If you believe you can, you're right.And if you believe you can't, you're right.So believe in yourself.
Welcome to Building Doors.In this series, you'll develop the skills to build a roadmap for success, get inspired by those leaders who have come before you, and give you the confidence to stop waiting and start building.
Welcome to the Building Doors podcast.
It's great to have you as a guest, Andrew.
I always do find it really interesting when we have loads of recommendations for a particular guest and your name has come up a couple of times, definitely as someone who advocates in the industry, but also as someone who's got a bit of an interesting story yourself and background.
So, thank you for coming on.
Thank you.I'm really not sure my story's that interesting, but anyway.
Yeah, that's what you said at the start.You're like, I don't think I'm really interesting.
But I think the career that you've had and then now having your own business is interesting to a lot of people because so many people think about doing their own consulting work and they don't know what that looks like and they don't necessarily, some of them never really take that opportunity.
And I think before we get stuck into talking about the industry, it'd be really good to understand a bit about your background.Tell us your story about
right from when you realized you wanted to study and get into this type of industry and a little bit of an overview of your career.
Okay, sure.This is going to be highly embarrassing, particularly to my kids if they listen.
I love embarrassing.We're here for it.
I got interested in engineering when I was about five or six.
I started playing with blocks and I built, I thought it was some kind of tower.And my mother said, that looks like the Eiffel Tower.And she said, you know, you're great, great. grandfather and your great uncle were all engineers.
And from that path, I always wanted to be an engineer.So I did maths one, maths two, physics, chem at uni, oh at school, and then got into a uni at QUT.So that was my path.And when I was at uni, I got a scholarship with main roads.
So that was the end of second year.And that paid for me to go through third and final year and then gave me a guaranteed job for three years. Yes.At the end of it, it was really interesting because they paid me, I think it was $110 a week to study.
And my mates were like, Chappie, that is drinking money. So I was everyone's best mate, um, during uni.Seriously.I came out to main roads.
I worked in Metro, I worked in Toowoomba district, got to work on some road projects up there, black soil, deal with that.How do you come up with some, using ridge gravels to do your road pavements rather than manufactured stuff.
Um, really interesting sort of, I guess, apprenticeship into the profession.I left main roads, um, went to Queensland transport, worked on Brisbane light rail project until it got canned.
And I then sort of jumped ship into the private sector and I was with Robert Bird group for about 18 months.I had this great idea.I could set up a project management group and I learned a lot, quite a lot along the way.
I did a bit of structural work with a bit of construction engineering, which was really interesting. One of the projects I got to work on was with Grokon.They don't exist anymore, but they were doing Eureka Tower.
They were going to build Eureka Tower, and they came to us and said, we think we need three cranes, but can we do this with two?And if we need three, how long do we need them for? I developed up this operational model on spreadsheet, really.
Every engineer loves a spreadsheet to map out their productivity per floor, how many movements we needed per crane, what productivity we get out of the cranes to then work out.
How long we need, if we needed three cranes and then how long we needed them for.And that helped them optimize the product.They then got me to look at a whole heap of other products from the same stuff.
I finished up there, went to GHD, spent, oh geez, 2002 to 2007 at GHD and ended up heading their transport planning business up. And I got to work on some really interesting projects.
You said one before from Dubai, the Palms.
Yeah, I worked on the Palms in Dubai.
What was involved in the Palms project?
So the Palms project was an idea to create greater tourism around Dubai.What they were doing was reclaiming, out of the Arabian Sea, all these islands in the shape of a palm.
And they had a trunk, a spine, and then all these fronds out of it, and then this big thing called a crescent. And the whole idea was to put high-end residential, multi-story, commercial retail on the Palm.
And then on the Crescent were all these really big hotels.When we got there, they'd done all the reclamation.They were doing the construction.And they said, look, and I was doing all the transport stuff for it.
And they went, we've worked out economically this thing doesn't work at 30,000 people on there. we need to bump up the density to 100,000.So, all of these little high-end sort of raises along here, we're going to make multi-stories.
So, does the road network work?And I went, I don't know.And I had to go and work out very quickly whether the the five lane bridge in each direction was going to work.
And we came back and said, look, you're going to need something like seven or eight lines on this thing, unless you do some travel management.And they said, oh, we built it at five lines in each direction.I went, yeah, I know.
And they said, oh, we bought a monorail, so that'll be the public transport.And I went, oh, a toy.So. But it was a very interesting project.
At one point they wanted to put the world's greatest phallic symbol in the middle of the palm, which was going to be a tower a kilometre high.And because the developer, who owned
the keel doing the palm, his brother was doing Burj Khalifa, which is now Burj Dubai.And it was 890 meters high, so he wanted to better his brother and go a kilometer high.And we're like, seriously, guys, you're on reclaimed land.
the foundations on this thing are just going to be massive.And funnily enough, it happened to also be in the flight path of the original Dubai airport.Wow.And they said, it's okay, we move airport.So.
It's a completely different way of thinking.
Yeah, it's just a different way of thinking when you're dealing with that amount of money.Yeah.And it was just splashing around.Oil was record highs at the time.This is early mid 2000s.Yeah.So yeah, very interesting projects.
I left GHD, went to Seymour White.So, sort of back now on the contractor side.And I was their BD manager.I got to help the company grow into different areas.
That's where I started working with Sean Donald, Gary Giorgio, Gerd Winberger, great people like that.Andrea Hamill is at John Hollands now.And great environment, great place to work.And we were able to grow the company.So, we picked up
projects like the Toowoomba Port Access Road in JV with Abbey Group at the time.
And I think this is the stepping stone for where Seymour's really took off was that we got Seymour's on the original lines, which was the Ipswich motorway upgrade where TMR went, right, we want to grab tier one, a tier two or a couple of tier twos and a couple of designers and put them all together.
Yeah, Fulton Hogan as well.
So it was Abbey Group, Fulton Hogan, Seymour White, And for the life of me, I can't remember the two designers, but they were put together and it was called an origin team, like a state of origin team.Mango Murphy was the client running it.
And I think that is the point where Seymour White really took off because they got involved in a mega project and they were able to learn the systems and everything from a major to one.And I think that's where they really took off.
I then was headhunted into Teess and joined Teess in Queensland.
Yeah.As their- Pesky headhunters.
Yeah, I know. I did get approached by a friend who, hey, chappie, I think you should have a conversation with Thijs.And I ended up working in Thijs until the Spanish came and took over and moved us all over to Leighton.
And I was there for about six months and then moved on from there.I had a fantastic time at Thijs.And there were some amazing people to work with.I got to work on some amazing projects and opportunities.
I helped put together a strategy about how we entered the coal seam gas market.And you go, yeah, whatever. that strategy netted us $2.5 billion worth of work at a seriously good margin.And we focused on one particular client in one area.
So the upstream works, which is all your coal seam gas extraction and processing, we focused on QGC, whereas others were tending to be a little bit more scattergun.Oh, we'll look at Origin and we'll look at Santos and we'll look at work with QGC.
We were very focused.It was QGC upstream.So we ended up doing all their compression facilities upstream, which is amazing work.I happened to be working on the Arrow LNG plant feed.We'd established a really good relationship with Chioda out of Japan.
And Chioda, we'd helped Chioda secure the feed contract for the Arrow LNG plant, which was going to be the fourth on Curtis Island. So, I was helping lead our involvement into that.
Now, Toyota's partners were Saipan and CB&I, and Saipan were doing the pipeline for Santos.And I was over in Tokyo working with the guys, and the guys at Saipan said to me, hey, do you know how to do HDD or marine crossings?
yeah, well, I'd actually do it as a tunnel.And they said, well, our guys are having some challenges.So I rang up the SIPM guys in Brisbane and said, are you having some challenges?Might have a solution for you.
Cause they were going to horizontal directional drill across the narrows in Gladstone, which is, they'd have to do a basically series of three or four launches.And that meant pushing rock causeways out and it was just going to be a disaster.
So we found a little TBM, three and a half meter TBM that could do the job. And it was available.It had just finished a job, was being reconditioned at the time.So we pitched this idea to them.
Three and a half weeks later, we'd gone through a series of meetings.We had a meeting with, CentOS were brought into the meeting.
We pitched to them, talked them through the process, what we felt the costs were, the risks, how we're going to approach it.And we were told, you're it guys, $135 million contract.
there's a thread here, were you always strategic?
Because it seems to me like there's a thread there with those examples that you've given that there was an element and particularly from the Seymour White onwards, there was an element of strategic thinking and opportunistic and kind of going because I think so often we think engineering and you definitely have that technical knowledge and that backing but then also I see some of the success that you've had as well as strategic and was that something you always had or you built that
I think I've always sort of had it.I didn't realize I had it until I started to get into, I'd had a bit more experience and started to understand the industry.And when I was at GHC, I started to move in that space a little bit more.
And then, well, I did my MBA at the time I was at GHC as well. And I found an interest in that area.I'm not saying I'm great at it, but I found an interest.
And then when I was at Seymour White, we started to position the company a little bit more into different areas.
And look, I got to work with some great mentors, Brian Regal at Seymour White, and then at Teess with Rick Barato and Jim Aquino, Jason Spears, Glen McElroy, great people like that, and Bruce Munro, who passed away last year.
They're fantastic people that you basically, you're a sponge around to learn and develop from.And I found that strategic growth area was a passion of mine.
And you've mentioned it as well.There were quite a few different mentors that you've just spoken of just there.And I would easily mention quite a few off the top of your head, right?
How important do you think mentors are or people offering themselves as mentors in the industry to continue people's career growth?
extremely important, and I facetiously say about myself, I don't know what anyone wouldn't want to hear about me, but I think if you have experience in the industry, the greatest thing you can do is to help somebody else along their journey.
Every journey is going to be different, but having good mentors, and it doesn't have to be a formal mentor, it can be someone you just talk to, to kick an idea around, and they'll go, they'll come at it from a different perspective.
And that makes you think a little bit more broadly and go, wow, I didn't think about that.I could use that a little bit differently in what I'm doing now.
Do you think you had a skill as well?So if you've got the engineering skill set, which we've talked about that, and you move then into the contracting side. What about as a connector?
Did you find that you've kept that some of these relationships a long time and have they been enduring relationships with your mentors that you've had?
Some have, yeah.So certainly Bruce and I started, Bruce and Peter Olsen and I tried to buy a company in 2017 that had gone into administration.So those relationships do continue.
And in my role at the QMCA, I would bring in some of the people that I had worked with in the past. to help out with our awards judging.
So, I'd get Bruce on the panel, I'd get Peter, I'd get other people who I regard as fantastic people in the industry who've got so much knowledge to give back.Now, they might be retired or doing other things.
One of the great ones was Rick Broto, and he's in WA, he was our EGM for construction at Teess, and he would Yeah, even after we'd left Teess, he'd ring me and we'd have a chat.Wouldn't be regular, but we'd have a chat.
And I could ring him for anything too.He was great.In fact, at Bruce's funeral last year, it was like a Teess reunion.So many people, and they're all going, hey, Chappie, how are you going?
And it was great to see them all, and people you look up to and you value their input and advice.
So, you had this corporate career and then you founded your own business where you do consulting work.Tell us more about that.
So, after the Spanish had come in and moved Thies and Leighton around and people around, I went to Transport Services for about a year and then I was on contract with Serco for a year doing a modular prison cell solution, which is really interesting.
But that finished and I thought, what am I going to do now?And one of my mentor friends said to me, why don't you set your own business up? And I thought, okay.So I did.And I admit, the first six months were very hard.
Exceptionally hard.Because you're going, where am I going to get work?And so you're constantly knocking on doors and you think that's going to happen.
And you don't want to be annoying.It's a weird balance.
Oh, it is extremely annoying. challenging, I'll give it that.And I picked up a little bit of work with some people, which sort of got me going a little bit.
And then I had a friend, somebody I'd known, who I'd worked with in the past, and she was in Melbourne running a whole heap of rolling stock projects.And she said, Chappie, I need somebody to come down and run
this rolling stock project, well, there's two of them, do it as one.And it was doing all the business case and planning for the new trams for Melbourne and regional trains.
And they had tried four times previously to get it up and never were able to get it funded.So I came down and that project, well, it went in three, six month increments and we got up, the new trams are being manufactured now.So it got up the trains.
They become challenging, because it becomes an argument between the AMWU and the AWU about who gets what, and it's easier just to keep building velocity trains.Okay, fine, whatever. It was a really interesting project and opportunity to work.
Like I've sort of worked around the place, but to work in a different environment, like I was on contract, but I was government side.And, but I came at it from a private sector perspective about we're here to get a job done, no stuffing around.
How do we do this most efficiently and productively?
One of the things I want to touch on, because you talked about that first six months, and then you've had a background in business development.
So I am curious, with all the knowledge that you'd had around doing BD and strategy with Seymour White, what was it like going from that to then essentially your marketing yourself?
very daunting because as an engineer, none of us like talking, like this is hard to talk about yourself.Even though I'm an extrovert, it is, you don't like self-promotion.We're not good at it.
So to get out and say, hey, look at me, and it was quite daunting to consider. But I had a couple of good friends around me as well who had gone through similar journeys.And they said, just believe in yourself and you'll be right.
And like this, I'm absolute best mates.Things just started to happen then.It's a bit like a snowball.Once that momentum starts, you gather more and more along the way.And more and more people go, hey, can you help us out?Can you help us out?
I was talking to a lady the other day and she is an engineer that then became like a business coach and she's saying, why is this so hard?And she's like in her first six months.I totally agree with you.
You just got to wait for the momentum to build and just keep, even though it's hard, just keep pushing through.
And you've got to keep sticking at it.You can't go, and I will admit there were times in that first six months where I went, I've got to find a job. I just need to find a job.
And I started going through seek every day, and it's just like, oh, this is depressing.And this is like, start of 2018. And the marketing Queensland wasn't great.The marketing Queensland's only picked up in the last couple of years.
So everyone who had been in Queensland delivering all the energy and resources stuff between 2010 and 2015, that all left and they were down in New South Wales and Victoria.So if you want to work, you had to do that.
So for the stuff in Victoria, I was flying down on a Sunday night and flying back on a Thursday night and then doing a Friday from Brisbane.
Yeah.And I think what you said there's a really good one is just to keep going even though you think it might be hard.What worked?What was it?And I don't know if many people reflect on this.
What do you think was the turning point when you were doing it yourself that it did start to get easier?Did you figure out your own method of getting clients that worked?
Yeah, I think I did.At the start, I was just like, oh, go everywhere.And then I sort of noted, no, I'm going to focus on these areas where I can add value.
And people then started to go, hey, look, the market's turning in Queensland and we can use those services again.
Yeah, it's so true.At least when you know when you're niching in and what your specialization is, then you can hone in on that rather than trying to be everything to everybody.
Don't be everything to everyone.I think it's a good message.Just stick to what you're really good at.And look, you might take some stuff on the periphery.And recently we hosted a breakfast at the QMCA on International Women in Engineering Day.
It was an awesome breakfast.
And one of the comments stuck with me, and it was from Sasha, and she said, If you believe you can, you're right.And if you believe you can't, you're right.So believe in yourself.And I thought that was a really good message.I loved that.
And I kind of reflect back and think, oh yeah, it's about believing in yourself.
And do some reality checks, of course, but have some good people around you who are going to help you and go, hey, have you thought about this?Have you thought about that?One of my best mate when I was having
early on in that 2018 period where you're like, oh, where's the work going to come from?You can see the bank balance you put away to start the business starting to dwindle.And he said, Chappie, focus on this, this and this.
And he was, you know, a large corporate engineering company at the time.
I think what you said there hits home as well.I think so often when people go out on their own or they go out and start a business, You kind of got one foot out and one foot in, right?
Because you had those days where you're on sick and you're like, it's just going to be easier if I just get a job.
Because this is really hard coming up with a client base and you're representing yourself all of a sudden where for many years prior you've represented organizations.
When you're representing an organization, you've got a brand there.Yes.And you walk in a room and they go, Tease, we know who Tease are.Exactly.Hello.Yes.And you walk in and they go, who's AIC Strategic Solutions?Whatever.Yeah, okay, mate.
Isn't that like Australian Reinforcing Company?No, it's not.Yeah.I actually wanted to call it ACDC.My favorite band.And my wife said, cause her name's Debbie, she went, you are not.Cause I thought Andrew Chapman, Debbie Chapman.
And she goes, you are not calling it after your favorite band.
I think it's cool, but yeah, I agree with your wife.
I think one of the other things is having a good support network around you.So, when I finished up with Serco and set my own business up, my wife was really good.She said, don't stress, just keep working away and you'll get somewhere.
And having a really good support network like that is really important because I could have really stressed at that time, but I didn't.
You really also do need, we don't talk about it a lot, and even when you talk to people talking about motivation and business and stuff, how important your partner is, your husband or your wife, that they believe in you as well, and that they're like, it's okay, and they're not freaking out.
Because a lot of people find it hard when the partner's freaking out if the work's not coming quick and fast.
really important point.I mean, you've been through it.Yes.And, you know, having a partner who is 100% supportive.And look, that's had to come around.Like, Deb was amazing in helping me and supporting me.
And particularly, you know, when I then chuffed down to Melbourne for 18 months each week, she's got the family, the house, the kids, the dog to worry about while I'm effectively in an apartment by myself four days a week down there.
It's the other side of the industry that people don't necessarily always know or understand is what it takes in relationships and families to manage the travel requirement and things like that.
How did you as a family, how did you keep the family unit together and strong by the sounds of it during those periods?
I would talk all the time, but when you come back, you're there present.So when I would come back late on a Thursday night, I would make sure I took the kids to school on Friday morning.I'd pick them up from school.I'd be there to do stuff.
I was present, not just going, I'm here, I'm going to be doing work at the same time, but you're present and you do stuff together.I think that's a critical thing.
I think we always, you know, it's that quality time that you're talking about as well.The kids know when you're there and when you're not, you know, when you're really listening and when you're really engaged with what they're doing as well.Exactly.
So, QMCA.Yes.Let's chat more about that as well.So, you tell me more about where the role that you're in now, why?Why did you get a part of it and become a part of it?Yeah, what are you looking to achieve over the next three years?
Okay.So, in 2020, Ivor Peres, who was on the board of QMCA, who I'd worked with in the past at Tees, he rang me up and said, Chappie, we're looking for a new CEO.John Davies has just resigned.Would you be interested?I said, Yeah, sure.
It's a part-time gig.I said, yeah, sure.And that would suit well with what I'm doing.With your business as well, yeah.And so I put my name forward, had an interview, and they gave me the role.And it's been a really interesting journey.
One of the great things about the QMCA is that Every member of that QMCA, on that board, they are focused on making the industry a better place.They are focused about working collaboratively with clients.
They're focused about delivering better value for money for stakeholders and investors, be that the public sector or the private sector.And they're about making the business, the industry, a better place for the future.
We have a tagline is the QMCA is try and create a safe, rewarding, and attractive industry. Why?Well, one, we want to make sure that there are no injuries or incidents.That's an objective of every business.
Yes, as an industry, we have a way to go there, but we have made a lot of strides.We want to make it attractive and rewarding.Rewarding from when you work well, productively, etc.
you get rewarded, but we need to attract more people into our industry and we need to be able to retain them.And we can't do that without changing the culture between clients and contractor, contractor and engineer, and also the culture on site.
And that's one of the things that we're working very hard at the QMSA about.And it's one of the things that I really enjoy is that how we can work collaboratively to achieve those ends.
Yes, those companies still compete tooth and nail for jobs, certain jobs, but they do it respectively.
So, when you talk about changing the culture, what are some of the things that you think need to change?
Certainly, some of the behaviours on site need to change.We were talking just before about psychosocial hazards, the new legislation that's come in and how industry
needs to try to manage it, where a lot of those psychosocial hazards, and people go, what's psychosocial hazard?It's mental health.
A lot of those issues that create psychosocial hazards, it's a safety risk, come from third parties, particularly one union and their behavior in particular, the CFMEU.
And whilst we've got harassment, intimidation, bullying, standover tactics happening on construction sites, they are creating psychosocial hazards, mental health issues for construction workers.We need to be respectful.
Yes, you might have an agenda you want to push through, but do it respectfully.It's groups like that are like the bully boys from school who've never grown up. And they need to be held to account for their actions.
So we need to improve the culture on site because there are so many people who are enthused about construction.They get there and go, oh my God, and then run a mile and we never get them back.
Like there are a number of people in transaction management now and advisory who are ex-construction and they say, I couldn't deal with the adversarial nature. I couldn't deal with the intimidation and the bullying that happened.
So we need to cut that out of the industry.Yes, we can have some arguments or debates or whatever, but you do it respectfully.And that's what we need to change.
How do we do it, like, because I was talking to someone the other day, it was only a couple of days ago, that had people rock up to site and they were scared, like they were actually, and it was a woman, like, that I was talking to about it.
How do we combat that behavior, I guess, and combat's not the right word, but how do we deal with that behavior in a way, and what are some of the strategies that the different contractors are looking to?
Because it seems to me like we know we've got a skill shortage.We've got not only are we not attracting people to the industry, but what it then adds is extra pressure. that the current people have to try and do more with less.
So, the projects still need to be built.So, they've just got less resources.And then with BPIC, they've got rising costs as well.
What are some of the ideas that we'll... So, we've got a series of working groups in the QMCA.One is safety and one is industrial relations.They are both looking collectively, working together, looking at the psychosocial hazards.
And one of the things that we're doing is developing up a series of guidelines on how you can manage some of those risks on site.So they're the same as a safety risk when you're doing a lift.So you do your assessment.
So we're coming up with a guideline and a policy that can be implemented by all across the industry.It's consistent in how we manage that.And that will include being able to remove our people when they are at mental risk.
And so this situation is not acceptable We're done.You now need to leave.
And we will have a stepped procedure that companies can follow, and we will make every party involved in the industry, be it unions, be it clients, be it other stakeholders, and our own employees.
company's own employees, and subbies, suppliers, etc., of the behaviors that are acceptable and the behaviors that are not.And when those behaviors that are not acceptable come to the fore, then it's over.You're not welcome here anymore.
So, I think we've got to take a stand in that regard.If you've got to set the right platform and This might sound a bit out there, but my son played in a Colts rugby game last night.
And the other team were getting really in the face and there's a lot of push and shove going on.And it ended up in a bunch of malaise a couple of times.And the ref, in the end, he yellow carded someone right at the end of the game.
And I'm a rugby ref as well.And the thing is, you've got to set the standards early.If something like that happens, you pull them all in and you go, Right.That's it guys.Yes, play the game hard.
But if you want to carry on with that crap, then the next person who does, it's going to sit down for 10.And I'll keep yellow carding people until we got no one left.If you want to do that crap.But we're here to play rugby.
In the same way at work, got to set the right framework that people can work within.
We always talk about as well, so one of the things in safety they talk about is the standard you will pass is the standard you accept, right?I think it's very much the same for psychosocial safety.
It's as much a physical, so you've got physical safety and you've got mental safety.And they are one and the same.They should be treated the same.We should be doing risk assessments like we do for physical safety risks, for mental safety risks.
because we have a higher incidence of people taking their own lives in construction than any other industry.And it is due to mental health and we need to stop it.
How do we focus on or how do you see people can And I'm going to paint a picture here because I'd love your view on it.
So say you are working on site and you're working long hours because we've got a skill shortage right and then you might be doing two or three people's jobs.
I mean the reality is you don't want that to happen but if there's no one there and the project needs to be built you might be working long hours.How can people that may be listening or going through where they're working long hours,
and dealing with a lot of that sort of project pressure, how can they look after their mental well-being and stress and manage that side too?
I think they've got to use the people around them.A lot of people I know in the industry, they bottle things up.And that can be the worker on the tools all the way through to the project manager, because they think I've got to solve this.
No, you've got a group around you that you can use to bounce stuff off.The critical thing is having good people around you.And that could be workmates, it can be work, it could be friends, it can be your family.
It could be somebody, some mentor somewhere else that you can bounce stuff off.But a problem shared is a problem halved because they can give you some different ideas to look at stuff.And don't be afraid to say, I've got a bit too much.
I need some help.And that's a message to everyone in life, I think.
It's interesting, how does one person, because I think of your story, how do you go from the person that's building a Lego on your own, right?
And you know, really engineering focused and getting really excited about building something and the problem solving and being the technical expert, to then becoming somebody that's building a project. and needing other people.
Do you think sometimes it's a byproduct of the type of, well engineers, the way that, but you know.
Oh look, I was once told what do engineers use as their form of contraception?Their personalities.
I was told to have someone to ask your dad jokes, so you didn't disappoint.
And I do remember seeing this Dilbert cartoon.It's called The Knack.It's hilarious.And it's got this young Dilbert.He comes in and the mother says, I'm worried about Dilbert.He's not like other boys.He pulled apart this and created a ham radio.
And he says, oh, that's, the doctor says, oh, that's a bit of a concern.I think your son has the knack.And it's hilarious.And she says, what's the knack?And he says, the knack.
is an innate ability to understand all things mechanical and electrical and other social ineptitudes.It's something like that.And it's absolutely hilarious.And I think it's talk that sort of is what a lot of engineers are.
They are introverted people who can be very, very technical.We're taught at uni to be technical.Your four-year degree is exceptionally theorized.
At QUT, we did a hell of a lot of practical stuff too, but it is very theory-driven because you need to understand the basics.
And you've got, and I remember a really great boss when I was at GHD, and he said to me, there are four paths you can go down in your career. So, you could become a technical expert, and you'll get well recompensed for that.
You could become a project manager who understands the elements of the technical, but is very driven around that project management, and you'll be well recompensed if you go that path.You become a line manager who
And it's more of a program manager and you got various projects all over the place and yet you sort of growling them.The product manager has no people skills.He said, I think product managers do have to have people skills.
But he said the HR starts to come in at line management. And then you've got the executive management.And he said, each one of those, you don't necessarily need to move through each one of them to get higher wage.He said, choose where you want to go.
And I think that was a really good message.Then you don't necessarily need to go from being a technical to being a PM.
Yeah, you need to understand the technical elements, but if you're a technical guy, you can be a bloody good technical person and stay there.
And we shouldn't be forcing people to jump into areas where they are uncomfortable or don't want to be just because, oh, that should be your career path.Your career path should be based on where you can add value best.
And I found I could add value in different ways.
Yeah.And where do you think you fell in the end?
I bet 15 years ago, somebody asked me what I wanted to be and I said, I want to be the CEO.And that's changed.I think I've sort of moved through that technical and PM and I can still delve back into the technical and do for certain projects.
But I'm sort of in that executive line management area.And I've found that executive area is really interesting because it's all very strategic.It's about where do you want to go?How do you get there?And it's the same with the QMCA.
It's about being strategic and implementing stuff along the way through our working groups with our member companies and partners.
What are some of the changes you hope to see for the work that you're doing as well?What are some of the changes you're hoping to make over the next couple of years?
I'd like to think that the industry becomes a more attractive place to work, more attractive place for females to want to work, a more attractive place for anyone to want to work.
that we can deliver work, the projects that we have more productively, and I can get into productivity a little bit later if you like, but we need to be delivering good value for money.
We've got a hell of a lot of a pipeline coming forward in Queensland.We do a magic projects pipeline report each year, and it highlighted last year, we had $92 billion worth of work privately and publicly over the next five years.
Three years ago, that was $48 billion.So it's massively increased.The tidal wave is coming. And we can't do that if, as an industry, we're not safe, we're not productive, and we haven't got good people.And we need to train more people.
We need to look at how we school more people in.But equally, we need to be looking at how we adopt technology and innovation better.The industry has been a laggard in adopting good technology and innovation forever.And a lot of that is driven by
client specifications, et cetera, et cetera.But we've also got the contract forms that we have don't enable us to do that as well.You basically might spend three to four years doing the planning, the business case, the design.
And then they give you four to eight weeks to tender and understand all the risks on it.And by the way, you can't rely on any of that information we've worked on for the last three years, seriously.What could go wrong?
So what we need is a lot more collaborative procurement and delivery.Now, we have good pockets of collaborative delivery.
We need to enhance that further and we need to have more collaborative procurement so that we're getting the client, giving their input and the contractor and the engineers understanding and working together to understand all the risks and all the work that's happened before to be able to deliver a really good product.
Yeah.Makes sense.Chappie's productivity hacks.Tell me about them.
Oh God.Okay.One of the biggest issues in the industry is productivity.The way I view productivity is the value of work that was delivered per your input.Now, you can look at it by man hour, person hour, or by number of people employed.
And I like to look at it per person employed.So, between 2011 and 15, when we're the Energy and Resources Bank, we averaged $675,000 per person per annum as a value-added output. The last five years, 285,000 per person per annum.
A whole range of reasons.And in the last 12 months, that's dropped 10%.
I'll get to why it's dropped 10%, but between 2011 and 15, it was the energy and resources boom.So, we had the LNG plants, the calcium gas, a lot of coal projects were being done, rail. It was outside of Southeast Queensland.
We did a lot of modernization, a lot of technology and innovation was brought to the table, and it was private sector clients.Fast forward to now, predominant amount of spend is public sector.It's roads, it's transport, it's rail.
This is excluding all your public buildings and residential and that kind of stuff.This is your civil infrastructure.And we haven't taken forward the learnings and lessons.
Now, you can't modularize a road, but you can look at new innovation and stuff into bridges.You can look at new innovation into modularizing some of the processing plants.But everything's being stick built.
So, we've lost all that productivity that we gained here, and we're not deploying it over here.So, the technology and innovation that we had here, no longer being.
What we also have with the work that's underway now, particularly public sector, is that there is demand on, the client will specify, oh, well, I need X number of environmental people on site, or X number of community people on site.
Rather than, as the work demands, we bring those people in and bring them out. And I'm not saying those areas are not important, but you don't necessarily need those people on site.
So indirects on construction projects now are running at about 45% of your project cost.10 years ago, they were at 25%. So that affects your productivity as well.
And then some of the industrial conditions that are being forced on industry by government, BPIC, best practice industrial conditions, not best practices, certainly not industrial conditions.
That is dictating certain wage rates for various people in the industry, which has a huge impact.And in the document itself, it expressly says in the first page, no productivity enhancements will be considered. Right.Okay.Great.
Very unhelpful.So there's a whole range of conditions and look, I could do a podcast for about four hours on it.
However, the conditions that are in that kind of document that are unfortunately permeating into a lot of other agreements is we reduce productivity by about another 20 to 30%.
Which we can't afford to do.
We can't afford to do.When we've got so much to deliver, so if you think about the health spent, it's now $14 billion over the next five years.We've got the Olympics coming up.Now, all that's been talked about in the Olympics so far is the venues.
There is that much more infrastructure that is required to make those venues work and provide legacy for the future.We've got a massive dam safety upgrade program that is yet to be kicked off in any great way in the state.
We've probably got close to 20 dams that need to be upgraded. Legislatively, by 2035, more likely, probably push out a few more years, but that could be a $20 billion exercise.And then we've got this energy transition.
Now, the energy and jobs plan came out in 2022. and people like certain politicians like walking around with a glossy document and it said $62 billion.We did our own numbers.It was $90 billion because they'd forgotten a few things in there.
And then when you added BPIC, it's $120 billion.So we've got a huge amount of differing demands on the industry.We need to sequence it better.Rather than doing 11 hospital projects all on top of each other, why aren't we doing a couple?
at a time and then the contractors on that one moves on to the next to take the learnings.We should be modularizing all the wards on the hospitals and getting them built here.When we did Curtis Island, all the accommodation came out of Brisbane.
It was modules manufactured locally.We can do it.We can do it again.
Done it before.So, that's the kind of productivity stuff that we need to be bringing forward to be able to deliver the work and we need to efficiently plan the work and sequence it such that we're not having this boom and bust.
Because the last thing we need to be doing is replicating what Sydney did in the lead up to and after 2000.Because they had this massive build program, hit the Olympics, and nothing happened for a good half decade to nearly a decade.
Yeah, and we don't want that.
So you have a lot of passions in the industry and you've spoken about a lot of them and we talked about this before because I mentioned to you this is a question I always ask, but I'd love to understand with everything you've done so far, both in your own business and also through the QMCA, what's the legacy you hope to leave for your life's work?
And I mean both professionally and personally.So if you look at that, what's your legacy that you want to leave?
It's a tough question because I never actually thought about it, to be brutally honest.I think from the industry and from a QMCA perspective, I'm passionate and driven to see the industry succeed.
Be a great partner to clients, be that public and private sector, to be a respected industry that people want to be part of. You know, to be able to deliver the work coming forward, we need at least another 15,000 people straight away.
And if productivity keeps going the way it is, we're going to need another 25,000.So we need to be an attractive industry to get people.
So I'd love to see the industry, I'd love to see the QMCA be seen as a body and its members that are passionate about safety.
recognized as being passionate about safety, recognized as being passionate about creating a safe, rewarding, and attractive industry.And I think that's a great legacy to leave for anyone.And look, the members certainly are.
And we're driving towards that goal.And I'd love to see that as sort of some legacy for the future.
I'd like to think that we could be embracing technology and innovation far more quickly and taking clients along the journey rather than sitting there and waiting for the client to go and test something.No, no, no.
we're doing it, come on, get on board.So I'd like us to be a bit more proactive in that area.And I guess from a personal perspective, I've got two kids.I'd love to see them be able to
use their knowledge and neither of them want to be involved in engineering.It's really disappointing.
What do you think to it?My daughter is doing nursing at the moment.I love nursing.That's what my daughter wants to be.Yeah.Isabel actually wants to be a pediatrician.
original desire was.So, we'll see.Hopefully she gets there and she works hard and she is.And my son wants to be a fighter pilot.Oh, cool.So, and I keep saying, oh, look, you could also do aerospace engineering.Why would I want to be an engineer?
Why would I want to be like you?I don't want to deal with spreadsheets. But anyway, I just want to see my kids, my family do the best they can do as well.
And I think as any parent, you want to instill in your kids a desire and a passion to do what they are passionate about and keep driving towards that, whether that is nursing,
law, and I'll go sister is a lawyer, teaching, being a carpenter or a lecky or anything, you want to be passionate and engage towards what their goal is.
And continue to play sport too, because I think that's a really good avenue and outlet for people.
So good.Learned so many lessons in sports.So important for kids.
Yeah.And look, I mean, I don't know, my daughter will probably be angry with me about this, but we've been through some interesting times with our family.My daughter had cancer in year 11.
So she spent 10 months in and out of hospital doing chemo, having her knee replaced to get the cancer out of her knee.
So, family's important to anyone, and it's obviously important to me too, and my wife had a stroke at the start of last year as well.
So, being around them and being able to help them is something that I hope that my kids look back and go, Dad helped us.
Mm.I think that with what you were speaking about then, it's really interesting to see that we just never know what someone's maybe going through family-wise behind closed doors.
So I always say to people as well in business, just check on each other.Mm.Check on each other, check how you're going, and you've always had such a good support network around you professionally as well.
As well as personally with your family, so.
Yeah, and I've got a good bunch of mates who constantly through that journey that Isabel was on.And look, my wife, bore the brunt of that because she stayed in the hospital with her when she was in for treatment.
And so it wasn't easy on my wife, that's for sure.But we had really good friends and family around us who were ultra supportive.
Do you think your daughter's journey with that was part of what led to the nursing and pediatrics, having had those experiences?
I think she's gone down the nursing path to start with.Yeah, to get into that.But she's always wanted to, she's always loved babies and that kind of stuff.So that's really her passion more than anything else.
She asked me early on, what do you think I can do?And I said, you can do anything you want.You just got to put your mind to it.So whatever you are passionate and driven to do, you can do.You just got to follow that.
I think as well, children listen to what we say, but they also watch what we do.And they've watched you be passionate about what you do.And yes, okay, maybe their passion isn't engineering, sorry dad.
But they've seen you be passionate and follow something, and then they've now gone, that's what I'm going to do.I know that I'm interested in pediatrics, or I know that I'm interested in being a fighter pilot or whatever the case may be.
So, that's a huge legacy.That's a great thing.
We'll see in about 10 years.
Maybe.Yeah.Yeah.So, Rocket Round.Somebody messaged me on LinkedIn and said the Rocket Round's their favorite.So, shout out to you.It's an engineer in Mongolia that listens to the podcast.Pretty cool, hey?Yeah.
So, we're going to go into the Rocket Round.And Rocket Round is just a few fun questions as well.
Just to learn a bit more about you.So, what podcast are you listening to right now?
I've never listened to any podcasts.
I actually had to, I was driving my son to school this morning and I said, I'm going on a podcast today.I said, any tips?And he goes, oh, don't ask me.Ask Isabel.So I did.And Isabel said, don't stuff it up.
Well, good advice.Good advice.And you haven't, so you've gone fine.And coffee or wine?
Red wine?Because you said before you didn't drink coffee.
I don't drink coffee.You like hot chocolate.I do.And look, there is a reason for that.My father was the marketing manager for Coca-Cola.Oh.So I grew up with Coke.
The black stuff, not the white stuff.And mind you, the active ingredient in Coke until 1908 was cocaine.I know. And then they switch to caffeine.So, I get my caffeine through Coke.I don't know how I survive without having a Coke a day.Black Coke.
Do you still have it a Coke a day?
And do you have full sugar or no sugar?
Oh, definitely full sugar.It's got to be fully loaded.I can't drink the no sugar stuff.It just doesn't taste right.So, I've tried coffee and the only way I can do coffee is a cappuccino with about four sugars.And there's no point.
No, you can't taste the coffee anymore.I like hot chocolate, so I have hot chocolate.
If you're treating yourself.
But I do have a passion for good red wine.
Particularly Australian red wine.
And favorite holiday destination?
I'll give you a long answer on this one.So I was at a lunch number of years ago, and there were about 15, 20 people around the table.And they were asked that exact question, and they went around the table.
And all these people are going, oh, the South of France, Nice, London, New York, Paris.They got to me.And I went, Queenstown, New Zealand.And they all went, And I looked down at me and I went, have you ever been there?If you haven't, shut up.
Because it is awesome.You've got the mountains.You've got scenery.You've got every adrenaline activity you could think of doing.And you can get out of the place moderately quickly.And you've got beautiful scenery and other stuff you can go and do.
You can ski in the winter.And then you've got all the summer activities as well.So it is a place that is just awesome. years and years ago when I was at GHC, they actually asked me if I would go and set an office up in Queensland.
I was like, where do I sign?And it was on the back of a major contract that they thought they'd won.And then it fell through.So it didn't happen.
And if New Zealand tourism would like me to take that clip now for them, I'm most, most obliging because that was a really good rap for NZ.
I love music.I love NZ too.
When I was in Fortnahogan, I got to spend some time over in NZ and I loved it.Everyone was so nice.It was a really nice friendly place.
Particularly the South Island.
North Island around Auckland, not so much, but yeah, the South Island, they're fantastic.And I took, I was president of Albany Creek Junior Rugby Union and we took it around the
My son was in that group over there, so we took 40 boys on a rugby tour over to South Island, New Zealand.And the people were brilliant, amazing, really accommodating, and it was just a fantastic tour.And of course, our last stop was in Queenstown.
That's a place I would live, yeah.I'd live in New Zealand.I like New Zealand too.I'm with you.And cats or dogs?
Dogs.I won't tell you what I think of cats.
We have two dogs at the moment.What kind of dogs do you have?I've got a Covertle, who is six and a half, and I have a nearly two-year-old Border Collie.
My first dog growing up was a Border Collie.We lived in Lismore at the time and it, mum and dad got rid of Bonnie or gave her away to a farm because she was crazy. really going, yeah, just couldn't handle the small yard.
And then we had Scottish terriers growing up.And then when we got married, I got, got to get another border collie.And we got this border collie called Kip and he was amazing.And he passed away at 14.And then we got a Cavoodle.
And only in the last couple of years, we got another border collie.
We've got two dogs.We've got two gold, well, we have four, but anyway, let's just talk about the two.We have two golden retrievers and one's crazy and one's like real chilled and easy going?Yeah.Do you have one crazy dog and one chilled easy going?
Very much so.Yeah.So the cavoodle, I'll try to take him for a run, walk each morning, and we'll do five and a half, six K. And the cavoodle will go, right, we're done.I'll go and lie down.
The border collie goes, here's my ball, kick it, throw it to me for the next hour.
I'm not done.And thankfully, we've got a large yard.We've got 5,000 square meters.So she'll go unheard. some kind of bird in the backyard or go and talk to the other dogs.
But the funny thing was, we got her home at eight weeks of age and she saw our covertal and went, because we got her from a breeder from a farm, up right towards the coast from Childers.
And we got her home and she's looked at Rocco the covertal and gone, sheep, and started herding him. And we'll still, like one of my sisters has this dog, which looks like a very oversized sheep, and Bindi herds her like there's no tomorrow.Yeah.
Yeah.They can't, they've got that herding instinct, hey?
They can't get rid of it.And last question, what makes you feel like you're home?
Where I live, you sort of come up over a bit of a hill, and you go, oh yeah, this is home.And I don't know. That feeling of comfort, and I think everyone feels that when they were at home, but I've got a bit of land where I am and it's good.
You just sort of, you come home and you feel comfortable and it helps you de-stress.
It is like a different world.
When you've got acreage and you've got space, you drive home to that.It helps you shut off as well.
Yeah, it does.We lived at Kashmir for, we built out there in 2005 we moved in. And yeah, it was that far out of the city.It was 25, 30 K out of the city.
And by the time you got there, you came through one area, which is a bit of bush to get to where we were.And it was like, right, I've left the city.There's all that stuff's there.This is home.
And I think the similar thing where I go, where we are now, come up over the hill and you go, now I'm home.
Thank you so much for sharing on the podcast.You're welcome.Well, for somebody that doesn't listen to podcasts, you did a really great job and there's so much insight shared.And yeah, I really appreciate your time coming on as a guest.
Thanks for the opportunity.
Thanks for listening to Building Doors.If you've got comments or questions, send them to hello at buildingdoors.com.au.And remember to subscribe, rate and review.See you next time.
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