Hey, welcome to caching in the Northwest.You know, this is the podcast from the birthplace of geocaching right here in the great Pacific Northwest.Now it's Thursday at 9 p.m.Pacific, and they call me Chris of the Northwest.
And we're going to talk about geocaches and geocachers from here all around the globe.So while you're digging out the cold weather jackets, we'll be caching in the Northwest.
Absolutely.It's no longer summer, is it?Tonight we're talking about what makes for a good Puzzle Cash with our special guest Fizzy Magic.So welcome to the podcast.
Thank you very much.I'm very grateful to be on.Yeah.
Or do you prefer Mr. Magic?
No, actually, I do.I actually, believe it or not, I respond to Fizzy.They'll call me Fizzy around here.So you can use that if you want.
Okay, I think we'll do that.So dear listener, did you know that according to most geocaching communities, puzzle caches only make up about 10 to 20% of all geocache finds?Is that true for your profile? Give us your feedback listeners.
Let me know, uh, let us all know what you think and what you talk about and what you think makes great puzzle caches and stay tuned to find out all those great details from Fizzy.
But of course we can't jump into anything until we bring in our game guessing gorilla.Some say he is as offbeat as a one armed drummer.And others say he believes drums are weapons of mass percussion.All we know is he's called a land monkey.
Oh, that's pretty good.Nice Def Leppard reference there.All right.Yeah, I think he had a pretty good beat.And you just go to the beat of your own drum.
I march to that all the time.All right.Well, hey, good to be here Thursday
Evening with with all my friends and all our awesome friends in the chat So folks looking forward to hearing from you as we go through the cast tonight But before we get any of that started off a quick reminder that we appreciate the support of our patrons All of you who help to keep this podcast coming each and every week.
Thanks to land sharks one of our corporate Denali level sponsors and Our other corporate level sponsor.Well, that would be cashly
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How awesome is that?Find Cachely in the iOS App Store or hey, just go over to cachely.com and tell them a monkey sent you.It's not going to do anything, but I just want to see what happens.The monkey who?Exactly.All right.
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I have that set up already.
Oh, but hey, here on this podcast, you can use the hashtag puzzle doesn't cost you anything.And if you use that in the chat, we know you want to ask a question to fizzy magic.So go ahead and use hashtag puzzle.
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Hey, our chat's already blowing up with people that are good at math.I know.Yeah, Brylang says he's found, what, 3,261 unknown caches, which is 11.46% of his total finds.That's impressive.Yeah, cache and cance of 6.94% at 332.Just under 16%.
That's impressive. It is.It's good.
We also got, uh, Seebeck tribe at 4.29.Um, Megan, I just saw her caching name and it suddenly left me now when I saw her real name.Yes.5% for her green words.Yep.Green words at 10.8%.
I, Hey guys, I don't want to burst the bubble about how good our audience is at math, but, um, the, the percent is right there in your stats.
Yeah.So us land monkeys, uh, 11.66%.Unknown.
You did that math so quick in your head.
I figured as soon as I said the percentage, you guys would know, okay, it must actually be in the stats.Cause there's no way he's that smart.
I don't even know where the stats are anymore.
There, there's Megan's RF upar 88.Um, she just called in a voicemail this week.So yeah, I guess you call in a voicemail.Yeah.I had to say that.Right.I had to hear back to know if it was right.We'll play that next week.
All right, well, they just keep coming in there.We're just loving their layout landmark.He gave away the secrets as he does.
Heather.Oh, I thought Heather was 562%.That's what I saw.It's 5629.7%.Okay, definitely wins.Yeah.I don't know.Look at Keats here.
Oh, there you go.16,619.41 percent.Okay, well.You guys are silly.Okay, that was silly. People have done a lot of puzzle caches.Yes, which is good.
Yeah, and it's especially good to talk about tonight because, as we mentioned, we've got a puzzle specialist.So Fizzy, welcome officially again to the podcast.
And I'm just thinking, OK, a lot of people in the chat know who you are, but maybe some of the listeners on the audio portion or maybe even the video, maybe they haven't met you before.
So could you give us a little quick intro like, you know, where's home for you, how you got started caching and all that kind of fun stuff?
Yeah, sure.Thanks for having me on again.I'm an old time cacher.I first started caching in March of 2002.That makes me older than most people, but not really one of the graybeards.
I live in Livermore, California, which is sort of in the San Francisco Bay Area.I'm a physicist.I worked at the lab, and I'm retired the last five years or so.I've worked part-time.
There's a lab in Livermore where we create weapons of mass destruction.That's apparently our job.I didn't do that. That's what it's known for.And anyway, I've been geocaching for a long time.
I was around in the early days of geocaching before there were any statistics on your profile or anything.
And so I built a bunch of tools that people used back in the old days to do statistics and to do things like projections and things like that before the They were as popular as they are today.
So I have a challenge named after me, which we can get into if you want or not, it's either way.But there's a if you've seen the fizzy challenge that I didn't invent it, I just invented the statistics that it's based.And so yeah, oh, fizzy calc.
Yeah, that's a program I worked for Windows quite a while.And
I originally called the geocalc and I was threatened with a lawsuit by a company that makes a program that's called geocalc So I changed it to fizzy calc thinking nobody in the world would name a program something as ridiculous as fizzy calc And so the cola companies came after you I know right there is actually a company that sells a product called fizzy magic which it turns out is a bath bomb, so it's a
Slightly embarrassing, but that's destruction.Yes, right.That's right.And I've done a lot of puzzle caches.My percentage is 45.9% I have been I have I have for several years now.
I have had more non traditionals than traditional I find and That's because I enjoy them because after the first 10 or 15 years of finding geocaches finding yet another
pill bottle thrown into a bush gets a little bit on the dull side and so Puzzle caches give you something to do and the other thing I discovered they let you do is they let you work on Caching when you're when it's raining outside and you can't go out searching you can dream about your next geocaching expedition by solving puzzles and the area that you're heading to so anyway, that's sort of my bio quick and my take on puzzle caching
I love it.Well, when you mentioned labs and weapons of mass destruction, I sit here a stone's throw from Hanford and PNNL.So there's a whole nother homage to that.
PNNL are some of our best buddies.Wink, wink.Yes.All right.
Well, hey, let's flip back to geocaching.Let's look at caches.Yeah, Keats tuned in earlier, so he didn't come in on a scary note.
But hey, we're here to talk about puzzle caches, and I'm definitely getting the vibe that you know a thing or two about the puzzle.
Now, before we roll up our sleeves and get into the nitty gritty of them, maybe it'd be helpful to make sure we're all on the same page.Can you give what you would define as what one would reference as a puzzle cache?
Yeah, so that's actually an interesting question.A puzzle cache is one where you don't get the coordinates given to you on the cache page.You have to solve something to find them.
And I mean, technically speaking, maybe a multi-cache is like that because you don't have the final coordinates given to you.
But the idea with a multi-cache is that it's a very straightforward matter of just following breadcrumbs until you find the final.
But for a puzzle cache, you really have very little information about where the final is except for that they've made a rule in like, I think, 2007 that has to be within two miles of the posted coordinates, and that's about it.
So there are all kinds of different puzzles that people make that people have to solve in order to in order to solve the pass.
There are a few puzzle caches that probably ought to be traditional caches with field puzzle attributes, where you have to, at the location of the cache, solve some sort of puzzle.
And I don't really include those when I talk about puzzle caches, even though some of them are assigned the mystery type.
Okay, so field puzzles we're not talking about tonight.We're talking about You have to figure something out to get the coordinate.
That's right.That's really what I'm going to focus on.I love field puzzles.Don't get me wrong.I'm just not going to talk about them tonight.
Good.Neither am I. So there.
That works.Well, we might have to bring you back for another show then to talk about field puzzles.There you go.Okay. But so, okay, that's very helpful to narrow down what we're talking about tonight.
So, um, I did have the opportunity to listen to you talk about this at the last Geo Woodstock.I sat down there, listened to the whole presentation, loved it, and then had to track you down and say, you know what?We need to talk.
We need to have you on this podcast to give a, uh, you know, a speech like that.But, uh, we can be a little more interactive here on the podcast, which I think is more fun.
That's good.Well, I am famously, uh, very opinionated.So, uh before we go any further Let me say everything i'm going to say tonight is my opinion and if you don't agree with me tough luck I like the way you roll
Now, I know I approach puzzle caches with a little trepidation, right?Am I smart enough to figure out what the cache owner, the puzzle generator came up with?Am I smart enough to figure that out and get a set of coordinates?
And I think I'm not alone in that.
I think a lot of people are afraid that if they try a puzzle cache and they fail at it or they have to ask for help, that means that they're dumb or something.And that couldn't be further from my point of view than I can imagine.
I really think that a puzzle cache that makes you just feel dumb is not a good puzzle cache.
If it in if you do feel dumb and the person who hit it isn't willing to help you then that's a really a big problem and so I'm on a campaign of some sorts these days to try and get people to make puzzle caches that are a little more
Approachable and not so much don't feel so much like there's some sort of a competition between the hider and the solver to see who's smarter because that that Mentality I think is harmful to geocaching and it's also harmful to puzzles that happens in some regions a you get like yeah an arms race of puzzles go on and
Yes, yes, and it happened in my region in the early days.I've been guilty of it myself.I'm guilty of everything I say is not a good idea tonight.I have done it one way or another.
That's right.You've learned.That's right.So back in about 2004, there was a guy who lived in San Jose who thought that he was just the smartest thing ever.And he came up with a puzzle cache that effectively impossible to solve.And so, uh,
Some guys in my area invented the idea of battleship being a puzzle which is where you start hiding traditional caches in such a way that eventually one will get rejected because of it.So we can figure out where this was.
This was even before the two mile limit.And so the guy had done a two mile limit and It turned out in the end that he'd actually not even hidden a container.He made an impossible puzzle that he could feel good about.
And then didn't even bother hiding the container because nobody could solve it.So that, yes.So that's happened in my area and you know, being near Silicon Valley, there are a lot of people who are very smart and sometimes they a little overboard.
All right.Well, hey, I ain't afraid of no cache.And I can feel dumb even without puzzle caches involved.
But since we want to make good puzzles and people can solve and all, do you have a set of core guidelines that you use that really defines what a good puzzle cache is?Can you share anything about those kind
Yeah, actually, so I thought about that this afternoon, and I looked back at the presentation I gave at Geo Woodstock, and I realized that there are four main things that you can do to make a, if you want to create a puzzle, and there are also four main ways that you can decide whether something, your puzzle is worth solving or not, I guess.
It's also, and the first one, and the most important is that the puzzle cache has to be fun to solve. Some people think that the only fun part of the puzzle should be after you've solved it.
The feeling of satisfaction you get from having solved the difficult puzzle.But in my opinion, a good puzzle is one that you're having fun while you're solving it.Number two was you follow some sort of interesting theme.
So there's some theme that ties everything together.The third thing that makes a great puzzle cache is something original. or clever, and ideally the solver learns something new.
And then my fourth guideline I have is, you know, have the puzzle cache well tested beforehand and avoid some of the major pitfalls that I may talk about in a little bit.So those are my four general things.
Well, Seaback Tribe says, I used to avoid puzzle caches for many years, but in the last several years, I'm willing to look and attempt solving.My knowledge for solving them has grown.
That's great.That's fantastic.Yes, you learn by doing and Most of the people that I know that hide puzzle caches are willing to help you get through a puzzle that they made and help guide you through.
My point is you should never hesitate to contact a puzzle owner saying, I really want to do this puzzle.I can't figure out even how to get started.Can you give me some sort of a clue?
90% of the people who've created Puzzle Caches out there will be very happy to give you help.Yeah, I see Cliff Slaughterbeck there saying, I always give help to anyone who asks.
Yes, everyone I know is willing to give people help because it's not a competition.It's really, as a creator, you're doing something to give people fun.Exactly.
That's the main thing.And if it's not fun, and there are little things that make them less fun, I've learned a lot of those things not to do by doing them improperly over the years.
And listening to people's feedback and trying to make something better is great.
Limex says, I have a lot of satisfaction solving early fizzy puzzles.
Yeah, that's right.Limex has one near me, so he.
I was going to say, another Livermore resident.
Yes, he has experienced some of my early failures.The big problem with old caches that have been around a long time is even if they suck as puzzles, people start wanting them because they're old.And so you can't archive them.
There are a couple around that I'm slightly embarrassed about, but I can't seem to get rid of them.
There's a good point on the whole idea of helping people from cashing cans.This is the same way I approach my puzzle caches.I absolutely always give help after the FTF.
I don't want to give anybody an unfair advantage on the FTF, but once that's gone, then yeah.I've actually done, like at events, sit down and just work through them.I hear what you're saying, Fizzy.
You want people to find I want I want to I generally want a puzzle that they at least in my area The FTF takes no more than so it's not like people be waiting around for months to get help from me I've seen puzzles that are still unsolved after multiple years and I I
Kind of don't get it because you've made the puzzle for people to enjoy and now people been working out for two years and nobody Solved it.What's where's the joy there, right?Right.
So yes, I'm I'm I usually don't I I'm lucky in that most of my puzzles get FTF before I have a chance You know to deny anyone help.But yes, I think I would probably agree with that position
just carlo tossed in i avoided puzzles too but then doramore invited me to check out a puzzle group and it's been really encouraging so yeah i would i would i would totally uh recommend creating or forming a puzzle group in your area i was telling the guys before we started that my area we have a an event every week where there's a new puzzle at the event everybody solves it together
Everybody helps everybody else and then we all go out as a group and do first to find on the puzzle.Except of course the person who created the puzzle and we've been doing it now for over a year.Limex comes every week.
That's why your unknown cache type is so high.You're finding one a week.
Well, no, because about half of them have been mine. Yes, I've been hiding I've been hiding I've been hiding one every roughly every two weeks.
That's right Yeah, I've and the problem is of course I've solved so many more than I found I think I've solved something around 20,000 puzzles and I've only found 6,000 6,300 it's not there and there are a lot in the Bay Area that I haven't found that I've solved but I haven't found.
OK, so when you say it should be fun to solve, what do you mean?What a great question.So fun to solve means a bunch of things.And there are people who've actually written essays and books about making good puzzles.
And some of the puzzle types that have persisted have persisted because they have these these qualities.So one of the qualities is that you know what to do to start.
You may not know how to finish, but there's something that you can work on when you see the puzzle that gets you starting to work.
The second thing is that you have progress that you make during the solving of the puzzle where you can tell that you're making progress.And frequently that also helps you know that you're on the right track for the puzzle.
But there has to be some sort of... So a puzzle that is just one aha moment and then you're done is a little bit deflating because you don't have a chance to keep kind of making progress and seeing your progress as you go forward.
And the last piece is that, you know, you should learn something or have maybe found something during the solving that's new to you and that has engaged your brain in a fun way. So there are a lot of things.
This is why I think crossword puzzles have persisted and people enjoy doing crossword puzzles.I think people enjoy doing word search puzzles.That's another puzzle type that you can find that has been around for hundreds of years that people enjoy.
Those puzzles, if you think about them, have those properties that you know where to start and you get some feedback that you're doing the right thing as you go along. So those are good things to try and build into puzzles.
If you do that and be original and clever at the same time, wow, that's a huge win.
There you go.Well, let's talk about your suggestion number 2 as well, following a theme.Can you share with us a little bit more about what you mean there?
Yeah, so the theme doesn't have to be a subject matter theme.The theme can be a, maybe I can explain this best by giving you an example of something that a friend did recently.
A friend did a word puzzle where you had to find words that were inside other words.So you use the two outer letters on either end made one word and the middle four letters made another word and then you put those all together.
You went through a series of these and it was fun.At the end, you ended up with another word that had the same property as all the words that you've been trying to find all along with the two words on the outside and one in the middle.
Then that was the solution that you would then give to certitude for the thing.The point is that that theme of what you were doing with the words all along, was carried through the puzzle and even done again at the end.
He and I also made a series of puzzles that we called the recursive puzzles.So we said re-curse of the whatever.And that's the same thing where you keep recursively doing the same thing again.Yeah.Okay.I love the wordplay.That was awesome.
Yes, that's right.Yeah, I did one called recurse of the speckled band that I wrote as if I were Sherlock Holmes thing.And basically, it was a QR code that contained an image of another QR code that contained an image of another QR code.
And eventually, you'd get the coordinates out of that.It was recursive that way.
So that's that's an idea of a theme You can also have a theme be something Star Trek themed but the main thing about doing the theme is that you that you would like to for that theme to help people figure out what to do at the next stage or everything and that you they can follow along some sort of a storyline so that when they finish they they They've they've they feel a sense of satisfaction from having that having followed that theme, right?
And sometimes people will interrupt the theme at the last stage or something and do the coordinates out of order or backwards or something because it quote unquote makes it harder.
And that kind of thing ruins the effect of the theme when you do that.
So I see your point on that, Fizzi.And I think you're right.I think there's something satisfying about following both as the creator and the solver to be able to follow.It's like following a story.It's like a story arc.That's exactly right, yes.
Well, and once you've figured out the technique to use it over and over again is satisfying.Oh, I already know how to do this.
That's right.That's right.Yeah.
Well, and that's the attraction to crosswords and Sudokus and things because it's like, oh, I know how to do this.I can get started on it.
That's right.And a fun thing to do is to have a crossword that has a bunch of themed entries in the crossword.And then there's a meta puzzle around the crossword, which follows the theme of the themed entries.Those are really fantastic.
I'm trying to build one right now and I'm having trouble.
Well, you talk about a theme in a series.I see Keats says, I have a series of mystery caches that are multiple choice questions.And the series is a tribute to a famous Canadian storyteller.
You can check out the Vinyl Cafe series if you're in Southwest BC.
Hmm.I think I maybe did one or two of his when I was at the Geo Woodstock a couple years ago.
Okay, nice. Yeah, I guess that's the thing.There's different approaches you can take to the puzzles, and I'm sure we'll get into that.
That's right.And the other thing that goes with that theme is that there's some logical progression, so that the next step you have to do to solve the thing is not some leap out of nowhere.Right.
I want to jump in on something here, because You know, you've talked about following a theme and we've had a few people, Keats, Comiquino, said he's got a series of puzzles based off the Red Dwarf, a British sci-fi series.
And there's definitely the idea of having multiple puzzles that are on the same theme.But I don't think that's what you were getting at.I think you were talking about like within the puzzle itself being contiguous and consistent on the theme.
Yes.I like having, I like, so there's a, there's a really a, a world-class puzzler who joined the geocaching community in the Bay Area a few years ago.
He's, he goes by the name Jeremiah Johnson and he is, he, he is, he goes and does the MIT puzzle hunt every year.And I mean, this guy is really fantastic.He's almost a, you know, he's a, he's a prodigy at solving puzzles.
And his thing about a puzzle is you always have to have the puzzle sort of turn back on itself and do something unexpected.
And the ideal, which this actually leads into my clever point about doing something clever, is you would love the ideal puzzles are when somebody does the puzzle and then after they do it, they're like, I didn't think that could be done.
I mean, how did he manage to get that extra word in there in a way that like you, you followed through and the, the very, I mean, those, and that's really the creme de la creme.
Those are the very best puzzles at once where after you've done it, you're, I can't even believe that was possible to do.
Limax is like Russian stacking dolls.
Yes, that was my first recursive puzzle.I had one called Russian Balls, and it was layers inside of layers.That's right.I was relatively proud of that, and I should probably do it again.
Just to, and Colm Aquino wants to make sure he can wrap his head around this too, Fizzy.So he's saying, for theme, do you mean the same way to solve the puzzles like the ones in such, so all the puzzles in a group that the-
I'm talking more about a single puzzle having a theme that follows the logic from the beginning to the end so that every step makes sense from the step before and you know what to do next.
It's not just a single step, it's actually more interesting than that.
Hopefully that's helping everybody follow what you're getting at there.Because I think that's a really good point.Because even myself, I've been guilty of creating puzzles where I take leaps of logic.And at times, I criticize those myself.
I call them, what was I thinking puzzles.
Yeah, I have a couple of those out there.One I can't get rid of.It's from early on in my geocaching career.
All right, got a got a thumbs up from Coven Kinos.I think he's got his.
Yeah.Okay, good.Yes.And so the next thing is,
You know, I also I love puzzles where it's something that somebody may not have ever seen before now I obviously love showing people weird things in math Little unknown things like did you know the factorial of any large number in base 10 always ends in a zero, right?
because two times five is 10 and then everything else after that is multiplying by 10.So you get a large, actually you get a large number of zeros at the end of every factorial in base 10, right?
That's like a weird fat math fact that people don't know.And so I enjoy, so for me, I enjoy those cause I am kind of a math nerd and that's fun.And there's another math nerd who you guys might've heard of named Hugh, who lives up in Vancouver.
Yes, who does the same kinds of things all the time and he was well beyond my intelligence and luckily he's in switzerland this uh He's not around to cause me any more pain, but But yeah, uh, he also does that kind of oh, he's a lovely.
So, uh, yes very Very smart.
Yes, I was working on Puzzle Cash and I was talking to people online about it and he was helping me with it.I've done these insanely difficult puzzles, which I can tell you about maybe some other time.I have an alter ego
That is supposedly a russian spy from the cold war and then he sets up puzzles that are so difficult that no individual could solve them but they people in the bay area solve them as a group and uh, That's that's good because that's the communist way, right?
We we share everything together and we have to so anyway, uh, so I did one that involved, uh, undoing some modern cryptography a thing called a feistel network He was helping me with that and I was very impressed with him.
And then I realized he was a high school student and that completely blinked.So anyway That's that's a weird story.We could talk about venona some other time.
Maybe that would be interesting Yes, venona does puzzles that are effectively impossible for a single human at least multiple humans together again The idea is that you get 20 or 30 people together working on it.They can solve it.Wow
I'm very proud of some of those that were insanely difficult to put together and for them to solve, but it was a lot of fun.
Okay, so you mentioned that you enjoy insanely difficult, but earlier you also mentioned that we should avoid some pitfalls, and is one of those making it insanely difficult?
No, you know, I don't mind an insanely difficult puzzle that's rated as five stars What I mind is an insanely difficult puzzle rated five stars where the owner is not willing to do any help at all or You know and this is after the first of five
I think I would I would mind out where so if a puzzle feels like it's a It's a competition between the puzzle creator and the solver to see who's smarter That's that doesn't strike me as terribly interesting.
It's trivially easy to make a puzzle cache.That's impossible I mean I could do that, you know
They're and the point the trick is to make one that's maybe a little tricky to solve but that normal people can do with just Asking questions and that they can do and once they've done it.
They've learned something new and it might be difficult but for the really difficult ones I leave them for the venona who are groups of 20 or p or so people are going to work together on them because
There's no fun in making super, super difficult puzzles for people.
Now, of course, I fell into that same mindset early on in my puzzling career, where I thought I was smarter than everybody and I was going to do hard puzzles that they couldn't solve.
And I'm slightly ashamed of, as I said, some of my early puzzles that had that attitude in them.But I think I've learned a lot since then.
And as I've matured and gotten better as a puzzle creator, my puzzles are more and more straightforward what you're supposed to do. There are some that are relatively difficult, like for example, a puzzle I made a few years ago.
Do you ever play the game Boggle?Which is where you shake up these, yeah.So what I said is, well, I made a, I did a Boggle and here are some of the words I did on that Boggle.
And if you figure out the order of the strings that could make all those words from it, from the Boggle cube, then that will give you the coordinates of the cache. Right, so that's difficult.
It's it's tricky, but you know what to do right away And you know, you know what how you have some ideas at least about how to how to start So I think i've gotten better at that.
I i'm the ones I don't like so much are the ones where There's nothing there or there's nothing to start on and it's somebody that's hidden something in a clever way And you're just to play hide and say find it.Those are not as fun for me
The real thing I think is a bad thing though is tedium.So I have a real pet peeve against people who do text based puzzles where they post an image of the text or they have numbers and they post an image of the numbers, right?
So you can't copy and paste it, you have to... Yeah, yeah.
And I'm not a terribly great typist.And so it takes me a while to do that in.
But the point is that if there's a certain amount of tedium involved where what you're doing is not moving toward the solution of the puzzle, you know, doing some mindless task that just is tedious, I think that's a problem that I don't enjoy.
I don't enjoy it very much.
Like searching for a fake rock in a sea of rocks?
Yes, yes, I think I've become less.Neil and Haystack file patches can be fun in a group.Yeah, I don't think they're so fun by ourselves.Exactly.That's that's the point.Exactly.Yes, I am.
Yes, I had a cryptography puzzle a while back where it was a one time pad and the OTP was the background image for the cache page.
That's kind of cool.Well, it was actually the bytes of the of the image that were the one time that were the the pad It's actually not a one-time pad tech.
Well, there's a whole technical I'm getting these but if the if the pad is not created randomly it's it's actually known as what's called a running puzzle because it's it's a key that the key is as long as the ciphertext and that's that's how
Um, but uh, but yeah, I you could do it one time pad I for my most recent phone.I figured out how to uh, hide pictures in Gifs such that every layer of the gif had a different picture in it.
Um, actually not one layer of the gif would have a different picture in it for every gif and the reason you could do that is because gifs use don't have a straightforward color mapping scheme.They have a color map
If you just do 128 colors instead of 256, you can make an arbitrary image at some bit level of a GIF.That was fun.
But once again, I saved that for Venona because that's the thing that you have to have very specialized knowledge to be able to even start to approach.The last year and a half, I've been mostly doing word puzzles.
I did a couple of what are known as cross-number puzzles.It's a crossword, but it's with numbers. Those were fun to create as well.But making a single solution for those can be difficult, and that took a while.
In general, I'd say one sign of a good puzzle, in my opinion, and once again, this is an opinion, is that the puzzle should be a lot harder to create than it is to solve.
So I I when I see a puzzle I think wow this guy really worked hard to make this all work well together I'm very appreciative of those puzzles and I've I've had puzzles that have taken me months to to finish to actually get them to the point where I want them to work properly and so I
Don't claim it all minor that way, but I've had a couple that have been that way and those are the ones I'm proud of stuff and I think people enjoy those because The kind of puzzles that I don't appreciate as much I mean I people love them and I'm not trying to downplay but jiggity puzzles all you have to do is come up with an image post the image to the jiggity site and have a message come up after they've solved the puzzle and
That's about a five minute job.And then of course it could, if you make the puzzle 500 piece puzzle, it can take people a long time to solve it.
And so the asymmetry in the amount of effort put in by the person creating the puzzle and the person solving strikes me as being not what I would like to put out for my skin.
Do you think the average geocacher's knowledge of image-based puzzles has increased over the years?Meaning, oh, you know what, if this is an image, let's go look at the EXIF data.
Maybe that's got something hidden in it or, you know, different ways you can manipulate images.
Two years ago, I would have said yeah, but geocaching has managed to screw up the images to such an extent that that's no longer.
And let me tell you, it's it's not just the geocaching strips out the exit data because they do strip out all the exit data now so exit. on cache pages are no longer useful.But in addition, geocaching does what's known as transcoding the image.
So even if you set up a JPEG, the JPEG you get back from them is not the same as the JPEG that you sent them.The bits in the image are different.There also was a format for images called PNG, which is where you can have exact things in the pixels.
Geocaching takes those things, sends them out to you with a .PNG extension, but what they send you is actually a JPEG.
Yes, I'm a I wrote a rather testy forum post on that a couple years ago.And of course, like you said, nobody goes to the forums anymore.
So no one noticed that I was I was annoyed by that, because now it's no longer possible to do it, you have to make an external link to an external image from your dash page and put all the disclaimer around it, etc.We'll have a real
Luckily, they still accept GIFs and that's nice.But aside from that, they send out what's known as a progressive JPEG, which is a special kind of decoding.
And I know all these things because I'm a nerd, but no, I don't think most geocachers know this anymore.In fact, I'm a moderator on the geocaching puzzles.
Reddit subreddit if you ever go there, um, and the number of people who just post, uh, screen captures from their phones of puzzles is, is increasing a lot over the last result.
I think that, no, I don't think people understand the image formats well anymore.
I think you're right.As soon as I said it, I thought, well, more people are on their phones.You can do less on your phone than you could on your computer. Yeah, maybe you're exactly right.
A couple of weeks ago, I was doing a geocache and the hint was, look at the background image on the geocaching page.It turns out that using Chrome on Android, you can't see the background image on the cache page.It is effectively impossible to do.
It's interesting to me, though, that you shared that information about the images and the cache pages because not too long ago, I tried to create a puzzle and I was struggling like heck with trying to get it to do what I wanted it, like how I wanted the puzzle solved to work.
And it just wasn't working.And I eventually realized I was running into some weird situation that you've explained it.I wasn't sure exactly what it was technically, but it was that this just isn't going to work because they've done something.
Yes, that's right.I something happened with the lawyers a few years ago and they got all panicked and then and then of course there was the disaster of all the free image hosting sites suddenly deleting all their images and everything else.So that's
The best thing to do is to have yourself a web server and to serve up the image on your web server and make a link to it on your cache page.And then you can do that.But then you have to, you know, pay for a web server in perpetuity, more or less.
Yeah, there are ways around that.But but again, that that involves a certain level of skill that not everyone has.
Yeah, that's right.That's right.And but the point is, I don't think that there's a There are some puzzles that I have done that require a little bit more in-depth knowledge than others.
If you want to see the one that I'm probably the most proud of that I won't spoil, it's called Land of 10,000 Puzzles.But it requires that you learn how to use the online dictionary of integer sequence.
I just learned that that was a thing.
Yeah, that's a resource every puzzle cacher should know about.Yes, that's fantastic.Anyway, that was a good one.I enjoyed building that one a lot.
That should be another one that if you do it properly, you should be thinking that shouldn't have been possible to do.I love that one. Limex love that one.Yeah.Oh, Limex did it.Yes, he did.That's right.Doug is, he's a good friend here in Livermore.
So, okay.So we, we've seen, okay, maybe images aren't the way to go anymore.If you were mentoring, well, one of our listeners, I was going to say a new cashier, but not necessarily a new cashier.
Uh, to do their first puzzle cache, what would you, uh, suggest that they do for, you know, the solved coordinates?Do you do all 12 to 15 coordinates or.
So recently I've been, I've been encouraged and this is, this is a real change in my attitude since early on, but I've been encouraging people to do puzzles that come up with a.
a solution that's a word or something interesting that's in theme, and then they enter that into Certitude and Gout.I actually, I really like that method.
It gives you much more ability to do interesting puzzles that don't go, aren't just figuring out coordinates.Yes. So I would actually recommend that for a new cacher.Learn how to use Certitude and learn how to use the Certitude.
There's an alternate page that you can have.So if they enter an answer that's not correct, but it's one that you know that they're going to enter, then you can have a message there that then points them to the right.
So on Certitude, you effectively get two different answers that they can enter that you will be able to give them the coordinates for. I've recently been trying to make caches that come out with interesting looking what3words coordinates.
Of course, you guys are all aware of the disaster that is what3words now.Have you heard of this?What3words decided that they were no longer going to allow people to turn what3words into coordinates through their API.
Geocaching toolbox and all the other places that have tools that will take what3words words and turn them into coordinates don't work anymore.
You actually have to go to the what3words website and there's a way that you can do it at the what3words website.
I'm thinking about changing all of my what3words into certitudes where you enter the three words and then it just gives you the coordinates.It's frustrating, but that's the thing that happens when you're doing something at the edge.
Right.Now, Fizzy, you keep mentioning certitude.How is that different than the checker on the geocaching site?
Okay.Certitude is different from the checker on the site in three important ways.The first way is that it can take approximate solutions.
So when within say 10 meters or so, or it may be 30 meters, but you can have an approximate solution and it will tell you that If you get within that circle, it will give you the exact solution and then you'll go to that location.
So for things like geometry puzzles, which by the way are a lot of fun, that can be helpful.So you don't have to have exactly the same calculation that person who created the puzzle was.
The second thing- Your answer can be fuzzy fizzy.
Yeah.A fuzzy fizzy for fuzzy number.Yes. Yeah, and then the other thing you can do is you can put in a keyword.So, keywords that Certitude does, it removes spaces, it makes them all uppercase.But people have abused that horribly.
There is a whole series of caches in Texas that I call the worst puzzle caches in the US, where they're just, they're a picture, and you're supposed to read the cache hider's mind and writing the word that that picture corresponds to into Certitude, and then you get the coordinate.
They are truly awful.I won't name the name of the person who had them, but it's a Texas person.
Now, don't hide your feelings.Tell us what you really think.
Yes, yes.But then the third thing certitude can do is you can have a wrong answer that people answer.And if they do give the wrong answer, then you either give them another hint or you point them at the right answer.
And so those are three things that certitude can do that you can't do with the official check, which I appreciate all of those.
So that takes a little understanding of HTML to get the certitude link in there. Yeah, yeah, but it's not too bad.
No, it's it's pretty simple URL and certitude.
If you if you if you are a premium member and you sign in, you can log into certitude and then when you find the correct answer, it will update the coordinates and the hint and your personal note on the cache page automatically for you.
I guess I'm not a premium member.
Yeah.Well, well, you don't, I mean, premium member of geocaching.
Yes.And then Certitude is a partner such that you can, uh, you can use, and they use the geocaching API to update the coordinates and your personal note to be the hint that they give you on Certitude.
That's the other, Oh, that's another thing Certitude does.Like you have another hint that's available for people who solve the puzzle.Not the same as the hint on the cache.Oh, sure.Sure.Yeah.I've seen that.
That's right.So, um, so I like I like certitude a lot in my defense Certitude was written by a guy who started cashing in the Bay Area, but you know, there's a lot of that around Yes, that's right.
So I yeah, I just I um, my fourth thing was I said a fall avoid some common pitfalls So I'm just gonna I can I just really talk really quickly to those ease.I Please.Okay, so these are these are things that these are not to do.
So I know that I'm being a little negative here.I think I've tried to be as positive as I can about the things you should aim for.But the first one is no three digit puzzle.
No puzzle where you're solving for the last three digits, because there's no way to know that you're on the right way until you actually to check
If you do five digits each of latitude and longitude Then at least you have the minutes and you know that the minutes are going to be within a couple of the minutes you're sorry And so that gives you the idea that you're on the generally the right track and getting the numbers that you're getting But if you only do the last three digits
There's no way to know.There's literally no way to know except for actually doing a check.
And as I said, frequently, I will see three-digit puzzles where I can think of literally hundreds of ways of getting the three digits, the data that's given, and it's not unambiguous.The second thing I talk about is one-true-page puzzles.
And a one true page puzzle is a trivia puzzle or something That there is exactly one page on the internet that has the correct solutions And every other page on the internet that is about the same topic has incorrect solutions So you end up with these ambiguities where you have to go to the one true page.
So um That's another thing that you run into.And I can see Len Monkey nodding his head.So you've obviously run into that.
It's interesting, right?Because when we first started playing the game, our daughter, who was quite young at the time, has always had a fascination with sharks and rays.And she had created a puzzle cache based on sharks.
And the answers were all based out of this book we had.And there were trivia questions about sharks.And we hadn't thought about it at the time, but it was exactly that.Except instead of a page on the internet, it was the page on a book.
And unless you had that book, you you wouldn't get the same answers.And so, you know, people were struggling with it.We're like, oh, I was in this.And so eventually, you know, I would Google it.Oh, well, that's a totally different answer.
OK, now I see why this is a problem.So I can relate to that having, you know, you know, our daughter accidentally did that.
But I can also see how it's it's common that people would do that, because I think without this kind of advice, it wouldn't even occur to them that that's a problem.Yeah.
That's right.That's right.
So the next thing is what I call the wall of text puzzle and it's just an Increment a long wall and I've done this and I admit to it I've done walls of text where you'll have a few Misspelled words in the text and the misspelled words in the text give you the coordinates or something like that, right?
They're just they're just annoying to do because you have to try and parse through this text and so that's all I'll say about them I I think red herrings are fine.
If you have one or two i've seen puzzles where you'll have 10 red herrings and then one correct solution and that feels to me as if the cache creator the puzzle creator is basically taunting the uh, the uh solvers and maybe i'm more sensitive than the others are but that's not one of my favorites and the final thing is just doing something weird at the very end because you didn't think it was hard enough to make it harder and so
There was a guy in the Bay Area who would do that.He would just make his coordinates start at a random place.He would just wrap them.We have north 37 here.
Instead of starting north 37, or the 37 would be three or four down, and then everything else would be rotated.He just did that, he said, just to make it a little harder.
The point is that doesn't fit into the whole logic of the solution or anything else.But there is a magic cure for all these things.And the magic cure for all these things is having your puzzles play test.
Send the puzzle to two or three people who don't know the answer and have them describe to you the process of solving your puzzle, what it was like, what they liked, what they didn't like, and
In addition to making it generally a much better experience for everybody, in addition, it gets rid of those pesky little errors.
Then you can take an agile development approach.
Well, yes, exactly.That's very much what it is, an agile development approach.
And you would be shocked by the number of puzzle caches when they first come out that contain errors that I would Yeah, and so just having somebody solve it and make sure that they get the right answer the same answer you did and I
that they can start from nothing and then get there.That prevents moon logic, that prevents read my mind, that prevents a lot of these downfalls that make puzzles a little annoying, is just getting feedback from somebody.
So, yeah, Doug just, Limex said, yeah, I've seen earth caches that are walls of text.Yeah, that's a problem. Yeah, actually I have earth caches that are so large that the entire description doesn't fit in my GPS.Yeah It's not such a big deal anymore
Fizzy, have you used AI to help you create any puzzles?
No, I have tried using it to help solve puzzles.Interesting.I've been recently using it to make backgrounds for event pages.We name our events things to help people qualify for ridiculous challenges that involve caching in the area.
And so we name all our events things that allow people to collect words or whatever they need for the for the and so I mean our most recent event was something about 13 iron ox or zinc oxide beach guard kumquats or something like that.
in order to get all those words.And so I actually go to AI and I will have them make a background picture of 13 zinc oxide kumquats.And we get some pretty amusing pictures that way.But no, I have not actually tried using it to create a puzzle.No.
Sometimes, especially for trivia puzzles, it can be very helpful in helping you solve it.
Briling has used ChatGPT to generate some puzzle cache pages for me.I just edited the text to work numbers into the text of the puzzles.You'll need to extract the numbers to solve the puzzle.
That's good.As long as I can do it with Python, I'm happy.
Yes, if I can get the description into a program and run it through my program looking for numbers or something, I'm happy with that.
I'm not sure everyone's happy with that because not everybody who solves puzzle caches can program, but for me personally, it's no problem.
Limex says, it was 13 queen bears guarding a beach.
And Dora Moore's pretty certain that chat GPT drinks on Saturday night because it's never worked for her, just comes up with random weird stuff.So there you go.Sometimes it's about the prompt too, though.It's gotten fairly polished.
But what I wanted to say earlier, Fizzy, I just wanted to thank you for coming prepared into the show to bring some of this great stuff.I think brand new cachers as well as experienced puzzles or cachers who want to create puzzles.
I think you have given us some really good guidelines to work from and some things to think about.
Thank you.That's awesome.Well, you're welcome.I've thought about it much over the years because I really enjoy them and I have, as you can tell, strong opinions.My opinions might be wrong, but they're mine and so I love them because of that.
There you go.But you know what?Opinions are opinions and there's questions about those.But I think what's helpful with what you're sharing and framing it as it's your opinion, fair enough.
But it's a perspective and some guidelines around it that people can accept or not.But I think if you look at those guidelines and you kind of walk through them, it's like,
This makes, if you go through the pitfalls you shared, following a path of avoiding those pitfalls would really be able to create a puzzle that follows your four premises that you put forward.
Fun to solve, following a theme, and original or clever, or the solver learned something new.And as you said, an emphasis on the number one.
Yeah, that's the main thing is that it's not a competition between you and the finders.It's really about creating an experience for the solver that they get to enjoy.And that's, to me, that's the number one thing that we should be focused on.
awesome i love it so fizzy magic thank you so much we might have to have you back to talk more i don't think we got through a lot here that there's a lot more that you're hiding below the surface there yes i am always willing to talk i'm happy to that's great and i enjoyed it a lot
Fantastic.And I just enjoyed getting some fizzy insights.And folks, thank you for tuning in.We hope you enjoyed this episode of cashing in the Northwest.
Absolutely.We want to take a moment to thank our corporate Denali level sponsors.That is Lansharks, L-A-N-D-S-H-A-R-K-Z dot C-A and Cashly, the iOS app.Lansharks is the outdoor adventure and geocaching store.
Check them out online and they're shipping those online orders daily.And Cashly is the geocaching app for iOS.Go to cashly.com and or find it on the iOS store and download it. Two days.
Yeah.I love Cachely.I want to inject something.Cachely can let you see the background images on your cache pages.Cachely is awesome.
That's awesome.Good interjection, Fizzy.Thank you. Folks, we also want to thank all of our faithful Denali-level supporters.So of course that's Landsharks and Cashly, but it's also Cool Cow Cashers and Hawaiian Miley.
If you want to know more about supporting this show, well, make sure you head on over to the Patreon link, that's what it's called, on the cashingnw.com website.
Just like Mountain Bike did.And Trekzer.
Greenwords.BPendragon.Peach of Washington.Antaeus.GeoNavPro.MC3Cats.LG9000.Geocaches.UDAC.The Seabeck Tribe.Butterfly Girl.Flagmen.Just finding our way.
Kid, Vegas19, BCrockcrawler, Boomer365, Jcar, Korsgut, Skyhawker, WidbyIslandGal, Mnerv, KittyQuest, TheCampClan, TheTerribleTees, YouTalksToRocks,
Hey, it's Limax.Hey, uh, Genie's CRS 98 GSM times two coming on the show soon.Nice.Hacker doc.Subway mark.Team Noltec.
Railroad.Gas station tuna.Geo burger.
And wrapping it up, I saw him in the chat, JustCarlo.So thanks to all the patrons and thank you, Fizzy, for joining us tonight.If people wanted to get in touch with you directly, do you have a way that you'd like them to do that?
I'm happy to respond on the geocaching chat.That's probably the easiest way to get me.And then if we're going to do a more extensive discussion, we'll move to Discord or something else.
Sounds great. I love it.So once again, thank you guys for taking the time to listen to this episode of cashing in the Northwest.Your support helps keep the quality shows coming.
So if you like the show, please click the Patreon link on the cashing in w.com website.Now, if you didn't like the show, and I say this almost every week, I don't know how you couldn't this week.
Um, but let us know what you want us to talk about, but if you like the vibe, please subscribe wherever you get your podcast and leave us a review.Now, if you were in a restaurant, you would tip.
If you were in a live audience, you would clap, but since you're on a podcast, leave us a free, fast, fabulous, fantastic five-star review.And of course you can call in to 2 5 3 6 9 3 T F T C and leave us a comment.
Ask us a question or help us with a puzzle cash anytime of the day or night. Of course, you can always email us at feedback at caching nw.com.Join us every Thursday night at 9 p.m.Pacific for a live show and even livelier chat.
This show is produced by Chris Humphanour, Jim Paulowitz, Jay Kennedy, and Brian Lang.It's licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 license.Copyright 2024 by Chris Humphanour.Folks, I ask you to stay tuned for The After Show.
The After Show seemed louder.Maybe it just echoed in my head.
OK, boy, that's great.Yeah.OK, so fear the tubas.Great name, by the way, says I came in late, but I loved what I heard.Looking forward to going back and hearing the beginning of the show.Love me some puzzles.Happy to hear more from Fizzy Magic.
Awesome.When you mentioned you like to say that.
Yeah.He's great.As you mentioned, you like to talk.Limex also says that you are a man of many words.
Yes, I saw that earlier on.And he's not wrong.
Oh, let's see.We've got some.Here, here's one from Cash Encants.They say, uh, P S E S five, how to make your own puzzle cash is an event at the, uh, this Sunday at the Issaquah seminary.Nicely timed.That's a GC alpha Romeo, Juliet zero Foxtrot.
Are you proud of me, Jim?
Nicely done.I'll pat your head down there.
I would have had to look up at least one of those letters.I might have to go to that.That is Issaquah Salmon Heifer.You should.
That's not too far.That's, what, 30 miles away from Seattle?That's not bad.
Yeah.A little, little farther for me, but you know, I'm, I'm a little farther Souther.
Seaback tribe says there's the terror on the peninsula this weekend.That is boy, that's, you know, several days of events, many, um, adventure labs.Oh, wow.Yeah.And they're putting out new caches just for it.
I mean, they're, they're, they're going all in.You could spend all weekend right there on the peninsula with the terror on the peninsula. I'm going to be out there.So maybe I'm the terror.You should probably are.Yeah.OK.Come on.
You know, I had fun cashing with you.So he didn't consider you a terror.Well, that's because the check probably cleared.
Yeah.Yeah.But he's a fan of horror.So.Oh, yeah.So I don't know.That's not really setting the benchmark.Yeah, really.
Hey, so he had fun cashing with the kid, Chris of the Northwest and MC three cats over the weekend at a Cito.
That's awesome.Yeah.We went out to eat together at pickle time.
Did you want to eat toe after the CTO?
Yes.That's the way it works.
I'm glad to hear that you guys all pronounce that correctly.There are people, there are people who pronounce it.Saito doesn't make a lot of sense.Yes.
Well, it's tough, right?Because the English language, uh, you know, how do you pronounce an acronym?Do you pronounce it with, you know, the sound that the letter makes in the word it comes from?
Yeah, that's, that's, that's a really good, that's a great question, but, um, Italian is lovely because every syllable is always pronounced exactly the way it's spelled.
English is a unusual language in that we've inherited so many words from other languages that The spelling and the pronunciation are pretty much Disconnected from each other.Did you guys all get out and do earth caches this last weekend?
Yes.Yes good I I will I will say that not only for international earth cache day.Not only did I do an earth cache I did an international earth cache.So, you know just doing it, right?
Did you go over to Russia?
No, I I went to this strange foreign land south of me
No, a little, a little bit north.
California.That is plain gen foreign land.
Yes, many wonders.We went up to Mount Baker.Oh, that's fun.Haven't been there in ages.So I went with some friends, had a Canadian Friendsgiving International Earth Gash Day.
Friendsgiving?Is Mount Baker rumbling?
I've heard there's some stuff going on.I didn't actively see any fumaroles or anything going off on Baker, off in the distance.I mean, you say you go to Mount Baker, but when you go to the park, you're quite distant from Mount Baker.Yeah.Yeah.
No.In my condition, no.I totally get that.
Well, um, co Makino, the kid and MC three cats and I were going to go do an earth cash, but we ran out of time and you know, as you know, the day was getting dark.So I had to go do one on Sunday.I'm like, I gotta run out and I gotta go do this now.
So I did one that was the, the earth cash was incredibly easy.You know, it, it, what kind of Valley are you looking at?It's one of these three.Yeah. Types.Okay, that was easy.Values, goals.You've done that one?
The whole thing was poised as a super duper secret agent geography test that you failed. And here you get to go do it again.So that was fun.But from the parking spot to the viewpoint was, you know, half a mile downhill.
So coming back up half a mile uphill was tough.That was quite the walk.Okay.Heather says there's a great series in the Portland area called Women in STEM.
I'd like to look at those.
Yeah.And she also created a word find for her event that people would solve, then read the remaining letters for a message about the location of the event log sheet.
That's fun.I like that idea.
Yes.I have, of course, written a program that does that automatically for you.
Oh, well, that makes it so much easier.
It does yes, the problem is when you use too big a dictionary if you have a list of the words You're supposed to find it's easy if you don't have and you just use a dictionary you can end up finding way too many Who's the guy who um, jim somebody who is uh hides caches in bellevue that did one that was based on a word So I thought was really clever.
I should go back and look at that one Jim is not the name nick maybe or something.But anyway, you have some great puzzle caches.
Yeah It's not not bounce bounce.Was it?I don't know
He wouldn't bounce bounce tends to do gadget.He's more gadgets Yeah, I love me gadget caches, but I'm not really good at them CRS 98 says the first time I met fizzy magic Washington to free dive for a t5 cash.
Yes It was just off the university there and there was a dock and the cash was down at the base of a piling that The doc was on I still remember that that was great.I loved that's right.I
That was probably back in 2008.I'm thinking.
Wow.Okay.Cool.And you made it out alive.
Oh yeah.Yeah.It was a lot of fun.We had a great time.I've been up several times.
And I think we have one more here from Keats that says working on a Morocco mini series for my YouTube channel.First Moroccan episode hits YouTube, October 26th.
He's got that planned out, doesn't he?
Oh, is this going to be a series of caches you found in Morocco?
Yeah, he just came back from a trip to Morocco from the photos.Looks like quite a trip.So, yeah.Oh, wow.That sounds like fun.Always fun.
You were mentioning the one true page pet peeve.We had almost a one step further than that.
There was a college campus near Chris's house, and we tried to find this cache that hadn't been hidden in a long, long time, or hadn't been found, excuse me, in a long, long time.And we kind of muscled through it and realized that
What they wanted you to do was go to the campus website and pull up a campus map.And you know how a map has dots on it, like number 13 is this residence hall and stuff.Well, they changed the map.So the numbers didn't match anymore.
The overlay that you download didn't match up.
So it's like, yeah, it's not just one true page, but when the page updates, you know, thankfully, I think we went back to like, you know, Internet Archive way back machine and found an old graphic or something or just Armstrong that I don't know.
It never worked right.Yeah.
I ended up reaching out to a previous finder.Yeah.Hey, how did you do this?Oh, here's the coordinates.That's not what I wanted.
Yeah, so there is a trick that you can do on wikipedia that will give you the wikipedia as of any date in the past And so I do that not infrequently on puzzle on uh trivia caches I will actually set it to a week before the cache was hidden and then Then use the wikipedia from then because wikipedia changes pages also change a lot too
Yeah.Awesome.Oh, fizzy.We had a lot of fun.
We probably went to so much for having me.Yeah, I can talk a lot.I am.I apologize for that.No, I warned you in advance.
Yes, you did.And no apologies needed.
Yeah.So I would love to come back sometime.That's great.It was I had a great time.Thank you very much for having me.
Oh, you're welcome.We'll get you scheduled to come back and folks Thanks for tuning in and until next week get out and get cashing in the northwest.
That's right.By the way cliff was right
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