This podcast has bad words.Every little thing you think that you need.Every little thing you think that you need.
♪ Every little thing that's just feeding your greed ♪ ♪ Oh, I bet that you'd be fine without it ♪ You're listening to The Minimalist Podcast with Joshua Fields Milburn and TK Coleman, recorded live at Earthing Studios in sunny California.
Yes, thank you, Malabama.Hello, everybody.Today, we're talking about when it makes sense to optimize certain things. and when it's best to just throw optimization out the window.
Joining us to discuss this topic and to help answer your questions is one of the best interviewers in the world.He is the host of the Jordan Harbinger Show, Jordan Harbinger.
Coming up on this free public minimal episode, a caller has a question about some fun and creative ways to optimize her everyday chores.And then we've got a lightning round question about the joyous things in life that are beautifully inefficient.
That's followed by our Right Here, Right Now segment and a listener tip.You can check out the maximal edition of episode 464.That's the full episode where we answer three times as many questions and we dive deep into several simple living segments.
That private podcast is out right now.Patreon.com slash The Minimalists.Your support keeps our podcast 100% advertisement free because sing along at home, y'all.Advertisements suck. Let's start with our callers.
If you have a question or comment for our show, we'd love to hear from you.Our phone number is 406-219-7839 or email a voice recording from your phone to podcast at theminimalists.com.Our first question today is from Paige.
Hi, my name is Paige and I'm calling from Southern California.I'm wondering if you have any new ways that you've recently optimized your life.I've been really excited about this in my own life lately.
A couple of examples are instead of going grocery shopping once a week, I'm trying to go every other week and just buy twice the amount.
Of course, I have to consider what foods will go bad quicker than others and plan accordingly, but I just love the idea of going grocery shopping 26 times a year instead of 52 times.I would even like to get it down to just 12 times a year.
Another way I've optimized my life is whenever I've done laundry, I hang my clothes together as outfits instead of categories.I also always grab an outfit from the left side of my closet, so I'm making sure to wear all of my outfits.
It's so easy in the morning to figure out which outfit I'm going to wear because it's just the one on the left.Anyways, thanks so much for taking my call and I really enjoy all you guys do.
Now, Jordan, I wanted to start with this question because you and I were having an offline conversation when we walked away from social media earlier this year.Yeah, yeah.
And I thought what you said was so profound because we were talking about how we had reached the most people we'd ever reached last year.It was like half a billion people, technically.
But that's a vanity metric because how many of those were like eight tenths of a second they saw TK's face and they quickly scrolled away from it?As one does, yes.
And that doesn't really measure the depth of what you're doing, the significance of what you're doing.And what I was saying is we reach out to each patron who joins our Patreon and ask them, hey, how'd you hear about us?
And it was fewer than 10% of people heard about us on social media.And what you said was something fascinating.
You said, I bet it's even fewer than that because someone thinks they saw you on TikTok, but maybe they actually heard about you because of Netflix, or they listened to an episode of your podcast, or they saw something else on your blog at some point in time.
And so I wanted to start by talking about optimizing and when it is appropriate to optimize.Let's start by addressing Paige's question directly, and then we'll just flow from there.
Basically, she's saying, what are some fun and creative ways that you've optimized your life?What are your thoughts on that?
Yeah, she seems really optimized with the whole, like, I just picked the outfit on the left, and I'm like, do you never switch outfits?I won't say I waste a lot of brainpower picking out outfits, as you can see from what I'm wearing right now.
I don't get quite to that level.I would say, I mean, not that I, that I wouldn't, I would say for me, I like, you know, all that stuff you have that you want to get rid of and you think you got to sell it.
I just give it away because if you think about how much you're going to sell it for, it's almost always like pennies on the dollar, but it's,
it causes you to store it for like three more years than you would if you were just like, I know somebody who would like this.So as soon as I find somebody who's like, Oh, I wish I had radio control cars for my kid.
I'm like, here's a lot more than you bargained for.And just give it to your kid and tell him you bought it and don't even give I don't want any credit.But you have to take the whole thing like get it out of my garage now.And they're like stoked.
I never would have sold that to that person.I would have had to sell each little thing individually and have 18 people coming over from Facebook Marketplace to my garage and being like, oh, I didn't bring enough cash.
You take 20 instead of 40, like all that crap.And I'm just like, nope, ditch it.So you lose, quote unquote, a few hundred bucks.But who cares? You got rid of the thing and all of the thing.So I've started doing that.
I don't know if that's quite optimization per se, but it certainly is optimized for space.And then I try to remember how much money I lost when I'm like, I should buy camera stuff and lots of it.
I'm like, remember when you gave away $3,000 worth of shit last year? This is going to happen again.So maybe don't get the whole kit.Get the camera and like one lens.Don't get like five lenses.
And that was the thing that you told me that really stuck with me.You said, well, it depends on what you're optimizing for.Why are you using social media?
And if you're optimizing to go deep and have these deeper conversations, maybe there's a way to do that with social media. But reaching more and more and more, you're optimizing for fame.You may not be optimizing for running a business.
You may not be optimizing for getting new listeners to your podcast.What are you optimizing for?
And so what you're talking about there, if you were in debt and you really wanted to sell your things in order to pay off your debt, you're optimizing to pay off the debt.
And that might take more time and effort and all of your resources in order to get that money, right?You're optimizing for money in that scenario so you can pay off the debt.So even there, you're not optimizing for money.
That's right.This is more optimizing for sanity where I'm like, why do I keep hitting my knee on this cupboard full of stuff that I don't want in my house?I want to get rid of the cupboard.Oh, but it's full of expensive things.
I got to sell those things.No, you don't. If you're trying to get rid of the dang cupboard, man, give it to somebody else with the stuff inside it.You know, there's a, there's a hobby shop near me and I'm like, can I bring stuff?
And they're like, we can't sell it for you.I'm like, no, I'm giving this to your business.We're not going to give you store credit.I'm like, I don't care about that either.They're like so confused.Right.
I'm like, no, I'm just going to give you expensive things and then leave.I just want to get rid of this.They're like, okay.And they work.I'm like, they're, yeah, they work.And all right, fine.Weirdo.See you in 20 minutes.
I'm just like, get rid of this stuff.Get it out of here.
Now, TK, I'm the opposite from Paige.I really enjoy going to the grocery store.I probably go to the grocery store 300 times a year.And you're trying to get it up to 365.There are some days where I go twice.Like, I'm going to go buy a mango.
I will go to the local grocery store.It's walking distance from my house, where I live, up in Ojai.And I just walk there.I'll go buy a mango or a thing of blueberries, and I'll walk back home.Now, part of that is I'm optimizing for the walk.
I need a destination in mind.And so I may not be optimized in the sense that, oh, you know what?I'm only gonna do grocery shopping one time a year.I go to Costco and I buy the pallet of toilet paper and I buy the pallet of Cheetos.
And what am I optimizing for is what we come back to.
Right, it's like comparing someone who decides that they're gonna drive to work and get there in five minutes and someone who walks to work and it takes them 45 minutes.
One person is optimizing for the efficiency of getting to work as fast as possible and that's what matters to them.The other person is optimizing for the alone time, the recreation and exercise of the walk, and just the meditative experience.
And both parties are winning as long as they are defining fun in terms of what they like to do.And when I think about the heart of this question, fun and creative, Those are qualities that are very native to our humanity.
When you look at children playing, that's all they want to do is have fun and be creative and they're free.But we unlearn those natural qualities by taking on a whole bunch of compromising, self-defeating beliefs and practices.
And optimization is really about tuning in to what those things are that compromise your fun and compromise your creativity.
And then setting up the boundaries that protect that so that you can go back to doing what you never had to learn how to do, which is be you, which is always fun and creative.
Jordan, when I think about optimization, quite often we're optimizing for the things that society tells us to optimize for.You convince yourself that this is the life you want. And what does that life often look like?
Well, I mean, for me, it was like, go to school, get a job.Uh oh, no one's hiring because they don't teach you how to get a job out of college.Better go to grad school.The solution is clearly more education, not something you actually want to do.
So then I went to law school and I was like, okay, but I don't want to be a lawyer.And people are like, why are you here?And I'm like,
I don't know, I tried to get a job at Best Buy and they said no, so I signed up for $300,000 extra worth of student loans.Isn't that a natural strategy?
And then you kind of get through that and you're like, okay, I don't want to be a lawyer, got out of the law game, started to do my own thing, probably around the time you guys were even doing your thing.
And it was just, luckily, the podcast wave goes up so far, line go up.So I got lucky there.But, you know, a lot of people, well, I'm 44 now, right?So a lot of my friends I'm talking to, I'm like, how you doing?
And they're like, I'm getting divorced or whatever.I'm like, oh, okay.And when you really dive into that, some of it is, yeah, I mean, I dated her for a long time.
And then we were like, oh, we should probably get married because we've been dating a long time.And our parents wanted us to get married.And then they wanted us to have kids.And we were kind of on the fence, but then everybody told us to have kids.
And I'm like, so you basically like, got married to somebody, had children with them, and then you were like, wait, I didn't really want to do that stuff and not with that person.And now you're stuck.
I mean, you know, they love their kids, I'm sure, but that's a hell of a wake up call and a hell of a realization.And I think a lot of it is you lie to yourself for so long about what you want out of life that you convince yourself.
But then one day when you're 44, 45, whatever, 55, you wake up and you buy a convertible and it doesn't fix everything.And you're like, oh shit.
Get a divorce now or whatever.It's the more that you were talking about there, right?And it's the more that's been handed to you by society, peers, advertisers, etc.
You buy this thing, whether it's the convertible or you get into this relationship or you have this house.And this is especially true when we're in difficult times, like the marriage is not going well.You know how we'll fix it?
Let's have a kid together.Have a kid, yes.Or another kid. Or we'll buy a house.Or we will get the car.I'll buy you this extravagant vacation.Of course, this huge purchase will fix it.But of course, it doesn't, right?
And so we're not optimizing in any meaningful way.We're simply wallpapering over the problems that are preexisting.
Have y'all heard that sort of thing, like the more expensive the wedding is, the quicker they're going to get divorced.And there's probably data on this.I know, isn't that terrible?Have a cheap wedding.That's the moral of the story.
But there's people who say that all the time.They're like, look at these two celebrities.It's like $3 million wedding.And you're like, uh, 18 months.
Well, in that situation, you're optimizing more for the marriage or rather for the wedding than the marriage itself.Like you're optimizing for a party, not a partner.
Sure.Oh, I like what you did there.That was clever.
TK, I'm wondering if there are any areas in your life in which you have optimized where you find like, I really, I really benefit from optimizing these areas of my life.
I'm, I'm ruthlessly minimalistic. about everything that gets in the way of time to read, time to take walks, time to hang out with my wife, time to pray, things like that.
And so I'm very sensitive to what ceases to be fun for me or for what gets in the way of fun.And what's funny about it is that sometimes leads to apparent inefficiencies in other areas of your life.
Oh man, there are just things that I have to be content with being mediocre at.Knowing that I'm never gonna be competitive at this.I'm never gonna be economically valuable at that.
I'm never gonna be admired for my ability to talk about that because I want to really pour myself into the three or four things that really interest me.
And that can be tough when you're living in a chase the algorithm world where your relevance, your significance is only as good as your ability to pontificate on the latest trend. and to actively choose to be irrelevant to most of that?
Nope, sorry, I don't even know what Pope Francis said recently, so I am not even knowledgeable enough to be mad about it or have an opinion about it or tell you why this side or that side is wrong.
Oh, sorry, I didn't even pay attention to what either of them said, right?And that can make you very irrelevant.Quick role play on that.
So let's say someone comes to you and they're like, but don't you feel like that's just irresponsible? Don't you think it's more responsible to be an informed citizen of your country?
Well, I don't feel irresponsible, but I'm curious what's making you ask me that question.What is it about it that seems irresponsible to you?And also, when you say informed citizen, like, how are you defining that?
Like what metrics, what standards, what topics? You know, is Shakespeare too old?Is literature part of what it means to be informed?Do I have to know hip-hop?Do I have to know jazz?
What if I know everything about music in the last six months, but I know nothing about any music from the 50s?Do I get to be informed?What if all the writers I read are from this country?Am I informed?
What if I don't know anything about any writers that weren't born in America?Am I informed?Usually when people play the, but you gotta be informed card,
What they mean is you got to be knowledgeable about the particular set of trends, the particular set of political concerns, the particular set of fears and social causes that I personally am dialed into.
Because everyone who says that has tons of things that I would love to talk with them about that they aren't even interested in and they'd fall asleep in 10 seconds once the conversation started because they don't even want to be informed about that.
They just want you to agree with them too.
They don't want a different opinion.They're like, hold on, wait, no, you don't know about this.You got it.And then you're like, well, I kind of think this other way.And then it's like, well, hold on.
I thought it was bad when you didn't know enough about this.Now you're telling me you disagree with me.
That's not going to work.Yeah.Yeah. That's the thing I love about TK is he can get really curious the way that he just did without judging the other person, saying, well, actually, no, I'm right because I'm not tuning into the news or whatever.
But he gets really curious and asks those questions that help us better understand that, oh, wow, my judgments may be in error.
And by the way, that's relevant to this question about optimizing your life.I think it's very easy to look at someone who optimizes differently from you and then to judge that or to dismiss that as disgusting because that's not your way.
In fact, one of the interesting areas where you see this is with productivity hacks. I happen to know people who are so crazy that they really get excited from productivity hacks.
I know people that are hyper-efficient, they love productivity, and they enjoy their lives.And I might look at them and say, man, I could never enjoy being like that.What a miserable life for me. but it's a very happy life for them.
And so just because I'm not intense doesn't mean that you don't find great joy in intensity.Or just because I'm really playful and like to laugh all the time and watch every Key & Peele skit doesn't mean that that's something that you enjoy doing.
And so I think it's so important, especially in conversations about minimalism, where we don't define words in such a way that makes someone a bad minimalist, an unworthy minimalist, or a bad person to go even further.
just because they optimize and simplify in ways that are different from us.
Yeah, I mean, I've never had zero inbox, I shouldn't say never, I rarely have zero inbox and I've recently just been like, I have to give up on this.I'm not gonna do it.
Because otherwise you're taking, you're like, you realize you're taking that time away from like your kid who wants to go for a bike ride.And you're like, no, I have to answer strangers on the internet that wrote to me six weeks ago, right now.
I have to do it now.And it's just like my own, like, I don't know, not really OCD, but sort of like the pull of the inbox.And it's just like, no one, I should just delete all this and be like, or mass reply.
Hey, I tried to reply to these and then realized I was never going to do it.This is your response.If it's really important, send it again.Nobody's going to send it again.It's just people being like, Oh, I like your podcast.Thanks for doing it.
And I just, there's, but now there's 500 of them.And I'm like, I can't, I can't even look at this without feeling like sweating.
I feel the same way as both of you in the sense that there's this life of ceaseless optimization just for the sake of optimizing that then becomes the life of a machine, not a human.However, there are different tolerance levels.
And for me, it's about being actually less optimized.I think years ago, I read this article from Leo Babauta, our friend, and he was talking about how he... He unautomates all of his bills, so he doesn't have anything on auto pay.
And the reason he does this is he wanted to be super intentional.Then he unautomated or unoptimized his laundry.Even though they had a washer and dryer in his home in San Francisco, he started washing his shirts and pants in the sink.
And the reason he did that, and I wouldn't want to do it personally, but I respect the fact
that he's like, okay, I'm approaching this with a, well, he runs a website called Zen Habits, with a Zen-like approach to, I'm actually doing the laundry when I'm doing the laundry.I'm actually paying the bills.
I'm being present when I'm doing these things.I think about my own life, the way that I optimize most is I pretty much dress the same every single day.
I noticed I didn't get the memo on the black shirt thing.You're close enough, though.
I'm close enough, yeah.It's gray, and you have a collar, and it looks really nice. We're all barefoot here, it's fine.
And so when we walked away from social media, it was about, it was an experiment not to fully deprive ourselves because we didn't believe in renouncing the thing either.It was about understanding by creating some distance away from that.
And I imagine there's a world in which we might go back to it and use it appreciably differently. There's also a world in which it doesn't make sense to go back at all.
Our live events, more people have been showing up, so in a weird way, we've optimized for more people at the live events because it's almost like they don't get to see us as much because we're not in their feed every single day.
So the question ends up being, what are you optimizing for?Paige, I'd love to send you a copy of the Minimalist Rulebook.It's 16 rules for living with less, but really these aren't rules, they're boundaries.
And you can download it for free over theminimalists.com.Just click on the resources page there at the top.We have a bunch of free resources there.If you want the audio book version, we'd be happy to send that to you as well.
And since you are in Southern California, speaking of our live events, our next Sunday symposium, Nicodemus will be there October 27th. We'd love for you to attend that as well.We just released a few extra tickets for that.
You can find the tickets over on the Minimalists events page, theminimalists.com.Click events at the top.We're going to be filming this one as well for our next documentary.So if there are tickets left, make sure you grab them now.
They are free tickets.Before we get back to our callers, Malabama, what time is it?
You know what time it is.It's time for the lightning round, where we answer the Patreon community chat's question of the week.
Yes, indeed.Now, Jordan, I don't know if you remember this, but during the lightning round, we have 60 seconds to answer some questions with a short, shareable, less than 140 character response.We just call them minimal maxims.
You don't have to worry about that at all, though. We already put our pithy answers together beforehand.You can find this episode's maxims in the show notes over at theminimalists.com slash podcast and every Minimal Maxim ever at minimalmaxims.com.
We'll also deliver our weekly show notes directly to your inbox, including seven new maxims every Monday for free.
If you sign up for our email newsletter at theminimalists.email, we'll never send you spam or junk or ads, but we will start your week off with a dose of simplicity. Alabama, what is the question of the week this week?
What is one thing in your life that is beautifully inefficient?
So this was sort of the opposite of optimizing.How do I make my life beautifully inefficient?I talked earlier about, well, I like to go to the grocery store all the time.It's because I enjoy the process of going there and getting only what I need.
If I went there for two things, I'm just going to get those two things.I enjoy the walk And so maybe I'm not optimized in the sense that I'm only going every once in a while.
But if you only want to go to the grocery store 12 times a year, as Paige does, that's great.She's actually optimizing for something else other than grocery shopping.
So before we get to our pithy answers, let's hear how some of our listeners answered this question.
Ashley and Isabella both said knitting their own sweaters is beautifully inefficient.Yarn costs just as much as a sweater would, not to mention all the time they spend knitting, but it's so incredibly rewarding.
Now, TK, it reminds me of this maxim you sent me.You said true value isn't measured in speed, but in depth.
What do you mean by that? I love that.It makes me think about this commentary on Vedic texts, speaking of Brahman, it says, standing still, he overtakes those who move swiftly.
There's something powerful about not needing to go fast, not needing to be in a hurry, not needing to get it done as quickly as possible, that allows you to see deeply, feel deeply, and be present.
And for me, this would not be the way I want to optimize my life, Jordan.Obviously, I don't want to knit my own sweaters.If I need a sweater, I would prefer to buy it.But it doesn't mean that I pathologize knitting.
Yeah.Oh, sorry.Go ahead.Can I contribute?I wasn't sure.I didn't strip my thing earlier.Didn't do my homework.Um, yeah, I, I love to go somewhere and get dropped off there.And then I'm like, I'll walk home.
I'm like, whoever drops me off is like, it's like six miles away from your house.I'm like, yeah, I did that math before we left.
I'm going to walk home and then on my way home I'm like just really either reading or just totally present walking and chilling or I'll make phone calls and stuff like that to friends and catch up because now I have all this time and people are always like how you keep in touch with so many people you read so many books I'm like yeah you
You literally just get really inefficient somewhere like traveling and walking from the barber six miles away from your house and then you walk back and you have nothing but time and you block it off on the calendar, right?
So nobody's like, oh, I got to schedule a meeting.You'll be back in five minutes.No, I'm walking back.Why do you do that to yourself?One, I got a great tan.Thank you. I'm in decent shape for it, but the time is the real reward, the alone time.
You're making space for the things that interest you.What does Susan have to say?
She said, I have a habit of staying up late reading a good book when I know I need sleep instead.It may be inefficient, but I rarely regret doing it.
On page three, we're actually going to talk about the perils of trying to over optimize your sleep.So we'll get back to that.What did Derek say?
Derek said, I still shoot and develop 35mm film, and it's a beacon of light for me in such a tech-heavy world.
Sometimes the process from start to end can be exhausting and inefficient, and I'll find myself questioning if the juice is worth the squeeze.But each time I pull the reel of film from the development tank, I am reminded of the magic.
There's something precious about having that limited capacity because on our phone we have a functionally unlimited number of photos.
I learned this from my good friend, he's a photographer, his name's Adam, and he was switching over to 35 millimeter because he said there was something about being intentional with that photo because I didn't wanna waste every photo.
I'd take 100 different photos of this glass of water or something.I'm gonna take one photo.But then I realized you could also apply that to the digital world. I do that with my iPhone now.
If I take a photo and, oh, my thumb was in it, that's totally fine.That's part of the charm.
You know, my goddaughter is in town right now and we're just bringing the little baby everywhere and we have a Polaroid camera that my sister-in-law brought with her.
And it's so perfect for taking pictures because what you notice is, number one, you never have your thumb in the photo. because you have a finite number of pictures you can take.
And when you have to make things count, it's remarkable how good you become instantly at making things count.And the pictures just matter so much more.Something that you can hold in your hand, something that you can look at.
It's not so efficient that it becomes cheap, that it becomes just a meaningless trinket.And so I really relate to that one. Elise had this to say.
My delicious homemade sourdough loaves are beautifully inefficient.It takes a long time to make them and they're eaten up by my family in no time, but I wouldn't do it differently since it's so delicious and fun.
Jordan, I think that's one of these areas where it's like, of course, I enjoy some optimizing for my interests.Sure.And so you might be super interested in making sourdough bread or eating sourdough bread.
And that's maybe not as efficient as just going to the local corner store and buying a loaf of Wonder Bread.But you're actually getting something that is far more high quality because it is inefficient.Yeah.
Yeah, the photography thing rings true.I was talking, my friend Chase Jarvis is like this well-known photo guy.He started a company called Creative Live and like ruined his life with it, as people who start companies often do.
But one of the things he told me, because I was like, oh, I got a camera and I wanna, he told me, you know, when you got the 35 millimeter film, that's like a dollar per photo.
So you're not taking 100 photos of the, like, you're conscious of the fact, you got 40 shots in there that you brought to Alaska. you're not getting more film.And if you do, it's going to be way super expensive.You have to carry it with you.
So maybe they have a digital camera for like the real stuff where they really like Nike's like, yeah, cute film.No, but we want, we want the real thing.But when you're doing it for yourself, when it's art, it
it almost pays to be inefficient because you really do have to go, maybe this isn't the, let me try this other angle or like get creative with stuff.Cause yeah, one, if when you're young, it's a buck each that adds up fast.
And two, if you've carried it in your backpack, when it's gone, it's gone.So I like that kind of thing.I like to apply that in other areas of life.
Although I will say photography is really like that because it is the thing you're taking a photo of is ephemeral in nature.Right.And that's kind of unique in some way.
Alright, well, you can read dozens of other listener responses in the Patreon community chat.How about you, listeners?What's one thing in your life that is beautifully inefficient?Let us know in the comments.Okay, give me something pithy, TK.
What's one thing in your life that is beautifully inefficient?
What is sacred isn't hurried, it's held.So making love, making music, the kinds of things that require you to hold a body or hold a tune, you don't want to rush those things, right?You want to be present, you want to enjoy it.
But the challenge is we live in a world where there is always someone somewhere that just wants you to hurry up. Because there's a way in which they think you ought to be fulfilling your potential.
A way in which they think you ought to be a little more productive.And it can be tough, but you have to ground yourself in an awareness of what really makes you come alive so that you can exercise the courage to do those things like make love.
like make time, like make music, that aren't efficient or optimal, at least on the surface, but they make you the kind of person who when you show up, you actually get to show up as you.
Jordan, when you listen to podcasts, what speed do you listen to them at?
I am not a minimalist on the speed of podcasts.Yeah, it depends actually.Some are, if I'm just trying to get through it and it's like, I'm prepping for another interview, that is on 2.5.
But if it's, if I'm going to sleep or I'm trying to actually enjoy it, it's I'll one exit.Even Sam Harris, I'll one exit.
People are like, what are you doing? You know what's fascinating about that is I heard there was a time when Netflix was talking about putting that on their streaming service, right?
And there were a lot of filmmakers who were like, you're ruining our films by making it too... Imagine watching, whatever, The Sopranos, but at 2X, right?If the point of it is just to get through it, you're missing the beauty in the art.
Now, sometimes there's just information where it's like, I want to consume this information, and so I'm going to listen to it at the speed at which I can optimally consume that information.Obviously, you're not going to listen at 10x speed.
At some point, there's a diminishing return.Yeah.
Yeah, you're right.If it's, if it's information I need and I need to get 18 hours of content done in eight hours in terms of putting it in my brain, that's we're, we're, we're three X-ing it.
But yeah, nobody, I don't think it's good for you to be like, I'm going to relax.Let me buzz through three hours of content in 45 minutes.Cause that's inherently your brain is working too fast.
And to think that your brain is going to work faster than Sam Harris or whatever is like a pretty ambitious flex.
Well, here's my pithy answer, TK.Productivity is camouflage for the anxiety of being alone in an empty room.Oh, dang.I think sometimes we try to be productive because it seems virtuous.Keep my hands moving.I am busy.
It's one of the things that we often talk about when someone says, oh, what are you up to?Oh, I've just been so busy lately.And that's fine.
Yeah, having a full calendar because you're really compelled to do the things you're doing or am I just busy for the sake of being busy?Am I camouflaging my own anxiety?
Am I wallpapering over that anxiety because I'm terrified of being alone in an empty room?
Yes, correct.Yeah.Somebody was like, you need to work less.And I was like, no, I'll go insane.Work is what I that's like my home base for covering up my burgeoning midlife crisis right now.I'm not going to stop.
But I do enjoy it and I find purpose in it. I do think, though, that it's real easy to use work to mask other bad things in your life.Like, oh, you're kind of being a crappy dad?
Work more, and then you can lie to yourself and say you're doing it for your kids.I talk to guys all the time, and they're like, yeah, I'm going to this, I'm going to that.I'm like, do you have kids?Oh, yeah.
Well, they're not going to see you for like three weeks.Yeah, but I just keep telling myself I'm doing it all for them.I'm like, I don't think they are going to care about that at all.When you die and leave them with $13 million instead of three.
They're not going to be like, yeah, he was gone a lot, but it was so worth it because this boat is awesome.
TK, can you think of any other ways that we wallpaper over that anxiety?You mean like other ways besides busyness?So what types of productivity, like working in general, is societally accepted? Obviously, there are ways that are not accepted.
You know, alcoholism is a way that we often cover up our anxiety.It's just, we call it workaholism versus alcoholism.One of them is prize will literally put you on a pedestal.The other will put you in some sort of class or will demean you for it.
Amusement. When we amuse ourselves with everything that we view when we scroll, it gives us two advantages, two distinct ways to hide.
Number one, we become at a certain level a little more interesting because isn't it really interesting that I can update you on the latest controversy or the latest bit of gossip?I'm almost never the uninteresting person at a party. Right?
I always got something up that you want.Hey, have you guys heard about what she said?Have you guys heard about what happened to him?Oh, so-and-so was going down.Really?What happened?
So I get to be interesting and I get to cover up my emptiness, my anxiety in a way that makes me more socially valuable.But also I get to simulate all of the emotional experiences that would come from having a real adventure.
I'm getting worked up, I'm going up, I'm going down, I'm experiencing the roller coaster of emotion, all from the comfort of my couch, only moving my thumb as I scroll when to have a real life, I got to try to master something, I got to try to confront something, face something or engage something.
And so amusing ourselves to death, so to speak, shout out Neil Postman, amusing ourselves to death is a very comfortable and popular way of covering it up. That's insightful.
I don't get invited to parties, so I don't really have that problem, but I can relate a little bit to wanting to be in the know to seem interesting or whatever.
Luckily, I've learned a long time ago to replace that with reading a lot of really good books, and it turns out that old knowledge is just as interesting as new is more interesting, frankly.
than new knowledge and really well-baked ideas that have been put into a book by somebody who's actually thought about it for a long time is much better than here's a tweet by somebody who just was like on the toilet and had a thought.
So you're much better off consuming something where it's like here's the entire kind of everything history of this one event.
that's been really well-researched, as opposed to like, here's an article on BuzzFeed that sort of has some stuff that maybe is wrong, but whatever, and it was written by AI.Right, right.
And what you're really talking about is going deep, like the nutritional value of the information that we take in versus just snacking on info all day, amusing ourselves to death.
Bama, I'm wondering, from a woman's perspective, is there any way that you paper over that anxiety that you might feel with some sort of activity?
Oh my stars.Yes.Like my default is either workaholism or caregiving.I really lean into taking care of everybody else around me to a point of my own detriment and like I will get to the end of the day and I am too tired to put away laundry.
I'm too tired to cook dinner.I have girl dinner, which is usually like chips and dip and like a banana. And it's just none of it makes sense.
And that's why I'm curious, like when I hear Jordan talk about like checking in with yourself and going, wait, am I just overworking myself as an excuse?Or am I actually doing this for my kid?
I'm really curious to hear about like, what is your governor that kind of clues you in of like, hey, I'm doing too much to a point of diminishing returns.
Because when I get in like that, if I come home at 3.30 in the afternoon, and I am so exhausted, I can't move
because I've done so much cognitive or physical stuff, trying to over optimize and make sure I go to the grocery store because it's on the way to the studio this way.
And then I grab the dog food because it's easier to grab that and $20 cheaper than just having it mailed to my apartment and then go up four flights of stairs with 60 pounds of that and cat litter.
And like I will over optimize myself to my own detriment and just collapse.And then I'm useless until the next day.Like how do you keep yourself from going too far with that?
Yeah.Well, I mean, first of all, I'm from a position of privilege.I don't need to like, if somebody says, you should write a book, I go, do I want to do that?And they go, well, you're going to make this much money doing it.
I can now, luckily after, you know, being in business for 18 years, be like, I don't need that.So I'm not going to do it.And my agent hates me.She's like, I wanted a house in Nantucket and you're going to take a vacation instead.
He's actually, his vacation's in Nantucket.I'm sorry, I'm looking at houses in Nantucket right now that you can't afford because I didn't write a book and you didn't get a commission on it.
No, it's really just like, I say no to a lot of stuff and for that reason, and I'm able to do that, which again is a position of privilege.Not everybody has the ability to go to their boss.You know, I don't want that promotion, but thank you.
It's really hard to say no.Most people can't do that.Yeah.
So the saying no thing is something that everyone can do at some level.We're often saying yes to the things that punish our future selves.Totally.
And so if I say yes to this today and in a vacuum, it makes sense to say yes to it because I'm really just putting off the no for six months or whatever.Yes.And then as six months rolls around, I'm like, why did I ever say yes to that?
So my friend Dan Ariely, he writes all these books like Predictably Irrational, he studies behavioral economics, right?
He's this sort of brilliant prof. He said if you're thinking about something and you're on the fence about doing it, and it's like in six months or whatever, pretend it's on Tuesday. and then see if you still say yes.
Because if it's like tomorrow or the next day or whatever, three days from now, do you really want to go to Boston for that conference?You were fine with it when it was in May, but now it's next week.No, I don't want to do that.That sounds miserable.
So you say you just, then you don't have to change your mind or like make up some excuse as to why you can't do it.You're like, no, I don't want to do it.It's too, you just really can pretend it is right on the heels.
And because that's what always happens, right?You look at your calendar and you go, oh, that thing is, it's now, it's not tomorrow anymore.It's like, it's here.Crap. I never thought this day would arrive.
And you're much worse off by saying yes right now and then canceling on them.
Because then you're kind of a jerk maybe for like bailing on the thing or they saved you a ticket or you were supposed to speak there.And now it's like, well, he's unreliable.But if you say no right away, they're like, OK, next year maybe.
Probably not, but thanks.Well, that's hard with the things that you can't say no to.Like, eventually my dog is going to run out of kibble and I'm going to need to buy more.Like these things that are processes that are built in.
Like, do you ever approach them like, just how do you eat an elephant one bite at a time?Is it a lot of, for you, do you sit down and kind of plan ahead of time of like, here's what my week looks like, here's what my month looks like.
Are you a time blocking person? Oh, yes, I would love to make time-blocking work for me.I haven't gotten there yet, but I have faith.I appreciate calendar work.
Tell me about that, because, yeah, I'm the exact opposite.I know you are.I just don't have anything on my calendar.
Yeah, that's cool, too, by the way.The reason I do it is not because I'm, like, totally anal retentive about my schedule.Well, yes, I am totally anal retentive about my schedule now.
But the reason is because before, when it was like, just do whatever I needed, my business was not doing well, right?So I just, this is a coping strategy.But when I go on vacation, I'm like, delete everything.
And it's like, oh, these are just your normal lunch hour.It's your normal time.I'm like, I don't want the thing popping up on my watch and or whatever, but I still have to have my phone so I can like know where I'm physically located or something.
So I turn off all that stuff because otherwise it you know what it feels like to have 10 appointments in a day.It's miserable.When I'm sitting down, I look at the calendar and I don't need the reminders necessarily.It's that
What it does is it helps me stop procrastinating on things that I need to do.So if somebody's like, hey, Jordan, do you want to do this thing today?It's going to take 30 minutes.If there's a 30 minute thing, I'll put it in there.
But if I say yes to that, and there's no time for it, now it's like, oh, well, my workday was supposed to end at five, but now it's got all these things inserted in there.So it ends at seven.Well, that sucks.
Or something takes a really long time, but you're like, I'm just going to put it on a to do list.Okay, fine.But now you have 10 things on your to do list. and each one takes an hour, now you have a 10-hour workday.
Well, not if you put it in the calendar and you're like, this is for sure gonna take an hour.Oops, I'm out of time.Guess this has to go to next week.
So what it does is, when I move something, it moves on the calendar in the block of time that it's gonna take.And sometimes you miss, you kind of underestimate or overestimate the amount of time, but whatever.
The, what this does for you is it blocks off your time and it keeps it safe.And what you don't end up with is like, Oh, I didn't get all this stuff done on Thursday and Friday.
It's like, guess I'm going to do it on Saturday, which now you have no weekend because you're, and then usually what people are inserting into your calendar is like, just need a quick roundup with 20 of us on zoom where you don't say anything and take no notes.
And you're like, oh, how about no?How about never again?
No standing meetings.That stuff is, it can be really helpful when you're working on it, collaborating on a short term project together, when it just becomes this thing that goes on in perpetuity, that becomes a problem.
I'd like to wrap this up by saying to Paige from earlier, the question from earlier is, there are always ways to optimize even more.If there's a way to get it out of your life altogether, that might be the most optimal way to do it.
So something like grocery shopping, guess what?You don't ever have to go to the grocery store ever again if you're willing to pay a delivery service to deliver your groceries.
And a lot of grocery stores now will just deliver them for free beyond a certain threshold.And my question for anyone listening to this would be, where else in your life does it feel like, I'd love to just get that out of the way?
What would it look like if you completely removed that from your life, but you still had the benefits of it in your life? That's the end of page one.We're just getting started.
We have a gang of callers to talk to still, but real quick for right here, right now, here's one thing that's going on in the life of the minimalist.Many people call into the show and they ask for decluttering tips.
We put together 30 different decluttering videos as a free resource.You can download on our website, theminimalists.com.Just click the resources page there at the top, and you can download 30 different decluttering videos.
So it might have something to do with the out in the open rule, or maybe you have the budgeting rules that we have for decluttering.
There's a bunch of different ways that you can declutter your home, declutter your finances, declutter your life, and maybe that's a great way for you to optimize.
Have you heard about the poop rule for decluttering?
Have you heard about this?
Yeah, hear me out.It's the poop rule.If this had poop on it, would you wash it off or get rid of it?
We call this the spontaneous combustion rule, but I like this even more, the poop rule, because
With spontaneous combustion, you can hold any item and it's like, if this were to spontaneously combust, would I replace it or would I feel a sense of relief?
And if this has a piece of crap on it, maybe it has turned into a piece of crap and I'm not going to hold on to a piece of crap.
And if you have kids, this is going to happen all the time.You get plenty of chances to actually practice this particular
And you haven't gotten rid of any of the kids just yet.
The kids you usually wash off, but there are a lot of things where I'm like, you know what?
Head on over to the resources page, theminimalists.com.We have 30 commercial free videos for you over there that you can download for free.Malibam, what else you got for us?
Here's a minimalist insight from one of our listeners.
Hi Josh, TK, Malabama, and the rest of the Minimalist team.My name's Frankie.I'm a Patreon subscriber from Kent in the UK.
I don't think I've heard anyone talk about this before, so I thought I'd give it a go, but I have a listener tip around periods.
It's been about two years now since I've been looking at trying to reduce the amount of stuff that I need for my period each month and also the anxiety and the stress that comes with potentially not having the right stuff at the right time when you need it, having to sneak things to the toilet in order to change,
or just the stress of accidentally leaking and messing up your clothes or messing up the bed etc.Me personally, I found really great value in using a moon cup and using period pants.These are all things that I can wash and reuse every month.
And they're things that I can prepare on my body so I don't have to take them with me, so I don't have to worry about forgetting them, etc.And it's been something that has really, really reduced my whole stress around periods each month.
It's been fantastic, actually.Thank you so much for everything you do and I hope that helps some of you female listeners.
Frankie, thank you so much for that optimized comment.I literally have nothing to add to that topic. Although Malabama does, we'll talk about that on page two.
For anyone else who has a listener tip or insight about this episode, leave a comment on Patreon or YouTube, or better yet, send a voice memo to podcast at theminimalists.com so we can feature your beautiful voice on the show.
All right, that's the first 33% of episode 464.We'll see you on Patreon for the full maximal edition with Jordan Harbinger, which includes answers to a bunch more questions.
Questions like, how can I be honest about my checkered past without scaring off potential new partners? What do you do when your partner doesn't find value in minimalism?
And how can I reframe my life so that I live with more wonder and awe and curiosity, just like TK Coleman?Plus a million more questions and simple living segments over on The Minimalist Private Podcast.
We also have an outstanding home tour this week from one of our listeners.Visit patreon.com slash The Minimalist or click the link in the description to subscribe and get your personal link.
so that our weekly maximal episodes play in your favorite podcast app.You also gain access to all of our podcast archives all the way back to episode 001.By the way, Patreon is now offering free trials.
So if you'd like to test drive our private podcast, you can join for seven days for free.Big thanks to Jordan Harbinger for joining us today.We'll put a link to his show, The Jordan Harbinger Show, in the show notes.
You can find that wherever you listen to podcasts.Also, we talked to him on the private podcast today about his networking course, which is absolutely free.There's no upsells or anything like that.It's called Six Minute Networking.
It talks about building some habits and routines into your life in just six minutes a day.That seemed to be really helpful for him.We'll put a link to that in the show notes as well. That is our minimal episode for today.
Big thanks to Earthing Studios for the recording space.On behalf of Ryan Nicodemus, TK Coleman, Malabama, Post Production Peter, Spire Jeff and Spire Dave, AB, Savvy D and the rest of our team.I'm Joshua Fields-Mulburn.
If you leave here with just one message, let it be this.Love people and use things because the opposite never works.Thanks for listening, y'all.
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