dentist and getting a tooth pulled.And we need to have more discussions like this.So I really appreciate you guys being willing to come in and have this conversation.
Some of you don't even know each other. and yet you've been so beautifully honest and open.So thank you very much.
You're welcome.Yes.Yes.Thank you so much.Thank you for having us.Absolutely.And thank you, Kimberly.
Absolutely.Thank you, everyone.This has been the 34 Circe Salon Make Matriarchy Great Again.Thanks for listening.We'll see you next time.Take care, everyone, and blessed be.
34 Circe Salon -- Make Matriarchy Great Again -- Disrupting History
